Wikipedia:WikiProject Christianity/Noticeboard

Welcome to the Christianity Noticeboard This page serves to coordinate the various discussions taking place throughout the Christianity-related project talkpages. Even though , there are numerous Christianity-related projects, with many different conversations going on at the same time. This Noticeboard hopes to achieve some kind of order in keeping track of the various goings-on. You are welcome to add to the discussion.

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Today's featured articles

10 Nov 2024 – Justus (talk · edit · hist) will be Today's Featured Article; see blurb

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28 Oct 2024 – Amalric of Nesle (talk · edit · hist) was nominated for DYK by Surtsicna (t · c); see discussion
15 Oct 2024 – Church of the East in Sichuan (talk · edit · hist) was nominated for DYK by Uriel1022 (t · c); see discussion
12 Oct 2024 – Helmut Bauer (bishop) (talk · edit · hist) was nominated for DYK by Gerda Arendt (t · c); see discussion
10 Oct 2024 – Samuel Lander (talk · edit · hist) was nominated for DYK by PCN02WPS (t · c); see discussion
10 Oct 2024 – St Mary's Church, Chislehurst (talk · edit · hist) was nominated for DYK by Cardofk (t · c); see discussion
09 Oct 2024 – The Children's Book of Virtues (talk · edit · hist) was nominated for DYK by Slgrandson (t · c); see discussion
30 Aug 2024 – Manhood: The Masculine Virtues America Needs (talk · edit · hist) was nominated for DYK by Bobby Cohn (t · c); see discussion

Articles for deletion

01 Nov 2024 – Francis Durning (talk · edit · hist) was AfDed by Traumnovelle (t · c); see discussion (1 participant)
30 Oct 2024 – Christian Brothers' College, Boksburg (talk · edit · hist) was AfDed by JMWt (t · c); see discussion (1 participant)
26 Oct 2024 – Joy Deep as Sorrow (talk · edit · hist) was AfDed by I dream of horses (t · c); see discussion (0 participants)
26 Oct 2024 – GreenPark Christian Academy (talk · edit · hist) was AfDed by Hog Farm (t · c); see discussion (2 participants)
25 Oct 2024 – Jayson Sherlock (talk · edit · hist) was AfDed by Graywalls (t · c); see discussion (6 participants; relisted)
17 Oct 2024 – Scars to Prove It (talk · edit · hist) was AfDed by Bastun (t · c); see discussion (8 participants; relisted)
17 Oct 2024 – Imago Amor (talk · edit · hist) was AfDed by Bastun (t · c); see discussion (5 participants; relisted)
10 Oct 2024 – Kingsley Okonkwo (talk · edit · hist) was AfDed by Vanderwaalforces (t · c); see discussion (4 participants; relisted)
21 Sep 2024 – Helaman Jeffs (talk · edit · hist) was AfDed by CFA (t · c); see discussion (7 participants; relisted)
24 Oct 2024 – Priesthood Sunday (talk · edit · hist) AfDed by Flounder fillet (t · c) was closed as delete by DragonflySixtyseven (t · c) on 31 Oct 2024; see discussion (4 participants)

(11 more...)

Categories for discussion

29 Oct 2024 – Category:Churches in Sussex (talk · edit · hist) was CfDed by Fayenatic london (t · c); see discussion
18 Oct 2024 – Category:Calvinist and Reformed religious workers (talk · edit · hist) was CfDed by Humpser (t · c); see discussion
18 Oct 2024 – Category:LGBTQ Calvinist and Reformed Christians (talk · edit · hist) was CfDed by Humpser (t · c); see discussion
18 Oct 2024 – Category:Former Calvinist and Reformed Christians (talk · edit · hist) was CfDed by Humpser (t · c); see discussion
18 Oct 2024 – Category:Converts to Calvinism (talk · edit · hist) was CfDed by Humpser (t · c); see discussion
18 Oct 2024 – Category:Calvinist and Reformed anti-apartheid activists (talk · edit · hist) was CfDed by Humpser (t · c); see discussion
18 Oct 2024 – Category:Calvinist and Reformed Christians by nationality (talk · edit · hist) was CfDed by Humpser (t · c); see discussion
18 Oct 2024 – Category:Calvinist and Reformed Christians by denomination (talk · edit · hist) was CfDed by Humpser (t · c); see discussion
18 Oct 2024 – Category:Calvinist and Reformed Christian socialists (talk · edit · hist) was CfDed by Humpser (t · c); see discussion
18 Oct 2024 – Category:Calvinist and Reformed Christians by century (talk · edit · hist) was CfDed by Humpser (t · c); see discussion

(18 more...)

Redirects for discussion

11 Sep 2024 – Hkbu (talk · edit · hist) →Hong Kong Baptist University was RfDed by Rusalkii (t · c); see discussion

Christianity

Francis Durning

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WP:BIO1E the only reason this article exists is because of the allegations of sexual abuse: [1] no notability otherwise and coverage is more about the Catholic Church's role than Durning himself Traumnovelle (talk) 03:43, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Christianity and New Zealand. Traumnovelle (talk) 03:43, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
DELETE for now UzbukUdash (talk) 05:00, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:09, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Insufficiently notable. Xxanthippe (talk) 21:34, 1 November 2024 (UTC).[reply]

Christian Brothers' College, Boksburg

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No refs on the page for many years. I see some passing mentions in autobiographies and regurgitated PR in local media but nothing significant. I'd be interested to hear if anyone can find much else JMWt (talk) 07:50, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Education and South Africa. JMWt (talk) 07:50, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Schools and Christianity. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 10:52, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Joy Deep as Sorrow

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A former redirect that's been reverted back into an article. I tried a WP:BEFORE search, but got a page full of lists of the songs on the album. I dream of horses (Hoofprints) (Neigh at me) 18:07, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Albums and songs and Christianity. I dream of horses (Hoofprints) (Neigh at me) 18:07, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

GreenPark Christian Academy

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One-line stub for an obscure religious private school in St. Louis. The only references are non-independent. I wouldn't really call this to be significant coverage. This makes a passing mention of the school closing in 2010. There's a couple sentences here about the school closing, but that article is about a different entity. I just don't see a pass of WP:NSCHOOL here; it says something about the article subject that this school has apparently been closed for over 15 years and our article on it has not been updated with that information. Hog Farm _Talk 04:00, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Education, Schools, Christianity, and Missouri. Hog Farm _Talk 04:00, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Not finding anything myself. The school has been closed for nearly 15 years and it is not notable to have its own article. I've checked the sources you've listed and do not think that the coverage is anything extraordinary or enough to give the school its own article. Looking at previous versions of the article, I don't think the lawsuits mentioned really materialized into any news. ❤History Theorist❤ 23:40, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete due to insufficient independent and verifiable sources that establish the school's notability, as the content primarily focuses on basic institutional details without broader significance or coverage.--Moarnighar (talk) 11:18, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jayson Sherlock

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Run of the mill everyday person that has played in a handful of bands with no particular suitable redirect target. Fails WP:GNG and WP:ANYBIO. Graywalls (talk) 05:03, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Artists, Bands and musicians, and Australia. Graywalls (talk) 05:03, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - agree with nom. Current sourcing is stuff that can't be used for notability, like band's own page, facebook, youtube. Cannot tell if this guy passes any of the WP:NMUSICIAN checks either such as charting. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 05:51, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 06:01, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I'm going to try and find sources for this guy. He was in one of the best-selling heavy metal bands in Australia, at the peak of their popularity, so there's probably stuff out there.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 16:34, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Whelp. There's lots of stuff about the bands he's in/been in, but little about him. I suspect there's probably print mentions in magazines or newspapers, but that's going to be difficult to dig through.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 17:22, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Unless something establishes him notable for himself, I say he's not notable. This works the other way as well. An organization may be notable, but individual members (or groups of members) do not "inherit" notability due to their membership. from WP:INHERITORG Graywalls (talk) 18:49, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Right. That's why I'm not counting that coverage of the bands he's been in, because that would be more appropriate for the requisite articles. I do see that an HM interview is referenced, but not cited, in the article. I'll try and see if I can access that. If it's an interview of "him", that would help towards individual notability.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 19:54, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

~~(Provisional) Keep vote~~, because there's an HM interview with/profile of him in existence. It needs to be accessed and cited, but accessibility doesn't determine notability, the coverage need only *exist*.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 20:01, 25 October 2024 (UTC) Ah, it's accessible online: here it is--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 20:03, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@3family6:, found it. here I think interview with the subject can be used to verify information about the subject but obviously, words from the subject is not independent, so I question its value for conferring notability, which requires secondary source. Graywalls (talk) 20:38, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

that he's covered in an interview by an independent reliable source would confer notability, but it's just one source.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 15:15, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, I can't seem to find anything else. HM mentioned back in 2008 that he doesn't do media appearances, so that one source might be all that there is.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 20:09, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Subject does not have significant coverage in independent sources hence fail WP:GNG and WP:Notability for musician (I can't find any traces of a major award)Tesleemah (talk) 13:14, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. WP:MUSICBIO#6. Prominent member of Mortification, Paramaecium and Horde (only member). The later is an obvious merge target if people want to ignore the notability guidelines which seems to be the norm these days. duffbeerforme (talk) 14:42, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:BANDMEMBER, he needs coverage about him specifically in order to be notable.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 12:14, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Or you can actually read what BANDMEMBER says and not tell us porkies. duffbeerforme (talk) 00:08, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Members of notable bands are redirected to the band's article, not given individual articles, unless they have demonstrated individual notability. Every band Sherlock has been in is definitely notable, no question. But, and I was surprised at this, so far it appears there's one source, mentioned above, that is about him specifically rather than a band he's part of. Horde was a one-man-band in studio, true, but that's technically separate and any info about that would be duplicated between the band article and this article.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 11:50, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to Mortification (band). He was in multiple bands, but the article on Mortification is the only one with any meaningful information on him and it seems to be his most prominent role, with a lot of the sources that discuss him mentioning that as his most notable aspect. PARAKANYAA (talk) 00:14, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:03, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I oppose that redirect. There are pages of search results with RS coverage about his work in Horde. Horde also was comprised solely of Sherlock for the studio recording. There is plenty of information about him that could go into that article if it was developed more. Plus, there's also a lot of coverage of Revulsed. And that's not to mention his work in Paramaecium (~~which he was a member of longer than Mortification~~) and Deliverance. There's too many significant bands that could be the target of a redirect. If one was to be prioritized, Horde would be the most reasonable, imo, because it was a solo project.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 12:26, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How about del for now, but just create redirect later or discuss it in one one of the target page? It's not like it takes more than a few secs to make a redirect. Graywalls (talk) 15:26, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Helaman Jeffs

AfDs for this article:

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Renominating since the last discussion didn't attract much participation. There is no significant coverage at all of the subject. No SNGs apply. Notability is not inherited from family members. C F A 💬 22:15, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Christianity, Latter Day Saints, and Arizona. C F A 💬 22:15, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - he’s an heir presumptive to a sect of a sect, with heresies within heresies. The coverage is speculative at best. We are not a place for propaganda. Bearian (talk) 00:47, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Due to him being mentioned in numerous News articles from the likes of Fox News, The Salt Lake Tribune. BBC News etc. as being the current leader of a controversial church/cult. Thief-River-Faller (talk) 13:48, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You commented this last time but have yet to provide any examples of significant coverage about the subject. Being mentioned in numerous News articles (emphasis mine) does not indicate notability. C F A 💬 21:50, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 21:56, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Scars to Prove It

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Fails WP:NOTABILITY requirements, specifically WP:NMUSIC; no WP:SIGCOV. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 15:00, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Albums and songs-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 15:01, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 17:40, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - User:Bastun has nominated nine Remedy Drive albums for deletion, all with the same non-descriptive rationale copy/pasted into each: "Fails WP:NOTABILITY requirements, specifically WP:NMUSIC; no WP:SIGCOV." (The first nomination has slightly different syntax.) There is no evidence that a WP:BEFORE search, specific to each album, was done before this mass copy/paste operation. Some of the album articles have citations to reliable sources in the Christian music media, though others could be redirected to the band's article. That's already more variable evidence then given in these mass nominations. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 13:29, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Reply - not sure what you mean by "non-descriptive"? It's accurate. The albums have all failed to chart, and do not meet any criteria listed in WP:NALBUM (and I did not nominate articles by the band which had charted). Nor do they satisfy WP:SIGCOV - significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. Passing mention in genre music reviews was all I could find when doing WP:BEFORE, and that doesn't qualify. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 16:45, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:JUSTAPOLICY. You should indicate why and how those policies were violated in the original nomination. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 12:41, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I literally did that? Fails WP:NOTABILITY requirements, specifically WP:NMUSIC; no WP:SIGCOV is clear, unambiguous and identifies the policies breached. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 12:59, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep seems good enough. Babysharkboss2!! ^{(I spread pro-Weezer propaganda)} 13:50, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This AFD is depressing. Vague nominations combatted by vague stances. Come on, do better. Sergecross73 msg me 20:08, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
C'mon, Babysharkboss2, you've participated in AFDs before. A Keep based on your first impressions of an article will be ignored by a closer. You need to be specific about sources (WHICH sources, too) and whether they establish notability. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:15, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep. There's a bit more on this one too. As I said on the nomination for Imago Amor, the reviews that are present are the usual weak/blog-esque Christian music sources, but it's an indication there is more coverage out there. Ss112 08:04, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Doczilla _{Ohhhhhh, no!} 05:11, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting. A source review would be helpful here.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:05, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: the albums WikiProject source list at WP:ALBUM/SOURCES#Christian music defers to Wikipedia:WikiProject Christian music/Sources for judging source reliability in this topic area and I see in-depth significant coverage of this album from publications deemed reliable in that list: CCM Magazine, Jesus Freak Hideout, and Louder Than the Music, in addition to The Review. Left guide (talk) 06:40, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Imago Amor

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Fails WP:NOTABILITY requirements, specifically WP:NMUSIC; no WP:SIGCOV. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 14:58, 17 October 2024 (UTC) Add: The albums by Remedy Drive that I have nominated for deletion all failed to chart, and do not meet any criteria listed in WP:NALBUM (and I did not nominate articles by the band which had charted). Nor do they satisfy WP:SIGCOV - significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. Passing mention in genre music reviews was all I could find when doing WP:BEFORE, and that doesn't qualify. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 16:55, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Albums and songs-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 15:00, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 17:40, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep. The reviews that are present are the usual weak/blog-esque Christian music sources, but it's an indication there is more coverage out there. Ss112 08:03, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as has multiple reviews in reliable sources already present in the article as determined at Wikipedia:WikiProject Christian music/Sources, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 20:46, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Doczilla _{Ohhhhhh, no!} 05:11, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting, a review of sources here would be helpful.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:06, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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