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Bob Day (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Bob Day is an Australian politician. His Wikipedia article is currently negatively biased. He has a webpage which, in addition to general information about him, attempts to respond to the content of our article. The advocate of that content, Timeshift9 (talk · contribs) repeatedly removes the link, despite being told directly that the site belongs to Bob Day, see Talk:Bob_Day#Bob Day dot Com for our discussion. Fred Talk 18:18, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Given the name and nature of the site, I think there is a strong presumption that Bob Day controls the site. This certainly qualifies as an official website and it should be included as an external link under WP:ELYES, point 1. Put it back in and if Timeshift9 removes it, let me know and I will put it back in (so you don't get into an edit war situation). An official website is the only EL everybody agrees must be included. Vyeh (talk) 19:11, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

reverted immediately despite citing WP:ELYES in the comment and on the talk page. Fred Talk 01:31, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Discussion continued on article talk page. —UncleDouggie (talk) 07:57, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Regrettably, I felt the need to file a Wikiquette alert, Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts#User:Timeshift9_in_regard_to_Bob_Day. To my fellow ELN editors, having read the talk page at the article, it looks like the dispute about whether BobDaly.com.au is an official site is part of a "scorched earth" campaign (note I am not saying that this tactic is one sided -- the originator of this section has complained at other noticeboards and I am aware that the dispute resolution mechanism can also be used to harass other editors). I think UncleDouggie does raise the point that the site doesn't explicitly state that it is authorized by Bob Daly. However, he is a prominent politician, it does have his name on it and it looks like an official site. His argument that the existence of references suggest that it is not an official site seems a bit far-fetched (references can also be used to direct interested readers to more information). Vyeh (talk) 12:41, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

You saying it so does not make it so. There is no consensus on the article's talk page to include what appears to be a page which attacks his wikipedia article, and the website has no claim of ownership of it. I am quite happy for consensus to run it's course on the talk page but so far this is not happening, instead unilateral additions are being made despite the fact they are disputed. WP:CONSENSUS is needed, but it is being ignored. I have unfortunately had to revert the addition again because of this - repeated insertion of contentious material without consensus. I have, yet again for the upteenth time, requested discussion and consensus here. Timeshift (talk) 03:34, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Timeshift9 removed the external link. I've reinstated the link and would really appreciate it if another ELN editor would look at the situation. The crux of the situation is that an editor who is involved with WP:OTRS saw complaints from the subject of a BLP complaining about the WP article. After weeks of assuming the subject was whining, the editor made a few changes which were reverted. The subject of the BLP claimed ownership of the BobDaly.com.au site through an email to the OTRS editor. Since the editor has been editing since 2002, has been an arbitrator and was not involved with the article prior to seeing the OTRS, I find the editor very credible and do not see the necessity of some formal claim on the website itself. Vyeh (talk) 03:42, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

People who don't know what whois is useful for may wish to read Talk:Bob Day#How_to_identify_a_website.27s_owner, even if they're not interested in this particular dispute. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:18, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Consensus and discussion are currently in the process of occurring on the article's talk page. Even if Bob Day does own the site, does not mean it warrants automatic inclusion if the community believes it not to be in the best interests. The site is an attack on the article, and has no claim of ownership on it. If the community believes this is reason not to list the site that is apparently owned by him, then so be it. You cannot beat that. In the end, on the article's talk page, after all is said and done, it may end up there, it may not. But it's a disputed contentious issue so you are required to allow the status quo until such time. I find it a real shame that throughout this entire process, you have shown no willingness and goodwill to engage in talkpage consensus discussion, and repeatedly reinserted disputed/contentious material that deviated from the status quo. Timeshift (talk) 00:22, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

WP:ELOFFICIAL lists only two criteria:

An official link is a link to a website or other Internet service that meets both of the following:

1. The linked content is controlled by the subject (organization or individual person) of the Wikipedia article.
2. The linked content primarily covers the area for which the subject of the article is notable.

****

Wheter it attack WP is of no consequnses. It is clear that you have no indication to listen to reason and you do not undertand the limits WP:CONLIMITED places on talk page consensus. Articles are limted by the consensus of the wider communiy. In this case, 'official links" are favored to give the sugject of an article (parcularly as one a ngeative as the sugject article a chacne to respond and alos to give reasers a chance to to see what the sugject has to say what he has said to himsefl.). You may have successed tp brpwstratomg mrd ( fave much more important things to do wiht my time than participate ij a talk page that I have no intrest - and for the recprd. I did state my opinion hter to help contribute to the talk page), If Fred chooses the pursue this further (and I see no reason n OTRS edito shoud, he will does have my support. Blocks are servious matters and I hope other uninvolved editors can tone tonw the demanig and contnetious tone of your talk pages and introduce you to the responsibilities primary editiors have in WP:OWN — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vyeh (talk • contribs) 18:35, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Sysoon

Mimamax (talk · contribs) created an article for Sysoon (which was speedied as promotional), and has been adding links to deceased people's articles pointing to their records on sysoon.com. Is this useful, or is it linkspam? Thanks. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:38, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Sysoon is like a FindAGrave.com however its a specialized search engine for dead people. Sysoon Inc. Wins WebAward price 2010 (by Web Marketing Association) for sysoon.com for For Outstanding Achievement in Web Development. Its very helpful to find an individual's birt/death date on a vital record worldwide, such as a death certificate. Sysoon helps contributors to find the information about the dead people. Its fast and easy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mimamax (talk • contribs) 20:14, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

I looked at a couple added links. They are really not all that useful. Maybe they are for some...but I imagine for most there won't be. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 22:06, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree. They aren't really all that useful. All of the information found on the ones I looked at can be found at other, more informative (and possibly more reliable) sources. Any extra, useful information that might be there appears to be hidden to non-registered users, which violates WP:ELNO #6. --13² 22:33, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

There is more countries worldwide (many restriction are in Europe) where the law forbid to show all personal data - Its reason why the registration is required however registration is for free and after login the hidden field are displayed. If you say that that there are these hidden field which might violates your #6 why the website Geni.com (everything is hidden) apear in Wikipedia records? Mimamax (talk) 10:18, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't see anything informative in those links, and they should be removed. I do see quite of bit of useful family tree information at the handful of geni sites I poked around at; if you feel there is a problem with those, please provide specific links so you can help us manage the quality of the links we provide here. I'm presuming you have some tie to sysoon, no? Kuru (talk) 16:41, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

This is a major cross-wiki spam issue and should be addressed at meta:Talk:Spam blacklist.^[1] --A. B. ^{(talk • contribs)} 06:56, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

See

• meta:Talk:Spam blacklist#sysoon.com (permanent link)

There are >30 Wikipedia projects affected (Spanish, Italian, Afrikaans, etc.)

--A. B. ^{(talk • contribs)} 08:04, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Online post office - list of companies in tables

I would appreciate input from others on Online post office and Comparison of online post office. I came across the article over a year ago due to some linkspamming of a couple of the companies on the page and reviewing all the places where those links were used.

Basically, the table originally at Online post office (from Aug 18, 2009) failed to supply any inclusion criteria, so any company that simply existed was added to the table. I also objected because the table included trivial marketing variances which I didn't believe were notable for their relationship to an online post office. I tried converting the table to a more neutral overview of the subject, which was objected to by Jgombos (talk · contribs); however, he never made an effort to rewrite the wording, nor even propose alternate wording, so the trimmed version remained.

Later, the user created a non-attributed fork of the same table at http://paperless.wikia.com/wiki/Online_Post_Offices and began adding a link to that wikipage onto several articles, which I reverted per WP:ELNO #12.

Now, Gagarine (talk · contribs) has created another non-attributed fork of the table at Comparison of online post office. The attribution issue can be fixed; but it's a recreation of the same original table which still has the same issues I identified in the discussion at the original article's talk page. I've started a new discussion on the table at Talk:Comparison of online post office. I'm not against having such a table; but I view the lack of inclusion criteria as being a primary problem, with the trivial marketing variances being a secondary issue.

I would appreciate it if others can take a look, as I really am getting tired of this prolonged issue and would like to get input from others to see if my concerns are on-track with the rest of the community, or if I'm being overly concerned with the table issues on this. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 01:44, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

It looks like this article needs to survive AFD first, but in general, I think the problem is with list selection criteria, not with external links. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:26, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Intention to mass-revert edits that changed geocities to oocities

FYI –xeno^talk 17:45, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't get this, neither of these sources is a WP:RS can someone tell me why these links should just not be removed ? Off2riorob (talk) 18:24, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

That's not necessarily true; the planned mass reversion is one step in a large-scale effort to voir dire the links: it is a temporary measure to resolve a specific issue and pave the way for the future efforts (which may well result in a good number of the links being removed). –xeno^talk 18:25, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I had to google the French or Norman expression legal expression, I learn something everyday at Wikipedia, as for removal of the links I have yet to see one that was worth keeping, but perhaps I don't edit in the spheres where they may be valuable and reliable. Thanks for commenting, Off2riorob (talk) 18:59, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

MissionWares

I came across these two diffs from 71.170.134.84. I'm leaning towards removing them, but I wanted to solicit a second opinion first. Thanks, 28bytes (talk) 19:12, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, please revert those edits. The sections added do not assist the article, and WP:MOS#External links points out that we do not put external links within an article (except for the "External links" section, where links must comply with WP:EL; these links do not). Johnuniq (talk) 23:44, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. I've reverted them. 28bytes (talk) 17:00, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Hotel Manager @ Wickipedia

"Hotel Manager" is one of the pages on Wickipedia. The Hotel Managers Forum is the community of hotel managers with over 1800 members. The page needs update and we tried to help, believing that we as the largest community of hotel managers in the world have a say on the “Hotel Manager” Page of the Wikipedia.

• There were couple of relatively irrelevant “Extranl Links”, that we left them alone. WE added two new links.
  • Hotel Managers Forum link www.hotelmanagersforum.org or www.managersforum.org; The largest hotel manager community in the world.
  • American Hotel and Lodging Association www.ahla.org ; The largest Hotel Operations organization consisted of owners and investors.
• Also added some comments on the page trying to improve it. The comments are done by industry leaders.

However not only all links and nearly all of in for on hotel managers were deleted, but we go this rather rude note on the “talk” page. “I have removed the external link you put in the Hotel manager article, its not appropriate to spam encyclopedia articles. Please don't put it in again. Cheers. Dylanfromthenorth (talk) 20:25, 22 September 2010 (UTC)”

I have tried to contact the “editor” but I have received another bullish answer.

Why an external link to the Hotel Managers Forum on Hotel Manager page of Wikipedia is “spam”? I think that is the most direct link as it can be. Will you please explain that to me?

Wouldn’t this question the credibility of the Wikipedia? That the visitors to the Hotel Manager Page won’t be allowed to know that there is Forum for the hotel managers? This is outright censorship and misinforming the public. —Preceding unsigned comment added by NicholasFV (talk • contribs) 23:24, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

This concerns Hotel manager and General manager.

It takes quite a long time to learn the procedures here, and you have only been active for two days. The first point is that anyone can edit pages here, and Wikipedia has a very high Google ranking, with the result that hundreds of promotional links are added to articles every day. These links are removed because they do not assist a general reader of an encyclopedic article (see WP:EL). Wikipedia welcomes anyone who focuses on improving articles. Johnuniq (talk) 23:40, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

To add on the above, one part of WP:EL (the policy on external links), is that we never link to forums (except when the article is actually about the forum). You may want to see WP:FREESPEECH, too--Wikipedia is a private organization, and as such, is under no obligation to add any information that it does not want. The owners of the site choose to allow the community to make such decisions governed by certain rules and policies; thus, if policies/editors determine something shouldn't be on the site, it doesn't have to be and won't. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:30, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Hotel Managers Forum is NOT a commercial entity; it is community of hotel managers. The goals was creating a mutual link from the community to the Wikipedia and vice versa encouraging the hotel managers to complete the "hotel manager’s page” in Wikipedia. The page incomplete as you could have noticed.

It is like you have a page on White House but remove the external page to the White House It is like you have a page on American Medical Association and remove the link to the American Medical association.

Wikipedia will have, and does have serious problems with credibility and is taken as joke. Now I understand why, it is solely user based in which the users can be any one, mostly with no experience or knowledge on the subject and definitely not expert on what they are editing. Those “editors” consequently compensate for their lack of knowledge with being a bully.

There should be a system in place so that the pages can be edited by experts on that business if Wikipedia want to be a real Online Encyclopedia. That apparently is not happening.

Hotel Managers Forum cannot recognize the Wikipedia as a reliable source of information on hotel management until the page is edited by the veterans of the industry. Until that happens, I am not going to waste my time to correct the page or add Wikipedia link to/from our organization.

admin@managersforum.org www.managersforum.org Saturday September 25 2010 12:26 EST --NicholasFV (talk) 16:28, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Hi Nicholas,

Your arguments here are a little extreme. It's not like removing whitehouse.gov from White House; it's like removing joe's-forum-about-the-white-house.org from White House (and we would). Unlike whitehouse.gov for the White House, your website is not the official website for Hotel management (because there is no official website for hotel management: it's a career, not a single organization).

So this means that any links in the article have to comply with all the usual rules for external links, which includes the no forums rule and the no disputed links rule.

And -- I realize that this is unpleasant to hear, but I suspect that none of the volunteers on this page really care if your rather small website links to or approves of Wikipedia. There are already almost half a million websites that link to Wikipedia; one website more or less just isn't noticeable.

I think we would all be (very) happy to have you improve the article content (be sure to cite the best quality sources you can, like textbooks used in hotel management programs at a university) to tell people more about the job (I'll bet that page gets read a lot by students doing reports on future career options), but if you decide to go away because you can't promote your website in that article, then that's okay, too. Perhaps the next hotel manager who sees it will be interested in expanding the article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:42, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree with WhatamIdoing (nicely said by the way). Furthermore, the proper way to give people more information is not to link to your website, but to instead improve the Wikipedia article directly. Most casual readers don't bother with the external links. They expect to see the content right there on the page, and this article is sorely in need of improvement. Luckily, there isn't much of a conflict of interest issue here because it's a general article about the profession. You will need to aware of WP:NPOV. —UncleDouggie (talk) 06:36, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Input requested for an EL at paraphilia

There are two editors (myself and User:Bittergrey) who disagree over whether to include http://individual.utoronto.ca/ray_blanchard/index_files/EPES.html on the paraphilia page. There is a history of involvement by both editors with the subject matter, which prevents neutral discussion. Outside opinion is needed.

Reason's to include the EL include:

1. The link is relevant--It links to the faculty webpage of Ray Blanchard, a top expert on paraphilias, and provides a questionnaire of paraphilias, written by Kurt Freund, one of the top most cited researchers of the paraphilias.
2. The material is notable--It has been cited in dozens of relevant documents.[2]
3. The content of the questionnaire would be excessive to include on the page itself. (WP:ELYES)

The basis of the conflict is that the beliefs of advocates don't always line up with all the statments scientists make. User:BitterGrey is an advocate for persons with paraphilic interests. User:James_Cantor is a colleague of Ray Blanchard's (and has himself published peer reviewed research articles on paraphilias).

BitterGrey believes that the EL is self-promotional for James Cantor, and James Cantor believes that BitterGrey is deleting EL's from James Cantor as part of spreading the dispute he is having on the WP page about James Cantor...and previous disputes.

Some neutral opinions as to the relevance of http://individual.utoronto.ca/ray_blanchard/index_files/EPES.html on paraphilia would be greatly appreciated.
— James Cantor (talk) 21:54, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Here's a link to the three-hour old discussion on that page, "Bittergrey's use of this page as a battleground for his POV. If it included points relevant to EL, instead of focusing on personal accusations, it might have been more successful at reaching a consensus. BitterGrey (talk) 22:14, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Reply to user:James Cantor - As I said, please stop adding cites linked to yourself, that is the actual issue here. When alleged experts edit wikipedia in their field they are unable to not propagate their personal POV and as this reflects, self publicize their own work or the work of their associated colleagues, and it always leads to such disputes as this. We just need simple widely read publications to cite, like the new york times and suchlike. Off2riorob (talk) 22:18, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

I acknowledge Off2riorob's earlier statement that he has a problem in general with experts editing pages of their expertise, as "They have a mountain of conflict of interest and as such are so involved to be unable to edit in that area in a neutral manner." For the time being, however, that is not the consensus of WP.

One should note also that we are discussing an EL that has been on paraphilia, without incident, for 18 months. To discuss it as if it represented some sudden gotcha violation to some warning "as you said" is to spin it.

Finally, the appropriate thing to do is precisely what I did: Bring the issue to a neutral talkpage relevant to the issue. Although you are entitled to your opinions, you are not entitled to disrupt WP because you believe as a matter of principle that experts are incapable of NPOV.

— James Cantor (talk) 23:01, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

You don't seem to be understanding, it is your claimed expertness that is the problem, wikipedia editors don't require any level of expert at all, an expert wikipedia editor to me is one that edits in a WP:NPOV manner in multiple fields. This is not a gotcha at all, this will be repeated and ignoring your responsibility in the issue is not a good sign. Its like this, a user with a strong personal issue and clear POV in a certain field, comes to wikipedia and starts editing his field, it is unavoidable that they want all the article to reflect their POV , after some times of this, other users start to notice and come and start NPOV-ing the articles and that is what is happening here now and at multiple articles in the experts field of narrow editing, the expert that has been editing his field then starts warring and wiki lawyering and going to multiple noticeboards in an attempt to keep the articles as they have edited them, much disruption ensues. I expect you know it was added eighteen months ago because you added it .. here you are your own blog as an external link. Off2riorob (talk) 23:10, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Your comment suggests we may be having a language problem. Although I would certainly agree that the phrase "expert editor" seems to suggest "someone who edits with expertise," I use the phrase "expert editor" as it's defined in WP:expert retention. I would never claim that I edit WP with any expertise. To the extent I am a real-world expert is for others to opin, but the consensus of my talkpage would seem to suggest that I should consider myself one for WP purposes. (And being so deemed yields no privileges, I assure you.)

I can only repeat what you don't seem to be understanding: My bringing to EL/N the issue of whether an EL (written by a man I never met) should be added to paraphilia is precisely what my responsibility is. (And I am happy to do it.)

Because you are clearly interested in me rather than in the point of this noticeboard, however, I suggest we move this to one of our talkpages.

— James Cantor (talk) 23:42, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Is is posted further up the page, User:James_Cantor is a colleague of Ray Blanchard's. Your don't seen to be listening, so a discussion anywhere is going to be valueless. The link I provided showing you adding your own blog to the article reflects an example of the whole issue as I see it, this external link is a very minor reflection of that. Off2riorob (talk) 00:16, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

For reference, here is a link to when James Cantor originally added the EL in question[3]. (The similarity in URL isn't coincidental: James Cantor, Ray Blanchard, and Kurt Freund are all associated with that facility.) BitterGrey (talk) 23:36, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Let's please stick to the facts of this case and save personal bickering for your respective talk pages. As an uninvolved user, I have several questions:

1. James Cantor: You state in the third person above that Ray Blanchard is your colleague and yet further down you state that you have never met him, even though you both seem to be from Toronto. Please clarify your relationship to the author of the EL.
2. James Cantor: Which of the WP:EL criteria, by number, do you believe apply to this case?
3. Bittergrey: Which of the WP:EL criteria, by number, do you believe apply to this case?
4. It would appear that the EL is a non-peer reviewed academic article by an expert in the field. Does anyone dispute this?
5. Why is there no suitable peer-reviewed article for what seems to be a common subject in this field?

Thanks. —UncleDouggie (talk) 06:09, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

UncleDouggie: Thank you for the appropriate focus on the issue.
1. I meant that I have never met Kurt Freund; I am indeed a close colleague of Ray Blanchard. The content of the link (a questionnaire of paraphilias) was written by Freund and is available on Blanchard's website.
2. If I am correcting interpreting "by number" to mean the numbers given at WP:ELYES, then the relevant one is #3, "neutral and accurate material that is relevant to an encyclopedic understanding of the subject and cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to...amount of detail."
4. Correct.
5. I'm not sure what this is asking. The EPES (the name of the questionnaire), has been cited by several dozen peer-reviewed articles: [4].
— James Cantor (talk) 13:49, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

The EL is basically a list of questions that might be asked about paraphilias, one of hundreds or thousands of such possible lists. It might not be a bad list, but lacks any insight or significance of it's own. Using a search of Google scholar give only one academic result"Freund"+"Paraphilia+Scales"&btnG=Search&as_sdt=2000&as_ylo=&as_vis=0.

In addition to lacking merit, this link was placed under a conflict of interest. James Cantor, Ray Blanchard, and Kurt Freund are associated with the CAMH lab at the University of Toronto[5][6][7]. Furthermore, James's advocacy includes removal of competing research and negatively editing ELs to others (e.g. [8]). Coinicident to the addition of the link to Kurt Freund's Scale, material about the Klein Sexual Orientation Grid was removed[9]. As they were now, My attempts at discussion then were met with personal attacks and accusations[10].

Finally, this particular link was part of an extended campaign of promotion of himself, his workplace, and the club that the three of them belong to. Here is a brief survey of ELs added by Cantor, based on change descriptions, going back to june 2009. (I'll expand when time permits) Please note that the two non-conflicted, non-spammed ELs that James Cantor has added are included to give a balanced result.

ELs to personal blogs or place of work, placed by James Cantor:

4 june, Penile plethysmograph, http://individual.utoronto.ca [11]

4 june, Sexological testing, http://individual.utoronto.ca [12]

28 june 2009, Sexology, http://individual.utoronto.ca [13]

14 july 2009, Paraphilia, http://individual.utoronto.ca [14]

18 march, DSM-5, http://individual.utoronto.ca [15]

22 april, Hebephilia, http://individual.utoronto.ca [16]

23 april, Catholic sex abuse cases, http://individual.utoronto.ca [17]

16 august, Hebephilia, http://www.individual.utoronto.ca [18]

11 sept, sexual addiction, http://www.magazine.utoronto.ca [19]

contested[20]

escalated to AN/I[21]

External links to SSSS (club), placed by James Cantor:

28 june 2009, Sexology, http://www.sexscience.org [22]

restored under conflict [23]

12 july 2009 Sexology http://www.sexscience.org [24]

restored under conflict [25]

12 july 2009 Sexology [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sexology&diff=prev&oldid=301706560

restored under conflict [26]

Other linkspamming:

http://aliceingenderland.com (not sure of association) 15 august, Androphilia and gynephilia [27] 15 august, Transvestic fetishism [28] 15 august, Transvestism [29] 15 august, Transgender [30] 15 august, Cross-dressing [31]

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/hate_crimes.html (not sure of association) 4 april Gregory M. Herek [32] 4 april Hate crime [33]

http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/Pages/SexualandGenderIdentityDisorders.aspx 18 march Paraphilia[34] 18 march Sexology[35] 18 march Pedophilia[36]

Other ELs promoting himself 22 april Debate on the causes of clerical child abuse[37] -interview with James Cantor

ELs maybe OK (included to avoid NPOV)

19 december 2009 Sexologies: European Journal of Sexual Health (Revue Européenne de Santé Sexuelle) http://www.europeansexology.com [38]

11 august 2009 Sexology http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/Entrance_Page/entrance_page.html [39] (EL to non-SSSS website restored).

Perhaps the soundest argument for the merit of this particular EL, and most of the other ELs above, is that only one conflicted editor sees the need to add them, and feels the need to add them personally in such great number. 15:04, 26 September 2010 (UTC) (Sorry - I was rushing to get this together and get out the door. BitterGrey (talk) 19:15, 26 September 2010 (UTC) )

Um, if we can separate fact from spin, just for a moment, we might re-apply UncleDouggie's questions to each of the above and get the same answers to each. They all provide neutral information, all in proportion to how it appears in RS's, etc. They all are accompanied by one or more explicit statements from me about my associations with them (e.g., [40], [41], [42], [43], [44], [45], ...), and the editors of the pages on which they have appeared have accepted them, except for persons with who have histories of content disputes with me (and are off-wiki activists regarding the topic) who dispute them to make a point while avoiding any discussion of actual content.

If you, or EL/N, or anyone else would like to review them, to evaluate each for appropriateness to their pages, I would by happy to discuss them. WP:IDONTLIKEIT (or WP:IDONTLIKECANTOR) is not a valid a reason.

— James Cantor (talk) 15:34, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Please do not assert such issues on to good faith users. It is your conflict of interest additions and your self promotion that is the only issue, wikipedia is not improved at all by such promotional additions. To help you understand, its like this...lets say...Margaret thatcher comes along to wikipedia..she has retired and has free time so she starts editing wikipedia articles about articles related to her personal narrow field of opinionated expertise and adding links that support her POV and links to her own articles and her friends articles and she becomes the main contributor to some articles in her field .. do you think those articles would be neutral and unbiased? Off2riorob (talk) 18:03, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

If Thatcher had snuck around, hidden who she was, and had no history of adding a wide variety of information about British history unrelated to herself, then I would certainly want to check the content.

If Thatcher had acknowledged herself, openly invited editors to check each change, and cited herself only within WP:SPS, then I would...well, want to check the content.

To reverse your analogy, let's say that Galileo decided to edit WP and found that the pages relevant to astronomy were missing relevant information because the inforamtion was published only in Latin, but that he had an English-translation available on his website that he added as an EL. You assert that it should be deleted, without further comment, and the actual content of the link should not even be discussed by the otherwise uninvolved editors at EL/N. That is a problem for WP process.

If any article is even close to me being "the main contributor", do please back up your claim. For the articles in question, the great majority of my edits (over the past year, anyway) are to talkpages and are typically responses to questions posed to me.

Very clearly, your suppositions about me are not about me; they appear to be about an image you have developed on the basis of other people's behavior. As I said before, and as UncleDouggie said, this is not the place for your beef with me (or with expert editors in general), and I reassert my recommendation that the discussion be moved to one of our talkpages or other appropriate forum.

— James Cantor (talk) 18:57, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

My comments are not about some preconceived idea they are about you, Imo a user that adds their own blog and what are basically the blogs of their mates that hold the exact same POV as themselves sand then complain when other users notice and remove the self promotion simply disrupt the neutrality and balance of our articles, the best articles are written by uninvolved ordinary users with no specialist knowledge at all. Off2riorob (talk) 19:13, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Bittergrey: Please sign your comment properly above and respond to my questions on the EL that James Cantor brought to this noticeboard. You can start your own section on problems with other ELs, but please note that general COI issues belong on the COI noticeboard.

James Cantor: My question #5 is related to why this is the only reference for such a list. Is this list of questions generally accepted by the academic community as valid?

Bittergrey: Are you fundamentally opposed to any such list? If so, do you have references to back you up as to why it is bad? Are there competing lists that are more generally accepted?

—UncleDouggie (talk) 18:29, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

UncleDouggie, if we had a page dedicated to the hundreds or thousands of questionnaires on the paraphilias that exit, I wouldn't be adverse to this one being on that list. This would permit balance among the many, many questionnaires. However, given that we don't have such a page, I don't think the paraphilia article really needs an EL to one particular questionnaire. I accept that this list of questions has particular importance to it's sole advocate, the one person who originally inserted this EL and so many others to himself and his coworkers. However, Wikipedia has policies in place specifically to prevent its use for self-promotion (and friend-promotion). I don't believe the paraphilia page needs an EL to one particular list of questions, and I don't believe that list of questions should be selected according on one editor's conflicted interests.

I'd be willing to compromise; perhaps one of Masters and Johnson's or Kinsey's historic and unarguably notable questionnaires, especially if the EL is to one or the other respected institution? BitterGrey (talk) 19:15, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

If I am reading you correctly, you are asking why the list was never published. Freund died before I could become curious about any specific work of his, but I can say that, in general, questionnaires such as that one were not typically published as independent peer-reviewed articles in those days. Journal pages were too scarce and expensive, and the accepted thing for researchers to do in those days was to say in the article something like "questionnaire available upon request" and send it to whomever asked. Today, such information would often be included as "supplemental data" in a journal's e-repository. The EPES is indeed generally accepted, such as by being included in The Handbook of Sexuality Related Measures (Routledge) [46]. Other examples: [47], [48], and the results of the google search I put up already.

— James Cantor (talk) 18:54, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

James Cantor, the first two examples you give include it in a list of many questionnaires[49][50]. This suggests the the EL you are advocating was just one of may possibilities. The third example uses questions scored on a scale of 1-5, with particular interest in one's father[51], while the EL in question scores only from 0-1 and apparently doesn't use the word "father"[52]. This suggests that not even those two researchers had standardized around one particular questionnaire. Collectively, this suggests that even your best evidence supports my position.BitterGrey (talk) 19:35, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I found the connection between Gregory M. Herek's blog, posted by James Cantor in two locations [53][54] and James Cantor: Both are editors for SSSS' journal[55]. There was no disclosure of their relationship. This makes James Cantor's claim that those ELs "all are accompanied by one or more explicit statements from me about my associations" completely false. (Previously, it was effectively false. If others had not been watching for his conflicted editing (e.g. [56]), he might still be self-promoting as MariontheLibrarion (e.g.[57]), with no disclosure whatsoever. BitterGrey (talk) 21:27, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

I must say this is all getting quite silly. Presumably being a "consulting editor" in this particular area of science isn't much different from others: It's basically just a list of experts. When an article is submitted that falls in one of the editors' field of expertise, they get an email with a request to either referee it or pass it on to a suitable referee. It's unpaid, and I don't think consulting editors usually meet in person, other than by accident on a conference.

The general pattern that I am seeing here is the idea that experts should not be editing Wikipedia because they are experts, and that any silly reason will do to drive them off. That's not going to fly. Hans Adler 23:41, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

The original issue is that an EL was placed under a conflict of interest. Further checking showed not only that a large number of other conflicted ELs were placed, but that the conflicted editor who originally placed them is willing to misinform this noticeboard to avoid loosing it/them.BitterGrey (talk) 00:46, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Hans Adler, I noticed that you were involved in the recent discussion involving James Cantor at AN/I[58]. The two issues are separate, although there are some similarities. For example, James Cantor attempted to misrepresent his edit history there too[59] but there it was stated as a generalization. The distortion here was stated as a fact. This is about self-promotion, not education. A real expert would better handle his generalizations and facts anyway. BitterGrey (talk) 01:13, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

While some others may disagree, I'm delighted to have experts improve articles so long as they write in a way that is understandable to everyday readers rather than just academics, they permit other editors to improve on their words, and they don't exhibit COI behavior. In cases were the only acceptable ref or EL would present them with a COI, the addition should be discussed on the talk page before it is added. There are a few other long-time editors active on this article, but not many. I would suggest in such a case to ask for help from WikiProject Sexology to review the applicable discussion.

For the start of such a discussion, I would ask James Cantor if BitterGrey's compromise of using "Masters and Johnson's or Kinsey's historic and unarguably notable questionnaires" is acceptable, and if not, why not? If a consensus can be reached among established editors that the EPES is the best solution, then it should be added as it does seem to conform to WP:ELYES #3 and WP:ELMAYBE #4.

However, I'm concerned about the long-term stability of the EL given that it is on a faculty page. Perhaps if the EPES is sufficiently notable, the questionnaire should be placed in it's own article. The EL states that "these scales have not been copyrighted for commercial purposes, and any clinician or researcher who wishes to use them as they are, or to quote them, or to modify them for his or her own purposes is free to do so." I'm not clear on exactly what rights, if any, are being retained. If clear copyright permission can be obtained, an article is a possibility. Again, WikiProject Sexology seems like the right place to raise that question and James Cantor should not under any circumstances create such an article himself. If an article cannot be created, I recommend pursuing publication of the material in a journal or some other place that will provide for a long-term, stable link. The same logic should be applied to the other instances raised by Bittergrey.

You may want to wait a day before taking any action to see if others have a different opinion, although I don't know how much other input we will see for a section with 59 refs. :-) I'm glad to not be part of the AN/I discussion. Thank you both for your interest in improving Wikipedia. —UncleDouggie (talk) 02:45, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Petition EL at Gilgel Gibe III Dam

Myself and User:Maziotis have been in disagreement over an external link at the Gilgel Gibe III Dam article. The link is to a website that serves mainly as an online petition. The article is already heavily overloaded with repetitive controversy and the only EL is an online petition. I removed the EL under WP:ELNO "Links mainly intended to promote a website". As an encyclopedia, I don't think Wikipedia should be directing readers to online petitions. The dam is highly controversial which is not without warrant. I have been trying to balance the article as of late, so it meets NPOV and covers all aspects of the dam; engineering, construction history, specifications, etc. Maziotis has expressed in one of his edit summaries that the link provides relevant information, which is true, but the site mainly serves as an online petition. In addition, there has to be other sites that can provide the same relevant information.--NortyNort (Holla) 11:41, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

It should be removed. Ignoring specific points of WP:EL, the link is highly polarized and violates NPOV policy. Unless it's the official site about the subject (which it is not) or is scholarly in nature (which it is not), it should not be included. We don't add any and all links just because they are related to the subject and might provide relevant information. It's better to not have a link at all than to have one to a POV-loaded, online petition. --13² 15:10, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

The site belongs to respectable organizations and the documents are provided by notable and verifiable sources. I don't see how being POV matters on an EL issue like this. The link does provide further information from notable sources. Maziotis (talk) 19:02, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

You don't get it. Neutrality applies to the entire article and yes, that does extend to the external links. Like I said before, simply providing further information is no reason to keep it (please see WP:VALINFO, which is about articles, but the argument also works for link and info removal; also WP:NOBLECAUSE). Further, the link does not pass WP:ELNO reasons #1 (surely this is an article about a significant topic, correct? which means lots and lots of resources and sources for citations to get that valuable info onto the article), 2 (it's one-sided, period), 4, and possibly 19. Please find another link. --13² 00:56, 27 September 2010 (UTC)