Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Archived nominations/March 2013

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Ian Rose 10:03, 15 March 2013 (UTC) [1].

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Bal maiden

Nominator(s):  Mogism (talk) 18:52, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because I think it says everything about bal maidens (female manual labourers in the mines of south-west Britain) that any general reader could reasonably want to know. A peer review didn't get any responses, but I wasn't really surprised by that as everyone I'm aware of with in interest in the topic had already looked at it by that point. As mentioned at the peer review, this relies very heavily on Lynne Mayers but that's purely because her series is so definitive, it's unlikely anyone will ever write another significant work on the topic. None of this material is disputed or controversial, so there's not an "only giving one point of view" problem. Mogism (talk) 18:52, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Comments by Smalljim

A great piece of work in a topic that I'm interested in, so I have a few suggestions...

• Firstly, although I don't have the 2008 edition of Mayers' book, I do have a copy of the Hypatia Trust 1st edition which is A4 sized with 246 pages. The pagination is evidently different, but does Mayers mention any significant changes in the 2nd ed.?

• The correct term for what the article calls a metal mine or metal mining throughout is metalliferous, as used by Mayers herself.

Lead photo

• "Bal maidens in traditional protective clothing, 1890" — Are they not wearing their clean white aprons which were exchanged for rough hessian ones for work? There's a similar-looking photo on p.48 of Mayers 1st ed. showing "two Dolcoath balmaidens, wearing their best aprons [...] One has her work apron over her arm".

Mechanisation and the 18th century copper boom

• "In 1678 Clement Clerke introduced the coal-powered reverberatory furnace, allowing metal to be separated from fine grains of ore which had previously been discarded as waste, greatly increasing the quantity of metal extractable from ore.[35]" — I think this gives the wrong impression both regarding the date and the fate of the "fines" (the older method of smelting tin was the blowing house). Mayers herself seems confused here (at least in the 1st ed.) Since this isn't central to the article, I think something simpler like "The introduction of the coal-powered reverberatory furnace greatly improved the yield" would be better.

Working conditions

• "Other contemporary observers noted that bal maidens were generally good natured and well behaved,[118] and often devoutly religious,[117] but it is well-documented that bal maidens typically took great pride in their own appearance and clothing.[119]" — should that really be a "but" in there?

Notes

• Note b. should mention that that first reference is to "ball maidens" [sic]. Out of interest the text (as reported the next day by another newspaper) was apparently as follows:

The disasters which occur from the want of a Breakwater at Padstow prove the expediency of such an erection, by means of which the brig Isabella lately wrecked near that port and her valuable cargo would in all probability have been preserved. The country-people in that neighbourhood have been for some time busily employed in securing articles which belonged to the cargo of this vessel. On Wednesday evening a box of figs was discovered on Saint Miniver Common by a party of females on the look-out for concealed plunder; who were attacked by some ball maidens returning from a mine. After a sharp contest of two hours, victory declared in favour of the ball maidens who bore away the prize.

— Royal Cornwall Gazette, Saturday 6 Feb 1819, page 2. (via British Newspaper Archive)

Not just "rough in speech", eh!

• Note d. "Streaming was the original means of collecting ore which had eroded from mineral deposits and settled on stream and river beds, by separating the heavy metal from the lighter surrounding mud and gravel." — metal should read ore here, but even with that change this still isn't correct, something like "Streaming involved the collection of ore-bearing pebbles from alluvial deposits in river and stream beds where they had accumulated after being eroded from the ore-bearing lodes." would be more accurate. (That's wrong too - I'll come back on this)

Hope this helps, may have some more later.  —SMALLJIM  18:52, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

• From the preface to the second edition, the most significant changes from the original Hypatia work are "to extend the geographic scope to include Dartmoor and the Teign and Exe valleys; a more extensive use of the 1952 scrapbook compiled by the Troon Women's Institute; use of the "Day and Night Book" of two captains from Dolcoath in 1822-23; a much fuller treatment of 19th century tin streaming; a change to bal maiden rather than balmaiden as a more authentic usage". (Translation for readers unfamiliar with UK geography: 1st ed only covers Cornwall but 2nd ed covers the whole southwest.)
• I agree, but "metal mine" is repeated so often, for obvious reasons, that I'm reluctant to use the term "metalliferous". I know it's technically the correct term, but there's no risk of "metal mine" misleading readers into thinking a mine was made of metal, as opposed to extracting metals. If people think it's a problem I can change it, obviously.
• Impossible to say, as the photo isn't high enough quality to tell if the aprons are work aprons that haven't yet got dirty, or clean aprons that they're going to take off as soon as the photographer has finished. I think it would be very confusing to readers to have a long explanation in the caption, since the aprons would have looked the same in either case.
• Agree and have removed. I think it's worth mentioning the introduction of the furnaces, as it explains why the industry suddenly became efficient enough for large-scale operations to start, but there's no need to go into technical details.
• I think the "but" is appropriate in the context of "were they spendthrifts who blew all their spare cash on fancy clothes?". In devoutly Methodist 19th century Cornwall, "devoutly religious" and "pride in their own appearance" would have been considered incompatible.
• Agreed, added.
• Simplified further to "by collecting ore-bearing pebbles from river and stream beds" - again, readers don't need the technical details.

Thanks for taking the time to look at this! Mogism (talk) 22:10, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for all that, especially the edition differences - looks like I can refer to the first ed. text without too much trouble.

• Metal mine — well, if the reliable sources use the full term... But I'm happy to see what others think.
• Aprons — on p.49 of my Meyers it specifically says "The best one ... worn to and from the mine as well as for photographs and special occasions." If not in the caption, a mention of how dirty the hessian aprons got would be useful (we have a brief description from Minnie Andrews, and it's covered in Schwartz's Tin Mines and Miners of Lanner (2001) p. 87 ISBN 1-84114-019-8).
• Reverb. furnace — the way it's worded leads one to assume that 1678 was the date it was introduced here, which it wasn't: my Mayers only says "at the beginning of the 18th century".
• Pride in appearance — OK, I see what you're getting at, but to me the phrasing in the text doesn't express that clearly; and is that actually what the sources are implying?
• Pebbles — no, sorry for the confusion caused by my strike-out. That would have been the very earliest means of collecting ore (before streaming): I'll sleep on this!

 —SMALLJIM  00:48, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Well, today I've done what I should have done yesterday – I printed out the article and worked through it, pencil in hand. I'm sorry to say that the whole thing ended up covered in adverse comments. Now I'm not an experienced FA reviewer (I didn't even read the instructions about not using semicolon emboldened headings!), nor am I familiar with how the FA criteria are currently being interpreted. I know I can be prone to nitpicking, too, so I think I'd better wait for some other opinions before I consider making further in-depth comment: I don't want to potentially waste your (or my!) time. Using the broad FA criteria, though, I'd say that the section structure is insufficient to support the content – the text often diverges quite widely from the stated section topic. And regarding comprehensiveness, there's no discussion of "clay maidens" or of BMs work in mining for other minerals, to which Mayers (1st ed.) devotes two chapters. I'd like to see, too, more about the disconnect between how the BMs were seen and reported on by (privileged) visitors and the apparent truth revealed by the mine inspections (Mayers' "Myth and Reality" chapter). With apologies,  —SMALLJIM  23:20, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

• "Clay maidens" are an intentional omission. This article is "Bal maiden", not "Female manual labourers", and the only thing a chiuna clay quarry has in common with a metalliferous mine is that both involve a hole in the ground.
• Regarding other metals, I think anything more than the "bal maidens also worked in lead, zinc, manganese, iron, antimony, wolfram, and uranium mines" which is already in the article would raise WP:UNDUE issues. The 19th century Cornish mining industry was overwhelmingly dominated by tin and copper - to go into detail on arsenic, manganese etc would give these minor industries an undue prominence.
• I don't grasp what you're asking for as regards "myth and reality", over and above what's already included in the "Working conditions" section. If you're asking for an "in popular culture" section, I'd vehemently oppose that. Mogism (talk) 12:35, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Image review

• File:Bal_maidens_at_Dolcoath,_1890_(full_length).jpg/File:Miners_and_bal_maidens_at_Dolcoath,_1890.jpg: when/where was this first published?
• File:SpallingLge_cropped.jpg: what was the creator's date of death? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:40, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

• I'll get back to you on that one - it's widely used so might take a while to work out where it first appeared. If necessary I can certainly make a fair-use justification for this one.
• Not certain; the user who uploaded this hasn't edited since 2008. (It was uploaded as part of the original version of this article which was cut-and-pasted with permission from a website; this OTRS ticket refers, but because I don't have OTRS I can't confirm if that relates to the images or just the text.) As James Henderson is such a common name among engineers it's hard to confirm which was the one who wrote and illustrated this paper. It certainly appeared in the Proceedings of the Institution of Civil Engineers in 1858 so will definitely be PD in the USA, and even if he had been a child prodigy who was publishing long papers in technical journals in his teens, he would have had to have lived well into triple figures for this still to be in copyright in the UK. Mogism (talk) 12:35, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Delegate comments

• With no activity here for about a month, this nomination unfortunately seems to have well and truly stalled, so I'll be archiving it shortly. If others have indeed expressed an interest in it, you may wish to leave them neutrally worded notes before you renominate for FAC at a later date.
• As a bit of housekeeping, there are Harv errors appearing under Further reading -- since there shouldn't be citations pointing to these entries anyway, a simple way to eliminate the errors is to use the Cite Book template instead of Citation. N.B. You can use this script to check for such errors in future. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:49, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

• Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 07:10, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Ian Rose 10:04, 15 March 2013 (UTC) [2].

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Priyanka Chopra

Nominator(s): BollyJeff | talk 17:47, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because Priyanka Chopra is a popular and award winning Bollywood actress/dancer and former Miss World, who is now attempting to break into the American/International music scene as a singer. In the last 4 months this article was promoted to GA, received a copy edit from the GOCE, had a peer review, and a thorough source scrubbing. I think it meets the FA criteria now. BollyJeff | talk 17:47, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Comment: I would like to kickstart this review. The problem is, in the six days since the nomination there have been 60+ edits to the article – before any review comments have been made. This raises the question of whether the article was really ready for FAC when it was nominated; I notice some uncertainty on this point in the peer review discussion. Maybe the main editors can agree not to tinker for a while and let the reviewers get busy on a stable text – it is difficult to review a moving target! For the time being I'll just raise a few minor issues:

• Why it is necessary to triple-cite in the opening lead paragraph the fact that Priyanka is a leading contemporary actress? Generally, except in the case of direct quotes, citations are unnecessary in the lead since the information should be evidenced and cited in the main text.
• I notice in the main text a couple of paragraphs (both in the "Early success" section) which end with uncited statements.
• Long inline lists (see "Endoesements") should be avoided; give two or three examples.
• Some italics usage is contrary to MOS, e.g. Ahlan Bollywood Concert

These are pretty trivial points. Overall the article looks solid and comprehensive. Brianboulton (talk) 11:48, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

I fixed the lead sources and MOS. Un-sourced statements were just to highlight some film special appearances. Is a source really needed? They are in the filmography table also, and can be verified in the film articles. Or does it just look bad that the paragraph ends without a source? I am still deciding which of the 20 or so endorsements are the most important to show (was trying to be comprehensive). BollyJeff | talk 00:34, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

I went ahead and fixed the other two points as well. BollyJeff | talk 23:21, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

I have struck my specific concerns, which seem to have been adequately addressed. My original purpose (as stated) was to get the review going, and that seems to have worked. Unfortunately it is most unlikely I will find the time to go through this rather long article and give it a full review. I appreciate the effort that's gone into it, and wish it success. Brianboulton (talk) 23:51, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Comment regarding sources - At Bollyjeff's request, in early December I performed a quite ruthless audit of the references for accuracy and reliability. I did find many non-reliable sources at that time, but they were improved almost immediately and with nary a quibble. Obviously the article is very active and has changed a great deal since December, though, so another source review is needed; I will try to do so soon. In the meantime I concur with Brian: please let's try to let the article rest a bit during FAC, aside from reverting vandalism and making changes agreed on during the FAC itself, so that reviewers are commenting on more or less the same version of the article. Maralia (talk) 13:59, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

I do concur with the sentiments expressed by both Brian and Maralia. I had raised this concern at the PR itself. I would say give it one last brush and then stop with the vigorous content changing and sourcing. Especially User:Pks1142's edits which creat more problems. Let the reviewers critic on a stable version of the article. —Indian:BIO · ^{[ ChitChat ]} 06:22, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Check your eyes User:IndianBio. My edits were linked to providing more notable sources. Bollyjeff told me to do so. Please, No one here is interested in your comments. You haven't even contributed to the article. So don't point your fingers to me. Read the discussion first and then, comment.Prashant  ✉  06:56, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Stop with the personal attacks, try to understand the points regarding the numerous edits. You might decide for these major edits as beneficial, but ultimately this leads to the article kosing its stability. That is the point everyone is trying to make. And many a times I have seen Bollyjeff having to revert your edit because of this. As I had pointed out in the Peer review, stability is pretty important. Anyhow, continue editing then and fall to deaf ears like you are. —Indian:BIO · ^{[ ChitChat ]} 07:21, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

further comments from Maralia- I have reviewed the sources again, and I am satisfied that meet WP:RS. I did find some other quibbles, though:

• Appropriate context is necessary: remember the international audience, and consider that the international aspects of Chopra's career make assumption difficult. Here are a few examples where context is crucial to understanding:
  • "Mujhse Shaadi Karogi, which was a major commercial success with worldwide gross earnings of over 56 crore (US$10.19 million), and was the third-highest grossing film of the year." - the clarification needed here is that this was the third-highest grossing film of the year in India. It is particularly necessary to explicitly state this as the early part of the sentence (worldwide gross earnings) would lead to a wrong conclusion. There is at least one other case of similar phrasing within the article that needs clarification.
  • "A survey conducted by AdEx India declared her as the queen of brand endorsements" - in India.
  • The bit we have about her song—"The song was a commercial success, selling more than 130,000 copies in the first week after its release, and was certified triple platinum in India"—implies that it saw success across the board but particularly in India. A check of the source indicates that it sold 130,000 copies in the first week in India, and "had been [slow] to catch on" in the US. This needs more careful phrasing. Further, the portion "was certified triple platinum in India" is cited to an interview in which this assertion is only made by Chopra herself, as a direct quotation; a reliable independent source is needed here.
• "the song was released to iTunes Store" - the iTunes Store, please.
• "In 2007, Chopra judged the Miss India pageant" - this rather implies it was a one-[wo]man job; can we say she was a judge of, or one of x judges?
• Can we have DesiHits either consistently with or consistently without the exclamation mark?
• "Chopra has often featured on Rediff.com's annual listing of "Bollywood's Best Actress" - surely this is Bollywood's Best Actresses?
• A quoted phrase (as opposed to a quoted sentence) should not include ending punctuation inside; please fix "shows no promise." so that the full stop is outside the quote.
• The second paragraph of the Philanthropy section tends toward the hagiographic and needs work. Referring to Chopra as "The star" is not exactly encyclopedic. Further, mentioning that she has supported a zoo by adopting animals would be reasonable—giving the names of said animals and providing the precise amount she donated is entirely trivial.
• Is there no more recent source for the Endorsements statement ("Chopra has a number of endorsements and in this respect she is one of the highest paid Bollywood actresses"), which is cited to a source fully two years old?

I believe that these points are all now addressed. BollyJeff | talk 00:36, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

I would like to see a few more source spotchecks done by a reviewer, to ensure that sources are being properly represented (see my comment above about the song, and my earlier review on the article talk page). Altogether this is in pretty good shape. Maralia (talk) 20:38, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

These issues have been resolved to my satisfaction. I'm going to give the article another read-through. Maralia (talk) 16:58, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Comments – Read through the Column writing section, and will try to read the rest within a couple of days.

• "She earned critical appraisal for her portrayal of a seductress...". I'm pretty sure that "appraisal" is meant to be "praise", but I don't know how they term it in India. Seems odd to me, though.
• Debut and breakthrough: "and a nomination for Filmfare Best Supporting Actress Award." Needs "the" before the award name.
• Similar tweak is needed at the end of this subsection.
• Critical acclaim: "for which she was being considered for inclusion in the Guinness World Records book for being the first film actress...". I never like to see a prose redundancy like "being" is here, especially when the first one isn't needed and can be removed without doing anything else.
• "and" is needed before "performing at live shows including the Miss India pageant".
• General comment: There are a lot of paragraphs that start with "Chopra" or "In xxxx". Some more variety would be nice for the sake of the prose.
• Recent work: If "box-office" has a hyphen elsewhere, it should in the second paragraph here as well. Giants2008 (Talk) 02:32, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Fixed most of the points.Prashant  ✉  03:47, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

I have addressed the rest. Thank you. BollyJeff | talk 14:01, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

• Philanthropy: "She also appeared at the launch a of campaign...". "a" and "of" need to be reversed.
• Public image and personal life: "Chopra was featured on Verve list of most powerful women in 2009 and 2010." "Verve" → "Verve's"?
• ""is talking about my personal life." and said...". Can't have a period followed like this. For the sake of the sentence, you might consider adjusting the punctuation in the quote; we are allowed to make reasonable style changes like this.
• All caps in refs 74 and 84 need fixing. Giants2008 (Talk) 03:25, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Done. BollyJeff | talk 12:37, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

• Support – Since my comments have all been addressed, I'll offer my backing now. Giants2008 (Talk) 00:05, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Quick comments – Just a few initial comments for now; more to come! While I was reading the article, I noticed that there were several prose issues. I'll take a stab at it and see what I can do!

• I notice that the article has some Soft 404 link problems. Please see its Checklinks entry! You might want to consider fixing the other links too! Some of them change domains! -- Bollywood Dreamz ^talk 01:00, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
• Majority, if not all, of the sources used are reliable. However, I did notice the use of some unreliable ones like Radiosargam, Planet Bollywood, Glamsham—please replace them! -- Bollywood Dreamz ^talk 20:25, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

These first two items are done. Checklinks now runs spotless. BollyJeff | talk 02:04, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

• In the "Early life and pageantry" section, it states that Chopra began receiving film offers after she was crowned Miss World. However, in the following section, it goes on to say that she "started getting film offers right after Miss India and before Miss World". This confusion needs to be cleared up! -- Bollywood Dreamz ^talk 01:20, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. This has been fixed. BollyJeff | talk 02:21, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Oppose. I found the article's fragmentary writing style (She did this ... she did that ... she did the other ...) rather difficult to read. One example of what I'm talking about: "Her personal website, iampriyankachopra.com, was opened in August 2010. Chopra lives with her family and Brando, her dog. Chopra has a tattoo on her wrist that reads "Daddy's lil girl", referring to her loving relationship with her father." Added to which there seems little effort to gather related information together. For instance, that piece of trivia about her tattoo really belongs with the rest of the material on her relationship with her family members. Sorry. George Ponderevo (talk) 15:28, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Very interesting. These were my exact comments (She did this ... she did that) to the copy editor from the WP:GOCE who worked on this at the time; see. The article was a more flowery read prior, but I deferred to their judgement. Seems like you can't please everyone. I will try to address your specific comments as best I can. BollyJeff | talk 15:52, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

I hadn't seen that, but it is indeed interesting that you had the same impression as I did; I'm not sure that the GOCE copyeditor really did you any favours. What's really needed is to get some coherent flow back into the text. I can't make any promises, but I make take a look at one or two of the sections later to see what can be done. I can see that Priyanka Chopra is a significant figure in Indian cinema, and it pains me to have to oppose at this time, but I really can't see how this meets the "engaging, even professional prose" requirement as it stands. George Ponderevo (talk) 17:39, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

After our edits to the Public image and personal life section, I have gone back over several other sections to try and make it a more engaging read. BollyJeff | talk 00:02, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Okay, myself and a couple other editors have now gone through the whole article again to give it a better flow. BollyJeff | talk 02:44, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

• Support – The article has improved since its nomination. I thinks, it meets the criteria now. Excellent work from BollyJeff! Zia Khan 16:04, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

• Support : As one of the contributors (the main contributor is BollyJeff) of the article, I believe the article has improved a lot since its nomination. The article meets Wikipedia:Featured article criteria; it's well-written, comprehensive, well-sourced, neutral, stable, properly formatted and constantly up-to-date.Prashant talk 17:30, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Delegate's closing comment - Indeed the article has improved since the nomination, but the prose is still not to the required FA standard. It needs more work, preferably from an uninvolved editor who can bring some strategic distance. This is best done away from the pressure of FAC. Graham Colm (talk) 23:28, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

• Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Graham Colm (talk) 23:28, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Ian Rose 10:04, 15 March 2013 (UTC) [3].

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Zaian War

Nominator(s): Dumelow (talk) 09:56, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

I have been working on this article on and off for the past two and a bit years. I feel it is now as complete as I can make it and a potential FA. It recently passed a MilHist A-class review and was peer-reviewed prior to that. It has been almost four years since my last FAC so I might be a little rusty on the guidelines! I tend to be quite busy during the week but will catch up on any comments here at the weekends. Many thanks, I hope you enjoy reading the article - Dumelow (talk) 09:56, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Support on prose per standard disclaimer, after some tweaks. I've looked at the changes made since I reviewed this for A-class. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 03:07, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Sources and images - spotchecks not done

• File:General_Lyautey-Pirou-img_3150.jpg: page number? Any idea of date photo was taken?

I didn't upload so I don't know what page number it came from. I have taken a look at the photo and dated it to 1908-9 as Lyautey is wearing the insignia of a grand officier of the Legion of Honour (which he was awarded in 1908) and the photographer died in 1909 - Dumelow (talk) 09:01, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

• File:030Arab.jpg: source link appears dead. When/where was this first published?

I was not the uploader so cannot be sure. I have been troubled by this image for some time, not knowing the date or place of publication/creation and the multiple licenses makes it hard to defend as definitely PD. As it is only tangential to the article I have removed it - Dumelow (talk) 09:14, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

• FN86: page?

Not sure, the Google Books preview does not provide page numbers and I do not own a physical copy of this book - Dumelow (talk) 08:28, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

• Per WP:SCHOLARSHIP, what makes Lázaro a high-quality reliable source? Nikkimaria (talk) 13:41, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

See his bio here. He is a doctor of history and an associate professor at Santa Clara University with peer reviewed publications and a couple of history books to his name - Dumelow (talk) 08:28, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

• Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Graham Colm (talk) 14:29, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Ian Rose 10:04, 15 March 2013 (UTC) [4].

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Camouflage

Nominator(s): Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:57, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because I believe the article now represents a helpful overview of a large topic of wide interest. The 'Camouflage' navbox shows that this article sits in a tree of articles, of which Military camouflage and Operation Bertram are also good articles, and others such as Countershading and Ship camouflage are now covered in detail. The function of the 'Camouflage' article itself is thus to provide a concise summary and overview of the whole topic. For this reason it covers a wide range of mechanisms, many with subsidiary articles, and both animal and military camouflage. Where mechanisms may be hard to grasp, they are explained graphically in specially drawn diagrams, such as for 'Eliminating shadow', 'Motion camouflage', and 'Counterillumination'. Since the article is referenced for general interest, it summarizes the historical development of camouflage. It does this both by calling out articles on pioneering books such as those of Abbott Thayer and Hugh Cott, and by summarizing the history of military camouflage. Finally, it provides a wide but carefully chosen set of images, nearly all from Commons, illustrating each aspect of this especially visual topic. It has been found necessary to group the images in galleries to keep them conveniently close to the sections that they illustrate. The bibliography is grouped for easy access by readers with different interests. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:57, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Comments by Grandiose

• I don't understand the need for the rather unusual approach taken to images in the article, particularly in the "History" section (since I can't see a reason to depart from regular principles there). Why so many images? We don't have to have pictures of all these people, and it breaks up the flow in my opinion.

--- all people images removed; other images have been culled.

: Thank you, this does need explaining. The topic is about hiding from view, often in plain sight, so it is necessarily and essentially visual. Accordingly each aspect and mechanism of camouflage is illustrated to show what is done and why. I don't have any special attachment to galleries, so if anyone knows a better way to present the images I'm happy to go with it.

In the History section, your point has more force, I agree. I felt it would be helpful to readers actually to see who did what, to put a face and name to each topic, such as Thayer and countershading. We could remove the people, but that would take away from the history the people who made it happen. Of course that could become a subsidiary article, 'History of camouflage' if you prefer. I've removed the portraits from History.Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:10, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

• I just picked one image out to explain: File:Andre Mare Camouflaged Iron Observation Tree (The Elm at Vermezeele) 1916.jpg. Which is the country of origin? Is the (underlying) work in the public domain in the country of origin? Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 10:30, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

This image has a non-free usage rationale. Mare was French. If the image, or rather the notebook of which it forms part, counts as having been published then its pre-1923 date means it is public domain and it can be moved to Commons. Since it was unclear to me I treated it as non-free. Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:00, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I think you have made a mistake in your understanding somewhere. The file does not have a fair use rationale. It merely is somewhat unclear. It can stay on en.wiki if it is correctly licensed for the US, which it is. It should not be moved to Commons without a French rationale and, for FA purposes, this should be clearly indicated so the reader of the file description is not in doubt. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 14:25, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Oh I'm sorry, the description has been updated recently, by bot and human, so my NFUR is now only in the history. I have put a comment on the image description page as requested. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:36, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Quick question how many non-free images are used in the article?—indopug (talk) 13:04, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

9 right now. If we remove 3 portraits, 65. 21 could go to Commons (Yehudi lights by US military; Dazzle Ball, 1919), leaving 43. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:24, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Comments by Hchc2009:

• I'd oppose on the basis of the sheer number of images; in one case, as many as six images for a single paragraph section. The result detracts from the underlying article, which I generally enjoyed. Hchc2009 (talk) 19:44, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Have reduced the no. of images per row, max 5. Have culled images. Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:30, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

It still looks very busy indeed on my screen, but that may just be the size of the monitor etc. I'm withdrawing my opposition, but I can't move to a support position because of that. Hchc2009 (talk) 20:16, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Delegate's comment — There are too many images. This one in particular is purely decorative. File:Aline Campos 1c.jpg. I cannot see this candidate succeeding without a radical cull. A few carefully chosen images should be enough to illustrate the facts. Graham Colm (talk) 23:31, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Thankyou for the guidance. Images culled. Chiswick Chap (talk) 00:51, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Comments

• Can the publication dates of books be placed after the books' names in parentheses? For example "the 1909 book Concealing-Coloration in the Animal Kingdom" → "the book Concealing-Coloration in the Animal Kingdom (1909)" --- done
• "He showed by experiment that swallowtailed moth pupae (chrysalises) were camouflaged to match the backgrounds they were reared on as larvae (caterpillars)." → "He showed, by experiment, that swallowtailed moth pupae (chrysalises) were camouflaged to match the backgrounds on which they were reared as larvae (caterpillars)." --- done
• "British army" → "British Army" --- done
• "calves die before their first birthday." → "calves die within a year." --- done
• "influenced Fashion from the time of the first world war onwards." → "influenced fashion for the time from the First World War onwards."
• "In 1919, Chelsea Arts Club held a "Dazzle Ball". Those attending wore dazzle-patterned black and white clothing." Why is "Dazzle Ball" in caps? I suggest "In 1919, the attendants of a "dazzle ball", hosted by the Chelsea Arts Club, wore dazzle-patterned black and white clothing." --- done
• "Illustrated London News" Italicise. --- done
• "1885-1932" and "first world war" MOS. --- done
• "His 1973 screenprint of a leafily-camouflaged tank, Arcadia, 1973" Repetition of 1973. --- done
• "In the United States in the late 1960s and early 1970s, military clothing was often worn by anti-war protestors as a symbol of political protest" → "During the late 1960s and early 1970s in the United States, anti-war protestors often wore military clothing during demonstrations against the American involvement in the Vietnam War." 1) Am I right in assuming that the protesters were against the Vietnam War, or were they demonstrating against wars in general? 2) I don't understand how camouflage clothing was used as a symbol of political protest, wouldn't it make sense to not wear camouflage, since they were anti-war? --- done. Clarified with "ironically".
• "plastic branches (see illustration)" What illustration? --- done

---Sp33dyphil ©^hat_ontributions 05:13, 6 February 2013 (UTC) --- done, Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:25, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Resolved comments Oppose. This article suffers from problems both at the organizational level and the prose level. The article has significantly improved since the start of the FAC. My resolved comments have been moved to the FAC talk page to reduce clutter. There may be issues that I have missed, so I encourage other reviewers to apply a critical eye to the article. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 18:53, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done

• "patterns such as "Berlin camouflage" are sometimes painted on vehicles intended for urban use" - source? --- removed
• FN1: publisher, access date? --- done
• FN2: page formatting --- done
• Bibliography needs cleaning up. Don't mix cited and uncited sources. --- split off 'Further reading' section
• FN6: publisher? Several sources seem to be missing this
• Be consistent in whether you include locations for books --- done
• FN6: for direct quotes page numbers are essential --- done
• FN7: page(s)?
• FN8: formatting
• FN9: page formatting --- done
• FN10, 11: publisher?
• FN12: italics, missing page number
• Use a consistent page formatting --- done
• Be consistent in what order information is presented in citations.

Give up and oppose - sorry, but the citations are just too messy for me to keep reviewing them at this point. Please make them consistent and include required information. Also, on a quick look I'm seeing WP:MOS errors in the article text, so that should be something else you look at for consistency. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:58, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

MOS issues so far detected have been done.

page refs formatted

bibliography restructured

other ref issues being addressed by reviewer.

Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:39, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Update: okay, I've fixed all issues with citations and MOS that I could find, and have also done some copy-editing of the prose and fixed a few images. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:57, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you so much, it's appreciated. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:15, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Comments.

• "camouflet, a French term meaning blow smoke in someone's face.": It means "affront" these days, and I'm pretty sure it would have to be a noun no matter how far back you go (and thus couldn't mean "blow smoke"). - Dank (push to talk) 19:12, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

--- Indeed it's plainly a noun. Reworded as 'Smoke blown...' We did have 'as a practical joke' in there at one point, which goes with the 'affront'.

• "Camouflage is a set of methods": Avoid non-falsifiable statements. (How would it not be a set?). I'd go with: any method.

--- reworded as 'the concealment ... by any method...'

• That's all for now. - Dank (push to talk) 19:19, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Many thanks. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:47, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Concern I'm seeing some rather fundamental problems with organization and POV of the article. The current texts seems to be quite too heavily dominated by military camouflage. For example, far more than half of the illustrations are of soldiers and military equipment. And this is rather difficult to understand, since there is a perfectly fine stand-alone sub-article for military camouflage. This is most obvious by sections like "Dazzle painting" (obvious military application, but sorted independently), "Fashion, art and society" (inspiration by military) and "Non-military camouflage" (the dead giveaway). Peter ^Isotalo 21:17, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

--- Thank you. This is an artefact of this FAC, which has removed a large number of animal images; the article was predominantly zoological, balanced by a mil summary (after all, the term camouflage comes from World War I), with no POV to mil. Similarly the title 'non-military...' is of FAC vintage, have replaced it with 'Civil applications'. 'Dazzle' too covers both Zebra and Dazzle ship, not a mil section; retitling to 'Distraction'. Have replaced ship image with zebra, snow overalls with ptarmigan. On the organization question, please see discussion above, which is ongoing I believe this has now been satisfactorily addressed.

--- Other images and balance: please see "Reorganisation" above

--- Comments by DexDor on Camouflage's talk page. DexDor reports that for technical reasons and the length of this FAC he has had to comment on the Talk page instead. I have responded to his comments there.

• Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Graham Colm (talk) 14:29, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Ian Rose 10:04, 15 March 2013 (UTC) [5].

---

Greed (film)

Nominator(s): Deoliveirafan (talk) 03:58, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because a lot of work has gone into the article from several editors who all deserve credit for it. I think it is currently in great shape and would be an interesting choice as a Featured Article. I'm willing to work on the page if requested, but may need a little time to re-order my sources from the local library. Deoliveirafan (talk) 03:58, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

• 'Tend to oppose' The plot section is huge, and does not follow WP:FILMPLOT.--Dwaipayan (talk) 16:43, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
  • If it was shortened would you have any other objections?--Deoliveirafan (talk) 03:14, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

• I have not read other parts of the article. My objection was solely based on the plot section. If the plot is shortened, I would remove my oppose.--Dwaipayan (talk) 04:06, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

OK, I'll have it shorter by this weekend. Also, you should read the rest at this point. The irony of all this is funny.--Deoliveirafan (talk) 03:12, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Its shorter now.--Deoliveirafan (talk) 20:05, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

• Any takers?--Deoliveirafan (talk) 02:08, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

• I struck out my potential oppose which was solely based on the length of the plot section. It is shorter now, although may not strictly follow the guideline, but that is not a major problem perhaps. The lead is fascinating. I have not read the rest of the article yet. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 03:11, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

• Comment More on plot: Do we really need the first paragraph (how McTeague's mother pleads Potter the dentist etc)? This seems not to be related to the actual plot/theme of the film. Cannot we begin with something like, "McTeague is a dentist in San Francisco..."

  It could go, but I'd rather not cut it. In the original cut these scenes took up the first hour of the film.--Deoliveirafan (talk) 21:45, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

• "As they wait for an opening, Trina buys a lottery ticket from Maria." Who is Maria?--Dwaipayan (talk) 18:22, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

• A suggestion for fixing this second point is at Talk:Greed (film)#Maria in the plot. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 19:10, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

• I just read that post in the talk page. I agree that it can be left as "As they wait for an opening, Trina buys a lottery ticket." Maria, when she is mentioned in the subplot, has a proper introduction (including the fact that she sold the lottery ticket to Trina). And before that subplot, Maria is not mentioned in the plot anymore. So, this sounds good.--Dwaipayan (talk) 19:15, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

• done --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:16, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

• Comment
• "Von Stroheim's interest in McTeague can be traced back to January 1920..." What is McTeague. You have not mentioned it is a book. (Yes, you did mention that in the lead, but not in the body of the article yet).

• This might be fixed simply by changing it from "Von Stroheim's interest in McTeague" to "Von Stroheim's interest in the novel McTeague", but if the body of the article must stand alone from the lead completely, then it needs to be recast by mentioning the novel first. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:16, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

• Yes; and the sentence "McTeague was first published in 1899 and was inspired by an October 1893 murder case in which a poor husband with a history of beating his wife finally stole her money and stabbed her to death at her workplace in San Francisco" should be moved from Theme to the beginning of "Background" section.--Dwaipayan (talk) 01:43, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

• I strongly disagree. It relates more to the themes of the film and I think is better where it is.--Deoliveirafan (talk) 21:45, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

• Ok, no problem.--Dwaipayan (talk) 22:20, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

• The lead says the film is based on the novel McTeague, but that is not mentioned in the body of the article.

• done--Deoliveirafan (talk) 21:45, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

• "He had previously lived in San Francisco shortly after moving to the US in the early 1910s". Why is it important to know that he lived in San Francisco?

  As von Stroheim is so central to the entire tale, I think it's useful to have this small added element of biographical info. It certainly was for me, reading it for the first time as someone who had neither heard of the film nor heard of von Stroheim. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:16, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

  I agree, every source on the film mentions some aspect of this part of von Stroheim's life.

• , in that case the article should mention why staying in San Francisco was important in his life/career/this film. Did he do something while in SF that led to this film making? I mean, you mention he lived in SF in the initial period, so perhaps he moved somewhere else after that. Why is that not important, too? --Dwaipayan (talk) 22:20, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

• The first paragraph of "Background and writing" in this version has three sentences which seem completely disconnected in their content or theme. Why are these three sentences come in this way?

• Which three sentences?--Deoliveirafan (talk) 21:45, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

• In this version, the first two sentences (Greed is based upon American author Frank Norris's 1899 novel McTeague. Von Stroheim's interest in McTeague can be traced back to January 1920 when he told a journalist that he wanted to film the novel) are fine and flows nice. However, the nest two sentences (He had previously lived in San Francisco shortly after moving to the US in the early 1910s.[6] His firing by Universal's Irving Thalberg on October 6, 1922 while working on Merry-Go-Round was an unprecedented event in Hollywood, bringing in a new era in which the producer and the studio had power over artists and directors) how are they connected to the previous two sentences. A connection should be there. IMO, if the importance of San Francisco (as discussed above in a point) is established, the staying in SF sentence would become ok. But a context/background of the firing would be needed for un-halted reading of this paragraph. Otherwise, the last two sentences appear as two disjointed ideas forcefully placed in that paragraph.--Dwaipayan (talk) 22:20, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

• "His firing by Thalberg..." Who is Thalberg?

• done--Deoliveirafan (talk) 21:45, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

• "Goldwyn had been run by Abe Lehr since March 1922 and Lehr had publicly promised that "each director will have his own staff and will be given every facility in putting into production his own individuality and personality. He will have the co-operation of the department heads of the Culver City studio, but each unit will be separate unto itself." This whole long quote seems completely unnecessary in an article about this film.

• Suggest cutting it to 'Goldwyn had been run by Abe Lehr since March 1922 and Lehr had publicly promised that "each director will have his own staff and will be given every facility in putting into production his own individuality and personality"' --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:16, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

• done--Deoliveirafan (talk) 21:45, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

• "...have reformed - or surrendered - for it is..." Endash with space, or, emdash.

• done--Deoliveirafan (talk) 21:45, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

• "Before shooting began, von Stroheim told a reporter, "it is possible to tell a great story in motion pictures in such a way that the spectator forgets he is looking at beauteous Gertie Gefelta the producer's pet and discovers himself intensely interested, just as if he were looking out of a window at life itself. He will come to believe that what he is gazing at is real — a cameraman was present in the household and nobody knew it. They went on in their daily life with their joys, fun and tragedies and the camera stole it all, holding it up afterward for all to see" Again, a big quote. Please explicitly establish its connection with the film, or remove/summarize.

• It relates to von Stroheim's style and beliefs as a filmmaker. I can't see a way to summarize it.--Deoliveirafan (talk) 21:45, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

• You dont necessarily need to summarize, but establish the connection. Indeed you have established the connection while replying here. That it reflects his belief as a filmmaker. So, perhaps you can add that bit, that it was his principle/idea of film-making.--Dwaipayan (talk) 22:20, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

• "He also attended society functions in town..." How is this important to the film article?

• It relates to the amount of research that von Stroheim put into the film in order to get authenticity. I think its clear.--Deoliveirafan (talk) 21:45, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

• Then you should mention that he was researching the social scenario. It is not unusual that a director would attend social functions etc, and that probably does not need mention. But if he was doing that to do pre-production research, definitely that should be mentioned.--Dwaipayan (talk) 22:20, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

• "he even rented the buildings from the novel's real-life inspirations for the film...". Means there were real people on whom the novel was based?

• Would it work better as "he rented some of the actual buildings that had inspired scenes in the novel"? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:16, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

• Yes, your suggested version is probably better.--Dwaipayan (talk) 04:16, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

• done--Deoliveirafan (talk) 21:45, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

• Giving the present-day equivalent of the amount of 5000 dollars would be helpful for the readers.

• done--Deoliveirafan (talk) 21:45, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

^Please provide a source how you converted the 5,000 dollars to present-day equivalent.

I can't find a web source that creates a unique url for the calculation. Could I just add a link to the inflation calculator?--Deoliveirafan (talk) 01:02, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

• Not sure. Probably providing an explanatory note that a certain inflation calculator was used (with url of the online calculator) to calculate the present value would be enough.--Dwaipayan (talk) 14:22, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

--Dwaipayan (talk) 19:36, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

• Hey Demiurge1000, thanks for taking care of some of these and sorry for not following through on the Maria concern. I will be able to work on this either a little bit every day or all at once on Friday. But most of these concerns should be easy to address so it shouldn't take long....once I find the time and catch up on sleep.--Deoliveirafan (talk) 03:30, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

• Just a query (may not be important for this article), do we know why was he fired by Thalberg?--Dwaipayan (talk) 22:20, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

• It was because he was over budget and over schedule, which is now (basically) mentioned in the article.--Deoliveirafan (talk) 01:14, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

• Is "sometime-actor" an usual term?--Dwaipayan (talk) 14:22, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

  Hey, I'll finish this up Friday or Saturday.--Deoliveirafan (talk) 02:30, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

  OK, I think the concerns above have been addressed.--Deoliveirafan (talk) 22:33, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

• The lead in this version has six paragraphs, three of them pretty small paragraphs. If possible, please consider merging so that the lead has less number of paragraphs, and, more importantly, we have less of such small choppy paragraphs.--Dwaipayan (talk) 00:49, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

  I've always agreed. I'm just going to fix these in the entire article.--Deoliveirafan (talk) 01:01, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

• Support except criteria 1a and 1c.

I do not have the capacity to judge the article against criterion 1a, as I do not use a professional level English. However, for an user with advanced level of English, the article is quite engaging, and lucid. I did not verify the references; so unable to comment on criterion 1c. Otherwise, the article is very nice, has a fascinating lead. It aroused in me a real interest in this exceptional film. Nice work, regards, --Dwaipayan (talk) 23:37, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

• Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Graham Colm (talk) 14:30, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

  What does that mean?--Deoliveirafan (talk) 02:11, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by GrahamColm 10:01, 13 March 2013 (UTC) [6].

---

God of War (video game)

Nominator(s): JDC808 ♫ 23:37, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article with permission from Graham Colm as given here. In the last nomination (also check the Talk page as some comments were moved there), the article received 3 supports and 1 oppose. The opposition was based on prose of the article (as that reviewer is not a "gamer" and some language she did not understand). In her last comment, she said the article was close. I'm hoping that the work that has been done since that comment has appeased her last comment (the nomination was closed before she could respond and she hasn't responded to a request to post on the article's Talk page). JDC808 ♫ 23:37, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Brief comments

• Support with one observation. The lede contains the sentence "As of June 2012, the game has sold more than 4.6 million copies worldwide." I assume this is physical copies? If so the date part is unlikely to change given the PS2 is no longer made, so it seems like you are making extra work for yourself by adding a dated statement that needs to be maintained for something that may never change. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 00:34, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the support! It is true that the PS2 copy will never be made again. The date is because that's when Sony released the most up-to-date data for its sales (and the other games in the series). --JDC808 ♫ 00:59, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support Per the previous FAC. — ΛΧΣ²¹ 01:19, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks again. --JDC808 ♫ 07:00, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Image check - all OK (problem image replaced and fair-use improved)Fair-use rationale of second image needs some work, but not unsolvable (infobox ok).

File:GOW_Gameplay_Kratos_vs_Hydra.jpg - has "To show an example of the game in play." as purpose. WP:NFCC #8 requires an image to "significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding.". A mere example image without additional context does not significantly increase readers' understanding. Some suggestions to improve the situation:

• If the graphics are especially noteworthy (new graphic engine, special graphic style, ...?), note that in the rationale and caption.
• Use another image instead with more specific features (f.e. the article discusses the QTE feature, which could use some visual help to grasp the concept. Or maybe the Rage function, if you can get a good shot of it.). The current image basically just shows the hero and a monster, the reader doesn't need the image to understand that.
• Flesh out the caption a bit and point out specific, interesting details of the image.

The videogame template's proposed rationales are too generic and probably only meant as first pointers. WP:NFCC clearly asks for specific, detailed rationales, so you need to adapt and expand them for your current usage. GermanJoe (talk) 09:01, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

I replaced the image with one that was being used on the series page and fleshed out the caption. --JDC808 ♫ 21:51, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

The new image is a better choice for fair-use. Tweaked the rationale (you need a second, separate one for each article) and caption a bit more. All OK. GermanJoe (talk) 11:39, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support pending the image rationale fixes requested by GermanJoe. I copy edited a few bits just now, and my comments in the previous FAC resolved a few source issues in the development section. I also checked sources in the release and awards sections in that FAC, for a total of 16 sources checked. I just checked the three sources in the soundtrack section, and those all looked fine as well. —Torchiest ^talk_edits 17:38, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks again. --JDC808 ♫ 21:51, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support - Per previous FAC rationale.--Tærkast (Discuss) 21:50, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support - in accordance with the previous FAC rationale. Looks good to me. Hounder4 (Talk) 09:27, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks to both. --JDC808 ♫ 18:19, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Comments from SandyGeorgia

We still have the acronym issue I mentioned in the last FAC:

• God of War is a third person action-adventure video game developed by SCE Santa Monica Studio and published by Sony Computer Entertainment.

• So, presumably SCE is Sony Computer Entertainment, but that is never stated. Then we have SCEI in an infobox. And we have SCEA. So why don't we define SCE? How about the first sentence as something like this?

• God of War is a third person action-adventure video game published by Sony Computer Entertainment (SCE) and developed by SCE Santa Monica Studio.

• That would make it clear that all of the "SCE"s in the article refer to Sony Computer Entertainment.

Done. --JDC808 ♫ 21:51, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

This is in the second para of the lead. Without reading the article, I can't tell who the "who is responsible" refers to. Is Ares responsible for Kratos murdering his family? Without reading the article, that confuses. After reading the article, I understand, but many people will read only the lead. The sentence needs more clarity.

• Kratos is tasked by the goddess Athena with killing Ares, the God of War, who is responsible for Kratos' accidental murder of his family.

I'm a bit stumped on this one because I don't know how it's not clear, since "who is responsible" falls right after "Ares, the God of War." Would it help if "the God of War" came before "Ares"? --JDC808 ♫ 21:51, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Torchiest just did a copy/edit to the sentence. It now reads "The goddess Athena tasks Kratos with killing Ares, the eponymous God of War, who is responsible for Kratos' accidental murder of his family." --JDC808 ♫ 21:55, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

That helps ... it's just confusing because someone made someone else accidentally kill his family ... not intuitive. Anyway, that's better I guess. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:59, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm not going to oppose this time because these video game articles are just too frustrating; I wish an independent, non-gamer would routinely copyedit them, but I don't have time to go through them line-by-line. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:00, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Neil916

Oppose on prose and comprehensiveness issues. The article is obviously and naturally written by editors who are intimately familiar with the game. As someone who has never seen the game, however, I as the reader seeking information about the subject am left with many more questions than answers from the article, in particular with the description of the game's plot and interface. The article could be organized better and expanded further. A smattering of examples follows, this list is not comprehensive and it is my opinion that the article needs more work than can be accomplished within the timeframe of a FAC. Neil916 (Talk) 08:36, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

• Lead
  • Consider the lead to be a bird's eye view of the subject matter, such as if I click on a wikilink to this article just to find out what the heck God of War (video game) is. I'll glance at the lead section to get an overview, and click back once I know. Or, I'll get sucked into the article and abandon the first one. Whatever. But the lead section should be very concise and should convey the most relevant information in as short a time as possible. The first paragraph contains information about other games in the series including a prequel in development, before telling the reader anything about the game itself.

Okay, switched around. --JDC808 ♫ 23:58, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

• The first paragraph presents as a wall of blue text, with terms like "gameplay", "game controller", "special powers" and "puzzles" wikilinked. It is overlinked in my opinion.

Delinked some. They were linked so that a non-gamer would understand what those terms meant, or what they were referring to. --JDC808 ♫ 23:58, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

• The word "eponymous" was used twice in the first two paragraphs of the article. I didn't know what it meant, so I had to look it up. The definition I got was "giving one's name to a tribe, place, etc.: Romulus, the eponymous founder of Rome.". I don't understand the use of the word to describe Ares as the eponymous God of War. Perhaps the fancy words could be abandoned in favor of phrases that are easier for the reader to understand (and for the writers to use in the correct context?)

The definition of how it's used is "of, relating to, or being the person or thing for whom or which something is named : of, relating to, or being an eponym."

• Ares was responsible for Kratos' accidental murder of his family? What does that mean? Back to the dictionary. Murder is "the unlawful killing, with malice aforethought, of another person." How does one accidentally murder someone?

This is explained in the Plot section. The main character, Kratos, attacked a village and Ares secretly transported his family to its temple. Kratos went on a rampage and blindly killed all in the temple and when the carnage was over, he realized he had killed his family. Ares purposely put them there for that to happen. Kratos did not intend to murder them, that why it says accidental. --JDC808 ♫ 23:58, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Torchiest has replaced "murder" with "killing" (..."who is responsible for Kratos' accidental killing of his family.") --JDC808 ♫ 21:24, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

• "As Ares ravages Athens,..." If that fact is important enough to mention in the lead, you should also give a hint of why Ares is ravaging Athens. The only other hint about this in the rest of the article is a brief mention when describing the various battlefields of the game.

Clarified.

• "Chronologically, God of War is the third chapter in the series, which focuses on vengeance as its central theme.". This is out of place in the second paragraph of the lead, the rest of the paragraph has nothing to do with the chronology of the series.

Moved.

It was moved, but then replaced with two sentences about the series and the chronology series, and I don't see how they belong in a paragraph where the first three sentences are about gameplay. The information is important, and I don't think it belongs in the first or third paragraph, either, See my comments below under the second read-through. Neil916 (Talk) 09:12, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

They were put together to avoid two small paragraphs. Addressed further in later comments. --JDC808 ♫ 23:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

• The third paragraph of the lead is actually quite good and paints a picture of why the game is relevant in the gaming community.

• Gameplay

• Before even telling the reader what the game is about, the article launches into a detailed description of the weapons, and treasures that can be found in the game. I think some background is needed before diving into such detail. Probably reorganize so the "synopsis" section is above this one.

This organization is a very common layout for most video game articles (I've only seen maybe one or two that haven't used this) and this is the organization that's been laid out by the WP:VG project. --JDC808 ♫ 23:58, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Torchiest has rearranged the sections. --JDC808 ♫ 21:24, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I think it reads much better now. Neil916 (Talk) 09:12, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

• "The player guides Kratos through different environments composing of a series of missions to achieve specific goals". Clunky reading. What kind of mission doesn't have a goal? Composing of a series of missions?

Reword and added enemies to accommodate a later issue. --JDC808 ♫ 23:58, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

• "Kratos' main weapons are the Blades of Chaos: a pair of blades attached to chains wrapped around Kratos' wrists that can be swung around to attack enemies, similar to a kusarigama." I think "weapons" should be singular, since you refer to is as A pair of blades. In any event, it reads poorly.

Do you have a suggestion of how to reword it so that it does not read poorly? --JDC808 ♫ 23:58, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

I know this sentence has been tweaked a couple of times, but it now reads, "Kratos's main weapon is the Blades of Chaos: a pair of blades attached to chains that are wrapped around Kratos's wrists and can be swung around to attack enemies." The "and can be swung around" throws me. How about just breaking it into two, like "Kratos's main weapon is the Blades of Chaos: a pair of blades attached to chains that are wrapped around Kratos's wrists. The blades can be swung around to attack enemies." or something similar? Neil916 (Talk) 11:02, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Fixed with your suggestion. --JDC808 ♫ 17:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

The facts though are incorrect, or at the least they are misleading. The chains are not "wrapped around his wrists" they are permanently seared into his forearms. I suggest changing to "Kratos's main weapon is The Blades of Chaos: a pair of blades attached to chains that are seared into the flesh of his forearms. The blades can be swung around to attack enemies." (Having difficulty finding non-wikia sources, but this fact is mentioned in the game itself. I hope this source may suffice: http://www.swordsofmight.com/god-of-war-blades-of-chaos-replica.aspx)

They are still technically wrapped around his wrists. The plot section states that they were bonded to him by Ares. Plus, "wrapped around his wrists" is probably much easier to visualize than "seared into the flesh of his forearms." If it helps, "wrists" could be changed to "forearms." --JDC808 ♫ 21:02, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

• The first paragraph of this article continues describing various weapons without attaching much significance to them. Why would I, as the player, want to throw lightning bolts, or breathe underwater? What's a rage meter and how does it get full? Oh, I'll find out later in the article about the rage meter, but not really if the rage meter has any function aside from that one spell.

Did some work. --JDC808 ♫ 23:58, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Noted. Some cleanup/copyediting still needs to be done. I'll help with that later. Neil916 (Talk) 09:12, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

"Kratos can learn to use up to four magical abilities, such as Zeus' Fury that allows him to throw lightning bolts, giving him a variety of ways to attack and kill enemies." I kind of assumed that throwing lightning bolts was so the player could attack enemies, but why would I want to throw a lighting bolt instead of just whacking the monster with my Blades of Chaos? Do they have better range? Stronger hits? Greater chances of a knockout? Better/gorier graphics and sound effects? Faster attacks? That's what I was looking for. Same with the Blade of Artemis. It's a different weapon, but does it have some advantages in certain situations over the Blades of Chaos? Are both weapons armed at the same time? I'm kind of curious how Kratos is able to wield a sword when he has chains welded to his wrists, but I don't think that matters in the article. Neil916 (Talk) 11:13, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Added "for better range" with the lightning bolt and put the Artemis blade is separate and gave an example. --JDC808 ♫ 17:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

• What's magic used for in the game? I see if I find a blue orb, I can replenish it, but why would I want to?

Done. --JDC808 ♫ 23:58, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

• "Additionally, the player can find Gorgon Eyes and Phoenix Feathers in plain, neutrally colored chests" as opposed to what color chests? Does the color of a chest show what color orb is in it? If so, describe in more detail.

The orb containing chests. Yes. Done. --JDC808 ♫ 23:58, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

• "The Eyes and Feathers incrementally increases the health and magic meters, respectively," do you mean increasing the maximum value of the health and magic values, or replenish them? I think the first, but I can't tell.

The second half of that sentence (unquoted here) answered this, but have clarified. --JDC808 ♫ 23:58, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

• "Combat includes a quick time event (QTE) feature, also called context sensitive attacks, that is initiated when the player has weakened a strong foe." What foes? The article to this point forgot to mention who the player is fighing, other than a mention of Ares dying at the end. And a Cyclops.

Fixed as noted above.

• "Similar in function to the QTE feature, the game includes a quick time sex mini-game in the form of an encounter with female twins, which has become a regular feature throughout the series." This seems odd to mention in a paragraph that appears to be about combat. Is this sex game a prominent part of the plot of the game? An easter egg?

It starts out describing a feature of the combat, which is the QTE feature. The sex mini-game is played exactly the same way as the QTE feature, except there is no damage caused to the character if you fail. In comparison of being a prominent part of the plot, this would fall more to being an easter egg, but it's not a hidden feature, it's a blatantly obvious feature that has become a regular feature in this series, as stated. --JDC808 ♫ 23:58, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

• "The player may unlock bonus costumes, behind-the-scenes videos, and art galleries as rewards." What are bonus costumes and art galleries and why would a character engaged in combat in Ancient Greece want to own an art gallery?

Fixed. --JDC808 ♫ 23:58, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

• Setting

• "With the exception of flashbacks, the game's events are set between Chains of Olympus and Ghost of Sparta." What does this mean?

It means exactly what it says. Chains of Olympus and Ghost of Sparta are two other games in the series. The game this article is about is set between them. I'll clarify that it's set between the games. --JDC808 ♫ 23:58, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

• The section makes a list of six battle settings, then proceeds to go into further detail about each of them in a different order than it was first introduced. In what order do these various settings appear during gameplay? It is important that three sirens roam the Desert of the Lost Souls? Does the player have to kill them and is that hard to do? Same with Cronos. Friend or foe?

The gameplay order starts in the second paragraph. The first paragraph is saying that there are four main locations and the other two aren't as prominent. Fixed sirens. All Cronos does is crawl with the temple on his back.

First paragraph now also shows gameplay order. --JDC808 ♫ 05:13, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

• Characters

• What is a supporting role? They appear in cinematic sequences? They help the player fight? They fight against the player? The article identifies the characters without making it clear what role they play in the game.

Fixed.

• Plot

• Many of my questions about context are revealed in this section, more than halfway through the article. I think it should come much earlier in the article.
• More nitpicks about wording and prose in this section, but it's not nearly as confusing and disjointed as the earlier sections.

... and more. I could go on but I'm out of energy. Overall, I think this article still needs some considerable reorganization, and rewriting, possibly by an editor familiar with gaming, but not with this game in particular. Neil916 (Talk) 08:36, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the grounds for opposition on comprehensiveness are, as far as I can see it contains all the available information about the game. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 19:32, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Please re-read my comments, I pointed out several instances of information that was missing and/or unclear. Neil916 (Talk) 09:12, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Second read-through, this revision

• Lead

• "Highly regarded for its gameplay, God of War focuses on combo-based combat and quick time events that require the successful completion of game controller actions in timed sequences." Lose the "Highly regarded for its gameplay" part, since the article adequately addressed that point in the third paragraph of the lead and it reads awkwardly. When the article says that the quick time events that require the successful completion game controller actions, I think it means that a successful completion of a particular QTE requires a successful execution of a timed sequence, but it might also mean that certain QTE sequences are required to be completed successfully in order to complete the game. That should be clearer to the reader.

Removed "Highly regarded for its gameplay." I believe I've cleared up the QTE part. --JDC808 ♫ 23:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

• "God of War is the first installment in the series of the same name, for which it is the third chronologically, and includes four sequels and a prequel as of 2012. A second prequel is in development." I still have some problems with these two sentences. First, I think they're far off topic in a paragraph where the other three sentences discuss elements of the game's gameplay. Second, I don't quite get the wording. It is the first installment, but the third chronologically, there are four sequels and a prequel as of 2012. Until the second prequel that is in development is actually released, I think that makes this the second cronologically. The information is important enough to include in the lead, but it's misplaced and confusingly worded as it is. I'd consider a fourth paragraph in the lead about the game's placement in the series.

Although I disagree with some points on confusion, I've expanded on the gameplay, made it a separate paragraph, and I expanded the series part as its own paragraph. --JDC808 ♫ 23:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

• Setting

• "Three sirens roam the desert; their defeat guides warriors through the desert so that they may summon the Titan Cronos and access Pandora's Temple chained to his back." It explains better than before, but is worded badly and wasn't clear enough for me to fix it myself. Is the article trying to say that the defeat of the sirens doesn't kill them, but causes them to guide the player through the desert in order to summon Cronos?

Further clarified. --JDC808 ♫ 23:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

It needs a little more work. It now reads, "killing them releases their soul, which guides warriors through the desert". Do three sirens have one soul? Is it the soul/ghost of the last siren who acts as a guide across the desert? Neil916 (Talk) 10:54, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Added s to soul. --JDC808 ♫ 17:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

• I've made other copyedits to this section directly to the article itself.
• Are the locations listed in the order that the player will encounter each location?

I answered this above with your first comment regarding the locations, but yes, they are in order that player's will encounter them. --JDC808 ♫ 23:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't notice that before. Neil916 (Talk) 10:54, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

• Characters

• Each of the gods and goddesses have their titles capitalized. For example, Athena is listed as the "Goddess of Wisdom", but the Athena article doesn't use that capitalization. I think that each of their titles should be preceeded by "the" as is done with Ares. Athena should be "Athena, the goddess of wisdom", not "Athena, Goddess of Wisdom". I don't think either way is technically correct, it just reads smoother.

It's capitalized because it's their title. I don't fully get why the main articles for the gods don't do it that way, which I find silly. I have gone through and added "the" to each. --JDC808 ♫ 23:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

I still think that's wrong, perhaps someone else can voice an opinion. Neil916 (Talk) 10:54, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

• "...the body burner (Christopher Corey Smith), who allows Kratos to enter Pandora's Temple..." The article has a list of characters with the names of the characters and the name of the voice actor, then all of a sudden it interjects details about the last two characters.

Because they weren't mentioned in the Plot. Have removed. --JDC808 ♫ 23:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

• Gameplay

• "The player guides Kratos through various environments while fighting enemies, such as Gorgons, who come mostly from Greek mythology" According to the Gorgon article, the Gorgons are totally from Greek mythology, I don't understand the "mostly" part.

Mostly as in, not all of the enemies come from Greek mythology. --JDC808 ♫ 23:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

• The article mentions that the game features platforming elements both in the lead and the gameplay section, but other than a mention that there are platforming elements, it doesn't tell me what they are or what their significance is.

Expanded on platforming. --JDC808 ♫ 23:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

• The article mentions that there are puzzles. Provide at least one typical example of a puzzle.

Done. --JDC808 ♫ 23:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm glad you did, because I had visualized something completely different. Neil916 (Talk) 10:54, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

...and more. I've stopped reviewing while in the Gameplay section, I'm out of time this evening, I'll revisit in the next few days. Neil916 (Talk) 09:12, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

• Development

• "Game Director David Jaffe confirmed the game would be a cinematic presentation, and said, "we are doing extensive focus tests, and using data compiled from E3, to find and fix the problem areas" of the cameras." I don't get this. What problems were there with the cameras? Were complaints received from trials at E3? Clarify what he's talking about because up to this point there was nothing mentioned about camera/POV problems.

I'll have to recheck the source. I rechecked the source and put all the information that the source has in regards to the cameras. --JDC808 ♫ 17:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

• The first two sentences of the second paragraph appear to have little to do with the last four paragraphs of that same paragraph. Hard returns are cheap, consider splitting into their own paragraphs, perhaps with an expansion of what the camera problems were.

Will work on. Also, generally I've noticed with VG articles, if there's not enough information on a particular subject, paragraphs are combined in a way like this. --JDC808 ♫ 17:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I split into separate paragraphs. --JDC808 ♫ 20:45, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

• "The team designed two systems of combat: a "macro" system, which gives players the choice between normal combat, magical attacks, and/or using mini games to kill a foe" Whoa, some major information appears to be left out of the gameplay section here. Using minigames to kill a foe? What is that about?

The QTE feature. Clarified. --JDC808 ♫ 17:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

• "Jaffe said the 1981 film Raiders of the Lost Ark inspired the development of God of War" This contradicts the statement that the game was inspired by Clash of the Titans. He didn't have to be inspired by only one or the other, but it left me scratching my head when I read it because I'd just read that he was inspired by Clash of the Titans.

It had said "Raiders also inspired", but someone removed it. "Also" added back. --JDC808 ♫ 17:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

• "but did not want to put the player in the role of an adventurer, referencing The Legend of Zelda." What does that mean?

Zelda puts players in the role of an adventurer, Jaffe did not want to do that with this game. --JDC808 ♫ 17:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

• "but the game "is not innovative or unique, and that's intentional." That quote appears to directly contradict his quote in the third paragraph, "Jaffe said the game would be unique because each puzzle is different".

Yeah, Jaffe is a weird guy. But it does elaborate after that. --JDC808 ♫ 17:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

• "Our system was so shallow that it forced the team to constantly create new content to trapeze the player from one area of interest to the next ... I understand modular game design, and the value of that, but I was feeling that if we didn't step outside those boundaries, at least for me, I was going to get bored." This makes little sense to me what he's saying. I understand it's a direct quote, but it's so confusing that it would probably be better for the article to paraphrase what he was trying to say in a much more coherent manner rather than a direct quote.

Will work on. I direct quoted because I didn't think I could paraphrase it well, and I felt this had more meaning. --JDC808 ♫ 17:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Worked on. --JDC808 ♫ 20:45, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

• Release

• "The game was released on March 22[26] in North America," move citation to after the comma

Will fix. Fixed --JDC808 ♫ 17:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

• "By the end of July, the game was the sixth-best-selling game of 2005" At that point? Or by the end of July the game had already sold enough to cement its place by the end of the year as the sixth-best-selling game of 2005? No, that doesn't make sense. How did it stand at the end of 2005?

Clarified. I've tried finding sources of its sales at that time. This was the only source I could find. --JDC808 ♫ 17:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

• The figure of 4.6 million copies being sold is mentioned in the first paragraph. Does that figure include the 2.4 million copies of the collection, or is it 4.6 million stand-alone copies in addition to 2.4 million copies as part of a collection?

4.6 million is God of War only. I thought it was clear since the first paragraph doesn't mention the collection at all. The collection is a separate release so its sales aren't going to be included in that. That's why the second paragraph says the collection sold 2.4 million. --JDC808 ♫ 17:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

...done for now. Neil916 (Talk) 11:53, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Source spot-check by FutureTrillionaire

Book referencing

There appears to be multiple citations from the "God of War (Instruction manual)" and the book by Stover and Vardeman. The pattern used in the article appears to be that the first citation is stated in the form "SCE Santa Monica Studio, ed. (2005). God of War (Instruction manual). Sony Computer Entertainment. pp. 16-17." while the following are in the form " SCE Santa Monica Studio, ed. (2005), pp. 18–19". I'm not sure if this is the proper way to cite books. I think short citations should be used here.--Futuretrillionaire (talk) 00:07, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Hm. I will look into this. How it's currently being done is the way I had learned (and was acceptable in my last FAC that was promoted). You may be correct. --JDC808 ♫ 03:03, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

On this point, Futuretrillionaire, are you saying all the references, including the first one, should be short, with a separate full citation that is not individually referenced, but is pointed to by all the short ones? Check the way the manual is referenced in God of War: Chains of Olympus, which is the same as here, versus Starflight, which I think has what you want? —Torchiest ^talk_edits 05:18, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

I think the Starflight model is better. I'd like to see in addition to the "references" section a "bibliography" section, where we put the full citation of books without the page numbers. The references section would be where the short citations for the books will be. Again, I'm not sure if the current book citation format is wrong, it just doesn't look good in my opinion.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 17:00, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Will work on. --JDC808 ♫ 23:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Fixed. --JDC808 ♫ 21:18, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Citations

The characters section is supported by 2 sources, both placed at the end of the paragraph. all of the voice actors mentioned in the section are listed in the allgame source except Paul Eiding. Am I correct so assume that he is listed in the manual source? Also the entire plot section lacks citation. At the very least, a citation should be added at the end of each paragraph, even if all the citations come from one source.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 23:56, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Paul Eiding is listed at allgame, they typoed his name as Oaul Eiding, same with Carole Ruggier, should be "ier" not "ler". And yes, he is listed in the manual. As to Plot, it's generally accepted that they're uncited, at least for video game articles (maybe film too). I can try to locate a source. --JDC808 ♫ 00:11, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Interesting, I think you're right. I checked several other featured VG articles, and some of them do not have citations, and some of the ones that do use primary sources (the game itself). Considering this, I suppose citing sources in that section is not necessary.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 00:29, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Yeah. I think the main reason is that unless you cite the game itself, you'd have to use a strategy and unless you own it, you'd have to find one online that can't be edited freely. I think Mahalo is one of the few that can only be edited by site administrators. --JDC808 ♫ 00:38, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Actually, according to Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Sources#Video games, when citing the VG itself, we need to "provide transcripts wherever possible, and enable readers to check the facts themselves by noting which area, level or episode is cited." This seems to imply that we need to add citations for parts relying on primary sources. Also, I think this is helpful, reliable source for the plot summary:[7].(Note: the section links don't appear to be working, but you still access pages with the arrows and manipulating the url)--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 00:49, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Added. --JDC808 ♫ 21:20, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

In the "Release" section, the "June 21 in Europe" is not mentioned in the source. Also, isn't the UK in Europe. This should be clarified, especially for non-gamers. Also, in the "Development" section, shouldn't "macro system" and "micro system" have quotation marks around them? They are terms invented by the developers.--FutureTrillionaire (talk)

Yes, the UK is in Europe, but in the gaming world (at least), it sometimes has a different release from the rest of Europe. I thought we had a source for Europe's release. Removed until then. You may be right on the terms. --JDC808 ♫ 22:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

There seems to be more problems in the "Release section". The date "November 17, 2009" is not mentioned in the source. Also, there's no source for "It was released in Japan on March 18, 2010". The citation placed later in the sentence only refers to Australia.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 21:11, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Fixed. --JDC808 ♫ 22:11, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

One minor issue I'd like to add is that in the awards section, the source calls the award "Best Action Game", not "Action Game of the Year". --FutureTrillionaire (talk) 22:43, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Fixed. --JDC808 ♫ 22:51, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

The soundtrack section contains 2 sources, neither of which mentions "Winnie Waldron" nor "Marcello De Francisci". The sources also don't mention "Sony Computer Entertainment".--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 22:58, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Fixed. --JDC808 ♫ 23:02, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Okay, one last thing. In the film section, I couldn't find the quote "huge-name director" in any of the web sources cited in that paragraph. That leaves only the documentary source. If the quote did come from the doc source, then a citation of the doc should be placed at the end of that sentence containing the quote. If not, either that part needs to be removed, or a source needs to be found for it.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 01:09, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm thinking that the "huge-name director" came from a source that was broken by the time I started working on the page. I've removed the information and put another source. --JDC808 ♫ 04:18, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

• Support nomination - I've done an extensive source spot-check on the web sources used in the article, and all the issues I found have been resolved. I believe this article is ready to become an FA.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 04:25, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! --JDC808 ♫ 04:37, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Wikipedian Penguin

Leaning to oppose: Prose needs some more work, but you're getting there. I can't quibble on too much since I do not scrutinize video game articles too often (I just read them for fun and curiosity). From the lead:

• You need commas after month-day-year dates, such as in here: "The game was first released on March 22, 2005 for the PlayStation 2 (PS2) console."

Fixed. Seems odd to put that slight pause with that example sentence, but if it's the correct way then okay. --JDC808 ♫ 04:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Yep, it's correct styling. It's used for [city], [country/state] phrases too. But not date-month-year dates. Thanks for the fix. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 12:29, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

This is the first time I'd seen this rule as well, but WP:DATE states, "When a date in mdy format appears in the middle of text, include a comma after the year (The weather on September 11, 2001, was clear and warm)." What an odd rule. Neil916 (Talk) 10:36, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

• "It is loosely based on Greek mythology, and is set in Ancient Greece with vengeance as its central theme." – that's more of a motif than a theme.

Okay, I think the developers had said it was the theme at some point, but changed theme to motif. --JDC808 ♫ 04:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

• "The player controls the protagonist Kratos, a Spartan warrior in the service of the Olympian Gods." – "in the service of" → "who serves"?

Changed. --JDC808 ♫ 04:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

• "The goddess Athena tasks Kratos with killing Ares, the God of War for which the game is named and who is responsible for Kratos' accidental killing of his family." – why is "for which the game is named" necessary? It's obvious (and should be "after whom").

There was a shorter phrase being used, but it had caused confusion so it was replaced with that, which I just removed it. --JDC808 ♫ 04:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Torchiest has left a response below, expanding on this. --JDC808 ♫ 05:08, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

• Fused participle: "... God of War focuses on combo-based combat and quick time events requiring the successful completion of timed sequences of game controller actions." – ambiguous what the subject of "requiring" is: God of War or quick time events. If the latter, write "quick time events that require". Same number of syllables, just more grammatically correct. Furthermore, the repetition of "of" is a little unpleasant.

Fixed. --JDC808 ♫ 04:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

• Avoid additive adverb transitions such as "additionally" that do not add anything (that's four "ad" sounds!).

Fixed. --JDC808 ♫ 04:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

• "Additionally, the player can use magical attacks and special powers for alternative combat options." – Should be "as alternative combat options", not "for".

Fixed. --JDC808 ♫ 04:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

• Couldn't saying either "magical attacks" or "special powers" be enough? Are magical attacks not special powers?

Not exactly, there's four magical attacks and a special power (which inreases attack power and makes the character invincible for a short period). Reworded. --JDC808 ♫ 04:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

• Redundancies, like "an array of" here: "Players also solve an array of puzzles and the game features platforming elements." Also avoid vague adjectives of quanity, such as "multiple": "Multiple reviewers have said God of War is one of the best action-adventure games on the PlayStation 2." (Multiple is anything from 2 to, well, a lot.)

I'm not sure what you mean by the redundancy for "an array of". I'm not sure what to replace "multiple" with. --JDC808 ♫ 04:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Remove "an array of" and "multiple". The meaning is still the same. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 12:29, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Removed. --JDC808 ♫ 23:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

• The use of "over a dozen" does not sound very encyclopedic here: "...and it has won over a dozen "Game of the Year" awards." Just go with a simple "several".

Changed. --JDC808 ♫ 04:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

• Unclear: "In addition to its gameplay, God of War has been highly regarded for its graphics, sound, production, presentation, and story." – what do you mean by regarded for its production? Can something be praised for its development stage? In popular music, the word refers to the beat and instrumentation, but not sure about video games. And I'm wondering about the usefulness of this sentence; doesn't that cover pretty much every aspect of a video game? So it was widely regarded for all aspects?

One of the reviewers made a list of everything he thought was excellent and production was on that list. Removed production. To answer the last question, pretty much. --JDC808 ♫ 04:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

• For a quick sample of what's below the lead: "With the exception of flashbacks, the game's events are set between the games, Chains of Olympus and Ghost of Sparta." – second comma just chops the sentence up; there's no pause there, so remove.

Removed. --JDC808 ♫ 04:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Stopped there. Consider another once-over, as there seems to be some odd sentences here and there that need rephrasing. But in general, not bad at all. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 04:00, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

I have to reply to this item: '"The goddess Athena tasks Kratos with killing Ares, the God of War for which the game is named and who is responsible for Kratos' accidental killing of his family." – why is "for which the game is named" necessary? It's obvious (and should be "after whom").'

That sentence has been changed a few times now. The version before the current one said, "The goddess Athena tasks Kratos with killing Ares, the eponymous God of War, who is responsible for Kratos' accidental killing of his family." An editor did not like the word eponymous, finding it too obscure, so the longer phrase was added to explicate the definition. Before that, the sentence said, "Kratos is tasked by the goddess Athena with killing Ares, the God of War, who is responsible for Kratos' accidental murder of his family." An editor did not like the sentence structure, finding the apposition confused how many people were being referred to in the sentence. That was corrected with an active voice and the addition of eponymous to make it clear that "Ares" and "the God of War" are the same person. So I would submit that things that some readers find obvious need more explanation for other editors. I'm certain many readers would not recognize the name Ares. —Torchiest ^talk_edits 05:00, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. I think with the current wording it is clear who Ares is, but I guess we can use dashes or parentheses to make it even clearer. Yes, I think eponymous is a bit odd, but it is also clear that God of War is named after the God of War without having to mention that. I can see why the sentence would cause so much concern, but it seems good now (but like I said, there're always dashes or parentheses if you want). —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]}

All points have been addresses so far. --JDC808 ♫ 23:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm still not quite confident I can withdraw my oppose.

• For example, this is six locations: "There are five locations explored in the game: the Aegean Sea, the ancient city of Athens, the Desert of Lost Souls, the Temple of Pandora, the Underworld, and a brief scene on Mount Olympus."

It had said five main locations, then a brief scene in the last. Neil916, copyedited and changed it to this. Fixed. --JDC808 ♫ 21:06, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• This could be tightened: "The Aegean Sea setting includes a mass of shipwrecked vessels; undead soldiers, harpies, and the Hydra are attacking what remains of the [remaining] living soldiers."

Fixed. --JDC808 ♫ 21:06, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• Repetition of "sirens": " Three sirens roam the desert; killing the sirens releases their soul, which guides warriors through the desert so that they may summon the Titan Cronos and gain access to Pandora's Temple." – don't see why one can't be converted to "them".

Done. --JDC808 ♫ 21:06, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• This seems like plot, not setting: "Zeus chained the temple to Cronos' back as punishment for his role in the Great War."

Yeah, it just seemed unnecessary to put in the Plot and better served here. If you think it would be better served in the Plot, I will move it accordingly. --JDC808 ♫ 21:06, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• Perhaps the subsection name could renamed "Background", because it isn't just setting. There're some events that happen before the story that don't fall under setting (time/place/situation).

I'm not entirely sure what you're referring to. Are you saying rename "Setting" to "Background"? There are events that happen before the story, but they are all scene through cutscenes. Everything in "Setting" is what the player actually explores during gameplay. --JDC808 ♫ 21:06, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

OK. I was confused because of the Zeus chaining detail, which seemed out of place. It would fit better into the plot section. By setting, we're only talking about the backdrop and environment. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 23:02, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Okay, moved Zeus part to Plot. --JDC808 ♫ 23:17, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• Redundancies remain: "The massive temple, constructed by the architect Pathos Verdes III, is full of deadly traps and a variety of enemies"; "Other characters that appear include a host of Greek gods"

Variety was to imply that there are lots of different enemies, but have fixed both. --JDC808 ♫ 21:06, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

The presence of these concerns tell me that there is a little bit of work needed to be done throughout before this can be promoted to FA status. I'm in the midst of doing a thorough peer review that I've been committed to for about a month now and don't have time to go through this entire article. When some more copy editing has been done in the article, let me know and I'll be glad to revisit. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 20:33, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

I see some improvements have been made. They do not seem enough unfortunately. Understanding that the article has already gone through independent copy editing, I'll try to tweak the prose around a bit myself, and you can see if my edits appear OK. There are quite a few glitches (pun not intended) dispersed, and they need to be fixed before the prose can be considered "brilliant". Best, —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 23:02, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. --JDC808 ♫ 23:17, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• I've messed around a bit with the lead and have tried to remove redundancies and improve sentence structure. The lead does need to be trimmed. The article is close, but not quite 30 KB in prose length. So three paragraphs should only be necessary, per WP:LEAD. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 23:19, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

It was three paragraphs, but Neil916 had some issues with what-was-where which made me break it into four paragraphs. The second and third paragraphs didn't contain as much information and were together as one paragraph, before it was split. --JDC808 ♫ 23:23, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Valid point! I'm fine with this. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 00:57, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

• "The Eyes and Feathers incrementally increases the length of the health and magic meters, respectively, and the player must find a total of eighteen Eyes or Feathers to maximize the length of each meter, thus maximizing the player's power."—is "The Eyes and Featers" one item? I ask this because you say "increases". To someone not familiar with the topic, this comes off as awkward grammar. It should be clarified that they are one item somehow, if they are, that is. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 22:22, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

They are two items. The Eyes increase the health meter, Feather the magic. "Respectively" was put there to try and indicate that. --JDC808 ♫ 23:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

"Increases" is now "increase". --JDC808 ♫ 23:16, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

That sentence is a bit wordy. I know it's been worked over a few times, but maybe it could just say: "The Eyes and Feathers increase the size of the health and magic meters, respectively; finding eighteen of an item maximizes a meter and thus, the player's power." —Torchiest ^talk_edits 23:17, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Seems reasonable to me. Maybe just swap "size" with "length." --JDC808 ♫ 23:20, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm OK with this suggestion. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 12:09, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Done. --JDC808 ♫ 17:58, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

• In the development section, we have "the developer" and "The developers", which has left me confused.

Fixed. --JDC808 ♫ 23:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

• The game was released on March 22[26] in North America, July 8 in the United Kingdom, and November 17 in Japan."—that's odd citation placement. Is it because the IGN link does not say anything about North America?

The first IGN link (ref 26) only has March 22, the rest are in the other IGN link (ref 27). --JDC808 ♫ 23:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

• "At the 2006 Interactive Achievement Awards, the game won several awards, including 'Overall Game of the Year', 'Console Game of the Year', 'Outstanding Achievement for Animation', 'Outstanding Achievement for Original Music Composition', 'Outstanding Achievement for Sound Design', 'Outstanding Character Performance for a Male' (TC Carson as Kratos), and 'Action/Adventure Game of the Year'."—"including" implies that these are just some of the many awards it won at the show, but considering the length of list, that doesn't seem to be true. Is this list exhaustive? If so, get to the point (i.e. "...the game won 'Overall Game of the Year'..."). —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 23:02, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Okay. Will trim. Trimmed. --JDC808 ♫ 23:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

• "They said they were hired to rework Self's screenplay, but since it was written before Clash of the Titans (2010), Wrath of the Titans, 300, and Immortals, which they said had borrowed ideas from the God of War stories, they considered Self's script outdated, and they want to differentiate God of War from other films of the same genre. Dunstan said the first step is to humanize Kratos."—"They...they...they...they" seems repetitive. Also, towards the end, there's some awkward tense; it may be correct, but it doesn't sound nice.

Okay, two of the "they"s have been removed. Can you elaborate on the tense issue? --JDC808 ♫ 03:56, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

The sudden change of tense starting from "they want to differentiate" is awkward. "They wanted" sounds better, IMO. And for the last one, future tense sounds more suitable. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 12:09, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Changed to 'wanted". As per "the last one", keep the rest as is? --JDC808 ♫ 17:58, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 18:04, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Okay. --JDC808 ♫ 18:08, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

• "To date, the film is without a director and has a budget of $150 million."—what currency? US? —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 01:56, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

US. Fixed. --JDC808 ♫ 03:56, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

I have struck through my oppose and would like to read through the article once more before supporting. Thanks, —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 18:24, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Second look:

• "God of War is a third person action-adventure video game published by Sony Computer Entertainment (SCE) and developed by SCE Santa Monica Studio."—I'd preferably write by whom it was developed before by whom it was published. Chronologically makes more sense and the developer is usually more important.

I agree. The reason it's written that way is because SandyGeorgia had suggested it because of the "SCE" acronym. I've switched it back and just removed "SCE" from in front of Santa Monica Studio. --JDC808 ♫ 22:07, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

• "The game features quick time events that require the player to complete various game controller actions in a timed sequence to defeat stronger enemies and boss fights."—"to defeat ... boss fights"? Please correct.

Fixed. --JDC808 ♫ 22:07, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

• "Players also solve puzzles and the game features platforming elements."—awkward. Suggest something like "The game also features puzzles and platforming elements."

Done. --JDC808 ♫ 22:07, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

• "To date, the series includes four sequels, God of War II (2007), God of War: Betrayal (2007), God of War III (2010), and God of War: Ghost of Sparta (2010), and a prequel, God of War: Chains of Olympus (2008)."—I don't think the list of sequels is necessary.

Okay. --JDC808 ♫ 22:07, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Since removing the list of sequels shrunk the paragraph and made it a bit small IMO for the lead, I've incorporated the "first installment" and "second chronologically" into the first paragraph. --JDC808 ♫ 22:46, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

• "A second prequel is in development, God of War: Ascension, which will be a prequel to the entire series, and will be released in March 2013."—tighten to "God of War: Ascension will be released as a prequel to the entire series in March 2013."

Done. --JDC808 ♫ 22:07, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

As per above, this is no longer there. --JDC808 ♫ 22:49, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

• "As of June 2012, the game had sold more than 4.6 million copies worldwide."—"has sold" probably.

Someone had switched it to "had". Changed to has. --JDC808 ♫ 22:07, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

June 2012 was in the past so we use the past tense. --John (talk) 06:32, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

• "With the exception of flashbacks, the game's events are set between the games Chains of Olympus and Ghost of Sparta."—remove "the game's". Less repetitive.

Done. --JDC808 ♫ 22:07, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

More to come once these have been resolved. I add any FACs I review to my watchlist, BTW. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 21:00, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

• "While a group of harpies take the Box to Ares, Kratos falls into the Underworld."—subject–verb agreement error?

Um, not sure. I thought it was correct? --JDC808 ♫ 21:35, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Maybe just remove "a group of"? —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 21:44, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Done. --JDC808 ♫ 21:47, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. I've seen "the group" used with plural and singular conjugations, but I support the tweak to be safe. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 21:54, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Okay, and you're welcome. --JDC808 ♫ 22:01, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

• Just a suggestion, but enlarging the screenshot in the Gameplay section would be good, IMO. Probably with he "upright=1.x" option. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 21:20, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I'll see what I can do. --JDC808 ♫ 21:35, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Enlarged some. What do you think? --JDC808 ♫ 22:07, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

The size is right. I've done it a bit differently per WP:IMGSIZE, see what you think. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 23:09, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Looks good. --JDC808 ♫ 23:19, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

• "... and art galleries from the game's development as rewards."—unclear.

Did some rewording, but wasn't exactly sure what was unclear. --JDC808 ♫ 00:20, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

• "Puzzles were implemented, including self-contained ones that span one to three rooms of the game, and global puzzles that spread across four or five areas."—unclear what is meant by "span".

Couldn't think of another word because I thought "span" was clear. I put "incorporate". I don't know if that's clearer. --JDC808 ♫ 00:20, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

• "Jaffe said the game would be unique because each puzzle is different, and that while each puzzle in the Prince of Persia series was a slight variation of the last, 'each puzzle in God of War is its own beast.'"—what is the relevance to Prince of Persia? —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 23:26, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

A comparison essentially. --JDC808 ♫ 00:20, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

It's too out-of-place. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 11:30, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Before I do any alterations, would it help if I removed ""the game would be unique because each puzzle is different, and"? It would make the sentence, "Jaffe said that while each puzzle in the Prince of Persia series is a slight variation of the last, "each puzzle in God of War is its own beast."" Could even remove the quoted bit and just say they're different. --JDC808 ♫ 16:43, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Removing the redundancy would certainly improve the sentence, and you can keep the quote. But there's still the problem of the reference to Prince of Persia coming out of nowhere. Maybe, try to put the series into context. For example, was Prince of Persia a popular series at the time? Why would the interviewer even raise the topic of PoP? Perhaps that can give you ideas. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 17:38, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Okay. Did some work. --JDC808 ♫ 18:30, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

• This has repetition of "game", and there's a tense inconsistency here—"By the end of July, the game was the sixth-best-selling game of 2005 up to that point,[29] and by June 2012, it had sold more than 4.6 million copies worldwide."

Removed first "game". Wasn't sure where the tense issue was. --JDC808 ♫ 05:47, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

The first clause has simple past, but the second has past perfect, even though both have "by [month]". Maybe change the latter to "as of June 2012". —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 11:49, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Changed to "as of June 2012" --JDC808 ♫ 16:57, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

• Prose in the Release section is a bit repetitive; there's too much of "was released".

Swapped a couple for different words/phrases. --JDC808 ♫ 05:47, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

• "The God of War Collection was released as a digital download on the PlayStation Store on November 2, 2010; it was the first product containing PlayStation 2 software available via download."—you could remove the semicolon and just say "...2010, as the first product...".

Done, but instead of "2010, as the first", made it "2010, and was the first" --JDC808 ♫ 05:47, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

• "The game has been highly regarded for its gameplay, graphics, sound, production, presentation, and story."—that's pretty much everything. Saying "in all aspects" would raise WP:OR and WP:POV concerns, so just removing this sentence is the way to go.

Okay, that list was from a review who said all of those were great, and other reviews said multiple areas in that list were great. --JDC808 ♫ 05:47, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

• In the first paragraph of "Critical reception", I counted eight instances of "game", "gameplay" or "GameRankings". This is a bit excessive for a paragraph this small.

Now there's 4 with 2 being direct quoted. A 3rd is also in a quote but not direct quoted. Can't change GameRankings. --JDC808 ♫ 05:47, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

• This is ungainly as well—"Raymond Padilla of GameSpy said the gameplay is excellent and that the game has".

Can't help the publisher titles. Removed the third instance of "game". --JDC808 ♫ 05:47, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

• Also, using words such as "excellent" and "great" without quotation marks raises the question of tone.

I believe I had originally quoted them, but a copy-editor removed the quotes since it was one word. Put quotes. --JDC808 ♫ 05:47, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Most likely in fear of scare quotes. This I think is a acceptable exception. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 11:49, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

• "Lane said the game's story is..."—here's a nice opportunity to remove "the game".

In addition to that, I've went through and removed "game", where I felt it wasn't needed. --JDC808 ♫ 05:47, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

• "Sell complimented the graphics, stating that they are "quite possibly the best on the PS2" and rival games on the Xbox."—wordy. "Sell complimented [stated that] the graphics, stating that they are "quite possibly the best on the PS2" and rival games on the Xbox."

Done. --JDC808 ♫ 05:47, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

More to come. I don't want to think that I withdrew my "leaning to oppose" prematurely but there are issues here that worry me about the prose quality, such as repetition, tone and redundancy. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 02:09, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm surprised copy-editors didn't see at least some of these issues. --JDC808 ♫ 05:47, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

• "In an interview for Play (UK) magazine..."—the parenthetical notation here is awkward. Perhaps somethinglike "In an interview for the British Play magazine...". Or just remove this phrase altogether.

Removed parenthetical part. --JDC808 ♫ 04:16, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

• "He said giving the readers a solid plot foundation was necessary and the novel required extra material so it did not simply follow the action of the game."—awkward. Add a "that" after "so".

Added. --JDC808 ♫ 04:16, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

• "Artemis is convinced for the fact that Ares' minions are destroying the wilderness and its wildlife."—this is just confusing. What is trying to be said?

I believe I cleared this up. --JDC808 ♫ 04:16, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

• Fused participle—"Kratos receiving new blades from Athena is also omitted..."

I believe I may have fixed this. --JDC808 ♫ 04:16, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

• Regretful note: I'm not sure what to say. This is my third pass through the article, and it still does not have the brilliant and professional prose it should. It's not far, but the language still does not flow well. There's a bit of clumsy and ungainly wording, some odd flow, and some grammatical inconsistencies. The prose also does not seem naturally written to me. These are altogether making me reluctant to support this nomination. Yes, prose reviewing can a subjective process, but it's hard to approve of a FAC you can't read without finding odd bumps along the way. My final piece of advice is for you to try to find a copy editor who is unfamiliar with the article and its topic, and kindly get them to run an eye over the prose. But with that said, it has been a pleasure reviewing this article. I've learned a lot about this fine game's history (haven't played it a lot, though) and appreciate your cooperation JDC808. I'm not sure how this FAC will turn out (you have plenty of support it seems, but a couple of opposes) but wish you good luck for the best. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 20:54, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

A bit disappointing, but thanks for all of the comments to help improve the article. The tricky part is actually finding said copy-editor. --JDC808 ♫ 04:16, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

A copy-editor unfamiliar with this article and topic just finished going through the article and fixed what he saw, and said it looked excellent. I believe another copy-editor who is also unfamiliar with this is going to have a look as well. --JDC808 ♫ 23:40, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Will surely take a look once the second copy editor has reviewed the article. Thanks, —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 23:56, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Comments from John

Oppose on prose based on a preliminary sample. --John (talk) 10:17, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Any suggestions to help improve the prose? I'm assuming you're referring to Neil916's comments. Work has been done to improve the prose he had issues with (also waiting on responses from him here, although he did post on my Talk saying it has improved). I'm assuming here, but did you actually read the article or just read what Neil916 said? If it was the latter, please read the article, improvements have been made. Citing examples would be more helpful too. --JDC808 ♫ 19:14, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

I wouldn't oppose without having read, as I said just above, a preliminary sample of the article. I will provide a longer and more detailed rationale when I have time. --John (talk) 19:20, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Okay, sorry for assuming, it just sounded that way. For future reference, just saying "based on a preliminary sample" is not helpful as we don't know what that preliminary sample is. --JDC808 ♫ 19:32, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

• Setting
  • "...which guides warriors through the desert so that they may summon the Titan Cronos and gain access to Pandora's Temple chained to his back." Is the temple chained to Cronos's back? Or are the warriors to be chained there? What's going on here? Rewrite to avoid ambiguity.

Not sure how you got confused with that and not sure how someone would assume warriors are to be chained there. Clarified. --JDC808 ♫ 21:26, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

• • "cerberi"? It's a Greek word, not a Latin one, so I am unsure why this would be the plural. I would prefer "cerberuses" or "three-headed dogs"

Cerberuses sounds wrong, but okay. --JDC808 ♫ 21:26, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Cerebrus is a proper noun; it is the given name of an individual creature/character in Greek mythology. I think Cerebruses is like saying there are multiple Athenas in the room. I suggest that three-headed dogs would be better. Neil916 (Talk) 10:24, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

True, but as the developers said, they gave themselves lots of freedom to modify the myths, and as such, cerberus is the name they used for the three-headed dogs (similarly, there is only one Minotaur in the mythology, but there are lots in this game). --JDC808 ♫ 20:59, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

• Characters
  • "a host of Greek gods"; why "a host"?

As per the first definition here. --JDC808 ♫ 21:26, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

• Plot
  • "...Kratos called to the God of War..." Prayed to? Called on? his doesn't look right to me.

Changed to "called on". --JDC808 ♫ 21:26, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

• • "...transported Kratos' wife and child...", "...Kratos battles his way to Athens' oracle...", "...for Cronos' role...", "Despite Ares' best efforts..." What's happening with these possessives? Is this hypercorrection? It looks fussy and odd to me. --John (talk) 19:33, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
    • On the possessives, can you clarify your concern? Those should all be correct usages. It's just an unfortunate coincidence that so many characters have names ending in S. —Torchiest ^talk_edits 19:43, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
      • "Athens'" definitely looks wrong; see for example this style guide. For me they should all take 's apart from Ares. In a way it doesn't make all that much difference, but to me having so many (what look like) hypercorrections in a short passage looks awful. --John (talk) 20:10, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

All with the exception of Ares are now 's. --JDC808 ♫ 21:26, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

The possessives issue also threw me the first time I saw it; it's not the way I learned to write possessives. But the MOS rule #2 under "For the possessive of singular nouns ending with just one s", an allowable use is "Add just an apostrophe", as long as it is consistent throughout the article, so I didn't bring it up. With JDC808's recent edit, it's not consistent any more, so I'd cast my vote to go back to the way it was or propose a change to the MOS. Neil916 (Talk) 10:19, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Now I'm confused on what to do. --JDC808 ♫ 20:59, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Changing the MoS won't change how ugly this looks. How do the sources treat this issue? --John (talk) 06:34, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

I know the sources use Kratos', not Kratos's. I'd have to recheck on the others. --JDC808 ♫ 17:26, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Did some checking, couldn't find the others in the sources (and if they were, they were singular form), so I checked the Wikipedia pages and Cronos is Cronos' (albeit the technical spelling is Cronus, but the developers changed it for this series). --JDC808 ♫ 20:32, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

• Gameplay
  • "..a pair of blades attached to chains that are wrapped around Kratos' wrists and can be swung around to attack enemies, similar to a kusarigama." Who says it's similar to a kusarigama? This needs a ref.

It's been removed. It wasn't said by anyone that could be sourced. It was an attempt to try and make readers understand how they are used. --JDC808 ♫ 21:26, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

• • "...a large sword that offers alternative combat options." This looks clumsy; can a sword really offer something?

A previous reviewer had issues and wanted me to clarify why the character would gain another weapon or magic. To answer the question, in a video game, yes. If it's used in a completely different manner than the other weapon(s), then yes, it's offering alternative combat options. --JDC808 ♫ 21:26, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

• • "...chests colored either green, blue, or red,..." Either normally relates to two items.

Removed. --JDC808 ♫ 21:26, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

• • "—allowing new and more powerful attacks—" New and more powerful? Or just one?

Upgrading allows new attacks that are more powerful. --JDC808 ♫ 21:26, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

I removed the "and", because it seemed to indicate there were both new attacks and upgrades for existing attacks, rather than just new attacks that are more powerful. —Torchiest ^talk_edits 22:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

• • "...kill all cyclops..." The plural is cyclopes --John (talk) 20:25, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Fixed. --JDC808 ♫ 21:26, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

I believe the plural is biclops. Ba-dum-tish. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 23:13, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

• Development
  • "He said he has the confidence that the team will fix the problems before the game's release." Tense again.

Fixed. --JDC808 ♫ 17:26, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

• • "He made point that..." What does that mean?

Fixed. --JDC808 ♫ 17:26, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

• Update: based on my looks so far, I still think the article fails on Criterion 1a: "its prose is engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard", because its prose isn't brilliant or close to a professional standard. On the contrary I keep finding basic errors of grammar and clunky wording. It would take a complete copyedit to bring this one around. --John (talk) 06:41, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

I have to disagree. With the number of copyedits this article has already received and everything fixed up to this point, the article does not need a complete copyedit, and I doubt it's far off from being "brilliant, and of a professional standard," but this is your opinion. --JDC808 ♫ 17:26, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree with JDC808 here. Can you point to any specific examples of clunky wording, and/or provide an example of a way to make the prose you take issue with 'brilliant and of a professional standard?'Domcarlo (talk) 04:19, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

• Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Graham Colm (talk) 23:30, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by GrahamColm 10:02, 11 March 2013 (UTC) [8].

---

FIFA Club World Cup

Nominator(s): EpidemiaCorinthiana (talk) 15:19, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because it deals with important, specific and detailed information to the best title a football club can achieve.EpidemiaCorinthiana (talk) 15:19, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Procedural close - Hello and welcome to Wikipedia! I notice that this nomination is only your eighth total edit, and that you've made only five edits to the article. Usually nominations are made by the principal editor of an article; the instructions at the top of the FAC page require someone who is not a principal editor to consult with them before nominating. I'm also worried that as a new editor you might not be familiar with things like the featured article criteria or the Manual of Style (unless you've had an account before?). Nikkimaria (talk) 16:26, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

I had an account before but that was years ago (2005 I think when Tevez joined Corinthians). And I have forgotten my password and username so I just made a new one. I read the FA criteria and it seems I met everyone of them. This article deserves to be given the FA push for its quality. Shortly, I will start revamping Corinthians' article. But for now, I want to finish this. EpidemiaCorinthiana (talk) 17:57, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Plus, when I looked at the article again a few days ago, a lot of info another user put was omitted so I looked it over. Since the principal editor was banned, it is impossible to consult him/her. I did take a few of his/her pieces of work and made a section that deals exactly with the obstacles that were preventing a club world cup to be created instead of giving a history of other competitions. EpidemiaCorinthiana (talk) 18:00, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Must not make jokes about Corinthians... While the article is undeniably well-done, maybe you should seek Good status before jumping straight to here. igordebraga ≠ 16:10, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

I thought about doing that until I read that getting an article become GA is not necessary for a FA label. Plus, as you have said...it is good enough to be considered a FA.EpidemiaCorinthiana (talk) 12:49, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

The problem is that the FA process is more demanding. Anyway, if it gets shot down, use the 2 week pause to get to GA status. (will wait for more input here before supporting and stuff, but the sentence "where Manchester United gained the sole right to wear the badge by winning the trophy." needs a ref, unless it's the one that precedes it.) igordebraga ≠ 13:35, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

It is. The link was in the wrong place. EpidemiaCorinthiana (talk) 20:30, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Query

Can you provide a reference as to the legal status of 3D artworks in the location where the piture File:Trofeu_SPFC_-_Mundial2005_01.jpg was taken?

Oppose

• Flags in the infobox without country information per WP:FLAG
• Flags in the FIFA_Club_World_Cup#Sponsorship without country information per WP:FLAG
• Flags in the FIFA_Club_World_Cup#Performances without country information per WP:FLAG
• No Valid source for File:SPFC_squad_-_2005_-_01.jpg
• File:FIFA_Club_World_Championship_Cup_and_Club_World_Cup_trophies.jpg does not have a valid FU rationale
• The non-free image File:FIFA_Club_World_Cup_badge.jpg is justified for use as the primary means of visualisation?!!?!?

94.197.33.20 (talk) 22:36, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

• According to WP:FLAG, international competitions are exempted from the having the need to have country information with flags.
• I have taken off the flags off the Sponsorship table.
• I have created a key for the Performance table in accordance to WP:FLAG.
• They are the official trophies for the competition and the NFU license allows such items to be viewed in the main page of the topic.
• I replaced the image with another one containing an appropriate license.
• I replaced the image with another one containing an appropriate license.

EpidemiaCorinthiana (talk) 00:20, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

• Comment – From talk page discussions, I noticed that there was an edit war a couple of months back over a background history section in a different format. Do the non-banned editors consider this new format acceptable, or will there continue to be efforts to remove the content? Stability is part of the FA criteria, and I am reluctant to commit myself to reviewing an article when parts of it may not be there in the future. Giants2008 (Talk) 03:07, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

That's part of the reason I went ahead with this. It seems that things have calmed down a whole lot. I wasn't going to put in a bunch of work just to have it reverse, altered or simply messed with. EpidemiaCorinthiana (talk) 03:50, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

• "while Barcelona have the record of appearing in the most finals with three appearances." Quite redundant to have "appearing" and "appearances" so close to each other like this.
• Genesis: "The idea that FIFA itself should organize international club competitions date from the beginning of the 1950s." "date" → "dates".
• Score ranges in the second paragraph of this section need en dashes. This is something that needs checking throughout the rest of the article.
• "Barassi also helped the organized the competition in 1952." Should be "helped organize the competition" instead.
• "'to the extent of almost giving it an official FIFA stamp'. and as a competition...". Shouldn't be a period after the quote, but a comma.
• "and as a competition that inspired the creation of the European Champions Cup from which it derives International Cup." I don't understand the meaning of the latter part of the sentence. Is it meant to be "from which the International Cup is derived."?
• Obstacles to the creation of the Club World Cup: "as it was Real Madrid's first international competition, as European champions that they did not manage to win." The comma doesn't need to be there.
• "FIFA stated that they would prohibit the 1961 edition to be played out unless the organizers regard the competition as a friendly or private match between two organizations." Surely "regard" should be "regarded" for past tense?
• L'Equipe should be italicized as a printed publication.
• "To protect itself against the possibility of European withdrawals, Toyota, UEFA and every European Cup participant...". "itself" → "themselves". This is unless "itself" is referring to UEFA, in which case a deeper rewrite is needed to avoid confusing readers such as myself.

Sorry, but I'm going to oppose at this time. I've only gone through a couple sections of the article and am finding issue after issue. I just don't think the writing meets criterion 1a at the moment. The article sorely needs a copy-edit or two from native English speakers to have a chance here. Giants2008 (Talk) 03:27, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Solved. EpidemiaCorinthiana (talk) 10:06, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Please don't strike out a reviewer's comments or opposition. It's not good form and is misleading to other reviewers. Let the reviewer decide if comments have been adequately addressed. While the individual comments are taken care of, and I struck those, I still feel that the article needs outside copy-editing. I only reviewed a small portion, and there could be plenty of issues lurking in what's left. Giants2008 (Talk) 02:08, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

The nominator asked me to look at the article again, in the belief that all of the article's problems had been solved. I'm happy to see that Jayron did some copy-editing, but I'm not convinced that everything has been found and I'm not comfortable striking my oppose. Here are some examples of issues from the Birth section:

• "stated that the Club World Championship is "a fantastic chance of becoming the first genuine world champions." This shouldn't say "is", since that is present tense and the event took place 13 years ago. I think that "provided" or "offered" work work best in this particular sentence as replacements.
• The space between US$ and 28,000,000 should be removed.
• In the same area, there shouldn't be two U.S. dollar links in a single sentence. I see more of them later in the section; is there a template that may be causing this?
• "The FIFA Organizing Committee approved the procedure for the final draw on October 19, 1999 which was held at the Copacabana Palace Hotel in Rio de Janeiro." Confusing wording. Was the procedure process done in Brazil, or the draw itself?
• "Real Madrid went on to defeat Al-Nassr 3–1 on that same match." Everything after the score is redundant phrasing that can be removed without affecting the meaning.
• "due to combination of factors" needs an "a" before "combination".
• The long list of potential host nations for 2003 is an unwiedly list. Why doesn't it just say that 17 countries sought to be the host? If readers want to know which countries, they can read the source.
• "In the final, I Rossoneri made short work of Boca Juniors". First, non-football fans aren't going to know that I Rossoneri represents Milan's nickname. Second, "made short work" is a bit informal for FA-level writing. This sentence needs a rewrite to address both aspects.
• "The saw off Ecadorian club LDU Quito 1–0 to become world champions in 2008." "The" → "They". If you're going to tell me that an article has been improved enough for me to strike an oppose, I shouldn't see issues as blatant as this.
• "The next two FIFA Club World Cups, 2013 and 2014, will be hosted in Morocco, the first time the tournament will be held in Africa." This is unsourced, and it's odd to have "first time" for something describing two occasions.

Sorry, but I still don't think the prose is there based on this sample, which is not extensive. At this point, the fastest route to FA would be to withdraw this from FAC and open a peer review in which the article's issues can be ironed out without the time crunch inherent at FAC. Also, soccer writers can offer opinions about what elements should be covered to take care of that issue for next time. Unfortunately, I can't see this passing at FAC in this condition. Giants2008 (Talk) 02:27, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

I just finished fixing the above issues.EpidemiaCorinthiana (talk) 03:42, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Oppose. I haven't read the article in detail; this oppose is based on criterion 1a. The prose is not strong enough at the moment. Most paragraphs I looked at had either clumsy phrasing or straightforward errors such as "There has been two trophies handed out to the world champions". On the basis of the limited review I did, it does seem like a detailed article and I would like to see this come back after a thorough copyedit, but at the moment the article is not ready. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:23, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

I just had an administrator do a copyedit of the article. EpidemiaCorinthiana (talk) 16:24, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Oppose. The tone used in the writing of this article is not neutral and full of useless information, mainly in the "history" section (for example, is clearly an attempt to give the tournament a longer tradition than actually has to relate it with unofficial competitions like Lipton Trophy, Little World Cup et al) without any specific reason as not being mentioned by FIFA in this section. The tournament's history is relatively short (it was proposed by FIFA Executive Committee in 1993, approved in 1996, ratified in 1998 at the FIFA Congress of Paris, held for the first time in 2000 and, finally, held every year since 2005, ie, the tournament is less than a decade of disputed), so, its main chapter ("History") should reflect this, regardless if in the 19th century were held tournaments today nobody remember or during the post-war some "friendly" competitions were really pitched battle due for describe this exist each corresponding article and, in fact, only have anecdotal relationship with this tournament. This tournament, objectively, was not free from objections and refusal to be created by the media and mainly, clubs (for example, G-14), UEFA and the CSF confederations (one of the reasons why it was "suspended" until 2005) also the first edition was pyrrhic value to the world press, however, omitted to explain that part of the history of the competition, while interestingly discussed in detail -although not for this article-, 'how poor were the others, so it simply does not deserve to be featured.

Additionally, this article is full of opinion articles (which are potentially POV) and pay-per-view articles to prevent any reader can verify what is stated in Wikipedia.--Dantetheperuvian (talk) 01:15, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Nothing about your opposition was constructive in the least. As a matter of fact, it looks far more like a deliberate disruption. How you managed to bring the 19th century into the FIFA Club World Cup is beyond me. Some of your sentences make no sense at all. I welcome criticisms because I improve whatever I am doing and I get to see things clearly. But please refrain from giving any more irrelevant rants, especially in a FA nomination page, just so you can derail the purpose and nature of the regulations. EpidemiaCorinthiana (talk) 01:46, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

I've removed the "hidden" template that you used to hide these comments. The delegate will decide whether or not the oppose is actionable or not; you're free to comment, as you have, but hiding comments isn't a good idea. Just let the delegate review and decide. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:38, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

I have made more thorough inspections of the article:

• All the references have been changed to follow a similar format (mdy)
• All foreign references carry English translations
• All foreign references have links linking them to their respective languages
• All images have ALT text
• An administrator has copyedited the page himself and fixed the few errors left. He also changed the wording of certain parts to make it flow better.
• Got rid of references appearing more than once
• Per the copyeditor, I did yet another copyedit, reworded and simplified a lot of the sentences, and eliminated the overuse of a single reference in a paragraph unless it had vital information.

I have to say that I really see nothing else that could be done to this article. We have even done things that weren't in the FAC list. This is definitely FA quality now. EpidemiaCorinthiana (talk) 19:52, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

The same admin copyedited the article again and I went through each reference one by one and fixed all double links and dead links. I also added authors, editors, reference format, original published dates and page numbers to each reference that provided/needed that information.EpidemiaCorinthiana (talk) 15:24, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

• Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Graham Colm (talk) 12:13, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by GrahamColm 10:02, 11 March 2013 (UTC) [9].

---

Jainism

Nominator(s): Rahul Jain (talk) 03:54, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because it has addressed all the concerns raised in its previous nomination and meets the Featured Article Criteria. Rahul Jain (talk) 03:54, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support but what happened to SC judgement that Jainism is not part of the Hindu religion? That carries Hindu POVs worth writing And have you mentioned those we often see as "Hindu-Jains" who aren't pure Jains?
• Comment The following source: Jain, Arun Kumar (2009), Faith And Philosophy Of Jainism, Delhi: Kalpaz Publications, ISBN 978-81-7835-723-2 used as a reference in about 20 different places in the article is unreliable. Kalpaz Publications is same as Gyan Publishing House a listed Wikipedia Mirror[10] and a known problematic publisher. For more details see RSN about Gyan, RSN which includes Kalpaz, Userpage on Gyan and another Userpage. Correct Knowledge^«৳alk» 23:07, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

• I have replaced that source with other alternatives. Rahul Jain (talk) 06:02, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose – Isn't it necessary for this candidate to pass WP:GAN before proceeding with FAC. —Vensatry _{(Ping me)} 16:48, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

It isn't mandatory for an article to be a Wikipedia:Good Article before being eligible for becoming a Featured Article, as far as I know. Rahul Jain (talk) 17:35, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Not only is it not mandatory, it's not even suggested anywhere as far as I know of. Rreagan007 (talk) 22:35, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

• Comment – No, it's not mandatory for a candidate to pass GAR before coming here. I have been meaning to review this for some time now, but couldn't find the time for it. On a cursory glance, the connection between Jainism and Indus Valley Civilization (IVC) appears to be undue, if not fringe. Other than cults of goddess and fertility worship, religious practices of IVC have not been established with certainty. None of the popular textbooks of Indian history (Singh,Stein,Tripathi) or other encyclopedic entries on Jainism ([11], [12], [13], [14]) push back the dates to IVC or make any reference to Jainism within the civilization. Yet the article devotes half of the history section to Indus Valley Civilization, while it glosses over the origins of Jainism within the skeptical, ascetic tradition that arose out of increasing urbanization of India in 7th and 6th centuries BCE. This to me is a serious NPOV issue. The article is otherwise well written, I might come back with a detailed review. Correct Knowledge^«৳alk» 18:57, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

• I have removed some lines regarding the connection between Jainism and IVC to avoid undue weight. However, the fact regarding meditative postures (standing/sitting) bears close resemblance to Jain practices is substantiated with reliable resources. Just two lines regarding it and a quote from the Ram Prasad Chandra should present the point neutrally I suppose. Rahul Jain (talk) 16:40, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose — The lead should summarize the article. It does not. It is too short and does not summarize the history of Jainism. — 171.161.56.16 (talk) 05:19, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

• Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Graham Colm (talk) 11:57, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Ian Rose 10:04, 9 March 2013 (UTC) [15].

---

2012 tour of She Has a Name

Nominator(s): Neelix (talk) 19:57, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because, since the previous nomination, this article has undergone an independent copyedit by Guild of Copy Editors member Lfstevens. I believe that all of the concerns raised in the previous nomination have been addressed and the article now meets the featured article criteria. Neelix (talk) 19:57, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

• Quick reference comment Some references are missing some information. For example, reference 43 needs more information (e.g. the page, body, maybe volume, publisher, etc). Carefully check all references and complete them if something is missing. Also, remember that only newspapers and magazines should be italicized; I am seeing a television network italicized when it shouldn't. I will give you a full review today or this weekend. Regards. — ṘΛΧΣ²¹ 21:48, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

I have gone through the references and filled out the information for reference 43 and others. I have also unitalicized the citations for sources other than newspapers and magazines. Thank you for offering to do a full review. Neelix (talk) 02:13, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Good. I will go back here soon. Sorry for the wait. — ΛΧΣ²¹ 17:06, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Delegate comment -- Unfortunately this particular nom seems to have been a non-starter, so I'll be archiving it. Given so little comment, Neelix, I'd have no problem with you renominating in less than the usual two weeks, but my recommendation is to go through GAN and Peer Review first, which aside from anything else could help build up more interest in it before another run at FAC. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:43, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

• Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 13:46, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by GrahamColm 18:00, 6 March 2013 (UTC) [16].

---

Edward Coke

Nominator(s): Ironholds (talk) 22:56, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because... I think it's great? I'm not sure what to write here, except that I'm very proud of the article and look forward to the review :). Ironholds (talk) 22:56, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Comments from George Ponderevo

• "It was not a common surname, being limited to one family, but the family itself was relatively respected". I'm not at all sure what you're trying to get at here. If the surname had been common the family would have been respected automatically?

  Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 17:55, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

• "The origins of the name prior to that are uncertain". That a few people before before Coke had the same surname in no way explains the origins of the surname. And are the origins not still uncertain?
• "... theories are that it signified a river among early Britons". The river was among early Britons?

  Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 17:55, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

• " Francis Bacon, his main competitor, was noted as a philosopher and man of learning, but Coke had no interest in such concepts." Was it really the concept he had no interest in, as opposed to the subjects?

  Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 17:55, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

• "... the Third Amendment, on the other hand, takes influence from the Petition of Right." Strangely unidiomatic. Why not "is/was influenced by"?

  Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 17:55, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

• " Coke argued that the judges of the common law were those most suited to making law, followed by Parliament, and that the monarch was bound to follow any legal rules. This was because a judge, through his professional training, internalised what Alan Cromartie referred to as 'an infinity of wisdom' ...". What exactly is the "this" at the start of that second sentence referring to?

  That the judges were most suited to making law. As with the tears comment (see below) I'm struggling to understand the confusion, but I appreciate I'm probably more familiar with the text and the subject than most. Ironholds (talk) 17:55, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

  "This" could refer to Coke's argument about the judges, the comment about the position of the monarch, or why he put forward the argument in the first place. Beginning a sentence with "this" almost always leads to ambiguity. George Ponderevo (talk) 18:57, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

1. Gotcha; fixed :). Ironholds (talk) 21:23, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• "Coke's theory meant that certainty of the law and intellectual beauty was the way to see if a law was just and correct ...". In what sense was Coke's position a theory?

  Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 17:55, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

• "... he was summoned before Elizabeth I, who berated him to the point of tears before confirming him as Solicitor General." Who was in tears? Elizabeth or Coke?

  I'm struggling to see the confusion, here; how many times in literature have you seen someone cry from shouting? :P. Ironholds (talk) 17:55, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

  We're discussing what you've written, not what I've ever seen. It's quite possible that Coke was one of Elizabeth's favourites, and it pained her so much to berate him that she was in tears. George Ponderevo (talk) 18:57, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

  Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 21:23, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• Several of the Harv links are broken: #3, #107, #189, #219, #228

  Fixed; my apologies. Ironholds (talk) 17:55, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

  Not quite fixed. Three entries in the Bibliography aren't used as citations: Campbell (2002), Ibbetson (1984), and Simpson (2004). George Ponderevo (talk) 19:04, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

  Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 21:23, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• Why is "king" capitalised in sentences such as "Coke himself attended divine service with the new King on 22 May ...", but "monarch" isn't in "... the judges held their positions only at the pleasure of the monarch."? George Ponderevo (talk) 02:34, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

  Because 'King' is a title, while 'monarch' is not. Ironholds (talk) 21:23, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

  King is only a title if it precedes a name, such as in "King John", not otherwise. George Ponderevo (talk) 11:55, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

  Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 23:25, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Further comments from George Ponderevo

I still don't think this is quite there yet:

• "The case was actually two actions, with the first judgement being given in Denny's favour after Coke's research found a flaw in the pleadings that invalidated Cromwell's case." I don't think that's saying what you intended it to. The phrase "that invalidated Cromwell's case" is modifying the immediately preceding pleadings, in other words the pleadings that invalidated Cromwell's case as opposed to some other pleadings. Probably what you meant to write was "The case was actually two actions, with the first judgement being given in Denny's favour after Coke's research found a flaw in the pleadings, which invalidated Cromwell's case."

  Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 23:25, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

• "Coke retired to his estates, where he revised and finished his Reports and the Institutes of the Lawes of England before dying on 3 September 1634." As opposed to revising and finishing them after dying?

  Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 23:25, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

• "... her sister Audrey was married to Thomas Gawdy, a lawyer and Justice of the Court of King's Bench with links to the Earl of Arundel, a connection that later served Edward well. Winifred's father later married Agnes, the sister of Nicholas Hare." Later than what?

  Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 23:25, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

• "After being called to the Bar on 20 April 1578 Coke immediately began practising as a barrister. His first case was in the Court of King's Bench in 1581". Handling his first case three years after being called to the bar doesn't seem like "immediately" to me.

  Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 23:25, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

• "Morice was placed under house arrest, and seven Members of Parliament were later arrested". How much later? Is the word "later" even necessary?

  Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 23:25, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

• "In reaction, Coke decided to bring charges of treason against Devereux". In reaction to what?

  Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 23:25, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

• "... the Cokes immediately began ingratiating themselves with the new monarch and his family. Elizabeth Hatton, Coke's wife, travelled to Scotland to meet Anne of Denmark". It seems odd to start talking about the Cokes before we've been told that Coke had married.

  Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 23:25, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

• "Coke's behaviour during the trial has been repeatedly criticised; on this weak evidence, he called Raleigh a 'notorious traitor' ...". what weak evidence? Evidence of Coke's behaviour, which is what it looks like?

  Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 23:25, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

• "The conspirators were all sentenced to death and died through various means." All eight were hanged, drawn and quartered, so what are these "various means"?

  Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 23:25, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

  I'm still not entirely convinced. Would you trust me to make a few changes myself rather than my keep adding to this review? George Ponderevo (talk) 17:24, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

  Convinced of what? And, sure, although you picked a pretty odd time to ask ;p. Ironholds (talk) 18:28, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

  Convinced that this is a plausible FA. But I'll leave it to Wehwalt, sorry for bothering you. George Ponderevo (talk) 20:41, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

  Let me leave you with one last thought Ironholds. Do you seriously believe that "James VI of Scotland set out to claim the English throne as James I of England" makes any sense at all? George Ponderevo (talk) 23:23, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

  Now fixed. I appreciate that communications standards can be...flexible, on-wiki, but can I ask you to (in future) point out flaws with the article clearly rather than with unnecessarily passive-aggressive edit summaries? I'm perfectly willing to fix the article up when people politely bring me concerns: it's worth noting that this article contains prose I wrote a good four years ago, and copyediting has never been my forte. Your attitude here has been completely unnecessary. Ironholds (talk) 02:32, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

  I'd suggest that it's your attitude here that needs to be corrected, not mine. I have simply pointed out examples of where I believe the prose falls short of what ought to be expected of an FA, and I have even offered to help with the copyediting, but given your aggressiveness I will not be offering again. George Ponderevo (talk) 09:14, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

  My apologies if I misunderstood, then. Ironholds (talk) 14:34, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

  A conditional apology is no apology at all. George Ponderevo (talk) 17:20, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

  Erm. I'm apologising for stating that your comments were unduly rude, conditional on your comments not actually being rude. I'm sorry if this is 'no apology at all', but it'd be somewhat nullifying to insist I apologise for stating your comments were unduly rude even if they were unduly rude :). Ironholds (talk) 17:28, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Comments from John

• Family background and early life
  • Why is England linked (twice) from the infobox?
    • Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 22:01, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
  • "members of the family from the 1400s" Are we talking about the decade or the century?
    • • Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 22:01, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
  • " it was simply an attempt" Dislike "simply"
  • "was pronounced "kuke" during the Elizabethan age itself, although it is now pronounced "cook"" - what is the difference?
    • If someone wants to help me IPA that, I'd be most grateful :). The practical difference is Kuke as in Puke versus Cook as in book. Ironholds (talk) 20:07, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
      • It's even worse now! "The name "Coke" itself was pronounced "kook" during the Elizabethan age itself, although it is now pronounced "cook". Makes no sense to me and what are those itselfs doing? --John (talk) 21:56, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
        • Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 22:33, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
  • "but this is most likely simply because the names" Simply again!
    • • Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 22:01, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
  • "One estimate by Allen Boyer is that Edward was the fourth child based on baptism registers." Sentence needs recast to avoid ambiguity
    • • Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 22:01, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done

• Be consistent in whether you include locations for books

  Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 23:18, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• Check for doubled periods caused by templates

  If you can see them, would you mind pointing them out to me? Ironholds (talk) 23:18, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

  Block and Pound. You'll only be able to see them in read mode, as one period's hand-entered and the other automatic. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:46, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

  Fixed! Ironholds (talk) 22:54, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

• Boyer 2004: italicization is backwards (applies to all chapters from this book)

  That's a flaw of the template rather than the article. If you can point to a better way to represent essays within a multiple-author work I am happy to use it :). Ironholds (talk) 23:18, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

  Use the chapter parameter for the essay title and the title parameter for the work title. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:46, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

  Aha; great :D Ironholds (talk) 22:54, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

• Check consistency of wikilinking in Bibliography - for example, Cambridge UP is linked in Caldecote but not Allott or Baker

  Fixed (or should be). Ironholds (talk) 22:54, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

• No citations to Campbell 2002, Simpson 2004, Ibbetson 1984

  Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 23:18, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• Campbell 2005: I believe Elibron is a replica publisher, so check if there was a previous one

  Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 23:18, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• Corwin 1929: quotes within quotes

  Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 22:58, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

• Be consistent in whether you include publisher and page numbers for journals in Bibliography. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:47, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

  Yup; trying to, but on occasion I can't identify the publisher. I'd rather display additional information than less :). Ironholds (talk) 23:18, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

  Thanks, all, for your comments :). work is...more hectic than I had intended it to be this week, but I will try to get to this stuff in the next couple of days. Ironholds (talk) 17:00, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Sarnold17

Sarnold17 comments collapsed here

Hello; I find this to be an excellent and interesting article on a very important Elizabethan-era Englishman. I look forward to giving this my support. I'm working my way through, and will likely have a boatload of comments, primarily dealing with prose. Some of the comments likely spring from my incomplete understanding of English as used by the English, so please help me learn.Sarnold17 (talk) 19:27, 26 January 2013 (UTC) Lead My impression is that almost all readers will see his name and pronounce it like the common soft drink. Also, my feeling is that most readers don't know how to interpret phonetic symbology, even though it looks fancy and scholarly. For these reasons, it would be good to let the reader know right off the bat how to pronounce this guy's name, and therefore I would write "(/ˈkʊk/ ("cook"), formerly /ˈkuːk/" The old pronunciation is a bit more problematical; see later discussion. awesome! Thanks so much for IPA-ing it :). Ironholds (talk) 23:20, 31 January 2013 (UTC) "was used to justify the voiding of the Stamp Act 1765 and writs of assistance, which led to the American War of Independence," This is unclear. Do you mean voiding both the Stamp Act and also writs of assistance? Or do you mean justifying writs of assistance, but also justifying the voiding of the Stamp Act? In other words, I don't understand his influence on writs of assistance. Would it be easier (or correct) to instead use the Navigation Acts in place of writs of assistance? Voiding the both of them; fixed :). Ironholds (talk) 23:20, 31 January 2013 (UTC) Family background and early life "of South Greenhoe, now Swaffham in around 1150" Recommend "now the Norfolk town of Swaffham", since we don't know from what part of England the family originated. Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 23:20, 31 January 2013 (UTC) Recommend "Norwich" be wikilinked, since it is introduced for the first time. Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 23:20, 31 January 2013 (UTC) The sentence in paragraph two "The name "Coke" itself was pronounced "kuke" during the..." should be moved to the previous paragraph, since this is where you are discussing the family name, and that is a more suitable place to discuss the pronunciation. As for the pronunciation, "kuke" to me would be pronounced as in the word "cuckoo". This may be an Americanism, but the word "cuke", which is short for cucumber, would be more suitable. Is this not used by the English? If this doesn't work, then you could say it begins like the word "queue". Over here I'd pronounce it 'kook', I guess, which is closer to the original; will tweak. Ironholds (talk) 23:20, 31 January 2013 (UTC) I would totally eliminate the discussion on the order of the children because (1) it is not important and (2) it is basically speculation. The reader doesn't need to know that the order of the children is not known. Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 23:20, 31 January 2013 (UTC) "Winifred remarried to Robert Bozoun" Recommend "his widow married Robert Bozoun" since the reader may not remember who Winifred is, and also because he had a daughter named Winifred. Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 23:50, 31 January 2013 (UTC) Education and call to the Bar "by the age of 18 the students have learnt" Is "learnt" proper English? My American spell checker balks at the word. Is the word "endight" the correct word, and not "enlight"? If it is a valid word, could it be linked to wictionary? I haven't seen the word before. Learnt is acceptable over here, at least (I am informed it is the "past participle, past tense of learn (Verb)"). On endight, I've done a bit of etymological searching (after verifying that it's not a typo on my part). What I suspect is that it's a form of 'endite', which is an ancient form of wd:indite; I've linked that in the text :). Ironholds (talk) 23:50, 31 January 2013 (UTC) Is "matriculated to" a proper construction? I like to think of matriculate as being akin to enroll, and I've always said "matriculated at". Thoughts? Pokes at goggle suggest it can be used (or is commonly used) either way; I tend to go for 'matriculated to', in the same sense as someone is 'returned to' Parliament. Ironholds (talk) 23:50, 31 January 2013 (UTC) "Little is known of his time at Trinity – he certainly studied rhetoric and dialectics under a program instituted in 1559, but although he is considered to have had all the intelligence to be a good student little is known of his academic achievements there." This is a very long sentence and I find "but although" to be an awkward construction. Recommend: "Little is known of his time at Trinity, though he certainly studied rhetoric and dialectics under a program instituted in 1559. His biographers felt he had all the intelligence to be a good student, though a record of his academic achievements has not been found." Excellent suggestion! Fixed :). Ironholds (talk) 14:36, 23 February 2013 (UTC) "It was here he first drew notice, arguing well in an Inner Temple moot and asserting that the Inner Temple cook had failed to prepare edible food." He first drew notice? Does this mean he was noticed? If so, then by whom, and with what outcome? Hmn; there's a rather nice quote in Boyer about him, but it's unattributed; I'm loathe to provide a quotation that is uncited, or cited to the quoter rather than author. Sentence removed. Ironholds (talk) 14:36, 23 February 2013 (UTC) "Polson suggests..." We haven't been introduced to Polson, so you might mention that he was a historian/biographer/critic or whatever, and include his first name for this first encounter. Fixed :). Ironholds (talk) 14:36, 23 February 2013 (UTC) Practice as a barrister "and his reputation was such that when he retired to his house after an outbreak of the plague, "nine Benchers, forty barristers, and others of the Inn accompanied him a considerable distance on his journey". I can sense that these folks wanted to spend time learning from him, but I don't quite understand why they accompanied him en route to his house. Did they come to stay with him, or just travel with him? Can this be clarified? Just travelled; is it clearer now? Ironholds (talk) 14:36, 23 February 2013 (UTC) "...and during the 1580s Coke was employed by the Howards to see off lawyers employed by the crown who argued that the Howards' lands were forfeit due to the treason of the 4th Duke of Norfolk." "to see off lawyers" sounds a bit awkward. Recommend "to counter the lawyers employed..." Also, shouldn't it read "were forfeited"? Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 14:36, 23 February 2013 (UTC) "Coke's argument in the case formed the first definition of consideration." You've run several cases together here, so the question is--which case? Perhaps say "Coke's argument in this last case formed..." Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 14:36, 23 February 2013 (UTC) I'm taking a break and will return with more comments later.Sarnold17 (talk) 19:27, 26 January 2013 (UTC) Here is my next round of comments (will try to finish on 29 Jan).Sarnold17 (talk) 00:46, 28 January 2013 (UTC) Politics Opening paragraph: the word "secured" used twice in one sentence. Perhaps change one to "obtained". Also, I'm accustomed to "on their behalf" instead of "in their behalf" but don't know the customary way to say it in England. The construction "was returned for Aldeburgh" doesn't make sense to me. Do you mean "returned to Aldeburgh"? Fixed! And no, it's not customary, just a stupid typo by me :). Re 'returned', someone being elected to Parliament is returned for a Parliamentary constituency - I'm not sure the origins. Ironholds (talk) 14:45, 23 February 2013 (UTC) Solicitor General and Speaker "It is implied that this was a narrow victory..." Generally, avoid using passive voice. Who made the implication? Perhaps: "This was likely a narrow victory, due in part to Coke's defence..." Fixed! Ironholds (talk) 14:45, 23 February 2013 (UTC) Attorney General "The charges were never brought, as on 8 February 1601 Devereux ordered his followers to meet at Essex House" doesn't make sense. What do Devereaux's actions have to do with the charges not being made? I think you need to say something like: "The charges were never brought because of an incident that soon transpired. Devereaux ordered his followers to meet at Essex House on 8 February 1601, but when emissaries led by Thomas Egerton and John Popham were sent to him the following day, they were taken hostage." Good suggestion; fixed. Ironholds (talk) 14:45, 23 February 2013 (UTC) What are "pikemen"? Should be linked or described. My bad; linked. Ironholds (talk) 14:45, 23 February 2013 (UTC) Common Pleas "His conduct is noted as "from the first, excellent..." Noted by whom? If possible, avoid passive voice. Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 15:50, 23 February 2013 (UTC) Court of High Commission "...amongst both common lawyers and Members of Parliament..." Is "amongst" as suitable as "among"? The former sounds folksy and not encyclopedic to my American ear; is this good high English in England? Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 15:50, 23 February 2013 (UTC) Who is P.B. Waite, and why is he an authority? Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 15:50, 23 February 2013 (UTC) "known as Fuller's Case after the defending barrister" should read "named Fuller's Case after the..." Strictly speaking, Fuller's Case wouldn't be the actual name, however. Ironholds (talk) 15:50, 23 February 2013 (UTC) "the group were dismissed..." group is singular; should read "group was..." Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 15:50, 23 February 2013 (UTC) "Coke challenged this, saying "the King in his own person cannot adjudge any case, either criminal – as treason, felony etc, or betwixt party and party; but this ought to be determined and adjudged in some court of justice, according to the Law and Custom of England"." This quote needs a citation. Also, it has an opening dash but no closing dash. Is this accurately quoted? It should have a dash following "etc" Fixed; Coke's failure rather than mine (see this, for example). Ironholds (talk) 15:50, 23 February 2013 (UTC) Dr. Bonham's Case "19th and 20th century academics" should be "Nineteenth and twentieth century academics" since it begins a sentence. Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 15:50, 23 February 2013 (UTC) "Some academics, such as Edward Samuel Corwin, have argued..." this sentence is excessively long, and should be divided. Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 15:50, 23 February 2013 (UTC) King's Bench "had him found guilty" should read "found him guilty" Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 15:50, 23 February 2013 (UTC) Return to politics "In June of 1614" should read "in June 1614" Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 15:50, 23 February 2013 (UTC) what is a "Cantabrigian"? should be linked or described Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 15:50, 23 February 2013 (UTC) "It was reported, Sir Edward "aunswered him somewhat short, that Sir Thomas needed not to trouble himself so much about it, for that he belonged to neither universitie." " this is awkward, and difficult to decipher; perhaps summarise without a quote. Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 15:50, 23 February 2013 (UTC) Monopolies "Coke was then imprisoned in the Tower of London from 27 December before being released nine months later" needs rewording, perhaps: "...in the Tower of London in December 16__, but released nine months later." Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 15:50, 23 February 2013 (UTC) Petition of Right "being unable to speak due to their tears" this sounds unusual; what are you really trying to say? There should be a better way to say they were afraid. Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 15:50, 23 February 2013 (UTC) Following are the last of my comments.Sarnold17 (talk) 23:16, 30 January 2013 (UTC) Retirement "spending his spare time making revisions to his written works" having spare time when you retire is almost an oxymoron. I would just say "spending time making revisions..." Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 15:50, 23 February 2013 (UTC) "his desire to complete his writings and advanced age" to complete his advanced age? To avoid possible confusion or stumbling by the reader, I recommend: "his desire to complete his writings coupled with his advanced age..." Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 15:50, 23 February 2013 (UTC) "Coke was still in good health, despite his advanced age, and took daily exercise." "advanced" is redundant. Recommend: "Despite his age, Coke remained in good health, and exercised daily." Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 15:50, 23 February 2013 (UTC) "As he was on his deathbed the Privy Council ordered that his house and chambers be searched, seizing 50 manuscripts, which were later restored – his will, however, was permanently lost" Recommend: "While he was on his deathbed the Privy Council had his house and chambers searched, seizing... which were later restored, though his will was permanently lost." Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 15:50, 23 February 2013 (UTC) "A Latin inscription on the monument..." Recommend breaking into two sentences. Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 15:50, 23 February 2013 (UTC) Personal life first image in this section does not have alt text. Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 15:50, 23 February 2013 (UTC) "Paston was noted by Woolrych as an "incomparable" woman..." Since much attention is given to the father named Paston, I would call her "Bridget" and not "Paston" in this sentence, to avoid confusion, because I immediately thought you were talking about the father, not the daughter. Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 15:50, 23 February 2013 (UTC) "After Bridget Paston died in 1598..." Recommend "Following the death of his first wife in 1598, Coke married..." Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 15:50, 23 February 2013 (UTC) "Despite the marriage Coke was not buried next to Hatton, but instead next to Bridget Paston, who his daughter Anne declared was Coke's "first and best wife" " Recommend: "Coke was buried beside his first wife, who was called his "first and best wife" by his daughter Anne." You don't need to qualify this with "Despite the marriage..." because it is not unusual for a person who remarries to be buried beside their first spouse, particularly if that spouse is the parent of most of the children. Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 15:50, 23 February 2013 (UTC) "Hatton and Coke had two children, both daughters..." Recommend: "Coke had two children with his second wife, both daughters,..." Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 15:50, 23 February 2013 (UTC) Reports "during his career, Coke would note down earlier cases he had heard of..." "note down" is awkward. Recommend either "jot down" or else "Coke took note of earlier cases..." Ditto in the next sentence. Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 16:00, 23 February 2013 (UTC) "Although lent to friends and family, and therefore in slight public circulation, Coke never formally published his entire Reports during his lifetime" Coke wasn't loaned to friends and family. This should read "Although loaned to friends and family, and ..., Coke's Reports were never formally published during his lifetime." Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 16:00, 23 February 2013 (UTC) "In July 1634, officials acting on order of the King had seized Coke's papers, and between then and a 1641 motion in the House of Commons restoring those papers that could be found to Coke's eldest son,..." This doesn't make sense; break up into two sentences for coherence. Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 16:00, 23 February 2013 (UTC) Institutes check the Jefferson quote, because the construction "learning on in the orthodox doctrine..." appears to have an error. Checked, fixed. Ironholds (talk) 16:00, 23 February 2013 (UTC) Jurisprudence Who is Cromartie? He should be introduced with his qualification. Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 16:00, 23 February 2013 (UTC) Was John Selden introduced? I don't recall. He was. Ironholds (talk) 16:00, 23 February 2013 (UTC) General While this isn't a show stopper, I was disappointed to find no mention about Coke's influence on Roger Williams in this substantial article. Since Williams was mentored by Coke, and then became one of the great religious figures in American history, this is really a pretty big deal. A recent book (2012) on Williams discusses the relationship between the two men, though I have not yet read the book. A commentary by the author concerning a review in the NY Times can be found here. I wasn't aware of the link; I'll add that commentary that I can. Ironholds (talk) 16:00, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Wehwalt

Quite good and engaging, but I have my usual list of quibbles:

• Lede

Consider including in parentheses the alternate name of the ex officio oath, simply because the Star Chamber is well-known.

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 20:08, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• Family background

"The name "Coke" itself ..." Consider putting this sentence in a footnote.

"something that later served Edward well" Perhaps "a connection that later served Edward well" ? It's not quite certain whether the something is the connection to the Earl, or the marriage.

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 20:08, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

" and daughters second" I'd cut this as unneeded.

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 20:08, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

"Winifred remarried to Robert Bozoun" Which Winifred?

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 20:08, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

"A property trader, Bozoun ..." this sentence gets between the influence and the evidence thereof, and I suggest it be moved slightly. Perhaps, "Robert Bozoun, a property trader and a member of an old family. Noted for his piety and strong business acumen (he had once forced Nicholas Bacon to pay an exorbitant amount for a piece of property), Bozoun had a tremendous influence on the Coke children." You could even consider cutting the new parenthetical ...

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 20:08, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

"little is known" Three times in three sentences. I suggest you vary one phrase diversely.

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 20:08, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

"the Inns of Chancery, including Clifford's Inn, served as a place of initial legal education" On balance, I think a plural form is better ("a place") although granted, I can see a case for the other. Consider rephrasing to avoid.

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 20:08, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

"other pieces of high culture at the Inns" This sounds a bit odd to me, but perhaps it is just me.

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 20:08, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• Practice as a barrister

If he began is practice immediately in 1578, how was it his first case was not until 1581?

Making yourself available for work is not the same as getting it, particularly for new barristers. Ironholds (talk) 20:08, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• "forcing them to start the case anew.[38] Cromwell brought the case again, " a bit repetitive.

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 20:08, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• "paid off any royal clerks" Paid off? As in bribed?

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 20:08, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• "see off" seems a bit informal. Perhaps "oppose" or "defeat"?

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 20:08, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• Why the Third Duke but the 4th Duke? And a link to the treacherous one?

• Fixed, but your first sentence confuses me. Ironholds (talk) 20:08, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• " his third was Slade's Case," His third what? Famous case?

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 20:08, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• "Coke's argument in the case formed the first definition of consideration." Wouldn't it have been the judgment, which presumably incorporated his argument?

• Sure. And....? Ironholds (talk) 20:08, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Politics

• "Coke had earned the favour of the Dukes of Norfolk ... With their support, " Were there several Dukes of Norfolk at a time?

• It's referring to the family rather than multiple dukes. Can you suggest a better way of phrasing it? Ironholds (talk) 20:28, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• "and thanks to the influence of the Cecil family" As this is the first you've mentioned them, it's not clear why they should exert themselves on behalf of Coke.

• It's also not mentioned in the sources :/. Ironholds (talk) 20:28, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• "Although confirmed on 28 January 1593, he did not take up his post until the state opening of Parliament on 19 February 1593, a position he held at the same time as that of Solicitor General." Problem with this sentence.

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 20:28, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• "The idea of a peaceful, swift Parliament" given that the purpose was to impose taxes for war, "peaceful"'s a bit jarring. Quiet?

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 20:28, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• "due to religious problems." Perhaps, "due to religious conflict"?

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 20:28, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• "as Speaker of the House of Commons (whose job was to introduce any bills)" If his job was to introduce bills, how is it the bills which caused all the trouble were introduced?

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 20:28, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• "a day of respite". Perhaps "a day's delay"?

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 20:28, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• "opened up" somewhat informal phrases such as this are slightly jarring, perhaps because of the 16th century subject matter.

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 20:28, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• " A day later a group of emissaries led by Thomas Egerton and John Popham were sent to him and taken hostage." Huh?

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 20:28, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• The material concerning Devereaux perhaps can be cut a bit?

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 20:28, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

James I

• The phrasing used implies there was doubt that James would be able to successfully claim the throne, but this isn't backed up in the article.

• Er. Can you give an example? Ironholds (talk) 20:43, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• "the new royals." Surely James was royal from birth?

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 20:43, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Judicial work

• " known as Fuller's Case after the defending barrister, Nicholas Fuller." This can be read to say that the case was named after the barrister who had the defense in it.

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 20:43, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• "Coke's first case of note was Peacham's Case" I'd insert a "there" somewhere in this phrase.

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 20:43, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• " which saw the King's actions as him tampering with justice." I would omit "him"

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 20:43, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Return to politics

• James's action in ordering Coke's re-election seems so surprising (especially in light of subsequent events) that it almost begs for further explanation as to motivation.
• Again with the link to Cecil! And title! I think he appears often enough that he need only be linked on first appearance

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 20:43, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• I would mention the term "letters patent" much higher in the paragraph. People may think of "patents" in a rather different sense.

• In the sense of patent law? People would be right to think of letters patent in the sense of "patents". As that paragraph explains, the letters patent are the source of the patents system. Ironholds (talk) 20:43, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• You seem to me to be inconsistent in your capitalisation of "crown".

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 20:43, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• " Coke was briefly restrained from acting in Parliament by Charles;" I would cut this phrase, it is implied in the rest of the sentence.

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 20:43, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• "the person, for all others are accessory to it" I don't see how this fits the rest of the quoted matter.

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 20:43, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• "eventually rejected the Resolutions formally" I would boil this down to "rejected the Resolutions"

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 20:43, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• "Coke then undertook the central role" Strike "then" I would, especially since the last action was Charles' rejection

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 20:43, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• "The resulting debate led to some MPs being unable to speak due to their tears, fearing that the King was threatening them with the destruction of Parliament. " In modern parlance this sounds a bit hysterical. I suggest quoting from some contemporary description, if you have one.

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 20:43, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• "eventually affirmed". As the timespan referred to is between April and 17 May, suggest "eventually" can be dispensed with. I would give the year, it's a significant date.

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 20:43, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Retirement

• "effectively retired" Perhaps just "retired"?

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 20:43, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Personal life

• "through which" picky, but there's nothing that this refers to.

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 20:43, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• I gather Elizabeth predeceased Coke, but probably you should be clearer about this. (the infobox confirms this)

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 20:43, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Writings

• I'm not thrilled about the firstly and secondly; it looks odd and I wonder why one firstly and the other secondly? Is there a ranking?

• No, just one of my idioms; fixed. Ironholds (talk) 21:45, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• Should Institutes and also Reports be italicised in the Gest quote?

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 21:45, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• "His Law Reports, known as Coke's Reports, were an archive of law reports" perhaps one "reports" can be massaged out. This sentence can profitably be divided.

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 21:45, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• "four of which are still lost" strike "still", I would.

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 21:45, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• " by copying out and repeating cases found in earlier law reports, " This sounds like verbatim copying, how is it original work?

• The fragment of the sentence you miss is "started out by". It would be an impressive temporal achievement for Coke to report his own cases using reports written before he came to the bar. Ironholds (talk) 21:45, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• "Although lent to friends and family," slight disconnect in this sentence, the initial phrase should refer to the subject, which in this case is Coke, not his reports.

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 21:45, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• "While the Reports were intended " this sentence could also advantageously be split.

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 21:45, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• "There are also factual inaccuracies;" I suggest you buy a Coke for this sentence and place it somewhere therein.

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 21:45, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Jurisprudence

• " Alan Cromartie referred to as "an infinity of wisdom"" I would think something from Coke would be better suited here, since it is an important point we should hear from him.
  • Primary sourcing and quotations makes me leery. Ironholds (talk) 21:45, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
• "John Selden" I would either remind the reader of who he is or else link again. It's been a while.

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 21:45, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• Bacon has played a major part in this article and need not be linked again.

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 21:45, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• "play with it". I do not find this a pleasing phrase, as it implies arbitrariness (or perhaps capriciousness).

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 21:45, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Legacy

• It might be worth mentioning that Casement was found guilty. A "1916" tossed somewhere in there might be helpful to the reader, who has been wandering among the Jacobeans.

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 21:45, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Character

• The description of Coke as something of a poor courtroom lawyer seems rather different than what I had pictured based on the biographical sections. Possibly he worked best from a script.

General

• A script tells me that Campbell, Ibbetson, and Simpson, listed in the bibliography, are not used.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:12, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

• Fixed. Ironholds (talk) 21:45, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Aa77zz

• In the Bibliography section it would be better if each journal article entry included the first and last pages of the article – in addition to a specific page number in the References section. Aa77zz (talk) 10:09, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

  Fixed, with the exception of one (Vermont Bar Journal) that seems to have vanished from the internet. Ironholds (talk) 22:34, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Delegates' comments - The nominator has been slow to respond to the comments and reviews, and it would be a shame to see this nomination archived because of this. We are all overcome by real life issues at times, and this might be the case here. I would be grateful if the nominator could indicate when progress is expected. Graham Colm (talk) 15:48, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

By my timing you posted this after I'd made fixes today ;p. I hope to finish the existing reviews tomorrow. Ironholds (talk) 16:04, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

I've indicated to the nominator that I am unlikely to have time to re-examine the article until at least late next week, as due to the delay, I'd have to start from scratch. No opinion on the present state of the article, which I have not examined.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:47, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

If Wehwalt can commit to reviewing shortly, I'd agree that this review still has some life in it, otherwise I think we'd have to say that after remaining open almost six weeks without consensus to promote, it'd need to be archived and another attempt made some other time. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:22, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Strongly support This is a well-researched, well-structured, and well-written piece about a very important Englishman whose influence continues to be felt well beyond the British Isles.Sarnold17 (talk) 10:27, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Oppose. It seems that the nominator has neither the time nor the inclination to address the work that still needs to be done for this article to meet the FA criteria, and in particular criterion 1a. George Ponderevo (talk) 09:35, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

• I'm confused; all the fixes you asked me to fix, I've made, promptly. When you've come in at 11 in the evening my time with a niggle, I've fixed it hours later. Where do I lack time or inclination? Ironholds (talk) 14:34, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

  Promptly? You've been missing for most of this FAC, and have yet to address my fundamental concern, the quality of your prose. George Ponderevo (talk) 17:23, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

  Sure; work has been hectic, and I have apologised for that. You'll note that I have made myself very available over the last week and a half, occupying almost all of my editing time with getting the article up to scratch. I am happy to address your 'fundamental concern' - the quality of my prose - when you bring up specific issues, as I have demonstrated by fixing the queries and quibbles you have raised. To be blunt, I'm finding this oppose very hard to take seriously coming from an editor who barely 24 hours ago described his state as "Convinced that this is a plausible FA" and, citing his own lack of time, asked Wehwalt to serve as his proxy vote - only to turn up now, after I objected to your tone, to not only vote directly but express some skepticism that the article is even fundamentally workable as a candidate. It smells a lot like sour grapes. As I've said, and as I've demonstrated, if you raise specific issues with the prose I am happy to correct them. Simply stating that the quality is insufficient is unhelpful for our readers, our editors, and our collaborative processes. Ironholds (talk) 17:28, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

  I have consistently objected to the quality of prose in this article, for more than a month now, and you have consistently proven yourself unable to meet the challenge. I have even offered to help, only to be insulted by postings such as the one above. Where on Earth did you get that "sour grapes" idea from anyway? Are you suggesting that I'm incapable of getting an article through FAC? If you are, then you need to think again. This FAC ought now to be archived, and brought back when cooler heads than yours can prevail. George Ponderevo (talk) 18:37, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

  No, I'm suggesting that your rather vehement oppose came primarily because I objected to your tone. You have consistently raised individual issues with the prose, and I have consistently fixed them - in what way is that not meeting the challenge? Should I have instead focused on issues you had not brought up? And yes, you offered to help, and I was very grateful for that. I disagree that the FAC should be archived; I agree I'm probably not in the least-possibly-stressed mood right now, but I would suggest the same is true of you. Ironholds (talk) 19:02, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

  You may of course suggest whatever you like, but I'm not the nominator here, you are. And you have failed to address my prose concerns and have spurned my offer of help. George Ponderevo (talk) 19:26, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

  Again, I've addressed every individual concern you've raised, and again, your offer of help was most welcome. But we're clearly not getting anywhere here; I'm going to go write some code for a few hours. Ironholds (talk) 19:28, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

  I could give you a laundry list of problems with this article, and maybe you could go through that list and fix everything, and then I'd more than likely come up with another list, because your fixes weren't fixes at all. Articles brought to FAC ought to meet, or be close to meeting, the FA criteria, and this one isn't IMO. George Ponderevo (talk) 19:42, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

  You probably could. Or you could simply point out where my fixes weren't fixes (or suggest fixes you are comfortable with). Again, I find your oppose unconvincing, being as it is a total reversal of your tone barely a day ago. But it's no skin off my nose if this is failed; I'm comfortable with the article. Ironholds (talk) 20:15, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Delegate's comment - After six weeks there is no consensus to promote this candidate and I have decided to archive the nomination. Long reviews can deter new reviewers and a fresh start might benefit the article's prospects. Graham Colm (talk) 13:07, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

• Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Graham Colm (talk) 13:07, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by GrahamColm 18:00, 6 March 2013 (UTC) [17].

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Theodora Cormontan

Nominator(s): Dictioneer (talk) 03:16, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because its subject is classical pianist, composer, and pioneering publisher who struggled with the setbacks and barriers common to her era -- I hope a useful addition to the encyclopedia's collection of articles relevant to Women's History Month. I have read as many of the FA guidelines as I could handle without being overwhelmed, I am braced to accept criticism, and I will work diligently to improve the article to FA-quality by month's end. Dictioneer (talk) 03:16, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Comment: I applaud your choice of subject and understand your reasons for wanting to see this as a featured article. But...this is a brand new article which has received no prior review or assessment at all before being brought here. FAC is the final stage on an article's journey to featured status, it should not be the community's first opportunity to look at the article. I have brought a number of articles to FAC in the past, including several composer biographies (Gustav Mahler, Bedrich Smetana, George Bizet etc) and every one of them has been through a detailed review first. I strongly advise that you withdraw this nomination and send it to WP:Peer review, where I will be very happy to review it and to help you if possible to achieve your goal. Brianboulton (talk) 00:09, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Comment: I appreciate the above user's comment and interpret it to mean the nomination is therefore "unprepared". This process is a little confusing, but if I understand correctly, my agreement means that Raul or one of Raul's delegates can now archive this nomination. Once I see that it's disappeared from here, I'll update its talk page with the Peer Review template, and flag the talk pages of Brianboulton and Nikkimaria to pick up the PR request and run with it (if I read the volunteers page correctly, they seem like the best two candidates at this point). If I've got the process wrong and need to do something else, please let me know on my talk page to avoid cluttering this page further. I hope the article will emerge better from the process. Dictioneer (talk) 03:43, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Comment: The first and best tip would be to add references to all paragraphs. Geschichte (talk) 09:11, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Delegate note: Welcome to FAC, Dictioneer. A quick glance at the article suggests that it has plenty of potential to reach Featured status, but that it is indeed under-prepared at this time. Aside from additional citations (at least one covering each paragraph, as Geschichte notes), the lead needs to adequately summarise the article, which generally means it should be at least a couple of decent-sized paragraphs. As well as Peer Review, which Brian has recommended, you might also consider taking it through a Good Article Nomination prior to returning to FAC. As you're in effect asking to withdraw the nomination, I'll archive it and you can pursue enhancements and other reviews. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:03, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

• Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 11:29, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Ian Rose 10:04, 4 March 2013 (UTC) [18].

---

83rd Academy Awards

Nominator(s): occono (talk) 04:21, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because I think it very well referenced, readable and informative. occono (talk) 04:21, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

• Comment Although some people disagree with this comment, the Academy Award ceremonies articles are lists (or at least they are supposed to be lists). In my opinion WP:FLC is the correct venue. Tbhotch.^™ Grammatically incorrect? Correct it! See terms and conditions. 05:10, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

• I agree with Tbhotch. Both 1st Academy Awards and 82nd Academy Awards are lists. Regards.--Tomcat (7) 12:44, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Alright, how do I withdraw this nomination? --occono (talk) 01:57, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
    • Hi Occono, you've effectively done it -- I'll action shortly. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:06, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

• Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 04:09, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Ian Rose 10:04, 4 March 2013 (UTC) [19].

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Wicca (etymology)

Nominator(s): Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:35, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article status because I have recently undertaken a lot of work to improve it and pull it up to what I hope is FA quality; but I leave others to be the judge of that. Because it deals with a relatively minor, obscure subject, I have been able to use all of the academic, peer-reviewed publications that have ever been published on this issue in order to put together this article. I therefore consider it to be as comprehensive as possible, and can see little space for improvement. Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:35, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done

• Page(s) for Field? Wilson? FN33?
• Further reading should not contain cited sources
• Heselton 2003 or 2004? Nikkimaria (talk) 17:54, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Apologies, an editor had moved the cited sources into the Further Reading after I had initiated this FA nomination; I have corrected this. I have also corrected Heselton to 2004. Field is a newspaper article, long out of print, so I am unsure that we would be able to obtain the page number in this instance, although I shall look into it. Similar problem with Wilson, in that the article is in an obscure and long out of print magazine, but I shall look into it Midnightblueowl (talk) 00:29, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Update: I have discovered and added the page numbers of Wilson's article to the references. Midnightblueowl (talk) 00:42, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

A scan of the Field article can be found online here. Unfortunately, the page numbers are not visible. Considering that the Doyle White paper doesn't carry them either, I suspect that it will be beyond possibility for us to obtain them, and therefore this particular criteria should be waived in this particular instance. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:07, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Forgive my ignorance, but I do not know what you mean by "FN33?". Could you please explain this for me ? Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:58, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Hi, I believe Nikki is referring to Footnote 33 (Janus-Mithras, Nuit-Hilaria and Mer-Amun 1981). Ruby 2010/2013 17:35, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Much appreciated Ruby! Footnote 33 refers to the entire book, and not any particular page within it, so naturally there is no need for page numbers there! Midnightblueowl (talk) 00:28, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

• Comment The article should be titled Etymology of Wicca. The current name implies that there is a type of etymology known as Wicca. This is a subarticle of Wicca, and you do not also have 'Wicca (history)', but rather 'History of Wicca', and the sames goes for this one. Reywas92^Talk 16:33, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

That's an interesting point that you have made Reywas92. When I founded this article, I followed the example set by Witch (etymology) when naming it, although am not averse to making a change if others agree that it is the correct course of action. However, would a better title be Etymology of "Wicca", reflecting that the article deals with the word itself, not the religious movement that it refers to ? Midnightblueowl (talk) 17:40, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Hm, that article probably ought to be moved too. Quotation marks are generally discouraged in article names, and etymology implies the word itself; here are other etymology articles on WP. Reywas92^Talk 00:09, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Very well, your reasoning and argument seems sound; I have moved "Wicca (etymology)" to "Etymology of Wicca". Thanks for the advice! Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:12, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Delegate comment -- Open almost six weeks without any consensus to promote, and no comments for almost a month, this nom has clearly stalled so I'll be archiving it shortly. I'd suggest that putting it through GAN and Peer Review may be beneficial in generating more interest before another renomination at FAC. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:59, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

• Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 07:24, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Ian Rose 10:04, 4 March 2013 (UTC) [20].

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G. Wayne Clough

Nominator(s): Disavian (talk) 19:23, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because I believe it meets the criteria, and covers a rather notable subject in detail. I took a good deal of time in Feb 2012 to dramatically improve the article, but I'm just now nominating it. I look forward to reviewer comments. Disavian (talk) 19:23, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

• Working on checklinks results, looks like there are only two dead links. Disavian (talk) 19:37, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Checklinks is now clean. Every problem link was apparently fixable. Disavian (talk) 19:50, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Oppose, at least until the prose is cleaned up. Afew examples of what I'm talking about:

• "The students of Georgia Tech affectionately dubbed him "Funk Masta G. Wayne" during his presidency in accordance with the expansion and growth he encouraged in urban Atlanta ...". Accordance is clearly not the right word there.
  • That was changed from "in accordance with" to "due to". diff Disavian (talk) 17:53, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• "... Clough believed it detracted from the entirety of the exhibition, in which he believed 'to be a powerful exhibit about the contributions of gay and lesbian artists'".
  • changed "in which he believed" to "which he said was" Disavian (talk) 17:57, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• "Clough has earned numerous awards and honors during his career ... Dr. Clough has also earned a George Westinghouse Award from the American Society for Engineering Education". Why do we suddenly start calling him Dr. Clough?
  • That appears to have been fixed. Disavian (talk) 17:53, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• " Clough's decision was widely criticized, but Clough responded that he was protecting the Smithsonian's larger educational mission." Rather awkward and unnecessary repetition of "Clough".
  • Changed to "This decision was widely criticized" Disavian (talk) 17:53, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• " In 2011, Georgia Tech opened the G. Wayne Clough Undergraduate Learning Commons building to honor his commitment to undergraduate students". I'm quite certain that's not at all the reason they opened it, but it may be the reason they named it as they did.
  • Changed from "opened the ... building to honor his commitment" to "opened the ... building named in honor of his commitment" Disavian (talk) 17:53, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• "They have had two children, Eliza and Matthew." Don't they still have two children?
  • They now have two children. Disavian (talk) 17:53, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• "There Clough met his wife, Anne Olivia Robinson, while he was in middle school." No, he didn't meet his wife, he met his future wife.
  • This has been fixed. Disavian (talk) 17:53, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• The Early life section recounts events up until 1994, when Clough was almost 53. Can't really consider that to be "early life". Also, much of the section isn't about either Clough's early life or education, it's about his academic career before becoming President of Georgia Tech. Overall, I think that there's undue emphasis on Clough's time at Georgia Tech compared to his time at Virginia Tech, for instance.
  • The article has been resectioned a bit, and his research at Virginia Tech has been beefed up a bit. Disavian (talk) 17:53, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• "Clough's tenure was especially focused on a dramatic expansion of the Institute; over $1 billion was spent on expanding or improving the campus. These projects included the completion of several west campus dorms ...". What projects? The previous sentence was talking about tenure, not projects. Where did the money come from anyway?
  • Projects as in specific buildings, or collections thereof. A great deal of campus construction happened while he was president, and one of the largest responsibilities of the president is fundraising for whatever they want to build next. And it would be more accurate to ask where the money didn't come from - many of the buildings were funded by alumni donations along with funds specially procured from the state. I don't know how to encapsulate those facts into the article, though. Disavian (talk) 17:53, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• "Clough's father died in February 1988, and his mother died in August 1994." Is that really relevant? And again, what does it have to do with either Clough's early life or his education?
  • They're biographical facts. The sentence has been somewhat adjusted, I believe, and the section has been renamed to "research". Disavian (talk) 17:53, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

    Which makes it doubly incomprehensible why the deaths of Clough's parents should be tagged on to the end of that section. Let's remind ourselves that this a biography of Clough, not his parents. Did their deaths affect him in any significant way for instance? George Ponderevo (talk) 01:47, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

    The timing of the deaths of his parents is significant since they both died shortly before Clough became President of Georgia Tech, which provides relevant biographical information. In other words, Clough was not able to share his increasing success and greater accomplishments with his parents due to the timing of their deaths. I recommend moving the information regarding his parents' deaths to another section of the article to resolve the concerns described above. Mistercontributer (talk) 03:52, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

I want to stress again that these are just a few examples, not a list of issues that if addressed will automatically switch my vote to support. My overall impression is that the prose is generally rather clunky, particulary the final Honors and awards section. George Ponderevo (talk) 22:15, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your suggestions. I have been absolutely slammed with work this week, but I have had a couple people come in and copyedit the article. If I get some more time - possibly on Friday - I will look to see what of your suggestions has been resolved. Disavian (talk) 01:30, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Okay, had a look through them, good suggestions. I replied to the ones I could. Thanks for taking the time to copyedit and review the article. Disavian (talk) 17:53, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Comments (edit conflict!) I was the GA reviewer. Here are some issues:
  • "A graduate of Georgia Tech, in civil engineering, he was the first Georgia Tech alumnus to be the president of Georgia Tech." - too many occasions of Georgia Tech. Perhaps remove the second mention, and replaced the third with "that university"
    • That has since been changed to "A graduate of Georgia Tech, in civil engineering, he was the first alumnus to serve as President of the Institute." - any thoughts on that phrasing? I think we might need to uncapitalize president and institute. Disavian (talk) 18:00, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
  • "during which time" - I think should be "during when"
    • I went with just "when". Disavian (talk) 18:00, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
  • "Daniel Clough, the youngest of three children.[4][5]" - I think as it currently reads it may rather mean that his father was the youngest of three children
    • I believe that has been fixed. It's now "...as the youngest of three children born to Bessie Johnson and Daniel Clough" Disavian (talk) 18:03, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
  • "after which the family moved to Chattanooga, Tennessee." - I don't understand this phrase (after which is referring to what?)
  • "while he was in middle school" - remove while
    • That was rephrased to "Clough also met his future wife, Anne Olivia Robinson, during this time frame" Disavian (talk) 18:03, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
  • The following two sentences are disconnected and too short
    • "The faculty encouraged him to earn a graduate degree, and he received his master's in 1965.[7]" - also disconnected
      • It is now: "However, the faculty encouraged him to pursue a graduate degree, so he continued his education and received his master's in 1965." Disavian (talk) 18:07, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
    • "and his mother died in " - remove "died"?
      • It is now: "During this time, both of Clough's parents died; his father in 1988 and his mother in 1994." Disavian (talk) 18:07, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Will continue later--Tomcat (7) 22:17, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

I have addressed several of the issues described above, in addition to edits previously made by User:Elsceetaria. I will continue to help with this process until all issues have been addressed. Mistercontributer (talk) 03:23, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

• Link Virginia Tech just to Virginia Tech
  • When I expanded the article, Virginia Tech was a redirect to the longer name. Apparently, that is no longer the case. Disavian (talk) 01:32, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
• And delink the second mention
  • I fixed the links to Virginia Tech. Disavian (talk) 01:38, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
• In which way was the reorganization of the institute controversial?
• "This decision was widely criticized" - so odd. Why was it criticized?--Tomcat (7) 13:11, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
  • The reorganization is covered in more detail at History of Georgia Tech#Restructuring controversy, I have a lot of references that discuss it in detail. tl;dr: "Crecine announced the changes without asking for input, and consequently many faculty members disliked him for his top-down management style" Disavian (talk) 01:38, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done

• Print publications should be italicized
  • I believe that I have fixed the places where they were not. Disavian (talk) 18:40, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• What makes FindAGrave a high-quality reliable source?
  • I typically avoid FindAGrave as well, but used it to cite his parents' death dates as 1) that information is not contained in any other source I could find 2) it is noncontroversial information 3) a picture of the grave is included. So yes, I would prefer another source, but that seems like reasonably important uncontroversial information to me. Definitely a grey area as far as RS goes, though. I wouldn't be opposed to commenting out that sentence, but I wouldn't be happy about it. Disavian (talk) 18:44, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• FN27, 58: publisher?
  • Those two refs have been fixed. Disavian (talk) 18:40, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Don't duplicate cited sources in External links. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:36, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Re: not duplicating cited sources, I compare the two external links to the official links in Barack Obama.

Addressed several more issues. If possible, please provide feedback regarding changes made so far. Thanks Mistercontributer (talk) 00:59, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support A great article from an underrepresented area. Regards.--Tomcat (7) 10:33, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Thank you. :) Disavian (talk) 01:36, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Delegate comment -- After remaining open almost six weeks with no consensus to promote, and no activity for almost three weeks, this nom seems to have stalled, so I'll be archiving it shortly. Since its Peer Review was over two years ago, that may be a useful route to go before renominating for FAC. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:15, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

• Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 06:38, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Ian Rose 10:04, 4 March 2013 (UTC) [21].

---

Airbnb

Nominator(s): Kimsophiabrown (talk) 11:23, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because after reading it, I feel that it meets many, if not all, of the criteria an article must meet to be a featured article. It possesses good organization, is well-written, and covers a substantial scope. Additionally, Airbnb is an interesting topic to feature because it is an innovative company that is rapidly expanding. Additionally, it is rapidly changing the way people search and find places to stay. The article manages to stay neutral in describing the company and is clearly written by a contributor who is both knowledgeable and neutral on this subject.

Comments. Hi Kim, welcome to FAC. I see you haven't edited the article, have you notified any of the people who have that this is at FAC? - Dank (push to talk) 12:13, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

• Comments In it's current form, this article's referencing is excellent, its structure is good, its content is good, and its prose is mediocre. A couple of suggestions: (1) Discuss how many employees the company has, and mention if there are other locations outside of San Francisco; (2) Add a few pictures to the article; (3) Make the paragraphs a bit longer. Currently most of the paragraph are only 1 or 2 sentences. Contact me if you have any questions. DavidinNJ (talk) 03:29, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Procedural close - Nominator did not contact any of the major contributors. Also, the article hasn't even reached Good Article status yet. I suggest that this be withdrawn.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 21:07, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Oppose: Per above, the fact that the article has not achieved GA status is not of itself grounds for procedural close, though the lack of contact with the major contributors might be. Regardless of procedure, however, this article is in no sense ready for promotion to FA. There are fundamental prose issues to be addressed, including: too many very short (sometimes a single sentence) sections; too many very short paragraphs which prevent any prose flow; frequent intrusion of a redundant "of" as in, for example, "June of 2011"; simple prose errors, e.g. "including a man who's home had been rented", and "In June 2012, Airbnb launched a wish list feature offering users the ability to create curated catalog of desired listing they would like to visit"; "mid 2011" and others. There are also numerous format issues in the citations. The article has never been subjected to any formal review process; perhaps peer review is the forum in which the article should be crafted into FAC-worthiness. Bringing it here at present is premature. Brianboulton (talk) 23:31, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Delegate comment -- Concur that based simply on prose and formatting issues (title case in section headings is just one glaring example) the article has been prematurely nominated, regardless of the procedural issue re. not contacting main contributors. Kim, I recommend both GAN and Peer Review -- in consultation with the main contributors -- before considering renominating here. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:56, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

• Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 00:57, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.