Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement: Difference between revisions
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*I agree that "an WP:ABAN on articles the other party has edited first." is an unreasonably restrictive sanction. It is not necessary to prevent disruption, and it prevents full consideration of a very wide number of articles. A standard i-ban is sufficient, and, given the above stateent by El C, ithe wording should be changed. '''[[User:DGG| DGG]]''' ([[User talk:DGG| talk ]]) 00:52, 29 October 2019 (UTC) |
*I agree that "an WP:ABAN on articles the other party has edited first." is an unreasonably restrictive sanction. It is not necessary to prevent disruption, and it prevents full consideration of a very wide number of articles. A standard i-ban is sufficient, and, given the above stateent by El C, ithe wording should be changed. '''[[User:DGG| DGG]]''' ([[User talk:DGG| talk ]]) 00:52, 29 October 2019 (UTC) |
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*I can see why this needs to be a standard one-way IBAN, together with a warning that skirting the edge of the ban would be grounds for heavier sanctions. I don't see grounds for a TBAN yet; SashiRolls's behavior is poor, but I see no evidence that it's worse in a given area, only that it's worse when related to Tryptofish. {{U|Kingofaces43}}, I pointed out to you in a previous AE discussion that SashiRolls' TBAN from Jill Stein was under AP2 discretionary sanctions, not GMO discretionary sanctions. You've repeated that erroneous statement here. The enforcement log is [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_enforcement_log here]. That's borne out by the administrator comments at the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement&oldid=737580446#SashiRolls relevant AE discussion]. It might seem like a minor point, but it is very relevant to establishing the locus of bad behavior; and if you continue to misrepresent it, it reflects poorly on you. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Vanamonde93|Vanamonde]] ([[User Talk:Vanamonde93|Talk]])</span> 21:16, 29 October 2019 (UTC) |
*I can see why this needs to be a standard one-way IBAN, together with a warning that skirting the edge of the ban would be grounds for heavier sanctions. I don't see grounds for a TBAN yet; SashiRolls's behavior is poor, but I see no evidence that it's worse in a given area, only that it's worse when related to Tryptofish. {{U|Kingofaces43}}, I pointed out to you in a previous AE discussion that SashiRolls' TBAN from Jill Stein was under AP2 discretionary sanctions, not GMO discretionary sanctions. You've repeated that erroneous statement here. The enforcement log is [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_enforcement_log here]. That's borne out by the administrator comments at the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement&oldid=737580446#SashiRolls relevant AE discussion]. It might seem like a minor point, but it is very relevant to establishing the locus of bad behavior; and if you continue to misrepresent it, it reflects poorly on you. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Vanamonde93|Vanamonde]] ([[User Talk:Vanamonde93|Talk]])</span> 21:16, 29 October 2019 (UTC) |
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*:Playing holier-than-thou isn't doing you any favors, Kingofaces43. I'm not going to excuse SashiRolls's behavior because of your choice of words, but his behavior doesn't excuse your throwing the kitchen sink at him, either. He was sanctioned for his behavior on the article on Jill Stein, including, but not limited to, material related to GMOs. And that's what you should have said. What you typed in your initial request ''is'' a misrepresentation. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Vanamonde93|Vanamonde]] ([[User Talk:Vanamonde93|Talk]])</span> 04:54, 30 October 2019 (UTC) |
Revision as of 04:54, 30 October 2019
For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
See also: Logged AE sanctions
Important information Please use this page only to:
For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.
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Paul Siebert
Not actionable. Sandstein 17:29, 27 October 2019 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Paul Siebert
Three users, including me, raised concerns that the commentary about Holocaust denialism and Soviet gas vans may be a topic ban violation on Paul's talkpage. The gas vans were used to some extent by the Soviets in 1937 before the war, and they were used by Nazi Germany in the Eastern Front after 1941. Paul himself responded that the Nazi usage has "always been beyond the scope of my interest". He also stated that the Holocaust in general is not a part of the Eastern Front. While you could interpret this that maybe the Holocaust isn't that related to the Eastern Front or that he solely focused on the pre-WWII Soviet gas vans, the behauvior seems to be a continuation of the dispute while claiming to be just barely skirting the topic area. The topic ban scope in fact clarified that "atrocities" are covered. The topic ban also specifically prohibited the "continuation of your WWII-related conflict with the user My very best wishes in any forum". My very best wishes (talk · contribs) is heavily involved in the disputes at Talk:Gas van, so it is rather poor judgment for Paul Siebert to make 30 edits there after his ban. --Pudeo (talk) 12:33, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Paul SiebertStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Paul SiebertIt think Pudeo explained my point of view correctly. He also correctly concluded that if a topic A is a subtopic of the topic B, a discussion of the topic B does not automatically means a discussion of a topic A. Yes, Eastern Front atrocities were a part of the Holocaust, however, "atrocities" in general were not. I see no examples of mention of any specific events or facts that have a relation to EF atrocities in my posts, and I would say, even anybody else did not mention EF atrocities during in that RSN thread. Moreover, the thread is not about WWII events at all: it is about a source that criticizes modern Holocaust deniers for making references to the 1937 story in attempt to whitewash Nazism. Regarding this question, can anybody explain me what prevents me from making good faith efforts to understand our policy? Regarding my alleged conflict with some user, there cannot be any conflict for a purely technical reason: any conflict implies some interaction. Meanwhile, since 2018, for some reasons that I am not going to explain here, I am not interacting with this user, I do not comment on his posts, he is not welcome at my talk page, and I never post at his talk page. The only exception was that AE story that lead to my topic ban. That my single action was not wise, and I am not going to act in the same way in future. The only conflict that will take place in future is my prospective report of his disruptive behaviour. Until then, I am going to ignore him in the same way as I was doing in the past. Yes, I, as well as several other users am a party of a dispute about the 1937 events in the USSR, and MVBW is an opposite party thereof; this dispute has no relation to EF, and I even never directly responded to MVBW during that dispute. In my opinion, Pudeo is wasting our time. In connection to that, taking into account that any AE actions are supposed to be preventive, not punitive, I am contemplating filing another appeal, because my previous and current actions provide no ground for a conclusion that that topic ban is needed to prevent any current or prospective disruption. In contrast, a current topic ban is purely punitive, and, if its goal is supposed to be an improvement of Wikipedia, it does not serve this goal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paul Siebert (talk • contribs) 16:44, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
Statement by (slatersteven)To be clear my warning was not because I felt he had breached his topic ban (as El_C says its borderline and very much tacking). Rather it was a case of he was sailing a bit close to the wind, and it would not take much to definitely face him into it.Slatersteven (talk) 17:14, 26 October 2019 (UTC) Statement by My very best wishesI thought that anything related to the Holocaust perpetrated by Nazi at the Soviet territory (where the gas vans were used by Nazi), is indeed covered by the topic ban for Paul, because the topic ban specifically mentioned word "atrocities". In this regard, I thought he is making a topic ban violation here [2], i.e. by requesting editing restrictions for the whole page Gas van which does include the usage of gas vans by Nazi. In addition he started here [3] a thread that explicitly involves the subject of Nazi gas vans (i.e the book by Alvarez), just as on RSNB [4], where he wants to use this blog post by unknown person [5], which is about the gas vans by Nazi (It starts from, "In their crusade against anything Nazi gas chamber-related, deniers use the hyper-skeptical approach:", etc.) However, given the clarification by Sandstein below, it appears he did not mean such subject to be covered. That's fine. In addition, Paul is very welcome to talk with me directly on any pages; there is no any interaction ban. My very best wishes (talk) 01:12, 27 October 2019 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Paul Siebert
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LD1998
Not actionable. The awareness criteria are not satisfied because a) the user was not "notified" about the discretionary until after the violation occurred, and b) the official {{alert}} template was not used, as is required. We cannot count handwritten notifications. See Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Awareness and alerts for the formal requirements. @LD1998: This is a procedural technicality, it does not mean there was no violation. Note that you have now been formally "made aware", so you are now fully subject to Arbitration enforcement measures for future violations. ~Swarm~ {sting} 16:32, 27 October 2019 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning LD1998
The user reverted 1RR. David O. Johnson (talk) 02:30, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
Discussion concerning LD1998Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by LD1998Statement by (username)Result concerning LD1998
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SashiRolls
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning SashiRolls
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Kingofaces43 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:26, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- SashiRolls (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
AE article ban at glyphosate and original AE case for reference
Standard discretionary sanctions are authorised for all pages relating to genetically modified organisms, commercially produced agricultural chemicals and the companies that produce them, broadly construed.[7]
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 06:39, October 27, 2019 Violates WP:ABAN at glyphosate and other articles where Tryptofish has edited first.[8][9]
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- June 4, 2019 Blocked for personal attacks in another topic after leaving GMO topic.
- Aug 10, 2019 Blocked for edit warring and harassment again.
- June 2017 1-year indefinite block.
- Dec 2016 6-month block for disruptive editing and wiki-hounding.
- Dec 2016 Banned from AE cases where they are not a party.
- Sept 2016 Topic-banned under GMO/pesticide & politics DS from Jill Stein for six months
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on May 20, 2019 by El_C (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
SashiRolls is popping into GMO and pesticide related topics again, which I had hoped the last AE had tamped down. I won't belabor the previous AE that established extremely disruptive demeanor by SashiRolls in this subject, but short of a full-topic ban, their battleground and hounding behavior led to them being article-banned from all articles in the subject Tryptofish had edited first (Jill Stein being the only current major GMO/pesticide-related article the ban doesn't apply to my recollection). That's also part of a now one-way interaction ban with Tryptofish.[10] There's a long record of disruption, harassment, etc. looking at their block log and other AE-based sanctions. Glyphosate was the center of SashiRolls' trouble May, so there's no realistic way to claim this was a "I forgot" moment, and El C gave them guidance in my sanction link on avoiding an article like this.
This is also fairly moot considering the article ban, but a lesser but still disruptive trend is their gaming of 1RR in the subject. The diff above shows their mentality of trying to violate WP:ONUS policy to avoid gaining consensus for disputed material and reinsert it instead when you read their edit summary. Arbs at the original GMO case were clear reinsertions like SashiRolls performed are gaming 1RR.[11]. Edit warring is part of SashiRolls' previous sanctions too.
I'd normally just undo a single ban violation like this and move on, but given the last AE and the aspersions, harassment, etc. that went on then, I definitely don't want have to be interacting with Sashi again in this subject, so I'm just asking the sanction not be ignored like this. El_C, Awilley, and TonyBallioni are familiar with the behavior problems through previous enforcement actions, and there were plenty of WP:ROPE (or lack thereof) comments last time this came up in the GMO/pesticide topic. Especially given El C's post-ban warning about battleground behavior in this subject for comments like "compile an off-wiki list of all the dramaboard GMO cases and recurring actors to help the press get a handle on what is going on"
[12], this is an editor who should be staying far away from the topic. Kingofaces43 (talk) 17:26, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- To address SashiRolls' comment below on "false claims", just read their Jill Stein AE case filed under both GMO and politics DS for behavior at Jill_Stein#GMOs_and_pesticides. Kingofaces43 (talk) 18:52, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- With El C's proposal for glyphosate, broadly construed, that would at least cover all the areas I linked above in the interaction analyzer where there were more topic-based issues than just interactions w/Tryptofish including Roundup (herbicide), Seralini affair (centered around a glyphosate experiment), and sections of articles relating to glyphosate at say Monsanto legal cases. We have an identical ban on the books for David Tornheim as an example even though we should be past this point in terms of WP:ROPE and previous sanctions, but it's something as long as there's stiff warning about testing boundaries. Kingofaces43 (talk) 01:18, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
Responses to admins
- El C, I understand the trickiness of the sanction if this had been a periphery article where one would have to search the history as you say, and would be open to leeway in such a case. However, this is the exact article/topic where the previous disputes with Tryptofish happened in May. In terms of "obviousness" for the sanction, this one would be the highest-ranked.
- A full topic-ban considering the behavior not only directed at Tryptofish would simplify things though. The current article ban wording technically should keep Sashi out of the main controversial areas anyways, but outside of glyphosate and the main GMO articles, that might be hard for Sashi, admins, etc. to track. Kingofaces43 (talk) 17:50, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- To be clear DGG, we already established Sashirolls had battleground/advocacy problems in glyphosate-related subjects outside the Tryptofish interaction per the last AE, El C's additional warnings, and Sashirolls' responses here. We're needing some sort of topic restriction as El C said they should have done on second thought of similar coverage to prevent disruption if the current article ban language isn't used anymore (e.g., at a minimum, glyphosate broadly construed) . Kingofaces43 (talk) 04:30, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
- Vanamonde93, I'd normally bring this to a talk page since I'm at the word limit, but this does need to be addressed since you accused me at this AE. I am going to have to ask that you strike the claim I "continue to misrepresent" the Jill Stein AE as those comments were not helpful at the last AE, and you were already made aware you were misunderstanding that AE by the very person who filed it when you made those claims about me. You at least shouldn't be doubling down on that, which has only continued to misrepresent me and inflame the situation further based on Sashirolls' comments here.
- I was explicit that AE was opened under both politics and GMO DS due in major part to their behavior at Jill_Stein#GMOs_and_pesticides before and also at this very AE. Of course I'm going to point out there have been previous sanctions/topic bans related to GMO/pesticide topics. In admin discussion, Laserbrain was clear how exactly the behavior partitioned out under GMO or politics DS shouldn't be used as a red herring to distract from Sashirolls' poor behavior, as was NuclearWarfare. We also talked at SashiRolls' last AE that an admin could have flipped a coin on which single DS to formally log the sanction under, but the fact is behavior issues occurred and sanctions were considered with respect to both. As I said before, your comments to me are going in the weeds well past WP:NOTBUREAU territory, so please reflect on the previous guidance you were given about that case and what I've actually said so we don't sidetrack this AE. I can collapse this comment later if need be, but I did need to point this out since it was directed at me. Kingofaces43 (talk) 01:54, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning SashiRolls
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by SashiRolls
I have made a grand total of one (1) edit to glyphosate or any other article related to Monsanto since being given a no-fault 2-way IBAN with Tryptofish. I did not get involved with Tryptofish in any way and did nothing which could remotely be considered wrong. I reverted an edit once and only once for which there was no established consensus.
This is quite clearly bullying by a page controller.🌿 SashiRolls t · c 18:02, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- Also please note that I have never been banned on the basis of GMO for anything. This was explained to KoF by @Vanamonde93: the last time KoF brought me to AE in order to remove an inconveniently conscientious editor from the subject area:
(source)🌿 SashiRolls t · c 18:26, 27 October 2019 (UTC)Kingofaces43, why are you claiming that SashiRolls has been sanctioned under the GMO DS before, when that's patently untrue?
- Here they are again, continuing to make the false claim, hoping everyone will have forgotten.
- The result of the AE case was a no-fault 2-way IBAN with Tryptofish. Again, I did not interact with this person. I reverted removal of information reliably sourced to the New York Times once. This should boomerang. I recommend an AE-ban for KoF as a result of their repeating accusations that have been previously identified at AE as being "patently untrue" in an effort to smear my reputation. 🌿 SashiRolls t · c 18:07, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- I have removed the edit (§) now that I have been (for the first time) informed that someone thinks I do not have the right to make it. (the encyclopedia that anyone can edit, except those who read the sources) 🌿 SashiRolls t · c 19:02, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
Also, with regard to this baiting behaviour at RfA 1 (ignored, then repeated: 2). I believe the 2-way IBAN should be reinstated as per Tryptofish's own statement:
Recognizing that the 2-way IBAN was no-fault, and that there were good reasons to deal with the dispute promptly, I'm really not unhappy with the restriction, and indeed, I'm very happy to be separated from the other editor and I want to remain separated from them. In that sense, it's no big deal. But I also realize that, like it or not, some other editors are likely to misjudge me by it, and I would prefer not to have it continue hanging over my head. And I think it's clear that I can be trusted. I plan to continue to voluntarily avoid the other editor. I don't want contact with them, and I have zero interest in editing the content areas where they edit, and avoiding them is just the right thing to do. I also understand and agree that if hypothetically I were to abuse the lifting of the restriction, it will be reinstated. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:35, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
Up until now, I have not commented on this baiting behaviour (making false claims to which I am prevented from responding), but I assume since the 2-way IBAN is being used against me here I have the right to speak about it. 🌿 SashiRolls t · c 20:19, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- Will just add Tryptofish's first baiting comment, appropriately enough at Wikipedia Talk:Harassment (10 June 2019: less than 5 days after getting wiki-friends to help him wriggle out of his well-deserved "no fault" IBAN). The claims are, obviously, false. 🌿 SashiRolls t · c 01:11, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
- I also am, of course, aware that El C described the 2-way IBAN as being assorted with multiple ABANs, however did not log it as such (since this would have been a draconian sanction unwarranted for no wrong-doing, which I could have successfully appealed were it on the books). What we have on the books is a 2-way ban that Tryptofish couldn't accept and so had to wriggle out of. Above are two clear examples of Tryptofish referring to me obliquely. By his own admission below, absolutely none of my subsequent edits prior to the opening of this case have referred to him (even obliquely), including the reversion of KoF's removal of the person identified by the NYT as having requested ghost-writing help from Monsanto for his Forbes article. 🌿 SashiRolls t · c 01:23, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
- Someone should really sanction Kingofaces43 for contempt of AE.
Fact check
- I also am, of course, aware that El C described the 2-way IBAN as being assorted with multiple ABANs, however did not log it as such (since this would have been a draconian sanction unwarranted for no wrong-doing, which I could have successfully appealed were it on the books). What we have on the books is a 2-way ban that Tryptofish couldn't accept and so had to wriggle out of. Above are two clear examples of Tryptofish referring to me obliquely. By his own admission below, absolutely none of my subsequent edits prior to the opening of this case have referred to him (even obliquely), including the reversion of KoF's removal of the person identified by the NYT as having requested ghost-writing help from Monsanto for his Forbes article. 🌿 SashiRolls t · c 01:23, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
- use of the word battleground in the original case: Kingo: 8,admins:0
- use of the word advocacy in the original case: Sashi: 1 (speaking of KoF), everyone else: 0.
- @El C:: No that is obviously not OK. You have yet to study the very clear evidence, despite the fact that you edit en.wp 13/24 hours a day https://xtools.wmflabs.org/ec-timecard/en.wikipedia.org/El%20C (mostly in vandalism removal). Please provide evidence of any disruption. Topic banning me for removing obvious whitewashing is just going to confirm the general opinion that en.wp admins are not to be trusted. You seemed not to like me pointing out the clear ownership behavior on the talk page... (https://xtools.wmflabs.org/articleinfo/en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Glyphosate). One wonders why. 🌿 SashiRolls t · c 20:25, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
- Like I said El C, demonstrate that this double jeopardy is warranted, despite the fact that Trypto has been shown to have been spreading false rumors about me just above just as I have shown that KoF is making stuff up above. You need to recognize where the real problems are, which requires study, not video-game style vandalism reversion. You need to study the texts. Please indicate which texts you have read. Have you read the NYT article in question, for example? Do you think @Sj: was wrong to follow up my edit as he did given there was no consensus for KoF's edit? I happened to see the page on my watchlist, saw how silly the whitewashing was, saw there was no discussion on the TP associated with KoF's "authoritative" removal and acted. 🌿 SashiRolls t · c 21:02, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
- El C: I simply want you to encourage you to reflect. RfPP is a page where you count the number of IPs who have vandalized and decide whether page protection is necessary. That's a good thing to do. I know I've appreciated seeing various pages I am one of the principal authors of protected. The 3RR noticeboard is in general a question of counting the number of reverts to see if it goes beyond 3. Writing an encyclopedia also requires in-depth study of sources. That's what I do. That's also what you should be doing here, rather than "policing tone" of someone reacting to the two complainant's blatant misrepresentations. As shown above, there is an example of one just three sentences lower ("I've entirely stayed clear of SashiRolls"). TF has referred to me disingenuously on more than one occasion on very public pages (RfA, WT:HA) and should stop doing so. Look at those diffs, please, and tell me explicitly that you think they are OK, please. Please also confirm that KoF's repeating "battleground" 8 times in his initial complaint was OK too (cf. Psychological projection).(their 1RR complaint was rejected by everyone who looked into it, even TF). 🌿 SashiRolls t · c 22:41, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
- I have, of course, not said that Trypto "baited me into making an edit on glyphosate". As one who has been harassed (by Cirt, by Trypto who has shown up to every significant noticeboard discussion I've been involved in, including, of course, this one), I have WT:HA on my watchlist and participate there in an effort to improve the toxic en.wp environment. I also have every right to participate in RfA without having aspersions cast on my actions. NB: in neither case did I dignify their pot-stirring with a response (nor did anyone else). 🌿 SashiRolls t · c 22:53, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
- El C. Please refrain from calling adding another smoking gun diff "refactoring".🌿 SashiRolls t · c 23:31, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
- I don't understand what you want El C, but I would appreciate that you stop calling me "the user" (as you do below) and saying weird stuff about refactoring code. The former was one of CIRT/Sagecandor's depersonalization tactics. I am a person and the above is not code. I have the right to defend myself... and since you have provided the "smoking gun" proof that I added a diff showing Trypto insisted on getting an answer from an RfA candidate about something concerning me that the RfA candidate could no longer see (not yet being an admin), we should be good. 🌿 SashiRolls t · c 23:51, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
Statement by Tryptofish
Facepalm. I guess I'm glad that I was not logged in when the edit to glyphosate happened. But, good grief! First of all, I've entirely stayed clear of SashiRolls, even after the IBAN was revised to 1-way, and I am aware of this AE only because I was pinged. But I've got to wonder: why didn't SashiRolls just say here something like "woops, that was a mistake, I'm sorry, and I won't do it again"? (He did self-revert in response to this complaint.) This is the first time that SashiRolls has violated the "letter of the law" of El C's IBAN, but it is unambiguously a violation. I will note however, that SashiRolls has also shown up, after the IBAN was in place, at WT:HA, where I have long been a very active contributor. Here's a permalink to the current version of that talk page: [14]. If you just do a very fast skim of it, you will see me showing up in nearly every thread. But when you get down pretty low on that talk page, when you come to WT:HA#Abuse of Administrative Boards, there he is. I stayed out of the thread that he started, and the next one, until what I describe next happened (even though this happened after the IBAN had been changed to 1-way). In a later thread, I was discussing some things with TonyBallioni: [15], [16], and then SashiRolls replied directly into that part of the discussion: [17], taking up the thread of "opposition research" from Tony's reply to me. I found that a bit uncomfortable. I did not make an issue of it, because it did not, strictly speaking, violate the "letter" of the IBAN. He wasn't replying directly to me, and a case can certainly be made that he could have had a legitimate interest in the harassment policy, and El C's IBAN was written only in terms of mainspace, for the entirely valid reason of not applying to noticeboards, and this was policy space. It sure looks to me like testing boundaries.
But, as already noted above, it is simply preposterous to argue that it was not obvious that glyphosate was part of the IBAN. The original conflict that led to the IBAN took place at that very page (along with the related Séralini affair). And SashiRolls has actually said that he knew that glyphosate was included in the ban: [18]. And, for a topic area that ArbCom placed under 1RR, the tone of the edit was clearly battleground-y. It's a violation of the existing 1-way ban, no matter what modifications anyone might consider for the future.
For the future, changing it to a GMO topic ban, in part, might be helpful, as might, in addition, making the 1-way IBAN a traditional 1-way IBAN. But whatever you do, please do not eliminate the 1-way IBAN with me. I don't need any more of this stuff. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:39, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Admins: I think that a TBAN just to glyphosate would be a mistake; it should instead be a TBAN over the entire GMO DS topic area. For example, the run-in with me very much also involved Séralini affair. Also, it would make little sense to topic ban from glyphosate but not from Roundup (herbicide). (The DS topic areas of previous AE complaints are irrelevant here.) And I do think there needs to be a TBAN in addition to the IBAN, because otherwise I have no doubt that I will find myself with Tryptofish-only and SashiRolls-only talk page sections going on simultaneously at multiple GMO page talk pages (and I think everyone agrees that asking SashiRolls to look at long-term page edit histories is suboptimal, so it needs to be topic-based). My experience so far has been that the GMO area is the only topic where I've had problems that would not be easily covered by the IBAN. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:50, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
- I have absolutely not baited SashiRolls into making the edit at glyphosate, which is what this AE is about. I haven't baited him anywhere else either, but if he feels mistreated he can open a separate complaint about it. (Otherwise, it's just deflection.) And a great way not to be troubled about anything that I post would be to stop following me around and reading what I say. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:47, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning SashiRolls
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- This auto-ABAN concept would be unusual, and it's not mentioned as part of the sanction in the AE close or in the ACDSLOG, where it's noted simply to be an IBAN. IBAN itself has no such provision, and it in fact explicitly allows editing the same article without direct contact (in fact, the community recently overwhelmingly overturned an AE block in this situation). It's unclear to me whether this was just an erroneous statement by El_C, or if it was specifically intended to be an expanded IBAN with an automatic ABAN from any article edited first by the other user. This needs clarification first. ~Swarm~ {sting} 17:37, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) It's a violation. But in retrospect, I'm not sure my unique sanction framework was the most well-formed idea — expecting them to search every article to see if the other party has edited it is a bit much. Unless they knew in advance that the other party has edited there, then it's just a straight interaction ban violation, which is (?) or should be in place, and consensus is for one-way. Anyway, now that I think about it, I should have probably just done a straight GMO topic ban alongside a one-way interaction ban, which we can still do. Sorry for the lapse. El_C 17:38, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Kingofaces43: Still, due to my lapse, I get the sense that this will be more a discussion about implementing these new restrictions on the user than one involving the enforcement of existing ones. El_C 18:53, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- Unless there are objections from other uninvolved admins, I intend to reformulate the sanction to cover an interaction ban with Tryptofish (one-way) and a topic ban from glyphosate, broadly construed. El_C 19:59, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
- @SashiRolls: Your objection is noted. As is the aggressive, battleground tone. A pivotal reason why you should stay away from Tryptofish and the articles they edit. El_C 20:43, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
- @SashiRolls: Your battleground tone is noted, again. Anyway, I want you to not edit articles where Tryptofish frequents. If there is no consensus among uninvolved admin to restrict you toward that end, also topically, that's fine with me. I'm not sure why I would need to study the nuances of the latest content dispute to adopt that approach. El_C 21:37, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
- Also, in regards to video game approach that SashiRolls attributes to me, I note that, currently, I have closed 8 out of 17 reports listed at AN3 and been equally active in RfPP. Just two example. What's most visible is not necessarily an indication of focus or time commitment. So that, coming from someone who argues for the need of further study, is especially ironic. El_C 21:56, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
- Once again, a superficial overview, not only of what I do on Wikipedia, overall, but also the often much more nuanced role that involves AN3 and RfPP. And those were just two examples. To say that I don't study sources as a Wikipedia editor is plain false. Diverting this request, which is about you, to focus on me, is a rhetorical device whose usefulness is in question. El_C 22:53, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
- @SashiRolls: please refrain from refactoring your past comments. El_C 23:23, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
- @SashiRolls: this isn't a negotiation. You are not permitted to refactor comments that others may have already responded to. Full stop. El_C 23:41, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
- I agree that "an WP:ABAN on articles the other party has edited first." is an unreasonably restrictive sanction. It is not necessary to prevent disruption, and it prevents full consideration of a very wide number of articles. A standard i-ban is sufficient, and, given the above stateent by El C, ithe wording should be changed. DGG ( talk ) 00:52, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
- I can see why this needs to be a standard one-way IBAN, together with a warning that skirting the edge of the ban would be grounds for heavier sanctions. I don't see grounds for a TBAN yet; SashiRolls's behavior is poor, but I see no evidence that it's worse in a given area, only that it's worse when related to Tryptofish. Kingofaces43, I pointed out to you in a previous AE discussion that SashiRolls' TBAN from Jill Stein was under AP2 discretionary sanctions, not GMO discretionary sanctions. You've repeated that erroneous statement here. The enforcement log is here. That's borne out by the administrator comments at the relevant AE discussion. It might seem like a minor point, but it is very relevant to establishing the locus of bad behavior; and if you continue to misrepresent it, it reflects poorly on you. Vanamonde (Talk) 21:16, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
- Playing holier-than-thou isn't doing you any favors, Kingofaces43. I'm not going to excuse SashiRolls's behavior because of your choice of words, but his behavior doesn't excuse your throwing the kitchen sink at him, either. He was sanctioned for his behavior on the article on Jill Stein, including, but not limited to, material related to GMOs. And that's what you should have said. What you typed in your initial request is a misrepresentation. Vanamonde (Talk) 04:54, 30 October 2019 (UTC)