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{{DRN archive bottom}}
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== Forbidden Relationships in Judaism ==
{{DR case status}}
<!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 23:25, 10 January 2021 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1610321145}}<!-- REMEMBER TO REMOVE THE PREVIOUS COMMENT WHEN CLOSING THIS THREAD! -->
{{drn filing editor|Heydan Seegil|23:25, 27 December 2020 (UTC)}}
<span style="font-size:110%">'''Have you discussed this on a talk page?'''</span>
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
<span style="font-size:110%">'''Location of dispute'''</span>
* {{pagelinks|Forbidden Relationships in Judaism}}
The article omitted "One's genetic relative (Leviticus 18:6) (Leviticus 18:24–28)" which was the part of my Haftorah portion. The mod for the page claimed to be a Jewish Rabbi but has made work edits on the Shabbat and during a holiday which were time stamped UTC which would mean that despite his claim of being Israeli he still made the edits during the Shabbat and again during a holiday that if he was actually a Rabbi he would have been performing a service during. They seek to remove this addition of the beginning of that Torah section along with additional supporting citation from the Talmud, Midrash, and other actual Jewish authorities. It is 100% transparent that they are not Jewish nor are they Rabbis and are legitimately omitting portions of the related Torah section to twist and contort the narrative to allow for incest and pagan worship. This paints a narrative of Judaism which is full of depravity and creates a social narrative that we Jew practice inbreeding.
I can again supply the additional sources that support the prohibition against relationships from genetic relatives and the specifically cited section of the Torah literally says: "None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness.", the Hebrew reads the same but I figure it would be easier for the dispute resolver to have it in Hebrew.
This was literally my Haftorah portion and as such during Hebrew school I was required to spend several hours a day learning the specifics of this one section. Spent roughly 5 years or so learning just this section and the related cases from through-out Jewish history related to relationship judgements.
I am not sure about if the mod themselves are just ignorant, trolling, or actually antisemitic so I am hoping to keep this to the content of the page, but it is slanderous against Jews.
<span style="font-size:110%">'''How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?'''</span>
<span style="font-size:110%">'''How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?'''</span>
Leave my edit in and find someone who is at least actually Jewish to moderate the page instead of a poser. This is how misinformation and antisemitism breed. Some non-Jew thinks they can alter and omit portions of the Torah and then they propagate that narrative as Judaism.
==== Summary of dispute by Debresser ====
<div style="font-size:smaller">Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.</div>
=== Forbidden Relationships in Judaism discussion ===
<div style="font-size:smaller">Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.</div>
Revision as of 23:25, 27 December 2020
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Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
An extensive discussion started a couple of weeks ago about Chopins love or sexual life or desires. Some users seem to dominate the discussion, by refusing some sources harshly and by welcoming other sources quite uncritically. Some are starting to be quite rude, commenting „Yawn“ or so.
It is also interesting that some users demand more and more proof for homosexual actions or desires, but can‘t provide proof of the same quality for heterosexual actions or desires.
A resolution, which was brought up by a number of users in that talk, would be to complete the article with 1-2 quotes by Chopin, taken from his letters, where he clearly wrote about his desires. It would also be nothing but transparent, to add 1-2 portraits of addressees to the article, addressees Chopin wrote to the most letters. Like this, the readers could read themselves what Chopin wrote and build their opinion on their own.
Also a section about the quite large discourse on the topic would be nothing but transparent.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Perhaps guide the talk, so that not 2-3 users dominate the discussion. Ask for reliable sources of a comparable quality from both sides, judge the quality of the sources, help finding a solution.
Bring back more friendlyness, politeness and, most important, more impartiality to the talk.
Summary of dispute by Nihil novi
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
The dispute appears to have been resolved in a balanced, neutral way by Smerus (in the "Chopin" article's "Gender and sexuality in music and life" section), to the satisfaction of most parties except, notably, for Chip-chip-2020, who seems to have first brought Weber's views to the "Chopin" article and talk page.
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Nothing to say that is not on the talk page. There is no dispute here, only a consensus which didn't go the way of the complainant.--Smerus (talk) 16:03, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Summary of dispute by kosboot
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
I've been on Wikipedia for 14 years with over 13K edits and this is the first time I've been summoned to this page. As with the U.S. presidential election, it boils down to a few people who refuse to work toward consensus and feel their views are the correct ones despite the relative quality of the sources. - kosboot (talk) 22:58, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Summary of dispute by François Robere
As Robert McClenon notes this was a very lengthy discussion. I feel that some editors were defensive of Chopin/'s reputation (in a manner that again mirrors how this was received in the "real world"), and at times this contributed to a raising of sourcing standards almost to WP:BLP levels. The resulting text is appreciable for trying to summarize all of he main viewpoints without embarrassing any of the sources (some of whom have theorized on Chopin's sexuality in a manner that's out of vogue these days), but I think it's way too long and obtuse, and does not give due weight to some dissenting sources.
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
The debate was a bit heated and not very structured initially, but the dust has settled and we have achieved some kind of consensus. I'm surprised by the size of the section on Chopin's sexuality that has just been added to the article and intend to make some further points on the talk page, but overall I'm happy with it and think it provides a balanced and well-written summary of the topic. I'm somewhat surprised that this has reached DRN in the first place; the debate was mostly civil and did not reach anything approaching the levels of acrimony that the talk pages of political articles often witness.
I have been asked by Chip-chip-2020 to provide a rationale for my reversal of his edit, so I will just state that the topic is a sensitive one and consensus was being sought on the talk page; hence, it was natural to revert the article to its "default" state, which is consistent with WP:BRD. The Chopin entry is a featured article and Chip-chip-2020's edits were reverted by other editors as well, which further supports the appropriateness of the steps taken. Toccata quarta (talk) 15:04, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Summary of dispute by Glissando1234567890
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Frédéric Chopin discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Comment by semi-involved Francis Schonken (talk): I think this is less suitable to be taken on at DRN, for there being too many parties (as far as I'm concerned I could have found myself listed among the parties), for issues getting mostly resolved on the article talk page (being told the same thing by many people is not an indication DR would usually lead to something different), and the OP's concerns to a large extent being implemented in mainspace (that a few things seem out of reach for the time being is something everyone, again, *everyone*, involved in the related discussion has to live with and should not fixate on). (note: this is not an opening comment by a volunteer, unless all listed involved users would consider me to be completely uninvolved, and then this would be my very first DRN discussion I'd volunteer on – just didn't know where else to put this comment) --Francis Schonken (talk) 15:56, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This dispute should have gone to RSN and NPOVN where the UNDUE nonsense would be rejected and any appropriate fraction of the current text would be validated. The calculus of WP content is that a compromise between valid and invalid = invalid. That's just logic, and that's where things stand. SPECIFICOtalk16:10, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Volunteer Note - The discussion on the article talk page has been extremely lengthy. The editors are reminded to be concise in commenting here, especially before a volunteer starts moderated discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:50, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Smerus: has kindly notified me of this discussion. I am not involved, but have commented on sources and tweaked some text. I discovered, before this notification, that Chip-chip-2020 had been adding POV content on de.wikipedia.org, fr.wikipedia.org, pl.wikipedia.org and en.wikipedia.org concerning Tytus Woyciechowski and Frédéric Chopin, with a narrative linking the pair. This attempt of Chip-chip-2020 to establish a "proven" link appears to be WP:RECENTISM plus WP:ACTIVISM. The posting to WP:DRN seems ill-advised. Mathsci (talk) 19:56, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Smerus: This evening has been disrupted by edits to Waltzes, Op. 70 (Chopin) (that previously happened on 12 November 2020). Chip-chip-2020 has decided for the second time to use the article as a WP:COATRACK for WP:ACTIVISM for an unsubstantiated affair between Chopin and Woyceichowski. Two IPs have been involved in the previous set of edits, both of them from Zurich (where the broadcast originated). Chip-chip-2020 has reproduced the same content and image, which might suggest sock/meatpuppetry. Mathsci (talk) 22:18, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't see Mathsci's comment before I added mine, but I agree that someone so well-versed in WP rules whose first edit was 15 November 2020 suggests a sockpuppet. - kosboot (talk) 23:04, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Volunteer Note - Based on the request by User:Chip-chip-2020, I will review the comments in more detail and comment on them and their tone within 24 hours. I didn't have to review them in detail in order to comment on their length. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:17, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As long as I have read through the very long statements once, I might as well take this a little further. Please read the rules that are in effect. It should not be necessary for me to restate the rules. Sometimes when I say "Be civil and concise", I emphasize, "Be civil". In this case, I will emphasize, "Be concise". The comments on the talk page are mostly civil, and are repetitious. I was asked to comment on the tone. I have no particular comments on the tone except that one unregistered editor has been uncivil. Other editors have been civil and long-winded, and what we need is to summarize them. It appears to me that Chopin's sexuality is a matter of considerable continued discussion. That is clear to me. We need some formulation to state that his sexuality is a matter of continued discussion. I didn't try to review the reliability of the sources with different viewpoints. It would be ideal to find some mutually agreeable formulation of the differing viewpoints. Otherwise we will develop two or three candidate versions of the section and have an RFC to choose between them.
Each editor should think about what can be said that will present the different viewpoints with due weight.
Now: Will each editor please state, in one paragraph, what they think should be said as a neutral balanced summary of what reliable sources say? Do not just focus on what you think his orientation or sexuality was, but on what you think scholars say his orientation or sexuality was. Do not respond to each other, except in the space for back-and-forth discussion. Address your comments to me, and to the community.
Robert McClenon (talk) 05:30, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
First statements by editors (Chopin)
I think biographical elements (sending of affectionate letters as related by *biographers* Zamoyski, Walker, etc) should be separated from gender studies (i.e., Kallberg's approach). The biographical elements should be summarized in the biographical narrative (Frédéric Chopin#Life), chronologically (that is, where both Zamoyski and Walker place it in their biographical narratives – not an appended separate subsection); the gender studies aspect is entirely reception/legacy and should be moved down, around where the current Frédéric Chopin#Reception and influence subsection is (where it is a rather tiny aspect, so likely also not a separate (sub)section). --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:13, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Robert McClenon, for the resumé and for opening the debate. Proved biographical content should be in the upper part (Frédéric Chopin#Life). Unproved (such as the alleged stories around Gladkowska and Wodzinska) should me removed or mentioned neutrally. Wordings like „secretly engaged“ or „secretly in love“ are not reliable information. And the quote from the Chopin Institute[1] confirms that. 1-2 quotes by Chopin himself taken from his numerous and long letters to Woyciechowski should be introduced though, as suggested by many users in the talk. The letter from 3.10.1829 was pointed out for various reasons, also for the mistranslation issue, which would also be worth to mentioned, since the translations are the basis for non-polish-scholarship. For example Glissando1234567890, Boud, [[User:François Robere|François Robere], Francis Schonken suggested introducing Quotes or Fotos or pointed out interesting aspects of the mistranslation-issue. Quotes in correct side-by-side translations would be appropriate, as suggested in the talk.
Apart from the proven facts in the life-section, in the „sexuality“-section, the different points of view of the debate should be shown neutrally. It is important to be careful about the sources, since Walker and Zamoyski are writing things like „mental twist“,[2] or „[Chopin] could have added the name of Konstancja“ (to a letter to Woyciechowski), or „he secretly dedicated the Adagio to her“ (without mentioning any proof[3], and also in the newest edition of the score there is no dedication mentioned)[4].
In the sexuality-section (Frédéric Chopin#Chopin's_sexuality), it should also be mentioned, that the radio-features became not just a topic in Poland, but were also reviewed or further investigated in publications like The Times, CNN, Guardian, also in various languages like Hindi or Japanese.[5] Best, --Chip-chip-2020 (talk) 08:39, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I broadly agree with Francis Schonken's summary above as regards allocating the topic(s). The question is how much detail is appropriate. As regards Chopin's sexuality, it only needs (imo) a sentence noting that the correspondence with Woychiekowski has given rise to discussion about Chopin's sexual orientation at the time of writing them, and then citations of (say) Walker and Zamoyski. Chip-chip-2020 is absolutely unjustified in talking about "unproved...alleged stories around Gladkowska and Wodzinska"; this is pure WP:OR as there is plenty of evidence about these two in other people's correspondence of the period. To elaborate on this sort of speculation is just being WP:POINTy. As regards Kallberg's speculaltions, these are indeed pretty esoteric and don't deserve much more than a brief reference in a 'legacy' section. Further, there is no good reason to go overboard about a poorly sourced program last month on Swiss radio which had little or no balance whatever, and whose false controversiality (because the issues it discussed were well known) gained it a transient wider media coverage.
The broader context is that this is an FA article on a major figure in music history, and needs to meet fully standards about using reliable secondary sources if it is to retain that status; it receives 3-4,000 views a day, and it is essential for the reputation of WP that it remains WP:NPOV and avoids WP:RECENTISM. Context and proportion are therefore essential. Chip-chip-2020 above is urging that all sorts of doubtful and marginally relevant detail should be added as, somehow, by right; that is the argument of a partisan. Francis Schonken is suggesting that material should be properly evaluated and appropriately placed; this must be the right approach.--Smerus (talk) 16:13, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Robert McClenon: I dispute that any of this section is in good shape or that any of it is NPOV DUE WEIGHT for this article. It's poorly sourced and conflates many diverse issues, none of which is adequately verified or tied to the subject of the article aside from speculation. Noting the recent references to this as a Featured Article, I think the entire section should be removed until such time as it is fit to print. SPECIFICOtalk16:35, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I totally agree with Smerus: that the article's FA status requires careful evaluation of any additions. Ultimately, this is a very ambiguous aspect of Chopin's life which probably can never be verified with conclusive evidence. Thus it's not so much about Chopin but rather about 21st century attempts at deriving new information based on new interpretations of his correspondence. Although I feel it should not be in the article, it needs to be there primarily for the purpose of forestalling additional fantasy and speculation such as the sensationalist Swiss radio broadcast. - kosboot (talk) 19:17, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with everything Kosboot has written. As always I will link Chopin and Schubert. About 6 months ago, I helped write the very brief paragraph about Franz Schubert's sexuality in the eponymous article. Questions about sexuality dating from 1989 were put in "Teacher ..." (his adolescence), not legacy or reception. Similar scholarly questions about Chopin's sexuality were raised in the 1990s. In Talk:Frédéric Chopin, several editors have suggested that "images and quotes" might be added to the section on Chopin's sexuality. Most Chopin biographers, aware of his adolescent letters, briefly discuss their significance. Music Prof Kallberg studies 19C and social mores in a liberal framework; his work is accessible in book reviews. Recent media reports that "Chopin is gay" are similar to 1989 headlines about Schubert; but now, when discussing music and sexuality, trained academic researchers often speak of the otherness or otherworldliness of a composer. Mathsci (talk) 21:22, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I am in sympathy with the immediately above views of SPECIFICO and kosboot. The speculations about Chopin's gender orientation and sexuality are part of a trend of "fake news"; and while it is important to "fact-check" allegations placed before the public, I am not sure that Wikipedia should become a repository of misguided speculations. Thank you. Nihil novi (talk) 21:33, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Robert McClenon: Other than changes to readability, which I've explained here,[1] I think we ought to mention three more claims: first is Brett and Wood's statement on biographers trying to (essentially) heteronormalize Chopin and other composers; second is a response from the Chopin Institute that there's no direct evidence of romantic involvement between him and two of his most famous (alleged) female lovers; and third is Pizá's opinion that "clearly Chopin had homosexual desires", and that he was surely aware of his friend Marquise de Custine's fate as an openly homosexual man in liberal France, who was beaten half to death some years before they made their acquaintance. Pizá implies that Chopin was either gay or bisexual, and that characterising him as feminine and asexual was an attempt at "taming" him as an artist and a public figure, echoing what Brett and Wood wrote. François Robere (talk) 15:04, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The views of the editors taking part in this DRN appear to have three different viewpoints as to what to say about Chopin's sexuality. The filing editor wishes to make some statements about Chopin's sexuality (basically that he was bisexual) based on modern publications. Two editors have stated that these statements need to be properly evaluated and appropriately placed. Four editors have expressed the opinion that the challenged statements are undersourced or non-neutral and are not encyclopedic, and should be removed.
If the editors want to work toward compromise, which would involve evaluating the material in question, we can proceed toward compromise. However, it seems that a Request for Comments is in order. I am asking the editor who wants to add material to provide the paragraph or paragraphs to be added, specifying where to add them. The editors who don't want anything added do not need to provide any input to the RFC. They can provide their arguments against the addition when the RFC is published. The two editors who are taking a middle position should state what they want as a middle option in the RFC.
Supposing I am a "middle man" per the moderator's classification (correct?), I am, I think, invited to state a middle position. Keeping it brief, I think a middle position would be that sources which are classified as "generally reliable" at WP:RSP would be accepted so, without having to go through the movements at WP:RSN. These include a New York Times article about Walker's Chopin biography, and CNN, The Independent and The Guardian articles about the SRF radio broadcast. Not saying we need large wads of text in Wikipedia's Chopin biography based on these sources, but a decent mentioning of the key topic (Chopin's sexuality) from these reliable sources should be included in the biographical section of the Chopin article. The "gender" material (i.e. Kallberg), and other reception-related material, should get no more than brief mentioning in the "Reception"-related sections of the Chopin article (not disturbing the DUE/UNDUE balance of the reception narrative). Other than that, I can confirm that I agree with the moderator's proposal that this is rather suitable for a RFC procedure than a DRN page. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:30, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In case it will be helpful in preparing proposed text, I would like to state that the only source that appears to be RS as a somewhat qualified expert opinion is the Kallberg. It's pretty clear that any proposal based on newspaper accounts of radio accounts is going to be rejected, so OP might consider streamlining any proposal. SPECIFICOtalk17:40, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Francis regarding sourcing; I think WP:DUE adequately covers this situation, and see no need to withhold reliable mass media sources. I also agree that the Kallberg-on-music paragraph can be trimmed and moved to #Reception. I would like to see added a brief statement from Brett and Wood, another statement from Pizá, and part of the comment from the Chopin institute to the SRF piece. François Robere (talk) 15:00, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Articles about the SRF radio broadcast are not relevant sources; they are comments on a radio broadcast, not per se informed or reliable sources for a life of Chopin (which is the subject of this article). It is not a matter of 'witholding' mass-media sources - it is a question of seriously evaluating what they can contribute to an FA article. No one, despite this lengthy discussion here and on the talk page, has produced any evidence from any reliable source that Chopin was a practising homosexual at any stage of his career. There is suggestive evidence both that he had homoerotic thoughts at around the age of twenty, and that he had sexual relations with George Sand, as well as that he was attracted to Gladowska and was engaged to Wodzińska. That's it. Brett and Wood appear to have said nothing specific about Chopin - what is the 'brief statement' that François Robere would like to see? Pizá's comments on Chopin's sexuality are hypothesis without evidence base. Of course, as I have said on the talk page, absence of evidence about Chopin's sexual procliivites is not evidence of absence - but WP does not exist to peddle the hypotheses of its editors. Once again I remind editors that this is an FA article which needs to meet FA standards. It's not a rattle bag for chit-chat. I am also by the way concerned about the suggestions by User:Mathsci, User:kosboot and User:Toccata quarta of sock-puppeting in this matter, which I should like to see investigated.--Smerus (talk) 09:48, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I would suggest to add in a first steps the texts, pictures and citations below. The quote by Chopin could be placed in the life-section or in the sexuality-section. If placed in the sexuality-section it should be followed by the various interpretations of this passage and other erotic or affectionate passages (for example Larivière recognizing them as clearly homoerotic, Gesine Baur recognizing them as „Liebeserklärungen“, Alan Walker calling it highly erotic but a „mental twist“, or Zamoyski writing, Chopin could have added the name of a woman to some of these passages).
After reviewing the material that I moved to a section for User:Chip-chip-2020, I see that it is not formatted appropriately for a section of a Wikipedia article. Each editor who wants to propose any material on Chopin's sexuality should prepare a draft paragraph or section, so that I will be able to include it in the RFC (Request for Comments). That is, do not describe in general terms what you want the article to say. Write exactly what you want the article to say. If you have questions about this request, please ask the questions now. I would still like to get the RFC published within a week. It will take thirty days to run. You may put your recommended text in-line here, or create a subpage, except that if you include any images, please create a subpage, so as not to distract readers of DRN. Please write what you want the article to say, and we will ask the community to decide.
Robert McClenon (talk) 04:27, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This seems to me not unreasonable; I would suggest that the comment on Walker by Fonseca-Wollheim could go into a note, rather than the text. Thank you, Francis, for taking the trouble to set this out. I don't believe that the addition of the portrait of Tytus is useful, but the audio file is a nice idea.--Smerus (talk) 13:22, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Chopin: 3rd statement by kosboot
Smerus posted an excerpt from a reliable source which says exactly what I think the article needs to say. It is focused and does not get into the issue of gender identity which I think is another issue.
By the end of the summer he had reached new heights of emotional turmoil, ostensibly on account of Konstancja. Having met her well over a year before and immediately recognised her as his ‘ideal’ (the very word is redolent of schoolboy ritual), he had still not declared himself to her. ‘I could go on hiding my pathetic and ungainly passions for another couple of years,’ he wrote to Tytus, at the same time stressing their depth and force.31 Strong his feelings may have been, but they were certainly not exclusive. The brief infatuations with the Radziwiłł girls and Henriette Sontag are only some of the manifestations of an acute susceptibility to women. From his letters we know that at one soirée in August he saw a girl (who of course reminded him of Konstancja) whom he could not take his eyes off, and who had set his heart on fire by the end of the evening. Another day, in church, he caught the eye of ‘a certain person’, as a result of which he staggered out in a state of sensuous inebriation and nearly got himself run over by a passing carriage.
These and similar stories are recounted to Tytus in tones of mawkish self-pity, alongside assurances that he, Tytus, is in fact the most important person in Chopin’s life. While reaffirminghis constant and undying love for the girl, he would write to his friend that he thought constantly of him: ‘I do not forget you, I am with you, and it shall be so till death.’32 It was Tytus who would have a portrait of Chopin before Konstancja, and it was Tytus who was the recipient of what would have been love letters to Konstancja, had Chopin dared write to her. These letters, sometimes friendly, sometimes petulant, sometimes verging on the passionate, are freely strewn with declarations of love and affinity, and contain passages of extraordinary sensuality.
This has prompted some to conclude that the two young men were or had been lovers. On the face of it, the equivocal references to passions, secrets and torment combine with the extremely specific terms of endearment to make this appear plausible. Chopin signs off one letter to Tytus with the following jumble of childishness and coy eroticism:
I must go now and wash. So don’t embrace me now, as I haven’t washed myself yet. – You? If I anointed myself with fragrant oils from the East, – you wouldn’t embrace me, not unless I forced you to by magnetic means. But there are forces in Nature, and tonight you will dream that you are embracing me. – I have to pay you back for the nightmare you caused me last night!
Taken out of context, this may appear a little risqué, as might the endless kisses sent and demanded by Chopin. But these expressions were, and to some extent still are, common currency in Polish, and carry no greater implication than the ‘love’ people regularly sign off with today. And the traces of infantile eroticism in the letters are of little significance in themselves. The spirit of the times, pervaded by the Romantic movement in art and literature, favoured extreme expression of feeling and glorified transcendent friendship, and it is probably this that lies at the heart of these letters, written as they were at a period in Chopin’s life when he came nearest to living out the Romantic ideal.
While the possibility cannot be ruled out entirely, it is highly unlikely that the two were ever lovers. Had the slightly sentimental relationship between the older, stronger boy and his gentler, more emotional classmate really developed into a sexual rapport, it would almost certainly, knowing Chopin’s malleable and undecided nature, have become an exclusive and long-lasting passion. In such a case there would have been no reason for Chopin to sit about being bored in Warsaw while the bucolic seclusion of Tytus’s estate beckoned.
Third statements by editors (Chopin), continuation
The main editor of this FA has been User:Smerus. So far WP:CONSENSUS has been to put the new material from November 2020 into a footnote; and new ideas for changing the Chopin article have always been directly discussed on its talk page (to establish consensus). At the moment consensus has rejected parallel translations into Polish/English. In the current section on "sexuality", which has now shrunk, Kallberg's commentary on nocturnes and femininity remains; in his own work he has used a painting of salon music to illustrate the topic. Mathsci (talk) 09:03, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Fourth statement by moderator (Chopin)
Maybe when I state the ground rules I should transclude them rather than instructing the editors to read them. What wasn't understood about not editing the article?
But please continue providing statements as to what you want in an RFC. And don't just describe the work that will need to be done to write the section. Write it. It will be what the other editors will be !voting on. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:33, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Robert McClenon , when an editor puts forward a specific (and in this case detailed) proposal, s/he is by definition requesting comments on it. What François Robere has set out is not a "comment" but a proposed wholesale edit to the article. How will you, as an independent observer, gauge reactions and/or consensus if no other editor is allowed to comment on it? I detailed above specific objections to François Robere flagrantly biassed summary, and you have chosen to hide them from other editors. Please seek to be even-handed.--Smerus (talk) 10:11, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Fifth statement by moderator (Chopin)
Any editor who wants to present a viewpoint to be considered in the RFC should state it within 48 hours. In particular, if any editor wants any part of the existing article omitted, they should say what they want deleted. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:43, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As we enter the festive period, Robert McClenon seems to have misread the previous comments by user:Smerus, the main editor to have made the article Frédéric Chopin into a featured article. As Smerus has written, the proposed new material on the two letters of Chopin written to Tytus Woyciechowski in Polish, with English translations, does not conform to the high standards of the pre-existing featured article. Isolated sentences from the biography by Adam Zamoyski have been taken out of the context in which it was written; similarly the latest Chopin biography by Alan Walker. His recent book has received at least one negative review in the academic literature. In her review, historian Jolanta Pekacz from Dalhousie University writes:
Please click to view
Over a hundred biographies of Frederic Chopin have been published since his death in 1849, some two dozen of them in this century alone, and any new biographer faces a challenge to justify his entry into this crowded field. It is not clear what prompted Alan Walker to write a monumental volume of over 700 pages. It could not have been scholarship produced in "recent years" pertaining to George Sand, by which Walker means Georges Lubin’s edition of Sand’s letters completed in 1995 and Sand’s biography by Curtis Cate published in 1975 (p. 8), as these sources have been used by Chopin scholars for decades. Similarly, biographical information about Chopin’s friends and teachers from Warsaw can be found in the existing biographies and online reference sources (e.g., NIFC). In the end, Walker has only weasel words to justify his enterprise: "the times are generally absent from the story of Chopin’s life" creating “the void . . . waiting to be filled" and those cataclysmic events “are given short shrift in the many sanitized versions of Chopin’s life ..." (p. 19). [...] Retelling Chopin’s life story with a few new details and background information may easily take up 700 pages but is not likely to forge new ways of looking at Chopin. In fact, Walker’s biography effectively reinforces the existing clichés, including those that have already been questioned: about Chopin being "fully formed" by the time he left Poland; about his "close" rapport with the Polish aristocracy; about his connections with the Polish circles in Paris; or about his frequent appearances in the salons. [...] The certainty with which Walker "knows" these things and confidence with which he states his opinions is a reminder that no evidence is needed or doubt allowed in the political correctness department.
As far as the proposed changes are concerned, all of the nineteenth-century letters are primary sources; there are no recorded letters from Woyciechowski to Chopin; and the correspondence between Sand and Chopin was destroyed after his death on his own instructions. Adding epistolary content in pre-existing sections—on schoolfriends, Sand, her daughter and Custine—in the body of the article or in footnotes might achieve WP:consensus on the user talk page. Any potential RfC on Talk:Frédéric Chopin should be phased in neutral terms, without begging questions. Mathsci (talk) 11:53, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps I need to explain what I am trying to do at this point. I am trying to get proposed sections for the article to go to the community for the RFC. We are not discussing the proposed sections. The discussion can and will be done when the RFC is discussed. For the time being, please, just let me know what you want to propose be in the article, or what you want to propose be taken out of the article. We know that there is disagreement. We aren't trying to compromise. So you do not need to comment, only provide your proposed section. Thank you. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:37, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sixth statements by editors (Chopin)
Please find then my specific proposals here. Ignore the numbering of the headings of course, they will come as they fall out in the context of the article as a whole. The proposals, as far as the intended Rfc is concerned, involve:
para. 3 of 'Travel and domestic success'.
the sub-section 'Sexuality', to be relocated in 'Reception and influence'; I would suggest as the last sub-section under this heading.
Other references to the topic of Chopin's sexuality (if any) to be removed from the article.
I respectfully request other editors not to edit the page on which my proposals are located. However I am open to suggestions as to how they could be improved.--Smerus (talk) 12:53, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
These seem very reasonable, with a little polish (no pun intended). The 2010 documentary "Chopin: the women behind the music" (available on YouTube) featured biographer A. Zamoyski and music historian H. Goldberg. Chopin's relations with women are described in the wikipedia article, perhaps not directly in terms of sexuality. In the case of Jenny Lind and Chopin, conjectures about their liason have been speculative and, as the dust has settled, impossible to determine. Similar speculation surrounds Chopin's letters to Woyciechowski: the dust is still swirling around there. Mathsci (talk) 14:12, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I find Smerus's proposed text very good. One thing I suggest is an invisible comment (as is done in the lead of the article concerning Chopin's nationality) telling potential editors not to edit this section without discussion on the talk page. Perhaps the editors' lengthy discussion of this topic on the talk page as well as a pointer to this DRN discussion can be included as a separate file in the archive of the talk page. - kosboot (talk) 14:21, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think Smerus has done well here. However I think the sentence citing Piza adds nothing and elevates an empty remark from an academic not noted for Chopin scholarship. I'd delete it. Arthur Rubinstein's personal reminiscence about the circumstances of his youth is UNDUE. And although he is well-known to us, he is not of the stature of earlier pianists such as Liszt, Busoni, Anton Rubinstein et al who did not play like polite girls. The Schenker bit is interesting, but I am not sure it was historically iinfluential. Just serves to negate the effeminate Chopin idea, which Smerus has adequately contextually w.o help from Heinrich. SPECIFICOtalk17:32, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Seventh statement by moderator (Chopin)
This is what I will be posting for the RFC. If you follow certain traditions concerning December 25, it may appear in your sock.
Robert McClenon (talk) 04:52, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
Which of the following sections on Chopin's sexuality should be included in the article? Robert McClenon (talk) 06:00, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
E. I apologize for not placing my text recommendations in the appropriate slot – I'm not familiar with how to do it.
I broadly agree with most of Francis Schonken's comments made at 9:13, 24 December 2020, after his above–proposed text – periodize the "Frédéric Chopin" text into "Poland" and "France" rather than into "Early life" and "Career"; and in the music–reception parts, provide any serious matter concerning the emotional influences on Chopin's compositions, not necessarily viewed specifically as "sexual" (arguably, sexual strands of one kind or another exist in every individual's life, and – as the Fryderyk Chopin Institute representative observed – Chopin was very discreet about his actual sexual involvements, so that not much is known about them; while he is known to have experienced infatuations with quite a few women).
Chopin's adolescent correspondence – whose varied interpretations precipitated this controversy – would adequately be treated in something like the article's current note 6.
As background for further disputants, I recommend taking the 90 minutes to view the 2010 BBC documentary, "Chopin: the Women behind the Music", [2], available on YouTube.
Chopin was, from childhood, mesmerized by the female singing voice. As Emanuel Ax shows, Chopin managed to capture that voice on the piano. The music of Chopin, this "basically very shy" man, captivates with "the sheer depth of his emotional experience."
The "status quo" option should be mentioned in the RfC. I'd propose to formulate it somewhat like this (and implement it in the RfC lead section unless Robert prefers to do this themselves):
I'd propose the moderator closes (or at least suspends until closure of the RfC) the current DRN topic: the discussion is now back to the article's talk page (in RfC format), so keeping the same discussion open here will only lead to contraproductive splitting of one discussion over two pages.
No one... has produced any evidence from any reliable source that Chopin was a practising homosexual at any stage of his career No one produced evidence that he was a practising heterosexual either, yet the text is written under the assumption that he was.
No one has produced any evidence that Chopin was not from outer space. Yet the text is written under the assumption that he was an Earthling.--Smerus (talk) 13:27, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Are you seriously suggesting homosexuality is so foreign that we ought to disregard it as an option by default? (And is this grounded in Policy in any way?) François Robere (talk) 16:58, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Articles about the SRF radio broadcast are not relevant sources Commenters quoted in those articles include Aleksander Laskowski, spokeperson for the Fryderyk Chopin Institute; and David Frick, Prof. em. at the Dept of Slavic Languages and Literatures at UC Berkley, who translated Chopin's letters. Surely these two are relevant for our purpose.
Brett and Wood criticize the literature for assuming by default that Chopin is heterosexual lest a smoking gun is provided (not unlike some of our colleagues here), all the while showing "a constant embarrassment or evasion that supports the point about an ingrained homophobia in music scholarship". Some part of this would make a good addition, but what exactly depends on how we write the rest of the section.
Pizá's comments on Chopin's sexuality are hypothesis without evidence base No, they're interpretations of existing evidence - just like Walker and Zamoyski's comments, which we do mention.
Could one of the inclusion advocates please state briefly why anything called "Chopin's sexuality" is relevant to this article and significant for his notability? Having reviewed several sources available to me, I do see many references to silly, vacuous, speculation or contemporaneous characterization of him as effeminate (whatever that meant in the 1800s where everyone wore ruffles, wigs, and freely splashed themselves with cologne?) or even as androgenous or a hermaphrodite. Well, I think if that had been the case they would have discovered it when they dissected his corpse. I could see a mention of the nonsense that persisted during and for a while after his lifetime. But gender issues are so specific to time and place that the sort of discussion that purports to be about Chopin's sexuality rather than about associated uninformed chatter seem entirely UNDUE. What about Liszt with his girly hairdo? Some of his groupies must have been openly homosexual. SPECIFICOtalk20:21, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
A vaguely written additional sentence was added by François Robere today. The source, written by musicologist Errin Knyt, was an article on Busoni's rewriting of some Chopin Études. No page numbers were cited, but Knyt's "abstract" contained the relevant sentence (the one in quotes). Knyt's whole abstract has to be read in full to see whether it is relevant for inclusion. My view is that Knyt's article concerns mostly Busoni—typed letters and musical manuscripts—not Chopin. The source is impeccable, but, like the Chopin-Godowsky Études, it is slanted in a different direction, i.e. Busoni not Chopin. Mathsci (talk) 00:00, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There's a whole section in that article on reactions to Chopin, which you clearly had no problem finding. What her interests are is irrelevant, as the examples she provides are clear and align perfectly with various other sources. François Robere (talk) 13:23, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I am sorry that my extra-terrestrial example does not appeal to François Robere; so I offer the following as an alternative. Chopin spent his mature life in France; his father was French, he was able to speak and write in French, and at one point he had a French passport. Yet despite this, the article has the temerity to centre on the alleged 'fact' that he was Polish. Clearly this must be proof that certain wicked people are seeking to suppress the fact that Chopin considered himself to be entirely French, even though there is no evidence that he though so.--Smerus (talk) 10:18, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Having written on minorities in several sensitive TAs, I indeed do not find your sarcasm appealing. We are to summarise facts as they appear in sources, not make our own assumptions, yet the discussion is rife with assumptions. If you have no sources that clearly state that Chopin was X, you're in no position to state that he wasn't Y. It's as simple as that. François Robere (talk) 13:19, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'd also try to keep the discussion (I mean among us 21st-century Wikipedians) as politically correct as possible. It's not because Kallberg analyses 19th- and early 20th-century stereotyping (which, e.g., links effeminacy to non-straightness, something that would frown many a brow nowadays), without participating himself in the historical discourse (probably explaining why some of his prose is more than a bit esoteric), that we should join the older, currently no longer politically correct, mode of expression. The analyses on such touchy topics in reliable sources only belong in a Wikipedia article if it is clear which comment belongs to which period. --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:00, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
To the source excerpt posted by Smerus, and quoted above by Kosboot, may usefully be added Smerus's further post from the same source:
"[In 1832, in France] the memory of Konstancja [Gładkowska] kept cropping up in [Chopin]'s thoughts […] 'Her image is continually before my eyes,' he wrote in his diary, adding that 'sometimes I think I no longer love her, yet I cannot get her out of my head.'"
So much for the assertion of some that Chopin never took a romantic interest in this teen soprano – or in women generally.
Far too much attention to these two letters to Titus. On what basis is the 1829 letter construed to have any homosexual import? - you do not give any justification or reference for assuming this. What is meant by the suggestion that TW was "the true object of the composer's affection throughout the period" - which period? are we talking about the 11 months between the letters (i.e. when Chopin was 19 or 20, before he had embarked on his career) - or just the time of the 1830 letter - or implying that a larger period is involved? What evidence is offered by the broadcast about Chopin's affections elsewhere at this time? Why do we gloss over the broadcast's utterly unjustified attempts to ignore the reality of involvement with Gladowska and others? Are we talking about the 11 months between the letters? "In other letters he is more suggestive" - who demonstrates that the first letter is suggestive at all? What does the Piza quote add - we see anyway from the letters to TW that Chopin may have had homosexual desires, in what way does Piza show them to be "clear"? Who on earth is Corinna da Fonseca-Wollheim? (ah, this explains, perhaps, her valuable status as an authority) and why is her slagging off of George Sand (itself rather insensitive to a minority) of any relevance to this article? It's all grossly unencyclopaedic and phrased and arranged in a decidedly non-neutral style so as to give weight to sensationalized journalism vis-a-vis measured scholarly assessment.--Smerus (talk) 22:31, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
User:Mathsci Different editors have different ideas as to what is the festive period. I do not consider the northern winter solstice to be a festive occasion toward the end of a very dark year, but only a day when the light begins to dispel the deep darkness. In my religious practice, the festive period begins in a little more than 48 hours in eastern North America.
User:Mathsci - I have moved the comment by User:Smerus to the section for back-and-forth discussion, where it belongs. When there is an RFC, each editor will be able to present their own recommendation, and their own argument for it and against other arguments. What I am trying to do at this point is to get each of the editors to organize their own recommendations so that we can send the RFC forward to the community. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:42, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
What I'm missing in your proposal is the links to what Chopin was composing in and around the 1829–1830 period, notably the two piano concertos (and shortly before that period: the variations dedicated to Woyciechowski, and the Krakowiak). Whether or not Chopin was in love with Gładkowska or someone else is less important, from a biographical point of view, than the simple fact that the concertos were written in a period *when Chopin was in love*. Leaving the concertos unmentioned in the biographical description of the period of these passions feels like an omission to me.
IMHO the Gładkowska/Woyciechowski episode belongs to Chopin's "youth" (thus rather to be positioned in Frédéric Chopin#Early Life than Frédéric Chopin#Career) I'm basing myself for this thought on biographers' comments implying that the letters from this period show a Chopin far from maturity (to a certain extent "infantile", or showing "childishness", using Zamoyski's epithets). Maybe, instead of the "Early life" and "Career" subsections, we should have "Poland" and "Paris" as subsections, which is the more usual subdivision (Chopin leaving Poland for the last time and settling in Paris is usually seen as the main cesura in his life, not the "Early life"/"Career" distinction: the composer's career had started some time before his education finished, and what is "Early life" to a composer who didn't live very long?) The first subsection ("Poland") could then include some early successes (in Poland and abroad), and the second ("Paris") would not need to return in time to his earliest concert tours). I'm indifferent whether, in that more chronological account, the period between the departure from Poland in late 1830 and his arrival in Paris (where he ultimately settled) in 1831 is treated at the end of the "Poland" subsection or at the start of the "Paris" subsection.
I'm (in general) no big fan of explanatory footnotes that contain part of a narrative (or alternative versions thereof: for NPOV presentation reasons). In this case, for the explanatory footnote included in your proposal I'd include the first sentence in the body of the article, and omit the whole part about the 2020 Polish reactions (which is not part of a biographical narrative, and too much WP:RECENTISM for the reception narrative).
Regarding the "Sexuality" section you propose as subsection of "Reception and Influence" – I'd shorten that: per WP:BALASPS it seems to give more weight to the gender/sexuality aspect in reception than the place that topic actually occupies in Chopin reception. Also, as at least a substantial part of that content is based on Kallberg's "gender" studies (not the same as sexuality), a section title exclusively referring to sexuality, and not to gender, is imho not OK.
I broadly agree with most of Francis Schonken's above comments: periodize the text into "Poland" and "France" rather than into "Early life" and "Career"; and in the music-reception parts, provide any serious matter concerning the emotional influences on Chopin's compositions, not necessarily viewed specifically as "sexual" (arguably, sexual strands of one kind or another exist in every individual's life, and – as the Fryderyk Chopin Institute representative observed – Chopin was very discreet about his actual sexual involvements, so that not all that much is known about them, while he is known to have experienced infatuations with quite a few women).
Chopin's adolescent correspondence would adequately be treated in something like the article's current note 6.
I recommend taking the 90 minutes to view the 2010 BBC documentary, "Chopin: the Women behind the Music", [3], available on YouTube.
Chopin was, from childhood, mesmerized by the female singing voice. As Emanuel Ax shows, he managed to capture that voice on the piano. The music of Chopin, this "basically very shy" man, captivates with "the sheer depth of his emotional experience."
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
After a long back and forth regarding this Wikipedia page the discussion was locked by a superuser (keri) who reviewed the content in our favor. A new user, Doniago, made several misleading content changes that just go back to the original discussion that was already decided. From 2016:The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The dispute was elevated to Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Talk:Frederick S. Jaffe. (non-admin closure) Keri (talk) 10:44, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The dispute was elevated to Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Talk:Frederick S. Jaffe. (non-admin closure) Keri (talk) 10:44, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
Please prevent Doniago or anyone else from changing the content again
Summary of dispute by Doniago
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by Robert McClenon
I am taking part in this discussion as an involved editor, not as a DRN volunteer, but only if User:Doniago chooses to participate also. The filing party is mistaken in thinking that either User:Keri or anyone else locked the page. The applicable policies are conflict of interest, neutral point of view and verifiability. The filing party is the son of the subject of the article and so has a conflict of interest and should not be directly editing the article. The filing party does have a legitimate interest in protecting his father's historical reputation from conspiracy theories about a document known as the Jaffe memo. There had been an unsourced paragraph about the Jaffe memo. After the paragraph was tagged as needing a citation for two years, User:Doniago removed the paragraph entirely.
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Volunteer Note
The DRN is a place for discussion and compramise, are you sure that is what you want to engage in? Or are you looking for administrator intervention? If so, you need to go to the WP:ANI. If you do want a discussion, please let me know and myself or another volunteer will begin. (Forgot to sign!!) Nightenbelle (talk) 19:54, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This one user will not concede that Miklos Horthy and Fidesz are nationalists. He is basically using original research to justify his claims. I have. tried to look up sources for what he calls Hungarian Nationalism vs Hungarian Nationalism and I have found nothing. He is trying to segregate that category for far right and fascists, even though other categories under this umbrella are not held to that standard. If there were a far right group called Hungarian Nationalists than I can forgive it but there is no such group called that. National Conservatism is a form of nationalism, it even says so on its wikipedia page. It embraces both Conservatism and Nationalism. So by definition if you are a national conservative than you are a nationalist and a conservative. I am holding this category to the same standard as all other nationalist categories. Let us go south from Hungary for second and go to the category, Serbian nationalists. This category includes the Chetniks, the fascists, The Milosevic era politicians, the Serb Democratic Party (Bosnia and Herzegovina) which is a national Conservative party and Aleksandar Vučić who runs a conservative and populist government. Are these all the same? No. The Chetniks- The Chetniks were Royalists, however the Milosevic politicians were communists. You don't have to be a certain political orientation to be a nationalist. Or let us use Romania. There was Ion Antonescu, the fascist leader of Romania, and Nicolae Ceausescu the Communist leader of Romania, both were nationalist just had a different way of implementing it. It would be inappropriate to NOT call either one a nationalist. Just because you are not a fascist or a far right winger, doesn't mean that you aren't a nationalist. There ar things like National Communism and left wing nationalism, I don't have to love them or support them, but I have to acknowledge that they are forms of nationalism. I have credible sources like BBC and WSJ on my side.There ar things like National Communism and left wing nationalism, I don't have to love them or support them, but I have to acknowledge that they are forms of nationalism. I have credible sources like BBC and WSJ on my side. He also keeps ignoring the fact that his argument is essentially original research.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by KIENGIR
Repeating an already discussed discussion is useless, the user fails to understand the explanations and arguments and repeatedly implying those false assertions as presented here (as well in other pages commited problematic assertions and edits). The debate has nothing to with user's initial assertions - which are even the same way problematic -, but for what the category was meant for.(KIENGIR (talk) 05:12, 25 December 2020 (UTC))[reply]
Summary of dispute by Nigej
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Miklós Horthy discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Volunteer Note - The filing editor has listed the other editors, but has not notified them. The rule that other editors should be notified of any noticeboard filings involving them applies to all Wikipedia noticeboards, and is not special to DRN. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:07, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Armenia and Artsakh accused Azerbaijan of using phosphorus munition against Artsakh, with France 24, The Independent and Le Point publishing supporting articles including an independent medical expertise by a French doctor. A sentence following these supporting citations by Grandmaster denies the phosphorus use by Azerbaijan and cites two Russian-language articles - one featuring Russian "expert" Murakhovsky who is known for 1) claiming that phosphorus burns at 1000 C despite 2,760 C prevailing in literature 2) being a Russian propagandist 12 3) calling for invasion of "Nazi Ukraine" 12 4) claiming that white phosphorus "is not used in modern munitions" which contradicts with the evidence of white phosphorus use in recent wars 12, 5) claiming the superiority of Turkish military UAVs is a "myth" 1 6) claiming the Ukrainain plane was not hit in Iran and some Russian and Azerbaijani "experts" whose purely theoretical arguments raise questions about their credibility.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
1) Could uninvolved editors make a judgement whether the sentence denying the phosphorus use by Azerbaijan despite credible international publications saying the contrary has a right to stay in the article? 2) if yes, can you please make a judgement whether selectively citing the references denying phosphorus use by both Azerbaijani and Armenians only in the section about Azerbaijani war crimes but not in the section about Armenian war crimes is a fair approach to this article? Many thanks!
Summary of dispute by Grandmaster
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Thanks for taking this for dispute resolution, however WP:RSN would probably be a more appropriate venue. In any case, let me present my argumentation. The use of white phosphorus is claimed by both sides of the conflict, but there's so far no in depth investigation by an authoritative independent organization, such as HRW and Amnesty international, whose experts previously investigated the use of cluster munitions and other violations of war conduct rules in this conflict. Reports in mass media are based on information provided by one of the sides, and cannot be considered as witness or expert account. But in any case, our role here is not to prove or disprove whether or not phosphorus was used, but to report what the notable sources say. Media reports are quoted in the article, and so are 3 military expert opinions. Military experts all say that there's no sufficient evidence to prove the use of phosphorus by either side of the conflict. Murakhovsky is only one of the 3 experts saying the same thing. He is only linked as a source in the article, for further information if anyone is interested. The main source is actually the other 2 experts, one of whom is colonel Anatoly Tsyganok, a well-known military expert in Russia, whose biography could be found on Forbes website: [5] I think our purpose is to present balanced information, and not just the claims that support a certain position. Therefore the opinions of military experts questioning the claims on phosphorus use are notable and important for objective presentation of information in the article. Also please note that those experts are neutral in this conflict, they do not take any sides, and they all say that both sides have not presented any reliable evidence that white phosphorus was used. Grandmaster20:17, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Btw, I do not mind if expert opinions questioning the use of phosphorous are included for both Armenian and Azerbaijani allegations. I never said that they should only apply to the Armenian allegations. Grandmaster10:17, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Summary of dispute by Sataralynd
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Summary of dispute by Beshogur
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I am not following the original discussion but seems like the user called me because deleted one of his text, which here it states: This, however, contradicts with the reports that the Syrian government .... deployed white phosphorus munitions via airstrikes and artillery on different occasions during the Syrian Civil War., where you see that it is clearly an OR mixed with old sources. No idea about the rest of the discussion tho. Beshogur (talk) 01:06, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Summary of dispute by Solavirum
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First statement by moderator (War crimes discussion)
Please read the rules for moderated discussion. Read them again if you are not certain. Do not edit the article while discussion is in progress. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors. The purpose of discussion is to improve the article. My first question is whether this dispute is primarily about the reliability of sources. If so, we might do better to ask the reliable source noticeboard to rule on the reliability of the source. My second question is for each editor to tell as precisely as possible what they want the article to say about the focus of the dispute. If the issue has to do with the reliability of claims that white phosphorus was used, then who was reported by what source to have made that claim? Do not reply to each other, except in the section for back-and-forth discussion. The statements by editors should be addressed to me, as the representative of the community. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:22, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
First statements by editors
Back-and-forth discussion
Indeed, the issue is about the reliability of sources, since Armatura (talk·contribs) questions that. I also think that WP:RS might be a more appropriate venue. The claims on use of phosphorus were made by both sites of the conflict, but there's no independent verification by an authoritative organization such as HRW or Amnesty international, whose experts usually do expert assessments of war conduct rule violations. However the article quotes a number of military experts who see no convincing evidence that phosphorus was used by either side of the conflict. Those experts have no connection to either side of the conflict, so they are neutral on this particular issue. Armatura questions credibility of one of them, and generally is against inclusion of skeptical views. But I think that in order to maintain WP:NPOV it is important to include all opinions, and not just those that support the narrative of the parties to the conflict. Grandmaster10:29, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks, Robert McClenon. It is mostly about the reliability of sources with experts denying the phosphorus use in NKR, hence I don't mind if this discussion is transferred to WP:RS, if you think it is a more suitable place, I am still learning what to discuss where. My other objection was that sentence denying the phosphorus use by both sides was for some reason put under only suspected Azerbaijani war crimes but not under suspected Armenian war crimes. I appreciate Grandmaster (talk·contribs)'s readiness to fix that, but I am still questioning the initial logic of selectively posting a seemingly neutral content to deny a war crime by Azerbaijan only. I argue that the citation 537 featuring highly controversial and unreliable "expert" Murakhovsky's claims should be deleted and it looks like Grandmaster agrees at least with that. I also question the reliability of the other reference - it is a Russian language article from Kavkaz-Uzel, that features two Russian experts who, basing their opinion purely on the appearances of the video of alleged phosphorus use by Azerbaijan, published by Armenian ombudsman, question whether it was phosphorus at all. One Russian expert - captain Vasilyh Dadikin is reported saying the video was not convincing and that it could be anything up to smoke grenades (Василий Дандыкин счел видео, опубликованное Арманом Татояном, не убедительным. "То, что там изображено, может быть чем угодно, вплоть до дымовых шашек", - сказал он.). The other Russian expert, Anatoly Tsyganok, the head of the Russian Center for Political-Military Studies is reported saying "In videos of phosphorus munition use by Israel against Gaza one can see a rocket flying, then opening and spraying phosphorus, but here we don't see it ("Известно, что фосфорные боеприпасы применял Израиль против сектора Газа. Сохранились видеосъемки: летит ракета, раскрывается и из нее сыплется фосфор. Здесь же этого нет", - указал он.). The trouble with Kavkaz-Uzel article is that 1) there was no expertise done beyond just looking at the video 2) it interviews an Azerbaijani expert Azad Isazade (who goes as far as implying that it might have been the Armenians burning their own forests to create a smoke cover - "армянским военным использовать фосфорное оружие выгодно - Это создание помех для средств воздушного нанесения ударов азербайджанской армии".) but not Armenian experts, and this raises a question about the impartiality of the authors of the article (Russia's is the 149th out of 180 countries in terms of press freedom index), 3) the article cites Azerbaijani expert saying that "Azerbaijan signed the convention on chemical warfare use, that prohibits the phosphorus munition use. ("Азербайджан подписал Конвенцию о запрещении разработки, производства, накопления и применения химического оружия и его уничтожении, которая регулирует запрет применения фосфорных боеприпасов"), however this contradicts with France24 publication which highlighted that "the use of white phosphorus is strictly regulated under an international agreement that neither Azerbaijan nor Armenia have signed", this raises a question whether Kavkaz-Uzel has vigorous editorial process at all to verify the claims in the article.
What are the solutions I see? 1) One option is removing the phosphorus-use-not-used Kavkaz-uzel expert opinions at all. 2) Or, cite them under both Azerbaijani and Armenian suspected war crimes with greater attribution and clarity, like "two Russian military experts, after viewing the video evidence provided by the Armenian side, did not find it to be convincing, and expressed their doubts that white phosphorus was used by either side of the conflict". Plus, if we are citing opinions based purely on visuals, add the Atlantis Global's DRFLab's investigation based on analysis of satellite images that supports the phosphorus use. One may argue that medium.com has been highlighted as unreliable source, however Modern Diplomacy' Turkish author cites it, and I don't think Kavkaz-Uzel's article's credibility is higher than DRFLab. Armatura (talk) 17:30, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Closed as premature. The filing editor is a new editor who may not know that they should discuss their edits on the article talk page, Talk:Erin Sanders, as the first step in any dispute resolution process, before coming here or to any other noticeboard. Discussion on a user talk page is useful, but is not a substitute for discussion on the article talk page, and there has been no recent discussion on the article talk page. Discuss on the article talk page. If discussion is lengthy and inconclusive, a new request can be posted here. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:29, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Hello, I am a relatively new user on Wikipedia, but trying to make high quality edits when I can. However, my edits on the page "Erin Sanders" keep getting removed. On my talk page, I received a notice that my edits are disruptive, with a link to this disruption resolution process. I'm not really sure what this means. I thought that my first edit was removed because I split some author's names into first= and last=, which isn't allowed. But then when I resubmitted an even more thorough edit without this change, it was still rejected.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
I want to go through the disruption resolution process before I make any more edits. If some more people could take a look at my edits, I would appreciate your feedback. Or, if there is another place to go through the disruption process, please forward me there as well. I want to make sure I understand before making any further edits. Thank you.
Summary of dispute by IJBall
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Erin Sanders discussion
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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The article omitted "One's genetic relative (Leviticus 18:6) (Leviticus 18:24–28)" which was the part of my Haftorah portion. The mod for the page claimed to be a Jewish Rabbi but has made work edits on the Shabbat and during a holiday which were time stamped UTC which would mean that despite his claim of being Israeli he still made the edits during the Shabbat and again during a holiday that if he was actually a Rabbi he would have been performing a service during. They seek to remove this addition of the beginning of that Torah section along with additional supporting citation from the Talmud, Midrash, and other actual Jewish authorities. It is 100% transparent that they are not Jewish nor are they Rabbis and are legitimately omitting portions of the related Torah section to twist and contort the narrative to allow for incest and pagan worship. This paints a narrative of Judaism which is full of depravity and creates a social narrative that we Jew practice inbreeding.
I can again supply the additional sources that support the prohibition against relationships from genetic relatives and the specifically cited section of the Torah literally says: "None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness.", the Hebrew reads the same but I figure it would be easier for the dispute resolver to have it in Hebrew.
This was literally my Haftorah portion and as such during Hebrew school I was required to spend several hours a day learning the specifics of this one section. Spent roughly 5 years or so learning just this section and the related cases from through-out Jewish history related to relationship judgements.
I am not sure about if the mod themselves are just ignorant, trolling, or actually antisemitic so I am hoping to keep this to the content of the page, but it is slanderous against Jews.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Leave my edit in and find someone who is at least actually Jewish to moderate the page instead of a poser. This is how misinformation and antisemitism breed. Some non-Jew thinks they can alter and omit portions of the Torah and then they propagate that narrative as Judaism.
Summary of dispute by Debresser
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Forbidden Relationships in Judaism discussion
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– General close. See comments for reasoning.
– New discussion.
– Discussion in progress.