Wikipedia:Wikiquette assistance

Welcome to wikiquette assistance
Wikiquette assistance is a forum where editors who feel they are being treated uncivilly can request assistance. The goal here is to help all parties in a situation come to a mutually agreeable solution. It is designed to function via persuasion, reason, and community support, rather than threats or blocks. Your first resort should be a polite attempt to discuss the problem with the other editor(s). No binding decisions are issued here. If you seek blocks or bans, see WP:ANI instead. Sections older than 5 days archived by MiszaBot II. (For help, see Wikipedia:Purge) Please notify any users involved in a dispute. You may use {{subst:WQA-notice}} to do so.
Search the Wikiquette archives Additional notes: Before posting, see that you've made every attempt to follow the advice at Guide to avoiding disputes. Consider the helpful advice here and see the dispute resolution process. Include diffs that show the situation. See the Simplest diff guide for help. The conduct of all parties will be taken into account. Assistance may involve suggestions for altering your own behavior to avoid conflict. Volunteers are welcome. See the volunteer instructions.
To start a new request, enter a name (section header) for your request below:

Active alerts

Ned Scott

Stale

 – Ncmvocalist (talk) 03:23, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

User:Ned Scott is making comments which breach our policies and guidance. [1], [2], [3], [4], I have tried to raise the matter with the user, but it is escalating the issue, User talk:Ned Scott#Civility and personal attacks. Hiding T 12:14, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I apologized for the edit summary one, and even stopped editing after I made it, realizing I had gotten to heated about it. The last one, [5], doesn't break Wikiquette, so I don't even know why you mention it. As for the other two, I'll agree they broke Wikiquette. I probably shouldn't have said the "fool" comment to you, Hidding, but I stand by my "bullshit" comment to Vassyana. I don't know what you think posting here will do about any of this. -- Ned Scott 12:21, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

In the last one you state "Don't act stupid". That doesn't seem to assume good faith. I hope posting here will garner outside opinion on the issue. Hiding T 13:00, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I offer my observations and a suggestion. Vassyana is working on some policy debate which I won't get into, but which is clearly intense for several interested editors. Ned Scott I think has spoken in haste and realises it now. I am satisfied by his apology here and I think Hiding should be too, and not press this complaint further. To you Ned Scott I point out that certain words you have posted are uncivil and could be removed without any loss of the useful points you make. I suggest that you do exactly that. I don't see any policy to hinder one from applying WP:RPA to one's own posts, and to do so would certainly regain for you a high moral ground (and incidentally respect from me). Your good nature will doubtless guide you in this decision. Here is a specific list of the words that you surely can excise:

Bullshit. Thanks for making the situation worse, and sticking your nose in a situation you don't even understand.

Damn it, Pixelface, the adults would like to have a nice conversation now, could you please knock off all the nonsensical ranting.

..you guys have your panties in a bind because..

Jebus people,..

You don't go acting like a fool like you did and remove sections of policy because you're having your period.

Don't act stupid, Percy, you know full well...

It's like you're one of those typo nazis... Cuddlyable3 (talk) 17:51, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Cuddlyable3. These are the points I am trying to get across, but perhaps not doing so as well. I am indeed happy with the apology. All the best, Hiding T 09:36, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I was going to start a thread here regarding Ned Scott's recent comments but I see this one is open already. In the past three days, Ned has made comments like:

• 21:16, 13 May 2008 (UTC): "If you guys want to freak out because of some recent discussions on this particular talk page, then get a grip. Wikipedia is more than this talk page, and that section doesn't suddenly lose support because a hand full of Wikipedians have their panties in a bind."[6]
• 21:24, 13 May 2008 (UTC): "We owe it to the project to consider things beyond this talk page, and to not be so shallow that we flip out right away because of some recent discussion where some people got all pissy."[7]
• 04:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC): "Your interpretation that he can't start a section heading is moronic"[8]
• 04:12, 14 May 2008 (UTC): "And for the love of god, the entire point of his restriction was to make him take these issues to the talk page."[9]
• 06:18, 15 May 2008 (UTC): "Jesus, what's wrong with you?" and "You have no clue about TTN, do you?"[10]
• 11:34, 15 May 2008 (UTC): "I'm sorry you guys have your panties in a bind because there's some users who don't apply things from WP:NOT correctly, and misunderstand what it says. Jebus people, that's been a problem for every single WP:NOT entry"[11]
• 11:39, 15 May 2008 (UTC): "I'm going to start a list of every time you say something so mind-blowingly stupid and false. Do you think the protecting admin gives a crap about the dispute?" and "Damn it, Pixelface, the adults would like to have a nice conversation now, could you please knock off all the nonsensical ranting."[12]
• 11:43, 15 May 2008 (UTC): "You don't go acting like a fool like you did and remove sections of policy because you're having your period."[13]
• 13:02, 15 May 2008 (UTC): "Let me repeat something, since you are having such a hard time understanding it" and "And on a side note, it is shameful the way you are campaigning to drive TTN off the project because of what amounts to a content dispute. Who's next? Will you be supporting a bogus block on me if it suits your needs?"[14]
• 04:08, 16 May 2008 (UTC): "You guys don't even know what you're talking about"[15]

I understand that Ned thinks TTN's recent block was completely unjustified and that Ned has a different interpretation than me of the restrictions imposed on TTN. And I understand that Ned supports keeping WP:PLOT in WP:NOT while I support its removal. I can understand it if he's frustrated. But I think comments like "I'm going to start a list of every time you say something so mind-blowingly stupid and false." and "Damn it, Pixelface, the adults would like to have a nice conversation now, could you please knock off all the nonsensical ranting."[16] are absolutely uncalled for and are a breach of the civility policy as well as the no personal attacks policy. In the past I have said I was happy to have Ned as a fellow editor and fellow human being, but he has lost all the respect I have for him with his latest remarks. --Pixelface (talk) 07:58, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

• Note, many of these comments are already being dealt with above. I'm not sure we need to quote the full text of the remarks, I believe diffs are all that is necessary. Ned has already apologised above, so I think we can leave it there? Hiding T 09:36, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Apologized to whom? --Pixelface (talk) 18:52, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
    • To the community. -- Ned Scott 04:41, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
      • And I stand by most of those above example comments you've listed, Pixel. Most of them are examples of frustrations, but are not necessarily uncivil. Regardless if you've lost all respect for me, I still have some respect for you. Life isn't so black and white that we have to hate someone just because of a few disputes. -- Ned Scott 04:45, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
        • I don't hate you. I said I no longer respect you. If you don't think those comments are uncivil, I don't know what to say. And the only thing black and white about this is you acting like Jekyll and Hyde. --Pixelface (talk) 11:45, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Ned Scott I represent the community that you claim to have apologised to. The Wikipedia community can tolerate an occasional expression of "bullshit". It can not tolerate the collateral damage you are causing by sustained incivility viz. the examples we see above. Your intemperate speech deters people from joining a discussion where you take part. That, and not anyone's "hate" that you may imagine, will be the reason for likely administrative action to block you for a while from tainting Wikipedia further with your "frustrations". (I am not an administrator.) Cuddlyable3 (talk) 20:19, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

You mean the lynch mob after User:TTN? I don't believe I would feel bad at all if I deterred someone from joining in and attacking a good editor. It really is shameful to try to drive someone off the project because of a content dispute, and that is something that should be said. -- Ned Scott 06:27, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Abuse by Scheinwerfermann

Stale

 – Ncmvocalist (talk) 03:24, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

User:Scheinwerfermann has twice referred to ongoing discussion at Talk:Fuel_injection as "a pissing contest" with me. On that page he also directs the following surprising prose to me:

....As to competitive urination, invitation doesn't enter into it. It's sort of like a spontaneous orgy: Nobody's invited, everyone just knows to come! Here, have some loo roll. You appear to need it. Friendly greetings from someplace that is not America! --Scheinwerfermann 20:37, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Since I am about to propose new improvements to the fuel injection page in a spirit of seeking consensus with other editors, it would be valuable to get guidance first from others about the civility of the discussion to date. (I expect that Scheinwerfermann will want to comment on what I shall propose, and that user may need firm reminding of WP:NPA policy, even after he was explicitly alerted to the WP:RPA essay last year.)Cuddlyable3 (talk) 14:10, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I am not certain why Cuddlyable3 is dredging up a carefully-selected bit of year-old text, but here on his talk page is the rest of the context, including several administrative warnings to Cuddlyable3 regarding inappropriate behaviour. I invite scrutiny of my own talk page, on which no such warnings exist.

That said, while I do find Cuddlyable3's behaviour perhaps overly strident and belligerent, I have no substantial beef with him. As I stated on Talk:Fuel injection, I do not intend or desire to get in any kind of a squabble with him. I also have no intention of attempting to interfere in any way with the consensus-building process at Fuel injection or anywhere else. —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 18:08, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Scheinwerfermann must be the only reader who is "not certain why" the above (in bold) example of gross personal insult has been brought to WPA. The scrutiny he now invites can usefully extend to [17] and[18]. I can not think of a better example for consideration of a "strict application of WP:RPA" than the one he has provided. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 19:48, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Since the comment from Scheinwerfermann is like nine months old, I don't see any purpose of imposing sanctions right now. There is no apparent pattern of abuse, at least not that I can see from here.

Here are more current examples:

“he seems to be what is known in Canada as a "shit disturber". It means exactly what it sounds like it means. -- Scheinwerfermann. 23:04, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

“Please note that Scheinwerfermann refuses to discuss changing his viewpoint on the matter. It is my fault, and now apparently your fault. He has made, in this long-winded reply, no real compromise, nor shown a willingness to discuss the article that started this dispute. He does not own up to his abusive editing and stalking of me across two other articles. In short, it really is “his way or no way”. 12.73.221.60 (talk) 03:21, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Signed: Raokman 00:14, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

That said, the comment in question was clearly inappropriate, so: Schwinwefermann, please remember to be civil and to refrain from personal attacks.

Similarly, Cuddlyable3, in an unrelated report today, you accuse Scheinwerfermann of wikilawyering after the discussion was already marked as resolved, and all involved parties were apparently satisfied with the outcome. Please try harder to assume good faith -- I see no compelling evidence to suggest that Scheinwerfermann was not asking a legitimate question. Was it necessary for him to escalate the question to WP:WQA? Probably not, but he didn't violate any policies, he was polite and civil throughout, and not for nothing, but there are serious problems with the American Specialty Cars article (I just removed nearly 4k of copyright violating material from that article!) so I think his nomination was very reasonable.

Are there any specific actions that you are requesting? If not, there's not much more to say than to remind each of you of WP:NPA, WP:CIVIL, and WP:AGF. --Jaysweet (talk) 20:02, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Also, looking over the Talk:Fuel injection page, I see at least as many borderline uncivil comments coming from Cuddlyable3 as from Scheinwerfermann. I can't quite point to a diff where you go way over the line, but seriously, you guys both need to chill out about that page. --Jaysweet (talk) 20:10, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

We should distinguish between the tolerance of abuse on user talk pages and article talk pages. Much can be tolerated on a user talk page because the user can set their own standards and generally delete or archive material as they see fit, and whatever they broadcast is not automatically seen by a Wikipedia user. Article talk pages differ in that they are readily accessed by ordinary Wikipedia users, their content is (usually) never reduced but instead accumulates as editors old and new work together on article content, and they broadcast by example the way wikipedians cooperate. It is here that policy demands, and a newbie SHOULD find, WP:NPA, WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL practised. I can delete an incivil remark on my own talk page with a click with no harm done whereas the persistance of an abusive posting on an article talk page causes Wikipedia collateral damage to its reputation, future discussion and willingness of users even to join our work. Consider, if you please, yourself as a newbie who reads the inappropriate post from Scheinwerfermann and ask whether you want such expressions directed at you.

I thank and commend Jaysweet for sensible and helpful response to this Wikiquette alert. I am prepared to clear up if possible any postings of my own that Jaysweet has found to be borderline uncivil. May I receive specifics on my talk page? This WPA was a request for guidance which Jaysweet has given. It would be good for all if we can mark it as resolved and move on.

Comment from me on the on-going debate about American Specialty Cars would be misplaced here. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 11:33, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

User:WalterMitty

Stale

 – Ncmvocalist (talk) 03:24, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

User:WalterMitty has resisted changes to the article on Stephen Hendry, which I have put forward and provided extensive citations for. During the discussion he has expressed considerably incivility, instructing me to 'grow up', claiming aribraily that I 'clearly do not know very much' and not engaging in proper discussion. He has also, rather than discussing or moving alterations, deleted citations that I provided. When an administrator (gwernol) intervened, he was less than civil to him also, and in a continued dicussion on Gwernol's talk page, claimed that I was 'obviously a fan trying to bias the article', which I am not and he chose to throw as an accusation with no basis. Before being banned for 24 hours for breaching 3RR, he chose to simply continue to revert edits and stopped engaging in any justification on the discussion page, despite my arguments responding to his claims and requesting he offer new explanation if he reverted again. I have been advised by gwernol to seek dispute resolution, which I have done. I'd appreciate any help as regards this behaviour. Jleadermaynard (talk) 18:04, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

The dispute as such looks resolved, as User:WalterMitty has a 6 month block.

That said, I don't think you were well-advised, as a very new user who has only worked on a couple of articles, to rapidly escalate this dispute up to a Mediation Cabal Case. It's a pretty trivial content issue where it would have been better to ask at Wikipedia:WikiProject Snooker or a Wikipedia:Requests for comment in the sport category for wider opinion (and ask for it tersely and neutrally - "Should it say X or Y?" - not as some kind of appeal for people to see it your way).

I strongly advise you not to start out with the idea that disagreements over content are best solved by quasi-legal dispute procedures. (It's a common problem - generally characterised as wikilawyering - with editors who have backgrounds in adversarial rule-based discourse, such as law or debating). It's far better to get a broad consensus than to focus on slugging it out to overpower editors who disagree.

Personally, I think User:WalterMitty was utterly wrong in conduct, but right in his view of the content issue. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 16:47, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Gordonofcartoon, irrespective of the content issue, to clarify, I'm not a very new user - this is just a new account, though I certainly wouldn't put myself up as an expert at this kind of thing as my writings and ammendements haven't been causes of controversy before. As for refering to Mediation Cabal, I did so because I was advised to by an administrator, who as I understand it acted properly given WalterMitty's behaviour to him, myself, and as regards Wikipedia rules. The point of the dispute is WalterMitty is, in my eyes, attempting to block an accurate assesment of the snooker world, a statement of the kind that has been applied without contention to other sports pages on wikipedia, to figures whose applicability to that status is if anything more contentious than Hendry's. WalterMitty's opposition to this has been without sourced backing and contrary to consensus snooker opinion I've provided evidence for. I appreciate your points but I don't see how that's not something worth raising as a problem. Jleadermaynard (talk) 22:49, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not a very new user - this is just a new account

Fair enough, but my comments still stand. To take it to Mediation looks to me overkill when the options of just getting more input hadn't been used. As does posting it near-simultaneously to Editor assistance/Requests, Wikiquette alerts and Mediation Cabal. One at a time... Gordonofcartoon (talk) 23:43, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

User:AtonX versus User:CoolKoon

User:CoolKoon (sk:User:CoolKoon) repeatedly posts attacking comments following his ban on the Slovak wikipedia due to his vandalising and aggressive behaviour. He has been banned by me for 2 hours for aggressive and threatening comments, to which he responded with more aggressive and attacking comments against me and other editors and administrators. This resulted in his repeated banning by another administrator on sk:Wikipedia. Now he posts abusive comments on my talk page on the en:Wikipedia. I have removed his first attack from my talk page, which he immediately reverted for the abusive comment to reappear. His personal attacks have been dealt with on the Slovak Wikipedia and I seek that this recurrent issue be addressed on the English-language Wikipedia as well. --AtonX (talk) 10:25, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I have never attacked AtonX on the English Wikipedia. Unfortunately the Slovak Wikipedia has many administrators which seem to have an anti-Hungarian POV and view any of their moves as a personal attack. I was treated with hostility on the Slovak Wikipedia ever since I came there despite the fact that I've been trying to discuss my difference of opinions with MarkBA in an objective and calm manner. CoolKoon (talk) 10:44, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

It will difficult to find someone who can help mediate here, since the comments in question are not in English, heh... One suggestion I might have: If the problem is restricted to comments left on AtonX's talk page, might I suggest that you two agree to just not edit each other's talk pages? --Jaysweet (talk) 18:00, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok. Agreed. CoolKoon (talk) 18:37, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

CoolKoon' ban on the Slovak wikipedia is classifying AtonX as Slovakian administrator.CoolKoon has done lots of valuable works here and on the Slovakian wiki. But I am thinking of AtonX that He is an ultra agressive vandal and his prejudiced complain is an Hungarian ethnic slander. Otherwise the Slovakian wiki is a very low standard website.Nmate (talk) 20:18, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Let's not muddy the waters. CoolKoon has agreed not to leave comments on AtonX's talk page. I am just waiting for AtonX to respond, and if he says that's okay, then this is resolved, and there is no need for further finger-pointing. --Jaysweet (talk) 20:26, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I have never edited CoolKoon's talk page, except notifying him of this alert as required by the procedure. I also do not intend to edit his talk page in the future and I wish that he himself removes his last comment from my talk page. I have never participated in any discussion with him or with Nmate on any other talk page on any other subject either, and hence I strongly object to Nmate's blatant accusations. (As for valuable work of CoolKoon on the Slovak wiki, let it speak for itself - sk:Special:Contributions/CoolKoon: 33 edits total, 3 in main namespace, 1 in talk, 3 in user, 21 user talk, 5 template, 2 moves, and two bans for threats and extremely rude personal comments). --AtonX (talk) 13:14, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

AtonX, you have control over your talkpage here. Feel free to delete anything that you want, at any time (the only exception is if an administrator places an official message of some type). If CoolKoon reverts you again, his account access will be blocked. --Elonka 17:08, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

CoolKoon posted his attacks while he was under editing restrictions from ArbCom's Digwuren case. He was put under restrictions by User:Elonka on April 18, 2008[19]. The restrictions explicitly say: "The restriction shall specify that, should the editor make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, he may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling below." CoolKoon comment was not exactly civil. He called another editor a "pussy" and two editors "stupid" (see [20] for his original comment in Slovak). Another possible breach of the Wikiquette happened on this very page, when User:Nmate called User:AtonX "an ultra agressive vandal" and his legitimate complaint here a "Hungarian ethnic slander".[21] Nmate is also under editing restrictions from ArbCom's Digwuren case[22] and he is not supposed to post uncivil comments. Tankred (talk) 15:37, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

A thread on this has also been started at User talk:Elonka/Hungarian-Slovakian experiment#CoolKoon. --Elonka 16:09, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Dear Elonka, please do remove the thread about this Wikiquette alert from your User talk:Elonka/Hungarian-Slovakian experiment page. CoolKoon has been banned by me for two hours and by another administrator for six months on Slovak wikipedia for his threats and extremely rude personal comments. Nobody ever investigated the nationality or ethnicity of the persons involved and this has nothing to do with ethnic debates whatsoever. --AtonX (talk) 18:41, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Ah, the page isn't just about ethnic disputes, it's also about "situations of interest to both Hungarians and Slovakians". So it has elements of being a Cooperation Board or WikiProject. And you are very welcome to join. It would be very useful to have another Slovak viewpoint, especially of someone who's an admin at SK. :) --Elonka 01:34, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

As I've mentioned before, many people on the Slovak Wikipedia (including some administrators) openly agree with the views of the extremist far-right party SNS and it's leader Jan Slota's "doctrine" who famously said "Hungarians are a tumour on the body of the Slovak nation, which must be removed without delay." (See this: [23] although my translation is more accurate. The original quote in Slovak: [24]). Had I known this before going to the Slovak Wikipedia I would never set my "feet" there. It was a mistake I've utterly regretted. I won't write to the talk page of AtonX or anybody else who is in connection with him anymore. I want to end this for now and forever. Period. CoolKoon (talk) 19:31, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

If the two editors will voluntarily stay out of each others' way, I think we should allow User:CoolKoon to continue editing here. Knowing that someone has been blocked on sk.wiki is not the same as knowing the grounds for the block or being able to follow discussion threads (in Slovak) that led to the block. I hope they will avoid addressing remarks to each other in Slovak on enwiki, to be sure that there are no insults we can't understand. I agree that CoolKoon may be blocked if he addresses AtonX in any way. If CoolKoon finds himself needing to edit an article that AtonX has visited, it would be helpful if he would lave a note at User talk:Elonka/Hungarian-Slovakian experiment so that any negative interaction can be avoided. EdJohnston (talk) 21:25, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I repeat: Firstly—This is not, and it has never been, a debate on article content. I have never had any content dispute, not even any content debate with CoolKoon. Secondly—This is not an ethnic conflict; the nationality or ethnicity of anybody involved is irrelevant and has never been investigated, brought forward or even mentioned by me or any other admin at the Slovak wikipedia. This is purely an attempt to redress his repeated, extremely rude personal attacks which appeared on my talk page. CoolKoon's agreement not to edit my talk page is sufficient for me and for my side I consider this closed. Whether he by his rude comment on my page (as translated above) and Nmate by his comment against me on this page, violated their restrictions, that I leave for the admins to judge. --AtonX (talk) 23:34, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't go so far as demanding that CoolKoon needs to avoid all contact with AtonX. For example, if he were to post a conciliatory message or apology, that would be fine. But I do agree that he needs to cease any incivility. And I would also like everyone to focus on using English-language on the English Wikipedia. If someone's speaking in another language just to mask some rudeness, that's still a violation of WP:CIVIL. --Elonka 01:34, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Yuz Asaf

I posted worries about this page at fringe theories noticeboard. User:Dougweller came to help. Now a newly-created account User:NewYork10021 is throwing accusations at him. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:28, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Please provide links of where he has made such accusations. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:45, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

User: Daimerej

Not a Wikiquette issue, referred elsewhere

 – to Wikipedia:Suspected_sock_puppets. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:55, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

User:Daimerej appears to be User:Ewenss, who was banned for sock puppetry (he basically conceded it in the talk page of Trinity United Church of Christ. He is back again, and appears to be editing under that name and 74.233.86.145, as well as possibly 64.66.192.62. They're making identical edits, giving identical reasons. He has also behaved uncivilly on the AfD page of Joshua Packwood‎. Trilemma (talk) 22:37, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Any concerns you have about sockpuppetry should be voiced at Wikipedia:Suspected_sock_puppets, or to the administrator's noticeboard. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:50, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Personal Attacks, lack of Good Faith

User:GoatDoomOcculta recently made an edit to an article's talk page [25] in which he made a thinly veiled accusation towards me editing with a conflict of interest (accusing me of being Tim Buckley, the author of the website the article pertains to). Seeing he was a new editor, I responded to his points, as well as asking him politely to refrain from making WP:AGF personal attacks against me both on the article talk page [26] and on the user's personal talk page [27]. GoatDoomOcculta then responded by not only making a more blatant, direct and clearly intentional personal attack against me on his talk page [28] (which I was ready to simply ignore), but also copy/pasting that attack to the article's talk page [29]. These accusations are unfounded, and I don't appreciate his attempts to damage my credibility as an editor.

(I had posted this on ANI due to the repeated nature [30] of these accusations (albeit from different users), and the vandalism I've had to endure as a result, however after further consideration, perhaps WQA is a better place to start)--Thrindel (talk) 22:43, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

User:MegX

This user reverted several edits I made to Led Zeppelin articles on the basis of "vandalism." As a glance at the edits in question will reveal, this charge was patently false. I reverted her edits, encouraging her to discuss the issue on each article's talk page before deleting my edits. Then I sent her this message:

Wikipedia is a community that depends crucially on effective communication between editors. My edits were in good-faith and not vandalism; your claim of "vandalism" was a means of evading communication as to what you found objectionable about my edits. If you believe my edits were inaccurate or unsourced (although most claims in those articles about various Led Zeppelin songs sounding like earlier-recorded songs are not sourced, and logically so as one does not need an expert to determine that two songs sound similar), please start a discussion on the talk page as per wikipedia guidelines instead of inaccurately claiming vandalism.

Allon Fambrizzi (talk) 21:39, 22 May 2008 (UTC)Allon Fambrizzi

In response, she sent me the following message:

"although most claims in those articles about various Led Zeppelin songs sounding like earlier-recorded songs are not sourced, and logically so as one does not need an expert to determine that two songs sound similar" That is a patently false statement. Courts of law use musicologists to determine if a song sounds similar in structure to another song. Neither Traffic or Jake Holmes has taken the issue to court, therefore it is not fact. Wikipedia deals with facts not opinions. I have no intention on having a discussion with you because I believe by your edit history to be a sockpuppet. Don't deny it. MegX (talk) 00:55, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

What is important to note is that she made another groundless claim, that I was a sockpuppet, after her earlier lie that my edits were "vandalism" was exposed (again, this is all evident in the talkpages of the various articles.

It is appalling to me that respected editors within this community have become so uncivil and impolite. At no point did MegX assume my edits were in good-faith; rather, she disagreed with a claim I didn't even make in my edits (that these similarities in Led Zeppelin songs were legally actionable) and made personal attacks against me.

Allon Fambrizzi (talk) 08:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC)Allon Fambrizzi

[is not a publisher of original thought] and [is not a soapbox]. Hearsay and opinion is not fact. You are passing off opinion as fact. At no point has your claims of plagiarism been tested in a court of law. Issues of copyright are determined in courts of law, not pages of an encyclopaedia. Please desist from passing of opinion as fact. MegX (talk) 02:37, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

MegX is correct here. Injecting unverifiable original research and opinion is the opposite of what Wikipedia is based on. In the case of Led Zeppelin, if there is some sort of documented court settlement regarding songwriting then that can be introduced as long as the proper references are in place. If there is no court settlement and no supoorting documentation then the content is personal pov and has no place on Wikipedia. Anger22 (Talk 2 22) 03:02, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Requiring a documented court settlement is very strict. There are published reviews of popular music which can be sourced, if found. I have not listened to the songs concerned; has anyone made an accusation of plagiarism? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 15:15, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

No. it's the original editor's personal pov. Even their added text is very "8th grade book report" style in trying to push their opinion into several articles without any supporting/verifiable/reliable sources. Led Zeppelin have a small number of court settlements connected to certain recorded tracks. And these are all documented in the appropriate Wikipedia articles with references. Most of the cases stem from lyrical similarities and not music. All of these other claims are just poorly written original research based on editor POV. And these contributions have been removed, and rightly so, by several editors trying to block any POV/OR from these articles.

I agree with the positions of User:Anger22 and User:MegX. Those songs that have already been covered in decades-old out-of-court settlements have already been well documented elsewhere. That's not in dispute here. What editor User:Allon Fambrizzi was doing was adding personal opinion/original research on other songs that have never been subject to a court case, so of course there would be no court documents on these. I have accessed online peer reviewed journals on popular music at our university the last hour and have not found any claims that back up some of the additions made by User:Allon Fambrizzi. HelenWatt (talk) 23:19, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I would just point out that substantive disagreement with edits does not justify MegX's earlier claims that I am a "sockpuppet" engaged in "vandalism." I did attempt to source these edits. And most of these edits were simply elaborating on thoughts that were already in the article. MegX was wrong to engage in unsubstantiated personal attacks, and should be reprimanded for doing that. Allon Fambrizzi (talk) 02:08, 25 May 2008 (UTC)Allon Fambrizzi

I can't argue with MegX's bizarre claims that I am utilizing "hearsay" and am not citing legal opinions (these standards obviously have never been applied to Wikipedia articles in the past!). I still maintain my original position that these edits improved the articles. I would encourage people to listen to the songs I have mentioned in the articles; this was not original research but rather, in most cases, elaborations on statements elsewhere in the articles. The unfortunate thing is that I likely would have to start editing under a different name if I wished to contribute to Wikipedia in the future as MegX has been blanket-reverting my edits on the basis of the fact that this screen name made the edits, without first establishing a community consensus on the talk pages of the respective articles. MegX has not gone through the proper procedures for settling disagreement on Wikipedia; the fact that she apparently has unlimited time to blanket-revert edits she doesn't like apparently wins out over reasoned discussion. Allon Fambrizzi (talk) 02:16, 25 May 2008 (UTC)Allon Fambrizzi

I would further encourage people to read the following post I made on MegX's talk page, which she has now deleted (it is the last one): [31]. Allon Fambrizzi (talk) 02:19, 25 May 2008 (UTC)Allon Fambrizzi

MegX, please keep the following in mind in the future. If you feel that an individual is engaging in vandalism repeatedly (deliberate attempts to compromise the integrity of Wikipedia), then please make your concerns known at Wikipedia:Administrator_intervention_against_vandalism. Similarly, if you feel that an individual is engaging in Sock-puppetry, then as the policy states, please make your concerns known at Wikipedia:Suspected_sock_puppets. Remember, it is unacceptable for an editor to continually accuse another of egregious misbehavior in an attempt to besmirch their reputation. Concerns should be brought up in the appropriate forums. We're here to deal with impolite or difficult communications - not content issues. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:34, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

User:OhanaUnited uncivility

In this post User:OhanaUnited , who is administrator on Wikipedia writes about me "The image he attempted to replace with the already-featured is his own creation. Although there's no rule against being the nominator of your own image, but my gut feeling tells me he's trying to discredit someone else's picture so that his can showcase his image here. Also, at that time, his reason for demotion is "because I like this image better." These statements are false to say the least. I possibly could not try to discredit someone else's picture because both pictures in question were taken by me and I believe I have the right of the creator of the images like one on my own pictures better than the other of my own pictures. Let's say that User:OhanaUnited has missed the point. Anybody could be mistaken. Well user:catch-22 pointed his mistake out to User:OhanaUnited , but User:OhanaUnited has never bothered to remove his false accusations and never responded to user:catch-22. At that point I assume that comments made by User:OhanaUnited were made in a bad faith. I'd also like to point out that administrator OhanaUnited has deleted my polite message from his talk page with the edit summary: cleaning out some garbage, which IMO is more than uncivil and more than impolite. IMO administrator OhanaUnited should remove his false accusations from this post, should be issued a warning about his uncivilty and should be considered for de-adminship. BTW I would have notified OhanaUnited about me filing this alert, but I am afraid I cannot do it because he told me that he that his "gut feeling" told him he should "ignore me from now on".He even protected his talk page for few days. It seems to me that OhanaUnited relies on his "gut feeling" instead of relaing on the common sense. Thank you.--Mbz1 (talk) 17:59, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't see anything incivil or impolite here, and certainly nothing to suggest that his adminship is in question. He's within his rights to remove comments from his talk page, so you shouldn't be upset by that. It was polite of him to state that he has an intention of ignoring you, and gave a reason, rather than ignoring you entirely. While you may disagree, it's his choice. I'm not clear about the initial dispute concerning some image, so I won't comment on that. Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:12, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

• Thank you for your respond, Ncmvocalist. I'm afraid it was not helpful at all and I'm afraid you are not clear in anything from my initial post. Would you agree, if I say that removing message with edit summary cleaning out some garbage does not consider to be civil or/and polite? Would you agree, if I say that admin, who's protecting his own talk page uses his admin rights with the wrong purpose? Would you agree that, if he falsely blamed me in "trying to discredit someone else's picture" while talking about my own picture should at least remove his false statement from post? I also doubt that an admin, who could say he would ignore a user with absolutely no reason could be a good admin. Oh and btw IMO calling my post noise does not consider to be civil and polite either. May I please ask you,Ncmvocalist, if you are sure you are in the right place? --Mbz1 (talk) 14:46, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

User:Otolemur crassicaudatus

Resolved

 – Among themselves. Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:27, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Recently, this user seems to have breached AGF/CIV/NPA a few times. Here he accused me of bad faith in an AfD that garnered a fair amount of support. Here he attacked my beliefs rather needlessly. And here, just today, he both accused me of bad faith (where none was present) and pointed to the fact that I'm a monarchist, which has nothing to do with the AfD in question, and even if it did, WP:NPA prohibits "using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views".

Additionally, also today, he made these remarks, accusing another established user who made an AfD nomination that drew a range of reactions of a "Bad faith nom by pro-America POV pushers... Wikipedia is not the place for pro-America misinformation mongering". While the user is entitled to his beliefs, such remarks are quite corrosive in their effect. Biruitorul ^Talk 05:59, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

In this AfD, calling the nom "bad faith" was a mistake. My bad. I have changed the wording and strikethough the monarchist comment. [32], [33]. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 06:03, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate that. I don't make frivolous nominations either, but thank you for your apology. Biruitorul ^Talk 06:23, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Fringe theory, soap box, forum, incivility

Resolved

 – -warned editor Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:05, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I was redirected here from the fringe theory notice board after posting a complaint about a certain editer who has broke about half a dozen policies not to mention the fact that he has some rather backward views. To get the full story as i have documented it please follow this link. I would appreciate your help on this, he has caused at least one editer I know well a lot of bother. Realist² (Come Speak To Me) 19:03, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Please provide links or diffs to the incivility. Ncmvocalist (talk) 03:33, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Not sure if you meant this or not, but "backward views" aren't a problem, as long as the editor doesn't introduce poorly referenced, POV material in the article space or use the talk pages as a soapbox to discuss things unrelated to improving the article. Whether or not the person's views are "backward" is, by itself, irrelevant. -kotra (talk) 04:48, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Here the editer "CadenS" is promoting a fringe theory on talk pages that is actually quite offensive. He calls it the "Homosexual Agenda", which is a right wing way of saying "gays are plotting against the world". I have listed just ten examples below, there are many many more edits like this by the user. He called one user who is a member of the LGBT community "Heterophobic" for not agreeing with him. I know that the editer was very offended by the comment. Now being conservative and christain is fine with me, but this is going too far, i see these unhealthy ideas spouted on Conservapedia and honestly its dangerous.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 - im guessing "this" means homosexuality? 11 - and again, Caden has found another example of the "Homosexual Agenda", running wild in wikipedia

Sorry i couldnt get back to you sooner, my internet connection went down. Realist² (Come Speak To Me) 15:14, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Caden has continued the dispute here. Accusing bookkeeper of starting a hate campaign against him. Realist² (Come Speak To Me) 16:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Infact, this isnt a campaign against Caden, oh no, much worse. Its a campaign against heterosexuality seen here. Realist² (Come Speak To Me) 16:24, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Please stop accusing me of "promoting a fringe theory", or of "soap boxing", or of being "anti gay", or of "prejudice" or all the other negative things you are accusing me of. I am doing no such thing. I never said "gays are plotting against the world", so please do not put words into my mouth. Please stop this nonsense of yours. I find what you are doing highly offensive and consider it a personal attack towards me. CadenS (talk) 21:13, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

• I've given him a warning and explained what was wrong with his conduct. If it continues, or he does not agree to comply with policy, let me know. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:05, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
  • I will, prejudice doesnt die quickly so i dont think it will be long before i return, sadly. --Realist² (Come Speak To Me) 17:11, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Please stop. Why are you doing this to me? Do you hate me that much? You don't even know me and we have never spoken before. Please stop making these false accusations about me. I do not appreciate it. Please leave me be in peace. CadenS (talk) 22:55, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I think these comments made by an administrater best sum up how tired we are with your behaviour. Realist² (Come Speak To Me) 00:01, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Those comments were not appropriate. I found them personally offensive. As far as that religion bit, I have no idea where he's getting that from. Could you please leave me alone and please stop wiki-stalking me from one talk page to another. I don't understand what you are trying to do here. But I don't like it. CadenS (talk) 01:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Personal attacks and deletion of talk page postings

Thanks to whichever volunteers handle issues at this page, I hope you find your work rewarding.

I've been tolerating provocative rudeness by User:Ilkali at Talk:Gender of God for some time now. Mainly I've ignored it, and stuck to answering nit-picking challenges and Wikilawyering. Eventually, I worked out it was trolling of some kind and I shouldn't feed it. I gave notice of withdrawing from discussion and explained why.

Now, however, this user is actually insisting on removing a reply I have given as part of a very long standing discussion to another user, who is currently absent. I have given warnings and finally a 3RR warning. Personally, I'd rather the user just chooses to be more civil, and allow things that irk him to stand; but how can I continue interacting with another long standing editor on this page, if a third party deletes my replies? Or am I to understand I can edit talk pages as well as articles and delete comments I think are inappropriate?

It seems to me we need to be even more generous in what we allow in talk pages than we do in articles. Where would we be if people had the right to delete talk page posts they disagreed with? Does this user have the right to remove my comment here?

Sorry to trouble you, but I've spent a long time talking an important issue through with User:Andowney and we actually seem to be getting to the end of it at last. But now Ilkali has deleted my reply. :( Alastair Haines (talk) 15:50, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Unless I am missing something, you and perhaps User:Andyowney are misusing the talk page: [[WP:TALK}} "Talk pages are for discussing the article, not for general conversation about the article's subject (much less other subjects). Keep discussions on the topic of how to improve the associated article. Irrelevant discussions are subject to removal." You've written " Asking questions and challenging human doctrines derived from revelation, not revelation themselves, is a great way to push oneself to depending more heavily on scripture, prayer, obedience and love. To depend on scripture is to depend on God (if we are correct to believe God is there and that he has spoken). Although I believe there is only one truth, and although I believe scripture informs us of much regarding gender, I think the processes are as important as the results. As you say, now it is "through a glass darkly" then it will be "face to face".But what do we say at Wiki? Christian view: "through a glass darkly" (Paul as understood by AH and AD)? I think here we must simply place the dark understanding of the scholars to this point, and leave the question quickly. If people want to know more, they should go to church and join the collective struggle to wrestle for as much grace of revelation as we can find as we turn to God's word together." That looks more like a sermon than using it as "a forum to discuss how the different points of view obtained from secondary sources should be included in the article". If I were active on that page, I'd probably remove that myself.--Doug Weller (talk) 18:25, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

You are overlooking the point. I say: But what do we say at Wiki?. You say: That looks more like a sermon. What does? The second half of the last sentence. Were you to remove on such grounds, and then repeat that after objection. I would report you for uncivil and biased editing. Thanks for taking the trouble to follow the links, and for reading the disputed comment. If the last sentence is the only objection, I will count your voice as agreeing with retaining the post. Cheers. Alastair Haines (talk) 23:06, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

HELP!!!!! user:Toobills and user:RC&RB incivility, libel and harassment

Both have continually been uncivil, have posted libel/defamation of others (and myself) on Talk:Sōsuishi-ryū. Please look in the Revision history of Talk:Sōsuishi-ryū. Here:diff1; Here: diff2; Here:diff3 Here:diff4; Here: diff5 Here: diff6 And there are a few more that I am leaving out. I've tried to be as civil as possible, to no avail. This has led to continued insults and threats and it seems to be escalating. This has continued from e-mails sent to me personally at a prior date, threatening me from post user:Toobills and user:RC&RB stating that that any "posts I make at Wikipedia have to be approved by user:Toobills first". Now on here at Wikipedia, they are attempting to follow through with harassment, namecalling and general incivility. I fear it will turn into vandalism.

Mekugi (talk) 18:05, 26 May 2008 (UTC)