Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement

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See also: Logged AE sanctions

Important information

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Please use this page only to:

request administrative action against editors violating a remedy (not merely a principle) or an injunction in an Arbitration Committee decision, or a contentious topic restriction imposed by an administrator,
request contentious topic restrictions against previously alerted editors who engage in misconduct in a topic area designated as a contentious topic,
request page restrictions (e.g. revert restrictions) on pages that are being disrupted in topic areas designated as contentious topics, or
appeal arbitration enforcement actions (including contentious topic restrictions) to uninvolved administrators.

For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard.

Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.

To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.

Appeals and administrator modifications of contentious topics restrictions

The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications of contentious topic restrictions state the following:

All contentious topic restrictions (and logged warnings) may be appealed. Only the restricted editor may appeal an editor restriction. Any editor may appeal a page restriction.

The appeal process has three possible stages. An editor appealing a restriction may:

ask the administrator who first made the contentious topic restrictions (the "enforcing administrator") to reconsider their original decision;
request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN"); and
submit a request for amendment ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email.

Appeals submitted at AE or AN must be submitted using the applicable template.

A rough consensus of administrators at AE or editors at AN may specify a period of up to one year during which no appeals (other than an appeal to ARCA) may be submitted.

Changing or revoking a contentious topic restriction

An administrator may only modify or revoke a contentious topic restriction if a formal appeal is successful or if one of the following exceptions applies:

The administrator who originally imposed the contentious topic restriction (the "enforcing administrator") affirmatively consents to the change,^[a] or is no longer an administrator;^[b] or
The contentious topic restriction was imposed (or last renewed) more than a year ago and:
- the restriction was imposed by a single administrator, or
- the restriction was an indefinite block.

A formal appeal is successful only if one of the following agrees with revoking or changing the contentious topic restriction:

a clear consensus of uninvolved administrators at AE,
a clear consensus of uninvolved editors at AN,
a majority of the Arbitration Committee, acting through a motion at ARCA.

Any administrator who revokes or changes a contentious topic restriction out of process (i.e. without the above conditions being met) may, at the discretion of the Arbitration Committee, be desysopped.

Standard of review
On community review

Uninvolved administrators at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") and uninvolved editors at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN") should revoke or modify a contentious topic restriction on appeal if:

the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action was not reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption when first imposed, or
the action is no longer reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption.

On Arbitration Committee review

Arbitrators hearing an appeal at a request for amendment ("ARCA") will generally overturn a contentious topic restriction only if:

the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action represents an unreasonable exercise of administrative enforcement discretion, or
compelling circumstances warrant the full Committee's action.

^ The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.
^ This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

Appeals and administrator modifications of non-contentious topics sanctions

The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications and appeals state:

Appeals by sanctioned editors

Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction. Requests for modification of page restrictions may be made by any editor. The process has three possible stages (see "Important notes" below). The editor may:

ask the enforcing administrator to reconsider their original decision;
request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators’ noticeboard ("AN"); and
submit a request for amendment at the amendment requests page ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email through Special:EmailUser/Arbitration Committee (or, if email access is revoked, to arbcom-enwikimedia.org).

Modifications by administrators

No administrator may modify or remove a sanction placed by another administrator without:

the explicit prior affirmative consent of the enforcing administrator; or
prior affirmative agreement for the modification at (a) AE or (b) AN or (c) ARCA (see "Important notes" below).

Administrators modifying sanctions out of process may at the discretion of the committee be desysopped.

Nothing in this section prevents an administrator from replacing an existing sanction issued by another administrator with a new sanction if fresh misconduct has taken place after the existing sanction was applied.

Administrators are free to modify sanctions placed by former administrators – that is, editors who do not have the administrator permission enabled (due to a temporary or permanent relinquishment or desysop) – without regard to the requirements of this section. If an administrator modifies a sanction placed by a former administrator, the administrator who made the modification becomes the "enforcing administrator". If a former administrator regains the tools, the provisions of this section again apply to their unmodified enforcement actions.

Important notes:

For a request to succeed, either

(i) the clear and substantial consensus of (a) uninvolved administrators at AE or (b) uninvolved editors at AN or

(ii) a passing motion of arbitrators at ARCA

is required. If consensus at AE or AN is unclear, the status quo prevails.

While asking the enforcing administrator and seeking reviews at AN or AE are not mandatory prior to seeking a decision from the committee, once the committee has reviewed a request, further substantive review at any forum is barred. The sole exception is editors under an active sanction who may still request an easing or removal of the sanction on the grounds that said sanction is no longer needed, but such requests may only be made once every six months, or whatever longer period the committee may specify.
These provisions apply only to contentious topic restrictions placed by administrators and to blocks placed by administrators to enforce arbitration case decisions. They do not apply to sanctions directly authorized by the committee, and enacted either by arbitrators or by arbitration clerks, or to special functionary blocks of whatever nature.
All actions designated as arbitration enforcement actions, including those alleged to be out of process or against existing policy, must first be appealed following arbitration enforcement procedures to establish if such enforcement is inappropriate before the action may be reversed or formally discussed at another venue.

Information for administrators processing requests

Thank you for participating in this area. AE works best if there are a variety of admins bringing their expertise to each case. There is no expectation to comment on every case, and the Arbitration Committee (ArbCom) thanks all admins for whatever time they can give.

A couple of reminders:

Before commenting, please familiarise yourself with the referenced ArbCom case. Please also read all the evidence (including diffs) presented in the AE request.
When a request widens to include editors beyond the initial request, these editors must be notified and the notifications recorded in the same way as for the initial editor against whom sanctions were requested. Where some part of the outcome is clear, a partial close may be implemented and noted as "Result concerning X".
Enforcement measures in arbitration cases should be construed liberally to protect Wikipedia and keep it running efficiently. Some of the behaviour described in an enforcement request might not be restricted by ArbCom. However, it may violate other Wikipedia policies and guidelines; you may use administrative discretion to resolve it.
More than one side in a dispute may have ArbCom conduct rulings applicable to them. Please ensure these are investigated.

Closing a thread:

Once an issue is resolved, enclose it between {{hat}} and {{hab}} tags. A bot should archive it in 7 days.
Please consider referring the case to ARCA if the outcome is a recommendation to do so or the issue regards administrator conduct.
You can use the templates {{uw-aeblock}} (for blocks) or {{AE sanction}} (for other contentious topic restrictions) to give notice of sanctions on user talk pages.
Please log sanctions in the Arbitration enforcement log.

Thanks again for helping. If you have any questions, please post on the talk page.

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GreatGreen

GreatGreen is topic banned from Longevity broadly construed. Spartaz ^Humbug! 10:07, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning GreatGreen

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Ricky81682 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 21:54, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: GreatGreen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Longevity#Motion:_Longevity_.28August_2015.29 :

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

November 23, 2015 Restoring the list of all "pending" and "unverified" GRG claims by stating "No place vor vandalism". The GRG has its own definition of "verified" for nearly a decade, there was a distinction here between what the GRG "verified" and what the GRG didn't, while completely ignoring all other sourcing policies we follow. Thus the page would be colored blue or red based entirely on a single source's definition.
November 23th discussion on talk page After notifying the editor, I began a discussion on the talk page. The editor has no interest in responding about the RSN discussion or other policies, instead arguing that the coloring should be kept because "chance that they will become verified is characterized by a quiet long term" (again, that's only based on the GRG's definition, and ignores all other policies here).
December 12, 2015 Again, restoring separate tables for "verified" claims and "unverified" claims along with OR tables of "Oldest living German person by state" and "Oldest German person by state of birth" (no source directly states that those people are the oldest person or living person by those states)
December 18, 2015 Further talk page arguing for the restoration of those tables because "The article is NOT mentioned Verified SC" and that we are destroying years of work, finally arguing that if we were to remove those tables, then all biographies should be re-evaluated.
More on December 18th. Again, arguing "that GRG does science and it is necessary to know about cases that are not verified but should be in future..." to again have claims that the GRG does not support listed here (while distinguishing them) so that our tables parrot the GRG's pending and verified tables without regard to our general sourcing policies.
December 23, 2015 Restoring the headings saying that these are "verified" claims
December 23, 2015 Again.
December 23th on talk page "And it doesn't matter what the other articles says because these are all "rules" you "developed", but the problem is some of your so called rules are contradictorying. You were active enough to change all article so do it again for the other ones" implying that he will oppose it because he's active there on the German page.
January 1, 2016 Continuing arguing about "undermining" the list and that there's no need to look for 'reliable' sources since "that isn't the fact, because to give a full research you have to mention at minimum these SC because being 110 years and older doesn't depend on a persons verification, it is a question of its real age. Just why these people are "ignored" by institutions like GRG or one document is missing for a full verification doesn't claim these cases are wrong." and that "The only point is (and that's where I understand you) to point out validated cases. E.g. unverified cases could be colored grey" again showing a GRG focus rather than the project.
January 9, 2016 Adding von Staphni information (without attribution) after Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Irmgard von Stephani was closed with three comments all voting delete not merge like some of those have gone.
January 12, 2016 Restoring von Staphni because "sense of deleting was to prevent a single article as famous people like deserve. The article has been also corrected" (no idea what has been "corrected" here nor why not take it to DRV or otherwise).
January 13, 2016 Restored again, arguing for "a discussion" and that "Really, when you so called "guardians of AFD" start to read articles and click the sources." Again, note that he did not respond at all to the deletion discussion itself while editing here during that time period.
January 13, 2016 on the talk page. When responding to a question about how to order the names, responds with attacks and then adds a section arguing about "the 'rules' of AFD getting von Staphni deleted.

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Editor's edits to Talk:List of German supercentenarians include a notice at the top regarding discretionary sanctions.
Editor was also specifically separated notified here

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

This is another longevity-based ARE request. This editor here is focused solely on List of German supercentenarians going back to November 2013. English may not be the editor's first language but that's not the issue here. As an aside, I've also notified the editor about the non-compliant signature (lacking an link to the user or talk page) ~~but that hasn't been corrected either~~. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:03, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Since the filing of this request, GreatGreen has continued arguing at the German talk page demanding that all pages linked to an article also be notified about its deletion which someone else took and was resounded rejected at DRV. Then it's another round of "The reasons for deletion were not nutritious and well-thought." (again, by someone who has never participated in an AFD and seemingly will never actual participate in these). Finally attacks Legacypac for "Another useless answer". Could someone close that discussion and inform GreatGreen that that talk page is not DRV and direct the editor there. We shouldn't have to be arguing this on an irrelevant page there. Also, Spartaz this is one-sided because everything from the ARBCOM case a decade ago until now has been one-sided, it wasn't a dispute with two equally warring sides. It was always a dispute of one group with a particular view and the rest of the encyclopedia against them. I asked to reinstate discretionary sanctions precisely because we kept having to go to ANI to respond to demands by them to topic ban us from their nonsense and it would then boomerang in them being topic banned (with sock puppetry then following). -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:02, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If you talking about "we" you think of yourself and your aims of owning the power about the topic. You want me to get angry by you provocations but you won't. You want be to be banned by any sentence that could assume this.

So you wrote many times about the fact I would work on my personal pet project but thinking about the way you treat members and the list/articles show you do not accept anything pro. You just accept all the things against SC topic. Maybe you should overcome the fact that you are not the top of all editors opinion. You are looking for help by any small argument without getting into a discussion that is based on objectives. You are ignoring the thing, worrying about the way I argue. It might be mixed because you are leaping from on to another point because you don't want to give any response to my questions and arguments.GreatGreen (talk) 08:51, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Diff

Discussion concerning GreatGreen

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by GreatGreen

This is discusting. Your behaviour shows you want to kick out everyone writing on this articles. You did it with so many others and they gave up on the topic because you are as self-called "guardian" the only and best one to know what to involve and what not. I will write later what my opinion of this all is and why it is a scandal somebody like you opens such themes. That is everything I have to write here for now.GreatGreen 17:45, 14 January 2016 (UTC) I just want to give keywords for the next paragraphs: 1. Firstly what harresment to underline I am not an English native. Sorry for that! Really but I want to underline too so many arguments Ricky gave by German articles are caused because it seems to be he/she is not able to read them - a translator doesn't work that good. 2. Where are discussions? I only see my arguments get ignored over and over. And because of ignorance this guy started the topic ban. The same way was treated Waenceslaus and Ollie, two people working really good on the topic and these writes are correspondents of the GRG so I am really confused how somebody having no real idea of the topic can crash down those who are working on this topic for many years in a really good way. 3. If you want to wish than check my arguments. These are all arguments that are objective based on sources. Reading the rules on sources by wiki I didn't find reasons to claim they would not be reliable. 4. Ricky complained many times about I would try to change only the German list. And I mentioned it many times: I want to give an example how arguments could become an article for all. It is the easiest for me to look for information in this topic because I am German native. 5. Why is somebody involved like Legacypac anymore who's arguments were really stupid like German emigrants would not be German, people to be born in German Empire would not be German. That shows these people are looking for any fly in the ointmen to say this and this would be wrong - but what isn't. 6. Wiki rules itself get ignored by those one's who claim I would ignore (this also involves all the other cases) 7. The point of "verification" have the be named everywhere. Ricky gives the opinion that only verified SCs could have been 110. This is wrong. It is right that GRG-verified cases are true, BUT it doesn't mean unverified cases are wrong and should be ignored. At minium this has to be involved in any article and list, but Ricky does not want to. 8. A longer time ago it was mentioned the GRG and the articles in wikipedia would be commercial. This is not true, it is an institution working scientifical and to a company selling products or anything. The trappy thing is that the "haters" claimed this a few times. GreatGreen (talk) 11:12, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I wish for an agreement but Ricky and his little helpers (I could also imagine he using different accounts) shows he is the one who don't want to wish. If he would be interested in an agreement he would start too. But what he did is to start a topic ban what makes me think of manipulation again. And it is also wrong I only work on the article of German Supercentenarians. This is wrong. He is looking for arguments to nounce me a pigheaded fellow, but I am not. His agreement would be only that I accept everything and that's it.GreatGreen (talk) 11:12, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes you see how Ricky is mixing the problems... it was not my intension to give the problem of signature. I just didn't know about this and with help I corrected. GreatGreen (talk) 11:12, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by 107.72.99.57 (talk · contribs)

Please use your account to post
Another attempt at censorship by Ricky here. He's been defeated on the last one so the lesson here is let the scientific consensus win not the rabid deletionists who don't care to understand the science of longevity tracking. -- 107.72.99.57 (talk · contribs) 18:59, January 14, 2016 .

Statement by 183.182.115.81 (talk · contribs)

Only edit by this IP
I agree with everything GreatGreen explained and I hope he will be able to improve German supercentenarians pages in future with the same good quality as well as he did in the past. Thank you so much, GreatGreen. --183.182.115.81 (talk) 14:26, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement from The Blade of the Northern Lights

I want to echo what Ricky says above. The IPs above are a great demonstration of how toxic this whole area has become and why disruption in this topic needs swift topic bans. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 16:39, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning GreatGreen

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I'm seeing battleground mentality, refusal to edit according to our inclusion standard/consensus of an AFD and edit warring. While I'm a bit concerned that one side of the dispute seems to be getting the brunt of the enforcement action, this seems a pretty clear issue here and I'd be minded to impose a topic ban should there be further support for this outcome. Spartaz ^Humbug! 22:20, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I asked GreatGreen if they would accept the advice and change their ways. Please check their talk page and see how they respond. Resolution by agreement is better than by sanction. But if there's no agreement, I think a sanction is inevitable. Jehochman ^Talk 23:00, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Their response only seems to cover the problems with their signature. Spartaz ^Humbug! 05:41, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  - There seems no progress on a non enforced outcome. Therefore moving to a topic ban Spartaz ^Humbug! 10:07, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Dicklyon and Darkfrog24

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Dicklyon and Darkfrog24

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: RGloucester (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 18:40, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Users against whom enforcement is requested

Dicklyon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
Darkfrog24 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Article titles and capitalisation#Discretionary sanctions :

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Too many diffs to count. Simply look at the edit history of Wikipedia:WikiProject Manual of Style/External support. Edit-warring has been going on between these two users for more than a week, filling that edit history with nothing but reverts. Also see Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Register, where a similar situation has arisen.

See also this user page discussion on Darkfrog24's talk page and this user page discussion on Dicklyon's talk page. The dispute has clearly been personalised, with accusations of "lying" going back and forth.

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Standard DS notice received by Dicklyon (March 2015)
Standard DS notice received by Darkfrog24 (September 2015)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Back on 18 December, a user requested clarification on the MoS talk page about the quotation style used by Wikipedia. This discussion started out collegial, but has blown up into a protracted dispute between two users across many pages. Darkfrog24 and Dicklyon have been edit-warring constantly on the two MoS subpages linked above for more than a week, after discussion at the main page resulted in a stalemate. I haven't even bothered to provide diffs, because the edit history of those two pages consist only of reverts made by either user. WP:3RR has long since passed. Both users are aware of the MoS DS, and this type of behaviour should not be allowed to continue. I would suggest that some action is taken against both parties to the dispute, as other editors who participated in the civil discussion at WT:MOS had no trouble avoiding this type of edit-warring, which is exactly what the MoS case remedies (see remedy 1.2) were meant to stop. Both parties are veterans of MoS disputes. How long does this type of thing have to go on in little watched pages before someone does something about it? RGloucester — ☎ 18:40, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Addendum – I strongly reject any accusations of being a "provocateur". I was involved in the discussion at the MoS talk page before Mr Lyon was even capable of commenting there, and had been following it as such. Whilst I ceased my participation as I saw that the discussion was becoming fertile ground for conflict, I also saw this continued edit-warring and pointless bickering occurring across multiple pages, with no one to stop it. The two editors in question here are both aware of remedy 1.2, which I mentioned above, which establishes a process whereby changes should occur after consensus is gained on the talk page, not by a process of edits and reversion. I don't understand how I can be at fault for bringing to light behaviour that is directly contrary to the remedies established in the arbitration case. If no one cares about this disruption in little known pages in the project space, fine. That doesn't mean that editors should be able to get away with disruptive behaviour of this sort, which is likely to spill back into more well-known pages eventually. As far as my personal reading on the matter, I tend to agree with SmC and Mr Lyon on the topic matter of this dispute. That doesn't excuse the nature of what is going on, here, again. If no administrative action is taken here, this dispute will continue repeat itself. This is not the first time it has blown up. There are cycles, and until someone stops that cycle, this disruption will continue. This has been the problem with AE for as long as I've been familiar with it. Parties in a dispute, on whatever side, are well aware of the nature of the "boomerang", and will band together against any sort of sanction for any party, because they know both sides are at fault. However, once the dispute is gone from AE and some time has passed, edit-warring begins again. Stop the cycle. RGloucester — ☎ 19:39, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Dicklyon and Darkfrog24

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Dicklyon

Neither of us has editted Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Register for nearly a week. We have confined our edit war to a stupid subpage (Wikipedia:WikiProject Manual of Style/External support) that nobody cares about; not clear why RGloucester thought that to be worth stalking and complaining about. Anyway, as long as the Dark Frog keeps saying that the MOS requires British style, I keep reverting, to the version that acknowledges that the style our MOS recommends, "logical style", is called "British style" by some sources. And I keep adding more sources of "support" for the MOS, as that's what the page says it's about.

If people would prefer to see us stop this, I would be happy to see a ban of any term, hopefully indef, on either of us editing this page. I'd go further and propose it for deletion at MfD, as it's just the DF's place to collect anti-MOS info, trying to set up WP:LQ to be an ENGVAR issue, which it is not. The sources are all clear on this style correlating more with region (American/Canada vs the rest of the world), as opposed to any tie to dialect. The sources I've been adding make it clear that many, or most as one source admits, Americans prefer the logical style; I acknowledge that the dark frog does not. Note that the page is essentially empty except for the one section Wikipedia:WikiProject_Manual_of_Style/External_support#Punctuation_inside_or_outside which was filled in by the DF as part of her campaign against LQ. It is inappropriate for her to be doing this (and yes, I admit it's inappropriate for me to be edit warring, too, but I honestly didn't think anyone would notice or care about this venue).

The closest thing to an accusation of lying was in my edit summary phrase "that's your lie" in this edit. I regret that I expressed it thus. I could have said "that's your interpretation"; anyway, no reason she should be including a controversial interpret of a source that way.

As for the so-called 3RR accusation, I don't think we've seen 3 or more edit cycles in any day. Methinks this is just RGloucester resurrecting his grudge. I have done my best to not interact with him, but he makes it hard now. Dicklyon (talk) 03:19, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note that below DF claims to have shown "sources that explicitly state that the practice required by Wikipedia's MoS is British". This is twisted. These sources do not mention "the practice required by Wikipedia's MoS"; this is her over-interpretation and misrepresentation; reading more closely often shows that what they call British is actually not quite the same as the logical style that our MOS advocates. Dicklyon (talk) 04:46, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

(Following comment is a response to Newyorkbrad. It was moved by RGloucester.)

I already said I'd be up for any mutual restriction there. Dicklyon (talk) 22:26, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Darkfrog24

This complaint is an overreaction. As the edits themselves show, this isn't a straight revert-and-revert situation. Dicklyon and I are triangulating our way toward a version that we can both live with.[1] [2] [3] We've both been compromising and giving way to the other here and there. He stopped removing the Chicago Manual of Style from the page after I took it to the talk page and gave a good reason why he should do so (see first paragraph at this link [4]). I didn't remove the ABA reference even though I don't think it's necessary. There are a few points on which I think he's flat-out wrong and I'm confident he feels the same way, but this is a work in progress, not a stalemate.

A few factual corrections to RG's report: There haven't been accusations of lying "back and forth." Dicklyon accused me of lying. To my knowledge, I've never said anything indicating that he doesn't believe what he says. However, this measure is still an overreaction. I went to his user talk page and asked him to stop. He agreed that "lie" was taking it too far, and he hasn't done it again. It's already been dealt with.

I concur with Dicklyon regarding 3RR. I don't usually count, but I don't think either of us violated 3RR. I thought I might have been close once, so I self-reverted just in case. I also deliberately slowed it down starting a few days ago, and it feels like he might've done so too. Dicklyon did mark two substantive edits as "minor," but that might have been an accident. Again, I just went to his user page (same thread as above) and asked him to be more careful. It's already been dealt with.

If RG or anyone feels that the text of MOS:SUPPORTS does not reflect consensus, then the answer is to bring in more people either with an RfC, at a noticeboard, or less formally. I took the issue to the NPOV noticeboard for that reason.

Correction to Dicklyon: I am not collecting anti-MOS info at MOS:SUPPORTS. I hate the British-only rule and would love to see it changed to allow American punctuation in American English articles, but I was the first one to add sources to MOS:SUPPORTS proving that it is indeed correct British English[5] and I didn't add any quotes that specifically said that it isn't correct American English, even though most of the sources cited there do contain that information.[6] Another correction: No Americans do not prefer logical style (better known as British style). Mainstream style guides almost universally require American style. For sources indicating this, see MOS:SUPPORTS and its talk page.

Response to SmC: I would love to apply neutrality rules to WP:SUPPORTS.[7]

In summary, Dicklyon and I are dealing with this just fine on our own. Neither of us should be banned in any way. The appropriate thing for other editors to do is to come to the talk page and give their two cents.

EDIT: If I'm going to respond to SMcCandlish's accusations, I'm going to need more space. Suffice it to say that most of what he's saying isn't true. It's not that he's lying, but he sees what he wants to see. For example, no Wikipedia has not been "criticized in the British press for nationalistic inaccuracy." The writer mentions Wikipedia but all he says is that he thinks one of the examples in one of the articles is wrong.[8] Please read for yourself and take all of SmC's other comments with a corresponding grain of salt. EDIT: SmC's response illustrates my point. Click the link and look at what Marsh actually wrote. Then come back here and look at what SmC concluded about it. Observe how much stretching it takes to get from A to B, and assume that he did that with his other points as well. Again, he's not lying—he just fails to see that his conclusions are interpretation plus wishful thinking and not fact. I've shown him a dozen sources that explicitly state that the practice required by Wikipedia's MoS is British. I'm not the one in denial.

Response to Dicklyon's comment: If anyone wants to see the sources that show that this practice is British, I will gladly supply them.

(Following comment is a response to Newyorkbrad. It was moved by RGloucester.)

I don't think it's necessary. It's a productive process and we're discussing things on multiple talk pages. RG is blowing things out of proportion again. Darkfrog24 (talk) 22:33, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tony1

I agree with the comment below that this is lame; but not that sanctions are appropriate here. Both involved users are valuable participants on MOS and other WP pages. They should simply agree to cool off and undertake to avoid cross-editing.

RGloucester is a well-known provocateur, and I believe started the thread here out of pure mischief. Regard his first post at the talkpage in question, then the starting of this thread at AE just 23 minutes later, before any futher activity on either the article page or talkpage there. Note also his statement that the page in question "has no standing within the MoS, no community consensus backs it, it is essentially a user essay, and should probably be put in the user space." It is, then, heavily ironic that he should seek to cause maximum disruption by using the apparent "DS" status of that page to start a thread here. It is disingenuous and not in the spirit of calming ruffled waters. Tony (talk) 11:51, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SMcCandlish

TL;DR version: This sums up the problem perfectly: This is a "hate"-based personal WP:BATTLEGROUND matter for one editor, who will never, ever drop the stick of their belief that logical quotaion "is British" and "is wrong" for Americans, no matter how often this is disproved by citation to sources showing American publishers and style guides using logical quotation, and British style guides defining various conflicting styles, none of which are actually logical quotation, just superficially similar. All Darkfrog24 ever brings to the table is relentless equating of LQ with British to every audience available (based on nothing but the failure of some American sources to bother to distinguish them), making a bogus ENGVAR case so that Darkfrog24 can do whatever Darkfrog24 wants. This campaign against MOS consensus has been going on for 6.5 years and needs to be ended, with a topic ban. Dick Lyon reverting anti-consensus, polemic PoV and OR in the page in question (before it gets MfDed, which I plan to take care of as soon as possible – it's a WP:NOTHERE problem to have a page devoted to externally sourcing internal documentation instead of sourcing encyclopedia articles) is not comparable to Darkfrog24 editwarring to re-insert their PoV, OR and anti-consensus polemic. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼ 19:59, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Longer version

I'm wary of getting involved in this without providing an enormous pile of diffs. For now I'll just say the following: Dick Lyon is trying to bring some factual rigor and neutrality balance to a page that is effectively owned by a single editor, and which serves no purpose but as a WP:POLEMIC of WP:GREATWRONGS activism against the WP Manual of Style on a few points of idiosyncratic interest to Darkfrog24. (I believe someone else created the page originally with the goal of providing off-WP documentation for every MOS point that could be approached that way. The entire thing is a WP:NOTHERE exercise. The WP does not exist to try quixotically to externally source its own internal consensus-based documentation, or to serve as a blogging platform for some of its editors to try to prove other ones "wrong" about some WP-internal question about which we already have consensus. We're here to source encyclopedia articles.) I was preparing a WP:MFD to deal with the MOS:SUPPORTS page, but Darkfrog24 is shopping their campaign against logical quotation at WP:NPOVN, tying up the SUPPORTS page in an ongoing DR process that cannot actually reach resolution. I've requested at WP:ANRFC that it be closed, since MoS is out-of-scope for the NPOVN noticeboard. I've also been preparing a WP:RFARB case to deal with Darkfrog24's 6.5-year, tendentious, POV- and OR-based, nationalistic "slow editwar" against logical quotation on Wikipedia, which has spilled over into mainspace at Quotation marks in English and even into related Wiktionary articles. If AE wants to address evidence of disruptive behavior by Darkfrog24 regarding MOS and related pages – behavior that has continued despite repeated warnings and a WP:ARBATC Ds/alert from an admin – I'll be willing to start the diffing and the detailed disruption report here, though it would likely be better saved for RFARB, and I won't be able to get to it for probably 24 hours or so.

Anyway, it's not wrong for Dick Lyon or anyone else to try to moderate the content in that page, while it still exists, even if reverting repeatedly isn't the best way to go about that. A revert in favor of consensus and neutrality is not the same thing as a revert to get one's personal, axe-grinding interpretation reinstated. There is in fact plenty of discussion on the talk page, not just REVTALK. What I see is Lyon taking logic-defended position, and DF24 engaging in a lot of hand-waving and fist-shaking. Each time the discussion plays out that way and comes to another DF24-cannot-be-swayed impasses, WP:BRD (which isn't policy anyway) has in fact been satisfied, and Lyon's not in the wrong to return to trying to edit the page to stop being an attack on MOS consensus. Since DF24 clearly acts to control the content of that page in great detail, and no one else cares about it other than it not be full of carefully targeted falsehoods while still in the "Wikipedia:" namespace), then a simple solution to the current dispute is to move the SUPPORTS page to DF24's userspace and let it be properly named as the user essay it is. That won't deal with the larger behavioral issues I've hinted at, but that probably is properly an RFARB matter. It's not just failure to comply with ARBATC; it's a host of highly specific behavior patterns that are not intrinsically MOS-related, just incidentally but consistently disrupting it in one editor's case. These same patterns are frequently brought to bear by various parties to control other material here, usually article content, and ArbCom tends to address these cases on an editor-by-editor, topic-by-topic basis. What I hope to not see here is AE treating all this as some annoying, pointless style dispute, then punish both parties the same just to make them shut up (or, worse, give a pass to whoever was better able to hide their incivility in florid wording), without regard to the underlying behavioral patterns and intent. If any restriction ensues (and a substantial one is long overdue for one of these editors), it should be broadly construed enough under ARBATC to cover articles on writing style/grammar/spelling/punctuation (though no wider – it shouldn't affect linguistics generally, writing generally, English generally, etc.) or it will not really have any effect at all but to move the POV/OR/EDITWAR problem entirely into mainspace, leading to further disputes and cases all centered on the same person and patterns. I don't share Tony1's enthusiasm for the contributions of both of the editors under discussion at MOS. Dick Lyon has been rational and collegial even when we've disagreed, sometimes sharply; always amenable to discussion and reconciliation; and remarkably consistent in his approach to WP:MOS / WP:AT (and other WP:POLICY matters). My experience with Darkfrog24 has been 180 degrees opposite, and while the editor has made some useful contributions to the MoS and related pages, they do not make up for or excuse almost 7 years of punctuated but extremely single-minded disruption and PoV pushing, across multiple namespaces and multiple WMF projects. That editor needs a lengthy break from the topic, most especially from quotation-mark-related content and discussions.

PS: I agree with Tony1's points about the questionable appropriateness of RGloucester's request here. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼ 13:38, 15 January 2016 (UTC) Updated 19:59, 15 January 2016 (UTC) Shortened. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼ 01:34, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

General response: Ultimately, it simply does not matter whose sourcing regarding off-WP quotation-mark usage is correct (if anyone's) – except in mainspace at Quotation marks in English (which also at present mostly just reflects DF24's views). Being an article, it can be dispute-moderated by the usual WP:CORE-related noticeboards like WP:NORN and WP:NPOVN if necessary.

It's an impermissible behavioral problem to spend years pushing a point of view about the matter, tendentiously against consensus, across both projectspace and mainspace. WP has an internal consensus to use LQ for actual reasons, and it doesn't matter which external sources agree with us (though plenty do, including the style guides of the American Chemical Society, the Council of Science Editors, the Linguistic Society of America, various humanities journals and universities, etc.). WP does not need additional protracted discussion at the talk page of "MOS:SUPPORTS", as DF24 suggests; the entire thing is a waste of editorial time and energy.

RGloucester's suggestion that MoS regulars "will band together against any sort of sanction for any party, because they know both sides are at fault" is not borne out here. One party in particular is clearly at fault, in a WP:ARBATC-actionable manner. RG is correct that the editwarring would resume (and not just at that page) after a while, but it would be by DF24 against anyone who disagrees, because history has demonstrated that this one editor will not drop that stick until they get their way on this matter. The slow-editwar history of MOS:FAQ proves this conclusively, as does the related pattern of OR-based PoV pushing at the other MOS-related pages, the article in question, and the related Wiktionary articles. Our actual content is being warped to support an I wanna use my preferred patriotic quotation style on Wikipedia at all costs agenda, and we've been publicly criticized for the nationalistic inaccuracy in the British press. From The Guardian: "Wikipedia, which claims to bat for Britain on this subject, gives the following misleading advice: [quotes the WP article's errors equating logical with British quotation.] Not so. The Guardian would follow the so-called American practice, and I think many British publications would agree with us." [9]. The denialism expressed by DF24 above is symptomatic of the issue with this editor. You see, sources simply do not say what they say if DF24 doesn't want to hear it. It's just a form of OR. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼ 22:39, 15 January 2016 (UTC) Updated with direct quote. 01:31, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Dicklyon and Darkfrog24

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Staggeringly lame. Both should be banned from that and related pages for at least three months. Guy (Help!) 21:51, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Concur with JzG. It appears the editors have dug into position here, and are not even pretending to try to find consensus or see the other editor's view. Killer Chihuahua 22:08, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The two comments above were left before the involved editors posted their statements.

Would both editors agree to stay off that subpage for at least a few weeks? Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:45, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

BjörnBergman

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning BjörnBergman

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Legacypac (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 23:48, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: BjörnBergman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Longevity#Motion:_Longevity_.28August_2015.29 : :

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

[10] Inserts a line about Zhou Youguang turning 110 today, which is fine, until you see his next edits where presumably this edit becomes "unverified". Zhou is a particularly famous person that invented Pinyin, a system credited with increasing Chinese literacy dramatically and making it possible for English etc speakers to pronounce Chinese words.
[11] Undid revision 700167425 by Ricky81682 Remove Zhou Youguang. He is not yet verified. This is a lost of VERIFIED supercentenarians.
[12] Another article - Zhou Youguang is unverified. This list includes VERIFIED supercentenarians.
[13] Undid revision 700171497 by Legacypac (talk) Why should Zhou be included if he is unaccepted by GRG???)
[14] reverts a notification that I reverted his edit with (Revert spam)
[15] reverts User:Ricky81682's cleanup of the lead to preserve the GRG special focus.
[16] reverts another attempt to dialog with him calling my message spam
[17] files a ANi vandalism report against me on longevity.

And in all this fails to engage on their own or any article talkpage they are editing.

There is no need but the problem is these are your own "rules" - if you only accept that SCs being verified can be only 110+ in reality in every list you also have to accept this here. It is one of your own contradicting rules.GreatGreen (talk) 08:45, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Gave an alert about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on Jan 16 which they immediately blanked [18] also the DS are mentioned on all the main Longevity talk pages. I recognize that it appears they were not notified on their user page about the DS until just before I filed the report, so if Admins feel that the talk page notices are not enough to cover a topic ban, perhaps appropriate guidance can be given at least.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint: The refusal to follow WP policy in favor of GRG being the only source of any verified longevity claim, discarding all other sources, make this user problematic in this topic area. We are dealing with pure craziness in this topic like this [19] so it is important to bring editors into policy or remove them from the topic area. Legacypac (talk) 23:48, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]; Response to BabbaQ: No one can put his disregard for policy in his head but himself. I've not looked at his edits outside this topic area as that is of no concern to this matter. The edits are not all against me either. Now we have IPs attacking these articles saying the same stuff as him. See edit history of Zhou Youguang for example. Legacypac (talk) 01:04, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: [20]

Discussion concerning BjörnBergman

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

In my opinion it is Legacypac that is "wrong" here. He is basically picking fights with users. BjörnBergman is a productive user who has helped with probably thousands of Swedish topic related articles. BjörnBergman does not seem to be the disruptive kind of user and there seem to have been plenty of bickering and baiting back and forth. No sanctions or blocks needed.--BabbaQ (talk) 00:32, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by BjörnBergman

Statement by BabbaQ

Seems like BjörnBergman has gone for the old "baiting" trick. If you consider the overall edits between the two users it is clear to me that BjörnBergman should not even have been reported in the first place. At best this situation should have taken to admins incidents noticeboard or similar. And calling another users edits " pure craziness" as stated above by Legacypac about other users seems to be just the kind of baiting used to start this discussion in the first place. I would suggest that both BjörnBergman and Legacypac should take a cooling-off period and stay out of each others ways. --BabbaQ (talk) 00:42, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning BjörnBergman

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

[1] The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.

[2] This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

[a]

[b]

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