Jump to content

Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard

Edit links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Welcome to the no original research noticeboard
    This page is for requesting input on possible original research. Ask for advice here regarding material that might be original research or original synthesis.
    • Include links to the relevant article(s).
    • Make an attempt to familiarize yourself with the no original research policy before reporting issues here.
    • You can also post here if you are unsure whether the content is considered original research.
    		 Sections older than 28 days archived by MiszaBot II.
    Click here to purge this page
    (For help, see Wikipedia:Purge)
    Shortcuts
    If you mention specific editors, please notify them. You may use {{subst:NORN-notice}} to do so.

    Additional notes:

    • "Original research" includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. Such content is prohibited on Wikipedia.
    • For volunteers wishing to mark a discussion resolved, use {{Resolved|Your reason here ~~~~}} at the top of the section.
    To start a new request, enter a name (section header) for your request below:

    mentioned wrong history on bhumihar

    history on bhumihar written on the article is not correct. the content is abusive and sprading a wrong message in the community so please give your attention on this topic because wikipedia common for collectin the information. so you should give your attention on the credibility of wekipedia.

    i am giving you the genetic report of NCBI on bhumihar , which prove that bhumihar and brahmin have same genetic. thank you link:- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12959898 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:205:a0c2:55a7:f17a:3ace:1c33:9029 (talk) 07:12, 4 April 2018‎ (UTC)[reply]

    Cowboy bedroll

    The Cowboy bedroll page seems to have rather a lot of original research, particularly in "The traveling cowboy" subsection which spends quite a long time criticising a source without providing any supporting material. The editor who added this analysis seems to have done a lot of research themselves and I don't necessarily doubt their conclusions, but would the NOR policy cover this? It makes it very hard to take the article at face value because it's clear the editor has performed their own analysis and isn't citing their claims. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.255.176.28 (talk) 09:51, 26 April 2018‎ (UTC)[reply]

    Impact of the privatisation of British Rail

    This article - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_the_privatisation_of_British_Rail - has the tone and content of a white paper for a think tank, rather than an encyclopedic entry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.39.22.31 (talk) 13:19, 16 May 2018‎ (UTC)[reply]

    Ahbash

    Original research is likely here regarding Al-Azhar in the article. Would like input regarding this RFC [1]

    Origin of the Romanians

    This is about [2], namely about what WP:PRIMARY means in respect to WP:MEDRS, WP:HISTRS and WP:SCIRS. Origin of the Romanians#DNA / Paleogenetics seems exclusively based on primary sources, no reviews are cited. See Wikipedia:Why MEDRS?#Primary scientific literature is exceptionally unreliable in biology. It's not our task to write reviews of primary scientific literature. Tgeorgescu (talk) 16:58, 9 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    I think that people are confusing "secondary source" with "MEDRS-compliant source". The sources in question are secondary sources since the actual definition of the term is A secondary source provides an author's own thinking based on primary sources, generally at least one step removed from an event. It contains an author's analysis, evaluation, interpretation, or synthesis of the facts, evidence, concepts, and ideas taken from primary sources. - you may notice that it says nowhere "of other publications". However, they don't meet MEDRS and I'd ask for a stronger, MEDRS-like source i.e a meta review or such here. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 17:10, 9 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • A primary source in science is one where the authors directly participated in the research. They filled the test tubes, analyzed the data, or designed the particle accelerator, or at least supervised those who did. Many, but not all, journal articles are primary sources—particularly original research articles.
    • A secondary source is a source presenting and placing in context information originally reported by different authors. These include literature reviews, systematic review articles, topical monographs, specialist textbooks, handbooks, and white papers by major scientific associations. News reports are also secondary sources, but should be used with caution as they are seldom written by persons with disciplinary expertise. An appropriate secondary source is one that is published by a reputable publisher, is written by one or more experts in the field, and is peer reviewed. University presses and other publishing houses known for publishing reliable science books will document their review process. Do not confuse a scientific review (the article/document) with peer review (the activity).
    • A tertiary source usually summarizes a range of secondary sources. Encyclopedias, general textbooks, popular science books, and tables of values are tertiary sources.
    From WP:SCIRS. Tgeorgescu (talk) 19:29, 9 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    1) What the OP editor considers WP:PRIMARY in the DNA section mentioned is debatable. A cursory look at one such DNA study mentioned will show that it actually references several other previous studies, thus presenting and placing in context information originally reported by different authors. That's the very definition of a secondary source, as according to the Wiki definition, "in some fields, a secondary source may include a summary of the literature in the Introduction of a scientific paper." These DNA studies also introduce new information but that's par for the course, so the classification here is not obvious, although I'd argue it leans towards these studies being secondary sources.
    2) These DNA studies also comply with WP:MEDRS, as "Ideal sources for biomedical information include: review articles (especially systematic reviews) published in reputable medical journals; academic and professional books written by experts in the relevant fields and from respected publishers; and guidelines or position statements from national or international expert bodies."
    3) These DNA studies also comply with WP:SCIRS, as ""Scientific information should be based on reliable published sources and should accurately reflect the current state of knowledge."
    4) Anyone (including the OP) is free to post (other) secondary or tertiary sources in that section, if any are available at this time.
    5) There are countless Wiki pages dedicated to DNA studies of various populations and they all contain such sources as are "in question" here. If somehow we create a precedent where we deem these type of sources "unreliable" then we'd need to delete all those Wiki pages and completely remove all DNA studies from Wikipedia, which would amount to nothing short of a travesty.
    In summary, I believe we should keep all the info in the section and if the OP (or anyone else) has anything to ADD in the way of secondary or tertiary sources, he's welcome to do so. That would improve the article.Iovaniorgovan (talk) 06:41, 10 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    @Tgeorgescu: As per WP:CLAIMS, what exactly are the sources that you find inappropriate?Cealicuca (talk) 15:05, 10 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    I mean: all sources which are neither literature reviews nor treatises, handbooks and such. Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:39, 10 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    @Tgeorgescu: What I meant is for you to list the sources that are not, according to you, appropriate.Cealicuca (talk) 08:59, 11 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Perhaps with the exception of the first sentence, everything else is based only on primary scientific literature in biology. Tgeorgescu (talk) 19:43, 11 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Copy/pasted from WP:MEDRS. Tgeorgescu (talk) 02:19, 12 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I mean: being a Romanian is not a disease so, strictly speaking, it is not a biomedical claim. But for all other purposes such research in human genetics is primary literature in biology. Tgeorgescu (talk) 19:37, 18 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    @Tgeorgescu: What I meant is for you to have listed the sources that are not, according to you, appropriate. You haven't done that. Instead you chose to re-iterate a WP:RULE. I would like to remind you that "one of the poorest attempts at unsubstantiated claims is to merely suggest a situation violates a list of Wikipedia acronyms, but give no evidence, as merely "WP:THIS or WP:THAT or WP:THEOTHER". Such a list of WP acronyms is often a warning sign to beware that there is no significant basis to the claims" accodring to WP:CLAIMS.Cealicuca (talk) 11:40, 19 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I reiterate my point: except perhaps the first and second sentence in that section, everything else is sourced to primary scientific literature in biology. I mean: everything else, prove me wrong if you can. You cannot, because there is no other secondary scientific literature in biology there. Don't WP:Wikilawyer to hammer your point, I have been clear enough. E.g. no other source is called "review", "treatise" or "handbook". Oh, yes, Pinhasi et. al. seems a review, and so is apparently Renfrew (although we cannot be sure about the later). These two sources are used to verify the first two sentences, in that section these two sentences only serve as introduction to the topic, the positive findings of these two sources about Romanians and their ancestors are not in any way used in the article. So, only lip service is paid to secondary scientific literature in biology, there is no use made of their positive findings, although per WP:MEDRS and WP:SCIRS the secondary literature should supersede every other source cited in that section. Tgeorgescu (talk) 17:42, 19 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    It's good that you reiterate your point. You started by dismissing the whole section. I think you should reconsider. I don't have to prove you wrong, and neither anyone else, when you don't back up your claims. I am disheartened by your aggressiveness on this matter. I don't understand what's so hard - simply post the sources that you consider are not appropriate.Cealicuca (talk) 05:28, 28 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I mean the whole section has no positive information about the origin of Romanians sourced to any secondary scientific literature in biology. I the areas I have edited, this has been often seen as a problem, not as a virtue. Tgeorgescu (talk) 10:58, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    So you are able to take the time to re-iterate the same idea, but don't have the time to do a simple copy-paste and list the exact problems? You find the time to copy-paste from WP:POLICY but (again) avoid naming those sources? It's a small section, it's not the entire article - an article which, by the way, contains a section Evidence that you seem to have no problem that it uses sourced statements in a context contrary to what those sources meant, or that it lists sourced statements without any connection/relevance to what the article itself designates as being mainstream theories. Otherwise - you use some generic statements that may be true. Everyone can agree to that...Cealicuca (talk) 11:26, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    As they say, all it takes to show that all swans aren't white is one black swan. Tgeorgescu (talk) 11:41, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    They might say that - and thank you for the insight - but it is irrelevant to the current debate. However, since you insist on playing logic: Wow... You're actually expecting *other* people to "disprove" a negative statement that you make? "They" actually say that showing a swan is black is all it takes to prove that not all swans are white. There's a huge difference. When you state that ALL swans are black, and later on admit that there's some white among them, it seems only natural to actually revise your original statement (ie. instead of "all swans are black" -> "some swans are black") as well as actually pointing out which swans are black. Thank you.Cealicuca (talk) 12:46, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    The two sources which could be construed as secondary literature are not used for positive statements about the origin of the Romanians, they are used for paying lip service to the greatness of genetic studies. I have consulted those two sources, and they don't have anything to say about Romanians in particular. Pinhasi has concerns about contamination of Ancient DNA. A common denominator of the literature in the field is that it is hard to differentiate among European populations. Tgeorgescu (talk) 12:57, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh well... since you can't seem to be bothered to do it, I'll do it. You're talking about "From molecular genetics to archaeogenetics. PNAS, Colin Renfrew, 2001" and "Pinhasi R, Thomas MG, Hofreiter M, Currat M, Burger J. The genetic history of Europeans. Trends in Genetics. 2012 Oct;28(10):496-505. PubMed PMID 22889475. Epub 2012/08/15. Eng". Those two sources being related to the following: "The use of genetic data to supplement traditional disciplines has now become mainstream. Given the palimpsest nature of modern genetic diversity, more direct evidence has been sought from ancient DNA (aDNA)." Both those statements clearly refer to the general setting of genetic data and modern genetics - they don't even pretend to do something else. The fact that we have that in a "DNA / Paleogenetics" section is not hurting, but actually adds context to whatever other content is added. Considering the parent section is labeled Evidence (without establishing what are the sourced statements evidence for, that despite the sources themselves stating that...) I see no problem with establishing, with two statements, the general credibility of genetic research or the fact that genetic research is relevant to the study of the origin of a population.Cealicuca (talk) 13:12, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I did not say that it would be irrelevant. Fact is that from that section any positive information about Romanians and their ancestors is only based upon primary scientific literature in biology. And that in most WP:MEDRS and WP:SCIRS areas is a big sign of unreliability. Tgeorgescu (talk) 14:18, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    And... it gets increasingly odd and silly... all living Europeans had the same European ancestors 1000 years ago, see [3]. Back then I had the same European ancestors as the Queen of England. See also [4]. Tgeorgescu (talk) 00:42, 18 November 2018 (UTC) [reply]

    * Isolated studies are usually considered tentative and may change in the light of further academic research. If the isolated study is a primary source, it should generally not be used if there are secondary sources that cover the same content. The reliability of a single study depends on the field. Avoid undue weight when using single studies in such fields. Studies relating to complex and abstruse fields, such as medicine, are less definitive and should be avoided. Secondary sources, such as meta-analyses, textbooks, and scholarly review articles are preferred when available, so as to provide proper context.

    — WP:SCHOLARSHIP

    Quoted by Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:39, 2 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    ARIJ in Halamish

    There is a dispute about a report issued by the Applied Research Institute–Jerusalem in the article Halamish. The report is this village profile of Deir Nidham. In the report it says that

    In 1997 Israeli authorities confiscated 604 dunums of Deir Nidham lands (21.9% of the village’s total area) for the construction of the Hamich settlement, which is currently inhabited by around 1000 Israeli settlers.

    Earlier in the report it says the following:

    The public water system passes through the Israeli settlement of Hamich and settlers sometimes break the line, leading to water shortages for the village.

    and

    Wastewater from the Hamich settlement is discharged on the village’s agricultural lands, causing serious problems and leaking into springs and ground water.

    The only settlement near Deir Nidham is Halamish, and there are a number of sources discussing the water being shut off by Halamish, eg Oxfam:

    In village after village, people told Oxfam staff of damage to water networks, sources, and storage facilities by settlers and the Israeli military. This included ripping up pipes, shooting at PWA and municipality water personnel and the destruction of cisterns. The water supply to the village of Deir Nidham, Ramallah District, is connected to the Israeli network but comes through the Halamish settlement first. Villagers report that settlers shut off the valve for periods of time and on four occasions gave destroyed the water pipe in the stretch after village's water metre located in the settlement.

    An editor is arguing that it is OR to say the ARIJ is referring to Hamich, while my position is that it is evident that there is a difference in spelling here but that the settlement in question is obvious. Is it OR to include this? nableezy - 19:52, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Jeez - OR on NOR/N - water/sewege spats are common (one can find such on nearly all inhabited places in the West Bank). One should note that ARIJ in a document on a different village - [5] - use Hallamish. Where Hamich (not a reasonable Hebrew/Arabic-English error - dropped L + garbled ending) might be (though probably not the Hamoch near Aachen) is not for us to guess.Icewhiz (talk) 20:04, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I wasnt using Oxfam to say it was uncommon for settlers to destroy Palestinian water pipes, but to say that in Deir Nidham that it happens due to settlers in Halamish. That is, I was showing that the place that ARIJ called Hamich is called Halamish in other sources. nableezy - 20:10, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    As Oxfam merely spins a common tale in the region, but does not say Hamich=Halamish - this is pure OR.Icewhiz (talk) 20:22, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Im not putting in an article "Hamich=Halamish", so I dont really know what you are complaining about. I am using, here, Oxfam to show that ARIJ was referring to what we call "Halamish". nableezy - 20:24, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Tulsa race riot original research about a fire

    Most of this set of edits[6] is an OR attempt to explain what happened during a fire using sources that do not mention the riot. Seems classic synthesis but the IP disagrees. Doug Weller talk 06:34, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    please discuss your issues on the page's talk page so that editors can understand your concerns.175.36.196.38 (talk) 06:47, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I believe this may actually be an NPOV issue, so editors please be aware of the ongoing NPOV that Doug Weller is trying to avoid by calling the discussion of the matter original research.175.36.196.38 (talk) 07:06, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I've no clue what NPOV issue the IP is referring to. The whole section "New eyewitness account" is full of OR, from using sources discussing fires but not the Tulsa riot to make an argument against the account to "Franklin creatively describes", "He did not report", and " In many ways, this account mirrors accounts previously examined by Warner". Suitable for an essay but not for Wikipedia. Doug Weller talk 08:37, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    The IP's latest edit includes, unsourced, "Furthermore it curious that witnesses claimed Brady dedicated the tarring and feathering to, "the women and children of Belgium." The reference to Belgium may be a reference to the WW1 occupation of Belgium by Germany." Doug Weller talk 17:08, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    'It is curious that...' is pure EDITORIALIZING; '...may be a reference to...' is speculation, which without attribution certainly becomes OR. Also agree that the series of edits shown above is SYNTH - it's joining dots between sources, explaining the reasoning, and drawing possible conclusions. The conclusions might well be reasonable (I haven't read the sourcing properly yet), but they seem to be a novel synthesis that isn't explicit in the sources. GirthSummit (blether) 18:24, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    if you check the article revision history, immediately after i reverted your deletion I did in fact add the section NPOV and appropriately referenced it in the edit summary, "23:12, 19 December 2018‎ 175.36.196.38 (talk)‎ . . (95,119 bytes) +60‎ . . (→‎New eyewitness account: added npov tag POV-section|talk=John W. Franklin|date=December 20,2018)"

    this is another issue entirely but if it must be discussed here instead of the NPOV section then I will do so. The tulsa daily world article in that section relating to brady mentions only unnamed assailants. it was assumed, based on the half of a document provided by the Land Press, authored by LA brown, that the ringleader was W Tate Brady. On the first page of that archived Tulsa Daily World paper refers to a group of men arrested outside the I.W.W. headquarters. no mention of the race of the victims in this particular tarring incident is mentioned by either Brown or the TDW article. instead, brown mentions a trade unionist movement and strikes while the TDW article mentions a number of...im not sure if they can be considered factual or fanciful articles about IWW members being arrested with deadly new secret poisons. the TDW ran a few articles on the IWW during the war, none of them seeming particularly factual. anyway, the IWW was a trade union and the men were targeted for belonging to the trade union. purportedly so, according to the TDW article and L.A. Brown memo. the only relationship between a politically motivated attack and belgium likely is that trade unions were considered to be communist splinter cells planning to sabotage domestic industry, hence supporting the enemy in the war effort. as flanders was a major staging area in WW1, the relationship between the conquest of belgium and supporting the enemy through domestic industrial action, as many saw it at that time in history seems a logical conclusion. There's no other explanation for why someone affiliated with a group publicly decried as german spies(factually or not) would torture another and claim the act was in support of belgium in the year of 1917. sources indicate that it was a politically motivated attack, not a racially motivated attack. however there's no conclusive evidence to suggest that the W Tate Brady was present during the attack. i'm trying not to expand too much with things that dont seem relevant to the article.

    In regards to the issue raised concerning the roofs catching fire, I've clearly illustrated that the hollow, unpartitioned walls of balloon-framed houses easily allow fire to spread within the internal wall cavity and that the prevalence of wooden roofing of a particular type in this era easily allows fire to spread via ember attack from rooftop to rooftop with documented cases of this occurring. so the statement that what Franklin observed can and does happen even in the absence of aerial bombardment is the issue? so it can just be divided into two lines such as, "franklin observed fire spreading from rooftop to rooftop which led him to the conclusion that they must be under attack by air." and, "fires have been observed spreading from rooftop to rooftop in the absence of aerial bombardment." and then I can just move over the content to the balloon-framing article and ember attack articles where relevant?

    175.36.196.38 (talk) 02:54, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    I have made edits to the areas of which there has been criticism, the eye witness account subheading and tate brady paragraph. Can you please check if this conforms to your expectations? 175.36.196.38 (talk) 05:40, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Does the it need a source or the sky is blue?

    Uninvolved editors' comment is requested.

    Black people holding MEK's flags.

    Do we need a source saying these black people (probably of African decent) depicted in this picture are non-Iranian? Beside's other things, you can see the woman standing is wearing a cross necklace. Also, it's apparently a common practice for MEK to bring non-Iranian people to their gatherings ([7], [8], [9], [10]). This source especially says how African people are brought to the MEK's gatherings. --Mhhossein talk 09:58, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Yes, a source is needed. While I would agree that it is quite likely that the people in your photo are not Iranians, we can not be positive. There are people of African-Iranian heritage. This isn’t a “sky is blue” situation. Blueboar (talk) 10:18, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Blueboar: Yes, there are Afro-Iranians. But, as far as I know, those depicted in this picture never look like Afro-Iranians and the probability of having Christian Afro-Iranians supporting MEK is quite zero. --Mhhossein talk 11:36, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    And just what is an Afro-Iranian supposed to look like? Do they all have only one eye or something? Seriously, you can not tell someone’s nationality from a photo (and even ethnicity is difficult). As for the fact that one person is wearing a cross... does not tell us anything, since there are Christians from Iran (not a lot, mind you, but they do exist). Finally, have you considered the possibility that the photo may show a mix of people (both Iranians AND non-Iranians)? We can not say for sure who these people are without a source. There are too many possibilities. Blueboar (talk) 12:43, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Let me question your partiality having asked such a question. I'm not sure if this is a serious question, but Afro-Iranians are usually not that black and certainly have 2 eyes (See their photos). You're closing your eyes on a reliable source saying "The MEK flew a group of 25 Africans from Sudan and Eritrea to New York from their homes in Ottowa, Canada," showing that it's highly possible to have repeated the same scenario. Of course one's nationality or ethnicity is possibly determinable seeing his/her photo. I'm seeing your effort at considering very much unlike possibilities into considerations. It's very hard to believe that those in the picture are 11 christian Afro-Iranians participating a MEK gathering in Paris!!! --Mhhossein talk 13:11, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    It's clearly an OR issue. Consider how many loops of logic you are asking people to jump through to understand there's no way these could be non-Iranian black people in the photo. Far far far too many, requiring background information and inductive reasoning. We can say, from the photo alone, they are black people, and there are a number of them, and they are holding signs, but that's about all WP editors can state before it delves into OR requiring sourcing. --Masem (t) 15:49, 22 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Afro-Iranians exist. As do African American-Iranians - e.g. T. J. Houshmandzadeh. And even if they did not exist - this would be OR to say they are not Iranian - and also OR to say they were paid.Icewhiz (talk) 11:42, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    [Note: the above comment is made by an involved party] --Mhhossein talk 13:13, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Who said they don't exist? --Mhhossein talk 12:52, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Less involved than yourself - and the question (or subsequent participation) here is not neutrally phrased. Prior discussion - Talk:People's Mujahedin of Iran#"Non-Iranian rent-a-crowd" image.Icewhiz (talk) 13:28, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    you can quote, if you attribute it inline. from your reference, for example, you could say,  "Kourosh Kalhour, spokesman for an iranian pro-monarchist group was quoted as stating, “Basically, what you see is “rent-a-crowd,” " but then it becomes immediately obvious to the reader that they could be just saying that because they're the opposition. if you look for an opposing quote, criticism of the pro-monarchist group's protest or commentary of some sort from the day giving each parties perspective then it's more likely to not be challenged. part of wikipedia is stating facts and letting others decide what to make of the facts. for the photo, you would need to find a photograph that is opensource or you own the copyright for it, publish it at wikipedia and have a source of a reliable news organisation or author or institution criticising the race of people in the photo. I dont think you will be able to manage this so its probably best to leave the photo alone.

    the reference you give states that the sudanese people in the photograph were there to support the group and promote awareness of similar human rights abuses in Dafur.[11]

    175.36.196.38 (talk) 10:29, 22 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    As an involved editor,@Masem: such demonstrations (which were organized by MEK) have occurred opposite the Headquarters of the United Nations in 2013 and according to farda report, the presence of non-Iranian has been considerable. You use Google to translate the Persian text saying there were plenty of non-Iranians in the demonstration. You can see black people, too.Saff V. (talk) 07:39, 27 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    When a picture is provided and readers are asked to draw conclusions, it is implicit OR. If the lead picture for "United States" was "Obese American eating a hamburger," for example, it would provide a narrative. You do not mention btw what article the picture is used for or what text it is supposed to illustrate. If the demonstration and the make up of demonstrators is discussed, it could be appropriate. Incidentally, the picture is sourced to VOA and says, "African-American citizens with People's Mujahedin of Iran banners in demonstrations in front of headquarters of the United Nations, New York City." If you can demonstrate that the picture and caption come from them and that VOA is a reliable source, you could use that rather than a personal interpretation of the image. TFD (talk) 00:41, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    Searching for an editor’s citations

    Is it possible to find all citations added to articles by an editor?--That man from Nantucket (talk) 07:07, 30 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]


    Illustrating an interactive work's complex plot?

    Over the weekend Netflix released Black Mirror: Bandersnatch, an interactive movie that the viewer can make choices. As noted by third-party RSes, the story has a complex branching pathway, but as long as you make the same choices as someone else, you'll end up following the same narrative as a similar viewer doing the same.

    For purposes of illustration, it would be nice to show a segment of this complex branching pathways, which we can make in a free image using simple shapes/etc. (Non-wikipedian versions of the flow chart have started looking like: [12]). The OR question becomes, based on all that we know about how the movie works, is a WPian making such a simplified flow chart by following the paths in the interactive movie considered OR? I would consider it "no" in the same way that normal plot summaries are not OR with implicit sourcing to the work itself to support it. This would only allow a rather high-level flow chart (it is claimed there's > 1 trillion paths for the work , and multiple endings, but for a WPian to track that all themselves would definitely be diving into OR) but that's all I'd want to see, enough to show that some choices loop back to previous scenes, etc, all broad details easily confirmed in third-party sources. --Masem (t) 17:33, 30 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    I think it is OR and so are plot summaries based on readings or viewings or original material. One issue in no original research is, "Wikipedia articles usually rely on material from reliable secondary sources." Most readers want to know the information that reliable sources find important, and expect that articles cover them and don't want to read information that reliable sources give little or no coverage.
    Bear in mind that readers are not necessarily fans.
    TFD (talk) 21:35, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:NOR allows for basic descriptions of a plot to be cited to primary sources (ie, the work itself). Any analysis of the plot, however, requires secondary sources. The problem with a flow chart is that it falls between a “description” of the plot, and an “analysis” of it. It isn’t a clear case of one or the other. However, because it does involve at least some degree of analysis, I would say it should be avoided. Blueboar (talk) 16:13, 6 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    Are we allowed say a writer "agrees" with another writer if they don't mention each other?

    Black Panther (film) currently includes the following text:

    James Wilt, writing for Canadian Dimension, stated that "at its core, Black Panther contains a fundamentally reactionary understanding of black liberation that blatantly advocates respectability politics over revolution" allowing "white folks such as myself to feel extremely comfortable watching it". Wilt found the scene where Ross is portrayed as "the hero" for shooting down the Wakandan ships to be the film's way of endorsing the crushing of armed revolt against oppression. Wilt also felt that Killmonger was given the "most hideous traits imaginable [making] the only major African-American character and agitator for revolution a manic killer consumed by rage and violence". Russell Rickford of Africa is a Country agreed with Wilt's assessment of Killmonger, whose role as a character is "to discredit radical internationalism".

    The thing is, Rickford doesn't mention Wilt, or Canadian Dimension, at all, and given the length of both pieces and the fact that they were apparently published one day apart, it seems highly unlikely that Rickford was even aware of Wilt's article before he sat down to write his own essay on a similar topic -- presumably they both just came to similar conclusions from watching the film when it was released a few days earlier.

    Is this kind of writing okay? I'm honestly not sure; I wouldn't write it myself, but I'm not convinced enough to unilaterally change it, so I'm here for a second (and maybe third, fourth, etc...) opinion.

    Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:25, 6 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    Best not to say they "agree" in these circumstances, unless the point is really specific (like say a disputed date). And here it's not even clear they are making exactly the same point. Johnbod (talk) 15:39, 6 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I would also not use ageeed either since that implies that Rickford is specifically referencing Wilt and there is nothing in the cited paragraph to indicate that is the case.--67.68.28.220 (talk) 05:55, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    Lists of works by year of entry into the public domain

    A set of articles have been created to list works that have entered the public domain, broken down by year of entry.

    By and large, none of these articles cite sources for the claims made that each of the works listed (a) has entered the public domain and (b) did so in the year indicated.

    While entry into the public domain is determined by copyright law, and a given Wikipedia editor may be aware of some or all of the provisions behind entry into the public domain, and may be aware of the factors used in making that determination, it appears to me that making the determination here based on facts obtained elsewhere that a given work has entered the public domain is an example of original research, very much the sort that is covered by WP:OR and especially WP:SYNTH. I believe that the commentary at WP:NOTOR and WP:NOTSYNTH makes it even more clear that the provisions regarding original research and synthesis are applicable here.

    It even seems to me that, in making the determination of public domain status for arbitrary works on its own, Wikipedia is essentially issuing a legal opinion on each of them (as opposed to reporting a legal opinion expressed in a reliable source), which Wikipedia shouldn't be doing. I don't know whether this is particularly worrisome to Wikipedia, but it seems to me that it could be, as I don't know whether a disclaimer like the one at Wikipedia:Legal disclaimer is a guarantee of immunity from prosecution in all countries of the world.

    I approached the situation by tagging each of the articles with {{original research}} tags. User:Leutha removed them all. In a follow-up discussion that I initiated on Leutha's talk page (to which User:Ymblanter contributed one comment), the beginning of which is here and the remainder of which (after an archiving of the talk page) is here. Leutha directed me to WP:NOTOR and WP:NOTSYNTH but, for reasons that I set forth at length, I found that they supported strongly my view that this is very much a situation that WP:SYNTH is meant to cover. I've received no response since I expressed that finding almost three days ago.

    Taking into account the contents of the aforementioned discussion, in which I even laid out concerns about possible sources of inaccuracy in reaching these conclusions about entry into the public domain, in addition to their originality, I wondered whether anyone here would chime in on the following questions:

    • Should these lists be tagged for original research?
    • Is the original research content of these articles so great, and would resolving the OR issue be so laborious (because every work would have to be sourced separately), that every work without a citation should be removed, and, if no works, or practically no works, are left, then the lists should be deleted?

    Largoplazo (talk) 17:10, 6 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    • I would agree these should be sourced, not only to avoid the OR described above, but as well as to provide a factor of notability. We're not including all works that possibly entered the PD, but those noted by sources (eg [13] for this year). Otherwise, these can start to become unmaintainable for non-notable works. --Masem (t) 17:30, 6 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • These lists aren't about works, but authors of works. The list you link to is fundamentally different, and only concerned with works coming into PD under the wacky US system. Our pages are all about death +x years. As far as I can see there is almost no overlap. Johnbod (talk) 17:27, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:No_original_research/Noticeboard&oldid=877524245"