Talk:Donald Trump

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Current consensus

NOTE: It is recommended to link to this list in your edit summary when reverting, as:
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01. Use the official White House portrait as the infobox image. (Dec 2016, Jan 2017, Oct 2017, March 2020) (temporarily suspended by #19 following copyright issues on the inauguration portrait, enforced when an official public-domain portrait was released on 31 October 2017)

02. Show birthplace as "Queens, New York City, U.S." in the infobox. (Nov 2016, Oct 2018, Feb 2021) "New York City" de-linked. (September 2020)

03. Omit reference to county-level election statistics. (Dec 2016)

04. Superseded by #15

Lead phrasing of Trump "gaining a majority of the U.S. Electoral College" and "receiving a smaller share of the popular vote nationwide", without quoting numbers. (Nov 2016, Dec 2016) (Superseded by #15 since 11 February 2017)

05. Use Trump's annual net worth evaluation and matching ranking, from the Forbes list of billionaires, not from monthly or "live" estimates. (Oct 2016) In the lead section, just write: Forbes estimates his net worth to be [$x.x] billion. (July 2018, July 2018) Removed from the lead per #47.

06. Do not include allegations of sexual misconduct in the lead section. (June 2016, Feb 2018)

07. Superseded by #35

Include "Many of his public statements were controversial or false." in the lead. (Sep 2016, February 2017, wording shortened per April 2017, upheld with July 2018) (superseded by #35 since 18 February 2019)

08. Mention that Trump is the first president elected "without prior military or government service". (Dec 2016)

09. Include a link to Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2017) Include a link to an archive of Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2021)

10. Keep Barron Trump's name in the list of children and wikilink it, which redirects to his section in Family of Donald Trump per AfD consensus. (Jan 2017, Nov 2016)

11. Superseded by #17

The lead sentence is "Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American businessman, television personality, politician, and the 45th President of the United States." (Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Feb 2017) (superseded by #17 since 2 April 2017)

12. The article title is Donald Trump, not Donald J. Trump. (RM Jan 2017, RM June 2019)

13. Auto-archival is set for discussions with no comments for 14 days. Manual archival is allowed for (1) closed discussions, 24 hours after the closure, provided the closure has not been challenged, and (2) "answered" edit requests, 24 hours after the "answer", provided there has been no follow-on discussion after the "answer". (Jan 2017) (amended with respect to manual archiving, to better reflect common practice at this article) (Nov 2019)

14. Omit mention of Trump's alleged bathmophobia/fear of slopes. (Feb 2017)

15. Superseded by lead rewrite

Supersedes #4. There is no consensus to change the formulation of the paragraph which summarizes election results in the lead (starting with "Trump won the general election on November 8, 2016, …"). Accordingly the pre-RfC text (Diff 8 Jan 2017) has been restored, with minor adjustments to past tense (Diff 11 Feb 2018). No new changes should be applied without debate. (RfC Feb 2017, Jan 2017, Feb 2017, Feb 2017) In particular, there is no consensus to include any wording akin to "losing the popular vote". (RfC March 2017) (Superseded by local consensus on 26 May 2017 and lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017)

16. Superseded by lead rewrite

Do not mention Russian influence on the presidential election in the lead section. (RfC March 2017) (Superseded by lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017)

17. Superseded by #50

Supersedes #11. The lead paragraph is "Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is the 45th and current president of the United States. Before entering politics, he was a businessman and television personality." The hatnote is simply {{Other uses}}. (April 2017, RfC April 2017, April 2017, April 2017, April 2017, July 2017, Dec 2018) Amended by lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017 and removal of inauguration date on 4 July 2018. Lower-case "p" in "president" per Dec 2018 and MOS:JOBTITLES RfC Oct 2017. Wikilinks modified per April 2020. Wikilink modified again per July 2020. "45th" de-linked. (Jan 2021)

18. Superseded by #63

The "Alma mater" infobox entry shows "Wharton School (BS Econ.)", does not mention Fordham University. (April 2017, April 2017, Aug 2020, Dec 2020)

19. Obsolete

Following deletion of Trump's official White House portrait for copyright reasons on 2 June 2017, infobox image was replaced by File:Donald Trump Pentagon 2017.jpg. (June 2017 for replacement, June 2017, declined REFUND on 11 June 2017) (replaced by White House official public-domain portrait according to #1 since 31 Oct 2017)

20. Mention protests in the lead section with this exact wording: His election and policies have sparked numerous protests. (June 2017, May 2018) (Note: In February 2021, when he was no longer president, the verb tense was changed from "have sparked" to "sparked", without objection.)

21. Superseded by #39

Omit any opinions about Trump's psychology held by mental health academics or professionals who have not examined him. (July 2017, Aug 2017) (superseded by #36 on 18 June 2019, then by #39 since 20 Aug 2019)

22. Do not call Trump a "liar" in Wikipedia's voice. Falsehoods he uttered can be mentioned, while being mindful of calling them "lies", which implies malicious intent. (RfC Aug 2017)

23. Superseded by #52

The lead includes the following sentence: Trump ordered a travel ban on citizens from several Muslim-majority countries, citing security concerns; after legal challenges, the Supreme Court upheld the policy's third revision. (Aug 2017, Nov 2017, Dec 2017, Jan 2018, Jan 2018) Wording updated (July 2018) and again (Sep 2018).

24. Superseded by #30

Do not include allegations of racism in the lead. (Feb 2018) (superseded by #30 since 16 Aug 2018)

25. Do not add web archives to cited sources which are not dead. (Dec 2017, March 2018)

26. Do not include opinions by Michael Hayden and Michael Morell that Trump is a "useful fool […] manipulated by Moscow" or an "unwitting agent of the Russian Federation". (RfC April 2018)

27. State that Trump falsely claimed that Hillary Clinton started the Barack Obama birther rumors. (April 2018, June 2018)

28. Include, in the Wealth section, a sentence on Jonathan Greenberg's allegation that Trump deceived him in order to get on the Forbes 400 list. (June 2018, June 2018)

29. Include material about the Trump administration family separation policy in the article. (June 2018)

30. Supersedes #24. The lead includes: "Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist." (RfC Sep 2018, Oct 2018, RfC May 2019)

31. Do not mention Trump's office space donation to Jesse Jackson's Rainbow/Push Coalition in 1999. (Nov 2018)

32. Omit from the lead the fact that Trump is the first sitting U.S. president to meet with a North Korean supreme leader. (RfC July 2018, Nov 2018)

33. Do not mention "birtherism" in the lead section. (RfC Nov 2018)

34. Refer to Ivana Zelníčková as a Czech model, with a link to Czechs (people), not Czechoslovakia (country). (Jan 2019)

35. Superseded by #49

Supersedes #7. Include in the lead: Trump has made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. The statements have been documented by fact-checkers, and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics. (RfC Feb 2019)

36. Superseded by #39

Include one paragraph merged from Health of Donald Trump describing views about Trump's psychology expressed by public figures, media sources, and mental health professionals who have not examined him. (June 2019) (paragraph removed per RfC Aug 2019 yielding consensus #39)

37. Resolved: Content related to Trump's presidency should be limited to summary-level about things that are likely to have a lasting impact on his life and/or long-term presidential legacy. If something is borderline or debatable, the resolution does not apply. (June 2019)

38. Do not state in the lead that Trump is the wealthiest U.S. president ever. (RfC June 2019)

39. Supersedes #21 and #36. Do not include any paragraph regarding Trump's mental health or mental fitness for office. Do not bring up for discussion again until an announced formal diagnosis or WP:MEDRS-level sources are provided. This does not prevent inclusion of content about temperamental fitness for office. (RfC Aug 2019, July 2021)

40. Include, when discussing Trump's exercise or the lack thereof: He has called golfing his "primary form of exercise", although he usually does not walk the course. He considers exercise a waste of energy, because he believes the body is "like a battery, with a finite amount of energy" which is depleted by exercise. (RfC Aug 2019)

41. Omit book authorship (or lack thereof) from the lead section. (RfC Nov 2019)

42. House and Senate outcomes of the impeachment process are separated by a full stop. For example: He was impeached by the House on December 18, 2019, for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress. He was acquitted of both charges by the Senate on February 5, 2020. (Feb 2020)

43. The rules for edits to the lead are no different from those for edits below the lead. For edits that do not conflict with existing consensus: Prior consensus is NOT required. BOLD edits are allowed, subject to normal BRD process. The mere fact that an edit has not been discussed is not a valid reason to revert it. (March 2020)

44. The lead section should mention North Korea, focusing on Trump's meetings with Kim and some degree of clarification that they haven't produced clear results. (RfC May 2020)

45. Superseded by #48

There is no consensus to mention the COVID-19 pandemic in the lead section. (RfC May 2020, July 2020) (Superseded by RfC Aug 2020)

46. Use the caption "Official portrait, 2017" for the infobox image. (Aug 2020, Jan 2021)

47. Do not mention Trump's net worth or Forbes ranking (or equivalents from other publications) in the lead, nor in the infobox. (Sep 2020)

48. Supersedes #45. Trump's reaction to the COVID-19 pandemic should be mentioned in the lead section. There is no consensus on specific wording, but the status quo is Trump reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic; he minimized the threat, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, and promoted false information about unproven treatments and the availability of testing. (Oct 2020, RfC Aug 2020)

49. Supersedes #35. Include in lead: Trump has made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politics. (Dec 2020)

50. Supersedes #17. The lead sentence is: Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician, media personality, and businessman who served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. (March 2021), amended (July 2021), inclusion of politician (RfC September 2021)

51. Include in the lead that many of Trump's comments and actions have been characterized as misogynistic. (Aug 2021 and Sep 2021)

52. Supersedes #23. The lead should contain a summary of Trump's actions on immigration, including the Muslim travel ban (cf. item 23), the wall, and the family separation policy. (September 2021)

53. The lead should mention that Trump promotes conspiracy theories. (October 2021)

54. Include in the lead that, quote, Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in U.S. history. (October 2021)

55. Regarding Trump's comments on the 2017 far-right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, do not wiki-link "Trump's comments" in this manner. (RfC December 2021)

56. Retain the content that Trump never confronted Putin over its alleged bounties against American soldiers in Afghanistan but add context. Current wording can be altered or contextualized; no consensus was achieved on alternate wordings. (RfC November 2021) Trump's expressions of doubt regarding the Russian Bounties Program should be included in some capacity, though there there is no consensus on a specific way to characterize these expressed doubts. (RfC March 2022)

57. Do not mention in the lead Gallup polling that states Trump's the only president to never reach 50% approval rating. (RfC January 2022)

58. Use inline citations in the lead for the more contentious and controversial statements. Editors should further discuss which sentences would benefit from having inline citations. (RfC May 2022, discussion on what to cite May 2022)

59. Do not label or categorize Trump as a far-right politician. (RfC August 2022)

60. Insert the links described in the RfC January 2023.

61. When a thread is started with a general assertion that the article is biased for or against Trump (i.e., without a specific, policy-based suggestion for a change to the article), it is to be handled as follows:

1. Reply briefly with a link to Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias.
2. Close the thread using {{archive top}} and {{archive bottom}}, referring to this consensus item.
3. Wait at least 24 hours per current consensus #13.
4. Manually archive the thread.

This does not apply to posts that are clearly in bad faith, which are to be removed on sight. (May 2023)

62. The article's description of the five people who died during and subsequent to the January 6 Capitol attack should avoid a) mentioning the causes of death and b) an explicit mention of the Capitol Police Officer who died. (RfC July 2023)

63. Supersedes #18. The alma mater field of the infobox reads: "University of Pennsylvania (BS)". (September 2023)

64. Omit the {{Very long}} tag. (January 2024)

65. Mention the Abraham Accords in the article; no consensus was achieved on specific wordings. (RfC February 2024)

Talk:Donald Trump/Current consensus

The edit notice at Talk:Donald Trump/Current consensus, says that Editors may only edit this page if there is consensus to do so, established by discussion. Please note, any disruption caused to this list will result in an immediate block., so to err on the safe side I will discuss it here. I would like to set the items that have been struck through a superseded to be <noinclude>ed. I don't think they need to be shown here, and to me its just distracting to try and follow what was superseded by what. The current consensus section should only show the current consensus, not the entire history of consensuses. At the same time, I want to make a minor adjustment to the formatting for superseded consensuses - currently, some of the # XYZ have the number struck through, and some don't - this should be standardized, and other minor formatting tweaks. I have made my changes at User talk:DannyS712/sandbox - see the differences here. Thoughts? --DannyS712 (talk) 20:22, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

• Thanks for discussing first.
• Striking through the whole thing including the number is fine with me.
• There is no need or requirement to "follow what was superseded by what"—editors generally know that stricken text may be safely ignored. The benefit of saving people the trouble of ignoring it would be about equal to the cost of making new arrivals wonder why there are gaps in the numbers. Leaving the superseded items may also help new arrivals understand how the consensus system works, and it improves transparency. I oppose <noinclude>ing them.
• What other minor formatting tweaks are you proposing? ―Mandruss ☎ 23:18, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

It's true that the list is getting long, and the stricken items are distracting, while being necessary for transparency. @DannyS712 and Mandruss: Please take a look at my alternate version in Danny's sandbox, using {{hide}} templates. — JFG ^talk 15:21, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

@JFG: I'm happy with the alternative you drafted. @Mandruss? --DannyS712 (talk) 16:10, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Ok, but I would like to hear more opinions. The proposal complicates the coding considerably and I have reservations about cost-benefit. We would end up with a situation in which only a few editors are able to correctly convert a normal entry to collapsed—and much of the cleaner-look benefit would be lost if this is not done with consistency. That's not a particularly egalitarian approach. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:13, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

Not to mention that new editors to the page in particular are far less likely to look at whats hidden before rehashing previous discussions, so we could end up with a spike in already-been-discussed material here as people propose before realizing that its already been discussed before. That being said, I can't prove that until we try this, so its an observation, not a concern, and therefore certainly not a reason to oppose the proposal (at least not officially at this point in time). TomStar81 (Talk) 19:08, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

@Mandruss: Converting a visible entry to a hidden entry is simply a matter of copying the appropriate code from a previous entry; that should be no bigger deal for anyone than performing the strikethrough + small-type comment we already use. @TomStar81: Actually it's good if new editors do not look at the hidden entries, because they represent consensus discussions that have been superseded by newer ones, or have become obsolete. They are only preserved for documenting the history of community decisions. — JFG ^talk 06:24, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

What's "simply a matter" for you and me is not so for everybody, or even most. That's why I hope for more opinions. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:53, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

@Mandruss: it doesn't need to be a simple matter for everyone or most, because the /current consensus page isn't edited much, and consensus items being superseded is even rarer. --DannyS712 (talk) 01:17, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

@DannyS712: It has been 14 days since JFG's proposal and, as far as we know, nobody else cares one way or the other. Go ahead. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:23, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

@Mandruss: I'll give it a bit more time, but without any other objections I'll make the changes --DannyS712 (talk) 01:30, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict)  Done — JFG ^talk 01:33, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Citations in lede

Is there a reason the lede of this article has no citations? Much of the content in the lede would benefit from citations, and it's strange that there are no references. SiliconRed (talk) 22:08, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Long-standing consensus at this article has it that the cost of citations in the lead (visual clutter) would exceed their benefit. Editors make an effort to ensure that the lead summarizes cited content in the body. More generally, I would argue that "unusual" does not equate to "strange" and is anything but a Bad Thing; rather, emphasis on consistency tends to ensure consistently mediocre content. It would be different if there were a community consensus that leads should have cites, but there is not one. The community has left this to our discretion, and we have exercised it. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:16, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

This makes a lot of sense, thank you for your thorough explanation and qualification. Would it be worth considering including citations for the lede elsewhere in the article as opposed to in the lede to solve the problem of visual clutter while also making each item in the lede verifiable? Even if there's no community consensus about ledes having cites, there is certainly consensus about writing on Wikipedia having cites. Still, I don't want to reopen a closed discussion--I'll be reviewing old discussions to see where this has come up before (I did not find any in a brief initial search). If there are threads you know of I would appreciate being pointed in the right direction. SiliconRed (talk) 00:54, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't recall a full-blown discussion all in one place—if there had been one, there would probably be an entry in our #Current consensus list. The subject has come up briefly several times in several years, always affirming the principle, and there's of course quite a bit of de facto local consensus in the fact that this has been consistently maintained for several years. If you wanted this to be such a "full-blown discussion all in one place", that wouldn't seem improper to me. I would oppose a change.
How would one go about "including citations for the lede elsewhere in the article"? ―Mandruss ☎ 01:20, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

Not sure how including citations elsewhere might work; I have never seen such a practice before, but I am open to suggestions & conversation about potential ideas and I'll certainly be thinking on it myself. Although I certainly respect the historical de facto consensus, I'm pushing the point as there are several parts of the lede which, despite an argument for them being common knowledge (which is very plausibly an argument for their inclusion sans-citation), jumped out at me as seeming to quote outside sources without actually referencing them. Examples include the line "Many of his comments and actions have been perceived as racially charged or racist" and the line "Commentators described his political positions as populist, protectionist, and nationalist," which raise potential concern for WP:WEASEL (they lack a "by whom?" and instead refer generally to comments). SiliconRed (talk) 01:30, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

At least some of those concerns—if valid—are properly addressed by changes to the prose, not by the addition of citations. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:34, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm generally opposed to having citations in the lede of any article, but most especially the fulsome biographies you often get with politicians. Citations in the lede of a US president are extremely rare. The most recent president with citations (and only a couple) is Jimmy Carter, and before that JFK, so it's been a long standing convention to avoid them. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:19, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

Scjessey—you're absolutely right. Looking back through other articles on politicians there is certainly a standing convention to avoid citations. Thanks for the context here. SiliconRed (talk) 00:31, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

User:Siliconred - where the lead is summarizing the body per WP:LEAD, cites should be in the body and are not repeated in lead. In some places the lead content is from TALK per the section Highlighted open discussions, and is not a summary of the content or have cites. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 00:11, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

This style article is where I should have looked before opening up this thread. Answers my initial concerns with the lack of citations in the lead and a thorough qualification of when they may or may not be necessary. Also, reminds me that the section before the table of contents is the "lead," not the "lede"; as per the style guide the first section of the article "is not a news-style lead or "lede" paragraph." Otherwise thanks all for the discussion and for clearing up my concerns! SiliconRed (talk) 00:31, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

How to detail the new findings presented by Attorney General William Barr to Congress?

Any ideas on how we should detail the findings here? Aviartm (talk) 21:12, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

No ideas before we see the findings and their coverage in reliable sources. Right now we know that Trump is exonerated (William Barr is the only authority here), and we can call the witch hunt a witch hunt in wiki-voice in the lead. The exonerations of Trump's associates aren't being reported as much as Trump's own exoneration by the DOJ so I'd say those don't belong. wumbolo ^^^ 22:31, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Wumbolo, except that Trump has not been exonerated on anything, and this "with hunt" resulted in 34 indictments, so there's that. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:36, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

There's not much to detail yet, and I think the fuller context will develop over the coming days. Trump has not been exonerated, but a few of the witches have been caught and dealt with.- MrX 🖋 22:41, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

[1] If the DOJ says that there is not enough evidence to establish a crime, Trump is exonerated. wumbolo ^^^ 22:52, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Wumbolo, no that's not at all how the legal system works. Not having evidence to press charges does not mean someone is innocent. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:09, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Ironically, Mueller wrote “While this report does not conclude that the president committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him”[2] I have no idea how Wumbolo missed that since it's all over the news.- MrX 🖋 23:54, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Lol.Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:12, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia is NOTACRYSTALBALL. I am not sure why we are even speculating what further investigations/persecutions will even occur. If the Special Counsel, which is the DOJ, finds that Trump did not collude with Russia (As it states here: The Special Counsel's investigation did not find that the Trump campaign or anyone associated with it conspired or coordinated with Russia in its efforts to influence the 2016 U.S. presidential election. As the report states: “[T]he investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities...the evidence does not establish that the President was involved in an underlying crime related to Russian election interference." And we already know that the letter does say "The Special Counsel states that “while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.” <-----However, this sentence is under the Obstruction of Justice section of the letter. This sentence does not include allegations of Russian collusion. Trump has been cleared on collusion but not on Obstruction of Justice. Aviartm (talk) 00:39, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Where did you get a copy of the Mueller report? O3000 (talk) 00:50, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

You know that there are ongoing investigations of Trump being conducted by the NY Attorney General, Southern District of New York, and various House committees, right? – Muboshgu (talk) 00:57, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Objective3000 & Muboshgu Never stated that I got it, but anyone that has been paying attention to the news has received or heard of the synopsis of the report. I am solely using Attorney General Barr's synopsis. That is it. Barr is the head of the DOJ. The Special Counsel is part of the DOJ. This is what the DOJ reported. And yes, Muboshgu, I know there are currently live investigations from NY AG, SDNY, House Committees, etc. However, currently, we are here to discuss the revealed findings of the Special Counsel, not what the NY AG finds, or what the SD of NY finds, or what the House Committees finds. Since, the SDNY investigation is looking into Trump's businesses, Inaugural Committee, etc.; NYAG is looking at Trump's projects over the years; House Committee is looking into obstruction of justice, yet that is dependent on what the DOJ finds and concludes; and as Chairman Nadler tweeted today: "In light of the very concerning discrepancies and final decision making at the Justice Department following the Special Counsel report, where Mueller did not exonerate the President, we will be calling Attorney General Barr in to testify before @HouseJudiciary in the near future." When those investigations release their findings, then we shall converse again in the future but those investigations are inconsequential to the Special Counsel's findings. It should only be appropriate to discuss today's findings and not speculate on future investigations' findings. So these other, separate investigations should not distract us from the only thing we are to be discussing about, the Department of Justice synopsis of the Special Counsel's final report.

Aviartm (talk) 02:29, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Just replying to what Muboshgu said above, "that's not at all how the legal system works. Not having evidence to press charges does not mean someone is innocent". Well, actually it does. In the USA, there is something called the presumption of innocence and according to WP:BLP Wikipedia believes in it too. The article should be edited based on the reported facts, not on some belief that the "truth is out there". This is about Robert Mueller, not Fox Mulder.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:05, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Actually, the precedent for any investigation that looks into potential obstruction by a president is that Congress decides whether or not there's anything actionable. For the Attorney General, a person appointed by the subject of the investigation no less, to give his opinion in this way is extremely unusual. Barr's short letter is a political statement designed to shape opinion on what the rest of the report means. -- Scjessey (talk) 11:24, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

The initial investigation into obstruction of justice started in the FBI and then moved into the Special Counsel very soon afterwards. And no, it is not unusual for the Attorney General to give his "opinion". It is DOJ protocol to do what the DOJ did. And it was more than just Barr who worked on the synopsis. Rosenstein did, DOJ associates as well, not just Barr. This is the consensus that the DOJ reached. Aviartm (talk) 12:18, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Regardless, presumption of innocence is still the rule to follow.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:38, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

"Presumption of innocence" is a very different thing from "exoneration". Presumption of innocence means whether we can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt; it says nothing about the person's actual innocence or guilt. Exoneration means actually proven or legally declared "factually innocent", something that occasionally happens when a case is dismissed or a conviction overturned. At this point we have Barr's statement that Mueller "did not find" that Trump or associates conspired or cooperated with the Russians. We do not have a statement that Mueller "found that they did not" conspire. Big difference. And of course on the obstruction charges, Mueller specifically did not exonerate Trump, and Barr/Rosenstein only concluded that they could not prove the case in a court of law. -- MelanieN (talk) 15:03, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Jack Upland I agree with you on that. On obstruction of justice, Trump is not exonerated for now as per the DOJ's findings. On Russian interference, they found no evidence of the Trump Campaign colluding/conspiring/coordinating with Russian entities to manipulate the election. Aviartm (talk) 15:52, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Impeachment efforts

This section is currently a copy of the lead to the main article, Efforts to impeach Donald Trump. As I pointed out there,[3] this text is out of date, most of it citing sources from 2017. In addition, there is a sentence about the 25th Amendment which is purely speculative. Clearly, the section as it stands has to go. Perhaps there is no need for a section on impeachment here, as no progress has been made so far.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:27, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes, it is speculation and this section should be removed. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 10:07, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

I would agree with removing it. Not only is it speculation, but it is massively out of date. It can be restored if there are actual efforts made in that direction - such as recommendations from the Judiciary Committee - but at this point, with Pelosi having virtually ruled it out and the Mueller report providing little or no support, that seems unlikely. I think it can be left out of this biography. However, we should find some place to put the "see also" reference to the main impeachment article. NOTE: Even though we three seem to agree, we must not remove it right now. Three people in the space of a few hours is not consensus. This is longstanding content, and we should wait a few days for more input before taking any action. -- MelanieN (talk) 14:52, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Odd as it may seem I am favor of keeping it in as there have been numerous higher level elected persons that have said everything from "we should impeach him" to "impeach the mother*^%*".[4] I think the level of hate mongering and vitriol that his opposition have had and in discussing impeachment are noteworthy. We just need to update this.--MONGO (talk) 15:13, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

I would think you could make that into one sentence (at the top of the "Investigations" section perhaps). As Melanie said, nothing much is happening, so it is misleading to have a section on it, and it is hard to update...--Jack Upland (talk) 19:35, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

I agree that we can do away with this section. The "efforts to impeach" page can be linked to, with an appropriately sized section, from the Presidency of Donald Trump article. Impeachment is not serious enough a possibility to mention here. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:40, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Attorney general: The Mueller report clears Trump campaign of collusion with Russia

Can we add this great fact on this article? Goodtiming8871 (talk) 10:08, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

References

No. Will only have Bill Barr's opinion on what the report says, not the report itself. -- Scjessey (talk) 11:12, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't operate on primary sources though. We're always taking some reliable source's opinion about an event. This is really no different. Cosmic Sans (talk) 12:10, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Of course we can, but it needs to be sourced to reliable secondary sources, i.e., news reports. TFD (talk) 12:06, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes you can. That is the DOJ's conclusion on the matter. Aviartm (talk) 12:18, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Just checked and I thought so, my edit yesterday already includes this fact. Go here. Go to 'Robert Mueller' and read the most recent, last paragraph. Aviartm (talk) 12:21, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Special counsel?

As a subheading under "Investigations", I don't think "Special counsel" is "more informative" than "Robert Mueller". "Special counsel" could mean anything. The subheading above names "James Comey", so why not name Mueller?--Jack Upland (talk) 18:39, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

How about Robert Mueller led Special Councel?--MONGO (talk) 20:20, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Personally, I think the best title would be "Special Counsel Robert Mueller's Investigation" Cosmic Sans (talk) 20:55, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

I agree. That's much better.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:09, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

I was the one who reverted it back to "special counsel". "Special counsel" could NOT mean anything, it is very specific, identifying the office conducting the investigation. I don't see why the name of the special counsel adds anything; in fact it detracts. It seems to assume that everyone knows who Robert Mueller is and what their role is; we should not so assume. And after all our article on the subject is called "Special counsel investigation"; it's not called "Robert Mueller investigation". The office is what is important, not the man. -- MelanieN (talk) 14:44, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Trump has repeatedly denied accusations of collusion and obstruction of justice

This is taken from the lead. I think it should simply say: "Trump denied accusations of collusion and obstruction of justice". Firstly, I think the tense of the sentence should be same as those around it. Secondly, why "repeatedly"? He was faced with serious accusations and denied them. Clearly he repeated that denial. Of course he did. So would anyone in that situation. Why is important to say "repeatedly"? Is it implying Trump's denials were excessive or frantic...???--Jack Upland (talk) 19:07, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Good point. I think we should leave out that unnecessary adverb. Aviartm (talk) 20:22, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

The other thing with the past perfect tense — "has repeatedly denied" — is that it suggests his denials were in the past and completed at some point in the past, i.e., has denied but no longer denies. Perhaps it would be better to say Trump "denies" because he hasn't stopped denying.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:03, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

I was the one who reinstated "repeatedly". I think that is important. If we just say "Trump denied" it sounds like he issued one statement once. In fact he has denied it ("NO COLLUSION!") virtually every time he has opened his mouth for the past year and a half. If we don't say "has repeatedly denied" we need to say something else to indicate how frequent - indeed constant - his denials have been. -- MelanieN (talk) 14:16, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Most people who are accused of serious crimes express that denial frequently.--Jack Upland (talk) 19:09, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Trump was yelling "NO COLLUSION", "WITCH HUNT"; "13 ANGRY DEMOCRATS" (who were mostly Republicans) daily even though Mueller hadn't accused him of anything. Even while in the Rose Garden with foreign leaders. Even before talking to major events. He's still doing it. I've never heard of anything approaching this. Surely we can afford the space of one adjective. O3000 (talk) 19:17, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Troubling levels of liberal bias in this article.

The difference between this article and the Hillary Clinton article is insane. Wikipedia cannot be THIS biased. Seriously, I made an account just to say that this is out of control. Editors, take a step back from whatever REALLY liberal viewpoint you have and just read the starting paragraphs on this Trump page and almost any page on any democrat. This has gone too far. I suggest letting other people save this page and allowing right leaning people to check your work before posting to remove your biases. Otherwise Wikipedia will be so far to the left that it will be useless for the common reader. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scotthart1 (talk • contribs) 01:18, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Scotthart1, please point out SPECIFIC things that you think are biased and we can address them. That is what would be most helpful. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:44, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

I'll chime in here. This following sentence is in the lead: "Many of his comments and actions have been perceived as racially charged or racist." That type of defamatory sentence doesn't belong in the lead section. It's a vague statement about the subjective perceptions of unnamed people without any sort of citation, context, or rebuttal. It's basically character assassination, as these days calling someone racist is worse than calling someone a murderer. Rreagan007 (talk) 03:12, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Rreagan007, when he said, about Mexican immigrants, "They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists"--do you think those words were "perceived" as "racially charged", or were they just plain racist? Drmies (talk) 03:16, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Drmies Since "Mexican" isn't a race, that statement is neither of those things. Rreagan007 (talk) 03:55, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

"Perceived" is subjective. And the answer is yes they were according to the sources. I find it odd when people call objective facts liberal bias. I don't believe any other president has behaved how this one has, which is probably why his article looks different. His ability to blatantly lie and insult as political strategy is unmatched. Teammm ^talk
_email 04:21, 26 March 2019 (UTC) Teammm ^talk
_email 04:19, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

The bias is in what information you choose to include (and where and how you include it) and what information you exclude. Do you perceive the following statement to be racist: "I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races … I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race." And, if so, should we say in the lead of the Abraham Lincoln article that he made racist statements? Rreagan007 (talk) 07:05, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

I would support calling Lincoln a racist.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:07, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

In the article lead section? Rreagan007 (talk) 07:17, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

I would support putting it in the Pledge of Allegiance.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:36, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

I would support leaving Abraham Lincoln out of discussions about Wikipedia articles about Donald Trump. ―Mandruss ☎ 07:21, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Teammm, I've often heard that the truth has a liberal bias. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:29, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

I think liberal bias can be seen in the responses to the Mueller report, which attempt to sugar-coat this bitter pill for Democrats. Of course, this doesn't really help the Democrats' cause; it just means they're in denial. But it's still bias.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:07, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Jack Upland, you mean the responses to the Barr letter? Because we don't know what the Mueller Report says yet. I'm more concerned by the right wing response that is essentially echoing what Trump is tweeting, which is, unsurprisingly, not factual. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:14, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

That's exactly the kind of denialism that I'm talking about.--Jack Upland (talk) 19:21, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Jack Upland, no, there's no denial on my part. Mueller submitted a report based on his two-year investigation which found evidence of Russian interference and obstruction of justice, without coming to conclusions on whether or not charges should be pressed, leaving that to Barr (and Rosenstein). Barr (and Rosenstein) chose not to press charges. Now, it's up to the House and attorneys in DC, SDNY, and the NY AG office to see what happens next. What part of that is inaccurate? – Muboshgu (talk) 19:38, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

I've gotten to the point where my eyes tend to glaze over when I see comments like The difference between this article and the Hillary Clinton article is insane. For about the hundredth time, Donald Trump is not Hillary Clinton, the body of reliable sources does not say similar things about them in similar quantities, and it truly would show bias—and violate Wikipedia policy—if Wikipedia did. This has been affirmed at this article and many others time and time again. Neutrality looks like bias to those who don't recognize their own bias—and/or don't understand Wikipedia content policy. It's notable that this article does not use any form of the word "lie" in wiki voice, despite the fact that many, many of the most respected relliable sources do just that when talking about Trump, and often. So which direction is this bias? ―Mandruss ☎ 07:37, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

And bias doesn't look like bias for those who don't recognise their own bias. I remember having arguments with editors who said that Trump wouldn't last six months. Now they're certainly that he'll be impeached or lose the next election. And they edit accordingly. Trump is a historical figure. Nero, Hitler, and Lincoln are not wiped from time because we say harsh things about them. If you want to defeat Trump you should register to vote, or speak to the Russians. An encyclopedia is not an appropriate tool for political protest.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:49, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

That goes both ways, and it has no connection to policy. If you want to challenge the enormous standing consensus about Trump-related RS, better get busy developing that case. I'm not going to have much more to say in this discussion until you return with your case, as it would be pointless and probably WP:FORUM. If you believe that said consensus is only the result of Trump-haters having the numerical majority, I would submit that complaining about that here isn't going to change anything. ―Mandruss ☎ 07:58, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

If we want this article to meet the FA level of quality achieved at the Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama articles then of course we make comparisons between how each is written. Why wouldn't we? Those articles are featured leveled articles and this one is not.--MONGO (talk) 14:31, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm not really complaining: just pointing out facts. Just because you're enormous standing doesn't overshadow the facts. I'm not interested in concocting some convoluted cockamamie claptrap certified by Wikipedia's plastic legion of protocol drones. Liberal bias doesn't achieve anything here. Reliable sources aren't really reliable if they said Trump wouldn't be the candidate, wouldn't win, and wouldn't survive his first term, and wouldn't survive his second. This is fantasy, and I didn't think Wikipedia was a pornography site.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:33, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

There's too much conservative bias in this discussion, and in the article. People who have conservative bias can't see it because they're conservatively biased. I say this because an encyclopedia is not an appropriate tool for political protest. I'm just pointing out facts.- MrX 🖋 11:41, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

• Muboshgu gave the correct response to the OP immediately: please point out SPECIFIC things that you think are biased and we can address them. In all the ensuing discussion since, only one sentence has been pointed out, and it is very well documented. Indeed, there’s an entire article on the subject. O3000 (talk) 12:03, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
• I'm generally of the belief that the sentence should stay. As noted, there's ample sourcing for the statement. The only changes I'd consider would be possibly adding "nativism" in addition to racism, and qualifying the statement that it refers to 21st century standards of racism. pbp 14:30, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Race has been a broad term for quite a while. The 1933 version of the OED includes as a definition: “A tribe, nation, or people regarded as of common stock.” Also, “A set of tribes, or peoples forming a distinct ethnic stock." The earliest example is in the 17th Century referring to the British race. O3000 (talk) 14:51, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

You sort of missed my point. Yes, race has been a broad term for awhile, but there is much more public pressure against being racist now than there was in, say, 1858 or 1933. I was in part replying to the "Lincoln was racist" claim above. pbp 15:55, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

WP:NOTAFORUM folks. And the race thing has been discussed ad nauseum already.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:37, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

If there is a better place to bring these questions up than this article make it know where would that be. I do not intend to clutter this page. Nor do I intend to use the wrong place for this conversation. The point of my post is that I am a layman and when I found this site I was struck by the sheer levels of bias within it. I made an account last night to bring this to the attention of the editors. People reading this site and looking to this site for information should not be expected to have protect themselves against the level of bias. Wikipedia is relied upon by the average person to provide information about our world within it and the seems to be an entrenched liberal group within the editors that want to render this site useless for political information. If you require specific examples here, I can show some.Scotthart1 (talk) 17:13, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Scotthart1, no, this is the right place to discuss the Donald Trump article. The issue is that what you might perceive to be bias, we perceive as sourced and factual. We have come to WP:CONSENSUS on many of the things that are in this page. #Highlighted open discussions lists over 30 such consensuses (consensii?). That doesn't mean it's perfect, hardly. There are surely things that can be improved. But, we need SPECIFIC examples of areas of improvement. Just saying the whole page is biased doesn't really help. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:31, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

I would request that this section be moved then to a place with more room. I have examples, but they would take up the entire page. However; for the sake of time I will state that the intro is the wrong place to put so many topics. Additionally, there is no nuance in the topics presented. Only one side seems to be represented. This is not up to wikipedia's standards.Scotthart1 (talk) 17:54, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Thus far, you have added 2,046 characters to this page without providing any example of bias. This is not an effective method of gaining consensus. O3000 (talk) 18:04, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Scotthart1 If you think your examples will take up too much space (which I don't mind nor will others I think), use your User Page if you want. There, you can add as much detail as you wish to show us. Aviartm (talk) 18:57, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Let's keep discussion in one place. Besides, that could be removed as a political screed if left up too long. O3000 (talk) 19:05, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Clinton isn`t president..has nothing to do with this article.2600:1702:2340:9470:F587:4992:BFF5:185C (talk) 18:53, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Well Donald Trump ran against Hillary Clinton in 2016, so to not mention Hillary at all in this article would be a major omission. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:13, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Scotthart1, the intro is meant to summarize the key points of the article, and that's for every article. See Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section for more on that. These article talk pages have infinite space. Maybe you could create a subsection in this section for the examples you have. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:12, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

I'll start off with single examples to allow for more discussion. " His campaign received extensive free media coverage." This implies that the media coverage was helpful and positive. 90% was anti-Trump. This is misdirection at best if not lying by omission.Scotthart1 (talk) 19:50, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Scotthart1, okay, that seems like a good place to start. He did receive A LOT of free media coverage, as CNN and other cable news networks would often break away from whatever they were doing to air Trump's campaign rallies. There are sources that estimate the value of this coverage: [5][6][7]. You are right that not all of the coverage was positive, a lot was negative. Where did you get the 90% figure, though? Even if it was that negative, there is the old adage: "there is no such thing as bad publicity". Trump has made a living off of publicity, positive or negative. If anything, it seems that Trump has thrived on making an enemy of the press. That, I think, is the point in that statement. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:59, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

yes he received free media coverage because they thought he was the easiest candidate for hillary to beat SCAH (talk) 20:18, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

SCAH, no, he received the free media coverage because it was sensational. People who sings the media is biased either to the left or to the right are incorrect. The media is biased towards sensationalism and corporate profits. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:41, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

For the first https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/mar/6/trump-coverage-still-90-negative-says-new-study/. Second, negative coverage is not helpful to a candidate and old adages do not excuse the lack of explanation with the article. There is a difference in good and bad coverage and the lack of positive coverage is largely to blame for the continued belief of lies about Trump amounst people. Case in point the bizarre belief that the Muller probe was in any was justified or had anything to find. The lack of coverage of the particulars allowed for a story to grow in spite of the truth. For example: In the tower meeting between Trump's associates and son and a Russian lawyer the media never mentioned broadly that the lawyer met with and was working with Fusion GPS. https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/susan-jones/fusion-gps-glenn-simpson-dined-russian-lawyer-after-her-meeting-trump-tower ||| https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/08/veselnitskaya-trump-tower-fusion/ Scotthart1 (talk) 20:13, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

The reaason Trump's possibly racist comments are significant compared with Lincoln for example is that they have received extensive coverage in proportion to overall coverage of him. It is important because it is part of the strategy he used to build a loyal core following. It is impossible to understand Trump's political success without mentioning his appeal to racism. TFD (talk) 20:20, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Scotthart1, I would have no rpoblem adding something about the level of negative coverage Trump has received. However, that Washington Times piece with the 90% figure is referencing the Media Research Center, which is partisan. We should find a nonpartisan source of that information. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:52, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

TFD you are arguing in bad faith.(I might disagree with him but I will admit that he does not mean me harm with this I take the statement back) Did Obama appeal to black supremacists to win? Did Clinton appeal to misandrists for votes? Just because someone advocates for people does mean they hate anyone. Donald Trump can point out that rural poor white Americans have gotten the short end of the stick while and should be able to voice this without claims that he is racist for saying that. Additionally, the entire argument that he said racist things or is racist is the result of people having a negative opinion of him based on negative media coverage. Which was unprecedented and ridiculously unwarranted.Scotthart1 (talk) 20:28, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Please assume good faith WP:AGF. Trump argued against various peoples. That’s not the same as advocating for. And no, the entire argument that he has said racist things and taken racist actions is because he has said things considered racist and taken actions considered racist, going back decades. O3000 (talk) 20:42, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't think it would be possible for any politician to directly address the problems and complaints of white Americans without being called a racist. Trump in his speeches is always talking about the black unemployment rate, the hispanic unemployment rate, and the female unemployment rate. Never once has he ever referenced the white unemployment rate (or the male unemployment rate for that matter). I have never once heard Trump in his speeches explicitly reference white Americans. If he did, that would instantly be called racist. But politicians routinely talk about the challenges facing black Americans or hispanic Americans or native Americans. Rreagan007 (talk) 20:46, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Racist is a term that has a legal definition and Trump has not reached that definition. If you disagree give an example of a racist thing Trump has said not what people have stated that he said. Scotthart1 (talk) 20:50, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Scotthart1, nobody thinks Trump is racist because "people do not like him" People think he's racist because of his actions, such as his housing discrimination against black people in the 1970s and his op ed against the Central Park Five in the Central Park jogger case in 1989, not to mention all the things he's said about Mexicans being rapists and drug dealers, and African nations being "shitholes". – Muboshgu (talk) 20:54, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

And racism is not a legal term. And Trump's words are recorded. See: Racial views of Donald Trump. O3000 (talk) 20:59, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Calling illegals for what they are is not racist. And in the speech, right after that famous line..."But I speak to border guards and they tell us what we’re getting. And it only makes common sense. It only makes common sense. They’re sending us not the right people." Facts cannot be racist. And calling a country a "shithole" based on whatever factor Trump used or implied does not entail race or racism. That is not racism. You can call any country a shithole on something and you would not be wrong if there is general agreement on your position or something that ought to be changed should be changed. And just because you use a certain word to describe the state of a country does not imply racism. Aviartm (talk) 21:57, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Gaining empirical evidence from a few guards is not the way to gain an understanding of a complex situation. Claiming that Mexico is “sending” people here is completely devoid of evidence of any kind. Humans or may not commit illegal acts. No human is illegal. In any case, we use RS, not our own synthesis. O3000 (talk) 22:05, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

I agree it is a bad way to gain insight on a small amount of border agents. Wikipedia does and must "adhere strictly to all applicable laws in the United States." And I am not here to argue whether a human is illegal or not based on your opinion. Based on what every country does, you are "illegal" if you divert from the country's proper method of immigration. Aviartm (talk) 22:20, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Aviartm, people cannot be "illegal". People are people. Calling them "illegals" is racist, I think. He called black countries (African and Haiti) "shitholes". That's racist. If he had an actual criticism of these countries to criticize them on, that would be something else. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:05, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Muboshgu Well, we have countries so if you do not follow their procedure of immigration, you are "illegal". Even if you were white and illegally crossing a border, you would be an "illegal". Just because a country south has Hispanic populations does not make it any more racist. Like I said previously, facts cannot be racist. And for the shithole comment, that was behind doors and remarks on that matter is essentially unknown but as stated, whatever factor Trump was complaining about is not racist. I'm sure you have complained about things countries have done or have, and I know I have, but complaining about it is not racism. Aviartm (talk) 23:38, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

And Mexico is "sending" people here as immigrants? No, that's not at all how immigration works. When your criticisms are all against Hispanics, Muslims, and Black people, don't be surprised if people consider you to be racist. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:42, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

The "Mexico is not sending their best" comment is obviously wrong. Most likely a euphemism at best. But that does not detract the fact that if you enter a country not through their procedure of travel/migration, you are "illegal entry". And again, facts cannot be racist.

A non-citizen is an alien if they enter illegally they are an illegal alien. There are places that are shitholes. SCAH (talk) 22:29, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

No human being is illegal. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:40, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Well, some of these folk are accused of illegally crossing the border. Some asked for refugee status, and were blocked, illegally. Another person is accused of running a fraudulent charity and a fraudulent “university” (both shut down by the gov’t); but I wouldn’t refer to him as an “illegal”. First I’ve actually heard of the word used as a noun. And in this case, almost exclusively in ref to Hispanics. Sounds extremely racist to me to refer to a human as less than human. Kinda the definition of racist. But, that’s just me. In any case, we uses RS. O3000 (talk) 22:54, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

And RS conforms to what Trump says if they do it honestly which makes them "reliable". And to describe someone as an "illegal" for unlawful entry into a country is just a societal interpretation of the action. "Sounds extremely racist to me to refer to a human as less than human," no where does it imply racism. If another country was in Mexico's place hypothetically and their largest demographic was white, it still would not be racist to call them a "illegal". I'm done. Aviartm (talk) 23:38, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

No your page on Racial_views_of_Donald_Trump is not accurate and none of the things that Trump said or did rise to the level of racism. At all. And yes racism is a legal term, there are standards for prosecution on hate crimes. Which he has not risen to. A large group of people thinking something does not make it true and yes, people think he is racist because they do not like him. Because of the media.Scotthart1 (talk) 21:07, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict)We use reliable sources, not your opinions. And, this is not the correct place to argue about sources. That would be WP:RSN. O3000 (talk) 21:13, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Huzzah I finally got to correct my grammar on my previous edit! Too many edits going by. To 03000's point the use of biased sources is key to the problem with this page, yet I can see that an argument on this would clutter this page. I disagree with the use of certain sources and that pertains to this page. How do Wikipedia's rules on the matter run?Scotthart1 (talk) 21:24, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Scotthart1, certain sources are considered reliable and others aren't. Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources has an incomplete list of them. We disagree with the use of some of the sources you've presented, such as the Washington Times, CNS News, and Daily Caller, which I and many others consider to be right-wing partisan. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:43, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

This is going to be the last edit for a bit as I have work; I do not agree with the use of the sources Wikipedia claims as reliable and recent events have pointed out their limitations. In general the use of left wing sources is a problem due to their financial interest in finding unflattering things about Trump. I have refrained from direct examples on the racial views page due to it being another page entirely. On this page the stance that he said racist things about Hispanics is cited to an article on the New York times that did not even closely resemble what this page states. "Many of his comments and actions have been perceived as racially charged or racist." is not even half of the story.Scotthart1 (talk) 21:56, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Scotthart1, we don't use left wing sources. Pages like Daily Kos are not RS. Sites like the New York Times, which the right believes is left wing, are actually not. And therein lies the heart of our disagreement. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:43, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Scotthart1, people believe the media? That's news to me. Perhaps he has not committed any hate crimes. That is a legal definition. "Racism" is not a legally defined term. Again, bring up anything SPECIFIC on the "racial views" page that you think is inaccurate. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:42, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Is it just me, or does this thread have a ton of WP:NOTAFORUM vio on all sides? Some of you know better. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:03, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Not just you and many of us are guilty in an attempt to stop illogical (as well as irrelevant) arguments. We need to stick to RS, and anyone that doesn’t like a source that is highly regarded needs to either stop or go to WP:RSN, which I hate to mention as it will be a time drain. O3000 (talk) 23:10, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Final paragraph of lead section

I have a problem with the inconsistency between stating that "the Justice Department appointed Robert Muller" and then later in the same paragraph saying that "Barr (along with Deputy AG Rod Rosenstein) then determined there was insufficient evidence of obstruction". Rosenstein was the one who appointed Muller, but by stating it was "the Justice Department" it appears to be an effort to give that decision more authoritative weight, while qualifying the latter statement appears to be an effort to discount the decision. That inconsistency is a subtle form of bias. The first sentence should say "Deputy AG Rod Rosenstein appointed Robert Muller" to maintain consistency within the paragraph and to avoid the appearance of bias. Rreagan007 (talk) 20:36, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Rreagan007, I can't object to this being standardized. Rosenstein represented the DOJ in appointing Mueller, just as Barr is representing the DOJ in that letter. "Name the person both times, or name the department both times" seems like a reasonable suggestion to me. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:06, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Because Sessions recused himself, Rosenstein was serving as acting attorney general when he appointed Mueller. He was not acting AG when he signed-off on Barr's letter. soibangla (talk) 23:21, 26 March 2019 (UTC)