User talk:Jimbo Wales

Editing environment getting better?

I think there are at least two worlds of Wikipedia regarding the question posed in a previous section, "Is Wikipedia getting better?". One is the reader's world, where the content of the encyclopedia is the consideration. This is the world that has been discussed in a previous section. Another is the world of the editors, where the editing environment is important.

Is the Wikipedia editing environment getting better? --Bob K31416 (talk) 21:05, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

This will depend on the particular constellation of articles and personalities that each editor deals with. I think it reached a trough a few years ago and has improved slightly (or at least not deteriorated) since. Or maybe I've just gotten used to all the bullshit. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:58, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

• In 2006, when I first started editing, there was a completely different atmosphere in most of Wikipedia. There were literally hundreds of editors who would roam around and try to help newbie or other editors format their inputs correctly, correct minor problems in random articles, and cooperate in a collegial manner in the different wiki-projects. There were some exceptions of course, notably in some of the environmental, political, scientology, and Israel-Palestine articles. However, hardly any of that altruistic cooperation takes place anymore. Now, if a newbie editor makes a mistake in editing an article, it usually either gets reverted or stays broken. If you leave a notice on a wiki-project talk page or admin notice board asking for help, half the time or more it goes unanswered. The Featured Article and other article improvement forums (like DYK) now get much less attention and participation than they used to. WP is now, for the most part, a colder, bleaker place to edit. Cla68 (talk) 01:23, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Given your extensive block log for a variety of unpleasant behaviors, you may wish to reflect on how you may have personally been a part of helping to make your own experience of Wikipedia "colder and bleaker".--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:29, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

My experience is that sometimes Cla68 himself makes editing Wikipedia an extremely unpleasant experience for other editors. I would assume that his extensive block log is an indication that my experience with Cla68 is not unique. Bill Huffman (talk) 18:40, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Any curious onlookers who would be interested in "who is this Bill Huffman, and what does he represent to the Wikipedia community", would be advised to see this discussion that probably explains why he is so angry at Cla68 -- Cla68 was largely responsible for pointing out that Huffman was abusing multiple accounts on Wikipedia in order to push his personal agenda, leading to his "retirement", although how "retired" has he really been? Anyway, chalk up Jimmy on the same side as a multi-account abuser, aligned against a nearly decade-long worker on outstanding content. - BajorRules (talk) 23:46, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

I'd feel a lot more sympathy for @Cla68:'s grievances, which I see go back centuries, if not for the fact that he 1) invoked the media in an attempt to intimidate other editors, and 2) he is a paid editor who was advertising for work on his user page, taking down the notice a week ago because he "doesn't have time to do this anymore," and I don't see any disclosure of employers. I've asked him who he's worked for[1] and in response I hear crickets. Coretheapple (talk) 13:25, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Jimbo's and Bill Huffman's posts exemplify the problem. Cla68's post is not aggressive, uncivil or inappropriate. It is an informed response to a legitimate question. But Jimbo and Bill Huffman have not responded to the post on its merits but used it as an opportunity to attack Cla68. And even that is a beat up, Cla68 has been blocked for a few months over an eight year editing history. And as we all know some admin, like some police, use their powers to bully and intimidate. Shame on Jimbo and Bill Huffman, they do know better but they don't care.MOMENTO (talk) 01:29, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Jimmy and Bill are in the right of it, in my recent experience, given just this horseshit comment at ArbCom which was subsequently partially redacted by the ArbCom clerk. Given the block record, and based on that diff and the posturing, sanctimonious comment by Cla above, I urge an immediate indef block of Cla68. Enough is enough, for cryin' out loud. And bravo to Jimmy and Bill for telling it like it is! Jusdafax 15:41, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Notice, journalists who are watching this page, that my statement was responded to with ad hominem responses instead of addressing the substance of my argument. Cla68 (talk) 00:00, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

(ec - note the comment above has been refactored) Cla68, given your above-cited, partially redacted bad faith ArbCom comment, found to be a "personal attack" by the ArbCom clerk, your original statement above is revealed for what you accuse other editors of: trolling. Obvious to anyone, journalist or not, is the fact that you fail to address the "uncomfortable truth" regarding the substance of my diff. And now, your attempt to hold editors here hostage to "journalists who are watching this page" is breathtaking in audacity in and scope; you seemingly expect us to fear you on this basis. I again call on an admin to indef block you at once as you have patently exhausted the patience of both Jimmy and the community. Note to those with the flag: does it get any clearer than this? Jusdafax 00:28, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Back to my original point, as anyone can see from the list of Featured Articles on my user page, I used to be heavy kool-aid drinker on WP. I thought it was the greatest thing ever. The Battle of the Coral Sea article, for example, took me about 50 hours of work, at least, to get done. I even took vacation time from work to complete it. I've gradually become disillusioned with WP over time as I explained above. It's just not a pleasant place anymore and the response to my original post in this thread helps drive home that point better than anything else I could have said. Cla68 (talk) 00:51, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Cla68, So why are you still here? By the way, calling current editors Wikipediots while complaining about ad hominem attacks doesn't present a compelling argument. NE Ent 01:38, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

I believe you mean that criticizing others for using ad hominems while using them myself doesn't constitute a compelling argument that ad hominems are wrong? If so, you're right. However, it still doesn't change the fact that they didn't address my original argument. So, since they didn't, I could respond to them however I wanted to because they handn't yet made a logical counter-argument. If they respond with something other than a logical fallacy, which Wikipedians, in my experience, have a hard time doing, then I could respond with a logical response myself. I'm still waiting... Cla68 (talk) 01:57, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

You didn't present an argument. You presented your opinion which is "correct" is the sense that it's your opinion, but there's no particular reason to believe it correct or universal. The current magic words indicate {{NUMBEROFACTIVEUSERS}} 121,501 {{NUMBEROFARTICLES}} 6,824,132 {{NUMBEROFADMINS}} 859; what that indicates to me is the scope of Wikipedia exceeds any individuals ability to grok. Your Wikipedia is different that my Wikipedia is different than Jimbo's. It's unclear what exactly you are waiting for; it's been my experience that unnecessarily insulting and disparging people and the institutions they believe is unlikely to get any reasonably positive response; in other words, what goal are you trying to achieve by posting here? NE Ent 02:32, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Actually, rereading Jimbo's response, it looks like he's saying to me, "You're right but it's your fault." Cla68 (talk) 03:17, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

"Journalists who are watching this page"? Seriously? Coretheapple (talk) 19:25, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Jusdafax, it's a general wiki to rule to render unto arbcom what is arbcom's. Given a clerk as already refactored Cla68's comment, it's highly unlikely an administrator is going to indef them in response to a posting here, and very likely such a block would be flipped. In theory, you could argue for a site ban at WP:AN, but that's highly unlikely to happen, too. Best to move on. NE Ent 01:38, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Well FA and DYK are get less attention in part because they have become little walled gardens of people competing for 'credit', toxic environments where the goal is to get more points than the opponent. Offputting for someone who is collaborative rather than competitive. The point of a FA or a DYK appearing should be that the article itself has improved or is of a high standard, not who gets the credit. The previous promotion issues and ongoing quality problems at DYK illustrate this the most. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:12, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

I can't comment on what Wikipedia was like a few years ago. The impression I get now is that when an established editor makes a mistake or unintentionally gets into a dispute, bad faith is often assumed and they are treated in a rude and uncivil manner, regardless of how tiny or innocent their mistakes were. It seems that editors are more likely to be polite and civil towards newbies who have just written an article advertising their cat, when in fact being polite and civil should be applied universally. --Rubbish computer 10:45, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

(ec)Having been editing Wikipedia for about 10 years, I've seen a number of changes. But I don't think a decline in the environment for editors is one of them. I have noticed that most people who complain about a growing toxic environment around here are editors who spend more of their time participating in various dramas than in actual editing of articles. Deli nk (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:22, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

@Deli nk:I guess you weren't talking to me, but I wouldn't say it's gotten worse, as I wouldn't know. Apologies if I sound like I'm moaning in my above post. Rubbish computer 13:36, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

I was making a general comment in response to the original "Is the Wikipedia editing environment getting better?" question. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply anything about you or your comment. Deli nk (talk) 14:55, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

@Deli nk:It's fine, I didn't think you were, anyway. Rubbish computer 15:36, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

I would like to comment on the extent to which those holding preconceived biases are unwilling to rationally survey the reliable sources as opposed to accusing others of misconduct. I have been accused of misrepresenting a body of literature as conclusive simply because I was unaware of an inconclusive reliable source from several years ago. I hope as a community we are able to grow into a nurturing, caring, polite group instead of remaining bogged down in accusatory urges. EllenCT (talk) 13:16, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Some things are definitely better. Edits save faster, the wikilove feature means that lots of people now thank me for fixing typos where once I wondered if anyone noticed; I can upload fifty photos on commons more easily than I used to be able to upload ten. Vandalfighting bots and edit filters have reduced the amount of vandalism that requires manual intervention. But not everything is positive. The tension between the WMF and the rest of the community in the last four years or so seems far worse than it did before. There are also tensions within the volunteer community. Template bombing has replaced much of the collaboration. Revert unsourced has largely replaced <citation needed>. Spam is rising, possibly in proportion to our audience size. There is a growing wikigeneration gulf between the admins and those who started editing in the last four or five years. ϢereSpielChequers 14:16, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

"Revert unsourced has largely replaced <citation needed>." I've noticed this as well. Is that a reflection of a more confrontational editing environment, less tolerance towards unsourced material appearing in articles, a recognition that a cn tag is likely to stay there until the material is removed in the future, or something else? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:57, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

As an administrator that regularly patrols AIV, I've noticed a significant increase in reports (inappropriate in my opinion) there for editors whose only offense is adding unsourced content. I'm concerned that too many regular editors are starting to view unreferenced content as vandalism. -- Ed (Edgar181) 17:12, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

While I seldom revert for anything not obviously out of whack I do have pretty strong opinions on unsourced content. Wikipedia is a reference work and few of us are subject matter experts in all of the areas which we edit. If there is not a source or reference there is no way to vet the material for accuracy and Wikipedia is useful only in relation to its reliability. We teach Bold, Revert, Discuss and that is what the bulk of editors will do if they have doubts. The person who is adding the material should be able to come up with a good source if asked. If they can not then, well.... the material should not be in Wikipedia per WP:V. Whether this process makes the editing environment better or worse depends on how willing editors are to engage with each other.

Since most drama comes when people are discussing whether the sourcing is adequate and there is more than enough drama dealing with that. My guess is after engaging repeatedly on WP:RS most editors are likely to be disinclined to engage in extensive conversation when there are no sources. Jbh^Talk 18:26, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

The BRD essay itself says: "BRD does not encourage reverting, but recognizes that reverts will happen" and WP:Reverting says: "revert vandalism on sight, but revert an edit made in good faith only after careful consideration", (emphasis mine). To habitually revert non-contentious content by removing the content instead of requesting a citation fails the "fundamental principle" of assuming that editors' edits and comments are made in good faith, and places the cart before the horse by answering a Bold edit with a revert in cases where another Bold edit, often called WP:SOFIXIT, is the better practice. It is tantamount to "a lazy mans load" with regard to building encyclopedic content; making the latter much harder to achieve while belying the good counsel of the aforementioned which wholly encourages an opposite approach as better, indeed even easier. Consider what would likely have come of this content if I had not observed the edit on my watchlist, Gave the answer I believe our guidelines suggest, and followed through with a demonstration of how nicely our best practices conform with our goals. If my interpretation here is wrong, I hope to have made the best of my error. Cheers, and do correct me now.--John Cline (talk) 21:10, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

I suspect the issue of reverting unsourced info on sight is one we are going to have to resolve with an RFC. While I have a preference for the old citation needed tag, moving to either extreme would be better than the current mess. It simply isn't fair on the thousands of newbies who are bitten because our de facto rules on sourcing are stricter than our published ones. ϢereSpielChequers 23:26, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

I guess I made the assumption of a) seeing if the edit made sense based on your knowledge of the subject b) seeing if you could source it yourself c) assessing the editor who made the edit as well as how well the material was written (proper English, proper use of subject specific terms etc) and whether it had been integrated into the text of the article in a way that showed the person who put it there had a clue about the subject. All of those things should go into figuring out whether you revert. In the end you must decide whether you think the new material a benefit to the article, if you do not think it is based on what you know and can find out or if you do not have a clue to make the judgement. If you both have a clue about the subject matter and are not convinced the edit is beneficial you should probably revert. If you are familiar with the editor who made the edit you review or you know they are a regular contributor to the content area it is best to ask about it rather than revert.

However, most of the time unsourced material is not added by well established editors familiar with the topic area or by drive by subject matter experts. Most of the time it is added by POV pushers or new/inexperienced editors. Both of which might have something good to contribute. That is why you should engage them on a talk page to explain why you just reverted your edit. Or, if you are lazy, you can probably get a 80-90% 'right call' rate by simply reverting unsourced additions and that is my guess of why it happens so frequently. Jbh^Talk 00:57, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Just a dichotomy, eh? You were lucky! The decision process just got a tad more complicated. — not really here discuss 04:43, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Ed, I suspect AIV is used because ANI seems like overkill in many cases. The problem is particularly acute with TV shows and genre-warring, with editors ignoring all requests for sources and simply plowing on for weeks/months. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 04:08, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

@NeilN: I know exactly what you're talking about. Those types of persistent, disruptive, uncommunicative editors should be reported to AIV or the targeted pages should be reported to RFPP. But lately I've seen cases that are not like that: a handful of unsourced, but good faith, edits is all it takes to get reported to AIV sometimes. That's where my concern lies. -- Ed (Edgar181) 13:43, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

• I agree that there are some articles in which editors have a solid lock on the subject matter, and in which not just new editors but different points of view are treated with hostility. Once not long ago I was summoned by RfC bot to comment on an RfC as to whether a well-known deceased actor should have an infobox. I opined yes, Oh no! Heresy! I was immediately jumped and pounded down by the editors controlling the page. Then I noticed that the RfC was prematurely closed by one of the editors opposing the infobox! Now in such a situation I could either go to ANI or just get the hell out of there, and I chose to do so. I have no idea if this kind of situation is getting worse or better but yes, there are some "no go zones" in Wikipedia and I blundered into one there. Coretheapple (talk) 18:50, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

  That particular dumpster fire has been burning since at least 2007, and probably earlier, FWIW (with atrocities on both sides, as may be expected of anything that long-running). Choess (talk) 03:16, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

  It's by far the stupidest discussion I've ever encountered, and I've seen some bad ones. Coretheapple (talk) 15:21, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

• I think it's got better in some respects. There is now a clear division of labour and governance between administrators and those who just want to contribute content (the usual culprits notwithstanding). The main respect in which it's got worse are the lack of content editors, at least in my area. I tried to make improvements to Free will when I returned, but it was just crickets. It's difficult to edit when there is no sounding board. Peter Damian (talk) 09:19, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Peter Damian, The crickets may be a sign that other editors thought your work was acceptable and didn't need comment. Note the reverts of some of the other editors' contributions after your edits in May 2015. So there doesn't seem to be a shortage of editors there who will react if they don't think an edit is acceptable. --Bob K31416 (talk) 14:24, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

• I do notice that many people these days seem to be far too eager for admins to delete or block something (has it always been that way? I don't think UAA was swamped with frivolous reports back in 2013). It's almost as if people are trying to rack up as many points as they can. At UAA, nobody seems to pay any attention to the huge banner saying "Please limit your reports to obvious violations of the username policy." At CSD, people try to A7 articles over mere notability concerns. At AFD, nobody bothers to look for sources before nominating/voting delete. Do people really have to be slammed to the wall for minor policy violations?

Treatment of editors aside, content is improving. The wiki is always growing and most content is getting better, or at least not getting worse. --Jakob (talk) aka Jakec 21:42, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Attempt at an indicator

I made a rough attempt at determining the frequency of bad behavior in the English Wikipedia, using WP:ANI history. I looked at how long it took to accumulate 5000 edits at ANI recently and compared it to the time it took to accumulate 5000 edits at ANI 5 years ago, indexing it for the number of editors in the English Wikipedia then and now (i.e. dividing by the number of editors then and now.) The indexed edit rate at ANI looks roughly the same, suggesting that the amount of bad behavior by editors in the English Wikipedia is roughly the same today as it was 5 years ago. --Bob K31416 (talk) 00:49, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

I would say the would reflect upon how much of a dramafest ANI happens to be more than the health of Wikipedia itself. That board has a mind of its own. A better measurement may be how many long term editors are ceasing to edit in a given month, though that may be harder to measure. I suspect that more people simply stop editing than start an ANI slugfest when they encounter a hostile work environment. Chillum 14:05, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Re "I suspect that more people simply stop editing than start an ANI slugfest when they encounter a hostile work environment." – That apparently doesn't apply to long-term editors, otherwise they wouldn't be long-term.

Although most acts of bad behavior are not expected to result in an ANI discussion, a certain percentage should. Unless there is a specific reason to believe otherwise, it seems that the percentage would stay fixed over the years and thus the activity at ANI would be an indicator for the amount of bad behavior in Wikipedia. --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:34, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

There are many specific reasons to believe otherwise, most obviously the deprecation of WP:RFC/U and the increasing tendency to create stand-alone subpages to discuss specific users or specific issues to avoid cluttering ANI—discussion of Betacommand, for instance, took place at WP:AN/B so won't show up in your count, but was a massive time-sink. From the former-arb perspective, I can say with absolute certainty that "I suspect that more people simply stop editing than start an ANI slugfest when they encounter a hostile work environment" applies to long-term editors as well; many people move on to a different topic area rather than stay and fight in a field which is attracting cranks. ‑ iridescent 15:54, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

What's better and what's worse?

What's gotten better and what's gotten worse about the English Wikipedia since I started editing in 2006 (with uncharacteristic brevity):

• Better:
  • Increased numbers of articles, reflecting greater coverage of a broad variety of topics.
  • Increased overall amount of content (numbers of articles plus content within individual articles).
  • Increased sensitivity to the importance of the BLP policy and how our articles can affect their subjects.
  • Increased sensitivity to copyright, plagiarism, and related issues.
  • Increased scrutiny of administrator and functionary actions where warranted.
  • Increased receptiveness to constructive criticism.

• Worse, or at least widely believed to be so:
  • Higher barriers to entry—are we as friendly to newcomers, even those who make mistakes, as we should be?
  • Increased complexity of the rule-set (Pundit is the expert on this, I believe)—lots of individual changes, good in themselves, but cumulating to just too many policies and guidelines to follow?
  • High rates of editor and administrator turnover and burnout (maybe not actually worse than years ago, but certainly not better).
  • Decreased numbers of new editors, and of new highly active editors.
  • Increased backlogs caused by the above.
  • Increased air of overall contentiousness, or so it seems to me, though of course it depends on where one spends wikitime.
  • Decreased collaborative spirit, as perhaps reflected in the number of moribund wikiprojects and the like.

• Disputed as to whether worse or better:
  • Overall quality of content (see discussion above, or Fram's upcoming piece in the Signpost).
  • How well are we actually improving BLP compliance and addressing similar issues, beyond the most blatant violations, as opposed to just talking more about them?
  • Effectiveness of dispute-resolution processes (not just the formal ones, but how day-to-day issues actually get resolved, other than by someone just giving up and wandering off).
  • The lack of formal governance and coordinated leadership—in the current state of Wikipedia, is that a bug or a feature?

Thoughts welcome from JW and others. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:47, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

"High rates of editor and administrator turnover and burnout". If you mean rates in the relative sense, as in fraction of administrators that retire per year, then this is false. Annual retention percentages for both very active users and admins have improved. However, the creation rates for admins have plummeted and that for active editors has also fallen, with the net effect that both groups have shrunk over time. Dragons flight (talk) 20:11, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

It certainly isn't going to improve in terms of creating new admins, at least not as long as every proposal to make it easier to remove admins is defeated by the obstinate attitude of the admin corps. They can't have it both ways. If they want more admins, they are going to need to make it easier to remove the ones who aren't working out. Coretheapple (talk) 20:30, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Well, in 2015 alone, the average Admin attrition rate in 2015 has been about about 3–4 per month. So we are definitely losing Admins in a net sense. Now I can't comment on the "attrition rate" of truly "active" Admins, because I haven't looked at those numbers (yet...). --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:04, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Is the increased number of articles necessarily a positive? Personally I think it would be better to see higher quality articles than an excess of stubs or poorly sourced current events (via blogs and op-eds that shouldn't be dictating how an encyclopedia article is written). WP:NOTNEWS is a joke of a policy when we have a front page with an "In the News" section. Instead of looking at how events will be viewed 10 years from now, we've become no better than the mainstream media in trying to get the information out as fast as possible so we can cite our favorite Huffington Post blogger for their "expert" analysis. Muscat Hoe (talk) 21:18, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Re "Is the increased number of articles necessarily a positive? Personally I think it would be better to see higher quality articles..." – On the average over the last five years, I found that there is a net gain of 10 articles per day in the group consisting of Good Articles and above. --Bob K31416 (talk) 23:45, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

In general we put far too much effort into adding new articles (which now mostly get tiny views) and far too little into improving existing articles (many of which get large numbers of views but are terrible and have hardly improved for years). Johnbod (talk) 23:51, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Spot on. Peter Damian (talk) 09:24, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Re existing articles with large views that need improvement, list a few here and I'll take a look and maybe edit a little. --Bob K31416 (talk) 14:42, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

There are thousands - look at Category:Lists of popular pages by WikiProject for any project you like, & select by rated class & importance. Let's assume for now that these ratings are reasonable. Johnbod (talk) 03:46, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

+1 for Johnbod. We're drowning in trivia. GNG needs a rethink and the topic-based notability guidelines should by and large be binned. - Sitush (talk) 00:29, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Why? If anything, the notability guidelines should be relaxed. One independent RS should be enough, and no bias against "local sources". If we have articles that no one wants sitting around, then at worst no one will read them. However, if we get rid of articles that others want, then we fail the readers. Wikipedia is not paper, and there is a search function, so they don't make traditional encyclopedia articles harder to find. This is supposed to be the sum of all human knowledge, why should we insist on such rigid constraints as traditional encyclopedias? --Jakob (talk) aka Jakec 01:17, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

I've told you why, ie: trivia. Just because we can does not mean we should. Try keeping on top of the voluminous rubbish relating to India and Pakistan, then tell me that we should relax GNG. I can find several reliable sources about me but I guarantee you that no-one else is interested. With one RS we effectively open ourselves up to hundreds of thousands of autobiographical articles, for example. - Sitush (talk) 11:16, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not the entire Internet Peter Damian (talk) 12:30, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Everything is trivia to those who are not interested in it. You say hundreds of thousands like it's a bad thing, but if they're neutrally written, properly formatted, and reflect that reliable source, then why not? I feel that the project is limiting its potential by limiting itself to traditional encyclopedia topics when it could be so much more. --Jakob (talk) aka Jakec 11:27, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Yet the same couple/few thousand editors will have to watch all of those newly "notable" biographies for BLP violations and the newly "notable" companies and products for advertorial spam. You say "if they're neutrally written, properly formatted, and reflect that reliable source, then why not?" like that is how most currently non-notable articles are now written. Such is not the case nor is it likely ever to be as long as there is self-promotion in the world. Please come up with a way to get all of those newly notable articles to comply with our policies before saying we should open the floodgates and drown the editors who try to keep Wikipedia from turning into a promotional libel fest. Until then strong GNG is all we have. Jbh^Talk 11:59, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Deletion is definitely not a method of removing promotional writing. That's what normal editing is for. Most genuine spam falls under either A7 or G11. The rest is good-faith content that may be written in a slightly positive tone. That's better than nothing if you're looking for information about that person/company. --Jakob (talk) aka Jakec 12:03, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Deletion is not cleanup if the topic passes notability. We do not have enough editors to clean up what we have and what comes in every day. Promotion is, arguably, not as bad as the BLP issues though. Every one of those must be watched and kept clean.

Just for one example think of the problems if every local politician running for election had a BLP here. Local elections are nasty enough when they just have the local paper to print malicious things and that is when there is an editorial gatekeeper who is subject to whatever the local libel laws are. What happens to the level of potential harm to people when those claims are given a world stage that is the first search result and there are no such constraints except volunteer editors and the suggestion to 'clean up' every article on every local candidate. Now we can just delete them, maybe 30 min for a good BEFORE vs initial clean up which will at best give a perma-stub and the hours or time to monitor the article and deal with the probable reinsertion of the BLP violating material.

Keeping BLP violations out of the encyclopedia is, as I understand it, a pretty big deal and it is not better to have an article that is 'only a little malicious and disparaging'. Nothing is definitely better in that case. I would also argue nothing is also better than an article filled with a bunch of false claims because there are no reliable sources to verify them. Since that is likely what will be in the encyclopedia after the initial new page patrol unless someone happens on the article by chance or some time sucking drama ends up at a noticeboard. Ideals are great, they tell us where we should aim but ideals not tempered with a good dose of practicality is Utopian and that has, to date, never worked out well. Jbh^Talk 12:45, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Lack of notability is not the only reason for deletion. Borderline notability combined with clear promotionalism is an equally good reason. Small variations to the notability standard either way do not fundamentally harm the encycopedia, but accepting articles that are part of a promotional campaign causes great damage. Once we become a vehicle for promotion, we're useless as an encycopedia. At this point, I would say it's the major threat to the value of the project. DGG ( talk ) 21:17, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes but the fact that they are part of a promotional campaign makes such articles hard to get rid of. Even one advocate thereof can muddy up the waters, pepper the AfD page with all kind of bogus arguments and fillibustering, and rescue absolute crap. This is true for both paid and unpaid advocates; the distinction is not always pertinent. Coretheapple (talk) 16:51, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Nomination of Mrs. Wilkes' Dining Room for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Mrs. Wilkes' Dining Room is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mrs. Wilkes' Dining Room until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. sovereign°sentinel (contribs) 18:47, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

If instead of spending all the time and energy you just put into nominating that article for AfD, subsequently coming here to publicize that AfD nomination, and then retracting it again once you saw the jig was up, you could instead have sourced and expanded it yourself, and still had time left over to watch a couple of reruns of M*A*S*H. Just sayin', that's all. But congratulations on taking the normal controversial "should I revert unsourced material or just add a 'citation needed' tag" to a whole new level ... now it's should I add a 'cn', revert, or nominate the whole shebang for AfD and bitch about it on JW's Talk page. I guess someone will next have to go and update the WP:BRD and WP:SOFIXIT guidance to include your new innovative approach. — not really here discuss 03:53, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Not really here, if you're just going to be a jerk to people, then it's possibly time for you to really be gone, ok? Geez. The facts don't really fit your criticism here. The notice that appears above is automated when people use TW to nominate something for deletion - I was notified in a routine manner because I'm the one who started the article way back when.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:14, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Sheesh, I already knew that. I was merely exaggerating a little in order to make a point. I'll go and amend the text next so as to make you happy; the amount of time left over was probably only sufficient to watch one rerun of M*A*S*H anyway. My bad! The point I was trying to make (with some humor) was that it's my personal belief that in many cases where editors nominate an article for AfD, if they first tried some basic steps to improve the article they might find they could fix it relatively quicker and easier and thus eliminate the need for the AfD in the first place.

If you read my "comment/question" re stubs on the actual AfD you can see that at that juncture I was just reading and responding to the AfD and had no intention of touching the article myself (I was leaving that to others). When I later saw that the AfD had been closed only a few minutes after my own vote because the nominator claimed that, although he had originally believed the subject matter not to be sufficiently notable, he had reversed that decision once he had seen the sources posted by the earlier AfD voters, I decided to investigate exactly how much effort it would have taken him to have resolved that matter for himself BEFORE creating an unnecessary AfD nomination.

Consequently, I started Googling around and in less than a minute or two I had found a few extra sources in addition to the references mentioned by the earlier AfD votes. So as not to waste the fruits of my own efforts I returned to the article and made a few edits to add more sources and lengthen the article to the point where I felt I could safely remove the "stub" tag ...

• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mrs._Wilkes%27_Dining_Room&type=revision&diff=680637094&oldid=680616685

What this exercise taught me was that the AfD nominator could indeed have done everything I ended up doing almost as easily as just slapping an AfD notice on the article, which is why I posted the comment I did. Yeah, you're right, it probably would have still taken him a bit more time to go the route I did rather than do the AfD nomination (because, as you say, that's pretty automated) but, at the end of the day, the purpose of Wikipedia is to build an online reference work, and IMHO arbitrarily deleting articles out of languor or ennui seems to be somewhat counter-productive to achieving that goal.

However, going back to the article to get that diff above I now see that my contribution to it on Friday night has since inspired a whole slew of other edits over the weekend that have turned it into quite a decent article. For that reason alone, I feel my approach has been vindicated. If that makes me a jerk to people then so be it. The opinion of others might differ. — not really here discuss 06:02, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

It genuinely is nice to see that you created content once upon a time Jimbo! I'll find the coordinates.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:26, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. I look forward to my retirement years, when I hope to write daily.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:56, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Didn't you say somewhere that you're particularly knowledgeable about the Houses of Parliament? Just read that the Palace of Westminster has a whopping 1100 rooms. I dare say something credible could be written about some of its rooms like the Queen's Robing Room and Royal Gallery etc in their own right. There's probably too much detail in the main article anyway. If the White House gets coverage of each room we ought to have more content on its interior too. I'd like to see a navigation template with a sort of shrinkable map layout of the most notable rooms of it in which you can click a room and read an article. I'd encourage that sort of thing for many other notable institutions too, the Louvre in particular.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:41, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Certainly the Pugin wallpaper in the Speaker's Chambers is of note! All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 02:37, 13 September 2015 (UTC).

That wallpaper may not be visible to editors using browsers with Add-ons and Pugins disabled. :( — not really here discuss 06:25, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Jimbo, I think that would be pretty good. I have the impression that it would be good to collaborate with you and I would hope that our paths of interest would sometime cross at an article. --Bob K31416 (talk) 14:51, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

• I ate there. It was fantastic. Everything on the menu. I wish they paid me for saying this. I mean, Jimbo, have you ever had better fried chicken? Drmies (talk) 15:04, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

I don't think I've ever eaten there. Maybe I'm forgetting it. :)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:53, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

And if every Wikipedia editor created unsourced articles about restaurants they have never eaten at ....... — not really here discuss 06:48, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

I am glad to see the item kept, but as nominated it was indeed unsourced. I wish we would see every AfD for unsourced articles, even short, positively toned ones about business establishments, progress only after people make a genuine effort to find and add sources as they did this time. In the meanwhile I would certainly not call its nomination "vexatious" -- unless we are willing to say that every AfD nomination without a reasonable effort to find sources and fix issues first is vexatious, in which case I could get behind that. Wnt (talk) 16:02, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Sounds like just a knee-jerk reaction to me. :) — not really here discuss 06:48, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

I have to deal with that sort of thing several times a week. An old article from the wiki jurassic period which is poorly sourced or lacking in content and rather than try to improve it people will either prod it for deletion or take to AFD, almost always without success as virtually everything I've ever started can be improved and sourced. I think there needs to be something in place to stop people taking articles with an abundance of potential sources to AFD. People frequently confuse lack of content with lack of notability, it's a substantial problem. Wilkes should never have been permitted to have been nominated, as is the case with most of mine which are taken there, there needs to be something when you come to AFD, does a google book/web search turn up more than five independent sources on the topic?♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:30, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

It's called WP:BEFORE and referring nominators to it in a friendly manner is a good way to cut down on wasted AfDs. I'm more concerned with speedies which can be deleted before an editor can draw breath. Sometimes the deleting admin makes little attempt to check the validity of the speedy tag, it seems. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 02:41, 13 September 2015 (UTC).

They ignore it though!♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:24, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Tweet

A little birdie chirped your name. Drmies (talk) 15:02, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Overseas threats to editors and how to deal with them

Your input, or, for that matter, damn near anyone working for the foundation, would be welcome at WP:ANI#Telstra, Australia IP vandalism. John Carter (talk) 15:36, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree with those calling for a phone call to Telstra to seek their assistance in dealing with the problem. I also agree with blocking the entire ISP if that becomes necessary to get their attention, although I suspect that's not really going to be as effective as a phone call. I'd suggest that we do that (and threaten to go to the press, and go to the press if they still don't respond) only as a last resort. ISPs need to be responsible about cutting off customers who are engaging in massive abuse.

I think we might want to step back and reflect on the current process for handling such situations - they are rare, but there should be a clear and straightforward and accountable way for the community to escalate to Foundation staff.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:54, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

But *who* should call Telstra? The WMF? Or you? Or, are you leaving it all to me?? Huldra (talk) 18:56, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Huldra As I said in a response on ANI contacting the ISP is definitely something that we are looking into as one of the options. We are definitely not leaving it just to you. I have found, however, that the victim also reporting can be very useful (it isn't an either/or thing and they sometimes take multiple reports or a report from a victim more seriously then from a 3rd party) and so would not only say that you reporting to Telstra could be useful but I'd also recommend that you report to your local law enforcement if you feel threatened so that they can make a report in their system either for investigation now or followup later if contacted by other authorities. Jalexander--WMF 19:34, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Jalexander-WMF Thank you for your reply, but I am *not* going to report this to my local police. As I have explained before: "Besides the fact that I live in a country where English is not any of our official languages (we have two), I am not an admin, and all threats are rev-delled. So, I could go to the police, and tell them that this is a rape threat against me and here they want to kill me, ...both comes from an IP at the other side of the world, writing in a foreign language (for my local police), ...and both edits are now over-sighted, so I´m sorry, they cannot see it! Yeah, sure. I would say I have a larger change of winning jackpot in a lottery, than getting the police to act on such a report." In addition, it is the very good point User:SlimVirgin brings up: the fear of outing. "Huldra" is not an uncommon nick to use online (which is why I didn´t get a SUL-account until this spring), Now, it is bad enough living through abuse-edits like this, and this and this,....but how to you think I would feel if my RN was abused in the same fashion? And I second SlimVirgin´s question; why cannot *anyone* give me a clear answer: who will contact Telstra, and when? At the moment it looks like that "hot potato" everyone is quick to pass on. Huldra (talk) 21:20, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

I can understand how it might be preferable to have police be contacted by the victim, who, honestly, probably is in general the best person to file police reports. But I can also understand that there might be a problem with the victim, in this case, not being able to present evidence. And the law in your country might not be able to be as protective of your real name than you might want. Personally, I might myself opt for an admin in Australia, or an editor in Australia with admin assistance, who can revdel the offending messages, going to their local police, maybe with copies or whatever of all the threats and, maybe, a complaint from you, maybe sent as a wikipedia e-mail, regarding the matter as the victim complaint. But, I honestly have no clue about international law and international crimes and all that rot. James might know better if such might be workable. John Carter (talk) 21:33, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

We certainly can not, and do not wish, to force anyone to report something they don't want to report. The WMF will always attempt to do whatever we're able to do to protect community members (and the public) whether they report or not however I do think it is important to point out that it is an incredible help and that it is not uncommon to face walls where police are unwilling to act without one. Both the WMF and the oversighters (and, where simple deletion is in question, administrators) are able to release copies of deleted information for abuse investigations to the victim, to the police and to 3rd parties where needed. I'm sorry Huldra, these types of attacks suck, and as someone whose had death threats for my Wikipedia work for more then a decade now (long before I was staff) I completely understand your frustration. I will certainly tell you that I'm looking at multiple angles to try and help (including the fact that I'm in the office now at 3pm on a Saturday looking into it) but I can't make you promises on when results will be shown and I can't tell you that I contacted [Telstra (or X)] at Y time and Z date. I know that's not what you want to hear but I don't do that for anyone and I can't do that here. As I've said before I think the likely hood of a physical threat is very small in this case but the reality of the large emotional toll and abuse that the constant attacks cause is very real. Sadly that makes it more difficult, law enforcement and ISPs are much more likely to respond to credible threats of physical violence but it is not impossible and we are doing everything we can to try and help. We've been successful doing so in the past and I am confidant that we can be successful doing so again, it isn't easy but it's important. Jalexander--WMF 22:10, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

John Carter Honestly for reports like that it really depends on not only the laws of the country in question but the responses of the local law enforcement. It's hard to make a blanket statement (it's one of the reasons we like to work through the FBI attache's in the embassy ourselves where possible because they know the local environment). Usually they are going to be more open to it if the victim is the local one coming to them but that certainly isn't always the case and it's often worth a try. Jalexander--WMF 22:12, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

@Jalexander Is someone in the WMF keeping a log of the abuse from Telstra IPs? How many occurrences have there been this year? When was the last? Is anyone in the WMF considering restrictions on the Telstra IPs to prevent further abuse? Such restrictions would be unprecedented (I think), but it's time the WMF walked the walk on supporting the community. Johnuniq (talk) 02:05, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Very little of the Telstra IP abuse has been reported to the foundation (Huldra reported some of it a couple weeks ago and today we were pinged) so keeping a long running log has been difficult. That said a good portion of my Saturday was spent gathering a lot of that information (there is certainly much more that could likely be gathered, I'm mostly waiting to hear back from a couple reports to know what they'll need if anything more first) and taking actions in behind the scenes. I believe that the WMF has been walking the walk on supporting the community for quite some time and that support has ranged all over the map from legal funds to help community members fight long term abusers locally to global bans to criminal and civil action that the WMF supports directly to ISP reports and ISP action and much more. However, unfortunately, I can't sit here and list each case and what we tried to do and the results and I'll likely never be able too. Even in this case if the abuser was sent to a jail cell for years I'd never be able to publicly say anything (and at least some people would probably think the same person was doing other vandalism). I still wish we could do more as every case is still a resources balancing issue but It's a fight we've been winning and I think that the importance of supporting the community is becoming clearer and clearer to both the WMF leadership and the community.

Some of that started when CA (Community Advocacy) was part of LCA (Legal and Community Advocacy) and Geoff agreed to provide legal support for users who were sued and then we were allowed to consider Global Bans and help to investigate long term abuse (each of these cases taking 1-200 staff hours to fully investigate). Still at the time it had to me Philippe (who was also responsible for a lot more) and me (when I wasn't doing other work) along with a sporadic hours from other CAs. Now I'm the first Manager of Trust & Safety we've ever had, with my position less then a month old, and we hired a new staff member a couple months ago who has experience with both on and off line abuse and now reports to me spending the majority of her time helping with T&S investigations. Others in CA are also working on the question of online Harassment and how to deal with that both from the WMF standpoint and the community standpoint (Patrick is running that, you can see some of the initial research on meta but there will be more, including a community consultation and survey, later this year). There is a lot to do, but I'm optimistic that there is a knowledge that there is a lot to do now and that the resources and will to do that are slowly increasing. Re: restrictions on Telstra IPs I think those are significantly better to come from the community, we can help with the offline stuff (and occasionally some of the online stuff) but where editing is going to get locked down for large swaths I think the community usually needs to be the one who does that. I'll never rule something out but that's my default position. It wouldn't be completely un precedented (there have been a couple other LTAs which have gotten close either here or on other large wikis/globally) but is certainly very rare. Jalexander--WMF 07:17, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

As you know, the community has a significant number of editors who would never agree to any kind of restriction for a variety of reasons ranging from "not a problem, suck it up" to "liberty requires that all editing is open". I do not know how much abuse from those IPs has occurred, but if it were ongoing and could not be stopped after consultation with the ISP, the WMF needs to step up and resolve the situation with technical measures, and put up with the storm. Many of us do not like being part of a community where individuals can be picked off and harassed in the ways described. Obviously Telstra will ignore everyone and there are only two remedies: an IP restriction or a court order. The former would get Telstra's attention. The latter is not going to happen even if Huldra were to unwisely report the matter to her local police—unwisely because that would invite accidental disclosure of her personal details. Thank you for the explanations and the resource guide link. Johnuniq (talk) 08:31, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

I am alarmed by this notion of blocking Telstra to try to force them to act against the vandal. Just a couple of weeks ago we were in very much the opposite position - saying that the Russians are crazy to block all of Wikipedia to try to force us to censor information about the production of charas. I feel like any precipitous action ("Wikipedia blocks much of Australia over a single editor") totally undercuts our position on anything like this. Though this is a matter of personal guesswork, I doubt a troll who threatens to rape or kill anyone who reverts him is even as much of a risk as an article about a kind of hashish (at least, not when it says some people mix it with tobacco, which is a dangerous drug) So are you going to make a personal apology to Putin and Roskomnadzor, admit that they hold the proper balance on human rights? God I hope not. So we should explore our alternatives - abuse filter alerts, a cadre of volunteer editors, people to explain and belittle his incessant threats, but not censoring Australia, and absolutely not appeals for prosecution [at least presuming there are no specific, plausible threats being made that actually put an editor in real fear for his well-being; unfortunately I cannot be fully informed here because everything is being deleted]. That country's censorship and surveillance of communications is a crime against humanity, and we should neither validate it nor become collaborators with it. Wnt (talk) 11:57, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

All multiple/long term threats of violence/death/rape are plausible until you can identify the person or group making those threats. There is no way to know if the offender is indeed in the same part of the world as their IP address is nor is it impossible for a person to travel if they are fixated on causing harm. Anonymity is the best defense for the victim at this stage so the idea presented earlier about going to the press to force Telestra 'deal with it' is misguided at best. In my, non-expert, opinion just range blocking all of Australia would be much preferable to the 2+ weeks trauma that has been caused to a known person who has been subject to this kind of attack many times not to mention the possibility of unwanted press attention because this is going on on Jimbo's talk page and it is a bit newsworthy that it took two weeks to get the foundation engaged in the matter.

If there must be a risk of news coverage let it be for Wikipedia blocking Australian IP editors to protect an editor from death/rape threats not about how it took two weeks to get the WMF engaged and how the problem is still on going. The first is arguably good press that focuses on the WMF the second is bad press that focuses on the victim and has a much greater chance of them being outed. Outing being the the worst possible outcome. Jbh^Talk 13:04, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

On ANI someone said that the vandal threatens essentially everybody who reverts him. A threat against the whole world isn't really a threat at all. This kind of random trolling is annoying, but if people stand together it doesn't have to be unbearable for any one person. But if the outcome here is to undermine Telstra's efforts to preserve whatever is left of the privacy of their customers, that is unbearable.

More to the point, if your administrative model depends on tracking down and punishing any poster anywhere who makes random threats, then you are locked into a model of universal, ceaseless, Orwellian panopticon. You might track down this vandal and find out he's accessing from libraries, so then you have to demand that every library keeps long-term video archives of everyone accessing its terminals. You might find out he's wardriving for Wi-Fi, and then you have to have undeletable logs mandated in the operating systems of all the 'private' computers hooked up to the Internet, so for example, you're saying Linux should be illegal, because some Richard Stallman types might be roaming around outside of jail, letting people wardrive and access the Internet without knowing who they are. Do you want Linux illegal? Don't start down a road unless you want to end up where it goes! Wnt (talk) 14:04, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

They also make it very clear at ANI that the victim of this abuse is a regular target of such abuse, that it could have been someone who had done the same thing to them before and, if you read some of the stuff the victim has been subject to that this relates to ARBPIA. Yet your take away is that 'the vandal does this to anyone who reverts them', that is not the key take away even if that statement was made.

I do not know where you get your distopian panopticon from my comments so I have no response to it. If you want to expand on that subject please do so on my talk page where I would be happy to discuss it. Jbh^Talk 14:33, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm in Australia and a Telstra subscriber. I'd support hard blocking all Telstra IPs if Telstra doesn't act soon and responsibly on this. That would oblige all Wikipedia editors who are Telstra customers to switch, if they have the option, to another provider. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 13:45, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

I haven't followed this case that closely, but AFAIK at the moment it's been mostly just IP editing. Perhaps they will move on to accounts after a soft block, but I think we should deal with these things as they come, although not taking too long to do so. I think we should also concentrate on the need for protection. We want to do our best to stop this behaviour, so soft blocking the necessary Telstra ranges isn't unresonable. This would have the effect of stopping anonymous editing from a lot of Telstra customers, and perhaps when combined with media attention would help to get Telstra's attention, but that shouldn't be the primary purpose of the block, rather that we need to do what we can to stop the highly problematic editing. And while it's resonable for customers to consider whether their ISP is able to provide a suitable level of service, including whether their abuse department is sufficiently on the ball to stop them being banned from everywhere, ultimately as long as we our policy is to allow IP based editing where possible, again we should be banning on the need for protection, and not because customers should be switching if they can. Nil Einne (talk) 17:08, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

If they don't immediately end their relationship with the abuser or if they unduly delay handing over the abuser's identity to the police, then preventing all of Telstra's clients from editing here is a protection measure. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 17:18, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Your idea is lunacy. It would be lunacy with some positive features, since the Australian editors would work together to develop and document effective workarounds for anyone to edit despite all blocks and bans of any variety. Nonetheless, it would so badly undercut our position that Wikipedia might go directly into its final collapse. This is not the first time that you've tried your best to destroy our ideals, nor will it be the last. Wnt (talk) 23:45, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Your ideals, singular. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 05:58, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Quite frankly if it really comes down to a choice between protecting the personal safety of a registered Wikipedian in good standing versus soft-blocking half of an entire continent's IP users, the only sane choice is to protect the editor and to hell with the ISP. Make it Telstra's problem if they're not responsive to reasonable requests. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 11:57, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

• And yet there is a huge double standard at play here. Some otherwise quite sensible wikipedians above are suggesting collective punishment on Australians due to the transgressions of one person, yet are the first to hide behind anonymity to avoid responsibility for their own edits. This is really a non-starter. You will not convince (of all people) Australians by force. People tend to pull together when under attack as a group. You will not convince Telstra by threats (you are not their customers, they are not required to pay any attention to you). Media attention of a block of a significant part of a predominantly white western-democratic country is not going to be favorable to wikipedia (see previous cases of large geographical blocks on the Register). The only way this will actually get resolved is by reporting it to the authorities both locally and in the home country of the harrasser. Australia the UK and the USA all have large well funded cyber crime authorities who actively take online threats seriously. Telstra will *not* provide information on one of their customers (it would violate data protection laws) without a court order. If the WMF wants to actually *do* something about it, making a formal complaint to the police for *each and every threat* is perfectly feasible. The WMF has millions, literally fucking millions of dollars sitting around that it could be spending on actively making the encyclopedia a nicer place to edit. Hiring one or two people full time on even a basic wage (plenty of people need/want jobs!) to fill in the required harrassment forms, log the information, chase for updates from the relevant authorities etc would be a drop in the ocean of their cash reserves. I have actually taken action against harrassers overseas (Texas sheriffs resolved my issue in about 2 weeks!) and its just a case of finding the correct legal route to apply pressure. The WMF has money to burn and could easily support this. The neverending torrent of abuse some editors get is unbelievable. Its been how many years and no end in sight for some long term vandals, despite the admins, editors, WMF, arbcom etc knowing who they are, their address etc. About time the WMF put their donations to work on something more than badly planned & executed tech upgrades that no one wants. Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:20, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Well, I have been told (off-line) by an Australian that there is very little chance of the police in Australia doing anything *unless* I give up my anonymity. There is *no way* I will do that, for one very good reason: if you knew my RL name, it would take seconds, minutes on the internet to find my home address. (And the way my society function: I cannot change that.) Do you *really* think I will risk giving that to my old friend,..or any of his copy-cats? So after 5 years of rape- and death threats he gets as an award: my home address!

Eeeeh, I don´t think so.

I have been told we stand a better chance contacting https://www.tio.com.au Jalexander-WMF did you know about them? Could you please tell me if you have contacted them, or Telstra? You don´t have to tell me here; you have my email-address.

Also, understandably, the fact that edits have been oversighted makes the case more difficult, however, oversighted edits *can* be made "viewable", again, can´t they? If so, I hereby give permission to do that..(if my permission is needed) Huldra (talk) 22:22, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm dismayed that WMF haven't even told you if they've contacted Telstra, and haven't bothered to ask how you feel about un-hiding the abuse. I assumed when you went quiet it was because they were dealing with you by email. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 00:13, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Only in death does duty end, it's unfortunate you had to deal with that on your own. Let's see how it plays out when Telstra is faced with the WMF and the Wikipedia community. I'd have hoped to hear by now, though, that they've severed their relationship with the abuser (assuming the WMF has actually contacted them). --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 01:20, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Huldra While I'm not completely comfortable with undeleting the comments regardless (I still think it causes harm to have them up, and not just to you) I would not stand in the way if community members decided to do so. I do believe that's best within their realm however and not within the WMFs decision (My understanding is that it would be allowed within the privacy policy). I'll contact you by email re you other questions. Jalexander--WMF 01:30, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Who Has Your Back?

The Wikimedia foundation was awarded five out of five stars in the Electronic Frontier Foundation's 2015 Who Has Your Back? report.

"Wikimedia earns five stars in this year’s Who Has Your Back report. This is Wikimedia’s second year in the report, and it has adopted all of the best practices we’ve identified as part of this report. We commend Wikimedia for its strong stance regarding user rights, transparency, and privacy." --EFF

More details here. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:52, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Let's hope, after the material in the section above is resolved, they can say the same again next year. John Carter (talk) 20:03, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

The responses above makes it pretty clear that working on this website is a situation where you go to a party that gets unexpectedly out of hand, and the property owner tells you you can call the police if you wish, but you'll have to go figure out the phone number yourself, but not to worry, they've consulted their lawyers and their lawyers are on top of it, but they can't tell you anything about it. There is a real need here for someone who actually represents the interests of the volunteer to be part of the process of resolving online harassment. Leaving this matter in the hands of a software company employee jaded by years of getting online threats himself, who can't tell you anything about what has been done, and who needs to push all all user interactions towards being conducted transparently online is not an optimum solution. A trained, independent representative for volunteers, who reports to a user group, not a software company, who is able to maintain confidentiality, who can work one on one with users to get resolution from law enforcement, who is permitted to be open and honest with the user what is going on, and who doesn't regard online threats as a norm, is much needed for situations of online harassment if this group intends to be a volunteer-based organization. (1 2) ( 3. Also, it should be possible to work with a representative of the same gender upon request. )--Djembayz (talk) 11:50, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Editor test

I only just heard about Ballotpedia from Larry. It uses Mediawiki but is the opposite of the wiki concept, namely it vets editors and all submissions are carefully reviewed. I was fascinated by the editor test. I wonder how many editors here could pass it. It tests a mixture of wiki knowledge (e.g. templates) and simple grammar (what is a comma splice). I don't think it would go down well here! Peter Damian (talk) 14:06, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

It's a pity you cannot just take the test and receive your score. Or possibly I did something wrong, because having completed the test I was immediately taken to a new tab window requesting me to email my test results to Ballotpedia without my even knowing how I had done, which seemed a bit stupid. Especially since filling in your name and email address is mandatory data to be entered (these are required fields indicated by a red "*") in order to even submit your test answers in the first place. Even though some of the questions were a bit Ballotpedia-specific (I too was unaware of this site until I read your comment above, so I have never visited it) the only question that made me stop and think was the optional DPL-related one WRT ballot measures because I thought it had to do with disambiguation. The wiki knowledge and grammar questions were a breeze IMO - and should be for anyone with a university degree to their name. Of course, I may have got the answers wrong, which is why letting you know your score (whether you subsequently wish to edit Ballotpedia or not) would have been more useful - and in some cases, a possible "wake-up call" to those taking the test. — not really here discuss 16:06, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

The 'dangling modifier' question is slightly tricky, but not that tricky. Peter Damian (talk) 14:11, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

There should have been more questions on the test such as this one IMO. — not really here discuss 16:06, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

In my opinion comma splice and dangling modification aren't really matters of grammar--they're style. To each their own, of course. Drmies (talk) 02:33, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

See Modifier Placement.—Wavelength (talk) 19:12, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Three of the questions are sort of Ballotpedia-specific. Their rudimentary citation format isn't very interesting, but the question about mw:Extension:DynamicPageList is interesting. If you search "dynamic page lists" on Wikipedia you'll find remarkably little discussion of it, mostly positive; apparently Wikinews and Wikibooks were using it, at least as of 2008. I've wanted to see a way for Lua scripts and other things to access category lists, but I never knew this feature was conceivably available (though it wouldn't do that now that access to processed page text was removed). Wnt (talk) 15:22, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

So that's what that question was about. I'll have to go research that topic. But that was an optional question (the only one on the test) so I'm guessing that whatever your answer to that question (or even whether you skip it) doesn't affect your eventual score; which Ballotpedia are never going to tell you anyway. You are only going to find out if you scored higher than the minimum 83% if you receive an invitation to become a guest editor at Ballotpedia a month or so after you took the test. Bizarre. — not really here discuss 16:06, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Possibly some potential or actual editors are aware of (and embarrassed by) their area(s) of incompetency. (Compare John 3:21.) Fortunately, performance can be improved for closer conformity with acceptable standards, although some editors might prefer to revise the standards to match their performance. (Compare 2 Timothy 4:3.)

—Wavelength (talk) 19:12, 14 September 2015 (UTC) and 21:53, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

IP appears when logging out

Hello, I have noticed when I went to one article, it shown an IP address (I.e., 75.107.21.141, and geolocated to Snead, FL), but however, CentralAuth didn't say it was registered. I am uncertain If I have accidentally clicked on the submit button on an article's edit page, because I registered in 2013 and I just noticed it today, so the IP should have been hidden. Racer-Ωmegα 20:23, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Reality check

I'd like to interrupt the above self-flagellation by pointing out the goal of Wikipedia -- making all human knowledge relevant to the general reader available totally free -- no fees, no ads, no restrictive licenses -- with total perfection using a labor force of mostly anonymous volunteers is just a bit ambitious, and we shouldn't despair if we don't quite make it. I'll be the first to acknowledge that mainspace could be improved and a lot of what goes on in the Wikipedia:: namespace is, uh, messy but if you go back say thirty-five years or so the notion of something like Wikipedia would be absurd or 24th century science fiction. As a volunteer project, this should be fun, so let's try to keep our perspective. Part of this should include having a little more faith in our readers to filter the quality of a given article. I know the only reason I even peeked at Wikipedia around 2005 or so is I heard or read some media interview with some guy talking about how Wikipedia is a tertiary source and readers shouldn't believe it without checking the references. That made a lot of sense then, and it should make sense now. NE Ent 21:41, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Does anyone find this fun? Andy Dingley (talk) 02:36, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

I had great fun yesterday. Today, it's a bit less. Drmies (talk) 02:39, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

I had fun at first writing Pacific War articles. After I poked my head into some of the nonsense going on in the rest of WP, that's when I started having a lot less fun. I've been waiting for nine years, poking and prodding Jimbo and WP's administration to get their act together and fix WP so that stuff like that won't happen again. I'm still waiting. Cla68 (talk) 03:01, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

While you were waiting you became a paid editor, and advertised for work via a box on your user page, which you only just removed and does not appear to meet the standards required by the Terms of Use.[2] Who did you work for? Or would you rather that the "journalists watching this page" not know? Coretheapple (talk) 19:33, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Enhancing Wikipedia articles can be tons of fun, unless your edits are reverted by someone with no conceivable explanation other than that they have a personal bias against the editor (I think Mr. Dingley understands what I'm talking about). Jackdude101 (Talk) 3:11, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Bug in MediaWiki

In my patrol log it says some of my edits got autopatrolled by myself. But I cannot do that, for I am just an autoconfirmed user. Krett12 (talk) 04:30, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

@Krett12: this related to Pending Changes, as opposed to new pages. As you are autoconfirmed, any edits to a PC1-protected page show up as "automatically accepted/patrolled". 15:26, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

5 millionth article milestone: community press release, video, open letter, and site banner

Users are invited to participate in planning and discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)#5 millionth article celebration: community press release, video, open letter, and site banner. --Pine^✉ 07:00, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Useful cut and paste:

<div>As of {{CURRENTDAYNAME}}, {{CURRENTDAY2}} {{CURRENTMONTHNAME}} {{CURRENTYEAR}}, {{CURRENTTIME}} (UTC), The English Wikipedia has {{NUMBEROF|USERS|en|N}} registered users, {{NUMBEROF|ACTIVEUSERS|en|N}} active editors, and {{NUMBEROF|ADMINS|en|N}} administrators. Together we have made {{NUMBEROF|EDITS|en|N}} edits, created {{NUMBEROF|PAGES|en|N}} pages of all kinds and created {{NUMBEROF|ARTICLES|en|N}} articles.</div>

Which puts the following on the page:

As of Thursday, 16 May 2024, 02:13 (UTC), The English Wikipedia has 47,405,764 registered users, 121,501 active editors, and 859 administrators. Together we have made 1,219,322,982 edits, created 60,672,722 pages of all kinds and created 6,824,132 articles.

..and it autoupdates when you reload the page and the numbers have changed. --Guy Macon (talk) 08:36, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes it's a big figure but you only have to hit random article a few times to know that the general quality isn't great. The sourcing is getting better but 85% of articles at least are deficient. Why boast about 5 million pages when after 14 years we only have 30,000 articles of assessed quality to shout for?♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:09, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Assessed by whom? According to Alexa, WP is the 7th most popular site in the world. Someone must like what we're doing. NE Ent 10:14, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

FA and GA articles/lists officially assessed at one point by wikipedians, it's just over 30,000.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:10, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

What do bureaucratically-assessed articles have to do with anything? Carrite (talk) 11:20, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Everything. It's important that articles are given a formal, decent review by other editors in which somebody can randomly check for quality standards. It's what we should be trying to achieve for every article. By no means does that "officially" mean it's a quality article, but it has at least been looked at by others and peer reviewed.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:23, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree in part and disagree in part. The figure of 30,000 assessed is more a criticism of the assessment process, I think, than a criticism of actual quality. What I mean is that for a variety of reasons, not least of which is difficulty of work flow and affordances in the user interface, assessment of quality is something that we, as a community, under-invest in. So articles aren't evaluated often enough, aren't prioritized in the UI enough when they need work, etc. I think there are changes to mediawiki - product changes - that could support and empower and encourage that kind of work.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:23, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, the 30,000 figure is by no means exactly accurate because there are in all honesty articles which should never have passed GA status in there or are badly in need of sourcing improvement to reach current standards. Then of course there are articles which are easily good article standard or close and nobody has taken the time to promote them yet. There's a lot more than 30,000 which are decent, useful articles, but what I meant was that is what has been officially assessed including both FA, GA and lists. 5 million is a remarkable figure, but it's a poor reflection of what are actually articles as it includes thousands of disambiguation pages, undeveloped stubs or unsourced material which is barely legible. So yes, we can say "Oh look we've created 5 million articles", but let's not get too carried away..♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:09, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

It is true that there's a lot of articles which are very good but are still at B class level and would need very little work to actually promote to GA. I do think the number of people taking articles to GA is increasing, it's important that work is reviewed and assessed, but the vast majority, even core topics need updating and source improvement and very few people are doing it. One reason is that core articles tend to attract a lot of traffic and people adding bits and pieces so over time it can start to look a bit haphazard. They become too intimidating and bloated to even attempt to sort out without starting from scratch. Also google books as a resource has vastly improved since 2007-8 period. Articles which I wrote back in the late 2000s, when I look at them today the sourcing is poor, when there's now often a lot of decent book coverage. I do think there needs to be a priority to get all of the "vital" assessed articles up to GA status which have had some sort of review and are fairly satisfactory. And those articles I think need to be re-reviewed every year or two to ensure they're up to current standards.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:19, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Why that would involve actual academics and effort and not "I seen it on Family Guy." -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 11:42, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Is the number of 'articles created' being reported the number that have not been deleted or is it just a raw number of 'pages created'? Does it include redirects? If so how many actual articles, not redirects or deleted pages, exist now? Jbh^Talk 13:10, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

As of Thursday, 16 May 2024, 02:13 (UTC), The English Wikipedia has 47,405,764 registered users, 121,501 active editors, and 859 administrators. Together we have made 1,219,322,982 edits, created 60,672,722 pages of all kinds and created 6,824,132 articles. This does not include deleted pages.

For the details of how the above numbers are generated, start here. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:21, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. Jbh^Talk 21:24, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

"WikiGate"?

I wanted to bring this to your attention, Jimbo, in case you hadn't already seen it or the tweets by Michael Eisen discussed therein. It seems his issue is that as a result of WP:TWL, people will add links to paywalled articles in Elsevier journals that not every reader of Wikipedia will be able to read. Everymorning (talk) 16:58, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

So just like JSTOR etc then, or dead-tree books "that not every reader of Wikipedia will be able to read". There has never been a suggestion that WP should be exclusively sourced from the open access internet, and the many articles that actually are tend not to be our best. Johnbod (talk) 18:18, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

That. Where have you got the idea that we shouldn't be sourcing from sources that one has to pay to read (or "books", as we used to call them)? ‑ iridescent 18:22, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree. I think "WikiGate" is a pretty inflammatory thing to say. And the argument really just doesn't hold much weight once you examine it in depth. There is a kernel here that I do think matters - when there is a choice between equally valid sources, we should tend to favor the more free ("open") ones.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:31, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

As much as I would like to wage war on the corporations that force scientific authors to put their articles behind paywalls as a condition of being published, Wikipedia isn't the place to do that. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:25, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

I respect Eisen, but Wikipedia needs to cover unique content that is locked behind paywalls. We should always add accessible sources where possible, and if there is a surfeit of sources we should reach for the open ones. But kicking at publishers to try to punish them for making it easier for editors to get some of their data to the public is not what I want. Wnt (talk) 21:33, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

What on earth is wrong with allowing us to verify sources? The inability to access academic full text is a major issue in several areas of medicine on Wikipedia. Guy (Help!) 21:43, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

There is a difference between being able to verify a source and being able to verify it quickly, online, and free of charge. Wikipedia:Verifiability#Access to sources clearly indicates that some sources may not be easy or free to access, but that does not disqualify those sources from use by Wikipedia. As Jimbo stated above, we should favor open access sources when available, but for many subjects good quality open access sources do not exist. Trying to impose an open access variation of FUTON bias will not help Wikipedia in its goal of building the encyclopedia. --Allen3 ^talk 21:56, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

There are still libraries full of printed books which aren't available full-text on Googlebooks or elsewhere, and bound volumes of older journals which aren't available online, and access to these materials has always been difficult for many readers of the encyclopedia, through geography or access restrictions. But this material is all perfectly valid as references for WP articles. Not every source has to be online, open-access or not. PamD 22:01, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Far be it from me to defend Elsevier, but this is at most a marginal issue. People with the expertise to skilfully interpret academic literature are likely to have access through their institutions or other sources. A token number of free subscriptions isn't going to have a big effect on Wikipedia's coverage. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:43, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

I think a lot of people with access to the service have it via their work position, which may mean that many of the people using it to edit Wikipedia with academic sources may be slacking off at their dayjobs. Cla68 (talk) 01:51, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

At least they're not playing Candy Crush. Everyking (talk) 06:15, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Public outreach and education is a significant facet of many academic jobs, so we're actually hard at work, not slacking off. WilyD 06:42, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

"People are likely to have access through their institutions". Well, maybe not in the long run. Also, Eisen is not saying that we should disregard Elsevier articles, but that we should not provide links to their paywall. Cheers, Stefan64 (talk) 07:34, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

I think it's likely mostly uni students with journal access, who I can only assume outnumber academics on Wikipedia, and (for some courses at least) have absurdly large amounts of free time that can be spent editing Wikipedia.Brustopher (talk) 14:20, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

I have a very hard time taking anything seriously that uses the "gate" suffix. Chillum 14:08, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

• Much ado about nothing. We're doing a summary of human knowledge, not a summary of open source and public domain knowledge. Whether there are links in footnotes or not is minor, so long as the information documented by the footnotes is accurate. Those swashbuckling sorts who deeply care about this matter might might consider going Aaron Swarz with single pages of copyright documents posted to Archive.org with an attached claim of fair use as a stopgap. Carrite (talk) 14:35, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Hmm, we could encourage editors who linked to paywalled resources to be more liberal with quoting the relevant passage as a service to readers. That sounds reasonable in any event.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:40, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Agree - as a service to readers, but also as a courtesy to other editors and anyone reviewing the article for WP:DYK, WP:GA or WP:FA. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 16:00, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

It should be noted though that extended quotes are generally a violation of copyright. I have many times had to delete quotes that were too long. Looie496 (talk) 16:17, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

It should be noted though that extended quotes, properly sourced, are not generally a violation of copyright. I'd like to see a few examples. We have never, to my recollection and knowledge, had a legal complaint or threat of any kind about a properly sourced quote. There could be exceptions such as quoting the entire lyrics of a poem or song in a single block quote, but that isn't what we are talking about here. We're talking about a block quote of a passage from an academic paper published behind a firewall by Elsevier. I find it very hard to imagine a serious legal issue with that.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:28, 15 September 2015 (UTC)