Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard

This notice board is provided so that editors can ask for advice about material that might be original research (OR) or original synthesis.

The policy that governs the issue of original research is Wikipedia: No original research (WP:NOR). It says: "Wikipedia does not publish original research or original thought. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position." For questions about the policy itself, please go to WT:NOR.

Please post new topics in a new section. When a thread is closed, you can tag it with {{resolved}}.

Synthesis

I have been accused of WP:SYN on the Father's rights movement talkpage,[1] and would like the outside opinion of experts on this matter. User:Michael H 34 suggests that "Synthesis also occurs when a source discusses one thing and then an editor uses the material to connect the dots to something else. You have connected the dots from artificial constructs used "for analysis purposes" of actual people to the actual people themselves."

The sentences in question are those added in this edit [2]. They are sourced from Social Problems (2003, Aldine Press (p.97) and Fatherhood Politics in the United States (2004) University of Illinois Press p.11. Obviously I do not believe that synthesis is at work here and consider that these edits are appropriate, but would be glad of the opinion of others.--Slp1 (talk) 02:25, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd be very grateful for some input on this. Further accusations have been made on the talkpage, and I would like some feedback. Thanks in advance.--Slp1 (talk) 22:04, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

well, on a cursory reading you've essentially taken an opposing view and relegated it to a footnote, and then, reasserted the other view as though all scholars held it. you also did (as the quote above suggests) make a shift from talking about scholars' views of FRAs to talking about FRAs themselves (where you say 'These fathers' rights activists state...'). these create some distinct shifts in meaning. personally I'd call it misattribution rather than OR, though I'm not up on the material enough to know whether your perspective or the previous one is closer to sources. I suggest that you make it clear where you are citing scholars and where you are citing Father's Rights activists so that there isn't any confusion about who is saying what about whom. --Ludwigs2 05:13, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks very much for your comments, Ludwigs2. Would you mind taking a bit of a closer look, by any chance? For example, I think you must have misread something since no view has been relegated to a footnote. Both views are clearly important, and need equal position per WP:UNDUE. And I certainly don't have any problem with attributing the specific ideas to the scholars as you suggest, though personally I feel the introduction and linking words "The scholars state...."; "These FRA..." and "In contrast," (and the citations of course) made it fairly clear that this is all part of one section attributed to academics. But no problem. However, the dispute is really over whether the actual material about differing FRA's views of feminism is OR. To me, the ideas about this contained in this edit [3] is appropriately sourced from this book [4] (and there are other academic books that say the same thing). What do others think? --Slp1 (talk) 11:35, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I do not see how the material could be construed as a WP:SYNTH violation. It is not original research to add material from multiple sources and link it using words like "in contrast", provided that the material from all sources relates directly to the subject at hand, which this appears to. Note that I am not necessarily endorsing the use of contrast but, assuming the sources say what they're presented as saying, I don't see any OR. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 11:45, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks very much. Just to clarify, though. The point about the contrasting views FRAs have about feminism is in fact specifically made in the individual sources themselves. For example, this [5] describes both the pro and anti-feminist wings (using the terms conservative and liberal) and contrasts them within the text, using the words "In comparison". So I am not even trying to link information from multiple sources, but to just to faithfully summarize material from the same source (material which is repeated in other reliable sources) --Slp1 (talk) 21:14, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Slp1 - sorry, you're right - I missed the closing slash on the ref tag, and thought it included something it didn't. one of the problems of reading diffs... I'll take a closer read and give you a more informed opinion, as well as I can. --Ludwigs2 19:22, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

No problem! --Slp1 (talk) 21:14, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Image question

At Latin America, there is an image of white girls in team Mexico shirts to illustrate that 10-15% of Mexico and very large portions of the populations of other Latin American countries are white. This has caused one editor to claim that the uploader was lying, and another to claim that it violates OR. Talk:Latin America#White population in Mexico. I thought that this was covered by wp:OI: "Original images created by a Wikipedia editor are not, as a class, considered original research – as long as they do not illustrate or introduce unpublished ideas or arguments, the core reason behind the NOR policy." as well as good faith that the uploader wasn't lying. Can somebody else comment as we seem to be going in circles. NJGW (talk) 04:50, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm the editor claiming that it's OR, since NOR applies to image captions also, because the claim that those are Mexicans is not found in reliable sources but only emerges from the uploader him-/herself. (Btw, that part of Mexico's population — 9% (CIA) or 15% (Britannica) — is white in undisputable, IMO. So that's not an issue.) So the question is: can a Wikipedian take a picture of an unknown person and upload it with a description that reads "this is a Fooian", and that's it, that's a Fooian, based on no other source? SamEV (talk) 07:09, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd concur with SamEV. Are they Mexican? Are they white? I'd rather replace this image with a photo of a properly identified, named person that clearly identifies him/herself as white. One is just as good as three. NVO (talk) 15:39, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I hope it's not a breach of Wikiquette for me to say "Thank you". SamEV (talk) 15:47, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Here's another example of an image that was considered an image of Greeks once (so says the respectable National Film Board of Canada), then someone said Hey, it's Russians coming and now nobody can tell the truth except for the very people in the picture. Go figure. Attribution is important. NVO (talk) 16:54, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

(ec) I wrote a fairly long reply to this discussion, but then decided to scrap it. This image is simply not a very good test case for WP:OI: it's not that it's an original image taken by a Wikipedian, but that it's a fairly unremarkable — and probably quite easily replaceable — low-res image of potentially identifiable living people, with no information on where and when it was taken (including no Exif data) or who the subjects are, uploaded by a "hit-and-run uploader" with no other contribs. I don't really know how Commons tends to regard such images, but if it was on Wikipedia and didn't happen to be used in any articles, I don't expect anyone on IfD would object to its deletion.

(Incidentally, the main thrust of my discarded comment was that the real issue — barring BLP concerns — is not whether the image actually depicts white Mexicans but whether it's a good illustration for a section discussing white Mexicans. But nevermind.) —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 17:36, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the main point SamEV seems to be making is that almost any picture that doesn't contain famous people/things is OR. There are other pictures on the same page or Indigenous South Americans, Cuban salsa dancers, and Central American Mestizos which says are also OR. My reading of the OR image policy is that the images should not "illustrate or introduce unpublished ideas or arguments", and so all four of these images are not an OR problem. Can we get some more people to weigh in as Sam is raising a global issue rather than a specific one? NJGW (talk) 18:47, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I read the discussion at Greek Canadian, NVO. There's a Russian flag over their heads, and no Greek flag, so calling them Russians seems entirely appropriate, I agree. On the other hand, don't disregard entirely the description of them as Greeks, just in case it they really were Russians of Greek ancestry. In any case, this seems like a good little mystery. Maybe you could try contacting Russian Canadian and/or Greek Canadian people or organizations in Vancouver.

Thank you too, Ilmari Karonen. To be sure, my objection is not the fact that a Wikipedian may have taken the picture, but the entire lack of an outside source concerning these subjects' nationality/citizenship. But now that you bring up the right to privacy, I'd also add that as another reason why an already-public figure should be used instead. Besides, the BLP policy states: "Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons — whether the material is negative, positive, or just questionable — should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion, from Wikipedia articles, talk pages, user pages, and project space." Unsourced it is, and this discussion is itself proof that the image has proven contentious.

I wonder what it will take for you, NJGW, to see that: the image has zero reliable source attribution. That's the crux of it. SamEV (talk) 18:50, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

If you think there are other reasons for the picture to be inappropriate, that's a topic for another place... right now we're discussing whether it violates the current OR image policy. According to your standard, the image at Johns Hopkins Blue Jays lacrosse, all but perhaps the historical photographs at petroleum, all the photographs at Naval Infantry (Russia), and all the photos at fish would be OR. I'm not asking you to keep telling me I'm wrong, I'm asking other people to have a look at the question. NJGW (talk) 19:27, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Allow me to correct you: it's not my standard, it's Wikipedia's.

And if there are more violations, then there are more violations; whether it be additional reasons why the image is wrong, or other instances of NOR violations. SamEV (talk) 19:59, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I certatinly agree that the image and caption at Latin America constitute OR. Images should clearly depict what is discussed in the text. This picture does not. There is more than reasonable doubt as to whether the people depicted in the image are indeed Mexicans. It is just as likely that they are Europeans or Americans. Tourists who happen to be wearing team Mexico shirts. Blueboar (talk) 13:25, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

And thank you too, Blueboar. (I thought I'd break with the thanking tradition, but couldn't.) SamEV (talk) 01:50, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Fathers' rights

An editor, User:Michael H 34, has repeatedly inserted a sentence [6] from page 48 of this reliable source [7] into the History and Background section of Fathers' rights movement article. The problem in my view is that neither the book, the chapter, nor the involved paragraph is about the fathers' rights movement but about child custody through the ages, and that the inclusion of this sentence is therefore Original Research.("If the sources cited are not directly related to the article subject, then the editor is engaged in original research"). Indeed, the sentence occurs in a section about the 'father absence' motif, which is specifically noted to be a move away "from a concern with father's rights". More details of my analysis can be found here.[8]. Michael H 34 disagrees and argues for its inclusion. Can we have an outside opinion please? --Slp1 (talk) 11:34, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Any chance that somebody could offer an opinion? --Slp1 (talk) 12:42, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

NBA depth chart articles

On various NBA depth charts (the chart that somewhat shows who plays how much and when they enter the game), there are two schools of thought on how to keep them up-to-date:

1. Keep them consistent with an external source such as espn.com which lists the depth charts for each team. For example, here is a depth chart: {{2008–09 Detroit Pistons depth chart}} and here is the corresponding ESPN depth chart.
2. Base them on playing time determined from each NBA games boxscore. This method would use various boxscores: Ex. 1, Ex. 2 and Ex. 3.

I think it's appropriate to only use the first method since there is a reliable source which lists the exact information which is used in the template. I this the second method is inappropriate because the editor has to analyze the playing time of each player to determine where they fit in the depth chart. This method is ambiguous since it's not defined how to make this decision. Does it take into account all the playing time to date? Just the playing time in the last game? All the playing time in the last week?

I'm curious what everyone else has to say on the subject. — X96lee15 (talk) 13:31, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I see method 2 as original research because it is based on the editor's analysis of the players' recent minutes played, and any answers to your questions are original research as well...unless there is a reliable source that specifically defines the "depth" of a team. —LOL ^T/_C 17:32, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I think option #2 is the better one. Also, the NBA.com box scores now specify which players were on the inactive list that game. ● 8~Hype ^@ 21:31, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

• I would say wait for a reliable source to list a depth chartDigitalC (talk) 22:10, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

We should have a reliable source for this sort of thing, as I don't believe that minutes played is the only factor in setting the depth chart - so option 1 would be my preference. That said, a list of players by team, sorted by the average number of minutes played per game (backed by a source for that stat) wouldn't be original research itself, since all we'd be doing is ordering the list by value, which is objective (48 is greater than 40, for example). UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 14:21, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Most of the pages the depth charts are included on have a sortable statistics table that has average minutes played as one of the columns. That might be a good place to be able to see that information, although it will not be sorted by position as it would be on the depth chart. — X96lee15 (talk) 15:46, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Genetic psychiatry POV (without refences) at Bipolar disorder

An editor operating under a pseudonym indicating a well-known researcher (see Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Is_this_WP:OUTING.3F) has done a large number of edits to Bipolar disorder to push the article towards the POV that bipolar disorder is mainly genetic. This would be all fine and dandy if he added references to support his/her point of view, but (s)he didn't. VG ☎ 18:47, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

To keep discussion centralized, better reply at this WikiProject_Psychology thread, where discussion is already taking place. VG ☎ 19:07, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Original Synthesis?

In the Yamashita's gold article this sentence is added by an anonymous ip editor:

On February 28, 2000, the trial court conducted a hearing to determine the value of the golden buddha and the 17 bars of gold [reference 1 here] and awarded approximately $13 million. [reference 2 here]

Reference 2 makes no mention of the events that took place in Reference 1. Is this an example of original synthesis? Jim (talk) 03:59, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

No, there's no requirement for reference 2 to do a recap of the full history of the golden Buddha. But, it isn't clear whether the $13M in ref 2 was for only the Buddha or if it included the gold bars too. Squidfryerchef (talk) 05:22, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Squidfryerchef, but reference 2 does not mention the trial of Feb 28, 2000. Reference 2 could be refering to the original trial of 1996? Jim (talk) 09:40, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

It's hard to say; it almost requires a flowchart to go through the figures. Maybe more sources should be brought in to reach agreement. Squidfryerchef (talk) 23:04, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I do not believe there is an issue concerning whether the award was for the golden buddha, or the 17 bars, or both. The issue being disputed by JimBob is whether there is any judgment at all for the theft of any portion of the treasure! Reference 1 was dated after the hearing on the value of the gold, but before the trial court's decision. Reference 2 was dated after the trial court's decision, but while the decision was still pending on appeal. JimBob conveniently failed to provide you with reference 3 which clarifies the exact nature of the judgment awarded. [reference 3 here] This article was dated after the judgment became final and states: "Golden Buddha Corp. has a judgment against Imelda Marcos in her personal capacity to the extent of her interest in the Marcos estate in the principal amount of $13,275,848.37 plus taxable cost of $61,074.54 as of Oct. 21, 1996.Felix Dacanay, as personal representative of the Roxas estate, has a judgment against Imelda Marcos in her personal capacity to the extent of her interest of the Marcos estate in the principal amount of $6 million as of Oct. 21, 1996." The article also makes clear that the claims assigned to the GBC were the claims for theft of the treasure. He also left out Reference 4, also dated after the final judgment and also confirming the existence of a judgment for the theft of the treasure. reference 4 here (see page 2)] That source provides: "Petitioners Estate of Roger Roxas and Golden Budha Corporation (Roxas claimants) obtained a $19 million Hawaii state court judgment against Imelda Marcos, Marcos’s wife, in October 1996, based on claims of torture, imprisonment, and theft of a treasure owned by Roxas." The Solicitor General obviously combines the $6 million awarded to the estate and $13m awarded to the GBC to reach its $19m figure awarded to the "Roxas claimants" defined as both. There are many other authorities as well. I invite you to review the article and talk page for a full recitation of all the sources JimBob is battling against. Remember, the exact amounts are not the real dispute, JimBob refuses to allow any mention of the fact that Roxas' successors have any judgment whatsoever concerning the theft of the treasure, which cannot be rationally supported by reference to the applicable authorities.

"Editors should not make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article to come to the conclusion C. This would be a synthesis of published material which advances a new position, which constitutes original research. "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this same argument in relation to the topic of the article." Jim (talk) 02:39, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

And the sky is blue... Your statement makes no sense in relation to the facts of this case. A and B can be put together to reach conclusion C when conclusion C is reported as a fact in reliable sources D, E, F and G (which is the situation we have on the Yamashita's Gold article) 70.181.94.213 (talk) 14:53, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, no... that is the entire point of this part of NOR. A and B must not be put together in that way, unless a source puts them together. Blueboar (talk) 16:33, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Outside views needed.

Unresolved

• The relevant content is: Many controlled clinical studies of spinal manipulation (SM) are available, but their results disagree,[1] and they are typically of low quality.[2].

Refs: 1) Ernst E, Canter PH (2006). "A systematic review of systematic reviews of spinal manipulation". J R Soc Med. 99 (4): 192–6. doi:10.1258/jrsm.99.4.192. PMID 16574972.

2)Fernández-de-las-Peñas C, Alonso-Blanco C, San-Roman J, Miangolarra-Page JC (2006). "Methodological quality of randomized controlled trials of spinal manipulation and mobilization in tension-type headache, migraine, and cervicogenic headache". J Orthop Sports Phys Ther. 36 (3): 160–9. PMID 16596892.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

Johnston BC, da Costa BR, Devereaux PJ, Akl EA, Busse JW; Expertise-Based RCT Working Group (2008). "The use of expertise-based randomized controlled trials to assess spinal manipulation and acupuncture for low back pain: a systematic review". Spine. 33 (8): 914–8. doi:10.1097/BRS.0b013e31816b4be4. PMID 18404113.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

The Fernandez-de-las-Penas article states that there are FEW (not many) RCTs investigating the effectiveness of SMT for TTH/CeH/M (headaches), and that the methodological quality of THESE papers is low. It does not state that the methodological quality of clinic studies of spinal manipulation in general are low, only that the few RCTs on headaches are of low quality. I think that stating that using this reference to state that "controlled clinical studies of spinal manipulation ... are typically of low quality" is OR.

Johnson 2008 states "Of 12 eligible trials, none made use of an expertise-based randomized trial design." (a specific type of RCT), but does not make any statements that the 12 trials they reviewed were or low quality, nor did they state that conctrolled clinical studies of SM are typically of low quality.

The editor who wrote this text has also using Bronfort et al (2004) to verify this statement. It states ""In spite of urgent calls for improved methodological quality of RCTs on spinal manipulation, it appears that even the most recently published RCTs have been of discouragingly low quality. Fifty-two (75%) of the 69 RCTs in this review exhibited relatively low quality (validity scores less than 50). Of the 43 trials accepted into evidence, 29 (67%) also had relatively low validity scores (6 to 44)." Even this source however, only states that the "RCTs in this review exhibited relatively low quality", and does not state that RCTs in general are "typically of low quality".

• So, the question for uninvolved editors, is - does this constitute OR?

DigitalC (talk) 01:20, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Please note: According to DigitalC, the text is appropriate for citing spinal manipulation. There is consensus that spinal manipulation is directly related to chiropractic. QuackGuru 05:26, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, that diff is referring to a different problem, which I have not raised here. I do not think that the text above is appropriate anywhere. DigitalC (talk) 05:39, 6 November 2008 (UTC). It is also a misrepresentation of my comments - The article where the claim might be appropriate, and whether the claim itself is OR are two different problems - I have never stated that the text itself is appropriate. Please don't bring other disputes into this, and please respect that I am asking for input from uninvolved editors. DigitalC (talk) 06:02, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Shorter summary

• PMID 16574972 states Numerous systematic reviews of SM are available but they frequently arrive at vastly different conclusions. This source is therefore an excellent citation to support the statement that Many controlled clinical studies of spinal manipulation (SM) are available, but their results disagree,
• PMID 16596892 examined trials on tension-type headache, cervicogenic headache, and migraine and stated Methodological scores ranged from 35 to 56 points out of a theoretical maximum of 100 points, indicating an overall poor methodology of the studies.
• PMID 18404113 states that none of the available trials on lower back pain used the best method available - expertise-based randomized trial design.

More citations on this point could be added, for example PMID 15989112 which states The effectiveness of spinal manipulation as a treatment for back pain remains uncertain and controversial. This is because of methodological weakness in many of the published clinical trials and also because of markedly opposing interpretations of the primary data by different reviewers. or PMID 8568990, which reviewed studies on lower back pain and stated Methodological quality was assessed using a standardized criteria list applied independently by two assessors (range, 0% to 100%). ..The methodological quality was low, with a median score of 23%. but I'm happy enough with how the current sources support the text. With so many sources available, I think the authors probably selected these three since they are the most recent reviews to address the topic. Tim Vickers (talk) 17:09, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Per WP:MEDRS, we are using the latest reviews available for the chiropractic article. QuackGuru 17:45, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

The issue being raised here is not the first half of the sentence. I don't see how raising it here makes this a shorter summary, more just an obfuscation of the issue.

• PMID 16596892 only looked at 12 studies, ones which were focused on treatment of headaches. To extrapolate the narrow claims they made to an overall claim about studies in general is blatant OR.
• PMID 18404113 only states that none of them used "the best method available", not that they are of low quality (something can be high quality, without being 'the best').
• PMID 15989112 says that many of the trials are methodologically weak, not that the trials are typically weak. I would support changing the wording to say that "many are weak", because that would be reliably sourced.

I don't know how you can be happy with how the current sources support the text when none of the sources actually support the text. DigitalC (talk) 22:28, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

That's my opinion, given as somebody who has not written any of the chiropractic article. If you don't like my opinion, I'm sure other people will comment, and perhaps other people's views on this will be closer to yours. Tim Vickers (talk) 23:26, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Tim, neither yours nor QuackGuru's opinion here are "outside opinions". You both have contributed in your own ways to the discussions at chiropractic. Please consider that DigitalC has specifically requested outside opinions here and that perhaps you and QuackGuru are interfering his/her goal here. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 05:05, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree with the odd idea that commenting on an article that I have not contributed a single word to is somehow interfering with a call for outside opinions, but as I said, I do hope other uninvolved editors comment as well. Tim Vickers (talk) 15:53, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Poster child for OR

United States Senate elections, 2010 is largely comprised of unreferenced speculation and POV info. My own opinion is it needs to be hacked apart and probably 80% of its content deleted with extreme prejudice. Thoughts?  Frank  |  talk  17:10, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely. Most of that is like predicting a film will be made to come out in 2010, it's crystal ball gazing. Quite a few 'If x then y' statements. dougweller (talk) 17:32, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

OK, I boldly hacked and slashed it (not all my edits), removing about half of it by byte size. (Additional help would be welcome!)  Frank  |  talk  02:10, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

John Lott

I really would like help with this as whenever I remove any OR it gets replaced. The replaced text here [9] seems clearly OR, as does this whole section [10]. I don't want to get into an edit war which is why I have come here to get some comments. Thanks. dougweller (talk) 06:48, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Art punk

Users keep reverting to version of the article that talks about subgenres that could not be found to be based of off this type of music. There were citation needed tags up for a week for this and none could be found, but people are still reverting back to that version.

To quote another user "I think there is some original research here in classifying subgenres of art punk, and I don't see a lot of sources that back up the assertion that these are actually subgenres of art punk. Where sources exist specifically for art-punk these should be in the article, and if bands that have sources to support 'art-punk' as a description also have sources that use these subgenres as descriptions, that would give some legitimacy to associating these genres as part of art punk, but it needs to be demonstrated. Generally, I think effort needs to go into finding sources that specifically refer to 'art punk', and the article should then be based on that."

Could some of you weigh in on what should be done with the article?Hoponpop69 (talk) 01:35, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Food Chemical News source used in aspartame controversy

I started a thread over at RS/N about this source, but the suggestion at the talk page by ScienceApologist is that this is original synthesis. The article is entitled "Aspartame Adverse Reaction Reports Down in 1994 From 1985 Peak". Since the controversy centers around the health effects of aspartame, it is hard to see why this is synthesis. The information added:[11]]

In 1995, FDA Epidemiology Branch Chief Thomas Wilcox reported that aspartame complaints represented 75% of all reports of adverse reactions to substances in the food supply from 1981 to 1995. He stated that "there is still concern" about the substance and that "some people have an intolerance [to aspartame]".

II | (t - c) 18:21, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

The article does not reference any "aspartame controversy". Therefore using it as evidence of any kind of "asparatame controversy" is baldly original research. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:02, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

That's what we call wikilawyering. The article has plenty of sources, including the ones which say aspartame is safe, which do not use the words "aspartame controversy". Wilcox mentions "concerns". Is he not talking about a controversy? Anyway, let's let uninvolved people comment. That's what this is for. You've said this is synthesis, but you're misusing or misinterpreting what synthesis is. Synthesis is when you take two sources and make a synthetic claim from them. This takes one source and the language that it uses directly. As far the source being directly related -- its title pretty much says it. The source is about the reported adverse health effects from aspartame. These are at the center of the controversy around aspartame.II | (t - c) 23:33, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I haven't read the source, but on the face of it, II seems to have the better case. The aspartame controversy, legitimate or otherwise, is about claims that aspartame has adverse health effects. So, this report appears relevant, and the absence of the words "aspartame controversy" doesn't change this. OTOH, it's important to be sure that the FDA position is represented correctly. For example, saying "there is still concern" might mean that "the FDA is still concerned", or "even though aspartame is safe, there is still public concern", or someting in between.JQ (talk) 05:49, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for; for a little while, I was beginning to think I must be crazy. The source is a bit dated; I believe the source said the FDA also stopped taking these reports when related aspartame in 1995 (although I can't check until Monday when I have access to my workplace database). I believe the most recent source is a 1999 article in the FDA Consumer, where the reporter states that the FDA regards it as basically safe and well-tested, and that is in the lead of the article. But that statement doesn't invalidate Wilcox's comments, or the fact that there have been a lot of adverse health effect reports. These reports were either generated by the controversy or caused the controversy; either way, clearly they are very directly related to the controversy! As far as the concern referenced by Wilcox, it is not clear whether he was talking about public concern or agency concern, but it's probably a bit of both, and it's probably outside of our purview to interpret exactly what he means. Anyway, I should probably try to keep the discussion to a less intimidating size for newer uninvolved people. II | (t - c) 07:33, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

People should not be commenting without reading the source. ScienceApologist (talk) 09:27, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. the purpose of this noticeboard is to allow uninvolved editors to comment. If the issue is clearly presented, they can make general comments without going into details. MaxPont (talk) 14:04, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

In particular, this user is doing a textbook case of synthesis: "if the sources cited are not directly related to the article subject, then the editor is engaged in original research." The source is directly related to reports of allergies to aspartame: NOT the aspartame controversy. If you can find a third-party source which indicates that this source is somehow relevant to the aspartame controversy, then that would allow us to consider your proposal (as it would at least no longer be an original research claim).ScienceApologist (talk) 09:36, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

II has an obviuos case here, the wikilawyering by ScienceApologist above is twisting words and terms in a ridiculous way.MaxPont (talk) 14:04, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

This question only arises because Aspartame controversy has been forked from Aspartame in an unhelpful way (POV-fork). The whole of the controversy article should be merged back into Aspartame. But if that would result in an overly long article - I don't think it would - then the sub-article should be Health effects of aspartame. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:56, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

IF so, the issue should not be discussed here. BTW, the article recently went through a deletion review[12] resulting in a blatant Keep decision according to WP:snowball.MaxPont (talk) 08:47, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

If the source is "directly related to reports of allergies to aspartame", why does the source never use the word 'allergies'? Did you even read the source? What are the last two words in it? II | (t - c) 01:36, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikilawyering. The source says "there is still concern". Sounds like another way to say "controversy" to me. Squidfryerchef (talk) 04:19, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree. The "magic words" test will never work with many article titles, especially controversial ones where the article is given a name that approximates NPOV and most of the sources will have anything but a neutral POV. The source may still be inappropriate for other reasons, but that it doesn't use the exact phrase of the article title is a technicality at best. SDY (talk) 08:48, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

A discussion regarding the primary source or secondary source classification of highway maps

Wikipedia talk:No original research#Regarding maps being "primary sources" according to this policy --Rschen7754 (T C) 06:00, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Paul McKenna

An editor continues to return this material to the article which appears to be violation of WP:SYN [13]. i.e. Taking sources talking about validity of particual degrees from a university and applying such reasoning to the subject of the article. I have reached my revert limit, and would request the OR material be removed and the page semi protected to prevent continued IP vandalism. -- The Red Pen of Doom 13:01, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

A paragraph about the use of the terms Wilderness acquired diarrhea and Wilderness diarrhea

Is the following paragraph original research? Thanks.

"Use of the terms 'wilderness acquired diarrhea' and 'wilderness diarrhea' has been limited to a small number of journal articles although it has been the subject of many. The term 'wilderness acquired diarrhea' has appeared in articles where the traveller is infected during a wilderness trip and may have symptoms during or after the trip, whereas the term "wilderness diarrhea" has appeared exclusively in articles where the trips are long enough so that the symptoms most likely appear during the trip. But this is not clearly definitive because of the small number of articles that use the terms."

Please note that the above referenced articles are the only ones that I know of that have used these terms.

--Bob K31416 (talk) 21:53, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

It could be considered a synthesis to make that extrapolation. You could maybe allude to the point youre making by quoting the sources in a certain style without adding any assumptions, i.e. "Account X talked about wilderness diarrhea. Account Y, about short trips, talked about the risk of wilderness-acquired diarrhea", with no more elaboration. That doesn't exactly come out with the point you were trying to make, but it doesn't contradict it either and leaves room to flesh it out if sources are found for your point. But how wide is the scope of the article? We dont want to get into an "undue weight" problem either. Squidfryerchef (talk) 04:34, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your response. I'm interested in your suggestion. Please copy the paragraph, paste it below, and edit it the way you think it should be. Thanks. --Bob K31416 (talk) 04:54, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

P.S. Re your questions, you can check that at the article where the paragraph came from, Wilderness acquired diarrhea. Also, please note that we don't have any references that specifically define the terms. There are no references that specifically say that the terms mean the same thing or that they mean different things. All we have to go on as far as the references are concerned was described in the paragraph. As far as I can see, the paragraph is not concluding what the meaning of terms is but is simply presenting what the state of the situation is regarding the limited use of the terms. --Bob K31416 (talk) 12:50, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

The first sentence is unreferenced, and likely original research. The references need to verify what the text is stating, which is "The term 'wilderness acquired diarrhea' has appeared in articles...". If the references don't state this, and you are stating this based on the articles (that include the term), then it is original research. One shouldn't be describing articles, rather summarizing & paraphrasing them. DigitalC (talk) 00:30, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Economic freedom

Are claims that economic freedom is "controversial term" and that "As with freedom generally, there are various definitions, but no universally accepted concept of economic freedom" original research if they are based on this quote: "The content of freedom has been a subject of such controversy over the centuries that it would be extremely foolish to expect to resolve all that [here]. It would be equally a mistake to look for one "authentic" characterization of the basic idea of freedom."?

Is it original research to use sources that say "freedom" as sources for claims about "economic freedom"? One user argues that "Any source that says "freedom" could be enhanced (or harmed) by certain economic policies, is talking about economic freedom." To me that doesn't make sense because economic policies can affect wide range of freedoms. For example, if some country would introduce a special tax that targets independent publishers who oppose government that measure would affect freedom of speech. -- Vision Thing -- 12:16, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I would agree that "Economic freedom" is a controvercial term. But it would be best to find a source that says this specifically. I would avoid using sources that talk about "Freedom" in general. Blueboar (talk) 18:15, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

The argument is actually that the sources are discussing economic freedom, but they don't happen to string the words together there. In context, it makes sense. These sources, by the way, are: Bronfenbrenner, Martin (1955), "Two Concepts of Economic Freedom", Ethics 65 (3) and Sen, Amartya, Rationality and Freedom, p. 9. I haven't looked at them closely just now (or I can't remember exactly what they said), but I believe that this is similar to the wikilawyering seen above with Food Chemical News. Since "economic" and "freedom" are not stringed together exactly, even though they appear on the same page, this is "OR". Anyway, Vision Thing, where exactly is that quote?

Anyway, I just looked through Brofenbrenner. He says on page 161: "At the heart of the controversy ... on the nature of economic freedom". Look it up. If you want the full-text, drop a note on my talkpage and email me. Matter seems settled with that quote. II | (t - c) 21:53, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I'll be in a bad position to actively defend my additions for the next few weeks, planning on spending some un-wiki time. If anyone wants the fuller context on whether material in the Economic freedom article is OR, I suggest checking out the talk page and archive. CRETOG8(t/c) 21:59, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

ImperfectlyInformed, quote is from Rationality and Freedom p.9 and it was provided by Cretog8 on my request. As for Bronfenbrenner, he is a good source for describing views in the history section because his work is from 1955, and in my view he can't be used to describe situation today. -- Vision Thing -- 08:39, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

As is already evident, this has nothing to do with WP:OR, and everything to do with WP:OWN. VisionThing is clutching at every possible straw to exclude anything that would contradict his preferred view. Most ludicrously, VT wants to exclude Franklin D. Roosevelt as not notable enough. JQ (talk) 09:28, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Do you have some actual arguments concerning OR, or you came here just to slant me? -- Vision Thing -- 09:50, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I think we can leave it at that, and see if any uninvolved readers want to take a look.JQ (talk) 12:03, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Second intifada

I'm having a dispute with another editor at Second intifada. He has added links to a series of articles as references for the sentence "Some view the start to be the September 28 2000 riots and injuries soon after Ariel Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount/Al-Haram As-Sharif." The sources are descriptions of the riots, and are reliable enough primary sources regarding them, but do not actually make the claim that September 28 was the start of the Second intifada, or that that "some view" it as the start. I've removed the references as a violation of WP:SYNTH, and potentially of WP:V. However, another editor insists that because they are reliable sources, they can be added "as description of the events". The discussion is here: Talk:Second_Intifada#WP:NOR_based_on_primary_sources. I'd appreciate third party views. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:18, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Typographic terminology

There is a dispute between myself and another editor on Template talk:Typography terms, and there is a great need for input from other editors. I believe the issue is related to WP:NPOV/undue weight and WP:OR. The argument is whether to include the link Gaelic script as a typographic classification. Is it original research to create a novel classification system that is not represented in any of our sources? Additionally, is it undue weight to link to Gaelic script, when the vast majority of typographic texts don't even mention it? Only two sources have been provided so far, and apparently neither one is even discussing typographic classifications... scratch that, a third source has been provided, but I have generally ignored it as it is self-published on the user's personal website. And while not the COI noticeboard, perhaps that is another issue at play here as well. Anyway, there seems to be quite a large number of policy points tangled up in this mess, and both myself and the other party have been quite verbose on the talk page. I apologize for that, and would greatly appreciate the time anyone could put into weeding through and examining this dispute. Thanks!-Andrew c ^[talk] 14:21, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm the other editor. :-) I believe that Andrew C is making far too much about NPOV/"Undue Weight"/OR. I'll try to summarize the arguments.

1. Classification of typefaces is a fairly marginal activity in any case. In 1954 Vox classified both Roman types and Blackletter types. He overlooked Gaelic types but as these were confined to Ireland this is not particularly surprising.
2. Most books on typography (and there are not that many of those either) don't attempt to classify; they are concerned with other matters. A book may discuss typographic styles without attempting to put them into a classificatory framework.
3. In 1924 E. W. Lynam published The Irish Character in Print, a discussion of 21 different Gaelic typefaces, ranging from 1571 to 1922. He describes the fonts and their differences but does not attempt to apply a vocabulary of subclassification. He does clearly distinguish Gaelic types from Roman types, and he also mentions the analogous distinction of Blackletter types from Roman types. He does not equate Blackletter types and Gaelic types.
4. In 1990 Mícheál Ó Searcóid presented at a TeX User's Group conference The Irish Alphabet, an article on the origin, history and present-day usage of the Irish typeface.
5. In 1992 Dermot McGuinne (head of the department of Visual Communications at the College of Marketing and Design in Dublin) published Irish Type Design: A history of printing types in the Irish character. He likewise describes carefully the different features of different Gaelic typefaces, in ten chapters about the different Gaelic type styles, and one chapter, "The Roman v. the Irish character" in which he also clearly distinguishes Gaelic from Roman typefaces. He does not attempt to apply a vocabulary of subclassification.
6. Brendan Leen of the Cregan Library, St Patrick's College, Drumcondra, published a web page Four centuries of printing in the Irish character; it is not about Roman types or Blackletter types.
7. In 2005 Mathew D. Staunton's article Trojan Horses and Friendly Faces: Irish Gaelic Typography as Propaganda appeared in La revue LISA (ISSN 1762-6153. Vol. III; n°1. 2005).
8. In 2000, Michael Everson (that's me) published a History and classification of Gaelic typefaces in which a subclassification of Gaelic typefaces was proposed. This has evidently been considered to be useful and at least somewhat authoritative as it has at least been linked to by Luc Devroye, Ciarán Ó Duibhín, Vincent Morley, Daveth Fox, and has been added to the articles corresponding to Gaelic type in Italian and Spanish. (I guess you could claim that was an uncritical translation, but one might assume that the Italian and Spanish editors looked at the site and knew what they were doing. The article was published the year before the Wikipedia came into being, and four years before I ever started editing on the Wikipedia.
9. In 2002 Vincent Kinane's A Brief History of Printing and Publishing in Ireland was published by the National Print Museum of Ireland. This does not discuss classification, but it is interesting to note that the first book printed in Ireland was The Boke of Common Praier published in Blackletter in English in 1550. The first book printed in Irish was Aibidil gaeoidheilge agus Caiticiosma printed in 1571 in a hybrid Gaelic type (the first Gaelic typeface).
10. Everyone seems to agree that Blackletter type can be subclassified as (at least) Textualis, Rotunda, Schwabacher, and Fraktur
11. Everyone seems to agree that Roman type can be subclassified as (at least) Old style, Transitional, Modern, Slab serif, and Sans-serif
12. Everyone who knows about Gaelic type (minority type as it is) seems to agree that it can be subclassified as Angular, Uncial, Grotesque. And those who know about Gaelic type certainly do differentiate it from Roman type and Blackletter type.
13. Andrew C suggests that all of the above may violate WP:OR. But I am not Lynam and Ó Searcóid or McGuinne; nor am I Staunton or Kinane or Leen, and they all distinguished Gaelic type from Roman type. My 2000 classification draws on external sources: the fonts themselves, Lynam, and McGuinne. Distinguishing Gaelic from Roman and Roman from Blackletter and Blackletter from Gaelic is typeface classification, and the sources cited above all make those distinctions. Sub-classifying any one of these forms is quite verifiable. If one says that Roman type X is "slab-serif", you can look at its serifs and see if this is true. If one says that Gaelic type Y is "angular", you can look at its "a" and see if this is true.
14. Andrew C suggests that my activity here may not violate WP:NPOV. It is difficult to rationalize this alongside Wikipedia policy regarding WP:EXR. The central question here is "Is Gaelic type a top-level class alongside Blackletter type and Roman type?" Am I "neutral" as far as this question goes? Well... no: I am quite sure that these three classes are distinct, even if Gaelic is the "smallest". But this view (that Gaelic type ≠ Roman type) is held by everyone, specialist or not, in Ireland who has had anything to do with the cló Gaelach.
15. ISO 15924 gives unique codes Latn to generic or Roman-type-specific text, and (We agree that the Roman alphabet and the Gaelic alphabet are both the same at the level of the Latin script, but Roman type and Gaelic type are distinct. One of the chief identifiers is that the former is based on Carolingian letterforms, while the latter is based on Insular letterforms. This is not Original Research, either. It is common knowledge.
16. Andrew C suggests that "undue weight" is given to Gaelic type if it is considered a top-level class alongside Blackletter and Roman type. Now, nobody disputes that Gaelic type is in the minority. It was used in only one country for a minority language for 400 years. It has, however, got unique origins in insular letterforms and has had its own internal history of development. Wales' criterion is "If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents"; well, I have named prominent adherents in Gaelic typography.
17. I'd better bring this to an end. WP:EX comes to mind. Though my 2000 page is on my website, others have cited it, and Luc Devroye even used its terminology in his own description of various Gaelic typefaces. I don't know how many experts in Gaelic typography there are. Morley and Ó Duibhín and McGuinne are. Bolger will lecture on them tomorrow in Dublin (I'm looking forward to it). A number of people consider me to have some expertise in this area. Assuming that I do... I have still endeavoured to show how other specialists have distinguished Gaelic from Blackletter from Roman. I think I have a hard time understanding Andrew C's continuing doubt.
18. I'm glad to have this opportunity to discuss these matters. Do I have a conflict of interest? I do not believe so. I have an interest: to ensure that the Typography articles in the Wikipedia describe typeface classification accurately, and that Gaelic typefaces are not overlooked. -- Evertype·✆ 19:31, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
19. I have just learned this morning that Brian Doyle cited my 2000 Classification in his Master's Thesis Scríoḃ na nDaoine: Orthographic Variation, Ideology, and Literacy Practices in Irish for the Faculty of the Department of Linguistics, Northeastern Illinois University. -- Evertype·✆ 09:20, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure to what extent it proves anything, but Image:Scripts in Europe (1901).jpg, published long before Michael or any of the rest of us were born, seems to put the Gaelic script on a par with Fraktur. —Angr 09:30, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

The rubrics are: German Alphabet (Fraktur); Latin Alphabet (Antiqua); Limited use of Fraktur along with predominant Antiqua; Irish script along with predominant Antiqua; Cyrillic Alphabet; Greek Alphabet; Arabic Alphabet; Kalmuck-Mongolian Script. (Boy, I'd love to have an original of that framed at home.) I agree with Angr: This classifies Blackletter type distinct from Roman type distinct from Gaelic type. -- Evertype·✆ 10:53, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

From reading the above, it sounds as if the basic classification is verifiable to reliable sources, but the subclassifications are not and may rely on OR. Blueboar (talk) 13:50, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree. The subclassification of Gaelic type into Angular, Uncial, and Grotesque may have been devised by Michael Everson, but it has been published outside of Wikipedia already - indeed it was published before Wikipedia even existed. WP:COS says, "If an editor has published the results of his or her research in a reliable publication, the editor may cite that source while writing in the third person and complying with our neutrality policy." Michael's subclassification has been published, and has even been cited by others in their own research. Just because a Wikipedian is the one who has published the work doesn't make the work an unreliable source, and certainly doesn't make repeating it here OR. —Angr 14:18, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Unless I missed something, since when is "uploading to a personal website" the same thing as being "published". Fails WP:RS. As for being cited by others, these are blogs and personal websites that don't even "cite" the classification scheme that Evertype has proposed we include on the template (Angular, Uncial, Grotesque). I have to ask, are we reading the same links? -Andrew c ^[talk] 14:27, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Per WP:SPS, "Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. However, caution should be exercised when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so. For example, a reliable self-published source on a given subject is likely to have been cited on that subject as authoritative by a reliable source." I trust we can all agree that Michael is an established expert on this topic, and his subclassification has been cited by others, not only in their blogs and personal websites, but in a master's thesis as well. —Angr 15:30, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Replying to Blueboar's comment it sounds as if the basic classification is verifiable to reliable sources. Evertype proposes that the three basic classifications are "Blackletter" "Roman" and "Gaelic". Not a single source mentions just these three in such a manner. NOT A SINGLE SOURCE. Sure we have multiple sources, when discussing the history of printing in the Irish language which discuss the use of two different character styles (in some texts referred to as alphabets), Irish vs. Roman. Then we have other sources that discuss blackletter along side serif typefaces, sans serif, slab serf, etc. How is mixing these sources to come up with a novel classification scheme not found anywhere (in published, reliable sources) NOT original synthesis? We have to also keep in mind that Irish is not unique in that typographers cut special typefaces in order to print in other languages as well. I think there could be a place for the Gaelic type link on the template, surely, but the current state, and the expanded Evertype proposal is original synthesis, and undue weight.-Andrew c ^[talk] 14:33, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Panzuriel

There is a dispute on the about whether the OR cleanup template is appropriate for the article Panzuriel. The article itself contains such unsupported opinions as:

"Although Panzuriel's worshippers generally have no creation myths of their own, other sources attribute to Panzuriel a protean creative power. According to myth, Panzuriel acts with the other gods to strengthen the evil races of the sea. Because the others accept Panzuriel's help, they grow increasingly under his control."

I would be grateful if someone independent of the dispute would make their views known on the article's talk page. --Gavin Collins (talk) 17:33, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Responded on talk page. Blueboar (talk) 19:07, 19 November 2008 (UTC)