{{hat|{{user|PreserveOurHistory}} is indefinitely topic-banned from all pages and discussions concerning India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan, broadly construed. '''[[User:Lord Roem|Lord Roem]]''' ~ ([[User talk:Lord Roem|talk]]) 17:20, 2 January 2023 (UTC)}}
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 [[Word count#Software|words]] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small>
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 [[Word count#Software|words]] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small>
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*The October block unfortunately didn't lead to any change in behavior. Agree with an indef TBAN given the earlier recent disruptive conduct and the 1RR violation ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Indo-Pakistani_War_of_1965&diff=prev&oldid=1130529647 1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Indo-Pakistani_War_of_1965&diff=prev&oldid=1130626962 2]). '''[[User:Lord Roem|Lord Roem]]''' ~ ([[User talk:Lord Roem|talk]]) 19:52, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
*The October block unfortunately didn't lead to any change in behavior. Agree with an indef TBAN given the earlier recent disruptive conduct and the 1RR violation ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Indo-Pakistani_War_of_1965&diff=prev&oldid=1130529647 1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Indo-Pakistani_War_of_1965&diff=prev&oldid=1130626962 2]). '''[[User:Lord Roem|Lord Roem]]''' ~ ([[User talk:Lord Roem|talk]]) 19:52, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
*Agree with indef TBAN. I see no evidence the editor will change their behaviour. [[User:Doug Weller|<span style="color:#070">Doug Weller</span>]] [[User talk:Doug Weller|talk]] 14:35, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
*Agree with indef TBAN. I see no evidence the editor will change their behaviour. [[User:Doug Weller|<span style="color:#070">Doug Weller</span>]] [[User talk:Doug Weller|talk]] 14:35, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
{{hab}}
==Maitrey M. Telang==
==Maitrey M. Telang==
Revision as of 17:21, 2 January 2023
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Request concerning Dev0745
User who is submitting this request for enforcement
Problem with all these 4 diffs is that the cited source,[2] does not support the wording that "But muslim clerics of Jharkhand forbid music and dance in weddings, terming it as unislamic practice". The source only talks about "A group of Muslim clerics".
Response: Dev0745 was already warned by Johnuniq that if he engaged in misrepresentation of sources then he will be topic banned from entire subject of India, Pakistan and Afghanistan.[4][5]
Below response by Dev0745 shows he engaged in WP:OR and he is still misrepresenting the source.
How "Some muslim clerics ban dance and music during weddings in Jharkhand terming it as un-Islamic Practices" would be correct representation? Jharkhand is huge and the source talks about only "a group" of cleric in Dhanbad district.[6]
This is why I believe that Dev0745 should be topic banned. He is just not able to edit in this area with this much incompetence. Dympies (talk) 05:28, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Seraphimblade: I participated on talk page (See Talk:Nagpuria_people#Focus) and found that there are serious conduct issues with Dev0745 that's why I attempted to tell him about policies and guidelines on his talk page but he failed to grasp. This user is being told for over 4 years not to add irrelevant content to Nagpuria people by multiple editors. Fact that this user is still not able to grasp important policies such as WP:OR, WP:UNDUE and prefers edit warring over a prolonged period even after getting topic banned and blocked (recently) and is still repeating same problems, then what else we are waiting for? He is editing serious subjects yet he still not willing to represent sources correctly or let others fix his poor edits in violation of WP:OR. Dympies (talk) 12:03, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Dev0745
1.Source mention Y Haplogroup H* 18.18% and 9.09% H1 among Gujarat Bhils in table:1, which makes H haplogroup 27.27%.[8] So 27.27% is correct. The page Y-DNA haplogroups in populations of South Asia has also same figure.
2. Article title is "Clerics Term Dance And Music During Weddings In Jharkhand's Dhanbad 'Un-Islamic Practices.[9] So I had written what the article say that muslim clerics forbid music and dance in weddings, terming it as unislamic. According to article The clerics have said that marriages would be solemnized according to Islamic religion and there would be no dance, playing of DJ music and display of fireworks, while saying those violating diktat would be fined. But later in article it is mentioned that a group of clerics has banned “un-Islamic practices” which I not clearly noticed. So I think sentence should be corrected to "Some muslim clerics ban dance and music during weddings in Jharkhand terming it as un-Islamic Practices. Minor mistakes happens in the interpretation due to not reading article thoroughly. About the WP:Synth issue, I have added what sources say in different sentences. Dev0745 (talk) 15:56, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think the user Dympies has some issue in explaining his/her point to other users as he/she may sometimes right but not always. Dympies's first point i.e terming 27.27% of Y Haplogroup among bhil as incorrect is wrong as according to data table it is correct. The second is my minor misinterpretation as in palce of muslim clerics, some muslim clerics should be added. So it is minor mistake of interpretation. I think there are chances of such minor mistake of interpretation by any editor. Also I had exam, so I have not read Wikipedia policy fully. I only know few basic policy. I will edit Wikipedia after reading Wikipedia policy fully.
Dympies, if you are not agree with my edits, then you can edit or remove it. I am not against your edits but what you had done is reverted my edits of 4 years without verifing it which is against Wikipedia policy and you seem to remove content but failed to explain your edits in accordance with Wikipedia policy. Dev0745 (talk) 12:38, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Dympies, It is not explanation of Sitush but your.
The reply by Dympies about poor behaviour about me is Dympies lack of WP:civility. According to Wikipedia policy huge content should not be removed without discussion. Terming and removal of all content and source [here] added during 4 years as WP:OR and WP:UNDUE is not correct as many were well sourced. Some were unreliable source as I was not aware that British era source are unreliable. Later I removed them. Dev0745 (talk) 18:08, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Srijanx22, The user Chaipau was added Adivasia for Assam Sadri language even if it is not mention by scholars. Later he agreed to stick to scholarly source by removing it. See Talk:People of Assam#Tea Labourers. It mention Kol means Pig although it is not theory but another meaning. I was not aware about which is reliable sources then while editing page Khortha language, see:[10]. In page Lohra, the source is pdf of 1936 about Scheduled Caste. then I was not aware that British era source are unreliable. It mentioned those profess tribal religion should not be included in Schedule Caste. Also tribe were those who were not following Hinduism (Brahmanism another word for hinduism during 18th century as Brhamins were spritual authority of hindu religion). See the print article, During British period "Hindu is anyone who is not “European, Armenian, Moghul, Persian or other foreign descent, who is a member of a recognised caste, who acknowledges the spiritual authority of Brahmans (priestly caste), who venerates or at least refuses to kill or harm kine, and does not profess any creed or religion which the Brahman forbids him to profess”"[11]. The another word used for hinduism in 18th and 19th century and still used is Brahminism.[1] Although source not mention Brahminism but the people were included in tribe list those who were not acknowledged spiritual authority of Brahmins. Dev0745 (talk) 13:44, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Reply to comment by Srijanx22, I was unaware about reliable sources and WP:Synth. I am aware about WP:OR. Still I am unware about many policies. But I am trying to learn. I try as much as to follow Wikipedia policy. I will be cautious and try to follow Wikipedia policy in future.Dev0745 (talk) 08:15, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
^Maritain, Jacques (2005). An Introduction to Philosophy. Rowman & Littlefield. pages 6–7 footnote 1. ISBN978-0-7425-5053-7. This [the primitive religion of the Vedas] resulted, after a period of confusion, in the formation of a new system, Brahmanism (or Hinduism), which is essentially a philosophy, a metaphysic, a work of human speculation, ...; [footnote 1]... the neuter, Brahman, as the one impersonal substance.
Statement by (Bookku)
I did not get word 'Bhil' in simple search of the cited source, if it is in attached files then not clear. In spite of reservations about Dev0745 why it can not be discussed @ article talk as a different point and RfC there after if needed is not clear.
WP policy WP:CALC allows simple mathematical calculation , but if that can be applied here WP:RfC is best thing.
Some people of a particular tribe are Muslim and Some Muslim clerics have reservations about some cultural practices (without naming tribe) are differently sourced and Dev0745 need to be explained about WP:Synth issue. A simple 3rd opinion would have been helpful.
Dev0745's attitude I will listen only to admins is not correct. They (actually both) should try other DR options like WP:3O & WP:DRN. And then WP:RfC (IMO through RfCs I learned many things and despite limitation it's a great equalizer)
I came across both users at different discussions and found them to be assertive. And when two assertive people come across each other then acrimony is possible. No one can eat whole cake of issues, breaking the cake of problems in single single separate issues and following WP:Dispute resolution process is only the solution.
H* 18.18% and 9.09% H1 Checked and verified in Table 1 (after @ Dev0745 updated their comment for the same. I am not expert to say if their mathematical addition of H* and H1 is allowed or not while reporting genetics) Bookku (talk) 10:59, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
After Dympies' latest comment I revisited, [12] of the article Nagpuria people indicates they co–operated other users by removing some old sources content as asked for, they have entered good dialogue @ Talk:Dom (caste) they seem to have engaged in reasonable dialogue with another user after initial disagreements. I, myself, came across Dev0745 since they had removed some of my content for not being relevant some part I agreed some they agreed afterwards @ Talk WP:DUE. They are still to understand some of WP:RS policies which may need some mentoring some cool headed discourse with them, IMO that is achievable with due WP:DR processes. Bookku (talk) 14:35, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Dev0745 is very frequent with his misrepresentation of sources. It was was already called out on October - November 2022 at Talk:People of Assam#Tea Labourers. Instead of agreeing with the problem he was edit warring by terming another editor's edit as "please don't speard propaganda".[13]
On Kol people he described "some grievances has been come out from the adivasi leaders that the Biharis used to call them 'Kol' which means pig, that in turn aroused bitterness and hatred against the Biharis" (from source), a lame slur as: "According to another theory, Kol means Pig."[14] But there is no "theory".
He used completely unreliable source here on 7 November.
I also recall Lohra (tribe) which he created on 30 October. Here, he has made yet another misrepresentation of another source by claiming "those who were following tribal religion or not following Brahminism were included in Backward tribes", contrary to the source that makes no mention of "Brahminism" or even its broader form "Hinduism".[15] It mentions "Buddhism" (a different religion) but it couldn't be a typo because it talks about "person who professes Buddhism or a tribal religion" while "following tribal religion or not following Brahminism" gives a completely different picture. The text version of this PDF can be accessed here.
I have read response from Dev0745 and I believe that his explanations fail to provide any confidence if he is willing to be careful with his representation of sources or even understand that this is a collaborative project. I am more confident that a topic from Indian social communities is much needed for this editor. Srijanx22 (talk) 03:22, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Statement by (username)
References
Result concerning Dev0745
This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
I'm not terribly impressed with the filer here, Dympies, calling another editor "incompetent" twice in this very request. If that's your usual level of civility in discourse, I suggest it improve rapidly, or you may be the one facing sanctions. Other than that, this looks like a content dispute, and those aren't solved here. I would first strongly suggest that discussions regarding content be held on article talk pages, not user talk pages, as that allows other editors to more easily see the discussion and participate, so to begin with, take the discussion to the appropriate article talk pages, and if you can't come to agreement there, seek dispute resolution like a third opinion or request for comment. That said, Dev0745, be mindful of policies like no original research and, since I notice repeated use of phrases like "it is said", weasel wording when you are editing. You've already been warned about those issues by two highly experienced editors, so please slow it down and make sure the references you are citing explicitly support the material you add to articles, without any need for interpretation. If these problems continue, both of you may find yourselves taking a break from this area entirely. SeraphimbladeTalk to me11:42, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Having seen things play out here, unless any uninvolved admin objects, I would close this with a logged warning to Dev0745 to use only reliable sources, to familiarize themself with the policies and existing consensus regarding such sources in the topic area, and to be more willing to listen to other editors. To Dympies, I would give an informal warning regarding civility in discussions—even when one is right, civility is still a requirement. SeraphimbladeTalk to me13:02, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Scientelensia
User who is submitting this request for enforcement
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
30 Nov 2022: Adds an entire paragraph to a Featured article with a laundry list of actor positions (content that was specifically rejected at the widely attended Spring 2022 FAR)
I have never before filed a request for enforcement of discretionary sanctions, and am unaware if this is the best way to proceed in a case like this, or if I am filing it correctly, but this editor is not engaging article talk and is repeatedly adding sub-par content to a Featured article that saw a widely attended Featured article review this year. With the first two diffs, I understand the new-ish editor may not have been familiar with the FAR, and by the third diff, may still not have understood discretionary sanctions. But by the fourth diff, it appears some stronger guidance is in order. 3RR does not seem to be the appropriate place to seek admin intervention, as the content added has varied. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:20, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Update: I see Scientelensia has now attempted to engage. With a sprained wrist, I have not been in a position to give the extended explanations warranted for a new user since my revert (second diff), still catching up, and am hoping that if others engage with a more detailed explanation of WP:WIAFA and what it means, including the importance of high-quality sourcing and gaining consensus on article talk (for any article), that a warning will suffice here rather than sanctions. I am only now noticing that no one ever welcomed Scientelensia, and that has now been done. The steady drib-drab at JKR can be exhausting to keep up with, so I am going to propose at talk that we add an edit notice.[16]SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:17, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
In terms of the content added, I had no idea what the Spring 2022 FAR was and so did not know that actor positions were not useful as the article stated that leading actors condemned her comments so I thought it would be useful to show which actors condemned her and which ones supported her. Scientelensia (talk) 09:07, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
(I have just discovered this section…) From now, I’ve mainly been making small copy edits on little-used pages and am now using the talk page on bigger ones. I still believe that the JK Rowling article deserves more perspectives despite how well it is written, but if I want to add something I will go on the talk page as this result in the proposed content being considered (I agree this is much better) :D
Sorry Seraphimblade, I just discovered this section before and have not been commenting below since (as you can see from above when I said I had just discovered the section).
I would like to mention here that I added some content which other viewers agreed as useful, but the user above removed it many times, trying to provoke edit warring. In the article, there was a section for Support and a section for Opposition. As the user supported the bill, they removed almost everything in the opposition multiple time, which provoked annoyance from other users who wanted the article to be fair. I did many things the user asked me, such as removing language such as “widely considered” which had previously been in the article, and updating referencing, but the user was warned of edit warring and still did not stop. Scientelensia (talk) 18:20, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
When I say the user above, I mean Sparkle1. I would like to say that most on the talk page either agreed with or helpfully added to the content, whereas Sparkle1 destroyed content from myself and other. I wouldn’t have undid their edits if they added to things and were neutral, but I didn’t want to let a user corrupt others’ experiences when I could do something about it.
I added many things to both Support and Opposition and even a poll conducted by the Scottish Government, but the user had decided that this was not to their taste, and deleted this with no comment on the talk page. As previously requested of me, I reverted this with general consensus on the talk page, provoking Sparkle1 to mercilessly delete content.
User SandyGeorgia calls the below text “individual views”, however, it is true that a higher number of MSPs have not voted against an SNP motion before; this is not individual. In regard to polls, I simply looked up polls about the bill and added them. I mean no offence to this user who is well-established but these are not individual views. If you look at that version of the article you can verify this.
However, nine Members of the Scottish Parliament elected not to vote with the SNP government whip during the voting process, which is known to be the largest rebellion in the SNP's 15-year history in government.[1]
A more recent poll concluded that more than two thirds of Scotland’s voters opposed the bill, and a poll conducted by CARE, an organisation working to prevent self-harm, gambling and suicide, found that 60% of Scots opposed the bill. (This paragraph did include references, but I had to delete them from this post as they didn’t seem to register as above and just made teh text underlined for some reason, sorry)
Once again, I am sorry to have restored content but I did this due to another user’s vandalism, which I believed was inappropriate, as did others in the talk page. Scientelensia (talk) 18:31, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Finally, After the first issue I have been using talk pages when the article is big, you can see this if you look at the Reform Bill's page. Mainly I have been staying away from gender-related topics as they are very loaded but I've used the talk page where necessary. I've learnt that the hard way! Right now though, I plan to edit this page and create one for a village nearby which doesn't have its own. I'll understand any decision you make but I beg you to make it in relation to this and also knowing that the second incident wasn't entirely me and not really related to gender: an edit war could have happened on any article where two people have different POVs. Scientelensia (talk) 09:33, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
To user SandyGeorgia.
The user has been kind and asked me to add references, which I forgot. The changes were approved but I forgot to add referencing. You don't have to punish me for every minor mistake just because I made a sizeable one early on! We should be welcoming new people to wikipedia. I know that we disagreed once but you don't have to make my time on this platform hell! Scientelensia (talk) 19:02, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
@Scientelensia: You mentioned above that you now understand that you should use the talk page for a featured article but I'm hoping that you could respond in some more detail about the actual issue that SandyGeorgia is reporting. That is, what you understand the type of content that should be added to articles and the types of sources that need to be used to support it. The secondary issue is about the talk page, could you please explain when you would go to the talk page to discuss something. Note as well that you have your own section to respond so that all of your comments are kept together, the section has your username in it. Thank you, Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 04:33, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Based on Scientelensia's comments above, and more importantly their actions in now engaging on the talk page, I suggest we close this with no further action required. While I see that there's an argument for an informal warning per Seraphimblade below considering how new Scientelensia is and that they're now engaging appropriately I don't think we really need to. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 00:46, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Based on recent developments at Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill and its talk page (links in SandyGeorgia's section) I now believe that a topic ban is necessary. I'm thinking that, given the issues with Scientelensia's extend beyond the connection between JK Rowling and gender, a broader topic ban from gender-related disputes and from J. K. Rowling would be needed. Given that Scientelensia is a newish editor I'd lean towards making it timelimted (I'm thinking 6-12 months) rather than indefinite so that they can return to this area after gaining some expereince in other topic areas without the need to go through the time consuming appeal process. If problematic editing continues the TBAN can always be extended or reenacted. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 07:22, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Scientelensia's inability to not edit outside of their section does not give me hope that an informal warning will stop the disruption. I am starting to think a logged warning or a topic ban is the way to go --GuerilleroParlez Moi17:17, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Scientelensia, while I'm willing to believe you that you weren't aware of the prior discussion regarding the material you added, that's why you go to the talk page, where someone could have made you aware. Wikipedia is a collaborative project, so once it becomes clear someone disagrees with what you're doing, start a discussion with them rather than just plowing ahead. As long as you're willing to agree to do that going forward, I would be inclined toward just issuing an informal warning in this instance rather than any sanction, but next time please be aware that willingness to engage in discussion is required for participation here (and that's true whether the article in question is an FA or the barest stub). SeraphimbladeTalk to me11:54, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Scientelensia, Guerillero already instructed you to edit only in your own section, as is the standard for AE and contained in the instructions above. That means that in this request, edit only the section entitled "Statement by Scientelensia". Do not again edit in this results section, or any other editor's section. If you continue doing that, I'm going to start wondering whether you're actually listening to what anyone is telling you, or just saying "Yes, yes" to avoid a sanction. SeraphimbladeTalk to me12:15, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I was, anyway, but I'm going to have to take some time to check over the more recent developments. At this point I don't think I'd support closing without even a warning. SeraphimbladeTalk to me17:54, 25 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Vladdy Daddy Silly
User who is submitting this request for enforcement
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
[21] 23 December 2022 — Vexatious wiki-litigator, especially stubborn denialism that that source is both international and academic, seems to be either faking it or they are completely unaware of the source they have deleted from the article, such edits make sense only if they are meant as comedy. It is as if a strawman sockpuppet is making fun of Romanian nationalists.
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Vladdy Daddy Silly
I did not view the source correctly, i've not many time to dedicate to wikipedia and i admit i was wrong. I have nothing to say more.
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Vladdy Daddy Silly
This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
The short response from Vladdy Daddy Silly is noted but as it does not fully address the issues here it does not fully alleviate the concerns I have about their editing. I'm giving Vladdy Daddy Silly a logged warning about edit warring and not engaging in consensus building which can be referred to if there editing continues to be problematic. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 00:17, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Well, their short response above is unfortunately not particularly helpful. If it's true, it's still concerning they just ignored attempts at clarification of the source. That said, given their intermittent editing history, and the limited nature of this particular issue, I'd lean towards a warning. It's hard to gauge on this brief record if there's sufficient disruption to justify a sanction. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 06:24, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
ZaniGiovanni
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning ZaniGiovanni
User who is submitting this request for enforcement
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
20 December Removes a source from a reliable website because the article was published in Baku (Azerbaijan).
21 December Reverts the restoration of the source again for being a Baku based article
19 December Restores incorrectly attributed information from a local Armenian newsletter without verifying (3rd point) the source.
20 December Making 6 reverts within a day on the same article (diffs provided within the linked report)
Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
2 February 2022warned against edit warring and is expected to be more diligent in pages covered by the AA2 DS
15 September 2022banned from the topic area for 2 months for battleground behavior, including highlighting the ethnicity of users they were in a dispute with
On the 2022 blockade of the Republic of Artsakh article, ZaniGiovanni repeatedly removed (diff #1 & #2) an article from JAMnews, a reliable third-party source. ZaniGiovanni asserts that the article is unreliable because it was published in Baku (Azerbaijan) and refers to it as a Baku-based article. Aside from the problematic nature ZaniGiovanni assuming an article is unreliable solely because it was published by someone from Azerbaijan, another red flag here is that ZaniGiovanni doesn't apply the same standards when it is advantageous to their position. Here is ZaniGiovanni using a similar article from the same JAMnews, this time published in Yerevan (Armenia) to add a statement in wiki voice.
ZaniGiovanni was also recently engaged in edit wars on the same article (diff #4). The administrator confirmed that ZaniGiovanni's was edit warring and issued verbal warnings before closing the report as Stale. This is a direct violation of ZaniGiovanni's February warning by El C.
Reply 1
@Rosguill and El C: ZaniGiovanni is not a new user who made a single mistake and was reported, nor is this the first time they have been informed of their problematic behavior. ZaniGiovanni's behavior not only on the pages I've linked to, but also on this page, is a clear violation of WP:TE.
ZaniGiovanni made more than three reverts within 24 hours on the 2022 blockade of the Republic of Artsakh article, as the closing administrator informed them. However, they insist, even here, that their edits weren't edit warring. A textbook example of WP:TE.
Rosguill, your point about the validity of questioning sources would be correct if the actions weren't so blatantly one-sided, which reveals that this questioning isn't done to obtain reliable sources, but rather to protect one viewpoint over another. As evidenced by ZaniGiovanni using the same source when it supported their position ([28]) but questioning it when it did not (diff #1 & #2). (WP:SOURCEGOODFAITH; WP:CPP: They argue that reliable sources are biased while their own preferred sources are neutral.).
Furthermore, in another discussion, ZaniGiovanni was unconcerned with reliability when they referred to the propagandistic website panarmenian.net [29] or pre-election advertisement article by Rachael Rose Luckey on citywatchla.com[30]. A quote from the citywatchla.com:
Los Angeles now has a renewed opportunity to stand with the Armenian-American community of Little Armenia to pressure Los Angeles’ City Hall and the Biden Administration to declare the Republic of Azerbaijan a terrorist state.
When I challenged[31] the sources, ZaniGiovanni told me to familiarise yourself with WP:SEALION[32] and Your "explanation" is just a collection of original remarks with which nobody concurs here[33].
ZaniGiovanni has been warned or sanctioned in this topic area at least 3 times this year alone ([34], [35], [36]). Their topic ban expired a month ago, and they've already been reported for 3RR and at AE in that time. It is perplexing to see how ZaniGiovanni manages to avoid adequate punishment for their infractions repeatedly, despite the fact that no other editor in AA2 has received such leniency in the past. A b r v a g l (PingMe)11:48, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
El C, Tamzin, Rosguill before filing this report, I gave the matter thoughtful consideration - I can assure you that the topic is entirely non-personal; rather, it is a plea for admin involvement in a pattern of behaviour that is incompatible with Wikipedia. I have something to add and feel compelled to add it, therefore I'm requesting an additional response, promising to be concise. A b r v a g l (PingMe)07:15, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Last Reply
The below diffs isn't to debate whether ZaniGiovanni was right, but to demonstrate how exhausting it is when they repeatedly revert without thinking, and after search for sources to justify revert, resulting in them tossing irrelevant or low quality sources without examination. This frequently leads to absurd scenarios in which they reject your concerns and demand you to take the blatantly low quality sources (like pre-election advertisement article on citywatchla.com), which were brought up by them, to the RSN ([37]).
For instance: On 19 December 2022 ZaniGiovanni, without any comment or talk, manually undid ([38]) number of the edits. Including edit ([39]), which replaced partisan source with eurasianet.org and added missing attribution. When I protested that ([40]), ZaniGiovanni barely addressed any of their reverts: What's the exact disagreement here? BBC is pretty clear and casts alot of doubt on the so-called activists ([41]) and undid edits again ([42]). Then, while trying to justify their revert, ZaniGiovanni twice referred headlines of BBC article ([43]; [44]), then an unrelated tweet ([45]), then an opinion piece ([46]), and each time I had to explain that the source was either irrelevant or didn't support their claim ([47]; [48]; [49]; [50]). Finally, ZaniGiovanni brought up two sources ([51]; this I didn't comment on talk yet), one of which is Kommersant, which generally should not be used without attribution in controversial areas where Russia involved. ([52]). Should not we expect that user with over 7000 edits has enough competency and will to evaluate sources before bringing them up? It doesn't look like WP:CIR since it is evident that ZaniGiovanni is quite skilled at examining sources when they are not advantageous to their viewpoint, rather it is the pattern of tendentious editing. (WP:CPP; WP:TE) A b r v a g l (PingMe)11:12, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by ZaniGiovanni
1) [20 December] Removes a source from a reliable website because the article was published in Baku (Azerbaijan). – Since you haven't discussed this on the article talk page, let me explain that the content in question was making extraordinary claims (based on a singleBaku edition article from "JamNews") that humanitarian aid passed through the blockade, which even to this day is highly doubted and at the time, wasn't reported to be true by any other sources. In fact, WP:RS clearly stated that supplies are running low or either are entirely lost due to the blockade. HRW, referring to some media reports, said trucks allegedly containing humanitarian goods were allowed to pass. So to say something like this at the time in Wikivoice no less using a single Baku edition article needed additional third-party to confirm per WP:EXTRAORDINARY, WP:UNDUE, especially when multiple third-parties didn't confirm this at all and stated that supplies are lost or running low, and HRW reporting more than a week after blockade with "alleged" wording.
2) [21 December] Reverts the restoration of the source again for being a Baku based article – Explained above, it's the same edit which was restored with complete disregard to WP:ONUS, WP:EXTRAORDINARY, WP:UNDUE. I think my removal was well justified based on the above explanation, and you should first consider discussing content before reporting here.
3) [19 December] Restores incorrectly attributed information from a local Armenian newsletter without verifying (3rd point) the source. – The source was already cited in the article (not by me) and actually you added a source that's no better. But this is something that has been extensively discussed in the talk, which you haven't replied to for a week now. So why are you bringing up random content snippet from a discussion to AE? Also, a third-party source for Az soldiers blocking the road [53], just in case.
4) [20 December] Making 6 reverts within a day on the same article (diffs provided within the linked report) – Didn't make "6 reverts" and the report is closed for a week now btw, in case you haven't noticed. This looks like WP:FORUMSHOPPING with a closed report.
5) [Here] is ZaniGiovanni using a similar article from the same JAMnews, this time published in Yerevan (Armenia) – This is neither extraordinary nor undue, it literally describes events from the blockade article so you're comparing apples to oranges here. Also, if you had a problem with that source (which I replaced btw just in case), why again am I learning about something like this first on Tamzin's talk page today and now in AE? I don't see any discussion on Lachin corridor or my talk.
Abrvagl still comments on the stale report from a week ago and Lachin Corridor where they haven't even opened a discussion. They also bring up a snippet from discussion regarding stamp section on different article. The summary; I found additional 3 third-party sources that supported the current wording and presented on talk, Abrvagl raised issues regarding the sources, they later asked me to take to RSN, to which I replied if they think there are issues with third-party sources, they should take to RSN themselves. That's it. I haven't even used these sources in the article as I generally try to get consensus before adding something that'll possibly be contested. Abrvagl didn't reply for a week now (my comment being latest) neither they took to RSN.
The stamp being rejected by Postal Union I show here with a source. Summary; it was part of the discussion and my reply to Abrvagl's "online hysteria" comment, I didn't suggest adding it to the article nor (again) I ever did.
[I can assure you that the topic is entirely non-personal] - I don't think this is the case as evident by Abrvagl's repeated plea to sanction me. They've done a similar report on another user not so long ago, bringing up content issue to AE while neglecting to reply in the discussion for over a month. In the diffs here, most they didn't even discuss on talk, in one didn't reply for over a week now, and the other was a week-old stale report that they kept bringing up. In their 2nd comment, they don't provide an edit diff of mine and just take out-of-context snippet from random discussion they didn't even include in the initial report. At this point, I believe a WP:BOOMERANG should be applied for battleground behavior @Rosguill:, @El C:, @Tamzin:.
How does one keep choosing out of context snippets from the same discussion where we’re long past the point, didn’t reply to the discussion for over a week, and think they’d present said snippets in AE as diffs? Especially when they claimed they have “something to add”. I just don’t get this repeated behavior, they’re showing the same things which they either didn’t reply for over a week now or didn’t discuss at all. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 13:33, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Statement by KhndzorUtogh
Exactly how has Zani "returned to the same problematic behaviour that resulted in their original Tban" if they have not mentioned another user’s ethnicity since? And if the 3RR was deemed stale a week ago, why would that be any different now? It also appears that Abrvagl did not attempt any discussion first for any of these sources; instead they came straight to AE to request sanctions for the user they are disagreeing with. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 16:28, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Statement by Ixtal
As someone that moderated their DRN thread some months ago and have reached out to both on their talk pages at different points to attempt and convince them to avoid conflict, it seems that ZaniGiovanni and Abravgl will continue to find themselves unable to collaborate on here productively. I'm not placing blame on either or both of them, but I do think if the arbs or other admins find this report deeply insufficient to consider placing some kind of temporary restriction on Abravgl's filing of requests and/or ANI threads. They are a relatively newer editor that was shown the drama backrooms of Wikipedia too early due to their focus on armenia/azerbaijan and so didn't really learn how to resolve conflicts without external punitive measures or when to file requests/threads. I remember my own ban from ANI (3 months, 2021) as a crucial guardrail that has helped me immensely and think Abravgl could benefit similarly. Additionally, their statement I can assure you that the topic is entirely non-personal is suspect to me due to their and ZG's history of conflict.
As always, ZaniGiovanni you really need to work on being nicer when editing with others. Getting dragged here distracts you and others from editing constructively and we both know if you didn't WL essays like SEALION or assumed bad faith from someone who is clearly trying to improve our coverage of such a contentious topic (even if they are wrong from time to time), you wouldn't be wasting so much of everyone's time and find yourself being able to contribute much more productively. Take a week off and edit some non-contentious azeri/armenian articles (e.g. sports clubs, music artists, important art and architecture). Useful reading for ZG: Wikipedia:Don't call a spade a spade and for both: Wikipedia:Advice for hotheads. If either of you don't learn to be more collaborative I don't expect to see y'all editing in a few years and that would make me quite sad. P.S. Happy New Year everyone! Hope you've had plenty of rest and appreciated how nice winter clouds look this time of year ^u^ — Ixtal( T / C ) ⁂ Non nobis solum. 10:11, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Statement by Grandmaster
ZaniGiovanni twice removed a reference to Jamnews, claiming it was a "Baku based source", which it is not. [54][55] Jamnews is an international news outlet with reporters in all 3 South Caucasus states. It is the same as saying that Reuters is "Baku based", because it has reporters in Azerbaijan, and thus unreliable. I could understand if ZaniGiovanni made a case for attribution of the information to a particular source, but I don't find it to be acceptable to simply delete information claiming it is unreliable because of the reporter's nationality, especially considering that the reporter represents an international news outlet. Grandmaster17:07, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Result concerning ZaniGiovanni
This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
This report seems unripe in the absence of prior talk page discussion of the edits exhibiting BATTLEGROUND or other inappropriate behaviors, particularly considering that both parties have been able to make significant constructive edits to the article at-issue since the first disputed diffs were made, and with nearly 100 edits to the page since the most recent diff listed here. Questioning sources for AA2-related topics on the basis of their country of operations is valid given the nature of press coverage of the conflict, and is distinct from the genuinely-problematic behavior of highlighting the ethnicity of editors or source-authors that has occurred in the past. signed, Rosguilltalk18:38, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Since I'm mentioned as the admin who'd previously logged ZG's warning, I agree with Rosguill above. Complaints on this board should be the last step in the WP:DISPUTERESOLUTION process, not the first. Please at least attempt to WP:ENGAGE the matter prior to filing reports here. Thanks. @Abrvagl, ZaniGiovanni, and Rosguill: courtesy pings. El_C08:34, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Abrvagl: there's a 500-word limit on this board, which you've now more than doubled. Now, I don't really mind that as far as breaking that rule, but if you'd like for me, at least, to review your comments, you'll need to condense better. If not, I'll leave this to other reviewers who can spare the time for that excess (if such reviewers exist, which they may or may not). Thanks. El_C12:10, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@ZaniGiovanni: as I've noted on Rosguill's talk page, you, for your part, should not be circumventing AE's word limit by splitting the discussion on the talk pages of reviewing admins. El_C13:29, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't sure if Abrvagl posted their query to Tamzin before or after filing this report, because they failed to sign + timestamp their OP here, so I had to look it up in respective revision histories. And they're not the only ones. For whatever reason, several OPs on this board are not signed + timestamp, which is a bit annoying. Anyway, my sense (from memory, mind you) is that Abrvagl and ZaniGiovanni report one another on various instances in various venues, with some regularity. When it will end, no one knows.
What, however, is clear from the log is that each have received a logged warning this year, ZaniGiovanni as mentioned by myself (in Feb), and Abrvagl by Rosguill (in June). Then, there's ZaniGiovanni 2-month TBAN in Sept, more on that... notion below. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I get the sense that Abrvagl may well have been similarly sanctioned, and that it's sort of luck and circumstances that ZaniGiovanni was and they were not (neither one is better or worse from the other is what I'm getting at). Still, it does give Abrvagl somewhat of an edge (a lead) in this perennial dispute.
Anyway, much of this back and forth seems unfocused, with both seemingly determined to have the other removed from the topic area. Honestly, I've been feeling less and less inclined to look into these, in general, for some time now. As I've mentioned on number of occasions, I think WP:AA2 needs a full AA3WP:RFAR case refresher, with wider evidence submission and parties. That said, if someone has the time to give this (these) in-depth attention, that'd be good (big if, though). BTW @Tamzin and Callanecc: it's my and many others' view that timed TBANS, which used to be the prevailing practice, nearly always fall short. Because we nearly always end up back here, but as a new report rather than through an appeal (one could still recommend to appeal in no less than 2 months, 6 months, a year, whatever). Just putting it out there. El_C02:32, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Abrvagl and ZaniGiovanni: since you're both saying the same thing, that it isn't personal, I'll answer both of you at once: give us some credit, no one here thinks this is primarily personal. Rather, we know it is ideological. As mentioned, an arb intervention, rather than an admin one, is due (overdue). I'll emphasize again that the overarching dispute goes beyond just the two of you, limited to narrow incident/s. Each of you seem to be expecting (hoping) that we'll side with respective you. But short of something truly and obviously egregious, that's unlikely to happen.
So, whether or not either one of you are able to detach yourselves, even for a moment, so as to see this from this broader perspective — the reality is what it is, regardless. And what it is that going for piecemeal, with just the two of you, again barring a major slip up, is unlikely to go anywhere. Best to be blunt about this so as to avoid repeated time sinks, here and elsewhere.
Abrvagl, I doubt you have some major revelation to add, because why wouldn't you have added it already, if it were to significantly bolster your case? You want an extra couple hundred words to say whatever, sure, okay. But I doubt it'll get us anywhere. Because, as noted several times above, mine and others' view is that anything short of a full AA3 arbitration case would be a waste of time for all involved, parties and reviewers alike. El_C15:03, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I referred Abrvagl here from my talk page because what they were alleging was not the sort of blatant disruption I felt suited to resolution by a single admin (unlike the past behavior that Rosguill alludes to above). I don't have a strong feeling at this time about whether admin action is necessary. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe)22:21, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Paddykumar
User who is submitting this request for enforcement
Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above.
Additional comments by editor filing complaint
I think this demonstrates how Paddykumar has a fundamentally unsustainable approach to editing in the GENSEX topic area, which has persisted over half a year, including a block for edit warring. Some of these diffs would not be actionable on their own, but are part of the larger pattern, which comprises most of Paddykumar's contributions in this area.
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Hi, @Lord Roem, this is my first time filing here, so I have a few questions. You said the DS alert is missing from the report. However, the preload encourages the filer to choose one of the options to indicate why the accused is aware of DS. The one for an alert, which I chose, says to see the system log linked to above. Is it nevertheless better to explicitly link the diff where they were alerted? You also speak of a time-limited topic ban. From lurking various discussions, I am under the impression that AE administrators rarely impose such bans anymore, as they are deemed ineffective. Is there any particular reason to consider one here? Thank you. ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me;21:49, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Noting that Paddykumar's block has now expired and they have made an edit on BLPN, but have not responded here. This post is also a perfect example of how Paddykumar puts their personal opinions above reliable sources. ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me;09:59, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion concerning Paddykumar
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Paddykumar
Statement by (TheTranarchist)
I want to reaffirm the previous statement, and also add that overall it is obvious from their edit history that Paddykumar is WP:NOTHERE. Their edits are frequently removing pertinent information, or adding irrelevant ones, particularly to articles related to trans topics. They have a focus on disparaging trans people, from their insistence on misgendering at Irreversible Damage and Sealioning about it, to their misgendering in Mermaids (which has a disproportionate number of fully deleted edits) and in the whole "rude" pictures debacle to their misgendering and edit warring at Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshul, despite being warned repeatedly in the past not to do, to name but a few highlights. I feel their continued presence on Wikipedia would not benefit the encyclopedia at all, only serving to make trans editors uncomfortable by accepting recurring bigotry and increasing the workload of editors forced to deal with them in general. The majority of their edits within the GENSEX topic area have been reverted. If possible, an indefinite general ban seems the best option, but an indefinite topic ban could also fit, as their edits outside the topic seem at a glance less ideologically driven.
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Paddykumar
This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
Upon further review, they have a tendency to debate other editors through reverts/edit summaries, which isn't particularly helpful. Today's the second edit war they've been sanctioned in within this topic area in the last 3 or so months. I'd like to hear their feedback when the 3RR block expires, but based on this record I'd support a time-limited topic ban (perhaps, 6 months?). --Lord Roem ~ (talk) 21:09, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Maddy from Celeste It's best for clarity to note the explicit DS alert, as their original edit warring block appears to have been a normal admin action. As for the length of any TBAN, it's accurate it's not as common, but with newer editors--they have 169 total edits as of writing--I usually lean towards a narrower restriction in the hopes they'll participate more productively after it expires. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 22:04, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Given the block's expired and they've edited elsewhere w/o addressing this matter, I'm inclined towards a 12 months topic ban. I've occasionally seen editors with a battleground mentality immediately violate their TBAN; if that were to occur, it'd be reasonable to make it indefinite. That said, I'll hold off for a bit in case they have anything to add, but that is how I currently plan to close this in the next day or so. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 19:38, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Lord Roem: I was initially thinking that a one-revert restriction might be suitable but since there are other issues with Paddykumar's editing (eg BLP) in this area I agree that a topic ban would be appropriate. I think at least 6 months would be appropriate possibly 12 depending on their response to this AE request. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 09:07, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think a topic-ban of either 6 or 12 months is called for, and I am leaning towards the latter given their persistent disruption and failure to respond to this filing. Black Kite (talk)15:13, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning PreserveOurHistory
User who is submitting this request for enforcement
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
03:17, 29 December 2022; Reverts another editor's removal of a bunch of images, with an outrageous edit summary, "restored vandalized content", implying that the editor had vandalized the disputed content. I then reminded them of the DS notice they had recieved, that they need to avoid such insouciant use of the expression to undo g.f edits, assume good faith, and discuss the matter on the talk page without reverting.
16:43, 30 December 2022; Made a second revert, reinstating the disputed content, asking rhetorically on thier talk, "should I stop restoring content others remove without an explanation?",[56] despite the other editor clearly having said that they were removing the images because of NPOV issues.[57]
03:55, 31 December 2022 Reinstates the disputed content for the third time without any edit summary, contravening the 1RR restriction on the page, and after I categorically enjoined them to "stop reverting, period"...discuss the matter on talk page. The reversion came against the backdrop of an ongoing talk page discussion over the matter, after I spelled out the issues with their images to them, and momentarily after their terse response on the talk page that beat around the bush without even touching on the said issues (of non-compliance with MOS etc).
Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
October, 2022 blocked for a day for disruptive editing, for he "refuses to acknowledge they’ve been harassing and insulting an editor and that sources are required".
I reminded them again of the discretionary sanctions being in effect in the topic domain of India, Pakistan and Afghanistan on 30th of December 2022.
Alerted about 1RR being in effect on conflict articles in September, 2022 by Doug Weller.
Extant editnotice on the page about 1RR restriction in place.[58]
Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Notwithstanding the efforts to get this editor to appreciate and observe policies of the site, they have shown they are more interested in wikilawyering. The foregoing context also shows that their approach to the matter has been domineering, and that neither the policies or other people's words seem to matter to them.
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by PreserveOurHistory
Statement by (username)
Result concerning PreserveOurHistory
This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
The October block unfortunately didn't lead to any change in behavior. Agree with an indef TBAN given the earlier recent disruptive conduct and the 1RR violation (12). Lord Roem ~ (talk) 19:52, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Maitrey M. Telang
User who is submitting this request for enforcement
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Maitrey M. Telang
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Maitrey M. Telang
This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.