Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement: Difference between revisions
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==talknic== |
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{{hat|{{user|Talknic}} indefinitely banned from all I/P articles and discussions, broadly construed. All parties reminded that brevity is a virtue, and is far more likely to help your case than is verbosity. [[User:The Blade of the Northern Lights|The Blade of the Northern Lights]] ([[User talk:The Blade of the Northern Lights|<font face="MS Mincho" color="black">話して下さい</font>]]) 18:33, 18 July 2012 (UTC)}} |
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''Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.'' |
''Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.'' |
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*Agree with Coren and Blade. [[User:Timotheus Canens|T. Canens]] ([[User talk:Timotheus Canens|talk]]) 23:49, 17 July 2012 (UTC) |
*Agree with Coren and Blade. [[User:Timotheus Canens|T. Canens]] ([[User talk:Timotheus Canens|talk]]) 23:49, 17 July 2012 (UTC) |
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*Concur with all above - indef topic ban is thoroughly appropriate--[[User:Cailil|<font color="#999999" size="2">'''Cailil'''</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:Cailil|<font color="#999999">'''talk'''</font>]]</sup> 12:54, 18 July 2012 (UTC) |
*Concur with all above - indef topic ban is thoroughly appropriate--[[User:Cailil|<font color="#999999" size="2">'''Cailil'''</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:Cailil|<font color="#999999">'''talk'''</font>]]</sup> 12:54, 18 July 2012 (UTC) |
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{{hab}} |
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==Zachariel== |
==Zachariel== |
Revision as of 18:34, 18 July 2012
For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
See also: Logged AE sanctions
![]() | Important information Please use this page only to:
For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.
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TrevelyanL85A2
No action taken. This close is without prejudice to Mathsci's right to seek relief directly from the Arbitration Committee. T. Canens (talk) 17:23, 16 July 2012 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning TrevelyanL85A2
Not applicable. This user is banned in absolutely crystal clear terms from making arbcom requests of the kind he has is attempting to make, particularly even the slightest thing which mentions my name. He has no idea what he's doing and his "activities" have no place whatsover on wikipedia.
TrevelyanL85A2 is topic-banned from starting any kind of arbcom case involving me. He is doing so now on behalf of his friends, two site-banned users Captain Occam and Ferahgo-the-Assassin. This editor is hot off a one month AE block and has now apparently set his sights on creating maximal disruption on wikipedia. From statements on the arbitration committee talk page, he has been chatting with his DeviantArt friends (two of whom are arbcom site-banned users, both highly disruptive and neither of them particularly honest). TrevelyanL85A2 seems to be out to make mischief on their behalf. TrevelyanL85A2 has shown no interest whatsover in being involved in even the tiniest weeniest way in building a high quality encyclopedia to promote human knowledge, which is the main purpose of wikipedia. He should be site-banned from wikipedia. (That should apply equally well to any editors that arbcom have deemed to be associated with him and who choose to support his frivolous request there.) An administrator unconnected with arbcom should simply block the account indefinitely without allowing this to proceed further. Mathsci (talk) 19:52, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
TDA appears to be trolling here. Mathsci (talk) 22:09, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
Update The RfAr of TrevelyanL85A2 has now been declined as numerically impossible.[6] Shortly after that posting of Roger Davies, TrevelyanL85A2 asserted that he was withdrawing the request.[7] In that diff, he still does not seem to be heeding the warnings that have been given to him and/or his friend SightWatcher. They apply equally well to both. As MastCell has carefully explained,[8] his failed RfAr relied on an extremely bad faith assumption which was demonstrably false. It involved casting aspersions on both MastCell and me; he repeatedly made those claims during his unsuccessful appeal and continued to do so after his one month block ended with this RfAr. The name "Mathsci" appeared multiple times throughout the request, despite TrevelyanL85A2's claim that it primarily concerned MastCell. (There is an unsurprising similarity with the aspersions cast by Occam back in December 2010 concerning Roger Davies and me.) Following his unblock, TrevelyanL85A2 has given every appearance of continuing the dispute/campaign of Occam and Ferahgo as a proxy. SightWatcher has disclosed on-wiki that the DeviantArt group has been conferring off-wiki during TrevelyanL85A2's block. TrevelyanL85A2's most recent diffs still show that he has not yet relinquished the idea of encouraging wikipedia processes that will affect me and my editing directly and adversely. That is completely at odds with his extended topic ban and the advice and warnings he has received from multiple editors, administrators and arbitrators. In the last diff, instead of heeding those warnings, he has preferred to listen to The Devil's Advocate, who has stated several times now that the arbcom sanctions were not appropriate. The Devil's Advocate has no authority to misguide TrevelyanL85A2 in this way. In the diff above, TrevelyanL85A2 writes about "mixed messages" when everybody except The Devil's Advocate is telling him exactly the same thing. Mathsci (talk) 10:27, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
Here is the diff for the record. [10]
Discussion concerning TrevelyanL85A2Statement by TrevelyanL85A2I'm following the advice I was given by ArbCom as well as I know how to do. I was told at AE to request arbitration on the mailing list, and when I did so, I was told by ArbCom to make a public arbitration request after my block expired. I'm simply following the instructions I was given by ArbCom. They knew what knew what my request was about when they told me to make it in public, and I don't believe they would have told me to do this if they meant to disallow it.
Statement by The Devil's AdvocateFrom my reading, Trev is allowed to comment when his conduct is raised as an issue and to engage in dispute resolution. The arbitration request to me seems evident of the editor's lack of experience with the practice, but points to obvious issues with the restrictions. Mathsci has repeatedly edited Trev's user talk page against Trev's explicit request that he cease. His request for arbitration deals directly with that issue of Mathsci's conduct towards him and, as such, would seem completely valid under the wording of the topic ban. I think an arbitration request was the wrong way to go, but the restriction was terribly worded and seems too much like a one-way interaction ban with a vaguely-defined group of users, which is destined to fail.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 21:59, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
Well, MBisanz, if that is the case then the restriction is even less clear than I thought. The wording is as follows:
The wording technically restricts him from participating in said discussions if his conduct is not mentioned. No explicit prohibition on commenting about any specific editor is mentioned. My understanding of bans is that the exemption for dispute resolution and noticeboard discussion does free them up to comment about editors and subjects they are otherwise restricted from mentioning so long as it is relevant. In other words, the comments at the Arb case request are normal as part of an attempt at resolving a conduct dispute over administrative actions taken against Trev by an admin regarding Mathsci. Should Math be in private communication with Mast and the two of them have a close friendly relationship, it does raise questions about his use of admin tools against editors such as Trev in support of Math, including where he has used them at Math's apparent behest. Were Trev to say, "MastCell deleted the pages at the request of another user" and did not provide the diff that would show it was Math or make any mention of who that user was, then there would be immediate demands that he name the user in question and provide evidence to establish the relevance.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 01:03, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
Cailil, as I have been trying to point out repeatedly, this is not a matter of Trev following the topic area and inserting himself into this situation for no apparent reason. The timeline leading up to the recent incidents goes like this:
Did he have any need to "track" the topic area or the editors in question to find out the information listed on the case request? No. Anyone taking a cursory glance at Mathsci's contributions surrounding his edit-warring over the banned editor's comments would become immediately familiar with all the shenanigans Trev noted. So, I fail to see the legitimacy of your accusation that Trev was somehow not constructively staying out of the topic area. Trev was not editing Wikipedia at all until that nonsense started happening on his user page and that's gotten all this started, which I sincerely doubt was his intent. It's like if a bunch of guys show up at your house and pee on your rug. All you want is to replace your rug cause it really tied the room together and, next thing you know, you're getting involved in faked kidnappings and everyone's trying to kill you when you really just wanted to get your rug back so you can go back to bowling in peace.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 06:16, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
On that point Seren raised, it should be noted that an Arb cited that exact kind of activity from Mathsci as problematic battleground behavior. Obviously, Math did not give much regard to that comment. I also would add that Trev has removed the material in the case request and said he made the wrong choice so I think taking action at this stage would be inappropriate.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 05:36, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
Cailil, whether ArbCom takes on an arbitration case seems to be a separate issue from whether there are legitimate conduct issues in need of addressing. Mathsci's conduct is probably not worthy of a new arbitration case, but that does not mean it is not relevant to this AE case. Earlier you said "it's clear that rather than finding other things to do on wiki Trevelyan is following the area he is topic banned from and the editors he is banned from interacting with" when the fact is that a banned editor obsessed with Mathsci and Mathsci himself sucked Trev into something related to that area and those editors. He did not choose involvement in this of his own volition. Mathsci's conduct towards that editor is largely responsible for there being any cause for Math to push for sanction, because that editor objected to Math's conduct towards him. Can you really expect an editor to be completely silent over another editor's conduct when it involves the editor's own userspace? The answer to that question points to where there is a "clean hands" issue.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 03:51, 16 July 2012 (UTC) Statement by Enric NavalTrevelyanL85A2 is banned from commenting about Mathsci. Echigo Mole is the sock that is harassing Mathsci. Commenting about Echigo is just begging for further tests of limits of his ban. --Enric Naval (talk) 07:54, 10 July 2012 (UTC) Trev's request to Arbcom was declined[11]. --Enric Naval (talk) 15:07, 13 July 2012 (UTC) Statement by Silver serenMathsci has no right whatsoever to be editing TrevelyanL85A2's talk page beyond general notifications. Anything else can be seen as provoking an incident in order to force TrevelyanL85A2 to break the ban. Such instigation by Mathsci can be seen here where he removes a comment by an IP address that has absolutely nothing to do with Mathsci. Trevelyan reverts him and states, "I would rather you not edit my user page. Thank you." Mathsci then reverted again here, saying, "rv edit per WP:BAN - please consult a member of arbcom in case of doubt - thanks)". Regardless of whether there is any truth in this statement, Mathsci should absolutely not be the one to be enforcing the ban. Trevelyan then reverted him back again, responding, "I have asked you to stay off my page. Please respect that, and do not edit my user OR talk pages again. Thank you." Mathsci then on the 10th removed the Arbitration notification. Yes, banned user, whatever. However, not all comments by banned users everywhere are reverted, nor should they be. It is quite clear that all of this is meant to just be harassment of Trevelyan and it also appears that Johnuniq was involved in both cases of harassment as well, so take that for what you will. User talk pages may "belong to Wikipedia", yes, but no one has the right to remove comments from them that the user who the page is for wants to be there. SilverserenC 03:58, 12 July 2012 (UTC) Comment by MaunusRe:Salvio, I don't think it is reasonable to invoke clean hands when the issue is a clear cut sanction violation. Enforcing arbcom sanctions is not optional that way, but should depend only on whether the conditions of the sanction have been breached. If you believe that Mathsci has done wrong too then that should be considered as a separate issue. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:23, 15 July 2012 (UTC) Comments by Penwhale
Addendum: Also, Trev's ban isn't an interaction ban, so as long as the dialogue isn't regarding R&I or MathSci's (and other involved parties') conduct, he could communicate with them if he so chooses, if he so chooses. He could wish MathSci a happy birthday, for example, and it wouldn't violate the remedy (granted I'm using an unlikely example here...) - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 18:19, 15 July 2012 (UTC) More addendum: I can't remember where it was brought up, but you could revert a banned user if you decide to be personally responsible for the content. (And it is on Trev's user talk page, which we generally give more leeway to people as they see fit.) Also, it might just be my personal point of view, but let's say that MathSci and MastCell communicated with each other privately (I do not have evidence of this, mind you) - if MastCell didn't act on MathSci's behalf (or have the actions seem that way), then yes, I agree that Trev wouldn't have been able to bring up MathSci's name. If, however, MastCell did act on MathSci's behalf, then the question is more meddled. The details of this case is very unclear to me (I do not currently have information that a lot of editors here seem to have), so forgive me if I say that all I can offer is a view that is as impartial as I can have. - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 18:28, 15 July 2012 (UTC) Reply to Cailil: Thank you for making yourself clear. I have struck out my comment above as it no longer applies. However, I still think that Trev filed the case as to prove that someone was editing on MathSci's behalf - for him to show that, he had to show private communication did happen between MathSci and MastCell. In this case, I feel, it is unfortunately unavoidable if that was the point being proven. As far as I could tell, the only places MathSci's names were being brought up in the initial request was to show that MastCell was editing or acting on MathSci's behalf. It was (only) in his reply to Jclemens that he directly addressed an action by MathSci (but the action in question involved Trev's name - see this, which was SightWatcher's post to SilkTork's talk page). I am still unsure where MathSci's conduct was brought up in the original request - and, as such, I'm not sure the topic ban was violated. - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 19:05, 15 July 2012 (UTC) Statement by A Quest for KnowledgeThis request was filed as a result of a arbitration request made by TrevelyanL85A2. Based on what I've been reading so far, TrevelyanL85A2's request seems like a good faith error based on a misunderstanding regarding instructions given to TrevelyanL85A2 by ArbCom. Plainly stated, I don't think editors should be penalized for making good faith mistakes. Given that case has since been declined by ArbCom, this enforcement request is now stale, and any sactions imposed against TrevelyanL85A2 would be punative, not preventative. However, I am concerned by the WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality exhibited by MathSci. Prior to TrevelyanL85A2's arbitration request, MathSci edit-warred with TrevelyanL85A2 despite TrevelyanL85A2's request that MathSci not edit his use page. MathSci could have simply notified an uninvolved admin and ask that the posts be removed. Since then, MathSci has made insulting comments "Even in itty-bitty words of less than one syllable", threatened other editors ("TDA will probably receive a an official logged warning if they continue making unhelpful remarks here" and accused Salvio giuliano of "gratuitous insults", etc.. Mathsci has been previously admonished for engaging in battlefield conduct and apparently at one point agreed to binding topic ban. Perhaps another break from this topic-space might do them good. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:48, 15 July 2012 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning TrevelyanL85A2Result concerning TrevelyanL85A2
I don't think we can treat this as an infraction, if the arbitrary committee encouraged him to do this. Maybe one of them could clarify if they actually meant a request like the one that was filed. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:41, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
@Penwhale - I should have said Neither. Also ArbCom made their ruling on the rejecting TrevelyanL85A2's case - we're not here to go through that again--Cailil talk 18:40, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
So closed. T. Canens (talk) 17:23, 16 July 2012 (UTC) |
Nableezy
Frivolous complaint. AgadaUrbanit (talk · contribs) is banned indefinitely from filing new AE reports, or making comments in existing ones, except that they are permitted to comment in threads in which they are the subject of a report, but only to the extent necessary to defend themselves, and that they are permitted to appeal this ban at AE. T. Canens (talk) 13:43, 15 July 2012 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning Nableezy
It is safe to assume that a sufficient warning was issued.
The account has just returned to active editing. Despite his history it appears that the lesson was not learned.
Discussion concerning NableezyStatement by NableezyWhat? In the comment I responded to, brewcrewer wrote: The descendents of refugees may be considered by some to be "refugees" in the legal sense (emphasis added). I was responding to that. Using the same word used by brewcrewer. I can't say "some" now? This really has to be one of the more frivolous things to have been brought to any admin board anywhere. nableezy - 03:37, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning NableezyResult concerning Nableezy
So closed. AgadaUrbanit (talk · contribs) is banned indefinitely from filing new AE reports, or making comments in existing ones, except that they are permitted to comment in threads in which they are the subject of a report, but only to the extent necessary to defend themselves, and that they are permitted to appeal this ban at AE. T. Canens (talk) 13:43, 15 July 2012 (UTC) |
Varlaam
Varlaam (talk · contribs) blocked for 3 months and given official notification of the the Troubles. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:20, 15 July 2012 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Varlaam
Discussion concerning VarlaamStatement by VarlaamComments by others about the request concerning VarlaamResult concerning Varlaam
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talknic
Talknic (talk · contribs) indefinitely banned from all I/P articles and discussions, broadly construed. All parties reminded that brevity is a virtue, and is far more likely to help your case than is verbosity. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:33, 18 July 2012 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning talknic
Talknic has recently returned from a 6 month topic ban. During those 6 months he edited exactly one article outside the topic area (on a subject he previously raised in an IP related article [17]) but he did find time to collect various diffs on his talk page "for future reference" [18]. As soon at the topic ban was over, he immediately returned to exactly the same arguments from before his ban. See for example the talk page of 1948 Arab–Israeli War, an article over which he was blocked twice for 1RR violations. Compare the talk page now to archive 12 and onwards. Talknic shows obvious WP:TE and WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior. I can provide additional diffs of problematic behavior, if necessary. In the diffs above I provided only the most straightforward and easy to follow examples. There are plenty more. @Nish: You and I agreed, on the basis of the sources you provided, that neither "Nakba" nor "War of Independence" are synonymous with the title of the article in question and therefore the Hebrew should be removed from the first sentence of the lead and both should be bolded in another article. I edited accordingly. How does that amount to it being ok for talknic to make an edit that was specifically rejected in an RfC? How is it improper for me to bring it up? He edited against an explicit consensus based on WP:LEAD ("Nakba" not being synonymous with "1948 Arab-Israeli War" (as you yourself argued) and therefore should not be bolded in that article). He added "Nakba" after I removed the Hebrew, so there was no NPOV violation at the time. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:38, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
Discussion concerning talknicStatement by talknic
I've not attempted at length to contest the prior bans place on me. For the most part justifiable, though the last was quite bizarre [20] The administrators could not even agree[21] on WP:1RR. Instead they default to my past bans without taking into account No More Mr Nice Guy's own [22], obvious belligerence and determination to maintain a contravention of NPOV. For the duration of the last ban period, No More Mr Nice Guy's contribution to the articles I've attempted to edit and/or rectify was virtually nothing. His presence virtually non-existant. He's shown: The moment I have attempted to rectify in good faith some of the issues I've identified (and often have agreement from other editors that there are issues), No More Mr Nice Guy is back. This has been an ongoing pattern by No More Mr Nice Guy since I first started editing Wikipedia. Generating huge and mostly un-necessary discussions, instead of attempting to collaborate. Never once offering a suggestion, never once collaborating. Presenting instead a sea of changing goal posts. Misrepresenting WP:Primary. Misrepresenting WP:BRD. A few examples: Early Period:
Recent:
No More Mr Nice Guy's On Going Belligerence: Since 18 March 2011 (UTC) over a period of some 16 months or 477 days or 686,880 minutes, I had attempted by various means to address the blatant contravention of NPOV - [30] - [31] - [32] - [33] - [34] - [35] in the Lede of an Article. Attempting to retain a breach of NPOV is tendentious. Attempting to address that concern is not. Furthermore his objection was to all the suggestions, several points were never discussed before. No More Mr Nice Guy has made this "coming back over and over with the same stuff " accusation numerous times, when in fact different points have been raised in this and in previous attempts. I pointed this out, as I have in the past at the same tired accusation [36]. No More Mr Nice Guy has always chosen to ignore this detail After 477 days of No More Mr Nice Guy attempting to maintain a contravention of NPOV, Nishidani entered the debate 9@ 22:07, 1 July 2012 (UTC). No More Mr Nice Guys suggests Nishidani read the archives. He does read them and comes to the conclusion that "Talknic's point is not that nakba is not in the lead. It is that a balancing set of Arabic terms for their definition of the war does not follow the Hebrew terms. This is a clear violation of standard article leads in the I/P area, where all places, events and peoples with names in both languages are mentioned in sequence. It is an elementary point, and if the consensus ignored it, the consensus ignored the problem." Nishidani (talk) 19:40, 3 July 2012 (UTC). This consensus to contravene NPOV policy has been led by none other than No More Mr Nice Guy! Nishidani goes on to offer very much the same arguments and evidence as I had for over a year and through numerous bans. Lo and behold and after some 16 months of my being brow beaten, accused, hounded, fed misrepresentations of editorial policy, being reported and banned, without the administrators ever noting No More Mr Nice Guy's own errant behaviour, the issue of NPOV was finally addressed
Inadvertent as explained here. Neither I or No More Mr Nice Guy were aware there were two re-directs, the one I used still led to the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, leading me to believe the edit was still warranted. The errant redirect was changed by No More Mr Nice Guy, only after I'd made an inadvertent edit based on that redirect and after I'd pointed out the fact that there was an errant re-direct. Furthermore, the previous consensus he mentions had already been superseded by his agreement with Nishidani. In the discussion No More Mr Nice Guy agreed that the word/s should be bolded, reversing the previous consensus he now sees fit to mention and; in it's new position at 1948 Palestine War he has bolded both
A tongue in cheek comment is not BATTLEGROUND mentality. Purposefully preventing the addressing of NPOV is BATTLEGROUND mentality. Doing a total revert for one word is BATTLEGROUND mentality. Moving goal posts is is BATTLEGROUND mentality. Misrepresenting WP:PRIMARY and WP:BRD is BATTLEGROUND mentality. Hounding is BATTLEGROUND mentality.
No More Mr Nice Guy challenged me to "Go ahead and revert". Which would have been a contravention of WP:1RR and of WP:BRD, an essay, which No More Mr Nice Guy demands as policy. ... attempt to coerce "Although wikipedia tends to avoid labeling people and organizations as "terrorist", I wouldn't object to you doing it here if you'll join me in doing the same for other groups involved in this conflict." No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 08:57, 21 March 2011 ... and finally, convincing editors to maintain a Lede in contravention of NPOV is coercing editor/s into contravening Policy. No More Mr Nice Guy's Additional comments: "During those 6 months he edited exactly one article outside the topic area (on a subject he previously raised in an IP related article [38])" However I suggest a long standing and consistent effort on the part of No More Mr Nice Guy to maintain a breech of NPOV most definitely is! I am only attempting to inform readers improve articles and address breeches of policy. No More Mr Nice Guy has resumed his belligerence on my return in order to prevent information he doesn't like from being included. Folk might also note: no other editor has attempted to have me banned! Addressing the ComplainantNo More Mr Nice Guy 20:38, 16 July 2012 -- "How does that amount to it being ok for talknic to make an edit that was specifically rejected in an RfC?"
Addressing Administrators:Administrators ought surely be looking at the ongoing behaviour of the person bringing this complaint, some of which I have addressed above. None of which was taken into consideration on my last banning [40] Coren 04:03, 16 July 2012 -- Talknic, from here this looks clearly like an immediate return to the same battleground mentality and tendentious editing you were sanctioned for as soon as the ban ended. Editing Wikipedia is about collaboration, not battles to control article contents; and you seem entirely unable to engage in the former.
The Blade of the Northern Lights -- "I agree with Coren ..."
T. Canens -- "Agree with Coren and Blade."
T. Canens/The Blade of the Northern Lights -- Coren had the decency to ask for more specifics, which I gave. You could at least have had the decency to await Coren's response before agreeing with what was a non existent final response. Furthermore, my past behaviour, based on past judgements is not the issue here. No More Mr Nice Guy's current complaints are. Please address them. Repeated and refuted here for your convenience:
No More Mr Nice Guy's Additional comments: "During those 6 months he edited exactly one article outside the topic area (on a subject he previously raised in an IP related article [52])"
"..but he did find time to collect various diffs on his talk page "for future reference" [53]"
"As soon at the topic ban was over, he immediately returned to exactly the same arguments from before his ban. See for example the talk page of 1948 Arab–Israeli War, an article over which he was blocked twice for 1RR violations."
...notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to Received a 3 month topic ban [15] for his talk page conduct, which unfortunately still hasn't improved
Recieved a 6 month topic ban [16] for, among other things, being "persistent and oblivious".
Cailil - Agree with what? Coren has yet to give a final determination after I provided the requested information. Allowing a person who has for 16 months maintained a blatant breach of NPOV and coersed other editors into consensus to breach NPOV and; on my re-addressing the un-addressed breach of NPOV, resumed his determination to keep breaching NPOV and in doing so generated countless pages of useless dialogue in order to keep that breach of policy in EVERY discussion on the issue! Please read Nishidani's comment, because were it not for Nishidani's intervention No More Mr Nice Guy would still be doing it talknic (talk) 13:49, 18 July 2012 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning talknicComment by Nishidani Since he returned, Talnic's very detailed arguments have been only, as far as I recalled, responded to by NMMGG. NMMGG mainly (apologies if I err, but this is all very much a TLDR altercation) said the prior consensus had addressed his concerns, and he was just more or less kicking a dead horse. What little I examined suggested to me that the prior discussions were not resolutive, nor adequate. It is highly improper of NMMGG in his first diff above, to take that as some violation. Talknic turned out to be correct, and NMMGG's dismissal of his arguments as 'resolved' in a prior consensus superficial. NMMGG denied at length that the hebrew and arabic terms were synonymous. I stepped in, and showed they were synonymous. Given their synonymity, nakba had to be bolded exactly as the hebrew term. Prior to this, as talknic insisted, WP:NPOV was violated by having only the Hebrew term. NMMGG's solution is to avoid parity by removing the Hebrew term for the war, so nakba disappears. Talnic's solution is to emend the earlier stable text by adding the equivalent arabic. They disagree over this. I haven't had time to help out with the other points, but the imbalance in NPOV talknic speaks of does exist, and is very difficult to resolve. Talknic tends to undermine his case by TLDR posting, as per above, but serious issues exist, and he's fingered some. There are essentially only 2 people arguing here, and I do not think the differences can be resolved by eliminating one of the two editors at the request of the other. Nishidani (talk) 20:08, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
Result concerning talknic
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Zachariel
Zachariel (talk · contribs) indefinitely banned from all articles and discussions related to astrology, broadly construed, and is warned that continued edit warring will lead to an extended block. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:28, 18 July 2012 (UTC) | |||||||||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | |||||||||
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Zachariel
Zachariel has a history of battleground behavior revolving around astrology articles. He routinely edit wars against consensus, insists that unreliable sources such as the Journal of Scientific Exploration be given equal weight with papers from Nature (magazine), and assumes bad faith of editors who disagree with him. Though consensus at the reliable source noticeboard has not agreed with his views on sourcing,[55] he persists in trying to add them to the article. The above diffs show he is not able to edit neutrally and collegially on astrology articles. I propose a topic ban of fixed duration from astrology articles, broadly construed.
Discussion concerning ZacharielStatement by ZacharielAs stated on the talk page I have little time right now, but I will come back and add diffs to support my view that Skinwalker is an editor who has consistently shown an attitude of hostility and bias against the topic of astrology, as have a number of editors whose collaborative efforts have not been geared towards furthering the aims of Wikipedia, by developing and improving content on this topic, but ensuring that the content is as bad as it can be, and effectively 'bullying off' editors who show willingness to ensure the policies are correctly applied, not tainted by obvious bias, and that the content gives good, intelligent report of what the reliable sources say. In the sense that I have been the main contributor to a number of astrology pages that were in a shambolic state, and that the result of my good understanding of this subject from both sides of the arguments has improved many astrology pages significantly, and that I am one of ... (well let's just say "hardly any") editors left contributing to this topic that does not belief that we are here to push the view that astrology is garbage, but simply report what the reliable sources say, I have no doubt that my edits and talk page contributions will be seen as disruptive to the 'norm' here. Fact is, my edits are not liked - what we have to look at is why, and whether I am creating 'battlegroung behaviour' here, or being confronted by it in every obvious and helpful contribution that I try to make. An example can be seen here where I was accused of edit-warring (again) by Dominus Vobisdu, who does this regularly (as do others), in order to revert everything I do, whether it is corrections on content, or grammatical, spelling and consistency errors. In the main my contributions are to supply reliable references to content that lacks them. Please check the history of that page to see what good content he was reverting, and the shambolic state of the content he was wanting to revert it to. In order to get him to desist, and the editor who backed his action up at his request, I had to waste a lot of good time on talk pages requests, as I always do. Another example is seen here where I attempted to fix the problem of a redirect that goes to a page that has no information on the subject of the redirect. Also check the history of the main astrology page, long term and short term. I have been one of the most significant contributors to that article over a long persiod of time, and have contributed more towards verifying its content than any other. I am 'the last man standing' from long running edit-wars, and my commitment to that article has been sincere and long term. I am now frustrated by the fact that I am not allowed to make any kind of edit, but must seek permission first from the other editors, no matter whether my edit is controversial or not. Meanwhile other editors do not discuss or explain their edits on the talk page even when making dramatic changes. It will be seen that the article is quickly losing its coverage of content except the the scientific criticisms section which continues to build without limit. My argument - which is not liked - is not that we should avoid coverage of the criticisms, but we shouold strengthen the robustness of our reports on the criticims by focussing on the issues that are deemed authoritative by the notable authoritites, including historians of science and philosophers of science - not just keep building the content up from silly points made in debunkers manuals. That only smacks of desperation and prejudice. My response to the accusations that are specified are:
I believe Skinwalker's last interaction with me, or involvement with the page was a few weeks ago when he advised me to go edit the page at Citizendium instead, and accused me of being a SPA. I didn't repond to the accusation although he raises regularly (suggest you check my edit count). -- Zac Δ talk! 17:28, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
Diff 11 - and the real reasons I have problems with The Cosmic Perspective
Statement by IRWolfie-Zac has also consistently used words with legal implications such as "potentially libellous", "defamatory" etc aimed at some of the comments of other editors despite being asked not to [57][58]. See this recent example: [59] (edit summary: "What's a better word for defamatory (which still means defamatory)?") of an accusation that a previous comment by another editor is defamatory.
I would agree with what Saedon has said. It is difficult when the serous academic sources are near universally disparaging of Astrology. Since I've started editing this article, in may, I've seen that Zac believes he is acting in the best interests of the wikipedia, but this leads to disruptive behaviour as he argues over the reliability of standard academic sources, misuses unreliable sources etc and incivility. IRWolfie- (talk). 08:39, 17 July 2012 (UTC) See Talk:Astrology#The_Hartmann.2C_Reuter_and_Nyborg_paper_-_ref_59 for the latest example. IRWolfie- (talk) 09:50, 18 July 2012 (UTC) Comment by A Quest for KnowledgeI've been following the astrology topic-space off and on for sometime (more off than on lately). From what I can gather, the astrology articles used to be a bit of a walled-garden. Recently (within the last year), the astrology articles have attracted more attention from outside editors and this has led to many conflicts at these articles. Skinwalker is correct that Zachariel has exhibited battleground behavior, but he's not the only one and probably not the worst offender. I think that Zachariel means well, but their personal beliefs are in conflict with Wikipedia's content policies including WP:V, WP:NPOV and WP:FRINGE. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:44, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
Comment by Robert CurreyAs a past editor of the astrology page, I can say there is and has been much bullying, personal insult and intimidation on the astrology page by a focused group of editors who are pushing their extreme sceptical point of view. They have managed to get most neutral editors banned through trumped up charges or frustrated them by a total unwillingness to compromise and cooperate. Skinwalker has long been policing this page to revert any edits that disagree with his POV often without discussion or consensus. Knowing that Zac's behaviour is no worse than other editors, Skinwalker makes much of raising the Journal of Scientific Exploration as an unreliable source. Like every debate there are two sides. What Skinwalker omits to say is that the paper in question was written by a statistician, Professor Ertel, from Goetingen University and covers his research into sampling errors in the Carlson Experiment (1985). The conclusions from Carlson's experiment have now been criticized independently by three Professors including Hans Eysenck and it no longer has support from the scientific community. Yet, editors on the astrology page are actively white-washing it lest any stains show through. These editors have successfully suppressed these criticisms by claiming that the publications - even when peer reviewed - are unreliable sources or that the Professors are biased - even though Carlson himself was backed by CSICOP and originally planned to publish his experiment in the Skeptical Inquirer. Yet, WP:PARITY states that "Parity of sources may mean that certain fringe theories are only reliably and verifiably reported on, or criticized, in alternative venues from those that are typically considered reliable sources for scientific topics on Wikipedia." Some "rational sceptical" editors claim that this only applies if the source suits their POV! The way this experiment has been artificially propped up by wiki-lawyering and now the attempt to penalise editors such as Zac for raising this contentious issue because it challenges their personal views is scandalous. Through the handiwork of a few editors the astrology page is now more dedicated to debunking the subject than anything encyclopedic and informative and lets the whole Wikipedia Project down. Skinwalker is no paragon and has no right to criticise Zac. He trawled through my published material on the web outside Wikipedia to claim on several occasions that I had recruited editors. It was a false claim designed to undermine me as an editor. Robert Currey talk 23:13, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
Statement by Other ChoicesI am inclined to agree with the comment by A Quest for Knowledge -- Zac isn't the only one, and probably not the worst offender. With that said, on the astrology page Zac has often been hot-headed and unwilling to bend to the vocal majority which often passes for a consensus. Skinwalker's accusation that Zac took part in edit warring on the History of Astrology page on July 1 and 2 is simply not true, in my opinion. The history of the relevant diffs on this page is here Zac gave the long-ignored History of Astrology article a much-needed overhaul. Anti-astrology editors followed Zac from the Astrology article onto this page, in what appears to be a clear case of WP:HOUNDING. One of these editors accused Zac of edit warring after Zac convincingly addressed an issue raised by another editor and restored deleted content. This accusation of edit warring went together with a wholesale deletion of content that Zac had added, which led Zac to reply here The way things developed on this article, there was some modification of Zac's work on July 2, but most of Zac's improvements to the article were upheld by the consensus (which was dominated by editors who are often opposed to Zac at the Astrology article), and Zac continued to substantially revise and enlarge the History of Astrology article over the following days without opposition. In this case, I think Zac did a good job, and his improvements still stand in the current version.--Other Choices (talk) 01:52, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
Statement by SaedonJust to preface, a couple days ago I had emailed admin User:Moreschi about whether Zach's behavior was disruptive enough that AE would be an appropriate venue. He hasn't responded yet. Specifically, I mentioned a couple recent comments Zach has made that convince me that Zach lacks understanding of WP policies regarding WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE subjects, and indeed a lack of understanding of the scientific publishing process. Firstly, in [66] Zach makes the claim that Nature (Journal) didn't have the criteria checking reputation 30 years ago that they do now and therefore a famous astology-debunking article is not notable. In fact, Nature has been a respected publisher for decades before the Carlson study was published. In the post to which Zach was responding I had also pointed out that the Carlson study was cited 51 times (according to GScholar), which is a lot for an article on such a fringe topic. Point number two is that Zach contends that a source published in SciEx should be used to contrast the Nature study (or that neither should be used). Zach brought this up on Jimbo's talk page (I highly recommend reading this conversation as it's telling) in Septermber 2011 where after a long conversation Jimbo said
So Zach is well aware based on conversations on talk:astrology and ut:Jimbo that the consensus is against inclusion and yet he still continues to argue the points. Lastly, recently Zach has [67] argued that The Cosmic Perspective, an undergrad astronomy textbook used in major universities across the country, is not a reliable source. It is very difficult to work with someone who thinks that a fringe journal like SciEx is a reliable source but an astronomy textbook is not.
Statement by JessI think Saedon and A Quest for Knowledge summarize the problem well. Additionally, if Zac intends to continue here productively, we must find some way to address his consistent edit warring. Despite many explanations, he still routinely denies any disruption while actively and combatively reverting. I assume this is a misreading of WP:EW, and consequently he is under the impression that if his edit is correct, then reverting to reintroduce it is ok. It is not. See the brief discussion here, for example. His comments on this page, I believe, illustrate the problem. " Statement by MakeSense64Having edited on the astrology article in the past, I would like to add that Zac's propensity to edit warring is not the only or the biggest problem. It is his endless baggering on Talk pages, as we can even see in his reply here and in the mentioned discussion on the ut of Jimbo Wales, that causes the most stress for editors who try to work on astrology related pages. I can also not help to observe that @Robertcurrey, who has not done an edit for months, was here right away to write in favor of Zac: [68]. MakeSense64 (talk) 08:11, 18 July 2012 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning ZacharielResult concerning Zachariel
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Dailycare
Request concerning Dailycare
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Jiujitsuguy (talk)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Dailycare (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:ARBPIA
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- In this edit Dailycare writes the following According to Avi Shlaim, Nasser disregarded the counsel of his own intelligence and he references the 2007 edition of Shlaim's book, Lion of Jordan: The Life of King Hussein in War and Peace at page 238. I thoroughly checked that page and found that Shlaim makes no reference to Nasser disregarding the views or counsel of his intelligence service. Indeed, there is no mention of Egyptian intelligence at all, on that page. I then scoured the entire book and read it cover to cover. Perhaps, I thought, Dailycare had just mistakenly referenced the wrong page. In fact, I could not find any reference in Shlaim's book to Nasser disregarding the counsel of his intelligence. I then thought that perhaps Dailycare meant to cite a different book written by Shlaim and that that information could be found there. So I checked the only other book written by Shlaim that is referenced in the article (The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World, 2000, 2001) and that book too is devoid of any such reference or information regarding Nasser's disregarding the counsel of his intelligence. See page 238 [69] I was unable to retrieve the cited page reference for the other book on Google Books but I scanned the relevant page into my computer. I will be more than willing to email the page (and any other pages in the book) to any Syop wishing to see the referenced page.
The relevant page can also be accessed here at TinyPic
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
This is black and white. I could have added additional information concerning other matters but did not want to cloud this clear-cut case. He states that Avi Shlaim said something that Avi Shlaim clearly did not say. If that is not source misrepresentation, I don't know what is. In a previous AE, T. Canens noted that Dailycare was careless in the manner in which he employed a particular reference and Daily was issued a warning. Well, this case represents outright misrepresentation in the extreme and something more that just a warning is clearly warranted. Moreover, even if the insatnt case can somehow, under the most liberal interpretation be construed as "careless," how many instances of carelessness are we willing to tolerate?
- @nableezy, Uh no...Other historians including Michael Oren and Leslie Stein have stated that Nasser disregarded the counsel of his own intelligence. But Dailycare added the following, "According to Avi Shlaim" and Avi Shlaim made no such representation. Dailycare didn't even bother reading Shlaim because had he done so, he would have seen that Shlaim never said that. By adding the words "According to Avi Shlaim" Dailycare made an affirmative representation that Shlaim said something that he clearly didn't say. That is source misrepresentation.
- @Nableezy you view me as your enemy of sorts and since your return from your t-ban, have been the first to comment on AE's which I initiated which says a lot about you. My edit was sourced by Stein and Oren both of whom clearly state that Nasser disregarded the counsel of his own staff I even quoted Stein in the reference. You can't be more explicit than that. But Dailycare then twists it by attributing views held by Stein and Oren (who were explicitly referenced by me just prior) to Shlaim. He stated "According to Avi Shlaim" and Avi Shlaim never held this view.
- @Nableezy. Did you even bother taking note of this edit where I clearly and unambiguously attributed Nasser's disregard of his military staff to Leslie Stein? Stein, "Fawzi reported to Nasser that: 'There is nothing there. No massing of forces. Nothing.'" p. 266 these were views held by Stein and Oren, not Shlaim. But Dailycare then writes "According to Avi Shlaim" attributing views to Shlaim that Shlaim clearly never said. That is source distortion. Whether it was purposeful or not, it shows that Dailycare didn't bother reading Shlaim. Otherwise he would have realized that Shlaim never said those things.
- @Nableezy That sentence "Nonetheless, Nasser disregarded the counsel of his own intelligence" is attributed to Stein and Michael Oren both of whom I referenced immediately prior. The statement is 100% accurate and verifiable. I don't have a problem with the statement that I myself introduced. I have a problem with Dailycare stating "According to Avi Shlaim" which is an outright distortion and misrepresentation of Shlaim. Had he taken just a brief moment to read the sources, he would have realized that his affirmative attribution was an absolute falsity. Anyone reading the article and checks the sources that I noted knows that the sources state that Nasser disregarded the intelligence assessment of his military staff. See for example oren. yet the Egyptian president preferred to overlook these repudiations and to proceed as if the Israelis were about to attack the problem with Dailycare's edit is that by specifically stating "According to Avi Shlaim" he attributes this not to Oren and not to Stein but specifically to Shlaim, which is patent falsehood.
@Dailcare. The first AE I brought was not dismissed as "frivolous" as you falsely state. At least one of your edits was deemed "careless" and as you may recall, you were issued an ARBPIA warning. Second, my goal is to see the accurate use of sources. When you affirmatively attributed a statement to Shlaim that Shlaim did not say, that was a source of concern for me and it should be for all others as well. This AE has turned into the usual partisan bullshit. It is a clear cut case of source misrepresentation by Dailycare. What his intention was in manipulating my edit is immaterial. He performed it in a reckless, careless manner and in his previous AE, he was cited there for being careless as well and that is why a warning was issued.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 20:26, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
- I have now corrected Dailycare's inaccuracy and have properly attributed the edit to Michael Oren with inline citation.
- @T. Canens. I absolutely take credit for that edit as well as this and according to Michael Oren and Leslie Stein, Nasser disregarded the advice of his own staff and continued the buildup. What I didn't do is attribute that statement to Avi Shlaim. I noted the sources and if you want me to email you the relevant pages I will absolutely do that. What I did not do is state "according to Avi Shlaim" because Avi Shlaim absolutely never said that. Moreover, even if Dailycare's edit predates the warning, continued retention of it constitutes continued distortion and, I felt strongly that this type of affirmative false attribution is something that had to be dealt with. Bottom line Dailycare affirmatively and falsely attributed a comment to Avi Shlaim that Avi Shlaim did not say.
- Comment and notification to other Syops
About six weeks ago, at the request of a member of Oversight, I filed a detailed complaint against Tim Canens alleging bias in the extreme and abuse of his Syop authority. The complaint was long and exhaustive and Canens was required to respond to each and every charge. This likely took some time and no doubt he was annoyed for having to "waste" time answering my charges and clarifications from Oversight. Ultimately, Oversight determined that no sanction was warranted. I obviously disagreed but voiced no objection to the substance of their determination. My only request however was that given the antagonistic relationship between myself and Canens and the fact that he was aware the it was I who filed the complaint, that he recuse himself from all AEs in which I am either the filer or respondent. I predicted that if I was T-banned, it would be T. Canens who would be the main antagonist and the one advocating the ban. Oversight considered the request but noted that there were mechanisms in place to ensure that there would be transparency and fairness. It is interesting to note that in both of the recent AEs that I filed, it was T. Canens who responded as the first syop and almost immediately, this despite the fact that other AEs (like Dali lama ding dong's) were languishing and some were being archived for lack of commentary. I hope that other Syops who view this case will not be influenced by TC's metaphoric poisoning of the well, which he is quite adept at doing. My interest was to ensure that sources remained accurate. The only thing I can be faulted for is not providing an inline cite, which in hindsight would have been more helpful. But my edits were well sourced with reliable and verifiable sources. Dailycare however falsely attributed a comment to Avi Shlaim that Avi Shlaim did not say.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 14:48, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Dailycare
Statement by Dailycare
Here we go again?
Concerning the content, I added "According to Shlaim" in front of the sentence since the sentence was attributed, by Jiujitsuguy, to Shlaim (and Mutawi, but Shlaim is mentioned first). I decided to mention the author since Jiujitsuguy had removed the Shemesh source, and content sourced from it, from the article. By writing "According to Shlaim, ..." and "According to Shemesh, ..." I was able to present both narratives of why Nasser moved his forces. Pure and simple. Alternatively we could write "According to some sources, ..." and "According to other sources, ..." if there are multiple sources for both viewpoints.
Concerning Jiujitsuguy's behaviour, this is the second frivolous AE against me within a short space of time. Jiujitsuguy is under a recent, personal and stringent warning that any further disturbance will result in an indefinite topic ban. My suggestion is, that this topic ban would now be activated either as indefinite or fixed term. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 20:09, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
- I'm of course moved by the way you're checking my edits with such loving care, in fact I feel like I should be paying you. However, these AE requests need to stop as you're wasting people's time.--Dailycare (talk) 20:52, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Dailycare
This is as spurrious as the last report, and something should be done about this repeated bad-faith use of AE to attempt to remove one of the better editors from the topic area. the sentence Nasser disregarded the counsel of his own intelligence and began massing his troops in the Sinai Peninsula on Israel's border (May 16), expelled the UNEF force from Gaza and Sinai (May 19), and took up UNEF positions at Sharm el-Sheikh, overlooking the Straits of Tiran. was already in the article. It was cited to Shlaim (2007) p. 238 and Mutawi (2007) p. 93. It was added by, and this is where this gets comical, Jiujitsuguy (search for Nasser disregarded the counsel of his own intelligence in that diff). The material that JJG is objecting to having cited to Shlaim was added by JJG to a sentence that cited Shlaim. If anybody is to be sanctioned for poor sourcing, it needs to be JJG.
All Dailycare added was According to Avi Shlaim. He did not add the reference, he did not add the rest of the sentence. Dailycare attributed what was cited, in part, to Shlaim to Shlaim. The claim that Dailycare wrote that sentence is false, and seemingly made to intentionally mislead admins. That the material was actually added by JJG only makes this an even more egregious case of an underhanded use of AE. nableezy - 16:41, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
- @ JJG, uhh no. Your edit didn't cite Stein or Oren for the sentence. The only two sources cited in the sentence that you added the material were, and still are, Shlaim (2007) p. 238 and Mutawi (2007) p. 93. That is, you added material to a sentence that had sources without adding any sources for that sentence. Any reader looking at that sentence and seeing what is cited would assume that Shlaim (2007) p. 238 and Mutawi (2007) p. 93 are what backs up the material you added. It is you, not Dailycare, that inserted that material in a sentence that cited Shlaim. All Dailycare did was make explicit what your edit did implicitly. Again, if anybody should be sanctioned for poor sourcing, and yet another bad-faith use of AE, it is you. nableezy - 17:42, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
- I dont view you as [my] enemy, and its ironic that in a request about a user attributing to somebody something they did not say you do exactly that with me. I comment in AEs where a user, in bad-faith, distorts what has happened so that he can attempt to remove somebody he views as his enemy of sorts. And no, you emphatically did not cite Stein or Oren for the phrase Nasser disregarded the counsel of his own intelligence. Anybody can look at the diff and see that the sources that appear following the sentence that you added that phrase to are Shlaim (2007) p. 238 and Mutawi (2007) p. 93. Trying to play fast and loose with the record isnt the wisest choice here as we can all see the diffs. You did not cite Oren or Stein, and the only thing that DC did was explicitly attribute to Shlaim what was sourced to Shlaim, and it was sourced to Shlaim because you were, once again, careless with your sourcing. nableezy - 18:04, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
- Jesus Christ, do you really not understand the simple concept that the citations appear after the sentence they support? That you used Oren and Stein for the sentence Egyptian intelligence later confirmed that the Soviet reports were in fact groundless. but not for the phrase Nonetheless, Nasser disregarded the counsel of his own intelligence? That the only sources for the entire sentence Nonetheless, Nasser disregarded the counsel of his own intelligence and began massing his troops in the Sinai Peninsula on Israel's border (May 16), expelled the UNEF force from Gaza and Sinai (May 19), and took up UNEF positions at Sharm el-Sheikh, overlooking the Straits of Tiran were, and still are, Shlaim and Mutawi? If you dont understand that concept then we have a bigger problem, though it is a problem that can be solved without you being banned. If you do understand that concept, and you are simply feigning ignorance, then we have a different problem, one that has a straight-forward solution. nableezy - 18:58, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
- How is the phrase you added "attributed to Stein"? Are you seriously disputing that the only sources that appear at the end of the sentence that you added that phrase to are not Shlaim and Mutawi? Yes or no for that last question please. nableezy - 19:20, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
- I dont know how many ways I can write this, but the sentence was cited to Shlaim, and you made it so that Shlaim was the cited source for something that you say Shlaim never said. Again, DC made explicit what you edit did implicitly. There is no rational reason for you to continue to dispute this, and your steadfast refusal to actually acknowledge that the sentence was, and is, cited to Shlaim and Mutawi is inexplicable. Your edit made it so that Shlaim was cited for the material. DC's edit made that implicit attribution explicit. Which of those is "source distortion"? The one that actually adds material unsupported by the cited source? Or the one that explicitly notes what the cited source is? nableezy - 19:48, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
Comment - JJG, which of the following do you regard as a more serious violation, what you say Dailycare did or what you did by writing Talk:Operation_Sharp_and_Smooth#Results, a piece of unsourced original research based on your personal opinion, followed by a policy violating addition of OR to an infobox ? I don't understand how it is possible to violate policy in a very obvious way like that on one day and complain about an editor violating policy in a convoluted and obscure way on another day. Dailycare has a clean block record[70]. You don't[71]. Which of the editors presents a greater risk to content based their editing history and the nature of these contrasting edits ? Sean.hoyland - talk 19:37, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
- Comment by AnkhMorpork
- JJG added the content that "Nasser disregarded the counsel of his own intelligence"
- This content is not in dispute and is confirmed by several sources (Oren, Stein). JJG then adds a source immediately before this sentence to support his recent additions. This could have been done is a clearer manner by inserting it after the next sentence, even though the material's accuracy is not in question.
- Dailycare mis-attributes this statement to Shlaim. This is a poor edit which demonstrates that he did not inspect the sources and that he has a tendentious agenda.
While JJG could have provided better clarity by providing a precise inline citation to support his unchallenged additions, I fail to see how this has any bearing on DC's attempt to trivialize the material by falsely attributing it to a single source that he manifestly had not read. Ankh.Morpork 19:39, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
Comment by Activism1234
- The case is not a difficult one - although there may have been some confusion over wording initally, at the end, Dailycare still unproperly referenced a source where the source did not say anything remotely close. I'm sure mistakes like these happen all the time - after all, we are only human - but this is part of the Wikipedia process - an edit is made, improved, a mistake is cited, users are notified of the mistake, and the mistake is corrected. Unfortunately, it was not corrected, and based on previous warnings that JJG brought up, and previous source manipulation, the behavior represents a poor agenda, and possibly done on purpose. "According to Shlaim..." but it's not according to Shlaim, and before including those words - regardless of whether he was referenced - it should've been checked, and when it was pointed out that it wasn't true or reverted, it should've been left or discussed further. It was Dailycare's fault for making a statement and not properly checking out to see if it was true. Content was attributed to Shlaim that Shlaim never said - that is a major deal.
- After that, there are users here who are arguing against JJG and attacking him in cases that are similar to ad hominem attacks, rather than focus on the case at hand. The AE is being screwed up over that, and it shouldn't be. These should have no bearing on the procedures, as we don't need to take as a fact whatever JJG says - the admins can check up on everything for themselves, and JJG brings Wikipedia links and diffs as well. There is no reason for this to turn into a battleground and silly attacks. That goes for everyone - those attacking and those being attacked. It's childish. State your case, and don't try to divert attention and make this something it shouldn't be. If people can support JJG, or can support Dailycare, then they should go ahead and do so without diverting attention from the main cause. Otherwise, nothing will get done, and this will all turn into a silly chaotic mess without any cohesion or cooperation.
- T. Canens, perhaps you saw it, and perhaps you missed it, which is fine. Reading your comment below, I think it's the latter case, but just to help out, JJG did answer what you wrote previously above. He bolded it as "@T.Canens." Hope it helps. I do not see any reason to ignore Dailycare's unproper source manipulation and instead punish JJG when he answered the allegations above, taking credit and explaining according to whom this was true etc, so I just wanted to point this out in order to help with the AE. I do hope it helps.
- I would also like if some other admins can take a look at this case and make a judgement call. Thanks. --Activism1234 21:15, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
Comment by Shrike I see a pretty clear case of source misrepresentation by Dailycare. He specifically attributes a view to Avi Shlaim that Avi Shlaim did not say. The edits made by JJG were accurate, verifiable and well-sourced. Dailycare however didn't bother reading the source and thereby caused a misleading edit. I don't know whether Dailycare did it on purpose but it certainly was very sloppy and careless.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 05:00, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
Result concerning Dailycare
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
- Putting aside for the moment the fact that this diff pre-dates Dailycare's ARBPIA warning, I'm particularly interested in JJG's response to this very interesting diff in which the phrase "Nasser disregarded the counsel of his own intelligence" was first introduced to the article. T. Canens (talk) 16:40, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
- This request is doubly meritless. First, the diff provided predated Dailycare's ARBPIA warning - in fact, it predated the closure of the last Dailycare thread, also brought by JJG. It therefore cannot be actioned at AE. Second, even were the edit to have occurred after the ARBPIA warning, this request must still be dismissed. This is a straightforward case of unclean hands. JJG's edit here introduced the phrase "Nasser disregarded the counsel of his own intelligence" in a sentence cited to Shlaim and Mutawi. By his own logic in his previous report concerning Dailycare ("at the very least made it appear as though [Shlaim]'s book contained this information by adding the [phrase] just before the [Shlaim] reference"), that constitutes source misrepresentation. Having misrepresented the source himself, he will not now be allowed to complain that another editor erred in relying in good faith on his misrepresentation.
It is remarkable indeed that someone who raised allegations of source falsification in multiple AE threads, engaged in essentially the same misconduct that he has accused others. That suggests a tendentious attempt to game the AE process, rather than a good faith attempt to deal with actual misconduct. The previous AE thread on Dailycare, brought by JJG as well, containing three totally spurious allegations of source distortion, is a good example.
JJG was subject to an indefinite topic ban in January this year; that topic ban was lifted on appeal in April. I think it beyond clear that the lifting of the ban had been improvident, and that an indefinite topic ban for this kind of continued battleground conduct is appropriate. T. Canens (talk) 06:28, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
- This request is doubly meritless. First, the diff provided predated Dailycare's ARBPIA warning - in fact, it predated the closure of the last Dailycare thread, also brought by JJG. It therefore cannot be actioned at AE. Second, even were the edit to have occurred after the ARBPIA warning, this request must still be dismissed. This is a straightforward case of unclean hands. JJG's edit here introduced the phrase "Nasser disregarded the counsel of his own intelligence" in a sentence cited to Shlaim and Mutawi. By his own logic in his previous report concerning Dailycare ("at the very least made it appear as though [Shlaim]'s book contained this information by adding the [phrase] just before the [Shlaim] reference"), that constitutes source misrepresentation. Having misrepresented the source himself, he will not now be allowed to complain that another editor erred in relying in good faith on his misrepresentation.
- I have to concur with the comment directly above, although I'd also generally advise Dailycare to be a bit more careful about sourcing. Mistakes happen, it's not A Big Deal, but especially in this topic area it's good to double-check. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:44, 17 July 2012 (UTC)