<!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 19:24, 26 February 2021 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1614367482}}<!-- REMEMBER TO REMOVE THE PREVIOUS COMMENT WHEN CLOSING THIS THREAD! -->
{{drn filing editor|Dtt1|19:24, 12 February 2021 (UTC)}}
<span style="font-size:110%">'''Have you discussed this on a talk page?'''</span>
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
<span style="font-size:110%">'''Location of dispute'''</span>
The page was previously deleted for not being reliable where I had voted a delete myself, but now as I find it reliable I created it with completely new sources which in compilation of overall article makes the subject clearly pass GNG, Now as I am trying to improve the article by adding reliable sources which shows that the subject has won the World Bloggers Awards in Cannes and the ref is [https://www.forbes.com/sites/stephanrabimov/2019/06/07/world-bloggers-awards-makes-history-in-cannes/?sh=3b606f3de535 This] I was said that '''The sources you're adding are utterly unreliable and cannot be used''' which I failed to understand how come this source be unreliable?, There are more references which are being removed from the article which I feel in order to make it look failing GNG like [https://wspartners.bbc.com/episode/w3ct1c15 This]] from BBC which states he was interviewed by them and other links too, someone who has won 2 Major awards and is currently nominated under one more major reliable award plus has been listed in [[Forbes 30 under 30]] catagory is being said to have all these references unreliable and when they failed to get the page deleted under [[WP:G4]] they renominated it for AFd, Thats not the problem Though, The problem is not allowing me edit the page forcefully making the subject a non notable one who has won Awards like [[Nickelodeon Kids' Choice Awards India]] ?
<span style="font-size:110%">'''How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?'''</span>
<span style="font-size:110%">'''How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?'''</span>
as per over all sources available I feel that the subject clearly passes GNG line, But unfortunately despite of helping me get the article created it is being forced to get deleted stating as non notable, I wish an Un-baised scrutiny for the present references and then to get it resolved as per their value, Thanks.
==== Summary of dispute by Praxidicae ====
<div style="font-size:smaller">Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.</div>
==== Summary of dispute by Bonadea ====
<div style="font-size:smaller">Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.</div>
=== Ashish Chanchlani discussion ===
<div style="font-size:smaller">Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.</div>
Revision as of 19:24, 12 February 2021
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Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Voidvector has pushed their WP:POV about the two series, and resorted to attacks. ("the original series is dead", "I am happy that Stardock is willing to revive (and bring attention) to the franchise", "your position is simply gatekeeping fanboyism") [1]
As our discussion went on, Voidvector started a new discusssion at a good article about the original series, and implied it might be nominated for deletion.[2]
After an effort to bring Voidvector back on topic, we agreed to include a WP:HATNOTE for disambiguation, which they added.[3]
Nonetheless, the dispute has gone on.
For clarity, there was a well-documented lawsuit that started and ended with the two series operating separately. (In the needlessly complex lawsuit, Stardock sued the 1990s developers to gain the Copyright. Stardock did hope to win the rights to make a fourth game in the same series/universe, but ended with only the name, back where they started.)
Most recently, Voidvector has criticized me for not adding to a talkpage table they created. I'm doing my best to bring our discussion back on topic with sources and guidelines, and they are not responding in-kind. I thought we found a compromise,[4] but they have since escalated this to WP:DR.
My main goal is to represent these two separate topics based on the sources, rather than WP:POV.
Another important goal is to avoid the clutter of a "related links" section, as the original Star Control was highly influential in the space genre, with numerous imitators.[5] To prevent an endlessly growing list of "related links", I'm taking guidance from MOS:NOTSEEALSO, "as a general rule, the see also section should not repeat links that appear in the article's body". The new series is already mentioned in the article body, and Voidvector already added a hatnote. A hatnote is literally the first line of the article, and this should more than satisfy our goals of disambiguation and navigation.
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
I did not state my position in the submission -- I am for adding Star Control: Origins and Stardock (trademark owner) for the purpose of "navigational aid", since this is a navbox.
I was invited to discuss this by Voidvector. I am not sure if I should respond here or at the other talk page but I don't think we should add Stardock or another game. All the reliable sources agree that the games don't share anything except the name and some inspiration. The games are disconnected by 25 years and two unrelated companies. I don't know if Voidvector wants to include or ignore the "in universe" factors but they are also disconnected stories and settings. I followed the lawsuit and I think the confusion is that the settlement makes it sound like the original series will be renamed the "Ur-Quan Masters" franchise but we still call it "Star Control". Its been "Star Control" for 30 years. I don't agree with the bias that "the original series is basically dead" but you could say the original trilogy officially ended in 1996. Now journalists talk about SCO as a new series even if they hoped for a sequel or prequel. This is explained at the Star Control article with reliable sources and links to SCO. I agree that a list of Star Control related games would be too long and the article already mentions Stardock anyway. I see that Voidvector added SCO as a disambigation line in Star Control so that should settle it. Jorahm (talk) 20:03, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There are a lot of misrepresentation here -- for example, I never actually said "the original series is dead". My actual words are "Until release of Ghosts of the Precursors (currently vaporware), the original series is basically dead." Above participates have both used this as a "straw man". (I am going to keep this reply brief, since volunteer has not joined.)
In addition, if you were to follow the thread, I have already offered compromise by suggesting we should list them as "Related articles", while my counterpart(s) has not compromised at all. My primary goal is to simply provide "navigational aid" (i.e. MOS:LINK) so anything that achieves that goal between all these articles is palatable to me. --Voidvector (talk) 22:09, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Volunteer's Message 1
Hi, my name is Nightenbelle and I'm willing to mediate this discussion. I have read the relevant talk pages and articles and before we begin I have a few questions- 1st- are all parties willing to make a good faith effort to resolve this? As a reminder, participation in the DRN is voluntary and no one is under any obligation to participate. 2nd, do you all agree to review the rules at the top of the page and follow them as well as remaining civil throughout the discussion? Nightenbelle (talk) 20:41, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I will give the other editors 24 more hours to respond and then I will have to close this discussion. I am sorry that it took so long for a mediator to volunteer- but we are a bit understaffed right now, and it is difficult to mediate more than one case per volunteer at a time. Nightenbelle (talk) 00:14, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Editor's Responses
I agree fully to mediation and enter in good faith. I pledge to comment exclusively on content and its merits. In addition, will agree to settlement of DRN regardless of outcome. --Voidvector (talk) 01:11, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I will try to be more active. I know this dispute started on the template discussion but I would advise discussing some of the recent edits on the Star Control vs Origins pages. I will make a good faith effort to resolve this and remain civil and defer to the mediator. Thank you for volunteering. Jorahm (talk) 20:26, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Just getting to this now. I'll continue to make good faith and civil efforts to resolve this. I think a neutral and patient mediator will help bring this to a close. Shooterwalker (talk) 19:09, 1 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Volunteer Message 2
Shooterwalker Having a family emergency is totally understandable, and we can absolutely un-archive / re-open a dispute. In the future, however, please contact the mediator rather than just undo it yourself- there are some templates that we need that can be easily deleted.
Okay folks- lets begin! 1st question- what would each of you consider to be a fair and equitable compromise- not your personal best case scenario- but what you think a good compromise would be? The purpose of this is to see how far apart we are to begin with. At this point- I would remind you to please not engage with or respond to each other- just give your best compromise and we will move on from there. Nightenbelle (talk) 15:40, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Editor's Responses
I have already mentioned my compromise in the creation of this DRN. I can further refine that compromise to only ask for the listing of Star Control: Origins (the game itself) as what I referred to as "Related articles" row. The link Stardock can be omitted as this is the case for Template:Fallout series and Template:Wasteland. In additional, I am willing to offer the actual naming of this "Related articles" row to my counterparty to whatever they see fit such that they can distance the original franchise from it (e.g. "Related franchises"). --Voidvector (talk) 20:55, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Game templates are not supposed to list every related article (and there are always many). For example, Archon (game) actually has the same dev as the original Star Control series in addition to the shared title (StarCon) and game design template but it’s better to describe this in the article than to clump it in a random list of “related links”. The current template doesn’t even list every person who worked on the Star Control trilogy (and it shouldn’t), so it would be even more confusing to add the unconnected developer of an unconnected series from 30 years later. I don’t see the relationship between these series outside of the lawsuit over the naming rights. I would contest whether many people would accidentally visit Star Control when they search for Origins, but it does look like a disambiguation “hatnote” at Star Control was discussed as a compromise. It was added without my participation or consent but I could accept that as a compromise in good faith. However if there isn’t satisfying to anyone I would prefer to revert to the status quo in early January before the dispute. (At least until we discuss further.) An additional compromise would be to create a new template if and when Stardock does a sequel to Origins, and if there is a dispute over the template names I am sure that can be cleared up using reliable sources once journalists decide how to cover Stardock’s games. Another compromise that would help readers is to add a hatnote to the article about the naming dispute covered at the Stardock Systems, Inc. v. Reiche which also explains the status of each series but I think it’s good enough to mention it in the text. Jorahm (talk) 22:08, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Volunteer Message 3
So what I'm seeing is Voidvector sees including the unrelated game as a related article is their fair compromise and Jorahm sees not including the game in the template but including the existing hatnote as a good compromise and re-addressing if there are future sequels. Folks... neither of these are a compromise- they are just re-stating your original point.
So lets try something different. could both of you please provide a list of other game templates that include different games by different companies that are not related? If we can see how some other franchises have handled this- it might give some ideas of how this could be handled here. Nightenbelle (talk) 17:35, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Editor's Responses
There are several other game templates that have addressed how to cover different games by different companies that are not related, but still had to work out the naming rights.
I'm late to talking through a compromise. It is true that the WP:HATNOTE was something I thought might help reach a consensus, and is at least consistent with policy and some games with the same name. But it doesn't look like anybody is actually happy with that compromise. I suppose if you scratched hard enough I'd say the games have different titles and don't need the hat note, but I think the very definition of a compromise is a solution where nobody is particularly happy. Another idea would be to change the title of this template so as to pre-emptively differentiate it from whatever template the Stardock series might eventually use. Shooterwalker (talk) 20:52, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Those are related titles. The following quotes from reputable game media demonstrating the relationship.
"While Star Control: Origins bears the name of the series, it's officially a hard reboot, set in a fresh universe with some similar concepts." from Rock Paper Shotgun
"Publisher Stardock is reviving the Star Control series with its own update called Star Control: Origins" from Venturebeat
"Star Control: Origins is the first game in the series since the maligned Star Control 3, and its roots are deeply grounded within the mechanics of Star Control 2." from Destructoid
"The company [Stardock] announced plans for a new Star Control title that would be heavily inspired by the franchise's most famous entry, Star Control 2." from Arstechnica
The best relationship to describe them is "reboot" (per Rock Paper Shotgun) or "clone" or "expand universe" or "fan game".
Here are some examples of templates that list unrelated games per moderator request:
Template:Fallout series - lists Wasteland which is a distinct series, but inspired Fallout series
Those are all blockbuster games so the templates are well trafficked by both editors and readers
On Shooterwalker's compromise of renaming/recharacterizing the template, I would be amendable to that if the new template: 1) mentions distinguishing characteristics in template title and navbox title (i.e. 1990s series or Reiche/Ford); 2) link to trademark dispute Stardock Systems, Inc. v. Reiche article. If that's the case, I do not feel the need for inclusion of Star Control: Origins, as the template would have provided readers of sufficient context and navigational aid -- those being 1) this is limited to the 1990s series, 2) there was an IP dispute. --Voidvector (talk) 23:17, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Volunteer's Statement
Okay now there's some progress. I can see how other games have handled things. It sounds like in some ways- this is a totally new situation- A new company making games that re-boot a different company's game. Legally that is fascinating... but I digress.
So both are amenable to a new template.... Lets work on that.
What if The 3 rows were Original Series / Stardock series / Related. Links to each game and publisher would go in the appropriate line, and the controversy and universe articles would go in related? Would that work?Nightenbelle (talk) 13:16, 6 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Editor's Response
Choosing a clear name for the template seems like it will resolve the dispute and be informative for our readers.
It also addresses one of the root problems I've had with a combined template, which is that you're going to have two non-overlapping sets of everything: two different publishers/creators/developers, to say nothing of the games and fiction itself. Some of the example templates that Voidvector brings up have much more overlap, both with their out-of-universe personnel and their in-universe copyrighted content, but I think that discussion will sidetrack us. If Voidvector meant it in good faith that we might resolve this by "renaming/recharacterizing" the template, then I'd rather focus on that.
We should focus our next steps on an appropriate template name. It's Wikipedia policy to avoid original research and we should avoid naming things according to our opinions. Our policy for naming things is to use a WP:COMMONNAME and refer to reliable sources. If we can agree to that in principle, I think we will keep making progress.
As an aside, I'm not convinced of the importance of the lawsuit article. For that reason it would be better to leave that off-template (but still in the relevant articles). But if we're going to include it, it would be WP:NPOV to add it to Template:Stardock too, and eventually their new series template when that happens. I'm trying to keep an open mind. Shooterwalker (talk) 22:16, 6 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There are two proposals here -- moderator's 3-row proposal and Shooterwalker's proposal. Moderator's 3-row proposal is fully agreeable to me. Shooterwalker's proposal is agreeable to me if naming context and lawsuit link is added.
In regards Shooterwalker's concern about WP:COMMONNAME or WP:OR or WP:RS, those would not apply if we simply follow WP:NCVGDAB and name the template/navbox something like "Star Control series (1990s)", or "Star Control (1990s video games)". This is a common naming convention for published media even outside of Wikipedia. It has already been done by IMDB for this series. In fact, Shooterwalker's earlier templates examples even contain this format ("Fable (1996 video game)" and "Overlord (1994 video game)").
I can agree with renaming the template title. It should be something neutral and based on sources. I thought “Star Control trilogy” made it clear but it could also be titled “original trilogy”, “classic series” or any other name you see frequently in reliable sources. I am even more supportive of mentioning the lawsuit at the pages of the parties. However Toys for Bob was not party to the lawsuit. Reiche and Ford own the copyright directly from a time when game makers often didn’t incorporate. If Stardock sued the Corp then Stardock would have had to sue Activision which would have been insane. Whatever we do should be based on sources and not just one editor’s opinion. Jorahm (talk) 23:40, 7 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank Jorahm for correcting me that Toys for Bob was no party to the lawsuit, is actually how owned by Activision. I withdraw my suggestion regarding that.
I want to mention for disclosure that I posted in Talk:Paul Reiche III yesterday that I plan to add mention of the lawsuit (currently omitted). Jorahm appears to be supportive of this. I personally did not feel there would be any dispute regarding this, but I posted it on the talk page given ongoing DRN just to be sure.
My suggestions of new template name will be based on format of WP:NCVGDAB, which would be something like "Star Control (1990s video games)" or "Star Control (Accolade series)". --Voidvector (talk) 05:45, 8 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for that disclosure as I think that helps to re-build trust. No objections to mentioning the lawsuit at Reiche/Ford/Stardock since their involvement is verifiable. Do you intend to do any further editing around these articles, other than what we're currently talking about? I ask because I'd like to get that out in the open while we still have a neutral mediator for oversight.
I think we might be talking about two different things for naming the template. Voidvector, is it your hope to move the Template to a new location in the namespace? We don't apply disambiguation rules to templates unless there is more than one template. I thought you'd be more interested in changing the "title" field, which is more visible, and why everyone uses reliable sources to establish an appropriate title. Shooterwalker (talk) 17:25, 8 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I might have other edits, but most of my edits will be adding current omissions, similar to the addition of nav links in the template here and mentioning of the lawsuit in the bio articles. I have not gone through other articles to know for sure. Rest assured, I will most likely just copy-pasting write up from another article with edits only for flow, so would not introducing new write-up. (Most of my edits in recent years have been related to western China, e.g. China vs Indian, which are way more of NPOV landmine, so I don't think I would have any issues here.)
IMO providing readers inter-article navigation is better. I much rather have direct link between Star Control and Star Control: Origins (e.g. moderator's 3-row proposal). That way, renaming is not needed, but I am willing settle for renaming with the lawsuit link, which provides explicit context so readers can figure out the IP differences themselves. --Voidvector (talk) 07:12, 9 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I also thought we were talking about the title field in the template. The title field would definitely need to be grounded in reliable sources, as with everything in Wikipedia. But Voidvector keeps on bringing up disambiguation rules for the namespace, which is different. I'm open to either discussion, but I want to make sure we are working from the same understanding. Shooterwalker (talk) 17:43, 9 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Volunteer Statement
We are Working on re-naming the template- not the namespace.... so we can stop focusing on that. Now- you have all stated that you are open to this discussion, and you've stated that it needs to be grounded in reliable sources. We've established that- what I'm looking for now is actual suggestions of what that name could be please. Not theory behind what the name should be- but actually what you want the name to be. Nightenbelle (talk) 18:56, 9 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Editor's Suggestions of Names
I thought we were agreeing on renaming the template name ("Template: Star Control" to "Template: Star Control (1990s video games)"), as well as as the navbox title which is the content of the template (See Template:Navbox#Usage). My suggestion for both names are as stated as before -- "Star Control (1990s video games)" or "Star Control (Accolade series)". Those are based on my read of WP:NCVGDAB. Both are derived from facts -- all games contain the name "Star Control", all were released in the 1990s, all were published by Accolade.
In his last reply, User:Shooterwalker stated "Voidvector keeps on bringing up disambiguation rules for the namespace". This is a false accusation and straw man, one can simply Ctrl-F on this page or on Template talk:Star Control and search for "disambig" to see who brought up the topic first and who talks about this topic more often. I should also mention that "original research" (WP:OR) and "reliable sources" (WP:RS) have been brought up in this discussion in a similar manner. --Voidvector (talk) 03:19, 10 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Voidvector and Shooterwalker- I've asked a specific question and asked that you focus on that question only- and you both have brought editor behavior into this. I'm going to ask you to WP:AGF and comment on the content only. Now, we are discussing what the new name should be- and only what the new name should be at this point. If either of you again brings up editor behavior, I'm going to close this as failed because that is not our purpose at DRN. We mediate content disputes only. Now.... So far we have the suggestions of 'Star Control (1990s video games)' and 'Star Control (Accolade series)' are there any other suggested names or do we want to vote on those two? Nightenbelle (talk) 15:52, 10 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't make any accusations or bring up editor behavior. Changing the namespace and changing the body are two different things, and I'm literally trying to confirm which one we're talking about, in good faith. We need a shared understanding in order to be able to move forward. I'm not confident that we have a shared understanding, but I'll focus my attention on the mediator's question in hopes of making progress.
The body is always based on reliable sources. The most WP:COMMONNAMEs described in the reliable sources (other than just "Star Control series", which doesn't really address the dispute) are "original"[6][7] or "classic"[8][9]. This naming convention is used in a bunch of permutations such as "classic/original Star Control", "classic/original games", "classic/original series", etc... I can produce a more thorough review of the reliable sources if necessary. Shooterwalker (talk) 16:33, 10 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Once again- the request is not for yet more research of what should or shouldn't be considered- its for actual suggestions of what you want the name to be. We need to be moving towards a conclusion. So please make a suggestion of a proposed title- not more explanation of how one should be chosen. Nightenbelle (talk) 17:21, 10 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Based on my read of policy and sources I would be fine with Star Control “Original Series” or “Classic Series”. That’s where reliable sources are pointing when they talk about the two series with maybe a slight edge to “original series”. Maybe there are other possibilities, but common use in reliable sources should be the minimum. Jorahm (talk) 21:38, 10 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you moderator for getting us back on track!
I am OK with both "Star Control original series" or "Star Control classic series" or any permutation of those. There is at least one precedence in title (albeit a redirect) following WP:NCVGDAB convention -- Mega Man (original series). I prefer parenthesized convention for template title. This is to both follow WP:NCVGDAB and not invent new phrases. For navbox title, we can avoid that by italicize "Star Control" per WP:ITALICTITLE to make the distinction. However if you guys strongly prefer non-parenthized template title, I would not push back.
I should reiterate this proposal also included linking to the lawsuit Stardock Systems, Inc. v. Reiche. I offer arrangement of the template rows to my counterparties (i.e. whether to put it in 3rd row or add it as a 4th row). Additionally, name of the link could be changed to anything reasonable as long as it provides readers the context -- e.g. "trademark dispute" or "vs Stardock". --Voidvector (talk) 06:36, 11 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am optimistic that we can wrap this up, and we might need a little more discussion to work out the last few details.
We will still include a mention of the lawsuit at Paul Reiche III, Fred Ford (programmer), and Template:Stardock. I'm open minded about how it's presented on the Stardock template to keep it orderly and avoid any similar confusion there. As for the Star Control template, I might prefer piping the lawsuit to "Intellectual property dispute" for accuracy, except that it's unnecessarily long for a template. I'm hoping Voidvector will accept a shorter "Intellectual property" but we can discuss.
Back to the template title in the body, "Star Control original series" seems to have more support in the sources. It's a verifiable and common name.
As for the namespace, the disambiguation rules don't really apply here because there is only one template. But if it would help bring the discussion to a close, I would accept moving the template in the namespace to "Star Control original series", to make it uniform with the template title in the body.
When we close this dispute (which might not be immediate but soon), I'd kindly ask User:Nightenbelle to close the dispute at the Template talk page as well, with a link and/or brief summary of the resolution. If that's not too much trouble.
In good faith, I'm trying to think if there is anything else. I'm hoping that's everything and there are no other omissions or surprises. Let's give everyone a chance to check-in. Shooterwalker (talk) 15:14, 11 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Volunteer Statement
So it looks like we have consensus on some version of Star Control: Original Series. Are there any other issues that need clearing up or are we good to close? When I close this- I will also post a statement on the template talk page to close that out if you wish. Nightenbelle (talk) 15:47, 11 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Editors' Responses
Thanks for your help, Nightenbelle. "Star Control original series" seems like the core of workable compromise. But would obviously want to hear from the others before we declare this closed, just in case we need your help working through the final details. I'm good for my part. Shooterwalker (talk) 16:29, 11 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No. The other users do not agree to move the template at this time. Just chage the name and add the lawsuit. I don't recall and agreement to a blurb either- just links. Nightenbelle (talk) 01:25, 12 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think we are in agreement about moving the template to Template:Star Control original series. At least based on my read of tones of the other editors. I am OK with keeping Template:Star Control as a redirect to this template until Stardock releases another game and we create a template for Stardock series at a different name. At that point, this redirect could be deleted so as to no favor either side.
"Intellectual property dispute" is perfectly acceptable to me for the lawsuit link text. However, "Intellectual property" alone seems inappropriate given the article is about a lawsuit, not the IP. I am also open to other word choices -- e.g. "Intellectual property settlement" or "Intellectual property litigation".
I agree to the name without parenthesis. I also agree to inclusion of the lawsuit link on Template:Stardock and mentioning of it in aforementioned bio articles.
As for how to include the lawsuit link in Template:Stardock, I would suggest adding a row called "Related articles" and add the the lawsuit link, as well as adding the link for the only other article in Category:Stardock that's currently not linked, which is their CEO's bio page. --Voidvector (talk) 09:03, 12 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Volunteer's Final Statement
Okay then. Sounds good and sounds like we are resolved. I'm going to go ahead and close this then and make note on the talk page as well :-) Thank you all for your participation. Nightenbelle (talk) 15:23, 12 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
First, there has been very little discussion on the talk page. 2nd- Filing editor wants to include information using his own experience as the source. This is contrary to WP policy. Sources must be independently published sources- preferably secondary. Please review WP:RS before editing further, and please try an extended good faith effort to solve the problems before coming here. Discussions should be more than 4 total comments. Nightenbelle (talk) 15:40, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Closed discussion
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Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
I contributed the section "United States" and my contribution keeps being removed. Three short paragraphs, fully referenced. Talk has not lead to consensus.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Review the content, the references. If a neutral third party finds it all OK, then post in the talk article.
Summary of dispute by Gwennie-nyan
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Summary of dispute by Jared.h.wood
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Summary of dispute by
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Anocracy discussion
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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
First, you are in the wrong place. You should probably be in the Teahouse for this. However, to answer your concerns- a warning banner does not open you up to threats or attacks or bullying. Lots and lots of people get them- especially new editors. Its almost a right of passage. Now- we will not remove a COI banner here. And if you have personal infomration such as your email address and phone number on WP- you need to go to WP:ANI and ask it be removed and history deleted. If you used your personal email to research informaiton for an article here, well that is on you, not us. That is not recomended or required. But even so- there shouldn't be anything connecting that personal information to your posts here. But the DRN exists to mediate disputes between editors- we are not the Admins (most of us don't even have that level of user rights and are pretty sure we don't want them). We do not handle .... this. Sorry. Other than the Teahouse or ANI- I'm not sure where to send you. Nightenbelle (talk) 18:28, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Closed discussion
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Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
I have been editing and something has gone wrong. I read all your guidelines and learned what to do, I went to tearoom and asked questions. I understood I could edit the page. I contacted outside reps, agents and fans to get information for the article. I found in Personal life, 4 articles by non-viable source with statements that were made and cited by articles that didn't talk about the statement made. I removed them all. I am now told that I a COI, I have tried to resolve but am not given options or full explanation. I have been told I am making destructive edits. If you want to undo my work, you don't need to call my work destructive as I have followed your policies. We can't reach consensus because I am left with a giant warning banner on his site. It is a living human being and you are putting me at harms way because people I have aksed for articles know that I am 20footfish. they have my personal email address and name. I am exposed like this to threats and cyber bullying. I had not thought of that.. I need that banner gone because i am now terrified. 20footfish the editor COI serious. You have no idea how afraid I am now.. just change it back and take it off please. My dispute is for my safety and wellbeing.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
I have tried to ask the editor for help to get that off. I have asked for options. I don't know what to do now. I am pretty worried and upset. I want the banner off. you can change it all back. just take it off. I will get really horrible emails with that on there for 30 000 people to see.
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
just help me please. I will never edit again. I was honestly researching every sentence and did a great job. I have them all saved on my system. I followed your WP:Source list and checked all articled for viability and only the viable ones stayed. Now I am COI because of wikicommons asking for license.
Summary of dispute by Bonadea
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Park Yoo chun discussion
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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Because of the large number of participants, they have opened an RFC instead. This dispute is closed without prejudice, and if the RFC fails and they would like to try again- they are welcome to, although with 9 editors involved, they are advised that it will be very difficult and their patients and cool heads will be required Nightenbelle (talk) 15:52, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Closed discussion
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Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
The page "Uyghur genocide" includes an image of a random young girl and an old lady. Those images do not serve any informative or encyclopaedic function in the article, and apparently the only reason they were added is to imply that "this is how an Uyghur looks like". As such, two other editors and I believe they should be removed from the page, as we do not believe that Wikipedia should promote generalisations of an ethnicity based on the looks of one or two individuals. As far as I can see, this is also the consensus that was reached on previous discussions about this matter; images of individuals should not be added for the purposes of ethnic generalisation, as they are inherently exclusive and unscientific.
However, three other editors (Horse Eye's Back, My very best wishes, TucanHolmes) claim that the images serve as an "illustrative aid", although I have not seen them be able to come up with an argument of what exactly is supposed to be illustrated by the images other than the aforementioned generalisation of an entire ethnicity. "TucanHolmes" and "my very best wishes" are arguing with MOS:PERTINENCE to "keep them until we have better ones", but as far as I can see, MOS:PERTINENCE does not condone ethnic generalisations in the first place.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Clarify whether the inclusion of images for the sole purpose of ethnic generalisation is suitable for Wikipedia.
Summary of dispute by Stonksboi
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Summary of dispute by PailSimon
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Summary of dispute by Horse Eye's Back
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There have been a lot of involved editors but I don’t think anyone has actually argued that we should be using these images "for the sole purpose of ethnic generalisation” (if I’m wrong I’d like to be shown a diff). It seems like one heck of a leading question, one only loosely based in reality. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:48, 30 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That is what I gathered from the comments of the editors involved. For example, TucanHolmes said, I quote: "This article is about an ethnic group, so showing members of that ethnic groups help people visualise the topic (it helped me, for one)." They are humans. Why exactly would someone need help visualising how a human looks like except for pigeonholing? Does a Silesian look different from a Swabian? Does an Andalusian look different from a Castillian? If I showed you ten pictures of random people, Uyghurs and non-Uyghurs, do you think you could tell them apart by their looks? If not, then including images of random individuals serves no informational purpose. Sarrotrkux (talk) 02:35, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Summary of dispute by My very best wishes
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Summary of dispute by TucanHolmes
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Summary of dispute by Mikehawk10
The talk page has been having an ordinary, albeit contested, discussion regarding whether or not to include two pictures within the page. One of these pictures is that of an older Uyghur woman wearing a hijab, while the other is of a young, female Child. Of those who believe that the images should be kept (4 editors, when I am included), there is general agreement that the reason for them to be kept is based in MOS:PERTINENCE, and that they should be kept until better images are found. Of those who do not believe the images should be kept (3 editors), the general argument is that the images are irrelevant to the article, and/or that they don't provide additional understanding. I am unsure why I was initially left out of this, since I am involved (and support maintaining the images on the page).
Aside from the substantive debate on the article contents, which I have described above, one of my comments was split in two on the talk page by Sarrotrkux and thereby refactored (I have since placed my comments back together). Outside of the talk page itself, stonksboi has alleged that Horse Eye's Back is a "staunch anti-China troll", which likely constitutes a personal attack. He also noted that he suspected that I am HEB's sockpuppet, which I am not (and this can be confirmed by a checkuser).
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Volunteer Comment Typically disputes with more than 4 editors do not work out on the DRN. I would reccomend an WP:RFC instead. There have also been allegations of Behavioral issues, which belong at WP:ANI. the DRN will not decide issues- we will only mediate a compromise. IF this is what all involved editors want- please reply to this comment saying you understand and are willing to participate in a mediated discussion towards a compromise. Other than that please do not engage in back and forth discussion until a volunteer agrees to take on this case. Nightenbelle (talk) 00:12, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Participant's Responses
Principally yes, though I'm not sure what compromise is possible between not including such images and including them. It's not like this is an argument about subjective phrasing in which you can realistically reach a middle-ground, because you can't "half-include" an image. Sarrotrkux (talk) 15:58, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that the original comment on the talk page, which includes a concern that the inclusion of the images "are a serious issue that should not be left for such a limited amount of users to decide" could be best resolved along the lines of an RfC, since this appears to be looking for additional users to weigh in on the issue at hand. I have therefore, in line with the recommendation given by Nightenbelle, created an RfC on the talk page related to the inclusion of the contested images. Mikehawk10 (talk) 23:15, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Michael Sayman, a well-known software engineer who has been the subject of coverage in innumerable reliable outlets, is clearly the target of a harassment campaign at the moment. Despite being obviously eligible for a Wikipedia page there is a coordinated campaign by critics of his to get his page removed.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
The deletion campaign is obviously coordinated and a result of someone with a personal vendetta against Sayman.
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
Protecting Sayman's page, which should clearly stay up, from frivolous deletion.
Summary of dispute by User:Radio Adept
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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Michael Sayman discussion
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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
If we can have a more diversified group of editors discuss the nomination of deletion of this page.
Michael Sayman discussion
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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hopefully a moderated discussion will allow clearer discussion with regards to wikipedia's policies, possibly leading to a resolution. If no resolution is possible, advice from the moderator on correctly/neutrally seeking RfC or Third Opinion will be useful.
Summary of dispute by KIENGIR
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The summarization of the dispute of the nominator is not correct and consistent, as well the user cannot claim the discussion was not clear, it has been overly expalined with highlights, timestamps and diffs, the user have shown an extremely rarely experienced non-understading. There are three points of the discussion;
(A) we include everything and restore the last stable version, before the user started arbitrarily remove content (then point 1. will be irrelevant)
(B) the page remains as was before the user started to insert their edits on the concerned parts, as it has been told only those will have consensus if the necessary amedments and NPOV repairs came along with (status quo ante)
(3) Besides this we started a consensus building of a third solution, in which concerning the issue 4 we would restore the section without any personal manifests (partially abandoning 3 connected to here along with others the user here did not mention), in case the user would agree the rephrasing and correction of some other additions which still suffered from inaccuracy and lack of NPOV (which has been a permanent problem of the user's additions), plus 1 (we agreed on everything, the user did not on the latter, and abandoned consensus building, that is quite odd, since any of the solutions proposed, overly 90% and 95% the user's desire would trial, given the extreme patience and generosity towards the user's direction).
All three solutions are in line with the existing policies, even being a standard, of course I'd be open another consensus building - once the one has been done the user abandoned just before finishing - regarding the other section (please note the user erroneusly separated points 2/3/4, as the subject are two sections, in which the content are overlapping by these in some instances). The user never really understood the issue, and even left consensus building, however, appropriate understanding is a basic necessity.(KIENGIR (talk) 03:27, 7 February 2021 (UTC))[reply]
Romani people in Hungary discussion
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First statement by moderator (Hungarian Romani)
I am beginning moderated discussion of this dispute. The editors are asked to read the usual rules. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors. Remember that overly long statements are often not read, which is why there is a common acronym in Wikipedia, Too Long, Didn't Read, so be concise. The purpose of this discussion is to improve the article, so I will start by asking exactly what parts of the article each editor either wants to change, or wants to leave the same. Since it appears that there are three parts to the dispute, you may provide three one-paragraph bullet points. If they are too long, you will be asked again to shorten them. It is not necessary to explain why you want to make the changes; I will ask that soon. At this time, only say what you want to change where.
Do not respond to each other, except in the box for back-and-forth discussion, which will be ignored. Address your answers to me on behalf of the community. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:46, 9 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
First statement by Boynamedsue
I feel that the article should include the section title "Anti-Roma sentiment" and the two deleted paragraphs linked above.
The paragraphs relating the statements of Attila Lakatos (linked above) should not be included, nor should any mention be made of him.
The statements of Zsolt Bayer should be included in an "Anti-Roma sentiment" section.
edit for clarity: the positioning of the sections would be similar to the first edit here
I keep my word and remain consistent, the following options are possible:
Solution A: full inclusion of everything, as last stable ([10])
Solution B: zero inclusion, status quo ante (Revision as of 22:54, 3 September 2020 upper section and Revision as of 22:18, 9 September the lower one)
(C) New consensus, in which the requirements laid down ([11]) should be fulfilled
- The three preliminary conditions for C would be indeed necessary, as it corrects erroneus/POV assertions, however it's outcome would fulfill that 3rd point of the nominator, as well one of the point in his/her 2nd point. The 1st point could be a subject of another consensus building, however, the vast removal of everything not added by the nominator is not negotiable, per WP:OWN and per the talk page discussion, which have been more times demonstrated the invalidity of such claims (despite the moderator asked I should not necessarily put the reason now as they will be asked, but like this the whole demonstration is compact and most easy to overview, since all this issue based on the fact the nominator wish to fulfill his/her 2nd point, per WP:JDL)(KIENGIR (talk) 08:28, 10 February 2021 (UTC))[reply]
Second statement by moderator (Hungarian Romani)
We need to use the current version of the article (regardless of whether that was the stable version before the disputes began) as the reference, in order to be sure exactly what we are discussing. The current version has not been changed in two weeks and should not be changed while discussion is in progress. So please state what you want to change in reference to the current (26 January) version of the article. It is even more important to be precise than to be concise, so do not worry about being too lengthy if you are providing exact material. Other than that, be concise.
Robert McClenon (talk) 02:27, 11 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Boynamedsue says that there should be a section on "Anti-Roma sentiment". There is a section on "Discrimination, racism, and social exclusion". Would this be a change in the title of the section, or a subsection within that section, or a separate section.
Boynamedsue refers to omitting the statements by Attila Lakatos. Where should those statements not be?
Please provide the quote from Zsolt Bayer.
Kiengir refers to full inclusion or zero inclusion. Please provide the full text of anything for which full inclusion is an option.
Second statement by Boynamedsue
The deleted anti-Roma sentiment sub-section would be restored within the "Violence against Roma" subsection following the paragraph ending "The government was forced to pay damages to the Roma victims." The two paragraphs of deleted text would be restored immediately following the new subsection title, before the paragraph starting "Members of mainstream Hungarian political parties..."
The text re. Zsolt Bayer would be positioned after the paragraph of the current "Violence against Roma" section which ends "Pásztor replied that his statements were not based on statistics, but on mentions of offender ethnicity in reports made by victims of crime." Its text could be the following, or similar:
The paragraphs containing the statements of Lakatos are not currently in the text, the first was at one time positioned at the end of the deleted two paragraphs, and the second was at the end of the Zsolt Bayer text linked above.
edit-apologies, I now realise I was imprecise, I should have used "sub-section" all along to refer to the "anti-Roma sentiment" title
the positining of the possible section was given by Boynamedsue well, however this could be only Anti-Roma sentiment and controversy since Boynamedsue wish to add as well controversial material to the article
the locations of Lakatos' statements was given by Boynamedsue well, however he/she spuriously use the reference as two deleted pharagraphs, since one of the Lakatos statements were part of this constellation, and he/she started to remove from this content, and as I said the rest was deleted by policy. Thus, this cannot be handled separately
Boynamedsue provided you a diff which is broader of what you asked, since besides the qoute if contains further material. If so, part of it was deliberately missed as the editor admitted, even if I would take this as the editor's wish of inclusion & omission, just proves the trait I outlined in my first statement. I have to also add, Boynamedsue presented here an introductory sentence that is erroneus/flawed (true this was the form it was included in the article, and later we realized the errors), and have been discussed to amend in the diff presented in (C).
Full inlcusion (A) is provided below, highlighting the two compact sections we are talking about. Please note this is the last stable revision's text, and does not contain any new proposals or elaborations laid down here and/or outlined in (C).
Hence I have to answer here to the moderator's question regarding what I wish to change reference to the current revision of the article, as I outlined already, I have optional preferences:
1. if full inclusion preferred, the necessary related amendments laid down in (C) are necessary.
2. if zero inlcusion preferred, still the related amendments laid down in (C) are necessary
3. (C) contains a new consensus proposal based on the aforementioned requirements, in which the proposed text to inlcude is provided (this would solve the lower section, and may be amalgamated with my 1. proposal, replacing there lower section as stated).
UPPER SECTION
Anti-Roma sentiment
Anti-Roma attitudes and discrimination have existed continuously in Hungary since the dissolution of the Austro-Hungarian empire, and these views have often been mirrored or encouraged by anti-Roma policies and rhetoric from political parties and several governments.[1] The 2019 Pew Research poll found that 61% of Hungarians held unfavorable views of Roma.[2] According to the Society for Threatened Peoples, the Roma are "consciously despised by the majority population," while anti-Roma attitudes are becoming more open.[3] A range of negative views of Roma are common among the majority population, research in 2011 showed that 60% of Hungarians feel Roma have criminality "in their blood" and 42% supported the right of bars to refuse to allow Roma to enter.[4]
In 2006, in the town of Olaszliszka, a schoolteacher was lynched by family members and neighbours of a Roma girl who he had hit with his car, the locals erroneously believing that the girl had been killed or seriously injured in the incident.[5][6][7][8] This crime was utilised by the extreme-right racist political party Jobbik to introduce anti-Roma discourse into the Hungarian media, characterising the murderers as a "gypsy mob" and demanding a solution to supposed "gypsy crime".[6][7][8][5] According to Feischmidt, this identification of gypsies with crime, which is not supported by statistical evidence, is fomented by new media accounts linked to the far-right, which leads to further racism, discrimination and violence against the Roma.[9] The "Gypsy Crime" narrative serves to present majority ethnic Hungarians as an in-group who are victims of an inherently criminal Roma out-group, serving the racist nationalist narrative of far-right groups.[6][7][8][5] The moral panic around so-called "gypsy crime" has been identified as a contributory factor to the very real racial violence suffered by Hungarian Roma, which police authorities frequently refuse to identify as hate crimes.[8][3][10] Attila Lakatos, the Roma Voivode of Borsod-Abaúj-Zemplén County (inofficial historical title among the Roma community) approved and openly declared that gypsy criminality is an existing phenomenon:
"Some type of crimes are connected to Roma primarily. Not exclusively, but mostly. It's undeniable."[11]
LOWER SECTION
In 2013, the governing Fidesz party refused to condemn the comments of their leading supporter Zsolt Bayer,[12][13] who wrote:
"a significant part of the Gypsies is unfit for coexistence... They are not fit to live among people. These Gypsies are animals, and they behave like animals... These animals shouldn’t be allowed to exist. In no way. That needs to be solved - immediately and regardless of the method."
However, some members of the party openly criticised the statement's style and form or condemned it as not suitable. Deputy Prime Minister Tibor Navracsics criticised the statement. Later Bayer declared his words were taken out of context and misunderstood, as his goal was to stir up public opinion, but denied racial discrimination and reinforced he wish to segregate from the society only those Roma people who are "criminal" and "incapable and unfit for co-existence". The comments led to an advertising boycott of Bayer's Magyar Hírlap newspaper.[14] Afterwards, Attila Lakatos declared - by referring to the preceding incident, the manslaughter in Ózd - that there is no excuse for such crimes and approved Bayer's description.[15]
Back-and-forth discussion (Hungarian Romani)
References
^Cite error: The named reference Guglielmo was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
We have said this before- the DRN is not the right place for this. Post on the article's talk page and an interested editor will review your request. We will not edit articles for you here I'm sorry. Nightenbelle (talk) 15:29, 7 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
I was asked to provide additional citations in support of a section of the Frederick S. Jaffe page regarding a memo he wrote in 1969. I have provided new wording for the section which I believe totally meets the requested additions. However, I am not allowed to post the new material since I am the son of the subject. So I am just looking for someone to post it. The new wording is at [13]
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
I just need someone to review the new text, see if all claims are properly cited, and then post it to the Frederick S. Jaffe page.
Summary of dispute by
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Frederick S. Jaffe discussion
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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Very limited discussion so far, which has been aggressive at best, combative at worst. Before you can file at the DRN there must have been extensive Good Faithed effort to resolve this dispute yourself. At this point, I would recommend extended (longer than 3 or 4 messages) discussion trying to find a compromise, or a WP:3O or maaaaaaybe an WP:RFC But at this point- a DRN is premature. Nightenbelle (talk) 22:17, 7 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
I have tried to add a line in the lead stating that prominent Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny has been banned from running in the election, possibly due to political motivations. This was the case in the 2018 election, and was noted in the lead of that election's article (Navalny has been in the news a bit recently, but was already banned from running in any elections since 2017 until after 2028). Mr Savva keeps removing this content however, and when I took it to the talk page the user was very reluctant and slow to reply to the first message and carried on editing the article regardless, and now some days later have started removing the content without replying to the talk page discussion at all (they have only made one short entry on that list some time ago, and only made that after I sent them a message on their talk page asking them to participate in the debate). I've repeatedly reminded them to engage in the talk page debate, but they just insist in edit summaries that because the information is already in the body of the article (disqualified candidates) section then it can't be in the lead. But surley the lead should summarise important points in the article?
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Talk:2024_Russian_presidential_election#Mr_Savva - I have attempted an extensive discussion over the last week and outlined my points in quite a lot of detail but the other user has stopped engaging in the debate, [15] - I tried to encourage them to reply to the talk page as they were starting to ignore it
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
Since the user is not complying by not participating in the talk page discussion, I just wanted some input to advise whether the inclusion of this content is allowed and to confirm whether it is wrong to prohibit the inclusion of a mention in the lead because "it is already in the main body of the article". I would have thought the purpose of the lead is to summarise important points in the main body.
Summary of dispute by Mr Savva
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2024 Russian presidential election discussion
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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hi, currently we have had a discussion among some users (including one sockpuppet in favour of the deletion, which poisoned the discussion) about whether a statement by this politician can be inserted or not. I found a total of 5 RS for this statement.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
We would need someone to tell if this information can be included in the article or not. (Currently it has been removed, some parts also from the sockpuppet).
Summary of dispute by Nicoljaus
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Summary of dispute by Jurisdicta
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Summary of dispute by My very best wishes
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Summary of dispute by PailSimon
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Summary of dispute by Alaexis
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Summary of dispute by OhNoitsJamie
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Summary of dispute by Darkcloud2222
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Summary of dispute by
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Alexei Navalny discussion
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Volunteer Note - It appears that a survey was in progress before it was disrupted by sockpuppetry. There are eight editors involved, which is more than can normally be handled effectively for moderated discussion. A Request for Comments is normally preferred with a large number of editors. It appears that the survey was meant to provide the same function as an RFC without the formalities. So my recommendation is that the filing editor request assistance from a volunteer in converting the survey into a formal RFC. The closer of the RFC will disregard sockpuppets. The filing editor has not notified the other editors of the filing here. They should do that, but that need not delay working to set up the RFC. Does the filing editor want assistance in setting up an RFC? Robert McClenon (talk) 03:21, 11 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your help @Robert McClenon: and for your patience. Can I just ask you to wait a few more days? The points that are under discussion now seem to have multiplied, and I have yet to figure out how to try to resolve the whole issue.--Mhorg (talk) 15:31, 12 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This is a clear case. A quote from a person is not a WP:RS for census information. This information needs to come from official reports only. If there is some kind of controversy over the numbers- that can be covered separately in a section of an article as appropriate- but not in an info box. This was already explained at the WP:RSNB and the DRN is not going to overturn that consensus here. My recommendation is to remove the source and find a better one. But an Infobox is just that- a box with information. If you need to hash out details- do it in an article somewhere, not there. Nightenbelle (talk) 21:18, 11 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
This discussion is going on for a while since 2019 . there is an issue regarding the usage of a source in the Pashtuns wiki page (infobox) , this source is used: [16]. Which is about the population of "Pashtuns" in India. The number that is now mentioned in the infobox is 3.200.000 while there is no single ethnographic source that supports this great number neither it is mentioned in the official Indian census. The source that is being used: an interview of a "famous person" who has an organisation that has no website and only a Facebook page with 300 likes. (btw the wiki page created for this organisation has more info than the Facebook site, this page is created by the same editor that added the source.) an Important fact to mention is that on other wiki pages of ethnolinguistic groups of India; we all use the official Indian census of 2011 such as at Punjabis, Bengalis, Kashmiris etc We did not reach a consensus but still the editor put the 2011 census for the Pashtuns only in the notes but this did not solve the problem to begin with.... Also important to note is that the interviewee claims that these 3.2M Pashtuns are not registered (refugees) which is again a dubious claim since the UNCHR (refugee organisation) in India does not confirm this either. For example: If a person of a random Japanese American organisation claims that there are 45.000.000 Japanese in America (in an interview), should we see that as a reliable source?
Can we use interviews as reliable sources for ethnolinguistic population counts? The interviewee (a famous person) claims that there are 3.2M Pashtuns in India. While the official government language census speaks of 21.800 Pashto speakers in India which is the official census of India. So this is the Issue here: the source for a population count; census vs interview of a famous person.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
[17][18] (Since our conflict/issue is only about the usage of this specific source and in this notice board of reliable sources. The volunteers who reacted found it as unreliable)
[19]
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
Since this discussion is politically sensitive this can go on & on
Judging whether this source (the lady who gave the interview claiming there are 3.2M Pashtuns in India) can be seen reliable for the usage of an ethnolinguistic population count. Should this source be used instead of the Indian census that we used pre-2019 febr......Since it's only this source that claims this number. Can we use this source as a population count in the infobox?
Summary of dispute by Anupam.
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Pashtuns discussion
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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The page was previously deleted for not being reliable where I had voted a delete myself, but now as I find it reliable I created it with completely new sources which in compilation of overall article makes the subject clearly pass GNG, Now as I am trying to improve the article by adding reliable sources which shows that the subject has won the World Bloggers Awards in Cannes and the ref is This I was said that The sources you're adding are utterly unreliable and cannot be used which I failed to understand how come this source be unreliable?, There are more references which are being removed from the article which I feel in order to make it look failing GNG like This] from BBC which states he was interviewed by them and other links too, someone who has won 2 Major awards and is currently nominated under one more major reliable award plus has been listed in Forbes 30 under 30 catagory is being said to have all these references unreliable and when they failed to get the page deleted under WP:G4 they renominated it for AFd, Thats not the problem Though, The problem is not allowing me edit the page forcefully making the subject a non notable one who has won Awards like Nickelodeon Kids' Choice Awards India ?
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
as per over all sources available I feel that the subject clearly passes GNG line, But unfortunately despite of helping me get the article created it is being forced to get deleted stating as non notable, I wish an Un-baised scrutiny for the present references and then to get it resolved as per their value, Thanks.
Summary of dispute by Praxidicae
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Summary of dispute by Bonadea
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Ashish Chanchlani discussion
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– General close. See comments for reasoning.
– Discussion in progress.
– New discussion.