Talk:India

RfC about the starting date of Hinduism

Should the introduction of the India article continue to suggest the "dawning of Hinduism" circa 1200 BCE ? ("By 1200 BCE, an archaic form of Sanskrit, an Indo-European language, had diffused into India from the northwest, unfolding as the language of the Rigveda, and recording the dawning of Hinduism in India." [1]). Discussion so far has failed, and is accessible above. Please answer Yes or No, with justification पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 08:09, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

• Objection: this is not a neutrally phrased RfC and therefore not valid. You cannót ask the respondents to answer in Yes or No. You are not a prosecution attorney. An RfC is not a vote. It is a request for comment. I go to sleep for a few hours and there is a feeding frenzy in that time. Was there any previous discussion about an RfC? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:24, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

>Yes, there was a previous discussion about an RfC at Talk:India#Enough, to which you already objected by saying "A Featured Article on Wikipedia is a democracy of sources, not of voting editors."... which is not very Wikipedian to say the least. An RfC was also recommended by Administrator EdJohnston this morning in the same decision that gave you a warning for edit-warring on the India page [2]. And no, this RfC is as neutrally phrased as can be. पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 11:05, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

• Neutral phrasing Comments are requested for the following sentence to replace the one currently in place:

  ""By 1200 BCE, an [[Proto-language|archaic form]] of [[Sanskrit]], an [[Indo-European language]], had [[Trans-cultural diffusion|diffused]] into India from the northwest; [[Oral transmission|orally transmitted]] with exceptional fidelity as the language of the ''[[Rigveda]]'', it recorded the first evidence of what later became [[Hinduism]]."

  (the citations are to the sources collected with generous quotes in the section above, especially to John Lowe, Michael Witzel, and Wendy Doniger for the dates and to Stephanie Jamison and Joel Brereton, Gavin Flood, and Axel Michaels for the first evidence. Fritz Staal and Witzel for the fidelity of the transmission. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:48, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

• The one currently in place is: "By 1200 BCE, an [[Proto-language|archaic form]] of [[Sanskrit]], an [[Indo-European language]], had [[Trans-cultural diffusion|diffused]] into India from the northwest, [[Oral transmission|unfolding]] as the language of the ''[[Rigveda]]'', and recording the dawning of [[Hinduism]] in India. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:48, 7 April 2021 (UTC) Updated. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:28, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

> We have to make it clear that Hinduism is a synthesis of various traditions, or that Vedism is but a contribution to Hinduism (admitedly a major one), and not insinuate by ommission that Hinduism is merely an evolution from Vedism, which it is not (your problematic "it recorded ... what later became Hinduism). पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 11:19, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

That is the subject of the sentence after the next one for which I have already proposed an amendment. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:32, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

And here is that amendment:

By 400 BCE, Hinduism had begun to exhibit its more representative heterodox, or classical, features; stratification and exclusion by caste had emerged within it;[29] and Buddhism and Jainism had arisen, proclaiming social orders unlinked to heredity."[30]

In additon to the citations already in place, the sentence has further support in the references compiled in the section above, in particular in Jamison and Brereton; Witzel, and others. As this RfC is about the first sentence, not the development of Classical Hinduism, we cannot contaminate it with something it is not about. Still, here is Gavin Flood (from the list of references above: "I take the term ‘Hinduism to meaningfully denote a range and history of practice characterized by a number of features, particularly reference to Vedic textual and sacrificial origins, belonging to endogamous social units (jati/varna), participating in practices that involve making an offering to a deity and receiving a blessing (puja), and a first-level cultural polytheism. (p. 4) and Michael Witzel: "Puja, however, is a clear continuation of the Ṛgvedic guest worship offered to the gods. ... True heterodoxy is attested by ca. 400 BCE when several such systems had developed including those of wandering teachers such as the Buddha and Mahāvīra. (p. 90)" Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:58, 7 April 2021 (UTC) Updated Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:16, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

• No per nomination. The academic consensus is that Hinduism (the "Hindu synthesis") started almost a millennium later, around 500 BCE, and that it was quite different from the Vedic religion that preceeded it. Claiming "the dawning of Hinduism circa 1200 BCE" is therefore highly misleading, and not supported by reliable sources. There is no denying the existence of formative influences going back possibly as far as the Indus Valley Civilization, but the emergence of Hinduism as a religion is a comparatively late phenomenon, roughly coeveal with the rise of the Sramanic religions (Buddhism etc..) from around 500 BCE. पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 08:09, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

SUMMARY This sentence is problematic in many more ways than one: "By 1200 BCE, an archaic form of Sanskrit, an Indo-European language, had diffused into India from the northwest, unfolding as the language of the Rigveda, and recording the dawning of Hinduism in India." [3]. It has to be seen as a carefully crafted piece of prose (which it is, its author can be credited for that...), where every word, every nuance, every association of idea and insinuation counts...

1) The suggested date for the start of Hinduism (1200 BCE) is a gross distortion of history (and of the sources), since Hinduism is very generally considered to be a synthesis of previous traditions, which started around 500 BCE, with roots or formative elements possibly going as far back as the Indus Valley Civilization. But this distortion of the starting date of Hinduism is only the basis for something darker and deeper....

2) The poetic and figurative word "dawning" has been defended adamantly, when simpler and less ambiguous alternatives abound. Why not use "beginnings" for example? It is claimed that "dawning" is only used in the figurative (abstract) sense here, but in any such word the literal meaning is organically linked to the figurative meaning. There is almost no reason to doubt that the use of this rare/antiquated/quaint/ambiguous/unsourced expression "dawning of Hinduism" is intentional, and is only meant to convey the insinuation that India was in miserable darkness before the rising sun of the "glorious arrival" of the Aryans, as User:Kautilya3 perceptively suggested [4]. Good writing in an encyclopedia should on the contrary strive for simplicity and clarity, and the removal of all ambiguities. There should be no room for double-entendre and nefarious innuendos.

3) By also claiming that the "dawn of Hinduism" happened under the Aryans in 1200 BCE, the sentence suggests in one breath that Hinduism developed under the Aryan invaders, insinuating that the religion of the Hindus owes its birth to the Aryans, rather then to the "creative syncretic genius" of the Indians circa 500 BCE. This is quite a distortion, and almost a case of cultural misappropriation. These distortions in effect attempt to deprive Hindus of their religious achievements and disparage their cultural heritage (a recurrent tendency of the author [5][6]).

4) To compound all this, the sentence, although linguistic on the surface, is actually intended as a metaphor of the Aryan invasion, by the author's own admission "The sentence is not about Hinduism in general. It is about the Indo-Aryan migration whose only evidence is the Rg Ved" [7], hence the strange wording "diffused into India from the northwest, unfolding as...". We are not talking about cultural influences here, but about the armed invasion of the Aryans, whose Rig Veda embodies "the first gleams of Hinduism".... which is again basically saying "the Aryan invasion brought Hinduism to the Indians".

In a nutshell, this painstakingly crafted sentence deforms the historical reality of the birth of Hinduism (actually circa 500 BCE), in order to advance it to the Aryan invasion (circa 1200 BCE) to insinuate that Aryans can be credited for its inception, in effect suggesting that Aryans "brought the light" to the Indians who had been living in darkness and obscurantism, and that everything the Indians believe in today was actually the gift of the "glorious" Aryan invaders. There is no denying that many foreign influences were at play in ancient India (Aryan, Achaemenid, Greek, Scythian, Kushan etc...), but Hinduism is an invention of the "syncretic genius" of the Indians from circa 500 BCE, it is very different from the Aryan's "pure worship of the elementary forces of nature" [8]. Hinduism did incorporate several concepts from the Historical Vedic religion, but also from Buddhism, Jainism and, mostly, local anthropomorphological popular cults, a substrate possibly going back to the Indus Valley Civilization (see History of Hinduism). It is actually much more, and in effect a very different religion, an accomplishment of Indian syncretism elaborated from circa 500 BCE, with formative roots possibly going back to 3000-2000 BCE, as explained by the sources. No, Hinduism did not "dawn" under the Aryans circa 1200 BCE. पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 06:39, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

• No. I suggest replacing "recording the dawning of Hinduism in India" to "seeding a religious heritage that was later to become Hinduism". -- Kautilya3 (talk) 08:39, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

"seeding a religious heritage that later contributed to the emergence of Hinduism" is more accurate. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 10:05, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Things are falling into place following Kautilya3's perceptive comment above. I am getting so sick with the sectarian/racist innuendos at this point, which I realize are probably quite pervasive in this article and a few other related ones... Can we try to avoid the word "seeding" please? How about some good straightforward language such as "recording" as in "recording the Vedic religion, which was later to contribute to the rise of Hinduism" for example. पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 10:58, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

• • I am also happy with Joshua Jonathan's (JJ's) proposal below. JJ is the principal author of the page on Hinduism and he is fully conversant with all the issues concerning the development of Hinduism. The present text is a distortion of what the sources state. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 08:08, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
  • I too fully agree with Joshua Jonathan's proposals, which factually reflect the history of Vedism and Hinduism, without distortion of the sources or ambiguous vocabulary, and are much needed improvements to this article. "Whatever is well conceived is clearly said, And the words to say it flow with ease." पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 08:45, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
• No. Stick to the sources: "record Aryan culture, one of the predecessors of Hinduism." And add some info in the body of the article on the emergence of the Hindu synthesis, and on the emergence of Puranic Hinduism; the lead should summarize the article. I've already done a proposal for the emergence of the Hindu synthesis.

Between 500–200 BCE and c. 300 CE the "Hindu synthesis" developed, which incorporated Sramanic and Buddhist influences and the emerging bhakti tradition into the Brahmanical fold via the smriti literature. This synthesis emerged under the pressure of the success of Buddhism and Jainism.

References

Stating "By 400 BCE, Hinduism had begun to exhibit its more representative, or classical, features" suggests that there already existed a well-defined "Hinduism" at 400 BCE, which began to develop further then. This is misleading; the "Hindu synthesis" just started to develop then. More accurate, for the lead, would be: " Around 400 BCE, the Hindu synthesis emerged, with its representative heterodox [etc.]."

Additionally, to "Under the Gupta's," add "who sponsored both Vaishnavism and Buddhism." For Puranic Hinduism: replace "resurgence of Hinduism" (another popular misconception, see Adi Shankara#Critical assessment, and at odds with the "renewed Hinduism" of the Gupta's) with

After the end of the Gupta Empire and the collapse of the Harsha Empire, power became decentralized, local cults and languages were enhanced, and the influence of "Brahmanic ritualistic Hinduism" was diminished. Rural and devotional movements arose, along with Shaivism, Vaisnavism, Bhakti and Tantra, The Brahmanism of the Dharmashastras and the smritis underwent a radical transformation at the hands of the Purana composers, resulting in the rise of Puranic Hinduism,

References

Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 09:47, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

"Hindu synthesis" here is more like: WP:SYNTHESIS. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:09, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

It's the term used by Hiltebeitel, in contrast to your personal interpretation of sources, which don't mention a "dawning of Hinduism" at 1200 BCE. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 15:44, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Oh, I understand the term as used; I was talking about your sentence. Please see Gavin Flood and Witzel, whose quotes I am about to add separately from my list of sources. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:03, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Regarding "it recorded the first evidence of what later became Hinduism," the sources state that the Rig Veda record the Aryan culture, and is "the earliest evidence for what will become Hinduism." Why this strange, and confusing, synthesis of two different sentences? Just stick to the sources, and state the obvious: 'the Rig Veda "records the Aryan culture," and is "the earliest evidence for what will become Hinduism." The Rig Veda does not record the evidence, it is the evidence. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:29, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

• No opinion on the factual aspects, but the use of "unfolding" for a language reads oddly to me: "evolving" might be a more usual term. The same goes for "dawning", where "emergence" might be more neutral. So By 1200 BCE, an archaic form of Sanskrit, an Indo-European language, had diffused into India from the northwest, evolving as the language of the Rigveda, and recording the emergence of Hinduism in India. Bazza (talk) 09:59, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

"Recording the emergence of Hinduism in India" is not what the sources say, as noted before; they speak of "recording Aryan culture." Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 10:03, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

@Joshua Jonathan:You will read above that I said I had no opinion on the factual aspects, but was commenting on the wording in the question. Bazza (talk) 10:47, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

No they don't. The two translators in their magnum opus, 2014 (3-volume translation) and one-volume guide are very clear. Here is the guide: Jamison, Stephanie; Brereton, Joel (2020), The Rigveda: A Guide, Oxford University Press, pp. 1, 2, 4, ISBN 978-0-19-063339-4, "The Rgveda is a monumental text with signal significance for both world religion and world literature; yet it is comparatively little known outside a small band of specialists, even among those who study the religious traditions of India. The oldest Sanskrit text, composed probably in the latter half of the second millennium Bce, it stands, at least nominally, as the foundational text of what will later be called Hinduism, and one of its verses, the so-called Gayatri mantra, is part, at least nominally, of the daily practice of those initiated into Vedic learning. (p. 1) ... The RgVeda is one of the four Vedas, which together constitute the oldest texts in Sanskrit and the earliest evidence for what will become Hinduism. (p. 2) Although Vedic religion is very different in many regards from what is known as Classical Hinduism, the seeds are there. Gods like Visnu and Siva (under the name Rudra), who will become so dominant later, are already present in the Rgveda, though in roles both lesser than and different from those they will later play, and the principal Rgvedic gods like Indra remain in later Hinduism, though in diminished capacity (p. 4). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:26, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Your original sources do, and you know that. In case of doubt, or dispute, just stick to the sources as close as possible, and state the obvious: 'the Rig Veda "records the Aryan culture," and is "the earliest evidence for what will become Hinduism."' How hard is it, to admit that improvements are possible? You're given an opportunity to make your beloved FA-article even better; it's up to you to take it. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 03:39, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

An RFC is a Request for Comment, not a vetting of "original sources." You could have simply requested, "please improve the sources." But instead, you guys started a long song and dance— not you so much, but user: Pat—I would have easily given you Jamison and Brereton (guide, 2020), which I own, though the 3-volume set (2014) I don't; it is frightfully expensive. There is nothing wrong with "dawning." It has a simple figurative meaning. I gave you the OED definition. I always choose my words very carefully. You had suggested "early dawning." Another possibility was "first dawning" (per Isaac Newton's famous quote: "I keep the subject constantly before me and wait till the first dawnings open slowly by little and little into full and clear light." Somewhere below or above user: Kautilya3 was expressing dissatisfaction with "dawning," because he claimed it suggested that the subcontinent was dark before. But it is figurative usage. Newton was not in the dark, he was the world's most famous scientist when he stated that. User: Pat, moreover, has run away with it into realms of ill-framed post-colonial interpretations, i.e. that "seeding" (which in verb form, in any case, is not a favorite word of mine) as suggested by K3 (and implicitly by Jamison and Brereton) is also Western Orientalist, racist, thinking. You, JJ, I have found to be a reasonable editor who keeps an open mind. Why are you involved in this silly RfC? (A man is judged by the company he keeps.) User: Pat's understanding seems to be "Hinduism" was a new religion wandering in the marketplace of religions and it mixed and matched a little bit of Vedic mythology and religion, a little bit of Buddhism, and a few other faiths of wandering teachers. Obviously, that is incorrect. If that were the case, the priestly class would not have survived, the caste system (varna) would not have survived. Anyway, I leave your stance in this RFC to your better judgment. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:26, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

It's precisley because the priestly class "mixed and matched a little bit of Vedic mythology and religion, a little bit of Buddhism, and a few other faiths of wandering teachers," and a host of local traditions, that the priestly class survived, and Hinduism came into existence. As explained at Hindu synthesis. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:12, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

But that is not the same thing as appearing fresh on the scene and mixing and matching other religions; they already had a religion that adapted a little but had a long history, from late in the second millennium BCE. The same with the caste system, it had been around since the Indo-Aryans set foot on the subcontinent and began to subjugate the artisans and forest dwellers when they did not kill them outright. It survived gloriously, despite its non-existence in Buddhism and Jainism. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:53, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes of course! And that's also so fascinating, how the relgion - and ideology - of a kingly state in the doab from 1000 BCE came to be formative for a whole continent and beyond, up to our present times. Fascinating! Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 12:05, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

I don't understand that comment. If you are trying to be fictiotious, please don't. Things are confusing enough already. Indra, the king of Vedic gods is considered a clown in Hinduism. How people can confuse Vedism and Hinduism is beyond me. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:51, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: You have hurted my religious sentiments by calling Lord Indra as "clown". Please strike or remove your comment and apologize. LearnIndology (talk) 14:52, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Sorry LearnIndology, this is an encyclopedic, international, discussion, and we do have freedom of speech. Clearly, gratuitous personal insults are not allowed (although they are recurrent with some users), but here Kautilya3 is simply making an educated point. पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 15:17, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Calling our deity "clown" is not freedom of speech, it is mental abuse and trolling. I am shocked how common and easy it is to abuse Hindus on Wikipedia and get away with it easily. Kautilya3 needs to apologize. LearnIndology (talk) 15:39, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

On Wikipedia, we follow WP:RNPOV and there is no intent to offend any one. If you are that easily offended, then you need to withdraw from the discussion. Reliable sources back what I said [9]. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:50, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Absolutely पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 15:56, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

ABC-CLIO is hardly reliable. I used to think they were in a low-brow fashion, but they published a book in which my articles on Indian famines had been copied (verbatim): See here. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:24, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler, I am not sure if your comment is relevant at all to the discussion at hand. Anyway, does a single occurence of an author managing to sneak in a paraphrase of a paragraph of an article, suffice to condemn a whole publisher such as ABC-Clio as being "hardly reliable"... even if this is your very own prose and unmistakable style? Isn't this slightly disproportionate? Is ABC-Clio generally considered as "hardly reliable" or is it just your own personal interpretation of the sources? Does this affect in any way the perceptive academic analysis made by George M. Williams, Emeritus Professor of Religious Studies at California State University? Note that his book Handbook of Hindu Mythology has also been published by the Oxford University Press in 2008 [10], but are they too "hardly reliable"? पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 04:18, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

A clown Indra is not. He remains the God of Thunder, and schoolchildren in India know about that, and call him "Indra Bhagawan." There are probably not too many temples dedicated to him, but little statues and figurines of him, in the throne of heaven with his court around him, are still popular in parts of South India around Navarathri. In any case, Hinduism is not just the one found in India, but also in Southeast Asia (Thailand, small parts of Indonesia), and Indra is very much worshipped there. The caste system, endorsed by Hinduism, of course, as JJ is implying remains the world's oldest extant system of apartheid. And I'm not being dramatic or allegoric, but there was a genocide of sorts committed, followed by enslavement, exclusion, and stratification in the years and centuries after the Indo-Aryans appeared in India, especially as the major deforestation of the upper Ganges plain began (which is probably what JJ means by the doab). That Indians are nowhere near acknowledging it probably means that the caste system will be around for another 100 years. It will eventually go when arranged marriages go, and that is nowhere near happening. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:54, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

From the historical demographer Tim Dyson's A Population History of India, Oxford University Press, 2018, p. 16:

the settlement of the Ganges basin by Indo-Aryan speaking people was an extremely long and arduous process. The texts of the Vedas refer to Arya victories over dasas, their darker-skinned enemies.44 And the process of settlement well may well have involved driving communities out, appropriating women, and the enslavement of pre-existing peoples.

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:12, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

There is a fatal flaw in Kautilya3's argument. Even if we suppose Indra is no longer worshipped, it is not at all clear that he was not in Classical Hindusim, ca 400 BCE to 500 CE, and post-classical Hinduism until the 15th century CE. Sculptures of him riding his elephant abound in much temple art. Here are a few pictures from WP: File:12th-century Vedic Indra and Indrani at Shaivism Hindu temple Hoysaleswara arts Halebidu Karnataka India (crop).jpg (btw, the "vedic" is added by the uploader or perhaps the art historian who named it, but it is a Hindu temple we are talking about, long after Classical Hinduism has formed); File:Indra deva.jpg, File:Indra Indrani and Airavat at hoysaleshwar temple.jpg, File:Indra with Indrani, 13th century Keshava temple Somanathpur.jpg, File:Indra,_Brahma,_Shiva,_Vishnu_and_Surya.jpg (Konarak), ... There are dozens and dozens on WP alone, not counting Indra in other South Asian art, or Southeast Asian art until the 17th century. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:30, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

It is not a question of worshipping. As we know, Hindus are happy to worship practically everything. But if the main god of the Vedic pantheon has been unrecognizably demoted and defamed, you can't continue beating the drum that it is the same religion that is still being practised. It quite defies common sense. It is even ridiculous that we are having such a big argument about it. Why don't you just go and find an honest-to-goodness textbook on Hinduism and read it? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:50, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: As we know? Hindus are happy to worship anything? Please don't distort the issue at stake here. The Lead of the India page says: "By 1200 BCE, an archaic form of Sanskrit, an Indo-European language, had diffused into India from the northwest, unfolding as the language of the Rigveda, and recording the dawning of Hinduism in India." I have repeatedly stated that the noun "dawning," a nominalization of the verb "dawn," did once have the meaning of the noun "dawn" (e.g. Shakespear "the bird of dawning"), but that is now archaic or poetic. Its current meaning is figurative, "The first gleam or appearance" Yet you and your cohorts in the RFC keep insisting on distorting the meaning.

Please also don't be patronizing about what I should be reading ("Why don't you just go and find an honest-to-goodness textbook on Hinduism and read it? And please don't remove your comment after I have posted my reply).

I have on my shelves: Gavin Flood's Blackwell Companion to Hinduism with an article by Michael Witzel on "Vedas and Upaniṣads;" Stephanie W. Jamison and Joel Berenson's Ṛgveda, OUP, 2020 (a companion to their 3-volume translation of Ṛgveda, OUP, 2014) from both of which I have quoted above. I also have in my study books ranging from Wendy Donigers Hindu Myths: A Sourcebook, translated from the Sanskrit. Penguin Classics; The Rig Veda: An Anthology, 108 Hymns Translated from the Sanskrit, Penguin Classics; I also have Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan's translations of the Gita and his "Hindu View of Life." I also have R. C. Zaehner's Hinduism. I have Patrick Olivelle's Oxford World Classics translation of selections from the Upanishads; I also have J. A. B. van Buitenen's Bhagavadgita in the Mahabharata and W. J. Johnson's The Sauptikaparvan of the Mahabharata: The Massacre at Night (Oxford World's Classics); I have Gandhi's translation of the Gita, titled Anasaktyoga. I have Edwin Arnold's first edition of The Song Celestial (his translation of the Gita), as well as the famous edition from the 1930s illustrated by Willy Pogany. I can upload a picture of any of those books with my WP user page in the background, so tired I am of your patronizing and wilfully obfuscting post. Please be very careful about telling to read about anything, not least in a patronizing manner. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:51, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

So, if you have sources and have read them, then you should be able to point out how or whether they contradict Williams' analysis, instead of displaying pictures of temple art. Note also how your list displays the preconceived equation between Vedism and Hinduism, for instance by listing Witzel's "Vedas and Upanishads" and ignoring the other chapters. This just displays obstinacy and insularity rather than a spirit of openness. You have made up your mind, and, if anybody doesn't fall in line, something is wrong with them! -- Kautilya3 (talk) 08:56, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

• Except for Bazza7 and Kautilya3, everyone else is shunting the same garbage repeating or reworking their previously made comments back and forth; indeed they are using Sfn's from a previous posting, as if they are going to tell us anything here, when the full sources are not given! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:24, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

I am pinging Administrators Doug Weller and EdJohnston for the unacceptable incivility of the above message by Fowler&fowler: "everyone else is shunting the same garbage back and forth". पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 12:13, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

The full sources have been belatedly added, but my point is already made. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:26, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

• Although I have expressed my distaste for this prosecution attorney-like Yes or No, and have proposed a more neutral and nuanced alternative, in case someone is counting Yes's and No's, my vote is obviously Yes. Aman.kumar.goel's preference in the many instances of offering input is also Yes. LearnIndology has also given a preference for Yes. With three yes's and three no's, I don't think this RfC, as originally worded in POV-language, is going anywhere. It is best to abandon it, and wait for the formal FAR which will begin sometime late this spring or early in the summer. As such, this RfC is wasting the time of productive editors which would be better employed prepping the article for the FAR. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:45, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler:

1) The two users your are pinging above have not appeared yet in this RfC. By your very post pinging them you appear to be WP:CANVASSING, which is very surprising and unwise for an established user, and again contrary to Wikipedia rules (pinging Administrator EdJohnston). And of course you conveniently forget to mention User:Johnbod (note I am not pinging him) who has already shown strong opposition to your distortion of sources. Not only is pinging for supporters in an RfC fondamentally against the rules and morally reprehensible, it is also counter-productive as the legitimacy and validity of the posts of canvassed users is greatly weakened.

2) The objective of an RfC is precisely to broaden the discussion to other Wikipedians when a discussion has broken down, which you have clearly provoked by your stubbornness to refuse any changes before this RfC was launched. Next time, try to be more open to the proposals of your fellow contributors and avoid WP:OWN. So now, many more editors will come, over many more days, possibly many more weeks, to evaluate your claim of the "dawning of Hinduism" circa 1200 BCE. That's what RfCs are for. पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 17:01, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

They had expressed their wish to keep the current phrasing quite a few times, in each of the subsections, you and others had opened. I saw the same on an RfC on the Kamala Harris page (about characterizing her as the "first African American and South Asian American senator.") A few people had already expressed their support for that before the RfC. They were counted as Supports. People are busy. Not everyone has the time, awareness, to keep track of the endless little changes in eliciting opinions about the same topic. Obviously, your RFC, and the campaign before that, is going nowhere. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:35, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

@Fowler&fowler: By this account, and if you really want to make an early tally, you should have the honesty to count User:Johnbod as a vehement No [11][12][13][14], and ping him like you pinged those who happen to share your ideas. पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 14:01, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

You are welcome to ping him. Even if he gets on board with voting No in your misshapen RfC, it will be 4 to 3, not a consensus. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:13, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Since you have no intention to correct, it is clear you are only and intentionally doing WP:VOTESTACKING. No, I will not ping users to draw them to an RfC, it is against the rules, everybody knows that. पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 14:59, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

• Yes I have already explained why I support the inclusion above. LearnIndology (talk) 17:14, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

With the statement Most academics like myself do not distinguish between a separate Vedic Religion and Modern Hindu Religion, although they do distinguish between time periods. Find me one author who says that 21st century Hinduism is the same as the Vedic religion from 1200 BCE. Not Jamison and Witzel, who state that the Vedic religion is not the same as Hinduism; not Michaels, who sums up the differences. Think about it two seconds, and you see that your claim is even beyond WP:EXCEPTIONAL. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 03:55, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

I think he doesn't mean that it is the same religion, but that it is the first layer of a historic evolving religion. He has said something similar before. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:38, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

• No, current science is not able to pinpoint to "dawning" of Hinduism. Some scholars already reject the notion, that it began in Vedic times and favor the Harappan period. Here is a quote from Asko Parpola's 2015 introduction citing Renou 1953:

  It would have been quicker to enumerate those elements [of Hinduism] that are demonstrably Aryan: they would consist of perhaps a few functional gods ( as it is the fashion to describe them), the soma cult and the rudiments of a social system: little enough, in all conscience" (Renou 1953:47-48). Regarding the Indus civilization, he suggests: "If the forms of religion revealed in the seals and figurines of the Indus have any remote connection with Indian forms, it is not so much with those of Vedism as with those of Hinduism, a Hinduism which, though known to us only be inference, must have already existed in Vedic times, and probably considerably earlier" (Renou 1953:3)."

  ThaThinThaKiThaTha (talk) 17:26, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

@ThaThinThaKiThaTha: Thank you for the interesting comment. This reminds me of a reflexion by Art Historians Pran Gopal Paul and Paul Debjani, who suggest that the Vedic period was actually suppressive of the anthropomorphological worship visible initially in the Indus Valley Civilization and then reappearing in Hinduism after 500 BCE:

We should do well to remember that the Aryans worshipped purely the elementary forces of nature by means of elaborate sacrifices, together with appropriate hymns. In this scheme of ritual it was not necessary, nor was it possible to substitute the object of exaltation so convincingly by any concrete form, least of all by human figure, without compromising the fundamental attitude of the worshipper to the all-pervasive power that was being propitiated. Such a change in the approach of the tightly-knit Vedic and even post-Vedic society, orchestrated as it was by orthodox priesthood, could not have come of itself. This was possible when such an urge was actually felt by the general masses and that feeling was intensified by the ideological impact of fresh ethnic influx into the Indian social pool.
Paul, Pran Gopal; Paul, Debjani (1989). "Brahmanical Imagery in the Kuṣāṇa Art of Mathurā: Tradition and Innovations". East and West. 39 (1/4): 112–113. ISSN 0012-8376.

पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 19:09, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

"Urges of the general masses," possibly the non-Vedic masses with which the migrating Brahmmins (second urbanizaton) came into contact with. These urges were synthesized with this Brahmanical elite and their practices and religious heritage. Brahmins too need food; if not enough people are interested in paying for the performances of the rituals for your Vedic gods, but they are willing to pay for performing rituals for other gods, well, what do you choose? Kids are hungry, wife is angry, and a rational to justify this inclusion of new gods is easily provided, if the need is there. Hence, early Hinduism: a synthesis of Brahmanical practices and ideology with non-Vedic local religions, the adherents of the latter paying nominal lip-service to the exalted status of the Rig Veda. Everybody happy (well, sort of, mayby). Note, by the way, that it was not Vedism that was integrated with non-Vedic religions, but subsequent Brahmanism, with it's ideology and societal organisation. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:31, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

>>>current science is not able to pinpoint to "dawning" of Hinduism.

@ThaThinThaKiThaTha: It is probably best not to lay claim to the mantle of "current science" and buttress that with a quote from a French Indologist born in 1896

I have repeatedly stated that the noun "dawning," a nominalization, or verbal noun, of the verb dawn does not have the same meaning as the noun "dawn." But everyone here keeps repeating "dawn of Hinduism." "Dawning," today has a figurative meaning of "The first gleam or appearance; earliest beginning." (OED)

Please note in particular "earliest beginning." It is not the beginning; rather it hints at the earliest of multiple beginnings. It is the same as with rivers; and scholars such as Gavin Flood have used the river analogy to described Hinduism. The Ganges doesn't have one beginning. (Please see the headwaters of the Ganges map I drew by hand many years ago.) By the time the river reaches the Bay of Bengal very little of the water it carries is from its Himalayan headwaters. Still, they supply the master narrative.

Please read the four references in footnote 28

Do you disagree with Stephanie W. Jamison and Joel Brereton's assertion that the Rgveda is the first (textual) evidence for what will later become Hinduism?

Do you disagree with Gavin Flood's definition in the same footnote: "I take the term ‘Hinduism to meaningfully denote a range and history of practice characterized by a number of features, particularly reference to Vedic textual and sacrificial origins ...?" Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:24, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

My quote is from Asko Parpola 2015, who cited the French Indologist in his preface (the content which introduces his whole book) - that means, it reflects a current science viewpoint, which had a longer history. Even Gavin Flood (a theologist...) recognized the Indus Valley Civilization as a prominent donor of Hinduism containing earlier elements of it. For my taste, a true Indologists has acquired a good knowledge of both Indo-Aryan and Dravidian heritage (Sanskrit, Tamil, Indus). Very few of the indologists in your list have any Dravidian background, which is a petty. Iravatham Mahadevan (Sanskrit/Tamil expert, see various latest papers) considered the Vedas a partial successor of Indus culture, already heavily mixed. Asko Parpola (Sanskrit/Tamil expert) also has pointed out Indo-Aryan text references on evident Dravidian culture (for instance the whole Hindu astronomy/astrology). The influence on Hinduism is therefore not disputed given it's partially Indian origins. Overall from my personal perspective the quote by Renou seems to stand quite true after all these years and that's why Parpola probably used it. What I have observed over the years is that the Sanskrit experts usually have no or only rudimentary knowledge of Dravidian heritage which results in a wide range of opinions. To your question regarding Brereton: I don't believe Vedas are the first evidence, but certainly the first "textual" evidence if you seriously want to count oral transmission as evidence. Regarding Gavin Flood: Definitley would disagree with the requirement of Vedic texts and sacrifices. I remember that there was a ruling by the Supreme court of India, where the justice described a Hinduism, which includes reverence for Vedic texts, yet there stands ultra-popular Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev who completely rejects Vedas. There is also a major Hindu sect, the Lingayats, who are not only against Vedas, but also the caste system since a very long time. Plenty of Hindus who reject caste system in South India. There are all Hindus... aren't they? ThaThinThaKiThaTha (talk) 17:28, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

@ThaThinThaKiThaTha: I don't think anyone doubts the accuracy of the oral transmission. Please see my section: Indian_mathematics#Oral_tradition. It is much more than a text; the oral transmission has preserved in an unparalleled manner the intonation and the music of the hymns. That is Michael Witzels point in Footnote 27

I have already proposed an NPOV version of the RfC, in which I am asking that the following sentence be considered as a replacement

"By 1200 BCE, an archaic form of Sanskrit, an Indo-European language, had diffused into India from the northwest; orally transmitted with exceptional fidelity as the language of the Rigveda, it recorded the first textual evidence for what later became Hinduism."

Thus "textual" is not really needed, but I'm happy to add it to emphasize that oral transmission in this instance is textual; the Ṛgveda has survived nearly 3200 years as a single text without variant readings, which is more than what we can say about Homer, the ancient Iranian gathas, and so forth. There is a reason that Vedic Sanskrit is the language of choice in Proto-Indo-European reconstructions. (See John Lowe's Footnote 33 in Sanskrit).

But, just as the Indo-European language spoken by the first Indo-Aryan migrants into India was substantially changed in phonology (picking up retroflex sounds) and lexicon (picking up the names of the new flora and fauna), so were their religious beliefs. How could they not? If Akbar the Great ended up with Din-e-Ilahi two generations after Babur, how could the Indo-Aryans from Central Asia (and earlier Southeastern Europe) not be influenced by the society and religions of their adopted lands?

But this is the lead. Space is at a premium. We have one sentence each: for the early Homo sapiens arrivals from Africa; the long period of mutually isolated hunter-gatherer societies; the neolithic villages in the western margins of the Indus; the Indus Valley Civilization of Pakistan and northwestern India; and the arrival of the Indo-Aryans the only evidence for which is the Ṛgveda. There is a sentence or two about the Indo-Aryans and the Vedas in the Ancient History section, but no one has made any attempt to say something there. There is even a religion subsection.

As for poor coverage of the Dravidian contribution in Indian history, culture, and ethos, I could not agree with you more (and one of my goals in the upcoming FAR will be to move the history and culture away a little from the Gangetic Plain.) Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:37, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

@Fowler&fowler:

• Why insist so stubbornly on the poetic and figurative word "dawning", when simpler and less ambiguous alternatives abound? Why not use "beginnings" for example? You claim that "dawning" is only used in the figurative (abstract) sense here, but anyone with a certain level of literacy knowns that such words have multiple meanings, which are conveyed simultaneously: the literal meaning is organically linked to the figurative meaning, otherwise humour and poetry (even literary prose) would not exist. There is almost no reason to doubt that the use of this rare/antiquated/quaint/ambiguous/unsourced expression "dawning of Hinduism" is intentional, and is only meant to convey the insinuation that India was in miserable darkness before the rising sun of the "glorious arrival" of the Aryans, as User:Kautilya3 perceptively suggested [15]. Smart word-crafting, but not so smart: good writing in an encyclopedia should on the contrary strive for simplicity and clarity, and the removal of all ambiguities. There should be no room for double-entendre and nefarious innuendos.
• By also claiming that the "dawning of Hinduism" happened under the Aryans in 1200 BCE, the sentence insinuates in one breath that Hinduism was developed by the Aryan invaders, that the religion of the Hindus owes everything to the Aryans, rather then to the "creative syncretic genius" of the Indians circa 500 BCE. This is quite a distortion of history, and almost a case of cultural misappropriation. These distortions in effect attempt to deprive Hindus of their cultural contribution and heritage: it's like saying "Guys, you know what, all the things you believe in were actually given to you by the Aryans".... Not only is this historically wrong (and unsourced), it is also nothing more than one more step in a 14-year-long and recurrent campaign to denigrate and deprecate the Indian people, and especially Hindus and their history [16][17], and to wage a Muslim-Hindu cultural war [18][19]. This is historical revisionism with a supremacist axe to grind... I don't think there is room on Wikipedia for this kind of distortions and innuendos, and I believe that everything should be rewritten with referenced, precise facts and straightforward, neutral, vocabulary as proposed by User:Joshua Jonathan. पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 17:18, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

• @पाटलिपुत्र: I just saw this in your post above: >>> "it is also nothing more than one more step in a 14-year-long and recurrent campaign to denigrate and deprecate the Indian people, and especially Hindus and their history [20][21], and to wage a Muslim-Hindu cultural war [22][23]<<< Can you please explain, how you have arrived at this assessment of me? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:37, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

@Fowler&fowler: Your diffs speak for themselves Fowler&fowler, and these are but a very very small number of examples. This is unwarranted battleground mentality. Not to mention your innumerable instances of incivil behaviour towards your fellow contributors (a recent example). Can't you realize how innapropriate all that is? Can't you handle some non-sectarian and civil interraction? As User:Kautilya3 perceptively pointed out no later than yesterday "You have made up your mind, and, if anybody doesn't fall in line, something is wrong with them!" [24]. पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 15:20, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

@पाटलिपुत्र: You have made a serious allegation: >>> "it is also nothing more than one more step in a 14-year-long and recurrent campaign to denigrate and deprecate the Indian people, and especially Hindus and their history [25][26], and to wage a Muslim-Hindu cultural war [27][28]<<< Are you aware that the first diff you have supplied was in response to a now indeffed user Highpeaks35. I was using "Hindu garbage" in the sense of " 'Hindu' garbage" in reference to his gratuious use of "Hindu" in the picture captions and in the themes of the pictures. "Hindu" was interpreted as a descriptor in the captions not as a reference to Hindus by admin Vanamonde93, Sitush, and Joshua Johathan. See this discussion on Highpeaks35's talk page just before he was blocked by admin TonyBallioni and eventually indeffed by admin Abecedare. So again, what do you mean by bringing the "Hindu garbage" reference again and again. This is the fourth or fifth time you have brought it up. I consider the reference to a 14-year campaign to be a personal attack and request that youy scratch it, not remove it, only scratch it so that everyone can see it, and preferably apologize as well. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:25, 11 April 2021 (UTC) Updated with ping Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:27, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

@Fowler&fowler: Did you strike anything or apologize when you insulted User:Johnbod, one of the most respected contributors on Wikipedia [29]? Never. Did you strike anything or apologize when you made personal attacks on me [30]? Never. So you should clean your own act before crying out simply because your very own edits are being reported. Everybody who has been here long enough knows that your incivility and sectarian utterances have brought you to ANI multiple times throughout your 14 years-long career on Wikipedia, so it is just a statement of fact. If you don't like it, it's easy: behave with other contributors in a civil manner, stop bullying them everytime they disagree with you [31], and try to be more open to the contributions of others. You have a severe case of WP:OWN on the India page [32], and no decent Wikipedian can accept that. पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 21:00, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

• Yes It cannot be determined correctly (exact time); I support. I have read some verses of Yajurveda, seems like Gita. Hindu religion is based on the Vedas. The values of the Vedas is the most, after the Gita. Vedas are the basis of Hinduism and Hinduism has emerged from them. Yet, it does not say that Hinduism was established at this time. Dinesh (talk) 16:41, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Dineshswamiin: The problem is that the rise of Hinduism is generally dated to 500 BCE, not 1200 BCE, although Hinduism is generally considered as a synthesis drawing from multiple influences, including the Rig Veda, but also probably elements from the Indus Valley Civilization etc... The sentence in question misleadingly insinuates that Aryans created Hinduism in 1200 CE, not Indians in 500 BCE, which is historically wrong and dismissive of the syncretic role played by the Indians in the formation of their main religion, Hinduism.पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 18:34, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Bibliography

• Cousins, L. S. (2010). "Buddhism". The Penguin Handbook of the World's Living Religions. Penguin. ISBN 9780141955049. Archived from the original on 2 April 2020. Retrieved 27 October 2015.
• Hiltebeitel, Alf (2007). "Hinduism". In Kitagawa, Joseph (ed.). The Religious Traditions of Asia: Religion, History, and Culture (Digital ed.). Routledge. ISBN 9781136875908.
• Larson, Gerald James (2009). "Hinduism". World Religions in America: An Introduction. Westminster John Knox Press. pp. 179–198. ISBN 9781611640472.
• Michaels, Axel (2004). Hinduism: Past and Present. Translated by Harshav, Barbara. Princeton University Press. ISBN 978-0-691-08953-9. Archived from the original on 5 February 2017. Retrieved 5 July 2017.
• Nath, Vijay (2001). "From 'Brahmanism' to 'Hinduism': Negotiating the Myth of the Great Tradition". Social Scientist. 29 (3/4): 19–50. doi:10.2307/3518337. JSTOR 3518337.

Compromise

I think we've had enough discussion; nobody's happy about this, and we've all had already enough reason to be unhappy in this time of COVID. I propose to change "recording the dawning of Hinduism in India" into "marking the dawning of Hinduism in India" per Bruce M. Sullivan (2001), The A to Z of Hinduism, p.9:

The period of the composition of Vedic literature, to about 200 BCE, is a period for which scholars are often hesitant to use the term Hinduism." [...] There is not absolute uniformity among scholars in this use of terminology, again relating to the definition of "Hinduism" with which this introduction began.

I'm not going to write down the full quote here (I've also had a long and full work week), but all of you, read it please; I insist to have it included as a source and explanatory note (I'm willing to write it down fully, in that case), in addition to the sources in place now. Only then, when "recording" is changed into "marking," and the full quote is given, do I agree to keep the present sentence (except for "recording") and it's disputed phrase "dawning." Regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:23, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

• Support - Thanks, JJ. Clever wording, good compromise. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:50, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
• Support - That's a good idea. Joshua, it would be great if we negotiate here too[33]. Thanks! LearnIndology (talk) 20:12, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose The RfC began on the 7th of April; today is the 10th. The discussion has barely begun; we will wait and see how it evolves. I did not start the RfC, but I will now use this time to read up on Hinduism to make sure that what goes into the article (the lead; the ancient history section; and the society section) in the upcoming FAR will be accurate. There is no point in looking for quick fixes during the interim. I have ordered Gavin Flood's (ed.), The Oxford History of Hinduism: Hindu Practice, OUP Oxford, ISBN 978-0-19-105322-1, 2020. I have been looking at Flood's Introduction to Hinduism (1996); it is a little dated. His views have changed somewhat. The two books together would be good. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:13, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

  Btw, it certainly did not "mark." It only recorded, spectacularly recorded. I would not consider changing it to "marked," let alone adding a poor source (with quotations). Please consider the quality of my sources shown here and compare them with the sources you have been offering in response. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:33, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

You are actually right Fowler. We have seen discussions not ending for months, and it has barely been a week. Quick fixing is not the solution, thus I withdraw my support.LearnIndology (talk) 04:00, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

• Comment As I wrote above, if this RfC goes on normally, we will have many more comments from other contributors over a period of several weeks (probably around one more contributor a day in average). I agree that it is a good thing for the discussion to go on, as it will clarify the issue and help us determine the way Hinduism should be presented. It is a complex subject, and this discussion helps us expand our understanding and adjust our sense of certainty everyday. Let's trust Wikipedia's "democracy of knowledge" [34], which should normally put us on the right track. पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 04:53, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Consensus for Pakistan's location: west/northwest

There has been a lot of edits and reverts, back and forth. Can we reach a consensus for the location of Pakistan w.r.t. India? (If it is already done, please link to it.) -- DaxServer (talk) 19:08, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

If there are any sources explicitly refraining from mentioning northwest AND mentioning the physical borders of India, then sure. I haven't personally come across any, myself. At the least northwest could refer to the western border of North India. Foxhound03 (talk) 20:03, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

>>> "There has been a lot of edits and reverts, back and forth." How many have there been? I've noticed just one.

The phrasing was the result of the consensus achieved during the last WP:FAR in 2011. At least half a dozen admins including RegentsPark, Abecedare, and Saravask took part. Editors well-versed in geography took part. I distinctly recall user:AshLin adding "shares land borders with." No one will be looking at the Arabian sea for that border. Baluchistan and Sind (whose north-south spread is smaller than that of Baluchistan) are clearly to the west of India (and were considered to be in the western part of the British Raj; see Imperial Gazetteer of India: "Baluchistan: an oblong stretch of country occupying the extreme western corner of the Indian empire." (here).

Western India, moreover, generally includes Rajasthan and Gujarat, which Sind borders. The combined area of Sind and Baluchistan is 188K sq miles; the combined area of Western Punjab and NWFP, which can be considered to be in the northwest, is 120K sq miles; Kashmir (both Indian-administered and Pakistan-administered) is disputed territory, so we cannot include it in such assessments. In other words, three-fifths of Pakistan shares land borders in the west, only two-fifths in the northwest. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:54, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

West is probably the more accurate though, technically, a bit, a very little bit, of Pakistan is to the north of India. (Am I missing something? Why was the aggressive edit summary necessary here?) --RegentsPark (comment) 21:05, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

True, a wisp of Chitral is in the northern marches of the subcontinent. Simple descriptions are probably best in the lead. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:46, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

• I'd favour "to the west of north India" - NI linked or not. Btw, while you're all here, am I correct in thinking that not a sq inch of Pakistan was ruled by the British until the 1840s? Johnbod (talk) 23:41, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

  Can't say for sure about the square inch part (who knows where the margins were!) but none of the provinces of Pakistan were under the EIC until Sindh came under the EIC's control in the 1840s followed by the Punjab in the next decade. --RegentsPark (comment) 00:47, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks - I thought so. Not at all the impression you get from the "History" section of Pakistan, which jumps straight from the Mughals to the British - History of Pakistan is rather better. Johnbod (talk) 01:02, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

• About the West/North West. I'd prefer leaving it at West because that's simpler but west of North India is okay too if that's where consensus goes.--RegentsPark (comment) 00:52, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

  The consensus version from 2011 is: "Bounded by the Indian Ocean on the south, the Arabian Sea on the southwest, and the Bay of Bengal on the southeast, it shares land borders with Pakistan to the west; China, Nepal, and Bhutan to the north; and Bangladesh and Myanmar to the east."

• If the Arabian Sea is to the southwest, then saying that India shares land borders with Pakistan to the northwest, begs the question, "What lies to India's west?"
• On the other hand, "it shares land borders with Pakistan to the west of north India" is confusing. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:05, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

• "to the west of north India it has a land border with Pakistan" might be better, with a new sentence: "Other borders..." for the rest (the sentence is rather too long). What is an "unshared" border, btw? I find that rather confusing. Johnbod (talk) 13:02, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

  @Johnbod I think borders with water bodies could be interpreted as unshared borders? Still a bit confusing though -- DaxServer (talk) 14:18, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

• The expression, "shares land borders with" is widely used—2,390 times in Google Books (here) and 275 times by academic publishers (here); it is meant in contradistinction to "shares maritime borders with," which India does with Myanmar, Indonesia, Thailand, and Sri Lanka; the latter expression is used 700 times in Google Books (here).
• The Indian Ocean bounds (peninsular) India. The expression "shares land borders with" is also used in contradistinction to being bound by water bodies. The lead of the UK page uses it in this manner. Both expressions are used widely in Google Scholar, (over 2000 times) Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:40, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

• "to the west of north" is widely used, but is a compass direction; "to the west of north India" has no history of use in a published book in the English language (here). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:21, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

• @Johnbod: The article Company rule in India (Origins; expansion) has the answers to your questions. There were nearly a hundred years separating the British conquest of Bengal (1757) and the British conquest of the Punjab region (1846 to 1848). Sind was annexed by the Company between 1839 and 1843.
• The expansion did not proceed apace westward (from Bengal). Oudh, smack in the middle of North-Western Provinces (the old name for a large part of the United Provinces) was annexed in 1856. The Moghul Empire, although formerly formally acknowledged by the British until 1857 as the rulers of Hindustan, was effectively reduced (in extent) to the city of Delhi 1720 onward. The Punjab region fell to the Afghans (Durrani; Abdali) soon after and later in the 18th century to the Sikhs.
• The Pakistan page's history sections are poorly written. I had written large portions of History of Pakistan long ago, but they seem to have been drastically rewritten. Company rule in India seems to have escaped death by a thousand cuts. That is why I am anxious for you and others to help out to whatever extent you can with managing this page: it will give me a chance to improve CRiI, who knows even British Raj, perhaps park them at FAC someday. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:54, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Depends on how you see it - the Company's first territorial foothold here was in Bengal, half of which was a former bit of Pakistan - now Bangladesh. Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI ^{converse | fings wot i hav dun} 13:45, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

A good point, which I did think about, but as this is not the period between 1947 and 1971 when Pakistan had two wings (West and East), it is no longer Pakistan that is the heir that history; it is Bangladesh, to which you have alluded. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:02, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

PS Upon further reflection, I take back some of what I said. The Muslim League, the party that led Pakistan (both East and West) to its independence in 1947 was founded in Dacca in what is now Bangladesh in 1906. Furthermore A. K. Fazlul Huq, the first Prime Minister of Bengal (before 1947) played a major role in the partition and became a cabinet minister in Pakistan after 1947. H. S. Suhrawardy, prime minister of Bengal in the early 1940s became the prime minister of Pakistan in the 1950s. Khwaja Nazimuddin, prime minister of pre-partition Bengal after Suhrawardy became the Governor-General of Pakistan after Jinnah's death, and later prime minister of Pakistan. So the history of Pakistan (formerly West Pakistan) was shaped by the events in East Bengal (later East Pakistan and now Bangladesh) in which the British arrived very early—in the second half of the eighteenth century. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:21, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

History of Pakistan, rightly to my mind, only deals with Bengal in the decades running up to Partition, and until Bangladesh split off. The British "arrived" in Bengal in the mid-17th century, & the first Fort William, India was built in 1696. Johnbod (talk) 02:37, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

The British arrived in East Bengal in the second half of the 18th-century. Fort William—on the banks of the Hooghly—is in West Bengal. It remained a trading post until Plassey (1757). I generally agree about the run-up to the Partition, but how long before 1947 the run-up began is disputed. Pakistan is founded on the ideology of the Two-Nation Theory, the nations being Muslims and Hindus. The earliest champion of TNT was Sir Sayyid Ahmed Khan, ca the 1860s; he lived in Aligarh in Northern India; another was Aga Khan III; he lived in Bombay when he was not racing his horses in England; yet another was the Nawab of Dacca Khwaja Salimullah, who lived in East Bengal. I think it would be legit for Pakistan to include in its history the post-1857 (i.e. post-mutiny) Muslim nationalism on the subcontinent. Except for that, it should focus only on the history of the region that constitutes the geographical extent of Pakistan today. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:17, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Why don't we all just say "west and northwest" and be done with it? When you include PoK - which, as a geopolitical reality, is controlled by Pakistan - Pakistan has many northern bits of the subcontinent. Also, relative to Madhya Pradesh, which is roughly the centre of India, Pakistan is to the NW. Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI ^{converse | fings wot i hav dun} 06:58, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

If four directions suffice for land borders, then there is no reason to use a fifth. (Just as if four colors suffice to draw a map, which they do, there is no reason to use a fifth.) On a globe, we generally determine west and east along lines of latitude, or more precisely by the longitudinal markings on these lines. In pretty much every line of latitude drawn across the border between India and Pakistan, Pakistan is to the west. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:17, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Change source of states of India from library of congress to official Indian government website

Change source of states of India from library of congress to official Indian government website - https://www.india.gov.in/india-glance/states-india Navneetiitv (talk) 03:04, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: Independent secondary or tertiary sources are preferred. Regards! Usedtobecool ☎️ 04:14, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

I agree but states are something which are decided by the government and what is better source than the government's website. Anyways, at least change the source to something which can be accessed in single click e.g. CIA world factbook. Navneetiitv (talk) 16:15, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Can we add "India" in all languages in eighth schedule at the beginning.

According to the Articles 344(1) and 351 of the Indian Constitution, the eighth schedule includes the recognition of 22 languages. So kindly add "India" in all languages in eighth schedule at the beginning. And also few languages follows Devanagari script in writing system hence it might reduce some redundancy (like mentioned at the back of the INR currency notes). Peace -- Iambatman2022 (talk) 08:25, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Can the admins/extended-confirmed users at least respond and give a reply. Peace -- Iambatman2022 (talk) 12:24, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Hello, adding 22 translations to the first sentence would make it unreadable. There is a dedicated article on the subject at Names of India in its official languages. CMD (talk) 12:31, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Then why just Hindi CMD (talk)?? Expecting a reply Iambatman2022 (talk) 10:13, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Only Hindi and English are official languages ​​of India, this is the reason.. ItsSkV08 (talk) 10:31, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 May 2021

Add “Bhartiya Ganrajya” in Devnagri script as “भारतीय गणराज्य” Propriyam! (talk) 03:20, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. See WP:INDICSCRIPTS as well for the related policy. -- DaxServer (talk) 09:12, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 May 2021

Please add "According to the census of 2011 there are 19,569 languages or dialects spoken as mother tongues. The 19,569 went through thorough linguistic scrutiny, edit and rationalization resulting in a more rationalized number. There are 1,369 “rationalized” mother tongues and 1,474 which are “unclassified” and categorized as “other” mother tongues. to the section "Demographics, languages and religion" Garteaga1 (talk) 16:16, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done; for now. It is not an official source; Article doesn't has a section for languages in India. For now, you can edit request to edit Languages of India. Dineshswamiin (talk) 12:31, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 June 2021

i want to change some grammar and economy of india slight change Janak j kurup (talk) 06:59, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. CMD (talk) 07:48, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 June 2021

"mughal empire was not peaceful. It was filled with forced conversions, rapes and killings of hindus. Also there is no such thing as luminous mughal architecture. The mughals broke original hindu temples and built mosques over it. The supreme court has given judgements over this issue various times. Also the workers who made these mughal buildings were maiy native hindus" GauravMaP (talk) 09:33, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: as you have not requested a specific change in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
More importantly, you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 10:27, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Can we include a sentence or two about environment, air pollution, climate change?

I am copying a suggestion made earlier on in the talk page, as it might have gotten lost/entangled in other discussions: The India article does not have a section on environment yet. It does mention air pollution in the lead but not once in the main body. I think that is a major omission. In the lead it says "Among the socio-economic challenges India faces are gender inequality, child malnutrition, and rising levels of air pollution". (in a way, that's a strange listing of pertinent problems in itself; an arbitrary selection of 3 problem areas?) The lead seems to focus itself more on the history with very little space given to contemporary issues; maybe that's on purpose. It's supposed to be a summary of the article. - Furthermore, would it be possible/appropriate that I add a sentence about climate change in India already in the near future, without waiting for a new section on climate from User:Femkemilene? Or actually, it might be best if I suggest the sentence here on the talk page first and not directly in the article? EMsmile (talk) 04:29, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

@EMsmile: Sure, please go ahead and add a short paragraph (four or five sentences) on climate change. You could even add a subsection to the Geography section titled Climate and Environment, and leave your short paragraph in there. Other people—User:Femkemilene, or you, if you have the time—could add more about climate proper later, but at least there will be a placeholder. Thanks very much. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:11, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, Fowler&fowler, that's great. I am happy to suggest something. I am putting it here first for discussion. I went to the article Climate change in India and looked for sentences that are highly relevant and have recent, reliable sources. I know this is too much content, but could you provide guidance on which of these sentences would be relevant for the high level India article? (perhaps some of the sources are not high quality enough for an FA article; better sources might exist in that case): India emits about 3 gigatonnes (Gt) CO_2eq of greenhouse gases each year; about two and a half tons per person, which is half the world average. The country emits 7% of global emissions. Cutting greenhouse gas emissions, and therefore air pollution in India, would have health benefits worth 4 to 5 times the cost, which would be the most cost-effective in the world. Temperatures in India have risen by 0.7 °C (1.3 °F) between 1901 and 2018, thereby changing the climate in India. A 2018 study projects droughts to increase in Northern and North-western India in the near future. Around the end of the century, most parts of India will likely face more and more severe droughts. Temperature rises on the Tibetan Plateau (due to climate change in India) are causing Himalayan glaciers to retreat, threatening the flow rate of the Ganges, Brahmaputra, Yamuna, and other major rivers. The Paris Agreement commitments included a reduction of the carbon intensity per GDP (currently twice the world average) by 33-35% by 2030. The National Energy Plan is in accord with the Paris Agreement target of 2 °C global warming, but if India stopped building coal-fired power stations it would meet the 1.5 °C aspiration. EMsmile (talk) 14:10, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

I tried to select 1-2 sentence for each of these: Greenhouse gas emissions, impacts of climate change on people, some mitigation and policy responses by the government. If we had space, a sentence about climate change adaptation, or another sentence about impacts of climate change could be added as well (but I doubt there is space). EMsmile (talk) 14:19, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

It is very good and its inclusion has my support. If you don't get any other responses in a week's time, please add it to the article. Thanks. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:36, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

• Comments
  • Change "India emits about 3 gigatonnes..." to "India emits only half of the world average of greenhouse gas each year." Keep this simple, because this is an article about India and using names like "carbon dioxide" is too complicated.
  • Change last two sentences starting with "The Paris Agreement commitments..." to India's 2018 National Electricity Plan is in accord with the Paris Agreement target of 2 °C global warming and also proposes options for halting coal power plant construction to further reduce global warming."

I support this. I do want it to be simple enough for people to quickly read and understand. If necessary this could be shorter still. All the sentences are good but we simply are short on space. Thoughts from others? Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:45, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't have much time, so I'm hesitant to ask for a formal FAR (which I've been talking about for nearly a year), but consider it an informal FAR. Once the different sections have been expanded, I'll be happy to reduce the article in a balanced fashion. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:08, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback so far, sounds good. With regards to "how much is too much" and how much space do we allocate to this topic, a related question is this: Would we put the 4 sentences all in one paragraphs at the end of the geography section? An alternative would be to split it up. For example, greenhouse gas emissions doesn't really have much to do with geography. And I've seen in other country articles where issues of political commitments for climate change mitigation are instead included in a section on policies. Should the information on the Paris agreement possibly go into the existing section on "Foreign, economic and strategic relations"? Other articles have mentioned emissions or energy issues in a section on "Infrastructure >> Energy" but the India article doesn't have an infrastructure section yet. Actually in the section on "Economy" it currently says this: the country's coal is a major cause of greenhouse gas emissions by India but the country's renewable energy is competing strongly. I hadn't spotted this sentence before but I think it could be "combined" with the new sentences. Maybe it would be clearer if a section heading called "Energy" is added below "Economy"? Currently below Economy we have: 7.1 Industries, 7.2 Socio-economic challenges. EMsmile (talk) 00:19, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes, Energy below Economy sounds reasonable. Go ahead. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:33, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

OK, I've added a sub-heading for "energy" now below economy and moved three existing sentences to there. Also added links to two important sub-articles. Have not added the new content about greenhouse gas emissions yet. That will come in a subsequent step. So what you think of these changes first. EMsmile (talk) 13:38, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

The sentences read well. Please add the content about greenhouse gas emissions. Looks good thus far. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:54, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

I have now added two sentences about greenhouse gas emissions, and the sentences about the temperature increase, risk of droughts and glaciers melting. EMsmile (talk) 01:47, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

With regards to the suggestions by User:Bluerasberry I have modified the sentence about the greenhouse gas emissions but I do think that the words "carbon dioxide" are not overly complicated and are very familiar to most people. Also your proposed change was not precise: one thing is the emissions per person (lower than average so far; likely to change in future) and the other is the total emissions. For a country like India with a large population it's important to distinguish the two. With regards to the sentence on Paris agreement, I am unclear and haven't added it yet. Your proposed sentence changed the meaning and I am not sure if the reference that was used supports your new sentence: India's 2018 National Electricity Plan is in accord with the Paris Agreement target of 2 °C global warming and also proposes options for halting coal power plant construction to further reduce global warming. Do you have a good reference for this? The sentence and reference that I had were The National Energy Plan is in accord with the Paris Agreement target of 2 °C global warming, but if India stopped building coal-fired power stations it would meet the 1.5 °C aspiration. However, looking at the reference more closely now, I don't think it's a good reliable one (National Geographic article). So if we want to say anything about India, Paris Agreement and coal-fired power plants we need to hunt a bit more for better references. EMsmile (talk) 01:47, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

References

@EMsmile: Regarding emissions - let's keep the part about India having 7% of emissions nationally, but I still prefer to not even give a number of gigatons of CO2 since typical people can only understand such concepts with a comparison. I favor keeping the comparison, but putting such numbers on less general articles. There is no local word for carbon dioxide - hi:कार्बन डाईऑक्साइड for example is just transliterated English. Because we can reasonably expect that this article on India gets translated into 10+ languages in India, I think we should make word choices that we can expect will be comprehensible to the local stakeholder communities. I agree that "carbon dioxide" is a well established term in the Western World, but since this is an article about India, I prefer to be conscious to avoid terms from contemporary science which are challenging to translate. If "greenhouse gas" is not a satisfactory alternative, can you suggest any other phrasing?

Sure, let's cut the bit about the energy plan and coal plants, I agree that the source is thin and this is just a mention there.

Thanks again for the proposal and thanks also for development here. Blue Rasberry (talk) 12:12, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Greenhouse gas includes other gases as well, not just CO2. We talk a lot about "carbon emissions" in the media, "carbon-free economy", "carbon pricing" etc. So carbon dioxide is just as easy or difficult as greenhouse gas, but more precise, isn't it? - I don't think that while editing the English Wikipedia we should have to worry about whether words have a translation into other languages (for example there are tons of English words that have crept into the German language and nobody minds; "computer" and "internet" are two examples). We should indeed write in clear, easy to understand language (e.g. short-ish sentences) to make sure future translators have it easier. Anyway, I am happy to leave the further discussion to people who know the India article better than me - happy to just observe from here on. EMsmile (talk) 23:36, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 June 2021

Demonym=Bharatiya(native) 2402:3A80:13BE:9A01:1D09:B8B2:9541:AF6A (talk) 10:45, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:06, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Bahamani and Deccan sultanates

Hi, I find mention of Vijayanagar empire in the article but not a word on the Bahamani Sultanate or its successor states, the Deccan sultanates that ruled during the same period as Vijayanagar. Is there a reason why this nearly three hundred years history of central India is totally ignored? Thanks.Jonathansammy (talk) 14:12, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Pictures

Something really wrong with the size of the pictures here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:8D80:540:326A:68D1:911D:8306:686A (talk) 12:11, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Which ones?--RegentsPark (comment) 13:03, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Did you mean the images of the president and prime minister? Someone added those to the article without thinking about the formatting. Images, on this article, have been decided through a consensus process so (to the editor who added them) please seek consensus before adding any image. --RegentsPark (comment) 13:08, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Article has mass accessibility problems because of fixed images sizes and mass sandwich of text all over. Been mentioned over and over again. Not FA level accessibility......article used as example of what not to do at MOS talks..--Moxy- 12:55, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 June 2021

the biggest democracy in the world with rich cultural and social heritage Sachin. .dahiyaz (talk) 17:12, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:23, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 June 2021

Change population 42.107.224.125 (talk) 10:50, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Dineshswamiin (talk) 10:53, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 June 2021

114.31.156.13 (talk) 12:31, 28 June 2021 (UTC) Map is not real you have wrong map jammu and kashmir is part of India.

 Not done Unclear which map you are referring to, from what I can see, all the maps correctly show the Indian regions of Jammu and Kashmir. --RegentsPark (comment) 13:02, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 June 2021

Official Language:- English, Hindi, Bengali; 45.64.224.175 (talk) 16:01, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: -- DaxServer (talk) 16:10, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 June 2021

India (Hindi: Bhārat), officially the Republic of India (Hindi: Bhārat Gaṇarājya),[23] is a country in South Asia. It is the second-most populous country, the seventh-largest country by land area, and the most populous democracy in the world. Bounded by the Indian Ocean on the south, the Arabian Sea on the southwest, and the Bay of Bengal on the southeast, it shares land borders with Pakistan and Afghanistan to the west;[f] China, Nepal, and Bhutan to the north; and Bangladesh and Myanmar to the east. In the Indian Ocean, India is in the vicinity of Sri Lanka and the Maldives; its Andaman and Nicobar Islands share a maritime border with Thailand, Myanmar and Indonesia. Mehulbansal000111 (talk) 01:03, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

To editor Mehulbansal000111:  Not done: please see the "f" cite note that explains that the addition of Afghanistan on the western border is disputed. Thank you for your input! P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 02:37, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 July 2021

Largest city: Mumbai (Population)

                        Delhi (Area) 2409:4042:78D:34C3:397D:22BB:A08F:4892 (talk) 14:56, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:07, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Cuisines of India: Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 July 2021

Need to remove multiple images from cuisine and only add the vegetarian thali picture. The section is meant to be read and per Wikipedia:Unnecessary images the 4x3 stack of images in the Cuisine section detracts the user from reading the Wikipedia article. The wikipedia page is encyclopedic and must have the barest minimum of images. The Cuisines section seems to gyrate left and right in wrapping around the images which is distracting. Normally we would except a block of text. Not to mention the amount of meat dishes is disrespectful in depicting the Indian cuisine which is traditionally vegetarian. The majority of people in India are vegetarian. The additional video of a person making naan is also detracting from reading the cuisine section. HaryanaMayil (talk) 01:14, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. Usedtobecool ☎️ 02:34, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Please I need some consensus in restoring Indian cuisine section's pictures back to the way it was on 22 August 2019. As you can see in the diffs and the history https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=India&offset=20190823115221%7C912122495&action=history, a certain user named Fowler&fowler supplemented the precedent Northern and Western Indian Home Cooked Lunch and Southern Indian Thali Dinner.jpg picture with a stack of pictures and videos that seemed fulsome and unnecessary in my opinion. It was already a well represented section. The jpg picture has been representing the Cuisine section since the article India was created: proof = 22 August 2019 - diff - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=India&oldid=912048766

Then from August 23 2019 onward some rearrangements bought in pictures that including a tandoor chef, images of mutton, and pork and chicken! It occurred somewhere around August 25 2019 - diff: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=India&oldid=912369694. This was stacked in a disconcerting 3 x 2 multi-image frame that completely removed the charm of Indian cuisine which is vegetarian. Indians take pride in their vegetarian tradition as can be see here Vegetarianism. The historical legacy has been carried on to this day with Meat Consumption per capita data from OECD showing India is the country that consumes the least kilograms of meat as an aggregation of poultry and beef with respect to its population. External link - https://data.oecd.org/agroutput/meat-consumption.htm India can't survive if it reverts to meat eating and is unsustainable. It is one of the largest countries where an average person only consumes 0.6 kg of meat per year compared to 26 kg in US. Furthermore simply look at the reality in the ground. The degree to which politicians can win elections in India depend on whether they are vegetarian. This includes the diet of Prime Minister Public image of Narendra Modi, Arvind Kejriwal, and Rahul Gandhi - external link - https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2018/09/04/bjp-rahul-non-vegetarian-soup-kailash-mansarovar-yatra.html. These people are the leading politicians in India right now. So please the ground reality in India is that most of the restaurants are advertised with billboards saying its vegetarian. Eating meat can loose elections and is seen as detrimental to political party status. So think about what all the average poor people eat in India? I am talking about people on the scale of millions not thousands. The people who vet the politician's diet before voting is on the scale of millions including 230 million and 120 million people for Modi and Gandhi respectively. The diet determines the votes.

I want Western Indian Home Cooked Lunch and Southern Indian Thali Dinner.jpg to be back in the cuisine section as the main pictures to represent Indian cuisine because it is the best representation of what the majority of Indian people eat any day showing a unique dimension of the North and South vegetarian diets. The other pictures featuring meat dishes should be deleted and is a trifling mistake in accurately representing Indian cuisine.HaryanaMayil (talk) 22:14, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

@Fowler&fowler: since he is mentioned above. HaryanaMayil, we're not managing India's electoral system here. Fowler, could you take a look and see if the images are the consensus ones? --RegentsPark (comment) 00:15, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

So far the images of Hyderabadi Chicken Biryani.jpg, Mutton Curry (Mansha Tarkari) Rotated.jpg, Vindalho.jpg, Assamese Thali.jpg all should be removed. If the April 22 2019 version is better so be it, or the ones that were replaced can be replaced by Sadhya DSW.jpg, Indian Spices.jpg etc that were used previously used for the cuisine section back in history. Also on 2 July 2021, user ItsSkV08 agreed with me on how the cuisine images are too many. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=India&oldid=1031512742 HaryanaMayil (talk) 01:38, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Most agree the articles pictures cause problems for many readers.....however moving forward with fixing the accessibility problems has its own problems surrounding it.--Moxy- 01:57, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

@RegentsPark I think he has quit the article. He's not reverted even poor edits. I recently archived a note from him to everyone who he hopes will take over. I'll try to find the diff if you missed it. It's not that he's not edited since the note, but it is not as it used to be. Usedtobecool ☎️ 02:36, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

There were couple of discussions in the archives that I could find. Talk:India/Archive 44#New Images - Cuisine (~ January 2019) and Talk:India/Archive 38#Unilaterally added "Cuisine Section" (2013). Were there others? -- DaxServer (talk) 09:09, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

@RegentsPark: Yes, they are from the consensus version of the article prepared over two months for its second WP:TFA appearance for Gandhi's 150th birth anniversary on October 2, 2019. Over a dozen seasoned editors and admins participated in the rewrite. Many images were discussed, but at some point we all became tired, and the others watched carefully while I did the rewrite. It was all in the open in WP's best traditions. So to summarize: the text was written first, and only then, we (mindful of Moxy's admonitions) added images that illustrated the descriptive prose of the text. Of course, these images will not be to everyone's liking. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:27, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks Fowler, Usedtobecool and DaxServer. @HaryanaMayil:, we can't remove meat dishes merely because you don't like to see them. Indian cuisine, like its people, is vast and varied and there are plenty of meat eating cultures. Mughlai food, food from places like Kerala, Goa, Tamil Nadu the North East, the Punjab, Lucknow, Bengal etc., are known for their meat and fish dishes. Entire cultures (Muslims, Sikhs, Christians, non-Brahmin Hindus, Parsis, atheists, agnostics, etc.) have their own important meat or fish dish traditions. We can't wish away all this - India is just not a country with a monolithic culture. --RegentsPark (comment) 13:53, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree cuisine is a contentious topic for India, because it is governed by a different set of regions with their own languages unlike a country like China that is unified in aspect to its religion. However, I disagree that that India is known for its meat dishes. The statistics prove that India subsists on 0.6 kg of meat per year. The meat dishes that representing India right now are from select regions that doesn't paint the true picture of Indian cuisine. Honestly the politics, the people, the stats, the history prove it. Any chance we can reduce the amount of dishes that are in the multi-images from 3x2 to lets say 2X1 and reduce its size?HaryanaMayil (talk) 16:31, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

@HaryanaMayil: 70% of Hindus are not vegetarians. They may not eat a lot of meat, but they do eat it. There are dozens of meat dishes for which India is known the world over, much more so than it is for its vegetarian dishes. The tandoor, the tandoori chicken, butter chicken, biryani, pillau, naan, rogan josh, ... are better known than the items in the South Indian platter to which you are requesting we limit ourselves. Please read the text of the article, instead of making remarks after a look at the pictures. Please also read WP:Main article fixation. And I don't mean this patronizingly. In other words, if you have an interest in this topic, please consider contributing to the many articles on the Cuisine of India. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:48, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Also, your remark, "I want Western Indian Home Cooked Lunch and Southern Indian Thali Dinner.jpg to be back in the cuisine section as the main pictures to represent Indian cuisine because it is the best representation of what the majority of Indian people eat any day showing a unique dimension of the North and South vegetarian diets." has many issues. Most Indians are not wealthy enough to have home-cooked meals delivered by the Bombay Dabba-wallahs to their office around lunchtime, nor for that matter can they afford the elaborate South Indian platter of your mention. If a majority is what you want, I am happy to propose dal roti (lentils and bread) and rajma chawal (kidney beans and rice), or something similar, in the images. That is what is served in the mid-day meals in India's government schools, meals which are the high point of the day for many undernutritioned children in India. In fact, here are two: File:The Children being served the food under the Mid-day Meal Scheme at a primary school, Wokha district in Nagaland.jpg and File:Children eating kheer and puri, Chambal, India.jpg, which can be easily swapped with the Dabbawallahs or South Indian restaurant's offerings. The latter was in this article for years. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:19, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

PS It should be noted that just as the Buddha in early Buddhist iconography was depicted by empty space (filled with a powerful presence), so too food may be depicted by the things around it: the occasion, the expectation, and the company, ... In that spirit, a picture worthy of consideration here (and a nod to the Buddha, India's first historical figure), is: File:47 Raika School - eating together (3384824242).jpg, of Dalit children awaiting their school lunch, proposed by @Johnbod:. It is meant for the education section, where I will add it upon conclusion of this discussion, but it is worthy of inclusion here instead should there be a consensus. Incidentally, the writing in white chalk on the blackboard behind hails India's great Dalit (meaning "the broken," the dispossessed, the untouchables) leader B. R. Ambedkar. That Dalit children, especially Dalit girls, are going to school now, and en mass, is one of Independent India's signal achievements. Completing the circle of meanings is the fact that Ambedkar and thousands of his Dalit followers converted to Buddhism. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:42, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

PPS Some impressionistic thoughts from my long experience on this page might be in order: Typically (and by this I mean a large proportion of) editors will examine the images much more carefully than they will the text. Some editors might be chagrined that the images display a backward, rural, India—the dairy farmer hand-milking his cow being a frequent sore point; some object to the old fashioned attire, and have proposed that wealthy schoolgirls in short skirts are more appropriate to a surging, shining, India than women in an adult literacy class in firmly wrapped South Indian-style saris; some have objected that the cuisine section favors Muslim or British inspired food. But then consider the Vedic Cookbook that I read a long time ago. Hearkening to a time before the Indo-Aryan incursions into South India, it had no black pepper, cinnamon, clove, ginger ... and certainly also to a time before the Columbian exchange, it had no tomato, potato, chili peppers, bell peppers, in other words, most ingredients that are a hallmark of Indian food today were absent. What is the cut off date for what constitutes authentic Indian food? Obviously, there is not one. All we can do is to consider the scholarly sources. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:15, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Hello, I am sorry for my late response. Yes please remove the meat dishes because as you pointed out the Dalit students themselves eat rice and kidney beans for their meals. Also lets not just demean these students in not affording the South Indian platter. Then what do you think they eat in the morning? Cheerios? They eat dosa with the some sort of side dish similar to File:South Indian Thali Cropped.jpg or for North India, some sort of chapathi with side dishes that are all vegetarian similar to File:Tiffin wallah lunch.jpg. Adding these two images should be enough. The other images are extraneous and only adds contention because it represents the specific regions of Goa and Assam that is resorting to favoritism. Also I refute your point that Indians do still eat meat. They can't afford meat as you pointed out for the Dalit students. The cut-off point of what constitutes Indian cuisine should be based on what the majority of the people ate in history which is simply vegetarian food. From Vedic times all they ate was vegetarian food. The majority of times they ate vegetables outnumber the years Mughals came and started to introduce meat. But even then, the majority of people were Hindus vegetarians. Even the Mughals had to eat vegetables.

Also what if you added a beef vindaloo.jpg or some other cow dish, how would the Indians react? It still is served in India, but does the majority of the people eat it? No. Adding that pork and chicken dish is just provocative honestly and instead of being contentious in this debate lets just use common sense and completely get away with the cuisine images all together and follow what other articles in the other languages did in the cuisine section which is File:Indian curry with dosa.jpg orFile:Spices in an Indian market.jpg or the old File:Indian Spices.jpg. These images universally represent Indian cuisine as everyone is aware of bread with curry or spices make the curry. So please consider this point.HaryanaMayil (talk) 13:31, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Well I guess I have to edit it myself once I get authority confirm status.HaryanaMayil (talk) 11:44, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Can we insert a template in the article for the list of largest cities?

I would like to insert a template in the Demographics section for largest cities in India.

Dinesh | Talk 11:05, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Not an India-specific issue, but there are discussions regarding these templates at the moment, as there are issues with their construction. See Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2021 June 20 for example. CMD (talk) 11:42, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

@Chipmunkdavis: I want to change format for states and union territories. See: Canada, Philippines and Germany. Dinesh | Talk 04:06, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

What do you mean? The Philippines and Germany have similar tables and images, but Canada currently does not have any table to match its image. Which format are you advocating, and why? This article currently has a slight middle ground in using a list matched with an image. CMD (talk) 04:15, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

I'll make a table in sandbox. Then I'll mention you again when it will be ready. Thanks! Dinesh | Talk 11:50, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

A non image version like Canada would be best.....for 2 reasons ....first the small images dont conform to basic readable size ...secondly huge image problems here with 16 different oversized settings ...no need to now have super small images aswell..Moxy- 12:07, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't think a table like this is attractive. There was a previous rfc on this. Catchpoke (talk) 22:47, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Changing the driving side from left to right which is officially in india and correct the distorted indian map

Plz allow me to change the designation of driving side and remove distorted image of india showing its sovereign regions in light green and saying they are different Flashthefastest (talk) 19:30, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Allow me to change the recommendation Flashthefastest (talk) 19:30, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone will add them for you. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:40, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

The map is not "distorted", it merely shows clearly the areas claimed by India outside Indian control. Also, India indeed drives on the left, unless everyone here is breaking the law just to fool me. Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI ^{converse | fings wot i hav dun} 18:15, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Distorted Indian Map

The light green region showing J&K and Ladakh as different is a gross violation of sovereign regions of india which are fully fledged part of republic of india Flashthefastest (talk) 19:32, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done Light Green part is occupied by Pakistan and China; ruled by Pakistan and China. Dinesh | Talk 04:00, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Image over-use

I've removed a lot of images from the page. I'm not familiar with the subject matter, so if I have removed something that is crucial for contextualising content, restore it, but something else will have to go. I visited this page on a mobile view and it borders on completely broken—unreadable, with images overlapping text, extending beyond acceptable boundaries. As a featured article, strict MOS adherence is required: it violates MOS:SANDWICH quite egregiously, in some of the worst states I've ever seen. — ImaginesTigers (talk∙contribs) 17:36, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for trying .....but accessibility is ignored here.--Moxy- 21:52, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

The change has been reverted. If the overuse of images was obviously breaking the mobile view, I would have re-reverted; but on both iOS and Android and both web and mobile-app the article looks fine with all the images. What platform are you seeing display issues on? User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 21:55, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Moxy and 力: I've had a look. For me the page is fine on mobile Chrome (Android), but rendering very poorly on the default browser on my Samsung phone (not Chrome—Samsung's own browser). Even if it’s functional elsewhere, it looks hideous and violates the MOS. None of these images are so necessary that the article should look like this. We can talk about it, but what it comes down to is, are these images so necessary that we should make the article hideous, and the text more difficult to read, to keep them? I think the answer is straightforward no, and the question should turn to which images are necessary for context and which are not. I'm happy to make a list. — ImaginesTigers (talk∙contribs) 22:01, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

We use this format as an example of what not to do.--Moxy- 22:04, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm not too worried about image over-use; I would expect China, India, and United States to be the three articles with the most images of any article on the project. There does seem to be some SANDWICH going on with the "India under British East India Company rule" image section for my web view; perhaps the nine historical-political maps should be moved to a gallery at the end of the History section? User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 22:05, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

I keep wondering about the same @力:. I've certainly checked on my iPhone, in both Wikipedia the mobile view and desktop view. Nothing seems to be the matter. The images are more focused than on my actual desktop. It is the same people who now and then decide to snipe here, their arguments amounting to nothing more than I Don't Like It. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:08, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

I've never edited this page before today, so surely it is not me you are talking to. — ImaginesTigers (talk∙contribs) 22:26, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

BS..comes up all the time by many different editors.....moreWP:ICANTHEARYOU. This is the only major country article that does not follow the basics at Wp:gallery MOS:SANDWICH MOS:IMAGESIZE MOS:ACCIM WP:UNDUE. Keeps comming up....fix it so the article is readable by all. Keeps comming up....FA review ?--Moxy- 22:18, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict × 3) I really don't agree that the image use here is appropriate. There are plenty of other articles the images can be spread across, and there are plenty of superior resources users can use to find specific images. Images should support text but not supersede it; the images are overwhelming compared to the text and makes the page look so bloated. This came up when the article was given notice by FAR last November, almost all of which has gone unaddressed. Think it’s probably time to open FAR for the article. Femkemilene, given that you gave notice, would you agree with me commencing those proceedings (8 months later)? — ImaginesTigers (talk∙contribs) 22:23, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

If Fowler&fowler continues to act as page owner and is unwilling to fix the image WP:SANDWICH issue, there is no choice other than a FA review. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 22:28, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

I didn't know there were was an ownership issue with this page—that is sad. But the sandwich issue isn't even one of the primary extant issues raised by the notice given, so FAR is the next port of call. If there are ownership issues, that doesn't complicate things. Obviously the absolute goal for FAR is to retain articles' status—there is no rush. But if there's a refusal to meet what is decided by consensus as the right steps then it will make the review quick, and the vote likewise. — ImaginesTigers (talk∙contribs) 22:34, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

And how will the Keystone Kops with no knowledge of India be proceeding? As for images, that is an easy fix. It can be changed to the gallery format as in my last FAR Political history of Mysore and Coorg etc Art FAs are chock full of galleries. Someone has already changed a few on this page to galleries. All can be so converted. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:41, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

It doesn't take a subject-specific savant to get an article to the FA criteria, so I'm not going to overstate the significance of any one editor. The problems here aren't content—it’s volume and presentation. Delisting is a natural event for many articles—if this one meets that fate, I will be sad, but I'm confident others will step up to the plate. Failing that, it'll be delisted. That's pretty much it. As for galleries, it could work. I personally think the volume of images is too much, but I could be wrong, so I'd like someone from FAC to give some input on that. Maybe buidhe? They are really prolific FAC image reviewers. — ImaginesTigers (talk∙contribs) 23:05, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

I would agree that the article has too many images. Besides the above mentioned issues with sandwiching, MOS and accessibility for all readers, too many images also displace text and inflate the size of the article. Galleries do avoid the sandwiching problem, but they also have a cost: they break up the text and may be used to shoehorn in images of limited encyclopedic relevance. It needs careful thinking how many images actually improve a broad article like this one versus how many would be better off placed on articles with a narrower scope. (t · c) buidhe 23:47, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

WP:COUNTRY "Articles may be best modeled on the layout of an existing article of appropriate structure and topic (See: Canada, Japan and Rwanda.)" Overall we avoid random galleries in these articles as per Wikipedia:Summary style because of WP:UNDUE "Gallery images must collectively add to the reader's understanding of the subject without causing unbalance to an article or section within an article ".....that said if accessible its better then before and not an FA concern.Moxy- 00:14, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

• I don't see the issue here. Apparently, the article renders fine on most browsers, the samsung one being an exception. We can't tailor the article to every browser and, for a country with India's rich diversity, I'd rather see an image filled page rather than a bland mostly text only version. --RegentsPark (comment) 00:20, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Purpose ="Wikipedia's purpose is to benefit readers by acting as a widely accessible and free encyclopedia; --Moxy- 00:27, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

@RegentsPark: Hi! Nobody's advocating to remove every single image; there are lots of really great images here, and it'll be hard to narrow down which ones have immediate relevancy and which ones can go elsewhere. Just bring some of their sizes down and keep the focus on the text (all 11,000 words of it, which needs to come down). — ImaginesTigers (talk∙contribs) 01:17, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

• Really, Imagines Tiger, it doesn't? Why don't you try and allow me to pick apart your every sentence? I guarantee, every sentence it will be. In the process, I will also take down Canada, Japan, and what have you that have copied from this, WP's oldest country FA, soon to be 17. I mean it is getting to be ridiculous. You guys know nothing about India, but hold yourself up guardians of images. Where were you during the second TFA of October 2, 2019, when parts of the article were rewritten and these images were added over the preceding two months watched by dozens of seasoned editors and admins, and finally copy edited by Two Fingered Typist, the dean of WP Guild of Copy Editors? In hypnagogic hallucinations, deep sleep, or hypnopompic hallunications? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:33, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

  Speaking of FAC regulars and FA authors, the Visual art subsection of the Culture section was written by Johnbod a few months ago. It has six images, including five in one horizontal gallery. Perhaps the snipers should take those out and start an argument with him. He has a much longer fuse than mine. All the best, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:55, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Firstly, I've no idea what you're responding to above; I'm addressing issues raised during the FAR notice, and do not intend to "pick apart [your] every sentence". Work being required on this article isn't a personal attack, although you may interpret them that way because of the frequency with which you hurl them at other editors. Please by all means go to some of my work on Wikipedia and rewrite sentences, if you think it improves them. That is what Wikipedia is about. I'm not going to indulge the dramatic tantrums. Wikipedia does not offer extra permissions for years of service. Along those lines, "where were you during the second TFA of October 2, 2019"—F&f, it wasn't a war; the beaches of Mainspace were not stormed. The dramatics, and your "style" of speaking to other editors, is inappropriate, unnecessary, and not collegial. It’s sad that you think it’s okay to talk to people like this, especially coming from an academic and an experienced editor... it’s so disappointing. For now, I'm going to disengage with you, because you don't seem capable of being calm, collegial, or civil.

I'll wait to see what Femke feels about beginning the FAR. I don't think any of the issues are insurmountable, but there's an URFA backlog to clear, and it’s been months since there was any movement. Happy to lay them out as I see them for her, and other interested URFA participants. — ImaginesTigers (talk∙contribs) 01:17, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Just from a point-of-view from a professional programmer (not commenting on which images should be considered), wouldn't it be a problem with rendering of Wikipedia on the Samsung browser? Could there be a styling (CSS/JS) issues that might only come up on Samsung browsers when the images are laid out exactly what it is right now in this article? -- DaxServer (talk) 09:20, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

I've been talking about an FAR longer than anyone else. The last FAR was proposed by me. I am certainly not asking that you disengage, only that you disengage in fruitless pursuits. There are many sections that need work. I've been asking editors for the last six months to help out, but mostly to little avail. When editors do respond constructively, such as EMSmiles has on climate change, I respond with uniform encouragement. Writing about India is not for the faint-hearted, and any sincere attempt should be encouraged. There are several sections @ImaginesTigers:, that are in great need for improvement. One such is India#Demographics,_languages,_and_religion section; another is India#Socio-economic_challenges. How would you like to improve them? But what is the good of waving rules and regulations at seasoned India-hands such as RegentsPark or I? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:25, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

I meant the above sincerely, not as a taunt. Other sections that desperately need improvement are: India#Architecture_and_literature, India#Performing_arts_and_media, India#Society. Would any of you, @力:, @Moxy:, @Buidhe: and @ImaginesTigers: like to help out. Johnbod has already helped with Visual art; Rjensen on Education; EMSmiles (as stated on Climate Change). There are four of you; I'm sure you could do it. You can ask me any questions you might have. Again, I mean this sincerely. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:44, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

There is a productive discussion that could be had here. I take it on good faith that some users see issues in the mobile interface, the mobile ecosystem is diverse. Similarly, it should be noted that the images on this article have been the subject of discussion for many years. (I remember there used to be a system where the image that appeared was actually selected from a pool each time the page was loaded, which was a novel idea.)

Perhaps this discussion could refocus on the purpose of the images, which may be more useful that simply noting there are too many. Image selection on any country article is difficult, more so for a country with a billion people. They face what is essentially a more extreme version of the Summary style considerations for text (this article's slow growth over time to what is now 71kB prose demonstrates the difficulty there as well).

With summary style in mind, part of the issue here may be a reliance on this article, as sub-articles are not as well developed. Take the aforementioned art gallery, my impression was that some thought was put into the selection of images, yet none of the images deemed important enough to summarise at this high level appear on Indian art (although there is a lower quality version of File:MET DT5237 (cropped).jpg). Demographics of India doesn't have any of the images included in the Demographics, languages, and religion section here. The 1901 maps and the broad generic South Asian language map seem like some of the most obvious cuts for this article, and such cuts are easier if their associated information is close by within the article ecosystem.

There may also be smaller changes that could help, which common ground might be found for. For example, many pictures in this article are scaled to be larger, which contributes to sandwiching and potential display distortions. This scaling could probably be removed in some cases, for example I don't see what value a 20% larger tiger image brings to the reader. CMD (talk) 03:05, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

@Fowler&fowler: I will refrain for now. There are many other editors more experienced with image selection and layout than I am. Regarding the prose, I think the article could actually be 500-1000 words longer, but consensus and the WP:FA guidelines appear to be against me. The society and economic sections, I may make an attempt at improving in 2-3 weeks if nobody else does first. (I really do know nothing about Bollywood, and without a significant wordcount expansion I doubt I can improve the demographics section). User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 03:15, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

A few things. The first, to Fowler&fowler, in response to "what is the good of waving rules and regulations at seasoned India-hands such as RegentsPark or I?" Well, simply put, the rules are going to be what determines if the article meets the Featured Article criteria. You are free to continue overseeing the article without the star in the top right of the page, should you not heed advice on Wikipedia's policies.

Secondly, I think that CMD observation regarding the neglect of spin-off articles is a good one. It’s almost certainly contributing to the bloat. Some sections are neglected while others are vastly over-represented. While many are asking what must be added for comprehensiveness, the reality is that the article is too big and things are going to have to be removed to facilitate that. Wikipedia recommends that articles of over 100,000 bytes "should almost certainly be divided". This article is three times that—at 300,000 bytes. At FAR, we're going to have to determine how best to approach summary style. This isn't just adherence for the sake of it. There are technical limitations and accessibility issues for these guidelines, regardless of whether any one editor is experiencing them. The article's size must come down, quite dramatically. Removing some images is an easy fix for removing bytes but it doesn't work alone. For this conversation to be focused, it has to have a formatted FAR—that is, some editors focused on bringing up some sections in size, bringing down others, removing unnecessary images. I'd like to have our experts on hand for those discussions. I'd also like for our experts to be friendly and approachable, with policy and content discussions occurring with hands in hands rather than fists in faces. — ImaginesTigers (talk∙contribs) 20:21, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

The article-size guidance does not count the space used by references, just prose. I measure a prose size of about 85KB for the article, which is still large, but below 100KB and reasonable for an article of this scope. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 21:46, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

just noting I've seen the discussion, and want to plan the FAR such that the star will be saved. I might work on the economy section before, which needs updating and visually slightly less attention to agriculture. Back from wiki break on 20th. FemkeMilene (talk) 21:43, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 July 2021

Kulke and rothermund sources aren't authentic :A HISTORY OF INDIA written by Kulkeand rothermund moisture basic historical texts Caste didn't come into existence before the mug hall era. Untouchability can be only trace back to eighteenth century

Women were still given higher class jobs during the gupta era

Manuscript isn't authentic as it is only considered as an opinion or ideas of a brahma not an actual text Arjuna randi (talk) 12:24, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Dinesh | Talk 12:51, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Distortion of Indian history

Caste isn't a part of Hinduism It didn't exist until the mug half era. This article is anti Indian. Arjuna randi (talk) 12:26, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: If you want to change something, please provide Reliable sources. Dinesh | Talk 12:47, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Sports Section

It has been observed by many people that there's no sports section here. Requesting to add it in a concise way including all major sports and popular cultural indigenous sports, and India's major achievements. Footy2000 (talk) 19:42, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

There is a sports section, titled "Sports and recreation", with 4 paragraphs of content. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 21:47, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

It deserves its own section. The indigenous sports do come under culture but the others don't, so no point in including under culture section which is already so big. Footy2000 (talk) 04:44, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Making it its own section would put it on the same level as history or economy, I don't think that would be due. Other countries use the same structure of sports under culture. FemkeMilene (talk) 09:52, 9 July 2021 (UTC)