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Unreliable source and falsification of sources by User:Jrkso

User:Jrkso is inserting wrong information in the article Afghanistan. And to make his edits look "sourced", he is selectively quoting and linking unrelated sources. For example, he stubbornly sticks to the fabricated claim that in an alleged letter (which seems to be completely unknown to real scholars), Alexander called the inhabitants of modern Afghanistan "lions". To mislead the readers, he links this fabricated nonsese to another quote which has absolutely NOTHING to do with it. From that source, he selectively picks a few words which suite him, totally falsifying the message. Here is the original quote from the book:

• The importance of this particular route has always been minimal because of the harsh conditions along the way. Alexander the Great followed this rout in the opposite direction, thereby almost losing his life and his army. (The Afghans; Vogelsang, Willem; 2002; p. 11)

It is very obvious that the author is talking about the harsh geographic conditions, i.e. the hot and rough desert terrain south of the Hindu Kush in which Alexander and his army almost died on his way back to Iran from India (they had no water in the desert of Makran and Gedrosia). It is mentioned in the article Alexander the Great in the section Alexander_the_great#Indian_campaign. Jrkso, on the other hand, selectively picks the last part of the information, and turns it into this:

• Almost losing his life and his army, Alexander is believed to have described in a letter to his mother the inhabitants of what is now Afghanistan as lion-like brave people: "I am involved in the land of a 'Leonine' (lion-like) and brave people, where every foot of the ground is like a wall of steel, confronting my soldier. You have brought only one son into the world, but everyone in this land can be called an Alexander." —Interpretation of Alexander's words by contemporary writer, Abdul Sabahuddin

He falsifies the source, making it look like "lion-like Afghans almost killed Alexander and his army".

Despite being asked to provide reliable sources or prove that the author of that one book is a reliable expert, he has constantly rejected or fails to provide any information regarding the author Abdul Sabahuddin. Who is this guy?! What are his sources for this alleged letter?! Is this guy a scholar and expert on Afghanistan's history?! Does he know Greek and is he an expert on Greek history or language?! And why is Jrkso stubbornly claiming that this man is a reliable source, although the fabricated nonsense regarding that alleged letter cannot be found in any scholarly source?! And to make it worse: he believes that "because he is right", it is my job and that of the Wikipedia community to prove him wrong. In other words: it does not matter what sources he uses. If I have a problem with it, I have to prove it wrong. I did try to google the author and the message, but I was not able to find anything. The author does not have any other books, his name is not registered in any university, and the claim is not supported by any scholarly work. Yet, Jrkso still persists that he is right and all others are wrong. Now, he has even ordered me to write an email to the publishing house that published that book and ask them for information on the author. I refused, and now he is calling me "lazy", still persisting on his POV. Some admin help is needed. I have tagged the article, and I am once again asking Jrkso to provide RELIABLE; SCHOLARLY sources for this obvious nonsense. If there is such a mysterious letter, then it should be no problem to find 2 or 3 other sources. Tajik (talk) 11:24, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Please follow the instructions at the top of the page regarding clear, full citations of the sources in question. If the source for the second statement is "Abdul Sabahuddin. [unknown text]. [unknown location:] [unknown publisher,] [unknown date,] [unknown location within text.]" Then the Abdul Sabahuddin text is unreliable as a source is not specified. Fifelfoo (talk) 11:53, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

It's palpable nonsense. There are no letters written by Alexander surviving, of course. Misrepresenting sources is a blockable offence, which could be taken to WP:ANI. Paul B (talk) 11:58, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Thank you! It'S not just about the author, it's the nonsense propagated by that no-name author. I am removing it from the article. Tajik (talk) 12:06, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

All we have from Alexander is a letter to the people of Chios engraved on a stone. In fact, Alexander is noteworthy for the lack of contemporary written evidence. There are some well known forged documents, which perhaps the author is claiming to be genuine. Dougweller (talk) 12:39, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

User:Tajik's behaviour is very aggressive and annoying. He needs to chill out, be civil, and stop lying about me. The Alexander letter info was there in the article for months and when Tajik attempted to remove it the other day I reverted his edit. So now he's angry and is attacking me. He's asking me to show him the original letter written by Alexander in 330 BC. I believe this is a reliable source. Everything in the book is backed by these so many top scholars-professors-historians-contributors, the author has listed the sources in the references list. I picked one of these and you can read for yourself about what happened between Alexander and the local tribes in the Afghan area. It's between pages 68 to 88. So therefore, I didn't falsify anything. On a separate issue, Tajik is trying to falsify information at the Ethnic groups in Afghanistan. He's trying to put the result of an opinion poll about the security situation in Afghanistan as a census report. This is clearly misleading and he knows it too.--Jrkso (talk) 13:33, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Jrkso, can you read the top of the page where it says, "A full citation of the source in question. For example Strickland, D.S. and Worth, B.S. (1980) "Books for the children" Early Childhood Education Journal 8 (2): 58--60."? We appreciate citations here. Abdul Sabbahudin, History of Afghanistan, New Delhi-2: N.K. Singh / Global Vision Publishing House, 2008. is not a reliable source. The bibliographic information page says, "Responsibility…for this title is entirely that of the author." which is the publisher disclaiming any review over the work. Fifelfoo (talk) 13:45, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Fifelfoo, all books come with the same or similar "Responsibility…for this title is entirely that of the author." mentionings. And you forgot to explain what makes Abdul Sabbahudin, History of Afghanistan, New Delhi-2: N.K. Singh / Global Vision Publishing House, 2008. an unreliable source.--Jrkso (talk) 13:52, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

SELF makes it unreliable as the publisher takes no responsibility for the work.

Hill, Howard and Landsbury, Industrial relations: an Australian introduction Melbourne: Longman Cheshire, 1982 doesn't; nor does Pitt and Smith (eds), The Computer Revolution in public administration: the impact of information technology on government Brighton: Wheatsheaf, 1984; nor does Anderson and Zinsser, A history of their own: women in Europe from prehistory for the present Volume I, Harmondsworth: Penguin, 1988. Is is very unusual for publishers to disclaim responsibility for the works they publish. So much so that this is the first instance I have ever seen of a non-vanity press disclaiming responsibility for a work they publish. Fifelfoo (talk) 14:03, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't the have time to list million books here which all give these same warnings about not taking any responsibility, etc. You know there are many but believe what you want. Here is one I quickly found. What you have to say about this?--Jrkso (talk) 14:20, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

You linked to a report whose disclaimer states that the publisher's opinion is not the author's opinion. 1) Reports aren't books. 2) The Strategic Studies Institute didn't disclaim the factual content of the work, and remains responsible, in particular the report says, "Smith of SSI has carefully edited their works...". In the case of Sabbahudin, History of Afghanistan, the publisher disclaims any responsibility Fifelfoo (talk) 14:28, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Fifelfoo is correct, the source is unreliable in comparison to the vast array of scholarly works published by university presses and peer reviewed journals. The claim of a letter is extraordinary, and requires extraordinary sourcing. --Nuujinn (talk) 14:10, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

In other words you're saying we can make anything reliable and anything unreliable. It's fine with me because these things are not worth arguing over. The fact is that Wikipedia is useless without these sources.--Jrkso (talk) 14:18, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

No, the problem is that no reputable scholar claims we have letters actually written by Alexander. What we do have are reports of such letters by Plutarch, some of which are considered to be forgeries, others taken more seriously. Your source doesn't make this clear, nor does it give any indication of where the letter might be found so that it can be attributed correctly. If you can find the first known copy of this letter, presumably in Plutarch, it might be possible to use it in some fashion depending upon how it is attributed, if it is considered to be a forgery, etc. Dougweller (talk) 15:14, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

The letter is not the issue. The issue is that Alexander and his army had very hard time with the eastern Iranian tribes in and around Arachosia, the ancestor's of Afghans. The letter confirms this and so does this book, pages 68-88. Fifelfoo and Nuujinn are saying that the book by Abdul Sabahuddin is unreliable and made up a very poor excuse, but you skipped that to saying the letter is the problem. They didn't take the time to read these books that I cited. A. Sabahuddin doesn't claim that Alexander himself wrote the letter with his hand. Someone wrote it for him but in it Alexander told his mom that the eastern Iranian tribes were determined fighters. These eastern Iranian tribes are the same people that the US-NATO forces are fighting with today.--Jrkso (talk) 16:37, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Doug just a remark. There were more Greek historians who wrote about the campaign and whose work survives at least partially. Many were closer to the events than Plutarch. I can't remember off-hand what correspondence they report if any, but at least I'd say that editors do not need to think that the only near contemporary source would be Plutarch.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 16:33, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Does anyone other than Jrkso consider Sabahuddin's book a reliable source? Also, Jrkso, looking at the book you mention, pages 68-88. I see no mention of Alexander. --Nuujinn (talk) 16:50, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Are you sure you don't see Alexander mentioned in this book [1]. Is this some kind of a joke?--Jrkso (talk) 17:07, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict):::::::I meant that it is Plutarch where we find reported letters from Alexander, 30 I believe, although as I've said, they are controversial. We can't use the letter to confirm anything. I don't know what this 'someone wrote it for him' is about. Dougweller (talk) 16:54, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Jrkso, please cease refactoring your edits, it's making the conversation considerably more difficult than it need be. --Nuujinn (talk) 16:58, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Dougweller, the 'someone wrote it for him' is a response to your "No, the problem is that no reputable scholar claims we have letters actually written by Alexander." Alexander almost losing his life and his army [2], is that also unreliable? This was removed from Afghanistan. The guy who reported me at the top (User:Tajik) is an Afghan but acting like someone who is anti-Afghan. I find it strange that he is removing all of this interesting information.--Jrkso (talk) 17:07, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Nuujinn, I would appreciate it if you leave me alone.--Jrkso (talk) 17:11, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Do you mean that you're assuming someone wrote it for him? And I can't think of any reason to use Sabadhuddin's book when we have so many books that are unquestionably reliable sources. Dougweller (talk) 17:44, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't matter who wrote the letter, it is claimed "from Alexander to his mother". Read Wikipedia:Truth ("The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true...") and Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth. There are so many garbage sources cited in Wikipedia, I can't believe that this book is called unreliable here. Maybe before you guys start criticising it you should review the book and learn more about it and the author, "Professors, scholars, trainers, members of the publishing fraternity, and all those interested in the subject would find this book both interesting and informative." Sabahuddin has written a number of books [3], and everything he stated in his books are properly referenced. If anyone has doubts they can search and verify the info very easily like how I did it. The mention of Alexander's letter and calling the "eastern Iranian tribes as lion-like brave people" by Sabahuddin links to János Harmatta's this scholarly UNESCO work, which is a compilation by Asian-American-European professors (i.e. Ahmad Hasan Dani and many others). This János Harmatta's work obtained its info from the early historians such as Arrian, Strabo, and others. So, in order for someone to claim that A. Sabahuddin is an unreliable source, they must find a proven mistake in his book. We have to respect people from all over the world here, we can't be biased toward Muslims or Asians. We have to accept their work the same way we accept western scholars.--Jrkso (talk) 18:52, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

The guy who reported me here (User:Tajik) stated: "I have removed a dibious claim regarding an alleged letter by Alexander the Great in which he praises the present inhabitants of Afghanistan. That information is given by only one author (who happens to be Afghan) and cannot be found in any other sources..." That's how this whole issue began. Tajik himself is an Afghan but he calls the author A. Sabahuddin an Afghan, where does it mention that Sabahuddin is an Afghan? I like to know why is Tajik biased toward Afghans when he himself is Afghan?--Jrkso (talk) 19:16, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Jrkso, the issue is not about nationality, but about reliability. Unfortunately, like many other Pashtuns here (at least those I have met here), you somehow believe that "national interests" need to be defended on Wikipedia, while I believe that only scholarly and reliable information should be used. Of course, there is always some disagreement about what's reliable and what's not. But when it comes to Alexander, Alexander's campaigns and the occupation of Persia, there are many good sources. Of all those sources, you have picked a source that is totally unreliable. You are not even able to provide any information regarding the author, and as shown above, even the publishing house explicitly mentions that it is not taking responsibility for the book's message, i.e. it only reflects the author's personal view. So far, you have failed to come up with any good source, but you insist that the one book - written by an author who is a total mystery and very obviously neither an expert on Afghanistan nor on Greek history or language - is a reliable source. Well, it is NOT, and the only one who does not accept this FACT is you. Again: this is not about national interests. Yes, I am an Afghan. But that does not mean that I have to support all kinds of nonsense only because that nonsense is published and propagated by another Afghan. That Afghan author - as an individual - is an unreliable source. Period. As for János Harmatta: he is an expert on East Iranian languages (he is NOT a historian) and has published works on the language of the Xiongnu. He is a reliable scholar, but so far, we do not have any reliable work by him supporting your claim. Even the book you have posted above (History of Civilizations of Central Asia, p. 70ff, A.H. Dani/P. Bernard) does not make such a claim. On page 70, it is even mentioned that we do not even know why Alexander took this or that route. It's pure speculation. So: where does Abdul Sabahuddin have his information from? Only because an unreliable author makes a claim and uses the name of János Harmatta as a source, it does not mean that it is correct. If you are convinced that this mysterious letter was directly mentioned by Harmatta, then it should be absolutely no problem for you to find a better source. Until then, this alleged letter should not be mentioned. Not every published work is reliable. I could write a book, claiming that Alexander was a Chinese and then claim that my information is based on research by János Harmatta. Would it then be OK to use my book as a "reliable, published source"?! I do not think so! As for the quote from the book "The Afghans" (Vogelsang, Willem; 2002; p. 11), the author is referring to an incident that took place 500km further south, at the coast of the Arabian Sea in the desert of Makran, in what is now Pakistan. Jrkso selectively quoted a single part of the information, drew it into his own POV regarding that mysterious letter, falsifying the quote by Vogelsang. That "interesting information", as Jrkso describes it, should be quoted PROPERLY and NOT selectively. Tajik (talk) 19:29, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

First, not everyone can write a book. Most book writers that deal with history are qualified and they will never make any stupid or ridiculous claims such as calling worldly recognized Greek or Macedonian man a Chinese. Secondly, what do you have to say about Wikipedia:Truth ("The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true...") and Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth Can you tell me where do you find that A. Sabahuddin is Afghan?--Jrkso (talk) 20:49, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I repeat, all we have about letters from Alexander is the inscription on a stone and much later reports of letters. If evena report of this letter exists, find a source which says where it originates. Even the best academics can make mistakes, and I've searched for such a letter and couldn't find it, although I haven't yet looked directly at Plutarch. Dougweller (talk) 20:06, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, and we are not short of sources published by university presses and peer reviewed journals covering Alexander's forays. I see no evidence being presented that Sabahuddin's work is a reliable source. --Nuujinn (talk) 20:21, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

As one writer has said, "Our sources often refer to the contents of letters of Olympias sent to Alexander and occasionally contain material taken from Alexander's replies or his verbal reactions to his mother's correspondence. These fragments do not inspire much confidence in their authenticity, particularly because the Alexander Romance probably began as an epistolary historical novel. Indeed, the credibility of the correspondence preserved in Plutarch and other Alexander historians is part of the wider issue of the dependability of all letters quoted or paraphrased in the text of ancient writers. Scholarly tradition about the treatment of Alexander's correspondence has been to evaluate each letter on its individual merits." Dougweller (talk) 20:36, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

What kind of evidence you want? I don't see any evidence being presented about Sabahuddin's book being unreliable. You guys are just trying to tell me to go away, don't edit Wikipedia. I'm just gonna leave it like that because this isn't going to end up in my favor and I know it. The reason is not because I'm wrong, it's because I don't like to focus too much arguing over unimportant issues such as this.--Jrkso (talk) 20:46, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Jrkso, it can be difficult but take Doug's information as a good lead. There were second or third hand reports of letters by Alexander. As he says, they are questioned, but still anything from those old records is notable also. I have not looked at the content being discussed, but if you are just trying to say Alexander and his army had a tough time against the ancestors of the Afghans that should be sourceable. He did. But I doubt the reports of letters are the best way to do that. So there might be sources that could help you get across something of what you are aiming at. But you have to aim at something others will also accept. You can't just use any source and then twist it to fit what you think WP should say. Try to always ask yourself how others see it, or you'll get stuck in discussions like this.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 21:06, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Jrkso, as I have already explained to you on Talk:Afghanistan: it is not - I repeat: it is not - the community's job to prove an author or his sources wrong. It is each author's job and duty - I repeat: it is each author's job and duty - to provide reliable sources. If it were the other way around, then Wikipedia would have been pure nonsense, from A to Z. It is part of the filter mechanism of Wikipedia to check each author and his sources. And if the author cannot provide proper and reliable sources, then his edits will be removed. That easy. Do you understand? Tajik (talk) 21:23, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

It was administrator User:DanielCD who in July 2004 added to Wikipedia [4] the Alexander letter and calling Afghans as brave lion-like people. I'm not the author.--Jrkso (talk) 14:40, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

That doesn't matter. Administrators of this site don't have any special powers to determine if a source is reliable or not. And the source in question (Sabahuddin) appears quite unreliable compared to other historical works on Alexander. I have notified DanielCD of this discussion. Perhaps he used a different source back then, even though none was cited in the 2004 version of the article. Tijfo098 (talk) 02:33, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

I haven't read all of this, and I don't even remember this article. It was back from 2004?? It was a different world back then. But are you people trying to say I doctored a quote? Whatever. I can assure you I would never do something like that. That was a LONG time ago. Complain as you will, but if it's questionable, remove it and discuss it civilly. I have been around here long enough to have little patience for pointless accusation slinging. --DanielCD (talk) 14:14, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

I apologize for this mistake. When you've been around as long as I have, there are always little time bombs out there waiting to go off. I have looked, and will continue to look, for the source I used here. --DanielCD (talk) 15:52, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Tijfo098, you're comment about administrators is irrelevant. I was just leaving a note about where the info originated. Since DanielCD is an admin I had to mention that. Sabahudding being unreliable is a different issue and I don't feel like arguing over that.--Jrkso (talk) 13:50, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Tijfo098, you're comment about administrators is irrelevant. I was just leaving a note about where the info originated. Since DanielCD is an admin I had to mention that. Sabahudding being unreliable is a different issue and I don't feel like arguing over that.--Jrkso (talk) 13:50, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

DanielCD, no need to apologize, and I didn't mean to get you involved here. Also, there's no need to get frustrated over this. It's well recorded in history that Alexander had a very tough time in the land of Afghanistan, it took him 3 years to cross the land from one end to the other. Some of these events are even shown in the 2004 Alexander film. He married a girl (Roxanna) in what is now Afghanistan. There are many books which mention his hard time in Afghanistan, this is well known but some of these editors are not aware of this. I'm very sure you didn't make this up because I've read it in several places in the past, and I know it's mentioned in some books, I'll look for it when I have more time. What I don't understand is why some of these editors are strongly rejecting this.--Jrkso (talk) 13:50, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Jrkso I think people were objecting to very specific things, and not just the assertion that Alexander had a tough and long campaign in Afghanistan. If that is all you want to write then that should be very easy to source?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:05, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm lost and confused. What very specific things were they objecting to? The "Unreliable source and falsification of sources by User:Jrkso" section name, which is very rude, is saying that I'm a vandal falsifying information in Wikipedia. If you follow my edits, they are totally the opposite of that. If someone doesn't trust a book I cite I shouldn't be criticised. If an error is found in the book I shouldn't be criticised. If I write something in Wikipedia my way others are free to re-write it but they shouldn't criticise me and my writing skill. I think someone just wanted me to get blocked and they succeeded.--Jrkso (talk) 14:23, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Your edits and intentions may indeed have been described wrongly. You may also have described the edits and intentions of others wrongly. I'm mainly only mentioning this because I think it shows the way forward.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:26, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Just to inform people commenting here that the discussion below about Global Vision Publishing House might be of interest. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:57, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Social Networking source

There is a question from an editor regarding the use of a video archived on a social networking site, viz: Suzuki v. Consumers' Union. It's agreed that the video is authentic and useful, as well as being extremely rare. It doesn't appear to be available anywhere else since it was withdrawn from distribution after the settlement of the related court case. The problem is that WP:ELNO #10 prohibits using links to social networking sites. How can we use this source without running afoul of WP:ELNO #10? Santamoly (talk) 00:39, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

"It's agreed that the video is authentic." So cite the original work. My photocopies of a journal article are "authentic". I don't cite the Kyocera copier. Fifelfoo (talk) 00:45, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Did you miss the part where it's agreed by all that it's not available anywhere else? Hence the discussion. It's only available on the "social networking site" MySpace. Using your example, the video is stored in the memory of the Kyocera copier, not anywhere else. Santamoly (talk) 21:32, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Who agreed that the video is "authentic"? Jayjg ^(talk) 21:51, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

As an involved editor, I've seen nothing to indicate that the video is fake or altered, but I myself can't vouch for its authenticity since I'm not familiar with the source. WP:VIDEOLINK requires that "Reliability of the uploader and video must always be established", so it would seem the burden of proof is on the presenter ThatSaved (talk) 23:21, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

the hobbit is available in my local library. I still cite the author title and publisher of the book and not my library. Cite the original publication. Do not link to copyvios. Fifelfoo (talk) 23:32, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

not so sure about that... see: WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT Blueboar (talk) 00:46, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Copyrights#Linking_to_copyrighted_works; So cite the samizdat / bootleg, but don't link to it. In that case it would be OriginalAuthor, (copydate) [Originaldate] "OriginalTitle" [electronic copy of a video.] Original Publisher Location/Broadcast channel, Digitally copied and distributed via Current Host or Samizdat. For example, Tolkien, JRR The Hobbit London: Presslypress, 1991; versus Tolkien, JRR The Hobbit originally as London: Presslypress, 1991; reprinted in samizdat EbilBookPirateDistro, [?2009] as an .ePub file. Fifelfoo (talk) 00:56, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

[?American Suzuki Motor Corporation] / [?Gladstone International] (2007-07-02) [?undated] "Suzuki v. Consumers Union." [electronic copy of a video.] Originally: Video B-Roll; In bootleg/samizdat: "caleb cannon"[pseud.] "possumassaliant"[pseud.].

It is hard to see what makes this a reliable source for opinion, given that ASMC/Gladstone don't explicitly take responsibility for the work, similarly Video B-Roll. The source lacks an internal distribution date, or indication of a distributor other than Video B-Roll. About the only thing certain about the work is that it is an electronic copy of a video and that it has a clear title. Fifelfoo (talk) 01:10, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

As above, there's no indication that the video meets the requirements of WP:RS. And you can't cite unreliable sources; WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT applies to Reliable Sources only, since one does not cite unreliable ones. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:51, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand the position of being excessively legalistic to the point of perpetuating ignorance. A defective reference, in the absence of a better one, will at least serve as a reminder, a placeholder if you will, that a better source is out there somewhere. One can even remark that this is the best information uncovered to date, albeit not perfect. But you seem to be saying that complete ignorance of the fact that information exists is preferable to a clue leading towards a better source. This doesn't sound like an intellectually sound position at all. Santamoly (talk) 05:59, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

We have no indication that "that this is the best information uncovered to date". WP:V tells editors to use reliable sources, not to use unreliable sources if reliable ones cannot be found. Something is not always better than nothing. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:09, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Comment: If might add a point here. There are valid reasons that I had to go through Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_24#Using_a_posting_to_Youtube.com_by_the_copyright_holder to show that I could use a youtube video as a reference. Yes, it was (and is) annoying as all get out but there are very good reasons for it. Personally, we should use a demonstrated official channel copy of the video in question just to save on the migraines.--BruceGrubb (talk) 07:59, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Jayjg, I'm not sure which is the "unreliable source": is it the video itself? Or is it because it's being served by a social networking server? There seems to be some agreement that the video is genuine and useful, but the sticky point is that it's being served via the myspace (fox news) server. If we could extract the video from its server, and have it served from a different server, would it then become "reliable"? Even though it's accepted that the content of the video is accurate and historically relevant, I think we have to zero in on what exactly is the "unreliable" element of this item. Santamoly (talk) 05:24, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

It's unclear whether or not the source itself is reliable, and there is no indication that it is faithfully and accurately reproduced where it is hosted. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:06, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

It is disturbing to see the statement above "You can't cite unreliable sources; WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT applies to Reliable Sources only, since one does not cite unreliable ones." In reality we can't draw an unbreachable frontier between unreliable sources and reliable ones. Our aim is to use the most reliable, but, Wikipedia being a work in progress, we may start out with sources that are sitting on the borderline (or even on the wrong side of it). So what does the statement mean: if it's 51% unreliable, we don't cite it and we don't base anything at all on it, even temporarily? Or, if it's 51% unreliable, we don't cite it, we just plagiarise it while looking for something we can cite? Andrew Dalby 13:05, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

It is far more disturbing that you would write that. While sources that pass WP:RS do have varying degrees of reliability, and are only reliable in a given context, there are many, many sources that simply fail WP:RS. And we do draw an "unbreachable frontier" between those sources and Wikipedia articles. We may not "start out with sources that are... on the wrong side of it", and we certainly can't plagiarize - what on earth would give you that idea? Random crazy anonymous internet websites, for example, cannot be used for any information or citations on Wikipedia. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:52, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, let's hope everyone avoids random, crazy internet websites.

Let me give an example. I recently started Index censorum Rei Publicae Romanae on the Latin Vicipaedia. I could have used one of the existing Wikipedia pages on the subject as a basis, but those pages were formatted into tables; a handier basis, therefore, was a blog page elsewhere on the internet which contained a simple list, lacking citations but -- at a glance -- pretty accurate. I copied and pasted it; and then I gradually compared it with certainly-reliable sources, the main one being a scholarly article that I accessed through JSTOR. While I was working on it, what I did was to cite the blog page and indicate that it was our page's initial source. Not to cite it would have been plagiarism. But it was unreliable in the simple sense that I don't know the page's credentials, it was a blog, it had no references, etc.: it was a page put up by an ancient history buff, and some of those are good and others are terrible. What I'm trying to say is, we should be honest, and for that reason it's better if "say where you got it" doesn't have exceptions.

On the other hand, once the page has ceased to rely on the dubious source, the reference to that source needn't then remain on the page; it'll be in the history. Andrew Dalby 10:23, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

If the video was officially released by Suzuki then it could be fine without a link to Myspace. Has someone attempted to contact Suzuki to see if that is their video and how to obtain a copy? I don't see how the uploader/poster (someone named "caleb cannon") can be considered RS but he got that video from somewhere or he made it. Does not look like something someone would randomly create but we don't know. Of course, then SELFPUB comes into play and if it is unduely self-serving or making claims about third parties (the Consumers Union) then it may not be acceptable on those grounds. I saw that someone mentioned WP:VIDEOLINK up above. Just to clarify, that is an essay only (albeit a good one I think since I was the primary contributor). One of the most important things mentioned there (pulled from various discussions) is that if it is that hard to find a source discussing the video, is it really that important and worthy of any notice?Cptnono (talk) 23:38, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Andrew, if I find a non-reliable site that looks like it has reliable or factual information on it, I don't "copy and paste" it. Instead, I look for reliable sources that have the same information. Sometimes they do, in which case I use the reliable sources. Sometimes they disagree with the unreliable source, in which case I go with what the reliable sources say. And sometimes I simply cannot confirm what they say, in which case I (sadly) don't use the material. Here's an example: this source has lots of good information about Moishe Oysher, including a fascinating anecdote about his audition and initial employment at the First Roumanian-American congregation. As it happens, I wrote the First Roumanian-American congregation article, an FA. I'd love to include this story, but I can't find it in an other sources. So, for over two years now, it has remained out. We can't just start using sources that fail WP:RS until ones that do come along, even if we really like what the non-RS says, or personally believe it to be interesting and true. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:27, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

And you're right, of course -- and thanks for the link. It's a great article.

Very many Wikipedia articles start out with no evident sourcing at all, or with sourcing that is unacceptable and must urgently be improved. We have templates that say so. My only doubt about your approach is that it minimises this, the "work in progress" side of Wikipedia, which I have always found to be one of its best features. But I guess, as Cptnono's comment reminds us, we're getting off topic :) Andrew Dalby 09:20, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Is the "Good Things Company" unreliable?

My edits on Genealogy of Jesus Christ are continuously being reverted with comments questioning the validity of my source 12. My question is this: Is the "Good Things Company" a reliable, verifiable, source? I give the same reasoning as on the discussion page:

Thank you, mentor, a most enlightening piece of literature, I must say, and can be boiled down to 3 words: 'reliable', 'verifiable', and 'sources'. Is my source reliable? What is "reliable"? You seem to be making your own definition, "it must be unreliable because it is a commercial enterprise". Well, I get my definition from Wikipedia's policy, specifically WP:RS. I quote, "Reliable sources may therefore be published materials with a reliable publication process; they may be authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject in question; or they may be both.". That is why I gave as much information as I could on the publication. So that there would be no confusion as to the publication process for my source. The only thing this company does is make Biblical genealogies for a living; they certainly have authority on the subject. Do you know any other company that devotes their entire study to the completion of biblical Genealogies? If so, they would probably make a better source then mine. Otherwise, I have the most reliable source.

Is my source verifiable? You don't seem to question this, but just in case you do, I have the definition from the dictionary, Wikipedia's dictionary that is: Verifiable Adj., Etymology: Verify + Able. 1. Able to be verified or confirmed. This is the frustrating part with Wikipedia. Of course my sources are verifiable!. If you don't believe the Good Things Company, just open a Bible and verify or confirm their sources.

But can the poster, "the Adam and Eve Family Tree" be counted as a source, in the first place? After all, it's not a book, journal, or magazine, it's something that hangs on the wall. But does a source really need to have tunable pages in order to used on Wikipedia? Let's get back to your favorite article, WP:RS. I quote again, "Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article, and should be appropriate to the claims made." Let's see... A poster that only talks about the genealogy of Jesus Christ, and an article titled, "The genealogy of Jesus Christ". You know, I can't find anything similar, can you?--Nate2357 (talk) 02:10, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

I would say, no. A trinkets company's poster would not be a reliable source, who knows where they got their information from or how well they vetted it. Your best bet for this type of information would be a peer reviewed journal or book by a respected historian, etc. Heiro 02:38, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Also, a reliable source has to be one anyone else can obtain a copy or version of to check and make sure what you have added to the article is actually in the source. How many of the rest of us do you think have a copy of your poster to look at and verify your additions? Heiro 02:40, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

I have a difficult time believing that someone is actually trying to claim that a poster, put together in this fashion, is a reliable source. It is not, and should not be used as a source. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:02, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Let's review ounce again the definition of a source to Wikipedia's standards (reliable, verifiable, source):

Source - Where in the Policy does it state that if I don't have a peer-reviewed journal or book to back up my information, (in this case saying, "the Good things Company made a poster...") than I don't have a true source? Where does it say that a peer-reviewed journal or book is the only means of obtaining reliable information? The policy never makes such restrictions.

Verifiable - This seems to be the point at which you all seem to have problems with. The poster is filled with citations from stem to stern, top to bottom. It only talks about the Genealogy of Jesus (hence, I placed it in the article, Genealogy of Jesus), and it does not make a single statement without supplying at least 3 verses from the Bible. Yes, it is verifiable.

But you make an extra point. How can my source be verified or considered reliable if not everyone can obtain it? My answer is: they don't have to. Availability does not necessarily mean verifiability. Not everyone has Apollodorus's the Library, yet that is used as a source frequently. Not everyone has "Indo-European Language and Culture" by Benjamin W. Fortson IV, yet that's also used as a source.

For future notice, may I request that we only cite examples in Wikipedia from the policy and abroad? It's just not fair that you all give your personal opinion while I pour sweat with proofs. So then. Is the Adam and Eve Family Tree a reliable source?--Nate5713 (talk) 18:32, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

So what your wanting to do is copy the entire content of the poster? Is that genealogy list contained in that form in th bible or did they have to hunt out bits and pieces here and there and put them together? If its the latter and you just copy it verbatim into our article, wouldnt that be a copyright violation? Heiro 05:55, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

I repeat, it is not a reliable source. There is a section in WP:Verify about reliable sources which says !Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". There's no evidence that these amateurs have such a reputation. See also Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources. Meanwhile, despite this discussion, Nate5713 is editwarring to get this included. Dougweller (talk) 07:15, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

I've found another example where Nate5713 shows he doesn't understand our policy on sources. At Emperor Yao, see [5], he attempted to use one of our Wikipedia articles as a citation. Now the problem isn't just the fact that you can't use our articles as citations, or that he got the name of the article wrong, it is also that if you read the article The Wallchart of World History it's pretty obvious that we shouldn't be using this wallchart as a source for an article on legendary figure in Chinese history. Wall charts are never going to be a reliable source for historical articles, and I doubt for any articles. Dougweller (talk) 07:25, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

There may be a copyvio issue here also, see this discussion. Dougweller (talk) 21:04, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

• I don't see how the Good Things Company's family tree chart is an appropriate reliable source for the genealogy of Jesus. The company got all of its information from the Bible; they didn't go back and check birth certificates from Biblical times (which obviously did not exist) or anything like that. I don't see how the Good Things Company's chart adds any information that couldn't be found in the Bible anyway. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 22:32, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

BNP

IS this RS [[6]] for the BNP's 1992 manifesto.Slatersteven (talk) 12:26, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

no. There's no evidence Richard Kimber retransmits faithfully. Fifelfoo_m (talk) 09:54, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Reliability of the Joshua Project as source

I just want to know if Wikipedia considers the site The Joshua Project a reliable source on ethnic groups data (on name and amount, for example). There has been much debate in the talk page about the real existance of the group named White Argentines (in the JP it appears as Argentinians White). Here is the link to the page of Argentina's ethnic groups: The Joshua Project: Ethnic people groups of Argentina.

And here is the statement in the article:

The Joshua Project -that provides information on ethnic people groups around the world, with missionary purposes- states that White Argentines and other whites (Europeans and Middle-Easterners) in Argentina comprise 85.8% of the total population. This percentage does not show explicitly, but after doing some mathematics, the results are as follows: Argentinians White -the resulting ethnic group out of the melting pot of immigration in Argentina- sum up 29,031,000 or 72.3% of the population. The other European/Caucasus ethnic groups and Uruguayans White sum up 4,258,500 (10.6%), and Arabs sum 1,173,100 more (2.9%). All together, Whites in Argentina would comprise 34,462,600 or 85,8% out of a total population of 40,133,230.

It must be said that the percentage obtained out of the amount of people agrees with the % provided by other sources cited in the article.--Pablozeta (talk) 15:49, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

No, the Joshua Project was created to support a religious 'Mission'. It is not a scholarly research project, even if it may have based - or claims to have based - its information on reliable secondary sources. If the latter is true, you would need to consult the original sources (as long as they're RS). It's as simple as that. Cavila (talk) 09:59, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Proof of trademark ownership (or limbo)

What would be a sufficient RS for stating that the trademark, once recognized in the United States, is (a) now in limbo and (b) is now genericized?

Specifically, see the case of Vactrol in Opto-isolator#Resistive_opto-isolators. According to the USPTO database, the original Vactrol granted in 1969 for these opto-isolators to Vactec, Inc. is now dead [7]. The same trademark, according to the USPTO, is now owned by someone else and covers a different product [8]. Is this sufficient RS to say that the original opto-isolator trademark has expired?

The next question, what is sufficient proof for backing up "genericized trademark" claim? It's not aspirin and not a yo-yo, so there's a ton of specialist literature using the word as if it was generic, but no RS positively saying "yes, it is".

Cheers, East of Borschov 18:40, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

I'll reply on talk there since this isn't discussing the reliability of any particular source. It's more of a "how much are we allowed to infer from sources" question. Tijfo098 (talk) 18:51, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Requesting help with sources being misrepresented in an article

The Article in question is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MonaVie

This article was added to WikiProject Companies recently. I currently have no connections to this company however this article has been around for a few years already. I have read all the sources used for this article of this company and found that the article has quite a bit of POV. Most of the Statements in the Lead are not at all Factual or supported by the references. Here are some examples of the statements made in the article.

"MonaVie has been the subject of controversy, as health benefit claims for its products have not been scientifically confirmed or approved by regulatory authorities,"

There are no sources that provide any proof of the MonaVie company making any claims that were not approved by regulatory authorities. The sources state there was an independent distributor who created his own website and posted some health claims that the FDA warned him about .However the MonaVie Company was never warned directly nor did the FDA say anything about any claims the actual company had made.

"its CEO was previously involved in false health claims of another beverage" I cant find any mention of the CEO of MonaVie Dallin Larsen being involved in any false claims. The only facts I can see in the source articles are that he had a senior post in Usana and left the company a year before the FDA shut it down according to the newsweek article.

"the business plan is similar to a pyramid scheme" after discussing with some editors about the article I was told that this sentence is justified by the wording of "“Team is one step ahead of all these juice selling schemes. It is a pyramid atop a pyramid. It is selling motivational aids to help MonaVie vendors move the juice" in forbes and these statements here ”In a 1979 regulatory action involving [Amway], the Federal Trade Commission attempted to draw lines between legitimate and fraudulent pyramids. The ones that are legit focus on getting revenue from consumer goods sold to retail customers. The FTC did not, however, define ‘retail’ in that case. That leaves plenty of wiggle room for guys like Orrin Woodward; he counts the vast majority of people in his pyramid, who seemingly try but fail to make money, as retail customers.”

The source used mainly for calling this company a pyramid scheme was this article here http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2008/0811/050.html The problem with using this article to call the company of MonaVie a pyramid scheme is that this source is an article about Orrin Woodwards TEAM company and not of the Company of MonaVie. And I cant find anything in the article that makes calling anything a pyramid scheme possible.

"and very few distributors actually make a profit" This statement may need updating with new information about the income of distributors as a few of the articles used to source this are old however one source article mentions 1% see a profit however in another article we have numbers like 45 percent and 37 percent seeing profits. about 45 percent of the company's distributors earned an annualized average check of less than $1,600, while 37 percent took home about $2,000. About 2 percent earned an annualized average check of more than $29,000, according to a company statement. And just seven of MonaVie's 80,000 distributors took home the big money, more than $3 million. This information is from 2008 it appears and the company started in 2005 so this is still a young company. It is also possible many of these distributors are merely customers who are only using the products and are not interested in building a business. New information for 2010 needs to be found to update this article however it still is only a 5 year old company.

Could we receive assistance here with checking the statements in the sources and comparing them to the statements made in the article? Thank you for taking the time to read this.DavidR2010 (talk) 22:01, 5 November 2010 (UTC)DavidR2010DavidR2010 (talk) 22:01, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

All of the claims are exhaustively sourced. There has been a lengthy discussion on the article talk page, where DavidR2010 has several times refused to answer whether he has been involved with this company, or has a conflict of interest. In the course of discussion, DavidR2010 has made an implicit legal threat against Wikipedia[9]. There also appear to be several new single-purpose accounts taking part in the discussion. RolandR (talk) 15:41, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

I am only worried about wikipedia here could we please have someone look at the actual information in the articles and compare them to the statements in the wikipedia article instead of just skimming them over quickly and saying how well sourced they are? Thanks DavidR2010 (talk) 19:52, 6 November 2010 (UTC)DavidR2010DavidR2010 (talk) 19:52, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

This is the Reliable Sources noticeboard. The sources are indeed reliable. If you are questioning how the article uses the sources, that is a matter for the article talk page. If you are questioning the reliability of the sources, please indicate which ones, and why they are unreliable. Without a long essay, please.RolandR (talk) 20:02, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

For now since you mentioned reliable sources would it be possible to have this source checked http://www.juicescam.com/monavies-d-better-business-bureau-rating/

I am concerned because It looks like it is trying to discredit the Better Business Bureau in another article on the site here http://www.juicescam.com/did-monavie-pay-for-a-better-grade-from-the-better-business-bureau/ immediately after MonaVie received an A+ recently and may also be a biased source and yet it is used as a source Reference number 21 in the MonaVie article.

Thanks for the reply about the issue Roland Ive tried on the talk page to get the point across that the statements made in the wikipedia Monavie article are not the POV of the sources. It is frustrating though as people are telling me the sources are reliable which is not the issue at all.

Im just trying to pass this article along to third parties to look over for fact finding and cleanup. Could you help with this please or possibly direct me to where to ask for this kind of help? Thanks. DavidR2010 (talk) 20:55, 6 November 2010 (UTC)DavidR2010DavidR2010 (talk) 20:55, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Australian rhyming slang - James Cook

Hi, I'm having trouble figuring-out whether the following sources are reliable ones for the following sentence from James Cook:
"In Australian rhyming slang the expression "have a Captain Cook" means "have a look"."

• [10] - the current used source of the sentence.

• [11]

• [12]

• [13]
  Thanks --George2001hi (Discussion) 22:20, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

A Captain Cook is more common. Here is a source you could use (I own a copy): Baker, Sidney (1966), The Australian Language, Sun Books, Melbourne, p. 360 --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:00, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, I'll add it to the article later. --George2001hi (Discussion) 13:46, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

No worries. Remember that a Captain Cook is what is being sourced, not a James Cook. I do not doubt that someone somewhere will have an example of a James Cook on record, but I never heard it, and as an Australian I have to say that unlike the Cockney equivalent, the rhyming slang tradition in Australia is far more well-known in theory than in practice, and so here on Wikipedia we should try to avoid anything too far fetched. If we don't we'll face the scorn of future browsers from down-under. I think the only common rhyming slang you still down under is "frog and toad" (hit the road)? (And it is normally meant to elicit groans.) ...But I would have understood "Have a Captain Cook".--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 20:21, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Paul Goble's blog

Paule A. Goble, a notorious Russophobic journalist, writes a blog with the theme of the impending doom of Russia called window on eurasia. His blog is self-published, and he has a very poor reputation for fact checking and accuracy, as noted in the above linked blogs and various other places within the blogosphere. All biases aside, the amount of factual inaccuracy that can be found in his writing is simply astounding for a so called "award winning" journalist.

Reliable source? Seems like a no-brainer to me, yet.... (Note: The Kyiv post link simply redirects to his blog). LokiiT (talk) 04:40, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

We've got an article on Paul A. Goble. While this is the first time I have heard anything about him, if our article is accurate, he has been an advisor to Voice of America, Radio Liberty, the US State Department, and the CIA, which seems to make for as good a reputation as can be requested in this field. Now arguably all of those organizations are also notoriously Russophobic :-) but they still meet our qualifications to be Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Seems like a self published article by a previously published expert. The fact that he has his critics doesn't lessen that fact. Rephrasing the statement from "There have been reports that ..." to "Paul A. Goble reports that ..." may be better. --GRuban (talk) 19:13, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

WP:SPS states: "Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves." - it specifically says they cannot be used as a source for claims about third parties or events unrelated to the source. And for good reason; there is absolutely no accountability for his claims; he can and does say whatever he wants without consequence to his professional life. LokiiT (talk) 21:30, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

As a blog, it's not a WP:RS. Offliner (talk) 21:34, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

The quote LokiiT cites is actually from the paragraph below the one tagged WP:SPS. And it's actually a misquotation, I'm afraid, which makes a big difference. The quoted sentence doesn't end with a full stop in the way that it is quoted. It goes on "... without the requirement in the case of self-published sources that they be published experts in the field, ..." In other words, they can only be cited about subjects other than themselves if they are published experts in the field. A rather important omission. The relevant line I was referring to is "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." Again, with the caveat that our article on him is correct, Goble seems to meet that. --GRuban (talk) 23:10, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

It's an op-ed piece published in the Kyiv Post, that it links to a blog is immaterial. The question is whether op-eds published by national news agencies are RS? Yes they are for the opinion of the author. I agree with GRuban, provided that proper attribution is given such as "Paul A. Goble reports that ...", it should be okay. --Martin (talk) 22:18, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

As a former CIA operative, trained in disinformation, psy-ops, etc, Paul A. Goble is clear example of what is NOT reliable source. --DonaldDuck (talk) 08:03, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Considering he is named "russophobic" in a blog of an ultra-nationalist/racist hate-monger, I would ignore that claim completely. "former CIA operative, trained in disinformation, psy-ops" is an utter nonsense sounding like it is lifted directly from Soviet propaganda.

However, I think we should use Goble's blog only in case there are no other sources available. As far as I know, a lot of his blog entries are actually articles published elsewhere, i.e. in journals and newspapers - if that is the case, I would link to his blog even if the article is available, as quite a few journals pull the articles after a while (WSJ, Washington Post etc). He is a widely recognized expert in the field, so per WP:SPS we may use the blog unless we are dealing with BLP article, but I would be very careful in doing so.

--Sander Säde 10:54, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Humanevents.com

Is humanevents.com a reliable source in general? Is it a reliable source on living persons?

The editors include such persons as Ann Coulter. Its About us main page alludes to theories of a conspiracy to hide the truth:

• "[we reveal] ...facts that mainstream reporters go to extraordinary lengths to keep you from ever learning about."
• "the real "endangered species" these days are truth and common sense."
• "In every issue, you will savor that rare moment in journalism when the thick fog of liberal bias is blown away to reveal... THE NAKED, BEDROCK TRUTH!"

Human Events may certainly have been a reliable source 50 or even 20 years ago. But that hardly seems the case today.VR _talk 05:32, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

• Is someone trying to cite a Human Events article here on Wikipedia in support of some statement? If so, which one, and what statement are they using Human Events to support? Human Events is undoubtedly an opinionated conservative source, but if you are looking for someone to say that it's not reliable for anything, I can't provide that for you. I mean, right now, HumanEvents.com's top headline says "Keith Olbermann Suspended Indefinitely By MSNBC". Which is true. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 22:21, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Most unreliable sources are true the majority of times.

I specifically asked whether it is a reliable source on BLPs, which are sensitive. It has been used to make negative statements about living persons.VR _talk 03:51, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

But to properly evaluate those statements, it would be helpful to know what those statements are. Metropolitan90 (talk) 17:04, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Just beacuse Ann Coulter is also a contibutor there, it does not make it a non RS, some of their articles are opinionated though.Chorlseton (talk) 06:58, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

VR is referring to this dispute I am involved with on the Newt Gingrich article. He has twice removed material quoting a Human Events writer stating that Gingrich was the first major US politician to speak out on sharia law, saying that it's not a reliable source. I have twiced placed it back, and explained why on the Talk page. I think he means it is a biased source, and it certainly is that. I would be wary of its use for many purposes. But Human Events is a recognized opinion leader in the American conservative movement, so its use here is appropriate. Stargat (talk) 18:58, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that particular column is a reliable source about a living person. It seems to be an editorial, an opinion piece; and just the claim "the first major US politician to speak out on sharia law" seems very vague. What makes Gingrich "the first major US politician"? He certainly used to be major, but he's not currently holding or even running for any political office, so how major is "major"? And what's "speaking out on sharia law"? It's hundreds of years old, and rather important, surely in the history of the US, some US politician has said something about it. I'd argue we should leave the statement out, on grounds of both reliability and undue weight. There is plenty more to say about the former speaker of the house than something so vague. If you want to say he actively campaigned for a specific law, fine, we can surely cite that with more than just a line of editorial puffery. --GRuban (talk) 19:59, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Germans and Franks

Is the quotation, "However, by a polite fiction, educated Catholics give them the name of Orthodox which they have usurped. The term Schismatic Greek Church is synonymous with the above; nearly everybody uses it, but it is at times inexpedient to do so, if one would avoid wounding the feelings of those whose conversion is aimed at", from an article in the Catholic Encyclopedia, a reliable source for the statement, "... the Germans and Franks used the teaching of the Filioque and Papal authority to distinguish an anti-Greek (anti-Eastern) character" (Filioque#Eastern Romans, Byzantines, Greeks)?

The quotation is not made by "Germans and Franks", and mentions neither Germans nor Franks; but the editor who inserted the quotation as verification of the statement insists that it be maintained, and has said: "Take it up with the noticeboard" (Talk:Filioque#Quotation from the 1909 Catholic Encyclopedia). Esoglou (talk) 06:07, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

I couldn't find Germans or Franks mentioned in that source, did I miss it somewhere? If its not there then this would seem to be a case of WP:SYNTH at best and the citation does not back up the statement. Heiro 06:27, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

I also can't see the relevance. So I am not sure how this can be a question for this board.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 16:06, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Despite the persistence of an editor in denying what seems obvious to the commentators who have intervened above, can we perhaps already give him a negative response to his claim that the quotation is a reliable source for the statement in question? However, the matter is far from urgent. Esoglou (talk) 17:38, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

That type of question is always a bit problematic. You are asking people here to give a comment about context in a content discussion they are not involved in. You give a description which, if it is correct, does not sound like a valid RSN case, but what often happens when people come here with content disputes is that other people involved in the dispute actually disagree with the description of the dispute. Not sure if anyone else has a more useful answer.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 20:14, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

You seem to think that this is a content dispute. It is not. I am not asking for removal of the statement that this citation is supposed to support, one that has two other citations to support it. The question is only whether this particular citation is or is not a reliable source for the statement. It is doubtless a reliable source for other matters, but is it a reliable source for statements about actions of the Franks and Germans of a millennium ago? That seems to be a straightforward question to which surely almost anyone can give a straightforward answer. Esoglou (talk) 21:29, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

No, this particular citation is not a reliable source for the statement, for two reasons. (1) I can't find anything in the Catholic Encyclopedia article in question that matches the statement to be used here in Wikipedia. (2) This particular Catholic Encyclopedia article is primarily about the Eastern Orthodox Church and describes that church in a negative and hostile way. This particular encyclopedia article "Greek Church" reflects views from over 100 years ago (it was published in 1909) and is too biased to be used as a general source by Wikipedia. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 22:01, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Esoglou, yes I think if you both agree that the source is reliable for related issues (which Metropolitan90 disagrees with it seems) but disagree how to use it exactly, then this is at least not purely a question of source reliability, but more concerning content decisions?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:32, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I feel sure that nearly everyone, including Metropolitan90, agrees that it is a reliable source concerning one early-20th-century man's view of the Greek Orthodox Church of that time, but not a reliable source concerning the actual state of that Church either then or at any other time before or after. I don't know what are the related issues to which you refer (if you mean the Greek Orthodox Church - since you seem to disagree with Metropolitan90's judgement - I really think you must be alone in considering it a reliable source on that topic), and I presume in particular that, by now, not even you would defend it as a reliable source concerning actions of Franks and Germans towards the end of the first millennium. Esoglou (talk) 10:28, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Metropolitan90 is correct here. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:28, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

tvtropes.org

IS tvtropes.org RS fopr information about plots nad story elements?Slatersteven (talk) 14:30, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

No, as it is user-generated content.Dlabtot (talk) 18:11, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

That is what I thought, but the user (who is using it) seems fairly new and I wanteed to confirm it using some one uninvolved with the page.Slatersteven (talk) 14:12, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Dlabtot. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:29, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Rabbi Pinto

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbi_pinto Nearly all of the articles appear on blogs and not the actual papers. Most of the articles referenced are fringe foreign Hebrew newspapers, and these are the English translations of the site. Please assist as these are not original reliable sources.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.112.21.194 (talk • contribs) 18:38, 6 November 2010

I haven't looked closely at the article; but enough to see that none of it is cited to "fringe foreign Hebrew newspapers". Some of it is cited to Haaretz, which is about as far from fringe as a Hebrew source could be. Most of the other sources cited seem on the face of it reliable. If you have a concern with any particular source, please specify it, so that this can be discussed. RolandR (talk) 18:21, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

From what I can tell none of the sources are in Hebrew, and none of them are "fringe". One of the 11 sources is a blog, which is problematic, but it's a reprint of an article in a reliable newspaper, so the solution would be to find the article in the actual newspaper. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:22, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Maths Pages

I'm sure that this question has been asked before, but I need to have some clarification. Are maths pages accepted as a reliable source? I definitely recall reading somewhere that they are accepted as a reliable source, but I now have a situation in which I used maths pages to verify the claim that centrifugal force is a concept which arises in the context of polar coordinates, but that this information is being rejected on the grounds that maths pages are not a reliable source. I don't think that anybody actually doubts the subject matter as such, but nevertheless, for some reason, it is a piece of information which is strongly resisted at the centrifugal force article. In relation to the source in question, I had a very interesting response from an editor which reads as,

The Mathpages is a very intereresting work (- i.m.o. it is piece of art -) but it can never serve as an authoritative source as a basis for Wikipedia content.

This editor, while appearing to concur with the contents is nevertheless keen that certain information in the source is not repeated on the main centrifugal force article. It would seem that his reasons are purely the fact that mathpages are not acceptable for verification purposes. So in order to establish whether this is a content dispute or a dispute about the legitimacy of sources, I need an opinion as to whether or not maths pages are acceptable. And I assume that any such consensus on the matter will be binding across the board, and not just in relation to this particular issue. David Tombe (talk) 20:20, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

This editor also said: "It is someone's personal (and, apart from one chapter, book-unpublished) view. It clearly is an ideal entry for the External links section, and perhaps even for the Further reading list, but the unpublished parts can never be used as a wp:RS, and can certainly never replace a solid textbook source.", the latter apparently being what David Tombe had in mind. DVdm (talk) 20:27, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

"Unpublished" is not the right word to use here... the fact that it is on a web-page means that it has been "published". It is more correct to say that the material is "self-published" by the website's owner. As such, it has has a limited reliability. See: WP:SPS. Blueboar (talk) 15:52, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Is that the general policy on maths pages? David Tombe (talk) 15:55, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't see how the essays on the mathpages website could be regarded as satisfying Wikipedia's criteria for reliable sources. At least some of those essays are simply copies (perhaps with some subsequent editing) of the author's postings to usenet news groups. This essay, for example is just a lightly edited version of these two articles posted to the sci.math usenet newsgroup in December 1995. Wikipedia's verifiability policy says specifically that "internet forum postings" are "largely not acceptable as sources". While it might be true that not all the essays on the website are copies of usenet postings, I don't see how there's any way for a non-expert to distinguish whether any of them that aren't could be regarded as being any more "reliable" than those that are.

Nor does the author of the essays, Kevin S. Brown, appear to be an "established expert" in any of the topics treated in them (although, as far as I can tell from my own knowledge of some of those topics, at least some of the essays are, in fact, very good). So, despite the apparent high quality of some of the essays, there appears to be no reasonable grounds for exempting them from the verifiability policy's normal rules against self-published sources.

David Wilson (talk · cont) 16:52, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree with David Wilson's analysis. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:23, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

David, Thanks for your detailed response, and I'm glad that you thought the author of the article wrote very well. I would agree with you about that. Meanwhile, the problem has been now solved. An editor has acknowledged at WT:PHYS that the polar coordinate centrifugal force exists, and that it should appear more explicitly in the article. Took nearly four years to get there! And as regards maths pages, I'll bear in mind what you have said for future reference, which is that they are not reliable sources. David Tombe (talk) 19:41, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Global Vision Publishing House plagiarism and circular referencing problem

A while back, I found a book published by Global Vision Publishing House that was basically a compilation of Wikipedia articles, published without attribution. The book in question is listed here. What I didn't realise at the time was how big this problem could be, given the risk of circular referencing that it creates. I just did a search for Global Vision Publishing House and quite a lot of articles seem to reference their books. I picked one at random, Geography of New Caledonia, and followed the reference there to a Global Vision book called Foundation of Geology. Surprise, surprise, the book plagiarises Wikipedia and the material that is being used to support the Wikipedia article is from, you guessed it, Wikipedia. The whole section of the chapter is copied from Wikipedia's continent article. Any suggestions for what to do about this problem? Cordless Larry (talk) 21:43, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

OK, putting quotation marks around the search terms significantly reduces the number of results returned, so it seems that not many articles are affected. However, the potential for future circular referencing clearly remains. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:47, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Another aspect of the same problem: I did an amazon search for "Eleftherios Venizelos" recently and found at least the first two pages almost full of "books" that appear to be Wikipedia mirrors. Not having examined these things, I don't know whether they acknowledge Wikipedia or simply plagiarise it. In this case the publishers are Books LLC and (same format, apparently mirroring the German Wikipedia) Bücher Gruppe; also, less prominent, Alphascript Publishing. How many others are there? Andrew Dalby 09:53, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately, more and more. Books LLC is one example, the Icon Group is another. They basically copy/repackage Wikipedia content and print books of that material at extremely high prices. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:26, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Wow, I followed the Icon Group link and that's pretty depressing stuff. This makes for sad reading, if you ask me. Perhaps this merits inclusion in a second edition of your book on Wikipedia, Andrew! Cordless Larry (talk) 08:04, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

For better or worse, publishers without real fact checking have been around since printing began. I suppose they did not affect scientific subjects quite so much in the past though.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:21, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

They have always been with us, that's quite true, but we on Wikipedia are presenting a lot of raw material to such publishers -- at the very moment when their accountants are telling them they can't afford copy-editors or fact checkers any more. Andrew Dalby 12:50, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Oh yes, it is depressing in that sense for sure. But then again it is also cheaper for other types of people to publish these days, not just these guys. I am a genealogist, and an over-whelming mass of self-published materials which copy off of each other was already building up before the internet took and now causes quiet a lot of confusion. One could argue it started in the 19th century. But I think it is a nett positive. What I was responding to was the problem for this board. I do not see that as overly depressing, because I think publications without fact checking will always be out there and always need to be discussed. (And for genealogists also there already basic practices that people should have been following concerning how to use and cite sources.)--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:00, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Kurdish diaspora relying heavily on the Joshua Project

The article Kurdish diaspora relies heavily on Joshua Project for the Kurdish population which I consider to be extremley unreliable. The article also uses the Kurdish Institute of Paris which is probably much more reliable. I wish to remove the Joshua Project sources, is there any objections? Turco85 (Talk) 12:28, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

At a guess a website collecting demographic info for christian missionaries isn't going to be a reliable source, so here's one user agreeing with you.--Misarxist 12:31, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Also without looking into it detail, this does not seem like an appropriate source.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 13:53, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Twitter as a source

The article Toshiaki Imae uses this tweet by Jason Coskrey, who is a professional writer covering Japanese baseball for the Japan Times.

I'm just wondering if twitter can be used to source articles in this way, and, if so, how do we properly cite twitter. If not, do we just wait until the author publishes it in their regular story? XinJeisan (talk) 22:23, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

There is no editorial oversight of JCoskrey on twitter; it is not a reliable source. Fifelfoo (talk) 22:49, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Here's a better source: "Marines fight off Dragons for Japan Series title", Jim Allen Daily Yomiuri "Toshiaki Imae, who won his second Series MVP Award, ..." --GRuban (talk) 19:36, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

www.kayecorbett.com/Counterfeit%20Hero.html

Is this RS for purposes of stating in Linda McMahon "Linda became President of the WWF as a legal maneuver to save the company in 1993. At the time, Vince had been indicted on charges he distributed steroids to his wrestlers." ? Collect (talk) 02:13, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

No. That's a pretty controversial claim about a living person, that we want good sources on. The source seems dubious - it's not clear, but it seems to be a book that didn't make it to publication, so is being put up as a web page. Kaybe Corbett may or may not be an expert about wrestling, but for a controversial statement about a living person, we want a non-self published source. Finally, even the source doesn't say that. It merely says:

“ McMahon transferred his titles over to his wife, Linda, since he claimed she had been largely responsible for running the business end while he looked after the creative side. However, the business had to snicker at the latest Vince Shuffle, since he knew full well of the on-going Grand Jury investigation into his affairs. ... "It's not as big a deal as people are making it out to be," claimed Titan spokesman Steve Planamenta. "People are reading things into this that aren't there." However, speculation ran rampant that the changes were made because of the investigation. ”

So even the source doesn't come right out and say it was a legal maneuver, merely that there were snickers and speculation. No. We need a better source, and we need it to actually say what we say it does.--GRuban (talk) 17:13, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Gospel of Luke

An editor named Leadwind is deleting a lot of cited material off of Gospel of Luke and with it pushing a heavily skewed POV. He is deleting material because he says the publishers are "sectarian" even though they are some of the largest and most recognzied publishers in the world. Unfortunately I am outnumbered and cannot do a whole lot, but his reasons for deleting "sectarian" material certainly go against wikipedia policy. Will some editors go over there and look at some of his edits as well as the talk page?RomanHistorian (talk) 15:31, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Looking at the most recent discussion at first sight I see nothing wrong with the question Leadwind is asking. He is asking for more information about a publishing concern which he thinks is being used a lot, and you are not denying it is used a lot. So why not get some more information about the source and state the case for it? Is that the discussion you mean? Of course whether you are right or he is right is not the point for this noticeboard to discuss.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 15:58, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I have and he just ignores what I say. I restored some of Leadwind's POV pushing here. I am sure he will restore it, but just look at his methodology. He completely discounts the legitimacy of non-skeptical schoalars, even when they comment on the views of scholarship at large. I really can't say much to him.RomanHistorian (talk) 17:06, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

At least you've given a diff now, but I do not see you answering his question yet. In any case, a quick google books search seems to show the work you want to use is being cited by various reliable looking publications. I see no good reason yet to be deleting citations from it.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 17:57, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

This is not a forum for airing your grievances against another editor. Please refrain from such comments. Dlabtot (talk) 18:52, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Translation from Hiragana?

[14] I need to know what this page says to see if it is a good source or not. I have already found a site that has a semi-translation for the diary entries at the end (though it is paraphrased badly), but if anyone can do the paragraphs before that that would be great Mew Mitsuki (talk) 19:46, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

List of living supercentenarians#Verified living supercentenarians

This chart relies almost exclusively on this list. But I don't think it's in any way a reliable source, as that term is defined on en.wikipedia. How does one know who contributes to the list and how much editorial control anyone has over it? So it may be unreliable. On the other hand, if it's very reliable, it's a primary source. Using it for citations on WP is thus prohibited original research or prohibited synthesis.

There are battles going on all over the wiki right now over longevity, centenarians and supercentanarians. But if the list at www.grg.org is not a wiki-kosher reliable source, either because its contribution and editorial control policies are too opaque, or, conversely, because it is a primary source, a whole lotta articles and lists fall of their own weight.

The topic requires an influx of nuetral, uninvolved editors to look things over. The disputants have become too entrenched and incivil, and could all do with a reality-check or three from the uninvolved.

If you can bear to look, check out: Jan Goossenaerts,
WP:Articles for deletion/Jan Goossenaerts,
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject World's Oldest People#Might wanna Wake Up!,
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject World's Oldest People#Deletion recommendations,
WP:FTN#Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2010-01-04/Longevity myths, and
assorted editor's contribution histories and talk pages, including my own. I'm not without blame here, although I think mine are some of the lesser offenses against civil discourse.

Help! David in DC (talk) 20:01, 8 November 2010 (UTC)