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July 17

Is the "schwa" completely absent from Jamaican English

Vowels of Jamaican Patois. from Harry (2006:128)

I notice that Jamaicans pronounce definite vowel sounds where British and American speakers would reduce this to a schwa. I have found some [websites that support this observation]. This made me wonder - is Jamaican English completely schwa free? Does this extend to other Caribbean accents? -- Q Chris (talk) 10:40, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Our Jamaican Patois article has a vowel chart in it without a schwa. I don't exactly have access to a large number of speakers (or any number, for that matter) so I can't completely verify this, but it's possible.  dalahäst ^{(let's talk!)} 03:12, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

There is a difference between Jamaican Patois, which is an English-based creole not mutually intelligible with English, and the more and less standard varieties of Jamaican English. There is a continuum between the two. The pure patois only has the common Latin-style five vowel system, with no schwa, but it does have syllabic consonants, as the /l/ in bottle, which is often analyzed as being a schwa plus /l/. I have heard Jamaicans in NYC whose only pure vowels are the five of the chart. μηδείς (talk) 03:30, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

• A related question: Does that mean that speakers of Jamaican English or Jamaican Patois don't have any form of Vowel reduction at all, or do they use some other vowel than the schwa as the target vowel when reducing. I ask because many dialects of American English use the schwi more than a true schwa as a reduced vowel, and I was wondering if one of the above noted vowels served the same purpose of as the schwa does in terms of vowel reduction. --Jayron32 12:41, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

"Schwi"? Brilliant! To answer your question, it can't just be a lack of vowel reduction, or they would have the 11 or so vowels of seat, sit, set, sate, sat, salsa, sought, soak, soot, suit and sup. It has to be a reanalysis as is typical in creolization. You can hear that Jamaican English speakers do not reduced the vowel in the simple regular past tense -ed. Listen to this clip where one Jamaican English speaker says /wantɛd/ for wanted where I would say /wʌntɨd/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIg2SOQPzvM&feature=related. I don't have a source or any expertise in the area, perhaps someone else can give details. μηδείς (talk) 17:28, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Margareta Hasbjörnsdatter

Is the name Margareta Hasbjörnsdatter in its Old Norse form? --The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 18:32, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

No. Datter is the modern Danish and Norwegian form (dotter in Nynorsk). The old Norse would be dóttir. V85 (talk) 19:53, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

How about the Margareta part and Hasbjörns part?--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 20:14, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Could someone translate the name into its Old Norse form and Danish form? --The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 20:16, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Swedish "Hasbjörn" is nearly identical in Danish—Hasbjørn. "Margareta" is already close, too; the Danish form is Margrethe (and the Norwegian form, if you care, is Margrete), so in the Danish form we'd have Margrethe Hasbjørnsdatter. Strictly speaking, Icelandic is not the same as Old Norse, but it is in most respects quite close; there, the name would be Margrét Ásbjörn. Note that "Hasbjörn" appears to be itself a modification of Åsbjörn / Aasbjørn / etc, while only the original Ásbjörn form seems to exist in Icelandic, and thus it is almost certainly the form that would have appeared in Old Norse as well; thus I would expect Margrét Ásbjörnsdóttir.  dalahäst ^{(let's talk!)} 02:49, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Klingon question

How would you say "As if I wouldn't know!" in Klingon? JIP | Talk 20:18, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't even know what that means in English. Looie496 (talk) 03:15, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

It would mean "Of course I know!" KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 07:55, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Three minutes of research with a 1992 book yields jISovbe'chugh as a partial translation... AnonMoos (talk) 04:26, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Probably something like "We will see if you still think I am ignorant when your head hangs from my belt." Gandalf61 (talk) 14:29, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

July 18

Secret Policeman's Ball

I have often wondered about this triviality, but is Monty Python's Secret Policeman's Ball a ball for secret police or a secret ball for police? I doubt this will ever be answered, but does anyone have any clues? KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 07:53, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

It's the former: the "secret police" being the KGB, Securitate, etc., whose activities they were opposing. Henry^Flower 08:28, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't think that that's the whole of the answer. That was the motivation for the show, certainly, but to say that that is the meaning rejects the ambiguity, which is where the comedy comes from. --ColinFine (talk) 11:38, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, don't forget The Secret Policeman's Other Ball.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 12:19, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Also, it had nothing to do with Monty Python specifically - John Cleese was one of the creators, but it wasn't a Monty Python production. Adam Bishop (talk) 12:28, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Indeed: it might be nearer the mark to say it's "Amnesty International's Secret Policeman's Ball". --TammyMoet (talk) 15:02, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

I always figured they were referring to some officer's unadvertised third testicle. μηδείς (talk) 17:01, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, many secret police do seem to have a lot of balls, what with dragging people off without warrants and such. StuRat (talk) 21:27, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

I always thought that it was a play on the idea that the police hold Ball (dance) to which they sell tickets. And sometimes you can buy the tickets to avoid being arrested for a minor crime. Search for the paragraph that starts ""If I take a slow-mo look at what my thought-processes must have been in that nano-second between Cleese's words and my interjection, they were probably twofold:". So I would have thought it would have been a ball for secret police. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 04:10, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Agree with CambridgeBay above. "Buying a ticket to the policeman's ball" was a euphemism for paying a bribe to the police. According to this source it was well known in the US too. Of course, there are lots of jokes around the obvious double entendre such as; "Would you like a ticket for the policeman's ball? - it's not a dance, it's a raffle!" Boom, boom! Alansplodge (talk) 17:52, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Surname HIEGER / HIGER (jewish background)

The surname HIEGER / HIGER can be found in jewish genealogy mainly in (K&K) Austria (Galicia etc.). Any indications, what the meaning of the name is? "hige" in Jiddish means "a person from here". Are there any other suggestions? Hebrew, perhaps? Grey Geezer 08:17, 18 July 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grey Geezer (talk • contribs)

Chinese social dancing

In Chinese, what is an idiomatic way to request a dance at a social/ballroom dance? I can literally translate "Would you like to dance?" as "想跳吗？" or something like that, but I don't how idiomatic that is.

More generally, if anyone could suggest a source for any social-dance-related vocabulary, example dialogs, or any other related material, I would be very grateful.

Thank you Rotcaeroib (talk) 15:59, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

　"想跳吗？" sounds ilke (and is quite literally) "wanna jump?"! More usually seen is "我可以请你跳这支舞吗？" or "我能请你跳这支舞吗？", or "我能和你跳这支舞吗？" which is something like "May I have the next dance with you?" --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 13:31, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Wonderful, thank you very much! This is very helpful (and "支" is a particularly useful bit to know). I suppose the brevity of my initial guess was influenced by my experience in contra dancing where there's such a short time for everyone to rush around and find the next partner that most of the time it's just raised eyebrows and an extended hand. Anyway, thank you again! Rotcaeroib (talk) 21:52, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Largest alphabet

The Ubykh alphabet

What's the largest alphabet? --146.7.96.200 (talk) 19:08, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Unicode. Looie496 (talk) 19:20, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Depends on your definition. Could be Ethiopic script if you count each separate consonant+vowel combination as a "letter"... AnonMoos (talk) 19:23, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Again depending on definition, Devanagari has over 1300 possible symbols counting conjuncts, ligatures, independent vowels, etc.--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 20:11, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Please define your terms. Devanagari and the Ethiopic script are abugidas. To the right is an Ubykh language alphabet. It has 84 native consonants and two vowels. μηδείς (talk) 21:48, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

From Abugida: "(In less formal treatments, all three systems are commonly called alphabets.)" -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 22:21, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

And that's why I said "define your terms." μηδείς (talk) 22:51, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

The terms "Abugida" and "Abjad" (in the meaning used on the Abjad article, as opposed to its real meaning) were almost unknown until a little more than 15 years ago, but that doesn't prevent some people (mostly not actual linguists, from what I can tell) from running around Wikipedia and demanding that the word "alphabet" be used only in a very narrow sense somewhat contradictory to its usual and customary meaning. I really do not find this behavior to be constructive at all. Furthermore, if the word "Abugida" applies equally to both Devanagari and Ethopic script, this term would appear to be fairly worthless for the meaningful classification of writing systems, since Devanagari and Ethiopic script have divergent characteristics in several respects... AnonMoos (talk) 01:29, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

No editor has demanded that the IP use that editor's own favorite sense of the word, has one? A request that the IP define his terms if he wants a definitive answer is hardly out of line. Three different users have mentioned the need for a defined question in their answer now. And prior to calling them abugidas, they were called syllabaries, for quite some time longer than 15 years. μηδείς (talk) 05:41, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, I wonder why article Abjad is used for a neologism which was almost completely unknown until a little more than 15 years ago, while the long-established meaning of the word "Abjad" in English has been fobbed off into Abjad numeral. And periodically, there are people running around Wikipedia demanding that articles like "Arabic alphabet" be renamed to "Arabic abjad". I don't find either of these phenomena to be too useful... AnonMoos (talk) 15:38, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Probably the International Phonetic Alphabet, which is designed to have unique symbols for all possible speech sounds in human languages. 184.147.121.192 (talk) 15:06, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

I definitely think that a clear definition of alphabet is required to answer this question with some sort of accuracy. If alphabet means writing system, I'd guess Chinese. Someone suggest Unicode and someone else the IPA, but I would personally object to both: Unicode isn't a single alphabet, but a combination of all the writing systems in the world (at least that's the aim), and IPA, as far as I know, isn't the main writing system for any living language, although some of its symbols are used by some languages. Do ligatures count? I would say either way would be acceptable, but it needs to be defined. Are alphabets only those writing systems that seek to reproduce speach by placing signs in phonemic order (i.e. do Abjads count)? (So that Devanagari and Thai script don't count, since they put some vowel sounds in front of the consonant, although the sound is pronounced after it? Also, it would depend on how we choose to define letters, some Latin alphabets, such as the Hungarian alphabet, also define digraphs and trigraphs, when these represent a single sound, as a separate letter, distinct from its constituent letters, whereas others do not (e.g. Hungarian dz is considered a single letter, alphabetically after D, whereas English sh is considered two separate letters that represent a single sound). There can be many correct answers, depending on how alphabet is defined. V85 (talk) 16:29, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Have to agree with the point on Chinese, had thought of that when the thread was begun. μηδείς (talk) 16:37, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

July 19

Why do some men lisp

Why do so many gay men have lisps? Is it genetic? cultural? a learned behavior? Also what is it's history? Was there one man who had it and the gay community identified with him and adopted, it or was it simply a cultural way to identify other gay men? I am curious as to its cultural origins and why it is so prevalent in both life and the media.--Found5dollar (talk) 01:35, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

It is a Shibboleth. A shibboleth is a cultural or linguistic trait that marks a person as a member of a particular culture. The so-called "gay lisp" isn't genetic or otherwise linked to a person's sexual orientation. Many homosexual people around the world speak without a lisp, while many straight people have one. Some dialects of other languages are even marked by lisps themselves, such as Castillian Spanish. I am speculating a bit here, but the so-called lisp likely developed as a sign of effeminancy. Of cource, not all gay men are effeminate, and not all effeminate men are gay. But I suspect that the connection has something to do with that. --Jayron32 01:45, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

(And here I thought Shibboleth was one of Yog-Sothoth's buddies!) I would be interested to know at what point the lisp became prevalent in the gay community; somewhere in the 1980s, perhaps? It's worth noting that many lisps are caused by certain genetic or physiological traits. This, however, is not one of them. Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 01:48, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. The lisp was indicative of gay culture well before the 1980s, I'm pretty sure. I seem to remember an episode of All in the Family where Archie learns that a longtime friend of his was actually gay. A major part of the plot involved Archie accusing a friend of Meathead as being gay, based on his stereotypical gay mannerisms and lispy speech. The gotcha moment comes when Archies masculine friend turns out to be gay, and Meathead's friend turns out to be straight. So, at least in the 1970s the stereotype was commonplace enough that a sitcom could incorporate it easily. --Jayron32 01:56, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

P.S. Looking at List of All in the Family episodes it was season 1, episode 5 "Judging Books by Covers", originally aired February 9, 1971. It's been some time since I have seen the episode (indeed, it originally aired before I was born), but someone could check it out to see if Meathead's friend does lisp or not. --Jayron32 02:01, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

A distinction should be made between when people first lisped in private and in public. Any public indication of homosexuality was likely to have gotten people killed until relatively recently, so it would have only occurred out of the public eye. StuRat (talk) 02:04, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Camp (style) may have something to add, going back to a 1909 reference. --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:58, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes it's a kind of shibboleth and affected, which in extreme cases can extend to full-fledged secret languages like Polari, Gayle, or Swardspeak (which themselves are usually extremely camp; and despite original intentions, were more commonly used for gossiping undetected). It's also a form of rebellion in a way, as lisping, swishing, hysterics, and camp are highly exaggerated versions of qualities traditionally perceived to be feminine—hence the complete opposite of the masculinity demanded of effeminate gay men, and an "in-your-face nyah nyah I'm sick of pretending to be what you want me to be so ah, shaddap you face" depiction of the stereotype expected. See Lavender linguistics and Swish (slang).

And no, it's not pancultural in gay communities in other countries, though there are cultural equivalents. Here in the Philippines for example, "camp" effeminate gay men do not lisp, they instead deliberately substitute the "harder" vowels and consonants (I, U, P, B, and Z) with the "soft" vowels and consonants (E, O, F, V, and S/Sh respectively) and then lengthening the syllables or turning them into diphthongs. e.g. Lalaki (man), pronounced exactly as spelled, would instead be pronounced Lahlahkweh. Pabango (perfume) would become Favangow, etc. -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 04:04, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

I am curious, is this not characteristic of women's speech? There is a common phenomenon in many world languages for women's speech to have its own defining characteristics. See these google results [1], ignoring the ones on "women's speeches". Unfortunately, there does not seem to be a wikipedia article on the phonology of women's speech as exemplified in various languages. Yet see the comments on phonology and vocabulary in Language_and_gender. μηδείς (talk) 05:01, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Only in that it's pitched higher than in usual male speech and has freer range in terms of intonation (e.g. squealing is acceptable). And even at that, it's a highly exaggerated version. There are really no differences in the way men and women here speak that I can think of, neither in phonology nor vocabulary. Even our pronouns are all completely gender-neutral. On an interesting note, it's pretty similar to the way native anglophones usually mispronounce our vowels (e.g. pronouncing 'a' as in cat rather than 'a' as in father, or ignoring glottal stops and mangling stresses and whatnot).-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 05:51, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

I am sorry, but this has got to be some of the worst speculation I have read at wikipedia. First, the Spanish use of the 'th' sound in 'thin' for the sound spelt with the letters z and c before i and e has absolutely nothing to do with lisping phonologically or historically--it's simply a natural linguistic development from ts to th. See Castilian 'lisp' Second, lisping is a very rare activity among actively homosexual males. It is simply one sign which, due to its obviousness, has been assigned via confirmation bias by society to active homosexuals in general. If anything, this discussion should be held in the context of transvestism and transexualism--even then it would be misinformed--but that is a very different subject from homosexuality. μηδείς (talk) 04:49, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Stephen Sondheim seemed to make some kind of connection between Ceceo and "gay lisp" in the song The Boy From..., but purely for comedy value... AnonMoos (talk) 15:34, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

But the OP is not exactly asking if all or even if a majority of gay men speak with a lisp (which is obviously not the case), but on why it seems to be prevalent in a visible subset of effeminate gay men given that it doesn't seem to be intrinsic.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 01:37, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

There's a lot of conjecture in this answer. Permit me to throw in some more! There's the Polari slang language to throw in here, too, which was predominately spoken amongst gay men via theatre and showbiz circles, which are notoriously more likely to be 'camp' than the general population. Throw in too the fact that one of the first opportunities for the general population, gay or straight, to hear Polari was through the radio characters Julian and Sandy, who spoke with a highly affected camp and lisp style. If there's anything here, it's Medeis' theory above about "confirmation bias" via another means. We've no idea how gay men spoke to each other from industrial northern England. We do know, through countless television programmes and films, how gay men from high society, literature and politics spoke, and as such I wouldn't be surprised if this somehow "trained" gay people in this country to talk. How or why there's a patten across the world of this style of speaking is a flaw in my theory, but that's for someone else to speculate over ;) doktorb _words^deeds 05:23, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Isn't a lisp childish rather than effeminate? Bus stop (talk) 21:41, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

A few quick points. There are different types of behavior called lisping. Certain developmental issues such as l/r>w and s>th are described as lisps. There is also the whispering type speech patterns of certain females such as Marilyn Monroe and Jayne Mansfield which when used by men is described as lisping. Speech patterns are acquired, so one can learn to speak in a hushed voice. But speech patterns are not necessarily acquired consciously, so to describe them as affected in all cases is untrue. There are many different phenomena dealing with sexual behavior with many different causes. It is possible for males to have feminized brains and females to have masculinized brains. This is a different matter from sexual orientation. Most people who engage in homosexual behavior do not identify with the opposite sex or adopt its characteristics--but those who do are more obvious and hence are associated in the public mind with what they think is typical homosexuality. Most people homosexual or bisexual people "pass" however. As for Spanish, English speakers perception of ceceo is colored by our expectations from English as it is influenced by French. We expect c before i and e to make an s sound. We find it odd when Spaniards pronounce it as th. But this the older sound of c/z in Spanish was like that of z in Italian. In SApanish, the ts sound of these letters developed into th according to a normal process of phonological change. The sound spelt with s is still an s, although it may approach what seems like an sh sound in some dialects to English speakers. Foreigners and homosexuals and other minorities make some people uncomfortable, and this results often in comedy. Scientific study leads to other reactions. μηδείς (talk) 22:05, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm not persuaded that any speech issue other than substituting /θ/ and /ð/ for /s/ and /z/ (or other deformations of /s/ and /z/) is typically specifically called a lisp. Wikipedia's own lisp article states that a lisp involves substitutions of sibilants (interdentally, laterally, or palatally) and the OED defines a lisp as "To speak with that defect of utterance which consists in substituting for /s/ and /z/ sounds approaching /θ/ and /ð/ ; either by reason of a defect in the organs of speech or as an affectation. Also, loosely, to speak with child-like utterance, falteringly or imperfectly." (The /w/ for /r/ subsitution is (illogically) called rhotacism (although that article states some speech therapists prefer the more logical de-rhotacization). The use in the term gay lisp seems to very much be a (loose) reference to the loose sense of "speak with child-like utterance, falteringly or imperfectly" rather than a specific defect of the sibilants to my ears, though apparently - as per the article - others feel differently. Julian and Sandy mentioned above - who are the ur-stereotypes of British gay speech - were indisputably camp and used a lot of polari, but neither had anything resembling a deformed sibilant. (Clips are available on Youtube). What is distinctive is the over-enunciation, the drawing out of long vowels and the high register. If anything, the voice is overly emphatic, like a hammy actor rolling the words, rather than "faltering or imperfect". Valiantis (talk) 23:11, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

To clarify my own comment, Medeis appears to be correct (based on a little googling) that many people use the term "lisp" to refer to the /w/ for /r/ defect, though this seems a misuse to my mind, though I guess usage trumps etymology. I say etymology as the cognate German and Dutch words lispeln and lispelen both specifically refer to mispronouning sibilants as dentals [2] [3]. The figure in British culture who I'd associate lisping with would be the 18th Century fop, or any similar portrait of the aristocracy. (They would also often exhibit rhotacism). Fops might certainly be viewed as effeminate and clearly there is an overlap between effeminacy and some traditional views of gayness. The link beween lisping, foppishness and effeminacy seems to be long established (predating the term "fop" in its current sense indeed). Shakespeare refers to "lisping hawthorn-buds, that come like women in men's apparel" in The Merry Wives of Windsor and other uses of the word lisp in his works [4] also suggest effeminacy and/or an excess of concern with appearance and fashion (especially, it would seem French fashion and manners). There does seem to be a whole complex of prejudices tied up with lisping and they all map onto what constitutes the stereotype of homosexuality in British culture (effeminacy, decadence, excessive concern with appearance and manners, "foreignness"). Italians [5] and Frenchmen [6] - typically portrayed as effeminate in British culture - are often described as "lisping" - illogically as (unlike Castilian) neither French nor Italian has a /θ/ in its phonology. Valiantis (talk) 23:57, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

I have to agree with you that I find the description of the (l/r)>w defect or dialect as a "lisp" unsatisfying. But I haven't been able to find a better name for it either. My big problem with describing the assumption of the opposite sex's speech patterns as "gay" is that "gay" is a term that originates in the 1950's (so far as I can tell) and is hugely anachronistic, political, and "now"centric. I prefer a view of humanity which doesn't assume that what is familiar to people born in the West since theAssassination of Buckwheat by John David Stutts is the entirety of history of mankind. μηδείς (talk) 22:18, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Not sure if the comment about the issue of assuming the opposite sex's speech pattern as "gay" is addressed to me or to the discussion in general. I'm aware of the historicity of the word "gay". I also didn't express any opinion as to whether "lisping" was typical of female speech in English. In fact, I would suggest that it's not typical of English female speech generally, but might be used by some women to give an impression of childishness for the purposes of sexual allure, which you allude to above - and which Shakespeare has Hamlet allude to (in one of the quotes I linked to above) in his "to a nunnery" speech - and which is a whole other discussion! However, there is clearly a perceived connection between lisping and effeminacy (or perhaps I should say "unmanliness") which seems independent of the suggestion that lisping is adopting a specifically female mode of speech. I feel I'm safe using the term "effeminate" in a discussion going back to at leats Shakespeare's time as, according the to the OED the term dates back to the 15th C, though it initially carried both its current sense and now obsolete competing senses of "soft", "voluptuous", "tender" and even - as a translation of the Latin uxorius - "devoted to women"). Homosexual men (and I'm aware that's another term that has a historical limit) are rightly or wrongly typically depicted as effeminate in recent (e.g. 20th C) Anglophone culture. However, as I commented above the archetypical British camp voice does not lisp either in the /θ/ for /s/ sense or in the child-like, faltering or imperfect utterance sense. Valiantis (talk) 03:54, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

I segued from a direct response to you to a general one. It was the OP who started the thread who use the word gay. Regarding lisping, although it has been about a year since I watched the Best of Ernie Kovacs, whose Dovetonsils character I think did actually lisp, gay men almost never do in the sense of Thindy Brady. The phenomenon in modern English is that of a hushed (whispered) feminized voice, not a confusion of s/th. μηδείς (talk) 04:08, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

The lisp stereotype was certainly already well-established by the 1950s, as this clip of Ernie Kovacs as "Percy Dovetonsils" shows.[7] It's not a real "strong" lisp, but it's there - along with making no attemp to hide the character's orientation. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:38, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Again I have to emphasize that there is a difference between men's and women's speech in many, if not all languages. Consider the falsetto voice of the traditional Japanese woman and the difference in vocabulary (the first person atashi, vs. watashi or boku), the apocope and "jalado" typical of Mexican males, or the difference between men's and women's speech in the Muskogean Koasati language of the American South East, documented by Mary R. Haas in 1944, where words which end in nasal vowels in women's speech end in s in the speech of men, and so forth. The phenomenon of certain men and women adopting the speech patterns of the opposite sex is hardly limited to the modern world of the 1950's in the West. It is attested in classical cultures, and attested in the neolithic peoples of Siberia and the Americas. See shamanism and berdache. Lev Shternberg documents men living as women (by dress and speech) among the Nivkh people in his classic work, The Social Organization of the Gilyak (Anthropological Papers of the American Museum of Natural History). μηδείς (talk) 04:16, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Old thread, but I thought I should share this. Last night, I was watching a Hebrew language film. In the film there was a character of the stereotypical gay hairdresser persuasion, and he clearly had the "lisp" discussed above. I find it very interesting that the speech attributes have actually managed to transcend language barriers within (presumably) just a couple generations of it becoming prominent in the Anglosphere. Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 01:33, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Are you literally saying he pronounced his esses as tee aitches, or just that he spoke effeminately? μηδείς (talk) 04:28, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, there were definitely some dental fricatives where there otherwise would have been alveolar sibilants (and possibly palato-alveolar sibilants as well, though I couldn't swear to that). Generic effeminacy in articulation and such would be understandable, maybe even expected, but this was essentially the same lisp that you would hear among English speakers who have it. Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 06:29, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

correct form

• In which day this area remain closed?
• Which day this area remain closed?

Which one should I use in both spoken and written English? Thanks--180.234.35.27 (talk) 09:54, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Neither. Try "On which day will this area close ?" (if it's currently open) or "Until which day will this area remain closed ?" (if it's currently closed). Note that the "On which day" part sounds a bit formal, as does "remain closed", and in casual speech you might just say "When will it close ?"/"When will it open ?" or "When does it close ?"/"When does it open ?". StuRat (talk) 10:01, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Psst. I think you meant "remain", not "remained". :-) Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 10:05, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, fixed. StuRat (talk) 10:08, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree with StuRat. Both of those sentences are poor English. However, the second option should be "Until which day will this area remain closed?". But depending on what you're actually trying to say, something different again might be better. Can you tell us what your original sentence was, in the language you first thought of it, please? Thanks. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:07, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

I guess that the idiomatic English version of what you want to say is "Which days is this area closed (on)?" But that has to be a guess, because I don't know the context.

Particular points I can make, though are:

• "Which day" is grammatical, but strongly suggests that you are asking about exactly one day: if it might be more than one day, then "Which days" would be more normal.
• English speakers do not use "in" with "day" except in some special meanings. "On" is what you almost certainly want; but for your probable meaning "on" is optional. Also, colloquially, it can come at the end, though many would not accept that in formal use.
• "Remain closed" is not a common phrase, and if used it would imply that this was contrary to expectations. If you just mean "does not open today" then "be closed" (i.e. "is closed" or "are closed" or "will be closed") would be more normal.
• In any case, your verb "remain" would require a plural subject, and would have to be "remains" with the singular subject "this area". --ColinFine (talk) 14:57, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

I read the intended meaning as "which day or days of the week is the area closed?" to which an answer might be "Mondays". If this is the case, I suggest "On which day(s) is this area closed?" Bazza (talk) 15:41, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Do you speak Bangla? If you tell us what you want to say in your native language we may be able to translate it for you. See this website: http://translate.google.com/?hl=en&tab=wT#bn%7Cen%7C μηδείς (talk) 18:00, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Not sure that a machine translation would help, as what they started with rather already looks like one. When I did a round trip translation from English to Bengali and back, at that site, I get this nonsense: "Days of the close of this area?". StuRat (talk) 18:18, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

I am sure that knowing what he actually wanted to say is his own language can't hurt, even if I can only count to ten in Bangla. Next time I want to tell someone to rely solely on a machine translation I will remember to make that point myself. μηδείς (talk) 20:32, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Machine did not show me the proper translation of above mentioned statements. It showed me wierd meaning This area is never closed...?. I think I'll use:

• On which day will this area close ? (if it's currently open). Actually, it was my point.
• Until which day will this area remain closed ? (if it's currently closed)

Some areas in my region are usually remain closed on specific days(is there anything wrong with this statement?). I visited one of those areas and then questions raised in my mind. Thanks StuRat.--180.234.238.160 (talk) 15:33, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Those two sentences are grammatically acceptable as you have given them, and you should feel free to use them as you have written them.

But using the word "what" instead of which would sound better to my ear because you are not implying any contrast or choice of days, just requesting simple information. (On the other hand you might ask, "On which days will the area be closed?" if you expected to be given a list of days.)

It might also be better for the second sentence to ask, "On what day will this area reopen?"

Finally, in informal speech, you would sound more natural if you moved the prepositions to the end: "What day will this area close on?" "What day will this area reopen on?" or you can just omit the prepositions. "What day will this area close?" is perfectly acceptable.

There was indeed a problem with Some areas in my region are usually remain closed on specific days. You have two main verbs, "are" and "remain" and can only have one main verb. You would say either Some areas in my region are usually closed on specific days or Some areas in my region usually remain closed on specific days.μηδείς (talk) 16:27, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Why do Europeans speak American so poorly?

Here's a perfect example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZXcRqFmFa8 Can anyone transcribe it? μηδείς (talk) 23:23, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Why can't Americans speak English at all? HiLo48 (talk) 23:47, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

User:Medeis has linked to an excerpt of an Italian comedian doing a parody of American English. I don't think there's a legitimate question here, beyond the obvious, that for most Europeans, English is a second language. --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:54, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

It’s not surpring that non-anglophones have trouble picking up what Americans say, when anglophones sometimes struggle to understand them. Let me use Revenge (TV series) as an example. I always hear clearly what the Graysons (Victoria, Conrad, Daniel, Charlotte) say. Jack, Tyler and Ashley are all OK. Nolan is usually OK but he can mumble a bit sometimes. But the two I have the greatest difficulty understanding are Emily (the real Amanda), and most particularly Declan. I hear them saying ... something ... but I often have literally no idea what they said, because they both (Declan more than Emily, but she's bad enough) can’t seem to wait to get their words out, almost before they’ve opened their mouths. The high pitch of both their voices (again, Declan wins hands-down here) doesn’t help either with my high-end hearing loss. And the camera is often not on their faces as they're speaking, which immediately disenfranchises a whole lot of viewers with hearing issues who depend on lip reading to enhance their understanding. But my partner, whose hearing is perfect, has the same problem with these two actors, and he's lived in the USA and Canada for significant periods. (Is this an unsigned fragment of an interrupted comment by JackofOz?)

Ahem. The actress who plays Emily (the real Amanda) is Canadian. And the actor playing Declan is using an accent which is not his own, attempting one supposedly similar to the "locals" in the Hamptons. It's not his natural accent. 69.62.243.48 (talk) 02:08, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

She plays an American. Viewers are invited to believe she's American. For the purposes of this question, she is effectively an American. And Declan: whether that's how Connor Paolo normally speaks or not is not the point. I know only what I see and hear of this American actor portraying an American subject, 95% of whose utterances are lost on me. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 23:21, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Here he comes through clearly, but that’s a staged interview, which is not how we mostly see actors. Here's some stuff about the accent he adopted for the show. But regardless of the accent, if an actor does not make himself comprehensible to the audience, he really needs to work on that. He can't use it as an excuse for a basic failure of communication, as you seem to be allowing him to do. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 23:33, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

There are many other examples of what I call a cutesy-girly voice that a lot of younger-end American actresses have (or affect), and it’s mostly associated with speaking almost too quickly for people who don’t spend their lives in the company of such people to understand with comfort. I previously mentioned the film The Social Network, which I bought on DVD, and I’m glad I did, because had I seen it at the cinema I’d have been ripped off because I understood hardly anything anyone said, mainly because they all spoke much too fast. Five minutes into the DVD, I had to stop, go back to the start, put the subtitles on and try again. Even then, some of what they were talking about was lost on me, but at least I knew what words they were using. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 00:03, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

If any of you had bothered to read the video description, you would have seen that this is a parody, it's a song that's made up entirely of gibberish. So, while it sounds like English, it is actually just a collection of random sounds. Since the lyrics are gibberish, there are no proper lyrics, but, obviously, people have attempted to find some, as in this video. V85 (talk) 00:17, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I, for one, did "bother to read" the video description, and I made my comments because I believe they are apposite to the topic. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 00:58, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

There is also this video of what some Brits think American English sounds like. Like the video Μηδείς posted above, it is not intended to contain actual English, so there is little point in transcribing it (though some words were obviously based off, or copied from, real words, like "today" and "yeah"). In short, I suppose this kind of language-impression is not too different from the way Chinese is often characterized by English speakers as "ching chong aaahhh" or whatever.  dalahäst ^{(let's talk!)} 00:11, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. There are Europeans who speak almost perfect American.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 00:48, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Actually, there's just as wide a difference between the standard Spanish of Spain and French of France and the American dialects of those languages as there is between average American and Received Pronunciation, and apparently even more between the Portuguese of Portugal and Brazil, to the point that the last are taught as separate standards. Some Spanish of the Americas is such as colloquial Puerto Rican and Dominican might as well be Geordie. μηδείς (talk) 02:42, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

There's your answer then. Dialects. And I know hence the "almost". The point was you calling American English, "American", as if it's a completely different language. Were you even including the UK when you said "European"? It's simply because it's a second language to most continental Europeans. In the same way that most Americans speak French, German, Italian, Japanese, Chinese, or Spanish quite badly, if at all. -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 06:36, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I meant what I said and I said what I meant. The section title was considered and ironic. I was indeed including Brits as Europeans, since had Dalahäst not posted skwerl, I would have done so as my followup. As for your contention that Americans speak other languages badly, that is pure OR. Children forced to take a language in school are one thing. And people who want to learn a foreign language may be a small group. But those who do make the effort fare no worse than, say, Yorkshiremen.μηδείς (talk) 21:30, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Likewise with your contention that Europeans speak "American" badly. :P -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 23:31, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

You seem totally oblivious to irony. The video is a parody, the "badly" refers to the fact that the words are not real words--the performance itself is actually quite good. Please note that in not a single one of my comments here have I actually "contended" that Europeans do anything bad—but plenty of others have complained about Americans. The purpose of the thread was to elicit comments and information on the video itself and doubletalk and impressions of languages in general. Given the upset asking the titular question seems to have caused some people, I suggest we all consider how effing insulting it is when question are asked such as "Why do Americans (or Israelis, or gays)," for example all "do X?" Questions like this, while they are probably 50% trolling, are posed like that here all the time, and answered in all seriousness. μηδείς (talk) 19:22, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Medeis, I think the internet is demonstrating its poor capacity to transmit irony here. I appreciate what you have tried here; I shan't condone the posting of a misleading question, but I am impressed. Please accept my sincere apologies for our earlier disagreement elsewhere. AlexTiefling (talk) 20:03, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

I vaguely remember something and I am sure I was provocative, so apology accepted and reciprocated but not necessary on your part. Regarding the irony of the title, I thought it was entirely explained by watching the video I linked to. I was indeed interested in the "lyrics" and found the best version of "them" here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EsTeKt134o μηδείς (talk) 21:47, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I did misread it as an entirely serious question, and you have to admit it's quite inflammatory if it was. Anyway, thanks for the explanation. Like AlexTiefling says, irony does not translate well into text (at least not without emoticons, lol). I apologize as well.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 01:45, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, thanks and mine in return if I upset you, but apologies and upset are not what I am looking for. I really did expect people to watch the video and offer a "transcription". I think Celentano's video really is quite a brilliant bit of impressionistic comparative linguistics. I learnerd Spanish as a child. When my familiy moved back to the North East after we had lived in the Texas area and the Caribbean I remember crying because people did not understand half of what I said to them. Then, when I worked as a cook and waitress after I moved out of the house I spent a long time working, and six months living with Mexican immigrants, to the point of dreaming in Spanish, and asking people, "How you say in Inglish?" At one point I asked some of my Mexican friends what they thought it sounded like when they listened to peopel speaking (American) English. I told them Spanish speakers sounded like they were saying "diga-diga-diga." My best friend said AMericans say "ger-ger-ger." From a Spanish standpoint that makes sense to me, but it's not very informative from a British to American viewpoint--unless you consider the rhotacism. (For Brits, if you want to know what Americans think of your speech, watch the Monty Python Upper-Class Twit sketches.) So I was very impressed when I heard the Prisencolinensinainciusol video. I really would like to know, are there other such videos by speakers of other languages besides Italian and the British video "skwerl."? μηδείς (talk) 02:44, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

The video I posted at the top of the thread is of the song Prisencolinensinainciusol by Adriano Celentano. I found it a strikingly good imitation of American, although it does vary between a Texas accent and SAE, and the blonde sounds much more like Marlene Dietrich than an American. μηδείς (talk) 02:42, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I sometimes wonder whether ability to speak the target language impairs ability to generate convincing gibberish "in" that language. —Tamfang (talk) 07:16, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree. I have noticed that once I learn a foreign language it loses its mysterious foreignness. I was just watching Eartha Kitt sing C'est si bon with someone and only realized after the song was half over that they couldn't understand what she was saying because it wasn't English.

Actually, Europeans speak American so poorly because manifest destiny convinced them that they wouldn't have to learn it. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 08:29, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

lulz.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 11:54, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

? --Michael Fleischhacker (talk) 12:12, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I guess he is referring to the indigenous languages of the Americas -- Q Chris (talk) 12:51, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I am curious if anyone can name any films of the 30's and 40's that have doubletalk in them. I remember a scene from one with a guy giving directions at an information desk, but haven't been able to track it down. μηδείς (talk) 19:22, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Regarding your question of 'similar skits', I thought of this skit made by a group of Norwegian comedians about the Danish language being incomprehensible to the extent that even the Danes can't use it to communicate with each other. The joke is that Norwegian and Danish languages are so close that one should be able to understand the other language without resorting to English, but here the 'Danish' they speak is complete gibberish, while (to the Norwegian listener) still retaining 'Danish qualities'.

Similarly, Norwegian comedian Harald Heide-Steen Jr. made this sketch where he speaks something that sounds like Sami language. (As some of the comments say: It's not Sami.) The joke is that he inserts the odd Norwegian phrase, such as Jahn Otto Johansen getting completely drunk and getting arrested. (Sami has some loans from Norwegian, especially when it comes to politics and government.) V85 (talk) 17:50, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Okay, that was hilarious. I know just enough Danish to know that some of the words (Kamelåså) were nonsense. The interesting thing with Danish compared to the rest of Scandinavian, English compared to German, Portuguese compared to Spanish, and Russian compared to the rest of Slavic is the reduction of unstressed vowels in the prior languages and the effect this has on mutual comprehensibility. For example, I can understand written Portuguese with no problem whatsoever, and have made myself clear to Portuguese immigrants to the US. But I find spoken Portuguese about as comprehensible as Dutch; that is, not at all. As for Russian, half the fun of it is learning how to (mis)pronounce it according to its spelling. Who could imagine that the word tongue, spellt Язык ('yazɨk'), is normaly pronounced ʲə'zɨk, except when it's pronounced ɪzɪ'kʲɛ or otherwise? μηδείς (talk) 02:48, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I used to consider Gaelic strange because the spelling and pronunciation seem to be totally divorced from each other. But then I realized English isn't really that different. Having been exposed to English since childhood, I've never fully appreciated the fact that English is really quite difficult for a non-native speaker. Anyway, no videos but I once saw a local comedian depict a German tourist. Lots of sounds like /f/, /ʒ/, /ʃ/, /ts/, /tz/, /ɔɪ/, /st/, /x/, /v/ and schwas interspersed with der, die, ja, nein etc. The humor being in the way he "Germanized" native words and phrases (usually by adding ge- or -en). It convincingly sounded German to our non-German ears, though they were mostly nonsense words.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 19:57, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

That reminds me of Vee heff miet hier in ze buildink! and

FUNEX?

SVFX.

FUNEM?

SVFM.

OK,LFMNX.

μηδείς (talk) 04:04, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

If they existed in the same universe it would go like this:

FUNEX?

Que?

-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 06:16, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

July 20

Russian

What is the equivalent of surgical technologist in russian? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.74.50.52 (talk) 03:22, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Google Translate gives this: хирургическая технолог--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 03:45, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Ugh! That's a feminine adjective juxtaposed with a masculine noun, which is known in academic circles as a "nyet-nyet". The correct adjective is хирургический. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 11:54, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I thought it was common knowledge that "nyet-nyet"s and a chuckle are all you get from Google Translate.--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 17:15, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Russian hospitals are organized differently from American ones, so there might not be an exact equivalent. Yandex gives two translations of "surgical technician": фельдшер хирургического отделения (physician assistant of the surgical department) and операционная сестра (operational nurse [literally sister]). Lesgles (talk) 13:43, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

beside or around?

A. As for my new apartment, it's in a great location beside the park. B. As for my new apartment, it's in a great location around the park. According to my answer key, the correct answer is A. Why is B wrong? Thank you. 203.240.243.100 (talk) 06:18, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, "around" could mean two things:

1) Encircling. It's unlikely that the apartment encircles the park.

2) Nearby. This might be correct, but it's rather vague. The potential for confusion with the first meaning is another reason to avoid this word. StuRat (talk) 06:27, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)One might write "there are numerous apartments around the park", but a single apartment must be in a single location, hence "beside the park", not around it. (The park could be around the apartment if the latter happened to be in the middle of the former.) Dbfirs 06:30, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Further to StuRat's answer above, I think pedants in the UK would consider the use of "around" in the sense of "nearby" or "on the perimeter of" to be incorrect, but the usage might be more common in the USA. Dbfirs 06:47, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

So, in the UK, you wouldn't say "I'll meet you somewhere around the entrance ?". StuRat (talk) 07:36, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

No it would be "by the entrance", or "near the entrance". On the other hand if you were both going to the park with no particular plans to meet you could say "I might see you around". -- Q Chris (talk) 08:04, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Well we might say "somewhere around the entrance" informally, especially if we meant one of many possible locations on the the perimeter of the entrance, but one wouldn't write it in a formal document. We'd be much more likely to say "somewhere near the entrance". Dbfirs 08:55, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

As an American I would cock my head like a confused dog if someone ever said "B". Around is not used in this way. "A" on the other hand is comprehensible though it sounds very British to me and would not be common. "Nearby to" or "nearby" or related expressions would be more expected. "I'll meet you somewhere around the entrance" is different than the use of around in the OP and might be heard.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 09:07, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Did you confuse A and B ? Also, what is "ns might be heard" ? StuRat (talk) 09:13, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Ugg, just a typo, fixed. Yes, I reversed them also fixed. I think I forgot to eat my Wheaties this morning (an expression that may not be familiar to non-Americans:-)--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 09:15, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Not familiar, but easily understood. (We might say "Weetabix".) I agree that "around the entrance" is a different usage, but I struggled to explain the difference (so I didn't). A British Estate Agent (Realtor in the USA?) would be more likely to say "overlooking the park" (even if only one small window had the required view). Dbfirs 11:39, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

In British English, beside the park and nearby, near or near to the park have different meanings. The former is next to, literally alongside, although not necessarily overlooking; the latter close to, in the vicinity of. We'd never say nearby to. Bazza (talk) 13:46, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

The issue arises due to a conflict in the implications of the words "location" and "around". A location is a specific place implicitly conceived of as unitary. The primary sense of around is surrounding, encompassing, enclosing. Using those senses, we cannot see the location of an apartment (basically, a street address) encompassing a park. Nevertheless you could interpret the words differently. The word around can be used to imply lack of specificity. He arrived around noon means close to noon, not before and after noon. As above, if you say you will meet someone around the park entrance, you are implying you will be within eyesight of the entrance, maybe at a nearby shop or bench. As for location, its unity is relative. One could say, in regards to New York City the best location to build a hotel is around Central Park.

Back to the original sentences and paraphrasing them, the first sentence is probably saying, "My new apartment is in a great location; my new apartment is beside the park." The second sentence could not work that way. You can't say "My new apartment is in a great location" (i.e., specific place) and "my new apartment is around the park" implying it either surrounds the park (impossible) or is somewhere near the park (i.e., non-specific place). That is either nonsense or a contradiction. Nevertheless, you can analyze the sentence to mean: "My new apartment is in a great location; the location is around the park." That might make sense if you had just said, "I couldn't stand the neighbourhood I just moved out of; so close to the dump it always stank." The trick with tests like these is always to choose the better answer. The first sentence raises no flags. The second option would only work if you made a whole lot of assumptions which simply weren't provided to you in evidence. μηδείς (talk) 17:03, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Song lyrics in Zulu: syllable division?

As I have no audio access to speakers of Zulu and haven't succeeded in puzzling out its pronunciation, I'd appreciate some guidance here on where the syllables break in the lyrics to Siyahamba:

Siyahamba ekukhanyeni kwenkos'

Thank you, Deborahjay (talk) 17:43, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I'll give it a go even though I don't know Zulu as such, as a South African familiar with our national anthem and hearing spoken Zulu quite often, this should be pretty accurate -

Siya|hamba eku|khan|yeni kwen|kos'

Roger (talk) 18:03, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I have studied Zulu. Zulu syllables end in vowels, nasals can be syllabic, penultimate syllables are long: si-ya-ha:-mba e-ku-kha-nye:-ni kwe-n-ko:s. The final s in the last word is due to the dropping of the final vowel. The phrase means "we-walk into-the-light of-the-lord". Clement M. Doke's hard to find Text-book of Zulu Grammar is the definitive reference of the Zulu language. The site http://isizulu.net/ is incredibly good, with one of the best interactive translating dictionaries of any language I have come across on line. μηδείς (talk) 18:50, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Sang this song in Sunday school in Norway in the 1980s. We used the syllable division Roger gives above (the -mba blending into the next e). Of course, that is not any proof as I doubt anyone who had taught it to anyone who taught it to me knew any Zulu... Jørgen (talk) 20:45, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

The only real problem with Roger's suggestion is that it is e-ku-kha-nye:-ni, not e-ku-khan-ye:-ni; it's a paltalized initial nye, not a final n followed by a y in the next syllable. For some reason he has only attempted some of the syllable breaks, not all. μηδείς (talk) 20:59, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Medeis, are you sure it's kwe-n-kos? I'm not sure about Zulu, but in Xhosa, the "n" in Class 5 nouns is never syllabic, so: kwe-nko-s(i). 67.158.4.158 (talk) 21:39, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, you are right, it's not syllabic, but it's not inherent to the root either, which is why I separated it, since the plural is amakhosi. Perhaps historically it's a contraction? I'll post a question on the forum at isiZulu.net μηδείς (talk) 22:08, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

No it's not inherent to the root; (not sure what you mean by "contraction"). The Class 5 prefix is iN-, where the "N" assimilates to the place of articulation of a following occlusive, and aspirated stops lose their aspiration when they're prenasalized. So //iN-khosi// -> inkosi. 67.158.4.158 (talk) 06:14, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Not that anyone cares, but I just remembered that I made a mistake: the iN- class is class number 7, not class number 5. Oops.67.158.4.158 (talk) 11:05, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

OP adds: I neglected to state in phrasing my query, that while the morphology aspects are relevant for understanding the text, my primary interest is phonologic - to learn and teach the song in my community. At least one local immigrant from South Africa speaks Afrikaans and others picked up a smattering of Zulu or Xhosa as children, but I'd rather take this opportunity to get the pronunciation right. Once I get past the syllable breaks, I can consult the IPA table on the Zulu language page. I'd also appreciate if anyone has a preferred rendition to recommend on YouTube. -- Thanks to you all, Deborahjay (talk) 08:22, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

The syllable breaks are: si-ya-ha:-mba e-ku-kha-nye:-ni kwe-nko:s, where the colons indicate a vowel lengthening rather more pronounced than you would expect in English. You can ignore the intervening discussion. I wouldn't worry too much about the syllable initial nasals from the viewpoint of an English speaker either; just say hamba and kwenkos as you would in English, with the n in kwenkos an ng sound, not a pure n. (The isiZulu.net website gives the IPA pronunciations if you want them, no need to figure it out from the article.) The only tricky consonants are the k's. The kh is an aspirated k identical to the standard initial English k as in kitchen, not like the ch sound of loch or Bach. The first intervocalic k in ekukhanyeni is the voiced implosive ɠ—an english g will be a reasonable substitution if you can't pronounce the [ɠ]. All the other k's are unaspirated as in Russian or the hard c in French or Spanish. μηδείς (talk) 18:32, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

PS, lengthened penultimate /e/ and /o/ followed by a high vowel ('i' or 'u') in the final syllable is raised from the usual [ɛ] and [ɔ] to [e] and [o]. This applies to the seond 'e' in ekukhanyeni and the 'o' in kwenkos. μηδείς (talk) 02:17, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

July 21

Translate Arabic(?)

What does the arabic text in [8] say? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.92.74.238 (talk) 15:47, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

I guess "Global Security Institute in Washington"? (With Washington spelled wrong.) I don't get it... Adam Bishop (talk) 16:29, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

"Washington" had the last two letters cut off because it didn't fit into the allotted space at the chosen fontsize, I guess.... AnonMoos (talk) 16:50, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

The Arabic text is not meant to be understood. 18% answer YES, there are too many foreigners, 82%, the too many foreigners, answer "معهد الأمن العالمي في واشنط. The author of it just put some Arabic text there, even he didn't understand it. OsmanRF34 (talk) 18:58, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Ah, the stupidity of racists. AlexTiefling (talk) 20:00, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't call it racist, given the exaggerated number of foreigners (82%!), I believe it's ironic. OsmanRF34 (talk) 13:12, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

July 22

Which is a mathematical term (geometry): period, stage, section, phase.

Sorry, my English is not perfect.

I tried to search the word "szakasz" in online Hungarian->English dictionaries. But I do not know which is the mathematical term (in geometry): period, stage, section, phase. This a part of a straight line, limited with 2 points in the line. The 2 points determines this, always exists a straight line through the points, if the 2 points are not identical (the same), the line is unambiguous. This has length and direction. Two of this can cross one other, can be parallel, in one line, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.21.186.170 (talk) 11:07, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

If I'm understanding you correctly, that's called a line segment, or informally just a "segment", in English. Deor (talk) 11:11, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Given that the 'line' has direction, I am tempted to say that it's a Euclidean vector: "A Euclidean vector is frequently represented by a line segment with a definite direction". However, that article is iw-linked to Hungarian hu:Vektor, so I guess that might not be the word that the OP is asking for. V85 (talk) 16:41, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Given that the OP mentioned parallel but not antiparallel, and said nothing to suggest considering the endpoints as an ordered pair, I read direction as not including sense. (hmm, Sense (disambiguation) does not include the sense of sense that I have in mind.) —Tamfang (talk) 01:04, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

See wikt:szakasz and wikt:line segment.

—Wavelength (talk) 01:29, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Spänn/spenn

What exactly does spänn (Swedish) or spenn (Danish/Norwegian) mean? I understand it's used as an alternative term for the local currency, but I have never understood the exact details and implications behind the word. Is it simply a cool slang term or an everyday word with intrinsic meaning? My best guess is that it means something like "worth", for example femtio spänn means "fifty's worth" (in Finnish we would say viidenkymmenen edestä or, simply viidelläkymmenellä). Is this right? JIP | Talk 21:31, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

See sv:wikt:spänn --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 22:55, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

That doesn't help English speakers. 69.62.243.48 (talk) 02:56, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

As a Norwegian speaker, I'd say, yes, it's just 'cool term' for money. So 'femti spenn' = 50 kroner, much like 'five bucks' is $5. I don't think your attempt at 'translating' it to 'worth' is right, as no one would ever say: Den har fem kroners verdi. (But Den er verd fem kroner.) It's just used as a replacement for 'kroner/kronor', whereas if it had the meaning 'worth', it might've been necessary to change the grammatical formula.

According to the Swedish Wiktionary page, it says that 'spänn' comes from 'spänna' (v) which is borrowed from English 'spend'. I would guess that the Norwegian term has been borrowed from Swedish. V85 (talk) 03:37, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Swedish seems to have been borrowing rather freely from English. A number of Swedes I've met insist that the verb for "adding" someone (on an instant message service, Facebook, or whatever) is "adda", not the usual "lägga till". (Personally, I find it annoying and strange. If you're going to speak English, just speak English, dammit.)  dalahäst ^{(let's talk!)} 07:08, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

BrEnglish has a number of slang terms for money used in the same way; see Quid, Nicker, Sov, Bob - Cucumber Mike (talk) 07:35, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

July 23

Mongol-era names of provinces of Burma in Chinese characters and in pinyin

The Mongols set up two separate provinces in Upper Burma after their invasions in the late 13th century. My sources say the first province with the provincial capital at Tagaung in northern Burma was named "Cheng-Mien" or "Chiang-Mien", supposedly meaning the "Burmese capital". It was set up around 1284/1285. The second province in central Burma was named "Chung-Mien" some time after the invasion of 1287. Would anyone know their Chinese and pinyin spellings? Thanks. Hybernator (talk) 16:13, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Just two educated guesses: 城緬 Chéng Miǎn / Ch'eng Mien, 中緬 Zhōng Miǎn / Chung Mien. (Simplified, they are 城缅 & 中缅) --151.41.215.88 (talk) 16:40, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Kanji for placenames

Apparently, some cities with a large historical Japanese presence have a kanji version of their name. For example: Honolulu/ホノルル > 花瑠璃, Sacramento/サクラメント > 桜府, Los Angeles/ロサンゼルス > 羅府. Now I‘m wondering if there is also a kanji version for other places which have/had a similarly significative Japanese population, in particular: Koror/コロール (which was also part of the Japanese Empire), Davao/ダバオ (before WW2 80% of the population was Japanese) and Broome/ブルーム. Thanks!--151.41.215.88 (talk) 16:30, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

"Swear marks"

Do we have an article about the use of strings of non-alpha, non-numeric characters to represent cursing?

E.g., "Where's the %&$\# dictionary?"

I expect this is covered somewhere in Wikipedia but I don't know how to search for such a thing.

Thank you. Wanderer57 (talk) 16:50, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Sort of. See Grawlix. Dismas|^(talk) 16:56, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

DELIVRANCE

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