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What is Texas's age of consent?

This is actually a question that's been discussed for some time at: Talk:Ages_of_consent_in_the_United_States#Texas (under "Indiana section now outdated"). It's a tough subject because Texas has two laws that may affect the age of consent:

• section 21.11 of title 5: "Sec. 21.11. INDECENCY WITH A CHILD. (a) A person commits an offense if, with a child younger than 17 years of age, whether the child is of the same or opposite sex, the person:[...]"
• section 43.25(b): "Sec. 43.25. SEXUAL PERFORMANCE BY A CHILD. (a) In this section: (1) "Sexual performance" means any performance or part thereof that includes sexual conduct by a child younger than 18 years of age." inducement of sexual conduct and for sexual activity involving "visual representation or employment" at 18

There had been two convictions under 43.25 John Perry Dornbusch and Todd William Baker which did not involve commercial performances nor visual representation, with only incitement to do a sexual act.

Situation from published reliable sources:

• Texas newspapers say that the age of consent is 17 (I haven't seen an article from a Texas newspaper citing Dornbusch or stating that it's in fact 18)
  • Houston Chronicle: "The case illustrates the gray area of criminal responsibility for teens having sex before they are legally able to consent at the age of 17."
  • Dallas Morning News: "The age of consent in Texas is 17."
• Stephen L. Carter (Yale University professor) argued on the basis of John Perry Dornbusch and Todd William Baker that in fact the AOC is 18 even though some defense lawyers didn't believe so (one example of a defense lawyer that he cited)
• Eugene Volokh of the Washington Post considered Stephen Carter's arguments: "As best I can tell, 30 states set the general age of consent at sixteen; 8 set it at seventeen; and 12 set it at eighteen (though it’s possible that the last there are actually 7 at seventeen and 13 at eighteen, because of an odd twist with Texas law). [...] Over 60 percent of the population lives in the states that set the age of consent at 16 or 17, regardless of how one counts Texas." - He didn't definitely decide whether Texas AOC should be set at 17 or 18

Currently on the U.S. age of consent map Texas is colored gray for other/unknown instead of a specified age

User:Fabrickator argued that because the Texas Jurisprudence®, 3d (this requires a payment to view) recently published a statement in the section "20 Tex. Jur. 3d Criminal Law: Offenses Against Public Order" saying: "The language of this provision [Tex. Penal Code Ann. § 43.25(b)] criminalizes the inducement of a child's sexual conduct regardless of whether it amounts to a sexual performance, and it applies to nonpornographic, noncommercial sexual conduct by children." (and because of other explanations in Talk:Ages_of_consent_in_the_United_States#Texas in regards to how incitement of sexual conduct was criminalized), Wikipedia ought to say that 18 is definitely the age of consent in Texas, arguing that any statements saying that the age of consent are 17 are not true.

I argue that because at this time secondary sources (newspapers, magazines, etc.) haven't come to a consensus that 18 should be considered the age of consent, and the Texas state government and major newspapers have never made an announcement (in a medium read by the "ordinary Joe") explicitly clarifying that 18 and not 17 is the age of consent on the basis of Dornbusch and Baker, the article should not definitely state which age is Texas's age of consent and instead summarize the various views by columnists and present the exact quote from the source Fabrickator found.

Lastly I will say that in regards to my proposal to ask the Texas state government and/or major newspapers to make a public announcement to clarify what the "age of consent" is in the state (my suggestion to Fabrickator to get this matter cleared up), this is a perfectly reasonable request on the grounds of:

• Prosecutors do prosecute on the grounds of "ignorance of the law is not an excuse", so clarity on the law is warranted
• It is the job of government officials to explain the laws they write, interpret, and enforce
• The vast majority of ordinary people don't even think of reading Texas Jurisprudence®, 3d, let alone paying for it, nor will they think of searching for legal cases that get scant coverage in the media (I don't think any Texas outlets have ever published any articles saying that Dornbusch and Baker have changed/affected the state age of consent - such articles would be warranted!) - therefore government officials should publish "plain speech" and/or "TL/DR" summaries of the realities/interpretations of such laws.

@Fabrickator: WhisperToMe (talk) 08:37, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

Please clarify: What part in all of this relates to the issue of Original Research? Blueboar (talk) 11:04, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

@Blueboar: I fear that if one, based on the above presented, says the age of consent is certainly 18, it may be counted as original research due to ambiguities over the wording "inducement of a child's sexual conduct" (what forms of inducement? what does that mean?) in the 18+ law, as well as due to the lack of agreement between the secondary sources (note that while "Texas newspapers say that" lists two examples, there are many other newspaper articles which say the age of consent is 17). WhisperToMe (talk) 11:57, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

OK... here is my take: we have one statute that says 17, and another that says 18... thus Wikipedia can not say that one or the other is the definitive age of consent. Instead we need to note both ages, and the statutes that apply. Don't interpret the statutes ... just neutrally present what they say. Blueboar (talk) 12:54, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

I agree with this. Above I suggested not definitely stating an age of consent. I don't see a problem including interpretations from other secondary sources as long as they're presented as such, such as Stephen Carter's, etc. WhisperToMe (talk) 13:20, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

From Wikipedia:No_original_research/Noticeboard#What_is_Texas.27s_age_of_consent.3F a user e-mailed me the Texas Jurisprudence article. He read the Baker v. Texas link which stated "the plain language of section 43.25(b) authorizes the prosecution of those who induce persons younger than eighteen years old to, among other things, have sexual intercourse." and based on that believes the age of consent is unambiguously 18; the Wikipedian believes that (his words): "It scarcely matters that there is also a different criminal provision with a minimum age of 17." WhisperToMe (talk) 17:05, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm the editor just quoted. I didn't realize that this was about an OR issue.

The OR issues here are a bit tricky. None of the secondary sources cited above are reliable sources: lay newspapers are not RS for legal conclusions, and neither are unedited blog posts. So can we simply say that the Texas age of consent is 18, or is that WP:SYN? I think this is a fairly close issue on the WP:SYN issue, but what carries the day for me is that a Texas court, in the course of discussing these two statutes, actually said that the Texas age of consent is 17. Ex parte Fujisaka, 472 S.W.3d 792, 800, 801 (Tex. Ct. App. 2015).

On the other hand, we can't just say that the age of consent is 17, either. The Texas Department of Public Safety has taken the position that the Texas age of consent is 18. Appellant's Brief, Texas Department of Public Safety v. Garcia, 2010 WL 1366961, at 8 (Tex. Ct. App. filed Feb. 1, 2010). And this is clearly a reasonable position for the department to take. So for us to choose one age over the other would be WP:SYN. We need to say that there are two different statutes that have been characterized as age of consent statutes in Texas, with two different ages (17 and 18), with perhaps a brief discussion of each.

If anyone wants a copy of any of the documents I've cited, email me and I can reply with a PDF. The Fujisaka case may be available on the web, I haven't checked. John M Baker (talk) 20:56, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for your research! It's really helpful and answers a lot of questions.

As for lay newspapers being unreliable sources for law, it may help to put that in Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (law) if there's a consensus for that position among Wikipedia:WikiProject Law editors. However "Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (law)" is currently just an essay.

WhisperToMe (talk) 22:33, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

To switch gears a bit, would anybody care to speculate why Template:Age_of_consent_pages_discussion_header (click on the "show" link) defines special rules pertaining to the quality of the "age of consent" pages? Fabrickator (talk) 06:07, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

@Fabrickator: Thanks for bringing that up! Do you remember where the discussions which determined this discussion header are located? I am aware that there is a general principle on WP that a small group of editors in a particular place can come up with a consensus, but that a larger consensus determined by the whole community can override that. WhisperToMe (talk) 13:21, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

@WhisperToMe: I think we can reasonably assume that the guidance provided in the "discussion header" came about from challenges encountered as the "age of consent" pages evolved, and (I presume) particularly as different "reliable sources" provided conflicting information. My recollection, when I previously raised the issue of the special rules that apply to the "age of consent" pages, was that somebody had determined that the discussion was "misplaced" and was moved to a different article. I have been unable to locate that discussion.

I am unaware of other pages that have a similar set of special rules. The editors involved felt strongly that these rules were needed, which suggests to me that we should not dismiss them lightly. I'd also point out that in addition to the issue about appropriate references, the "discussion header" calls for highlighting a specifically-defined age of consent. I would advocate that we think carefully before ignoring this advice. Fabrickator (talk) 06:23, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

@Blueboar: @John M Baker: @WhisperToMe: I am not sure this is the proper forum for this discussion, but as long as we're here ...

It has been stated that there is one statute saying the age of consent is 17 and another saying it's 18, but this is not really accurate. Neither of these laws authorizes consensual sex with a person over a stated age. Rather, each of these criminalizes consensual sex (under specified conditions) with a person under a stated age.

Arguably, there may be some ambiguity about what these "conditions" are, but more plausibly, the D.A.'s office determines there is a crime to be prosecuted, and then based on what they feel they can prove, they decide what statutes to charge.

Last but not least, if there's some kind of vague condition, the intention of having a "highlighted" age of consent is to indicate the age of consent that doesn't require further explanation (i.e. an approximation to an "unfettered" age of consent). So what I mean by this is, if I tell you that the age of consent is thus and such, then a person should not be subject to prosecution, if the other party is of the specified age. Maybe there are conditions when sex with someone under that age may not be subject to prosecution, but that's going to require further clarification. Our focus needs to be on the age that doesn't need this further clarification. Fabrickator (talk) 06:48, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Fabrickator, that's not really what an age of consent statute does; it's pretty rare for a statute affirmatively to state that a person over a specified age is authorized to consent to sex. Instead, rape and other statutes provide that a person under a certain age is deemed unable to consent to sex. The intro to Age of consent explains this pretty well. John M Baker (talk) 21:17, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

@John M Baker: But of course. The point, however, is that these two laws do not contradict each other, they apply concurrently, and this distinction is important, because to say there are two different age of consent statutes would mislead the casual reader.

Our only concern is determining how old the other person has to be, so that an actor having consensual sex with that person is not thereby committing a criminal act, without making any assumptions about the actor's age. There cannot be two answers, because there's only one set of factual circumstances (granting, notwithstanding, the additional condition of 43.25(b), and that there could, in principle, be different ages of consent for different sexual acts).

Setting aside specific limitations or exceptions to the statute is how we arrive at this notion of the "unfettered" age of consent. This saves us from confusing the issue, for instance, by saying that as long as you don't induce the person, sex with a 17-year-old is legal, leaving the reader to erroneously infer that inducement means providing compensation. There's one set of factual circumstances, there can only be one "bold" age of consent for Texas, and there's no reason to make it appear that there's some ambiguity about this. Fabrickator (talk) 22:04, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, I actually do think that that's the right answer. I've spelled out the factual situation above, so I'll let others decide whether that's an OR problem. John M Baker (talk) 22:12, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

@John M Baker: To be clear, I am continuing to advocate that the "unfettered" age of consent for Texas is 18. I am not sure what your statement about "factual situation" means. To clarify, I'll offer the following as an example set of "factual circumstances":

A 72-year-old retired person comes into contact with a high school senior. They talk briefly and decide to grab some food. While eating, they have a discussion about some things of common interest, e.g. sex. The adult suggests to the student that he has a "library" that may be of interest to the student. So they go back to his place, one thing leads to another, and they have consensual oral, vaginal, and anal sex. The adult has not previously been convicted of any crime, there was no promise of payment for sex, no pictures were taken, no other parties were present, nor was there anything that constituted a "performance".

Based on these factual circumstances, how old would the student have to be such that the 72-year-old did not commit a crime under the applicable statutes? Considering "factual circumstances" such as this one should inform us as to the appropriate "unfettered" age of consent for Texas. Fabrickator (talk) 00:51, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

The student would have to be 18 for there to be no crime. This is not a point on which there is ambiguity. The ambiguity, if there is any, derives from the meaning of "age of consent." Under the definition in our age of consent article, the age of consent in Texas is 18. However, "age of consent" is often taken as the age at which consent can be given to intercourse under a rape statute, and for this purpose the age of consent in Texas is 17. John M Baker (talk) 03:35, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

And I believe that's why the ages of consent of Ohio and Pennsylvania are defined as "16" even though someone may still be prosecuted for corruption of a minor until the younger party is 18 (the respective "corruption of minor statutes" are classified differently. WhisperToMe (talk) 04:21, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

@Blueboar: @John M Baker: @WhisperToMe: Would there be consensus to "close" the discussion on this page, and copy the discussion from here over to Talk:Ages_of_consent_in_the_United_States#Texas where we can resume the discussion (perhaps including a summary of the "findings" of this discussion)? (oops, we either need a new section on Talk:Ages_of_consent_in_the_United_States or rename one of the existing sections named "Texas") Fabrickator (talk) 16:41, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

I concur. John M Baker (talk) 18:40, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

I've said everything I wanted to say... so do what you want. Blueboar (talk) 21:16, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

@Fabrickator: The discussion may be moved :) WhisperToMe (talk) 04:21, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

CIvil conflict infobox at 2017 Unite the Right Rally

At 2017 Unite the Right Rally (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) Don1183 (talk · contribs) persists in adding a "civil conflict" infobox despite lack of consensus at the talk page pointing out that there are no sources calling this a civil conflict. It's been removed twice and he's restored it each time. He's a new editor but I did explain this to him on his talk page. He thinks that because it seems that a car deliberately rammed people that makes it a civil conflict. Doug Weller talk 19:49, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

And it names groups on each "side" which of course mahpkes it look as though they are all fighting each other. Doug Weller talk 20:13, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Clearly undue. A similar discussion came up at 2017 Berkeley protests; there was even an RfC about it, which closed with a clear consensus against such an infobox: RfC about adding an infobox (permalink. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:37, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

I agree, and have removed the infobox. --Guy Macon (talk) 12:07, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Prime Number Distribution Series

I have also requested a look at WT:WikiProject Mathematics. Is this new article original research? It appears to me that the author is referring to his own works, and that they have not been peer-reviewed. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:01, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Deletion discussion is in progress. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:09, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

United States presidential election, 2020‎

The rules in use at United States presidential election, 2020‎, while reasonable for a state-level campaign with a short window of candidate uncertainty, are producing an absurd result right now. The page is almost entirely original research as to who is "likely" to run. I'm not sure how to fix the page, I have proposed several options but the editors-in-residence on that page (many of whom have edited this type of page for many years) are resistant to even entertaining the idea of change. Any suggestions on how to improve that page? Power~enwiki (talk) 22:45, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

British Sri Lankan Tamil article

I have removed quite a lot of original research from the British Sri Lankan Tamil article, largely consisting of material sourced to sources that do not mention British Sri Lankan Tamils. An example is "The second generation have received little attention from scholars, but a lot of information can be gleamed from similar diaspora groups in other racial communities. The Economist noted how westernisation had affected Muslims...", which Lankandude2017 is insisting on restoring to the article. I have started a discussion at Talk:British Sri Lankan Tamil and would appreciate further input. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:09, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

I note that Iryna Harpy has previously expressed similar concerns about this editor's additions to the British Tamil article, and so I've been looking into some of their contributions. I have deleted some unsourced material from Indian diaspora in France. I'd appreciate help looking into their other contributions to see if this is a general problem with their editing. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:35, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

@Cordless Larry: Update: Health in Sri Lanka: I've already found WP:OFFTOPIC additions such as the one here, as well as content from promotional sites that do not meet with WP:RS, as well as completely unsourced content here. Considering how few contributions the user has made, all of them smack of WP:NOTHERE. The user's objective is WP:SPA beyond a shadow of a doubt. I've removed the contentious material. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 20:41, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

RfC about references and airport articles

Hello, your input would be appreciated at this RfC about how we should give references for the "Airlines and destinations" tables of articles about airports. Thank you. — Sunnya343✈ (háblame • my work) 11:48, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Possible OR at Climate change denial

I've objected a couple of times to a contributors insertions in Climate change denial pm the basis of OR. The discussions are at Talk:Climate_change_denial#Center_for_American_Progress.23Center_for_American_Progress_Action_Fund and Talk:Climate_change_denial#Clarify_Obama_on_climate_change. I don't think we're on the same wavelength at all - anyone like to look and comment? Dmcq (talk) 05:25, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

Your response to the second point, about including Obama's statement, is right on track - it is a bit of coatracking/POV to use the quote to give a severity of the climate change issue and then to subsequently talk about climate change deniers.

First point I think you're response has the right reasons - we shouldn't include a think tank's analysis unless it has been noted by independent RSes. A point I bring up but do not attempt to resolve is that thinkprogress.org (the independent site, it seems) is used 160-some times on WP, frequently on BLP pages (including Michelle Obama) so there may be crossed wires if it is an RS. It might be worth establishing this at the RSN. Do note the same report has been added by the same editor at Climate change policy of the United States so you may want to check other contributions. --MASEM (t) 06:21, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

ThinkProgress might be okay for some things but I definitely have reservations in this instance because it is reporting on the Center for American Progress which set it up, and as the article on ThinkProgress says 'In 2011, Smith and Kenneth Vogel wrote in Politico that the ThinkProgress reporting staff "isn’t exactly walled off from the Center for American Progress Action Fund message machine, nor does it necessarily keep its distance from liberal groups organizing advocacy campaigns targeting conservatives." ThinkProgress editor Legum said ThinkProgress "is editorially independent of CAP."' I think an independent source is required here. Dmcq (talk) 09:43, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

True enough. But interesting just trying to see if other sources exist I came across this (done by Vice's own survey), and [1] Mother Jones also points to the CAP study. Just searching news, there is clearly a thread that there is concern that some subsection of Congressmembers have made statements that would categorize them as climate change deniers, and in such a case, we then could say the results of the separate studies. --MASEM (t) 13:46, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

In 1994, according to a leaked memo, the Republican strategist Frank Luntz advised members of the Republican Party, with regard to climate change, that "you need to continue to make the lack of scientific certainty a primary issue" and "challenge the science" by "recruiting experts who are sympathetic to your view." In 2006, Luntz stated that he still believes "back [in] '97, '98, the science was uncertain", but he now agrees with the scientific consensus. The nonpartisan policy institute and advocacy organization the Center for American Progress Action Fund, in a 2017 study of climate change denial in the United States Congress based on Senators' and Representatives' public statements, found 180 Senators and Representatives who deny the science behind climate change; all were Republicans.

References

Contended content in bold. The contended content has no OR issues. The proposed content updates the article with recent developments in the relationship between climate change denial and major US political party, since the Luntz conversion in 2007. Here ThinkProgress is in the role of publisher of the report, and the Center for American Progress Action Fund is in the role of author of the report, or "agency" - this relationship is clearly explained in the two sources, a ThinkProgress article and a Center for American Progress Action Fund press release. The study is a reliable source for its own content with in-text attribution. The contended content is attributed in-text. The content is not in Wikipedia voice; Wikipedia is not saying that all the climate deniers in Congress are Republicans, we are saying that a recent report says so. The article lead already covers organized climate change denial as an American phenomenon; it seems appropriate that Wikipedia's article on climate change denial might be able to point out the significant correlation of the subject with major US political party. Sources need not be neutral; many sources in this article are not neutral on the subject. ECarlisle (talk) 17:32, 8 September 2017 (UTC)