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May 24

C word v. B word

Sorry for the crudeness. Will the c word and "bitch" every switch and replace each other? After looking at their respective articles, it seems to me that "bitch" is the more offensive one. A guy being called a dick (or other slang words for male genitalia) isn't much of an insult; it just means he's a jerk. But if males started calling each other "ridgling" or were called a "ridgling" by angry women, wouldn't we (as a guy) sort of see how offensive it is to be compared to an animal?? Well, I've noticed more and more girls in real life are open to the c word and use it both sexually and as a way of saying a girl is a jerk. Is there any proof that maybe the c word will eventually overtake the b word as the lesser offending and more popular word?`Reflectionsinglass (talk) 05:09, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Where are you from that the c word is LESS offensive???165.212.189.187 (talk) 13:26, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

At the top of this page it states "We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate." (bold mine). I'm not sure there are any useful references we can provide you to answer this topic since you're just asking for people to predict what's going to happen in the future. --Jayron32 05:18, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

One thing I've noticed (and hope others can confirm) is that in North America cunt is usually a term of abuse for women, while in Britain and Australia it's usually addressed to men. In the latter countries it seems unlikely that it would replace bitch since bitch is everywhere usually applied to women and only occasionally to men. Angr (talk) 05:38, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

we have no references that can predict curse swapping μηδείς (talk) 06:25, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

But there are certainly academic studies into the trends in how swear words are used and how they are regarded. More interestingly, as this is the Language desk, I wonder if there are real life cases of two words that have switched meaning? Sussexonian (talk) 07:55, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I can't remember which one now, but there is some Native American language whose word for "six" is cognate with the word for "seven" in all its closest relatives, and whose word for "seven" is cognate with the word for "six" in all its closest relatives, so apparently the words for "six" and "seven" switched meaning in that language. Angr (talk) 10:05, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps they're the origin of this British idiom. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 212.95.237.92 (talk) 13:26, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Search "antagonym" there are some good starting points there.165.212.189.187 (talk) 13:23, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In America at least, you can say the "B-word" on all levels of TV (in an appropriate context), but you can't say the C-word at all, even on cable TV. So, no. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:09, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Unless, of course, you're on live TV and aren't the sort of person the producers expect to need a 7-second delay for. Angr (talk) 15:48, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. "Can't" as in "not supposed to". Meanwhile that "B-word" has been used on TV for a long time. It's possible the "C-word" will achieve that status someday, but not likely anytime soon. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:11, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

When I first moved to Germany it took me a while to get used to how nonchalantly people on TV here drop F-bombs. It doesn't seem to be any stronger than "crap" or "hell" in the States. Angr (talk) 17:36, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps because they learned its frequent use from soldiers? Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:45, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It didn't used to be that way here. Vulgar language, especially in public, used to be a sign of low breeding. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:36, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wass up?

What does William de Berkeley, 1st Marquess of Berkeley's nickname "the Wass all" mean? Clarityfiend (talk) 19:51, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe something to do with wassail? -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 20:00, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Possibly; Google only brings up results from our article and Burke's Peerage, neither of which explain. "Wass" seems to be a Middle English spelling for "was" [1] - although William "Was all" doesn't make much sense either. Alansplodge (talk) 00:06, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for trying. Th-th-th-th-ass all, folks! Clarityfiend (talk) 10:05, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"speculated to be"

At [2], I queried whether the following phrase is correct:

"... Mondeuse noire (pictured) has been speculated to be the Ancient Roman wine grape ..."

Although two people there said it was correct English (albeit in one case a bit awkward) I remain unconvinced. You can't "speculate something to be something", so how can something be "speculated to be something"? I would like further opinions on this. 86.146.104.207 (talk) 19:58, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Speculate is technically intransitive. One speculates "about something" or "that something is the case". One does not speculate "something", hence we cannot say "something has been speculated". I'd rewrite it as "It has been speculated that Mondeuse noire (pictured) is the Ancient Roman wine grape ...".

That said, people do employ these clumsy sorts of constructions all the time. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 20:08, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In this case, a combination of passive voice and weasel words. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:10, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's likely from interference with "suspected to be". μηδείς (talk) 21:30, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

But that has the same problem. You could not say "Oswald has long been suspected to be a stool pigeon" without raising the eyebrows of a purist. The closest you could come with impugnity is "It has long been suspected that Oswald was a stool pigeon". -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 00:38, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That kind of sentence in an article is what gave rise to the ^[who?] template. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:40, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I do not see any grammatical problem with "Oswald has long been suspected to be a stool pigeon". 86.128.5.101 (talk) 02:00, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No grammatical issue, just factual, as he never confessed to anything. He claimed to be a "patsy", which is something different. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:02, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with IP 86 that "suspected to be" is okay, but I agree with Jack that "suspected that" is much better, and were I being paid to do so, I would rewrite it as "suspected that". μηδείς (talk) 03:09, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I would go so far as to write "Oswald has long been suspected of being a stool pigeon", but not the "to be" version. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 06:49, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that "of being" may read better, but logically I think the following are equally valid:

People have long suspected him of being... -> He has long been suspected of being...

People have long suspected him to be... -> He has long been suspected to be...

81.159.110.250 (talk) 19:34, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

May 25

Question about a word found in the article Hindu milk miracle

In your article entitled "Hindu milk miracle," the word "vikramaditya" appears under "Scientific explanation" heading. What does this word mean? I looked in dictionaries and in search engines, but could locate a meaning. It was printed unitalicised, so I think it was represented as an English word. 210.84.36.154 (talk) 00:31, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Vikramaditya is an name meaning "power-sun" in Sanskrit (and the name of several ancient kings), but my suspicion is that it's just vandalism or an editing error. You could ask user 218.186.17.244, who added it on April 11, 2011. Lesgles (talk) 01:15, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Billfold or Wallet

I once saw in an American English to British English handbook that wallet is British and billfold is American. What is it really? PS: I saw the wiki article for Wallet; it doesn't mention billfold except in the intro. This [3] says it is a US and Canadian word for wallet.--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 00:44, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

American here. I've heard the term billfold before, but I know of few Americans in my everyday interaction who use it on a regular basis. Almost everyone I know and have known in my life calls it a wallet. The term is known, but not common, in America. I have no idea about the UK, Australia, South Africa, or anywhere else, but here it's a known but not common term. --Jayron32 00:49, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've heard the word "billfold", presumably in an American movie or TV show, but nobody in Oz ever uses it. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 01:03, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I would call "billfold" an old-fashioned word, kind of like "pocketbook" for a woman's small purse. I would say "wallet" is pretty common usage in America. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:13, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

For what it is worth, I did a little work on Google ngrams to look at the frequency of the two terms. Of note: 1) Wallet does now and has always vastly dominated in usage over billfold. 2) Billfold saw a bump in the 1940s-1950s, which is my sense: I associate the term with people at least 2 generations older than me. 3) The difference in usage cannot be explained as "US vs British english" differences, in the sense that if "billfold" was common or dominant in the U.S., it would be close to, or even surpass, the usage of "wallet" at Ngrams. Billfold appears to have always been in minor usage. Which is not to say that it isn't a primarily U.S. term, but rather that it is NOT the dominant term in the U.S. for the object. Or to say it another way, the term may or may not be purely American in usage, but even in America, it is not now, nor does it appear to have ever been, widely used. --Jayron32 01:17, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The word "bill" in this sense is not used in the UK either, except when referring to "dollar bill". The usual word is "note". 86.146.106.208 (talk) 01:44, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The history of these terms may be of interest:[4][5] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:45, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

'Bills' in UK English means underpants (coming from Bill Grundys - undies) so a 'billfold' would be a fold in your underpants (or a method for doing so) but 'bill' also means a demand for payment. We use 'notes' for money. 'The Bill' also means Police, for some reason. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 05:48, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

All of our American currency carries the words "Federal Reserve Note", but I've never heard any American refer to a bill as a "note" in normal usage. In literature we might refer to "banknotes" in prose or poetry - I'm reminded of the Owl and the Pussycat who went to sea, and brought with them "plenty of money, wrapped up in a five-pound note". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:46, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So if I ever go to America, if I meet a guy called 'Bill', I should call him 'Note', instead, just to be British. Duly billed. Cheers. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 07:28, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In 1966 Australia changed from pounds, shillings and pence to dollars and cents. A major "character" in the TV advertising campaign (see fun video here) to explain it all to the masses was "Dollar Bill". It's the only time I can recall the term "bill" being used for Australian currency, so I'm not sure how effective the campaign was. Interestingly, we gave up paper money for our dollar less than 20 years later, using a nice gold looking coin instead. So, no dollar bills in Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 07:37, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've lived in England all my life and have never heard 'bills' meaning underpants. Sounds like a bit of made-up rhyming slang. 'The Old Bill' for the police (not 'the bill' except for the TV show) is real but perhaps a bit dated. And if I saw 'billfold' I would think it was American. Sussexonian (talk) 08:47, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The most likely explanation for "Old Bill" is that policemen were likened to Bruce Bairnsfather's cartoon character of the same name, a grumpy and sarcastic old veteran with a walrus moustache. I've lived in East London all my life and never heard of "Bills" meaning underpants, but you never can tell. Alansplodge (talk) 12:33, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the OED marks "billfold" as just American, with an earliest cite of 1895. I've never heard it here in the UK except in American films. I think Alan's walrus moustache cartoon explanation of "Old Bill" seems to have most support. The OED says: "The origin is uncertain. It may have arisen from subsequent use of the cartoon character, depicted in police uniform, on posters in a Metropolitan Police recruitment campaign of 1917, and later during the Second World War (1939–45) giving advice on wartime security. Among other explanations that have been suggested are that it is from the association of police officers prior to the Second World War with ‘Old Bill’ moustaches; from the ‘bill’ used as a weapon by 18th-cent. constables; or from the registration letters BYL originally used on cars belonging to the Flying Squad." The earliest cite given by the OED is from 1958. Dbfirs 20:25, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have never heard the term billfold, except in films, either. (But unlike Bugs, I do still say pocketbook.) μηδείς (talk) 21:28, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's what my grandmother called it. :) Interesting to note it's still in use. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:37, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect it's regional (Philly/New York City for me), and depends on the item. A small strapless one is a purse, a big one with a strap is a pocketbook, where I come from, and with people I am familiar with. I have no female friends under 30, but all I know would agree with the distinction I just made. μηδείς (talk) 21:20, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It might have gone in and out of favor in various regions. My grandmother was a lifelong Midwesterner. There's also the "sack" vs. "bag" thing. In the Midwest we talk about a grocery bag, whereas in, say, the New York area a "bag" is a large purse, and a grocery bag is a "sack". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:50, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I called my mother, who went to public school in Philly and is in her 70's. She says the general word is handbag, and that a pocket-book is usually large with straps and has internal pockets like office files while a purse doesn't usually have a strap. She agrees people say purse when they should be saying pocketbook. μηδείς (talk) 01:56, 27 May 2013 (UTC

Bills (Bill Grundy's) as ?cockney slang for pants (undies), come on Kage, where have you heard that. I'm 65 plus years old in the UK and never heard it in my life. The idea that cockneys, or anybody forming this type of dry humour slang, would refer to 'undies' is hard to believe. Richard Avery (talk) 07:17, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In Australia the rhyming term Reg Grundys is occasionally used for undies. Reg was a bit of an entertainment entrepreneur, so the term is possibly used more by those in that industry. This has nothing to do with bill, but does say that such rhyming slang exists. HiLo48 (talk) 07:52, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My uncle (born in the 1930s) used the term "billfold", but in his case he used it literally. He kept both a billfold (essentially a simple wallet, with little more than cash) and a wallet (with ID, credit cards, etc.) on him when he went out. I don't know where he picked up the habit, but the stated purpose was to give up the billfold in case of mugging/robbery. The thief would get the cash they wanted and my uncle would keep the ID and cards he needed. Matt Deres (talk) 20:19, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Chipping/Koping

I was struck by the identical meaning and similar pronunciation of:

   Chipping  (English)
   Koping    (Swedish - with an umlaut over the o)

Both mean market town and are part of many city or town names in both countries.

Google does not mention any linguistic relationship however. I believe there is one since Britain was invaded and occupied for a long time by the Norse whose language must have had influence on English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.243.102.237 (talk) 16:54, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

According to article Köping, the word "Köping" is "cognate to the English toponymical name Chipping", but Chipping Norton says that "Chipping" is "from Old English cēping, meaning 'market'". So would that mean the common ancestor of those words was from an ancestor language that predated both Old English and some old Scandinavian language? Hopefully an expert will be able to clarify the relationship. 86.128.5.101 (talk) 17:04, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

They are both Germanic languages, although they belong to different branches. Our article on Old Norse says; "Old English and Old Norse were closely related languages, and it is therefore not surprising that many words in Old Norse look familiar to English speakers, e.g. armr (arm), fótr (foot), land (land), fullr (full), hanga (to hang), standa (to stand), etc. This is because both English and Old Norse stem from a Proto-Germanic mother language." Alansplodge (talk) 19:31, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Elof Hellquist's Svensk etymologisk ordbok (see [6]) and Svenska Akademiens Ordbok ([7]) both say that "köping" means market in Old Swedish. There seems to be different theories regarding the origin of the word. One idea is that it is a compound of köpa ("buy") with either äng ("meadow") or the Old Norse -angr ("cove"). Another theory is that köping is a verbal noun of köpa. Gabbe (talk) 19:48, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) They are indeed cognate. Compare also German kaufen - "buy". In Old English cēap the initial consonant was palatalised to /tʃ/ by the following front vowel, giving us the modern word "cheap", and the names "Chapman", "Chipping" and "Cheapside" (street name in many towns). In German, Dutch and the Scandinavian languages the related words did not have front vowels, and the initial consonant remained as /k/. More recently, in the Scandinavian languages the vowel has moved forward to /ø/, and in Swedish, but not in Danish, this too palatalises the initial consonant. So Copenhagen, whose pronunciation in da:København is given in our article as [kʰøb̥m̩ˈhɑʊ̯ˀn], but in Swedish sv:Köpenhamn is pronounced with an initial /ɕ/. --ColinFine (talk) 19:52, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Possibly not unrelated are the Russian words kupit' ("to buy"), and kupets ("merchant"). -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 20:59, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

ColineFine's and Jack's answers are correct. The English word "cheap" and the Ruthenian verb kupiti "to buy" kupovati "to go shopping" are also cognate. μηδείς (talk) 21:26, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Etymonline says 'cheap' is probably from an early Germanic borrowing of the Latin 'caupo', meaning 'petty tradesman'. Did the slavic languages then borrow it from Germanic? KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 07:25, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

According to the etymological dictionary I cited above, yes. It says that the likeliest hypothesis is that the ancient Germanic verb *kaupōn is formed from the Latin caupo (which according to Hellquist means "a merchant, particularly of wine") so that *kaupōn originally meant "having dealings with a caupo". Hellquist says that some researchers dispute this and think that the word is indigenously Germanic. Regardless, the Slavic languages then borrowed it from the Germanic. Gabbe (talk) 10:17, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Vulgate

I'm looking to make translating some of the Vulgate my summer project. I was wondering what would be a good text to use. I was looking for something with similar notes/commentary as might be expected in something like a Green and Yellow text, but the results I'm finding on Amazon don't seem to be quite what I'm looking for. Also, is the vocabulary going to be different or specialized enough that I would need a specific dictionary to help me with it? Thanks. 67.164.156.42 (talk) 21:52, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As in the Latin Vulgate Bible? The vocabulary, grammar, and syntax is a bit different if you're used to strictly classical Latin, but it's not particularly difficult once you get used to it. I'm not sure about a version with notes - personally, I like the Stuttgart edition, which does have notes, but they're all in Latin too... Adam Bishop (talk) 00:27, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Fifth edition Stuttgart is ISBN 978-3-438-05303-9. Revised 1986 Aland edition is 978-3-438-05300-8. Both of. These are standard scholarly editions. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 02:05, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know of any edition with linguistic notes in English, but as you may know already, there are a gazillion translations and commentaries online (Bible Gateway, Bible Study Tools, etc.). Also, New Advent has a version in Greek, Latin, and English with some notes, and Perseus has a Vulgate where the words link to their word study tool and the Lewis & Short dictionary. Lesgles (talk) 18:00, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

LatinVulgate.com has the Vulgate text alongside Douay-Rheims (which is a straight translation of the Vulgate) and the KJV. Douay-Rheims Bible Online also has the DR and Vulgate texts together (although this doesn't help for notes). Adam Bishop (talk) 20:32, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

May 26

Hollandia

The city of Batavia was renamed Jakarta during the Japanese occupation of Indonesia to erase its colonial etymology. Was the city of Hollandia (now Jayapura) also renamed during the war? As far as I can tell its other names Kota Baru/Sukarnapura were all given well after WWII. --151.41.180.137 (talk) 01:04, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A thorough search of Google hasn't yielded any results. It was common for conquerors to rename towns, especially if the name was directly linked to the previous regime; the renaming of Stanley as "Puerto Argentino" is a fairly recent example. So it seems likely that it was renamed, but where one would look to find out, I'm afraid I don't know. Alansplodge (talk) 11:32, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Day of the week/date punctuation

I'm currently GA reviewing the article "Behind That Locked Door" and came across the following bit of prose that has stumped my inner grammar cop.

"The arrival of Harrison's fellow Beatles John Lennon and Ringo Starr on Saturday, 30 August added to the heightened speculation"

The bit that's throwing me off is the punctuation surrounding "30 August." Personally, I am inclined to treat it as a parenthetical clause and offset it with a pair of commas — i.e., keep the comma after "Saturday" and add one more after "30 August". I seem to remember Strunk & White having something to say about this, but I don't have a copy on hand. In any case, I'm not sure if either using a second comma or not is "incorrect" in any but the strictest prescriptionist sense, but what is the commonly accepted wisdom on clauses such as this? Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 03:23, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Generally aren't weekdays omitted (unless it's a direct quote) if there is no real importance? Hot Stop 03:32, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Typically, yes, I think so. In this case I think it helps to make the chronology clearer, rather than just a series of "2x" or "3x August" dates, but I'll give it a second look and see if it might be better without them. The punctuation issue is still bugging me, though. Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 03:36, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think setting it off as a parenthetical would be correct if you intend to keep it. Hot Stop 03:40, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I would simply remove the existing comma. There's really no need for it, and it looks cleaner without it. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 03:50, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

See Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 135#Parenthetical comma usage with place names (January 2013).

—Wavelength (talk) 03:42, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure how that's relevant here. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 03:50, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is from WP:DATEFORMAT (version of 02:17, 21 May 2013).

When a date in mdy format appears in the middle of text, include a comma after the year (The weather on September 11, 2001, was clear and warm).

Your example is of a different sort, but similar enough to indicate that a comma should follow "August".

—Wavelength (talk) 04:27, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, if you want to retain Saturday, then add commas after Starr and August. The full date is then parenthetical. Dbfirs 07:24, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(... later ...) I've done that, to see what it looks like, and now I wonder if there should also be a comma after "Beatles". If your style is to avoid commas at all costs (the modern fashion, even at the cost of readability), then the date could go in parentheses. Dbfirs 07:31, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the input, everyone. I'm pretty sure there shouldn't be a comma after "Beatles," since that would make the following clause non-restrictive, effectively implying that Lennon and Starr were all of the "fellow Beatles," when of course there was some other guy. Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 07:56, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 08:21, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I wonder no longer! How could I forget Paul? Dbfirs 16:25, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

One English word which describes both "type of solution" and "type of expression"

Looking for an English word which describes both "type of solution" and "type of expression"49.206.53.229 (talk) 11:54, 26 May 2013 (UTC)vsmurthy[reply]

Can you be more specific? Both words have a wide variety of meanings; e.g. in a mathematical context, words such as "quadratic" might fit the bill.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 15:26, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

For idiomatic terms, 'permotinal' is the word you may be looking for, although it has not been used since the late 1800's. Standard English will not except this word. --Ordeerligg (talk) 19:24, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Could you please cite your source for 'permotinal'? I can find no evidence that such a word exists. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:31, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that standard English has indeed "excepted" this word. What it has failed to do is "accept" it. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 19:46, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's not even in the OED; did you make a typo? Nyttend (talk) 22:01, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Approach. Card Zero (talk) 19:55, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What do Seita and Setsuko say at 5:07 in this video?

It sounds like 'hen na kappa ya de' but this makes no sense in the context, as it would mean 'You are a strange mythical animal with a plate on his head and likes cucumbers', but is translated as 'You have no chance'. Here is the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VszIgRtKQqY&list=PLF71D83A71984C246 KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 20:58, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's not 'hen na kappa ya de', but 'he no kappa ya de'. 屁の河童 is an idiom and it means "trifles, easy, worthless". See [8], [9], and [10]. Oda Mari (talk) 09:26, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Semivowels and lax vowels

I've noticed that the IPA symbol 'ɪ' is used both for the near-high near-front unrounded vowel ('i' as in 'kit') as well as for the semivowel resembling the palatal approximant ('y' as in 'boy'). A similar situation is with 'ʊ', used for both the near-high near-back rounded vowel and the labio-velar approximant ('u' of pull and of 'hound'). Why? -- Ypnypn (talk) 21:56, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think you will find your answer in the article diphthong. From the section International Phonetic Alphabet: "The non-syllabic diacritic (an inverted breve below, ⟨◌ ̯⟩) can be placed under the less prominent component to show that it is part of a diphthong rather than a separate vowel. It is, however, usually omitted in languages such as English, where there is not likely to be any confusion." See also the section Difference from a vowel and semivowel: "While there are a number of similarities, diphthongs are not the same as a combination of a vowel and an approximant or glide. Most importantly, diphthongs are fully contained in the syllable nucleus[4][5] while a semivowel or glide is restricted to the syllable boundaries (either the onset or the coda). This often manifests itself phonetically by a greater degree of constriction.[6] though this phonetic distinction is not always clear.[7]" Lesgles (talk) 22:42, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Still, why is the same symbol used for different sounds? For example, [a] + [ɪ] does not sound at all like [aɪ]. -- Ypnypn (talk) 22:54, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to be more a matter of style than anything, and more common in British sources like the Oxford dictionary. I learned /aj/ for "eye" last century, which I suspect is what's in Fromkin and Rodman, although my copies of that text are in storage. μηδείς (talk) 01:48, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think in principle, there ought to be a tie or an inverted breve (see above) under the [aɪ] to distinguish it from [a] + [ɪ]. Mostly, though, it's omitted (probably too much trouble for too little gain - combinations like [a] + [ɪ] don't occur often, at least in English). Come to that, I don't believe the diphthong [aɪ] sounds exactly like [aj] either. Victor Yus (talk) 06:28, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think if you look at spectrogram of someone saying "kit", "price", and "yes", you'll be surprised at how much more like [ɪ] than [j] the end of the "price" vowel is. Angr (talk) 12:17, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Because the second sounds of the diphthongs are in fact the same or at least very close.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 15:38, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ironically, while the section dismisses the English word yes, the article lists similar examples from Italian, Portuguese, and Catalan. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 06:56, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

May 27

go one's bond

Would you please teach me the meaning of "go one's bond" in the following passage? Many thanks.123.227.223.236 (talk)dengen

I work hard to support her and I give her all I’ve got left over, and she goes and walks off like I was nothing more than one of them half-assed canaries Ashe Neff’s always talking about. You know what I had to do? I had to go and sign away my next month’s salary check before I could locate somebody who’s trust me enough to go my bond.---Erskine Caldwell, Episode in Palmetto, p.148. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.227.223.236 (talk) 11:17, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Often it would mean lending money for someone's bail (to get them out of jail, or prevent them going to jail). If that doesn't fit, maybe it simply refers to lending money in some other context. 86.146.109.150 (talk) 11:29, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In Australia there's the expression "go guarantor for" someone, typically an older adult agreeing to be responsible for repaying a loan in the event that the lendee, a younger person, defaults on it. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 11:34, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I would understand it in Jack's sense: not somebody who will actually lend, but somebody willing to agree to pay if the speaker fails to. --ColinFine (talk) 21:20, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A line from a song called "Cocaine Blues": "Had no friend for to go my bail / They slapped my dried-up carcass in the county jail." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:11, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Double diacritic letters

I'm looking for a character with two diacritics at once: the letter I (preferably lowercase) with a tilde, and then a grave accent on top of that. Has anyone seen such a character online? I need to type it, but I don't know how, and I don't know its official Unicode name; "i with tilde" "grave accent" finds nothing relevant in Google. I even looked through a few articles in the Vietnamese Wikipedia, but I couldn't find this combination of accents on this letter. Nyttend (talk) 22:09, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I with tilde + combining grave accent = ĩ̀.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 23:19, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! ~~How do you type it? Or did you copy it from a webpage, in which case what's the URL?~~ I needed the letter (and various others) for transcribing Loma, which has lots of otherwise-uncommon diacritical combinations. Nyttend (talk) 00:25, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Never mind; I just realised that it appears on List of Latin-script letters, along with lots of other combinations. I'd completely forgotten about this page, which I appreciate since I won't have to look up how to type the ɔ̃̀ open O with tilde and grave! Still curious: is there a way to type it? Nyttend (talk) 00:30, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've made these in standard Character Map (also can be done in BabelMap as well). Choose one letter, then one or more combining diacritics, voilà: ɔ̃̀ ɔ̃́ ɛ̃̀ ɛ̃́ ũ̀ ṹ ã̀ ã́ õ̀ ṍ ĩ̀ ĩ́ ẽ̀ ẽ́ ỹ̀ ỹ́ etc. If you type a lot, you'd better create your own keyboard layout with Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 16:11, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It is amusing to witness a rise of 21st-century myths about webpages which sometimes contain purely fine magical browser codes for displaying exotic characters in a way which cannot be achieved by browsing code charts and learning about Combining Diacritical Marks, as well as about Unicode input. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 05:51, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't understand that comment... what "myths"? what is a "purely fine magical browser"? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 10:22, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Incnis Mrsi, I only asked because I couldn't find ĩ̀ in Windows Character Map, and how are the combining diacritical marks applicable here? If any of the pages you linked explained the answer to my question, I've overlooked or misunderstood it. Nyttend (talk) 03:48, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

May 28

To lay out

In 12 Angry Men, one juror warns another "You oughta have more respect, mister. If you say stuff like that to him again... I'm gonna lay you out.". To lay out appears to express to knock down, to floor sb., but this meaning is not included in Wiktionary. One mentioned there is to prepare a body for burial, which seems a bit harsh, even metaphorically speaking. So, does to lay out also mean to knock down? And a second question in this context: In my native language German, the verb flachlegen ("to lay flat") both means to floor sb. and to lay sb. (sexually). Is there an expression in English with the same double meaning? --KnightMove (talk) 11:12, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To the first question, yes: to lay [someone] out means to knock someone down and/or out. To the second question, can't think of such a word right now, but maybe one exists. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 11:20, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To lay or to get laid, yes. But to lay out just means to arrange horizontally, such as laying out a buffet, or a red carpet, or a corpse, or whatever. It's also slang for knocking someone down flat. Floored kind of means the same thing, except it's usually a metaphor: "That guy's statement floored me." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:18, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sense added to Wiktionary. Dbfirs 19:36, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's stretching it a little, but tumble can be used as a transitive verb to mean both "cause to fall" and "have sexual intercourse with".- Ka renjc 19:46, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

These don't necessarily require a knockdown or horizontal position, but words like "nail", "hammer", "drill" and "pound" are used about equally in combat sports and porn. The North-south position, while not an idiom, is in a somewhat similar grey area between love and hate. InedibleHulk (talk) 16:55, May 29, 2013 (UTC)

"Bang" is an example that comes to mind. --Orange Mike | Talk 18:39, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That reminds me, I forgot "slam". Not a strike, but it lays someone out on their back. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:10, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

Insanitary or unsanitary?

An editor has just amended an article that I started - SS Navemar - and changed "insanitary conditions" to "unsanitary conditions". Any thoughts? Alansplodge (talk) 14:21, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, under insanitary, Wiktionary has "Common misspelling of unsanitary". Does that help? - Cucumber Mike (talk) 14:29, 28 May 2013 (UTC).[reply]

Yes, "unsanitary" is the proper term. I've heard of "insane", but never "insanitary". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:43, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've never heard of "insanitary" either, only "unsanitary". FWIW. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 14:44, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(UK English speaker here) I'm surprised that "insanitary" is considered "incorrect": it seems perfectly normal to me. Google hits are two-to-one in favour or "un-", but the OED has four citations for "in-" (going back to 1874) and two for "un-" (1872 - a line from Middlemarch). Maybe it's a UK-US difference, but here is an official-looking US document that uses "in-". AndrewWTaylor (talk) 14:59, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Insanitary" is not incorrect. It's uncorrect. μηδείς (talk) 15:57, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In an insanitarium. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:22, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Which just goes to show that local (rather than "US") officials are not necessarily English scholars. And I note that EO has no entry for "insanitary".[11] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:03, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) I'd say that's a fair assessment, and that insanitary is more of an alternative spelling than an incorrect one, albeit a less common one. Google Ngrams shows that, across the whole English corpus, insanitary was more usual before 1900, then unsanitary takes over until about 1925. From there, they're both about equally popular until the 70s, at which time unsanitary seems to become the established favourite. However, in American English, unsanitary has always been favoured, whereas in British English insanitary is the winner. So, yes, it is probably a question of dialect. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 15:09, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you all. As the article is about emigrants to the US, I suppose that the American English version is the right one. In my defence, see Exhibit "A": The District of Columbia - Board for the Condemnation of Insanitary Buildings (BCIB). Perhaps someone could amend Wiktionary in line with your collective findings? Alansplodge (talk) 16:44, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A side comment: in- and un- are not 'alternative' spellings. They are a cognate doublet (triplet with Greek a-, an-) meaning "not" and originating in the Proto-Indo-European language. The change from the fully Latinate insanitary to the mixed Germanic/Latinate unsanitary shows the nativization of the concept. μηδείς (talk) 18:00, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

However interesting the history of its development, I am gobsmacked to see anyone referring to insanitary as "wrong" or a "misspelling". As Cucumber Mike kindly demonstrated, it has a long history in both the UK and the US, and is currently widely used in the UK, far more so than unsanitary, in fact. This is not the first time that this kind of query has attracted responses that boil down to: "That's wrong. I've never heard of it", when a minute's research would show otherwise. Without going through the whole Reference Desk thing again, it's worth noting that our personal language preferences do not trump established and accepted variants in other varieties of the shared language that divides us, and that we should provide references when we make authoritative-sounding pronouncements on anything. WP:ENGVAR definitely supports the use of unsanitary in this context, but we could have established that without giving incorrect and unreferenced kneejerk replies to the original question. - Ka renjc 18:05, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My minute's research was to go to Etymology Online, which didn't have a listing for "insanitary". Silly me, for believing a source. :( ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:41, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Precisely. It tells us nothing one way or the other. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. - Ka renjc 22:41, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the kind words, but I must point out, in everyone else's defence, that my first answer was where we got the idea that it's a misspelling. I agree with the rest of what you say, though - Cucumber Mike (talk) 18:09, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Interestingly, "insanitary" does not show a significantly lower usage than "unsanitary", at least according to Google Ngrams: [12]. There have even been some time periods when "insanitary" was the predominant form of the word; though since 1965 "unsanitary" has taken the clear lead, and the "insanitary" usage has been steadily dropping. --Jayron32 18:14, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ahem :-) - Cucumber Mike (talk) 18:20, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm surprised that the Wiktionary entry was not corrected long ago. I've now removed the claim of mis-spelling and added a usage note for American users. Dbfirs 19:28, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There are jokes about an "insanitary spectre" (~=sanitary inspector). Itsmejudith (talk) 11:21, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Reminds me of the sewer wisp from The Wizard of Id. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 12:07, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Ej", "icke", "inte"

What exactly is the difference between the words "ej", "icke" and "inte" in Swedish? I assume they all mean "not". The only one I learned at school was "inte". JIP | Talk 17:51, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This explains it reasonably well, I think:

"Swedish has three negations, inte, icke, ej, all meaning ‘not’. Inte is the most commonly used negation in Swedish. Both icke and ej are restricted to formal written language, icke is also found in compounds, where neither inte nor ej may be used: icke-våld ‘non-violence. Other words with negative meanings are ingalunda ‘by no means’, knappt, knappast ‘hardly’, omöjligen ‘not possibly’."

Basically, if in doubt, use inte. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 18:00, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree completely with Cucumber Mike with regards to Swedish as presently spoken in Sweden. In Finland Swedish (which I presume is the variety JIP is more accustomed to), it is quite possible that words that are considered somewhat stilted and archaic in Sweden (like icke and ej) are more commonplace, but I can't find anything on this online. Gabbe (talk) 18:54, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure if I understand you completely, but yes, you are right, I am far more accustomed to Finland Swedish than real Swedish. I have only ever learnt real Swedish when I have actually gone to Sweden, which I have done about ten to twenty times in my life. In Finland Swedish, "inte" is the only word for "not" I have ever encountered. In real Swedish, I have also encountered "ej" and "icke", which I have understood also mean "not", but I am still unaware of the exact distinction in usage. JIP | Talk 20:05, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The main difference is the words' formality. Inte is acceptable in all situations, but ej and icke are used in more formal language. So, whilst you might say to a colleague "Blockera inte utrymingsvägen", the signs on the Stockholm Metro say "Utrymingsväg få ej blockeras". Ej and icke are also apparently more common in prayers and bible verses. Finally, as above, icke can be used in the same way as English 'non-', such as icke-rökare (non-smokers) or icke-svenskar (non-Swedes). - Cucumber Mike (talk) 07:44, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Is icke (Danish ikke) related to the German kein? μηδείς (talk) 00:55, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure about the origin of the words, but the modern senses are subtly different, in that kein means 'no', 'nobody', or 'not', whereas icke means 'not' or 'non-'. The Swedish equivalent to kein is inga, whereas the German equivalent to icke is nicht. Of course, it's entirely possible that all these words (kein, nicht, inte, icke, inga) could be derived from the same root (Old Norse? Proto-Germanic?) and have diversified into their modern senses. I'm afraid I haven't been able to find a useful reference. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 07:54, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have always assumed that kein < nicht ein in the same way that -heit > keit after -ich n (e.g., möglichkeit). Of course I have no source or confirmation for that, which is why I am asking. μηδείς (talk) 12:22, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Responding to Medeis, kein comes not from "nicht ein" but from "nich ein", with "nich" meaning "and not" in Middle German. Your supposition about -keit is correct. In both cases syllable final /x/ was interpreted as syllable initial, where /x/ was possible only in certain dialects, whereas the standard form was /k/. As for ikke, it is not cognate with kein, but it is analogous. Ikke is a modern form of the old Norse ekki, which consisted of a compound combining the neuter form for "one" followed by a negative clitic -gi or -ki. [13] Engi/Inga incidentally are merely derived from the masculine form of the same compound in Old Norse. [14] For more on the -gi/ki clitic see p. 375 of this source. Likewise, German kein combines an adverbial negator with a form of the word meaning "one". Marco polo (talk) 19:15, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Very interesting--so ikke is actually related to ouk! μηδείς (talk) 20:41, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Us?

In some places in the north of England, speakers use a word that sounds like əz or ʌz where standard English would have "our" or "my". What is that word? Is it actually "us"? 86.160.209.9 (talk) 20:35, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yup. It is "us", though pronounced with a 'z': See Yorkshire dialect#Vocabulary and grammar. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:51, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

OK, thanks. 86.160.209.9 (talk) 22:46, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The English us and our are cognate to the German uns and unser which retain the earlier Proto-Germanic language form. English had a rule that deleted the -n- before -s or -f at the end of a syllable (compare five and fünf). There would have been a form user at some point, then splitting into the standard and Northern form. μηδείς (talk) 00:53, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've never heard it pronounced ʌz, only ʊz or əz. Another usage is "wer" for "our", but I don't know the geographical distribution of the usages. They are not distributed throughout Yorkshire, but us is used, I think, only around the Lancashire–Yorkshire boundary. Perhaps an expert can confirm the extent of the usage? Dbfirs 07:22, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(OP) ʌz may just be my not-very-accurate attempt at transcribing what I hear. 86.128.1.148 (talk) 13:15, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Round here in the English Midlands, the use of "us" in that way is quite common and pronounced with a final -z. --TammyMoet (talk) 18:30, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, that's interesting — I thought the usage was confined to parts of northern England. Presumably the pronunciation is ʌz in the Midlands? Dbfirs 06:10, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Brummie pronunciation of "bus" is more like "boozz" with the oo being the short vowel rather than the long vowel. (Not the exasperating version pronounced to rhyme with "fuck" either. Whoever thinks that "oo" is prounced "uh"? <rant over>) Sorry not good at IPA. --TammyMoet (talk) 10:02, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In London, "us" is sometimes used for "me", for example; "give us it here" means "give it to me". Famously in Devon, "Yur us be" means "here we are". Alansplodge (talk) 17:21, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

May 29

Mini-text standards

I was thinking about these, recently, and made a "Hierarchy of Minitext Standards" list.

1 emoticon ( :D )
four word film review (4 words)
Six-Word Memoirs (6 words)
twitter (140 characters)
txt msg limit (160 characters)
elevator pitch ( ~ 20–120 seconds of speech. ~ 4 sentences.)
haiku ( ~ 3 lines (5-7-5 syllables or 2-3-2 beats rec.))
minisaga (50 words, +15 for title)
drabble (100 words)
flash fiction ( ~ 300–1000 words)

etc...

Plus, related short writing forms?

"headline–>subhead–>lede" in News style writing.
Sayings, proverbs, adages, idioms, aphorims, etc tend to be very short (1 sentence or less).
our own Wikidata:Help:Description#Length ("2-12 words") and MOS:DABENTRY ("use sentence fragments").

Questions: Is there a collective term for these? Somewhere that they are already listed, or could/should be listed, on Wikipedia? (And do you have any items to add to the list? or references for further reading?) Much thanks. –Quiddity (talk) 00:10, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The broadest concept which already exists which could contain all of these ideas is perhaps semiotics, but that's a VERY broad concept. More specifically, philosopher and semiotician Marshall McLuhan studied this broad idea, though I don't know that it had a name, when he famously formulated the idea that The medium is the message, which is to say that more than the thought being conveyed, but the actual manner in which the thought is conveyed also has meaning, so for example, a tweet itself carries meaning that is different from, say, a blog, even though conceptually one can express the same general idea in a 140 character tweet as in a longer blog, but the very nature of the specific medium itself adds its own meaning to the idea being conveyed. I don't if there is any word that conveys this concept, but I think if you're looking for understanding the big ideas here, you could do worse than to start with McLuhan. --Jayron32 01:14, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

These links may be helpful.

—Wavelength (talk) 01:30, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In computer science the term "microtext" is often used -- however it also has a variety of alternate meanings outside of computer science, such as the use of microscopic fonts. Looie496 (talk) 01:33, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In newspapers (and here), I believe they call the intro to a story the "lede". This unusual spelling is to distinguish it from others meanings of "lead". See also wikt:hed. StuRat (talk) 16:45, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've corrected my example above to use "subhead->lede" (instead of "leader->intro"). Thanks, –Quiddity (talk) 23:00, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to all responders.

(FYI, I was prompted to finally post this, out of my scratchpad, by the various discussions at meta:Concise Wikipedia, which keep circling back to "we need a variety of lengths of summary, for each topic". I was hoping to discover a "name" for the various existing short forms.)

Would this list perhaps belong in a subsection of Constrained writing? I suspect the spectre of WP:OR will forbid it, for the moment, but... Further RSs or suggestions or assistance would be appreciated. –Quiddity (talk) 23:00, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

These pages might be helpful.

Letter Count / Character Count
Twitter Now Reducing Some Tweets To 117 Characters
Why does Twitter have a 140-character limit?
Twitter Lifts 140 Character Limit
Microblogging
Category:Microblogging
Constrained writing (Yes, the list might belong in a subsection of this article. I thought of the list being put there before I noticed your mention of the same idea.)

—Wavelength (talk) 23:06, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sadly, none of those sources use the word "Constrain" at all, which is why "haiku, tanka, and senryu" were removed from the article (according to the talkpage). "Length" appears to be something that the academics have not recognized as being a part of the purview of "Constrained" writing(?). I'm still looking, but... :/ –Quiddity (talk) 01:14, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Doubling Down

Phrase used most recently in American politics describing one's reaction in regard to a motivating event. The meaning of the phrase varies with the event but, generally, references a person's willingness to extend their commitment to a controversial stance even further, rather than retreating from the original stance taken. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wmmaine (talk • contribs) 15:01, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What's your question? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:03, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If you're asking about the origin of the expression, I believe it's a metaphor drawn from the card game of blackjack—see Blackjack#Player decisions. See also the Wiktionary entry. Deor (talk) 15:06, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So your analysis of the meaning is correct, they are both increasing their risk, and potential reward, when they "double down". StuRat (talk) 16:38, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Greek Spelling

I'm trying to spell "Pans Mayhem Hunting Club" in greek letters. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.79.132.178 (talk • contribs) 23:47, May 29, 2013‎

Παν'ς Μαυηεμ Ηυντινγ Κλυβ will work if all you want is approximate letters that are close to the English ones. But in real Greek you would use a double gamma γγ (gg) to indicate the "ng" sound, ou for the short "u" of hunting, and an apostrophe for the aitches, rather than the eta (Ηη) which I used. μηδείς (talk) 23:55, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Greek spelling is mostly phonemic and specific to the Greek language; there isn't a one-to-one correspondence between Latin and Greek letters. Because of this, there are a few questions you would need to answer first: (1) Ancient Greek or Modern Greek? (2) Do you just a transcription (which be read like the English words, but with a strong Greek accent) or a translation? (3) If you want a translation, is it indeed "Pan's Mayhem", with an apostrophe, as Medeis suggested? Lesgles (talk) 02:37, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Greek apostrophe mainly indicates the elision of a word-final vowel before another word beginning with a vowel (at least in ancient Greek)... AnonMoos (talk) 02:55, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Using χ for h is standard (look up John William Waterhouse in Greek to see this), μπ for b, νγκ for ng (look up Vitus Bering in Greek to see these). If I was making a straight transliteration of just what you wrote I would write: Πανς Μέιχεμ Χάντινγκ Κλαμπ. If I was making some literature in Greek, like a website, or other advertisement for the Greek market, I would do a semi-translation like Πάνoς Μέιχεμ Όμιλος Κυνηγιού, but that's just a guess, and I would get a native speaker to look at that. u definitely has no steady transliteration, sometimes u gets ου (as in Dublin), sometimes ε (as in Robert Burns), sometimes α (as in club), sometimes ιου (as in David Hume). --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 08:39, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

May 30

Polish and German speakers needed to check sources an article.

See Wikipedia:Help desk#German Minority Political Party in Poland and German Minority (political party). It appears that we have an article on a 'political party' that doesn't actually exist as such. Both the Polish-language [15] and German-language [16] Wikipedia articles linked to this article refer to an 'Election Committee', and not a political party. Could I ask for volunteers with the necessary language skills to check the relevant material, and confirm exactly what the situation is, so we can sort this mess out - the article talk page is probably the best place for this. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:54, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure if it's a political party, but it participates in elections. I think it's similar to the UDMR in Romania: not a party, but acting like one, since it is a representative body of a national minority. 109.99.71.97 (talk) 17:58, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Cancer village in China

What is "Cancer village in China" in Chinese (either traditional or simplified; preferably both)? Does Wikipedia have an Chinese article corresponding to "Cancer village in China"? Can the English article be improved with information from the Russian article?
—Wavelength (talk) 16:07, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

中国癌症村 (simplified). See this. 中國癌癥村 (traditional). Oda Mari (talk) 16:51, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a link to the article on this topic in the Chinese Wikipedia. zh:中國癌症村. Marco polo (talk) 17:20, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]