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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Sandstein (talk | contribs) at 16:30, 5 June 2014 (→‎Result concerning Buttons: cmt). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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    Buttons

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Buttons

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Future Perfect at Sunrise (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 10:58, 26 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Buttons (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    WP:ARBMAC#Discretionary sanctions
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
    was blocked in 2011 for edit-warring and misuse of "vandalism" accusations on similar Serbia-related topics
    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    • Warned today, prior to latest rv [2]
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    Editor evidently has a long-term pattern of routinely using edit-warring as their primary response to content disagreement. Before 2011, he even had a note describing his role on Wikipedia as "protects and monitors any and all pages concerning Serbia and Serbs from vandalism".

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
    [3]


    Discussion concerning Buttons

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Buttons

    Looks like I'm a little late to my own party. I think users: NE Ent and No Such User made compelling enough reasoning not to enforce D/S (my thanks to you both). Beyond that I'll add that I believe the nominating admin jumped the gun in targeting me exclusively when both users...

    IJA:

    and Bobrayner:

    were engaged in tag-team reverting even before I got to the main article in question. Neither of which have received any kind of warning this time but have been strongly warned for tag-team edit warring before. Although I will admit my involvement did not help the dispute. Buttons (talk) 03:55, 31 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    I hadn't checked my notifications or talk page before editing. Still, I'd like some clarification as well, because essentially anything I happen to remove (such as a misplaced comma for example) would be a "revert" of someones. As for Bobrayners spurious accusations of sock/meat puppetry on my part, the admins have my blessing to run a check user if they like, so we can put Bobrayners go-to cop out to rest. Buttons (talk) 20:30, 4 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Statement by NE Ent

    Close without action. 1) United_Regions_of_Serbia: Editors are expected to discuss disputed changes. Buttons initiated discussion at Talk:United_Regions_of_Serbia on 15 April. Give no one replied, they should allowed to make their edit. 2) Geography of Kosovo: (You don't have the authority to make that decision on your own) is a substantially different statement than I own the article. Per consensus, none of us have the ability to make a content decision "on our own." The reverts cited were different content. 3) 2008 Kosovo declaration of independence: Special:Contributions/TrinaryEarth is not a revert only account, and Buttons is participating in discussion at Talk:2008_Kosovo_declaration_of_independence#A_problem.

    Regretfully, a lame technicality: the DS notification provided is invalid per the current arbcom requirements at Wikipedia:AC/DS#Awareness_and_alert, which requires the notification template be posted unmodified. (I agree that's its a lame rule totally out of sync with our iar pillar, but ya'll will have to take that up with the committee). NE Ent 12:18, 26 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Statement by No such user

    As an active editor in this sensitive area, I think that the report is a bit hastily construed and does not offer substantial evidence. The United Regions of Serbia dispute is hardly under ARBMAC purview, and Buttons did discuss his changes, unlike his opponents. My general opinion about Buttons's editing is that he treads rather carefully and generally tries to obey policies, save for occasional intemperate revert (for which I plead guilty as well). Buttons does have an apparent pro-Serbian bias in the area, but likewise e.g. User:bobrayner and User:IJA, his opponents in this dispute, have a pro-Albanian bias. While I don't look positively at biased editing in general, we are all humans with opinions, and all of them are seasoned and productive editors. So far, nobody of them caused any significant disruption and they were able to contribute positively and respect consensus when it was formed. I don't think the dispute raises to the level where sanctions are required. This request should serve as reminder to all involved to do more discussion and less revert-warning. No such user (talk) 15:21, 27 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Statement by IJA

    For the record, I'd like to point out that I don't know Buttons, I've had very minimal contact with him/her. The article "2008 Kosovo declaration of independence" is on my watchlist. As with other Kosovo related articles, there is lots of controversy and disputes ect. The article is prone to vandalism and POV pushing ect, it comes with the terrain. This is why it is important that we should reach a consensus on issues. If you look at Button's contributions, you can see that his/her sole purpose is out to edit war and cause trouble. I'd like to point out that I've only reverted Buttons twice. I've encouraged him/her to reach a WP:CONSENSUS on the talk page, he/she was reluctant to even use the talk page for a while. I suppose there is some guilt on my behalf for allowing myself to get caught up in Button's edit warring campaign on Kosovo related articles, I'm an experienced editor and I should know better; Buttons went fishing and I took the bait. Buttons is now trying to shift the blame on me. I don't think Buttons has ever made a constructive edit during his/her time on wikipedia. Judging by Button's contributions, it is all edit warring, arguing and causing trouble on Kosovo and Serbia related articles. I also believe he/she is in violation of WP:SOCK, I believe that Buttons and TrinaryEarth are the same person, Irrelevantdetails is likely to be another sock account too. I don't believe I'm in a position to comment on the other articles which Buttons has been edit warring on as I've not been involved with them articles. There is however, definitely a pattern with these articles when it comes to Buttons. Kind regards IJA (talk) 11:19, 31 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    I must say, I'm really not happy about Sandstein's claim of edit warring. I must strongly object and deny any allegations of Edit Warring. During the month of May, I made four reverts. Two of the reverts were against TrinaryEarth aka a single purpose troll sock account, which has since been blocked. The other two reverts were against Buttons who I assumed to be a trouble making account.
    WP:EDITWAR states "Don't use edits to fight with other editors – disagreements should be resolved through discussion." On my second revert, I told Buttons to take this to the Talk Page. [12]. The dispute was then taken to the talk page and it was dealt with there in a conversation, not in the form of an edit war. Reverting Buttons twice in a 24 hour period does not constitute as "Edit Warring", I didn't even violate the 3RR. I reverted Buttons and told him/ her to go to the talk page, so we took it to the talk page and it was discussed there. The dispute avoided escalating into an edit war by discussing the issue on the talk page. If anything, I think this is a perfect example of avoiding an edit war.
    The facts are simple, there was a dispute on the article and it was taken to the talk page where the dispute cooled down/ ended. I really do not see how in a month of Sundays this can be perceived as edit warring. Kind regards IJA (talk) 09:51, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    This false accusation of edit warring has really annoyed me because it isn't true. In May I have made four reverts in total, in two separate incidents. The first two reverts were against a sock called "TrinaryEarth", reverting a sock is NOT edit warring so we can take these two reverts out of the equation. My remaining two reverts were against Buttons, my second of these two reverts asked for him/ her to get a consensus on the talk page; Buttons subsequently joined in an ongoing discussion on the talk page and the dispute cooled down and came to an end; this avoided an edit war. I made only two reverts in a 24 hour period and then went to the talk page to discuss things to find a solution there instead. We tried/ attempted to resolve our differences through discussion, we avoided edit warring because of this. You just have to take a look at the talk page, the evidence is all there for everyone to see. I never make more than two reverts on one article within 24 hour period, this is because I want to stay out of edit wars. I discussed the disagreement on the talk page instead of edit warring. I tried to discuss the issue instead of having edit fights. Kind regards IJA (talk) 14:50, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    @Joy: Fair enough mate, thanks for raising this. We did indeed once disagree on Pristina-Priština-Prishtina. However I'd like to use this opportunity to point out that we discussed our disagreements on our talk pages. This is more evidence which proves that I use talk pages to settle (or at least try to settle) disagreements. Kind regards IJA (talk) 21:58, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Buttons' first edit since receiving his/her sanctions was to partially revert this revet. Is this in line with the recent sanctions imposed on Buttons? IJA (talk) 18:13, 4 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Statement by bobrayner

    I surprised by Buttons' chutzpah: Accusing me and IJA of "tagteaming" when:

    • On one particular article, IJA and I both reverted obvious sockpuppets. TrinaryEarth (talk · contribs) is maybe Buttons, or Evlekis, or somebody else - there are so many different editors, sockpuppets, and meatpuppets pushing such ideas on en.wikipedia that it's difficult to be sure.
    • Buttons arrived at the article after being canvassed by an Evlekis sock; Evlekis got permablocked for sock- and meat-puppetry on these topics.
    • Buttons is still pushing the same POV as Evlekis - trying to insert a piece of legalese cherrypicked from a court document into the lede of 2008 Kosovo declaration of independence, which dramatically changes the tone of the lede, and in no way is it a fair summary of what's actually in the article, let alone reliable sources. I recognise that WP:AE focusses strongly on conduct rather than content, but just look at the mess which Buttons is trying to put in the article.
    • As with most such disputes, I tried starting a thread on the talkpage; when Buttons eventually went to the talkpage, they avoided the policy problems and instead attacked editors who disagree.
    • Just because multiple editors disagree with you doesn't mean that they're conspiring against you; there is a much simpler explanation. Many more people have reverted Buttons - not just me and IJA - and on various subjects that I've never touched before (example: [13] [14] [15]). Various other editors have warned Buttons about this revert habit. None of the bullet-points in the definition of tag-teaming apply to IJA and I; but they do apply to Buttons and associates.
    • Buttons has stalked me to other articles - for instance, when I cleaned up a dangling template inadvertently left by FPaS on Geography of Kosovo, Buttons immediately came to the article and reverted with a spurious edit summary. Buttons even followed me to Commons - their first edit was to revert my attempt to update a map. (Buttons promptly appeared in the middle of a dispute which was not linked from en.wiki; it's safe to assume there was some offsite canvassing). Or Brussels Agreement, or following my edits on obscure transport articles. When I reverted a sock on List of active separatist movements in Europe, Buttons suddenly came to the article and reinserted the same problematic content. Or how about Aleksandar Ranković, where Buttons suddenly appeared after I reverted an Evlekis-sock. The same happened at Constitution of Serbia. Elsewhere, when I reverted a problematic edit by Obozedalteima (talk · contribs) on Serbia in the Yugoslav Wars, Buttons magically appeared; their first edit on the page was to revert me. And so on. As with other examples, Buttons hadn't edited that article before. How am I guilty of tagteaming if it's Buttons (and socks and canvassers) who follow me around? Similarly, when Buttons systematically reverts other editors on other topics that I've no interest in, who is tagteaming there?
    • Buttons has also been canvassed to other disputes, such as this by Aleksa Lukic. Note that Aleksa Lukic also suddenly appeared on Commons to repeat Buttons' revert there.
    • Another sockpuppet, Irrelevantdetails, recently arrived to make pointy edits when Buttons didn't get their way. Considering the timestamps, and that the sock has good English skills, I assume it's Buttons rather than Evlekis. A checkuser might be enlightening. Yes, I reverted that sock too. No, that doesn't mean that I'm tagteaming.
    • IJA and I are both interested in similar topics, but it's very unusual that we make the same reverts - we usually go our own way (and we've disagreed on a couple of recent issues).
    • However, I'd like to underline that Buttons has done some great work in other areas where our edits intersect. For instance, many military inventory articles have quality problems, and Buttons has done fine work cleaning up those pages. I have no argument there. Similarly, Buttons improved this railway article that I wrote a while back. I would hope that Buttons can stop (or be stopped from) stalking and reverting me on politically controversial topics, but I don't want to stop productive edits elsewhere.
    • I would also share No such user's view that most work in these areas is now mostly consensual. Our past problems have mostly eased, although there is a problem elsewhere (with a couple of other editors) which I'm reluctant to bring to WP:AE. Normal editing is mostly productive nowadays, and I would advocate a light touch with any WP:AE sanctions. Although, of course, sockpuppets still deserve a block and perhaps a checkuser - that is (I hope) routine enforcement which shouldn't have to come to WP:AE.

    Sorry. I must borrow Pascal's apology; this response is so long because I do not have time to make it more concise. bobrayner (talk) 14:10, 1 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    I realise it's probably very bad form to disagree with an arb, but sadly I must disagree a little here :-)
    Sandstein said "Their statements consist almost only of allegations of misconduct on the part of Buttons and others. This is irrelevant. Even if these allegations are true, they do not excuse the edit-warring by Bobrayner and IJA". However, as I mentioned earlier, I reverted socks. Out of the four diffs that Buttons provided, two were reverts of obvious socks - and if reverting a sockpuppet now counts as editwarring then we may as well all quit Balkans topics now and let the blocked & banned editors have free rein - whilst the remaining two were reverts of longstanding editors who should have known better. I freely admit to those two reverts - one revert of Antidiskriminator, and one revert of Buttons who had been canvassed by Evlekis.
    Both those reverts removed attempts to distort the lede of an article by adding a legal disclaimer cherrypicked from a primary source. (Conversely, when a source doesn't fit Buttons' POV, WP:V suddenly becomes a very high bar - the Economist isn't acceptable, noted scholars published in university presses aren't acceptable, and so on). Yes, I made those two reverts, one on 21 April and one on 17 May. If two edits separated by four weeks really count as editwarring, then I must admit fully and honestly to editwarring, express my frustration that the rules have become so strict, and pray fervently that the editors who add this kind of pov-pushing daily will be held to a similar standard.
    Could we clarify - if an editor follows me round and finds new pages on which to revert me, does that count as tag-teaming on my part? I hope not. bobrayner (talk) 18:57, 1 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    I should point out that Buttons's comments about prior editwarring and warnings are deeply deceptive, too.
    Evlekis had a habit of using socks to edit-war with adversaries, then immediately filing a report on Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring, hoping to get the adversary blocked. (I can provide diffs of other examples if required, but am trying to avoid getting derailed here; please let me know if you want examples involving me, or other editors). That is exactly what happened in the case that Buttons links to; IJA and I both reverted an obvious Evlekis sock. Reverts of a sockpuppet do not count towards 3RR, of course, and the closing admin certainly didn't use the words that Buttons puts in their mouth. Buttons now tries to pretend that this was an actual 3RR violation, and conceals the fact that IJA and I were both reverting an Evlekis sock, and tries to use this to get sanctions against us; clearly, Buttons has completely taken up the baton from Evlekis. It's quite devious; I wouldn't blame any admin for failing to spot this sleight of hand.
    Buttons: You weren't involved in that particular Evlekis-outbreak, and have never edited the affected article, and old WP:ANEW threads are very obscure. So, it looks like somebody gave you a diff that could be used to misrepresent my actions and get me sanctioned. Somebody who has previously canvassed you in a similar way; somebody who had a habit of passing diffs to allies that could be used to make adversaries look bad; somebody who had a history of abusing WP:ANEW to get adversaries blocked; somebody whose edits you have repeated; somebody who controlled the sockpuppet that IJA and I were reverting. bobrayner (talk) 12:44, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    I realise that nobody's going to thank me for cleaning up after sockpuppets - it's earned me a couple of stalkers - but I would be very disappointed if it earned me sanctions. Anyway, let's look at something new.
    Although it's removing content that's obviously true and would be easy to source, there's no way I'm walking into that trap; will leave it to other editors... bobrayner (talk) 00:46, 4 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning Buttons

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

    As discussed by NE Ent, we may not act on this request because the warning was not provided in the form required by the Arbitration Committee, and no evidence of how Button might otherwise have been aware of discretionary sanctions is provided. The complainant should alert Buttons with the required template, {{Ds/alert}}, and may resubmit this request if problems persist. I offer no opinion on the merits of the request, which I have not read in detail because of the abovementioned formal problem.  Sandstein  16:09, 26 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    @Sandstein, NE Ent, and EdJohnston: That warning issued by Toddst1 does count under the continuity section of the new discretionary sanctions procedures. As it is a warning issued under the old system so it becomes an alert for twelve months after the new DS procedure passed. Callanecc (talkcontribslogs) 11:50, 27 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Callanecc, thanks for catching this, you're right. Then I suppose we should wait for a statement by Buttons.  Sandstein  12:58, 27 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    I really fail to see the point in you trying to enforce this twelve month limit preemptively. If someone was informed in 2009 of a set of rules set forth in 2007, they can now claim that they are magically no longer informed of those rules in May 2015, and then again 366 days later in 2016, etc etc, ... which may just become ridiculous. If an editor accused of wrongdoing says explicitly that they're unaware of the rules to be enforced, and nobody reasonably disputes that, and the assumption of good faith is maintained overall, then they can avoid sanction. If we actively dismiss complaints on technicalities, this will have the effect of encouraging people to game the system. This is not a legal system and we should not try to replicate one. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 19:24, 27 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    This was argued out by Arbcom (for what seems like forever) with lots of chances for the community to offer input. Anyway it doesn't change the situation for User:Buttons because he is still on notice even with the new rules, per Callanecc's observation. EdJohnston (talk) 03:54, 28 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    I can't help but notice a double standard. We're supposed to allow people this much leeway with regard to failure to respect these common rules, but when those rules are changed for the worse, then tough luck, you had your chance to complain already, now go away? That's just an exercise in putting letter before the spirit of the rules, and it's really pointless. The practical result of this will be that every time I notice here that someone has gone through that kind of an instant evasion of an AE Balkans block, I will have to exercise my general admin discretion to sanction any abuse. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 13:18, 28 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Joy, I agree that the rules regarding expiring alerts are a bad idea, but this is not the place to argue about that, we need to follow the rules that we have, not the ones we may wish we had. On the merits, the report establishes that Buttons has engaged in slow edit-warring. This is sanctionable misconduct, and I recommend the following sanction: with respect to content related to Kosovo or Serbia, Buttons may not undo any revert. I agree that TrinaryEarth should be blocked as an account apparently created to evade scrutiny or sanctions, and am doing so.  Sandstein  15:44, 28 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Buttons has not addressed their own edit-warring in their statement. A sanction that prevents Buttons from repeating such conduct is therefore indicated. As discussed above, Buttons is banned from undoing any revert with respect to content related to Kosovo or Serbia for the duration of a year. But Buttons also supplies evidence of tag-team edit-warring by Bobrayner and IJA, conduct against which the two were specifically warned. As is apparent from the sanctions log, both are aware of discretionary sanctions. I therefore invite Bobrayner and IJA to make a statement giving reasons why they should not likewise be sanctioned.  Sandstein  07:10, 31 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    I would appreciate comments by other administrators about whether Bobrayner and IJA should also be sanctioned. I am of the view that this is likely necessary. Their statements consist almost only of allegations of misconduct on the part of Buttons and others. This is irrelevant. Even if these allegations are true, they do not excuse the edit-warring by Bobrayner and IJA.  Sandstein  16:50, 1 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    I think I have to recuse myself from commenting on that point because I remember recently having had a rather acrimonious discussion with user IJA about a Kosovo-related topic (1981 protests in Kosovo) at User talk:Joy/Archive/2014#Your revert / User:IJA/Archive 8#Re: Your revert. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 19:55, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • It may be time to close this. Sandstein's one-year revert restriction on Buttons is appropriate. TrinaryEarth has been blocked. Based on the limited evidence here I'm not seeing a case to sanction Bobrayner or IJA, but I would listen to other suggestions. EdJohnston (talk) 23:39, 4 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • As noted by Bobrayner, Buttons has already violated their revert restriction. Their explanation that they did not check their talk page is not sufficient, because we cannot verify this claim. I am blocking Buttons for a week in enforcement of the restriction. As to Bobrayner and IJA, I am concerned that they do not seem to understand that it is never acceptable to edit-war even in the face of misconduct by others. However, there is an exception for reverting sockpuppetry in WP:3RRNO, and some of the editors they reverted were later blocked as socks, so this might be a sufficiently borderline case to forego sanctions at this time.  Sandstein  16:30, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]