Talk:Donald Trump

Highlighted open discussions

• #RfC: "perceived" or "characterized" as racist
• #Trim second paragraph in lead
• #Proposal to streamline lead re false and misleading statements

NOTE: It is recommended to link to this list in your edit summary when reverting, as:
[[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus|current consensus]] item [n]
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01. Use the official White House portrait as the infobox image. (Dec 2016, Jan 2017, Oct 2017, March 2020) (temporarily suspended by #19 following copyright issues on the inauguration portrait, enforced when an official public-domain portrait was released on 31 October 2017)

02. Show birthplace as "Queens, New York City, U.S." in the infobox. (Nov 2016, Oct 2018, Feb 2021) "New York City" de-linked. (September 2020)

03. Omit reference to county-level election statistics. (Dec 2016)

04. Superseded by #15

Lead phrasing of Trump "gaining a majority of the U.S. Electoral College" and "receiving a smaller share of the popular vote nationwide", without quoting numbers. (Nov 2016, Dec 2016) (Superseded by #15 since 11 February 2017)

05. Use Trump's annual net worth evaluation and matching ranking, from the Forbes list of billionaires, not from monthly or "live" estimates. (Oct 2016) In the lead section, just write: Forbes estimates his net worth to be [$x.x] billion. (July 2018, July 2018) Removed from the lead per #47.

06. Do not include allegations of sexual misconduct in the lead section. (June 2016, Feb 2018)

07. Superseded by #35

Include "Many of his public statements were controversial or false." in the lead. (Sep 2016, February 2017, wording shortened per April 2017, upheld with July 2018) (superseded by #35 since 18 February 2019)

08. Mention that Trump is the first president elected "without prior military or government service". (Dec 2016)

09. Include a link to Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2017) Include a link to an archive of Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2021)

10. Canceled

Keep Barron Trump's name in the list of children and wikilink it, which redirects to his section in Family of Donald Trump per AfD consensus. (Jan 2017, Nov 2016) Canceled: Barron's BLP has existed since June 2019. (June 2024)

11. Superseded by #17

The lead sentence is "Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American businessman, television personality, politician, and the 45th President of the United States." (Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Feb 2017) (superseded by #17 since 2 April 2017)

12. The article title is Donald Trump, not Donald J. Trump. (RM Jan 2017, RM June 2019)

13. Auto-archival is set for discussions with no comments for 14 days. Manual archival is allowed for (1) closed discussions, 24 hours after the closure, provided the closure has not been challenged, and (2) "answered" edit requests, 24 hours after the "answer", provided there has been no follow-on discussion after the "answer". (Jan 2017) (amended with respect to manual archiving, to better reflect common practice at this article) (Nov 2019)

14. Omit mention of Trump's alleged bathmophobia/fear of slopes. (Feb 2017)

15. Superseded by lead rewrite

Supersedes #4. There is no consensus to change the formulation of the paragraph which summarizes election results in the lead (starting with "Trump won the general election on November 8, 2016, …"). Accordingly the pre-RfC text (Diff 8 Jan 2017) has been restored, with minor adjustments to past tense (Diff 11 Feb 2018). No new changes should be applied without debate. (RfC Feb 2017, Jan 2017, Feb 2017, Feb 2017) In particular, there is no consensus to include any wording akin to "losing the popular vote". (RfC March 2017) (Superseded by local consensus on 26 May 2017 and lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017)

16. Superseded by lead rewrite

Do not mention Russian influence on the presidential election in the lead section. (RfC March 2017) (Superseded by lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017)

17. Superseded by #50

Supersedes #11. The lead paragraph is "Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is the 45th and current president of the United States. Before entering politics, he was a businessman and television personality." The hatnote is simply {{Other uses}}. (April 2017, RfC April 2017, April 2017, April 2017, April 2017, July 2017, Dec 2018) Amended by lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017 and removal of inauguration date on 4 July 2018. Lower-case "p" in "president" per Dec 2018 and MOS:JOBTITLES RfC Oct 2017. Wikilinks modified per April 2020. Wikilink modified again per July 2020. "45th" de-linked. (Jan 2021)

18. Superseded by #63

The "Alma mater" infobox entry shows "Wharton School (BS Econ.)", does not mention Fordham University. (April 2017, April 2017, Aug 2020, Dec 2020)

19. Obsolete

Following deletion of Trump's official White House portrait for copyright reasons on 2 June 2017, infobox image was replaced by File:Donald Trump Pentagon 2017.jpg. (June 2017 for replacement, June 2017, declined REFUND on 11 June 2017) (replaced by White House official public-domain portrait according to #1 since 31 Oct 2017)

20. Mention protests in the lead section with this exact wording: His election and policies have sparked numerous protests. (June 2017, May 2018) (Note: In February 2021, when he was no longer president, the verb tense was changed from "have sparked" to "sparked", without objection.)

21. Superseded by #39

Omit any opinions about Trump's psychology held by mental health academics or professionals who have not examined him. (July 2017, Aug 2017) (superseded by #36 on 18 June 2019, then by #39 since 20 Aug 2019)

22. Do not call Trump a "liar" in Wikipedia's voice. Falsehoods he uttered can be mentioned, while being mindful of calling them "lies", which implies malicious intent. (RfC Aug 2017, upheld by RfC July 2024)

23. Superseded by #52

The lead includes the following sentence: Trump ordered a travel ban on citizens from several Muslim-majority countries, citing security concerns; after legal challenges, the Supreme Court upheld the policy's third revision. (Aug 2017, Nov 2017, Dec 2017, Jan 2018, Jan 2018) Wording updated (July 2018) and again (Sep 2018).

24. Superseded by #30

Do not include allegations of racism in the lead. (Feb 2018) (superseded by #30 since 16 Aug 2018)

25. In citations, do not code the archive-related parameters for sources that are not dead. (Dec 2017, March 2018)

26. Do not include opinions by Michael Hayden and Michael Morell that Trump is a "useful fool […] manipulated by Moscow" or an "unwitting agent of the Russian Federation". (RfC April 2018)

27. State that Trump falsely claimed that Hillary Clinton started the Barack Obama birther rumors. (April 2018, June 2018)

28. Include, in the Wealth section, a sentence on Jonathan Greenberg's allegation that Trump deceived him in order to get on the Forbes 400 list. (June 2018, June 2018)

29. Include material about the Trump administration family separation policy in the article. (June 2018)

30. Supersedes #24. The lead includes: "Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist." (RfC Sep 2018, Oct 2018, RfC May 2019)

31. Do not mention Trump's office space donation to Jesse Jackson's Rainbow/Push Coalition in 1999. (Nov 2018)

32. Omit from the lead the fact that Trump is the first sitting U.S. president to meet with a North Korean supreme leader. (RfC July 2018, Nov 2018)

33. Do not mention "birtherism" in the lead section. (RfC Nov 2018)

34. Refer to Ivana Zelníčková as a Czech model, with a link to Czechs (people), not Czechoslovakia (country). (Jan 2019)

35. Superseded by #49

Supersedes #7. Include in the lead: Trump has made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. The statements have been documented by fact-checkers, and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics. (RfC Feb 2019)

36. Superseded by #39

Include one paragraph merged from Health of Donald Trump describing views about Trump's psychology expressed by public figures, media sources, and mental health professionals who have not examined him. (June 2019) (paragraph removed per RfC Aug 2019 yielding consensus #39)

37. Resolved: Content related to Trump's presidency should be limited to summary-level about things that are likely to have a lasting impact on his life and/or long-term presidential legacy. If something is borderline or debatable, the resolution does not apply. (June 2019)

38. Do not state in the lead that Trump is the wealthiest U.S. president ever. (RfC June 2019)

39. Supersedes #21 and #36. Do not include any paragraph regarding Trump's mental health or mental fitness for office. Do not bring up for discussion again until an announced formal diagnosis or WP:MEDRS-level sources are provided. This does not prevent inclusion of content about temperamental fitness for office. (RfC Aug 2019, July 2021)

40. Include, when discussing Trump's exercise or the lack thereof: He has called golfing his "primary form of exercise", although he usually does not walk the course. He considers exercise a waste of energy, because he believes the body is "like a battery, with a finite amount of energy" which is depleted by exercise. (RfC Aug 2019)

41. Omit book authorship (or lack thereof) from the lead section. (RfC Nov 2019)

42. House and Senate outcomes of the impeachment process are separated by a full stop. For example: He was impeached by the House on December 18, 2019, for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress. He was acquitted of both charges by the Senate on February 5, 2020. (Feb 2020)

43. The rules for edits to the lead are no different from those for edits below the lead. For edits that do not conflict with existing consensus: Prior consensus is NOT required. BOLD edits are allowed, subject to normal BRD process. The mere fact that an edit has not been discussed is not a valid reason to revert it. (March 2020)

44. The lead section should mention North Korea, focusing on Trump's meetings with Kim and some degree of clarification that they haven't produced clear results. (RfC May 2020)

45. Superseded by #48

There is no consensus to mention the COVID-19 pandemic in the lead section. (RfC May 2020, July 2020) (Superseded by RfC Aug 2020)

46. Use the caption "Official portrait, 2017" for the infobox image. (Aug 2020, Jan 2021)

47. Do not mention Trump's net worth or Forbes ranking (or equivalents from other publications) in the lead, nor in the infobox. (Sep 2020)

48. Supersedes #45. Trump's reaction to the COVID-19 pandemic should be mentioned in the lead section. There is no consensus on specific wording, but the status quo is Trump reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic; he minimized the threat, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, and promoted false information about unproven treatments and the availability of testing. (Oct 2020, RfC Aug 2020)

49. Supersedes #35. Include in lead: Trump has made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politics. (Dec 2020)

50. Supersedes #17. The lead sentence is: Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician, media personality, and businessman who served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. (March 2021), amended (July 2021), inclusion of politician (RfC September 2021)

51. Include in the lead that many of Trump's comments and actions have been characterized as misogynistic. (Aug 2021 and Sep 2021)

52. Supersedes #23. The lead should contain a summary of Trump's actions on immigration, including the Muslim travel ban (cf. item 23), the wall, and the family separation policy. (September 2021)

53. The lead should mention that Trump promotes conspiracy theories. (RfC October 2021)

54. Include in the lead that, quote, Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in U.S. history. (RfC October 2021)

55. Regarding Trump's comments on the 2017 far-right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, do not wiki-link "Trump's comments" in this manner. (RfC December 2021)

56. Retain the content that Trump never confronted Putin over its alleged bounties against American soldiers in Afghanistan but add context. Current wording can be altered or contextualized; no consensus was achieved on alternate wordings. (RfC November 2021) Trump's expressions of doubt regarding the Russian Bounties Program should be included in some capacity, though there there is no consensus on a specific way to characterize these expressed doubts. (RfC March 2022)

57. Do not mention in the lead Gallup polling that states Trump's the only president to never reach 50% approval rating. (RfC January 2022)

58. Use inline citations in the lead for the more contentious and controversial statements. Editors should further discuss which sentences would benefit from having inline citations. (RfC May 2022, discussion on what to cite May 2022)

59. Do not label or categorize Trump as a far-right politician. (RfC August 2022)

60. Insert the links described in the RfC January 2023.

61. When a thread is started with a general assertion that the article is biased for or against Trump (i.e., without a specific, policy-based suggestion for a change to the article), it is to be handled as follows:

1. Reply briefly with a link to Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias.
2. Close the thread using {{archive top}} and {{archive bottom}}, referring to this consensus item.
3. Wait at least 24 hours per current consensus #13.
4. Manually archive the thread.

This does not apply to posts that are clearly in bad faith, which are to be removed on sight. (May 2023)

62. The article's description of the five people who died during and subsequent to the January 6 Capitol attack should avoid a) mentioning the causes of death and b) an explicit mention of the Capitol Police Officer who died. (RfC July 2023)

63. Supersedes #18. The alma mater field of the infobox reads: "University of Pennsylvania (BS)". (September 2023)

64. Omit the {{Very long}} tag. (January 2024)

65. Mention the Abraham Accords in the article; no consensus was achieved on specific wordings. (RfC February 2024)

66. Omit {{infobox criminal}}. (RfC June 2024)

67. The "Health habits" section includes: "Trump says he has never drunk alcohol, smoked cigarettes, or used drugs. He sleeps about four or five hours a night." (February 2021)

"Many of his comments and actions have been perceived as racially charged or racist."

Since this is listed above in the current consensus section, I'm not going to attempt to change this without a discussion, but I think we should change the word from "perceived" to "characterized". It's very difficult to know what someone actually perceives, but it's certainly true that reliable sources have characterized some of his statements as racially charged or racist. Does anyone have a problem with this one-word change? Rreagan007 (talk) 21:16, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

May God have mercy upon your soul. PackMecEng (talk) 21:21, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

Good catch Rreagan007. Seems like a good idea to me. Gandydancer (talk) 21:34, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

I'll do you one better: let's just remove "perceived as". That would be factual, verifiable, and a win-win.- MrX 🖋 21:40, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

No: that would substantially change the meaning of the phrase, and thus go against the nuanced RfC consensus. — JFG ^talk 08:38, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Yes, that was kind of the point, otherwise why are we having this discussion?- MrX 🖋 21:33, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

"Characterized" is better, but not beholden to that. Many do "perceive" his comments as racially charged and or simply racist. I personally would not "characterize" it as that but I'm not a reliable source.--MONGO (talk) 21:44, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

Indeed, "characterized" is more factual than "perceived". — JFG ^talk 08:37, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

• "Perceived" is better because it is the perception that matters, not the characterization. "Characterized" is what you would say if you didn't take the characterization seriously for whatever reason. zzz (talk) 11:30, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Support "characterized". Per OP, what we can see is more important than what we think we can infer. ―Mandruss ☎ 11:59, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

• No, it should remain as "perceived" per our original discussion. "Characterized" would be fine if we were talking about how a single reliable source reported it; however, we were talking about a preponderance of reliable sources. An overwhelming number of these sources described Trump's comments and actions as racially charged or racist, so being the good little Wikipedians that we are we watered it down to "perceived". Using "characterized" would give the false impression this wasn't a prevailing view. I stridently object to this proposed change. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:10, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

I fail to see how using the verb "characterized" would somehow give a "false impression this wasn't a prevailing view." Anything we write in the lead section is supposed to reflect the prevailing WP:DUE descriptions of the subject matter in RS, and we can state clearly that a lot of sources did characterize Trump's utterances as "racially charged" or plain racist. If you'll allow me to follow your "good little Wikipedians" trope, "characterized" is a lot less watered-down than "perceived". It also fits with the RfC outcome, in which the closer stated: feel free to tweak the wording, as necessary by normal t/p discourse. In the followup to that RfC, you yourself suggested to replace "perceived as" with "described as",[1] and that's almost synonymous with "characterized". — JFG ^talk 13:45, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Your last point is a strong one, in my opinion. Merriam-Webster lists "describe" as a synonym for "characterize". While their synonyms lists often seem loose and lacking in nuance, I think the definition (entry 1) suggests that the two words are pretty much interchangeable for this purpose, "characterize" being a fancier word for "describe" in this context. As you know from experience (phenomenon), I'm always opposed to applying connotations not supported by the dictionary. ―Mandruss ☎ 14:05, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Synonyms for perceived: look on, view, regard, consider, think of, judge, deem, appraise, assess, adjudge, figure (out), size up, value, rate, suppose, think, sum up, weigh up

"he was perceived as too negative"

Or: "he was characterized as too negative"

I'd say that "perceived" suggests opinions that may not actually be correct while "characterized" suggests a more grounded summation. I think...:=) Gandydancer (talk) 13:35, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

• Just to put a more concrete example on the differences between "perceived" and "characterized". "Perceive" seems to be a more subjective, individual act, whereas "characterized" is more of an objective, collective term. You would never say "reliable sources perceive Trumps statements as racist", but you would say "reliable sources characterize Trumps statements as racist". Rreagan007 (talk) 19:42, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

  No, that's not what is meant by "perceived" in the way it is used. It is intended to briefly state that reliable sources report that Trump's actions and comments have been perceived by most people to have been racist and/or racially charged, not perceived by reliable sources. It's the perception of the people, not the perception of the media. That's why "characterized" won't work, because that would refer to how the media is describing Trump. I think people in this thread are confused by who is doing the perceiving/characterizing, and perhaps that is the true failure of the sentence in its current form. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:49, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

  But how do reliable sources know what most people actually perceive? Perception is a subjective judgment, and the only person who truly knows how they are perceiving things is the person doing the perceiving. Someone writing about the perceptions of people other than himself would never be able to truly know what those other people were perceiving. Also, can you provide the reliable sources that say most people perceive his comments to be racist? Rreagan007 (talk) 21:17, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

  It is not for us to decide how reliable sources know. It is enough that reliable sources say they know. If we are going to second guess reliable sources, Wikipedia is basically dead as a useful project. And no, I'm not going to go back and look up all the reliable sources because this was done already when a consensus formed around the current language. If you want to change that consensus, it is incumbent upon you to provide sources that back up that change. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:28, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

  But the problem is that it is impossible for reliable sources to know what the subjective perceptions of other people actually are, because there is no way to independently verify the thoughts of another person. So if you still want to use "perceived" we would have to change the wording to something like "Many of his comments and actions have been claimed to have been perceived as racially charged or racist." Rreagan007 (talk) 21:42, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

  You're missing the point entirely. As Wikipedian's we must assume the reliable sources have reported these perceptions as fact (presumably through polling, etc.) and not try to second guess them. If we try to interpret these sources ourselves, putting in qualifiers like "claimed" in there to satisfy editors unhappy with reliable sources, we are engaging in original research. I understand some editors do not like the "mainstream media" from where most of our reliable sources come from, but that is just too bad because Wikipedia relies on those sources almost entirely. If you want to question the reporting of such sources, perhaps this isn't the right project for you. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:48, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

That's a valid point in epistemology, but ordinary language operates under the assumption that the thoughts of other people are knowable to some degree. Philosophers will tell you that we have no way to verify anything, since all we have access to are our own perceptions. TFD (talk) 22:40, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Scjessey: I seriously doubt anybody could produce evidence that the preponderance of reliable sources support "perceived" to the exclusion of other words like "described" and "characterized". The fact is that "trying to interpret these sources ourselves" is what we all do, routinely, when it comes to the choice of specific nuanced words to use in paraphrasing those sources. Your own reasoning is loaded with what you call original research. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:41, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

(Re-indenting) I'm sorry, maybe I missed it, but is there a specific suggestion for a change in wording here? Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 22:34, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Yes, change from "Many of his comments and actions have been perceived as racially charged or racist." to "Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist." Rreagan007 (talk) 20:59, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

I agree that “characterized” is a more accurate statement. Tycoon24 (talk) 17:38, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

@Tycoon24: See the open RfC on this below. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:51, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

No obvious consensus here. I'll start an RfC. — JFG ^talk 06:21, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Mueller report in the lead

I love how the last paragraph was removed despite the fact that the vote was a tie. Please restore it, and make sure to reflect the recently released Mueller report because now that it's been established without a shadow of a doubt that Trump attempted to obstruct justice, it would be irresponsible for a summary of his presidency to not reflect that. 50.69.26.77 (talk) 15:13, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

It has already been restored.[2] ―Mandruss ☎ 15:16, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

My mistake - I got a little confused and thought this discussion pertained to mention of the Mueller investigation. Why was that removed? it seems important to include at least a reference to it, and what Mueller was able to find regarding Trump's conduct in regards to the investigation 50.69.26.77 (talk) 15:18, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

I assume you're referring to this removal. See that edit summary for the rationale. Since this is completely off-topic here, I'm making it a separate thread. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:22, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

I don't particularly find that rationale sufficient to warrant leaving such a crucial moment in the Trump presidency to be left out. Especially considering this President has now been discovered to have openly obstructed justice and attempted to interfere with an ongoing investigation according to Bob Mueller, it must be reflected in the summary. 50.69.20.91 (talk) 14:36, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

I disagree, obviously. Fundamentals of Wikipedia editing (NOTNEWS, no deadline, lead summarizes body, etc.) always trump editors' desire to get the "truth" about Trump into the lead of this article, where it will enjoy maximum visibility, NOW. I'm always skeptical of editors claiming urgency to include content. Others may differ, and I defer to consensus, but as of now yours is the only objection to an edit made five days ago. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:07, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Again - if that were the case then why include mentions of Watergate into Nixon's page? Because it was a very significant moment that defined his presidency. This is too important to leave out - and if you disagree, that's fine - but there should be a poll. Any harm in that or is it really important to you not to have the obstruction of justice mentioned in the headline?

Edit: It wouldn't take a particularly long paragraph either. I just feel it's relevant to note that there was an investigation and Bob Mueller had determined that Trump, during the course of the probe - attempted to interfere with the investigation but could not confirm that the Trump campaign colluded with the Russians either. I would argue that it's important to note it especially considering the misinformation floating around about the investigation, this would allow readers unfamiliar with the report's findings to easily access the basic summary of it, which is honestly what a summary page is intended for in the first place - to summarize the facts, and as it stands these facts are incredibly important. 50.69.20.91 (talk) 17:43, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

You seem intelligent enough. I'm having trouble understanding why you're having so much trouble understanding me. The edit summary and my comments have been about process, not content. I don't care a whit if the content gets into the lead—that is, aside from my opinion that the lead devotes too much space to his presidency, which has gained no traction—what I care about is that it gets done in the right way, and with no sense of urgency (this is an encyclopedia, not a news summary service). Seven days have now passed, so my "Step 1" is at least minimally complete and I'm willing to concede the second week. Step 2: Decide what related content to include in the body, at the end of Donald Trump#Special Counsel investigation. This must come before lead content because lead summarizes body—we have to know what we're summarizing before we can decide how to summarize it. That section currently ends at: "On April 18, 2019, a redacted version of the final Mueller Report was released to the public." and it obviously needs more. So we can get started on Step 2, and I generally leave that kind of thing to others who are better at it. If you feel up to it, feel free to start discussion about that, preferably separately. Once we have body content that is somewhat stable, we can move on to Step 3: what, if anything, to put in the lead. I wouldn't be at all surprised or upset if it took us 4–6 more weeks to complete the process. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:51, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

My mistake, I now see your new thread attempting to combine steps 2 and 3. Had I known you weren't waiting for a response, I wouldn't have spent 30 minutes of my time writing one. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:21, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

I seems extreme not to mention the Mueller report in any form in the lead. I can't really see a coherent explanation on the Talk pages. I don't know where User:Mandruss came up with the 3 Step approach. We routinely mention topics in the lead while still working on the body. In fact, creating an article would be impossible otherwise! The weeks are going by. I don't see any process underway. It is absurd that the Mueller investigation was mentioned in the lead before the report was release and now it isn't.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:12, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

I don't see any process underway. There's this, which you saw four days ago.[3] ―Mandruss ☎ 13:50, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

That discussion seems to be mostly about having a paragraph on Mueller in the lead. I don't see a consensus against a mere mention.--Jack Upland (talk) 20:28, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

AFAIK the section heading and the opening comment define what it's about. Both refer to body as well as lead. So yes, there is a process underway and there is no urgency per above, although it may well take longer in the long run because of the decision to combine body and lead into one discussion. We can have fast or good, but not both. I'll be a strong opponent of any lead content that does not summarize related body content. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:35, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

I can't see a problem with having an sentence in the interim.--Jack Upland (talk) 20:52, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Then we'll have to agree to disagree. Lead summarizes body, always. Readers are going to be reading the article in the interim. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:10, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Yes,readers are going to be reading the article in the interim. Lead summarizes body, always. So put Mueller in the lead in the interim.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:19, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

RfC: "perceived" or "characterized" as racist

Should the lead sentence about Trump's purported racism use the verb "perceived", or "characterized"? 07:43, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Please read the preliminary discussion about today's proposed change, the prior RfC that established the current wording (August 2018), and the followup discussion on amendments to the RfC wording. See also yet another earlier thread on racism (February 2018). — JFG ^talk 07:05, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Survey

Please state your preferred verb (perceived or characterized) with a short rationale. Longer arguments should go to the #Discussion section below.

• Characterized, as I believe that this more accurately reflects the preponderance of reliable sources describing Trump's comments as racist. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:15, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
• Characterized. If someone digs into the sources and figures out how many use one term versus the other, I'd like to know that. However in the absence of such data I prefer "characterized" since its about how Trump's behavior is described by reliable source rather than how it's seen by who knows whom. Everything every politician does and says is perceived a hundred different ways by a hundred different people, so passively saying something is perceived by unidentified people so insignificant as to be not worthy of inclusion. What's significant is how Trump's words and deeds are described by reputable outlets. R2 (bleep) 23:11, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
• Characterized Knowing what someone else actually perceives is not possible. Reliable sources report what other people have characterized Trumps comments as to them. It's also the case that reliable sources themselves have characterized his statements as racist, so "characterized" works for both reliable sources reporting on others characterizations or on reliable sources doing the characterizing themselves. "Perceived" doesn't work both ways. Rreagan007 (talk) 03:09, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
• Unchanged. What, This again? I think it doesn’t belong in LEAD for a number of reasons previously said, but I suggest de facto be given an edge. Especially with perceived VS characterized having been visited twice within a year, I suggest re-re-re asking the question should be discounted. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 04:35, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

  @Markbassett: Can you help me find where perceived VS characterized has been visited twice within a year? I don't see any of that in this archive search. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:20, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

User:Mandruss It’s discussed in a lot of places, with the 4 links at top (Feb 2018 to Apr 2019) being good choices, and I especially was looking at the thread above here and the Feb and Aug RFCs in thinking STATUS QUO of prior discussions and long-standing content should rule when there is this not-strong desire for change. One can also search archives for “racist” or “as racist” to find other discussions of ‘described’ (archive 19, 20) and ‘criticized’ (archive 71), ‘perceived as’ and even discussion in (archive 2). CheersMarkbassett (talk) 02:56, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

The only discussions I see on "perceived" vs "characterized" is this discussion and the one just above, of which this discussion is really just a more structured continuation of. So your claim that this particular issue has already been discussed twice in the past year seems misleading to me. Rreagan007 (talk) 07:52, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

I agree. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:57, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

• Characterized It's more than a perception, but how a reasonable person would characterize the comments. TFD (talk) 05:12, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
• Characterized – More factual than "perceived". Accurately reflects the prevailing WP:DUE descriptions of the subject matter in RS, which have indeed characterized Trump's utterances as "racially charged" or plain racist. — JFG ^talk 08:28, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
• Perceived (status quo) per Scjessey's comment in the previous discussion. Alternatively, we could drop "perceived as" to reflect the widely held viewpoint of a vast majority of reliable sources. "Characterized" appears to be a sly way to blame the media for bias against Trump, thus it violates WP:NPOV.- MrX 🖋 20:55, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

  appears to be a sly way to blame the media – this looks like your own characterization of this proposed change. — JFG ^talk 21:12, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

  Or you just perceive it that way. - MrX 🖋 21:51, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

  "Perceived" could be characterized as suggesting that the belief bears little connection to reality. It seems to me either qualification (hedge) can be spun in a way that would make one oppose it. Advocating removal of the hedge is one thing, but I don't see why one would assert one spin over the other. That's not to say that this is a pointless issue, necessarily. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:41, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

Yes, perceived is less than ideal also. I don't have a better solution that isn't also very wordy.- MrX 🖋 21:51, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

• Neither, with perceived as my second choice. - As documented by a preponderance of reliable sources, Trump has made multiple racist comments (not just "perceived" or "characterized") and taken actions of a racist nature (not just "perceived" or "characterized"). "Perceived" was already a compromise we came to in one of the previous RfCs documented above, and I think "characterized" waters that down even further. Trump is fond of speaking plainly, so it seems only reasonable for Wikipedia to extend him the same courtesy. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:03, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
• Characterized, although I don't think it matters much. Characterized connotes an expression, which is what our sources are doing. Characterized is more of an active word, while perceived is a passive word. But in the long run this is certainly not all that important. Cosmic Sans (talk) 17:22, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
• Characterized per Comic Sans. I would be happy to entertain the possibility of removing the hedge and using wiki voice, and I might even Support that—in an RfC that states that as on the table in its listings. The difference is substantial, and many editors reading the listings as written may well be passing this one by because it seems trivial to them. I don't think it would be a good idea to add that option to the listings of this RfC—the issues are too different and that would reduce the likelihood of a consensus for anything. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:05, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
• Characterized - Being a synonym of described, which is recommended in WP:SAY, it's the more neutral of the two. M.Bitton (talk) 23:41, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
• Characterized, it is a more objective descriptor following the sources included MinnesotaMuskrat (talk) 17:31, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
• Characterized is accurate and leaves less room for confusion than "perceived". – Muboshgu (talk) 17:36, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
• 'Neither' is accurate. Characterized indicates that they are described that way by some. Perceived means they are interpreted that way by some. As a matter of demonstrable fact, the man has exhibited clearly racist statements, so my preference would be to remove "perceived as" from the sentence altogether. Vertium ^{When all is said} _{and done} 14:33, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
• Neither per Scjessey and Vertium, though I prefer characterized if an option must be chosen. —⁠烏⁠Γ ^(kaw) │ 22:55, 02 May 2019 (UTC)
• Characterized. While both are WP:WEASELLY, the sources presented in the prior RfC do indeed characterize Trump's statements as racist more than discuss how they are perceived. Even better would be some kind of summary of the effects of Trump's statements, rather than their character, but I can't immediately think how such a statement would go. ("Inflamed racial tensions", per the NYT ?) –Sangdeboeuf (talk) 08:42, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Discussion

This has already been exhaustively debated over multiple discussions and RfCs, and I just don't understand why we need yet another discussion over what has been stable for a long time now. But since we are having another RfC, why only the binary choice? What about "seen as" or "described as" or other choices? This just hasn't been well thought out, and I think this eagerness to have repeat RfCs over the same thing needs to stop. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:45, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

Can you help me find where this has already been exhaustively debated over multiple discussions and RfCs? I don't see any of that in this archive search. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:01, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

JFG links to them at the top of this RfC. -- Scjessey (talk) 11:58, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

As for the binary choice: "Seen as" is interchangeable with "perceived as" in this context. "Described as" is interchangeable with "characterized as" in this context. There is nothing to be gained by adding synonymous options that would only serve to make a consensus harder to reach. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:39, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

I wasn't just adding synonyms ("or other choices"). Rather obviously, Trump is a racist who has made racist comments (as documented by reliable sources ad infinitum) and yet we water down this fact for the article. It's my feeling that "characterized" even further sanitizes "perceived", which was already a compromise. -- Scjessey (talk) 11:58, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

The problem is that there is no objective standard by which to judge whether something is racist or not. So what is and isn't racist is subjective and varies from one person to another. Rreagan007 (talk) 02:47, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

I think that it it should just be neither, since he is obviously a racist. (This is satire since we need to have a neutral standpoint and this discussion is not helping.)

Trim second paragraph in lead

The lead section currently comprises an intro sentence briefly defining the subject and three paragraphs describing his life: the first on Trump's early life and business career, the second on his accession to the presidency, and the third about his actions as U.S. President. Now that we are well into the third year of his first term, I believe that the second paragraph has reached undue proportions compared to the rest of the biography. I would therefore suggest to trim it thus.

Current version

Trump entered the 2016 presidential race as a Republican and defeated sixteen opponents in the primaries. His campaign received extensive free media coverage. Commentators described his political positions as populist, protectionist, and nationalist. Trump has made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. The statements have been documented by fact-checkers, and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics. Trump was elected president in a surprise victory over Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton. He became the oldest and wealthiest person ever to assume the presidency, the first without prior military or government service, and the fifth to have won the election despite having lost the popular vote. His election and policies have sparked numerous protests. Many of his comments and actions have been perceived as racially charged or racist.

Proposed trim

Trump entered the 2016 presidential race as a Republican and defeated sixteen opponents in the primaries. Commentators described his political positions as populist, protectionist, and nationalist. He was elected president in a surprise victory over Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton, although he lost the popular vote. Trump became the first U.S. president without prior military or government service. His election and policies have sparked numerous protests. He made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. Many of his comments and actions have been perceived as racially charged or racist.

Rationale to keep or remove each sentence

• Keep Trump entered the 2016 presidential race as a Republican and defeated sixteen opponents in the primaries. This was the widest field of Republican candidates ever, and Trump used to be a Democrat. He encountered perhaps more opposition from within the Republican party as from the Democratic candidates. Even after he became the nominee, the Never Trump movement continued until and beyond election day.
• Remove His campaign received extensive free media coverage. All presidential campaigns do, so what was exceptional this time? On the one hand, the media gave him a lot of airtime, on the other hand most of their coverage was negative. There's not much to conclude in terms of unusual influence of "free media" on voters.
• Keep Commentators described his political positions as populist, protectionist, and nationalist. That sounds like a fair and concise summary of his "MAGA" campaign platform.
• Keep He made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. That's a notable characteristic of his campaign rhetoric, of his prior life story touting "truthful hyperbole", and of his ongoing vagaries with the truth. Because it does not apply to the campaign only, I moved this to the end of the paragraph, before the sentence on racially-charged statements.
• Remove The statements have been documented by fact-checkers, and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics. That's too much detail for the lead, and is partly opinion. The previous sentence says enough about false statements; keep details for article body.
• Keep He was elected president in a surprise victory over Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton. That's the meat of the paragraph.
• Remove Trump became the oldest and wealthiest person ever to assume the presidency. That's just irrelevant trivia.
• Keep He became the first U.S. president without prior military or government service. That sounds more relevant than his age or his wealth.
• Replace and the fifth to have won the election despite having lost the popular vote by although he lost the popular vote after we mention his victory against Clinton. Keep the footnote that explains the Electoral College and mentions that this situation has occurred five times.
• Keep His election and policies have sparked numerous protests. That's a fact, and we have strong consensus to mention it.
• Keep Many of his comments and actions have been perceived as racially charged or racist. Keep per recent RfC.

Comments welcome. — JFG ^talk 22:43, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

I would agree with the changes except for the removal of "The statements have been documented by fact-checkers, and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics.", which I am strongly opposed to. This wording enjoys hard-won consensus. It is an important qualifier to the previous sentence.- MrX 🖋 23:21, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

I strongly oppose removal of "Trump became the oldest and wealthiest person ever to assume the presidency." These are relevant and important items. I disagree that they are "irrelevant trivia." The Reagan article, for comparison, notes in the lead section that "Reagan was the oldest person to have been elected to a first-term..."; the JFK article states "at age 43, he became the second-youngest man to serve as president (after Theodore Roosevelt), the youngest man to be elected as U.S. president"; the T. Roosevelt article says that he "remains the youngest person to become President of the United States"; the Lincoln article states that Lincoln "grew up on the frontier in a poor family." Neutrality^talk 02:43, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

I largely agree with JFG, except for what Neutrality has expressed. Trump's wealth was a huge point of discussion in the election -- whether it was a pro or a con depended on who you were talking to, but it was constantly talked about either way. Cosmic Sans (talk) 17:28, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

• Support. I agree with each and every deletion. I think JFG has done a nice job here separating the most significant aspects from the less significant aspects. I think MrX's concern can be addressed by expanding the "false or misleading sentence"; the "fact-checkers" sentence is a bit much and just poorly written. Regarding the "oldest and wealthiest" sentence, that's absolutely important, but my understanding (as an avid news reader) is that, regardless of how we feel about it, it's received significantly less RS coverage than the other content in the paragraph. R2 (bleep) 19:30, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
• Same as MrX. Consensus has weight and it should take a lot to change one, particularly a recent one. By "a lot" I mean considerably more than a majority in this discussion, which is about far more than that sentence. I fail to see how the sentence is "just poorly written", and I don't think that's just because I wrote it. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:13, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, I had no idea who had drafted that sentence when I wrote that. Both clauses could be greatly improved.

• The statements have been documented by fact-checkers This is extremely milquetoast... Trump's false statements have been documented by fact checkers... So what? Every prominent politician's false statements have documented by fact checkers. This clause says more about fact checkers (and arguably about the political climate that led to the rise of fact checkers) rather than about Trump himself.
• and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics. Just difficult to understand, because "the phenomenon" is so vague. I assume this refers to the frequency of Trump's false and misleading statements? If so, why don't we just say that? In addition, the "unprecedentedness" of Trump's false and misleading statements is a verifiable fact. We shouldn't be attributing this in-text to "the media," which violates WP:YESPOV (do not treat verifiable facts as opinions) and plays into Trump's war on the media and the concept that reliable sources are somehow on par with a politician's statements.

R2 (bleep) 17:38, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

TL;DR: the emphasis of the sentence is all wrong, as both clauses are about the media's conduct, rather than about Trump. R2 (bleep) 17:41, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Mea culpa, I should have omitted my last sentence above. The content sentence in question is the result of an RfC that was open for more than a month a mere few months ago, focused exclusively on that little bit of content, and received over 10,000 words from over 30 editors. One of the precious few editors willing to spend their time doing uninvolved closes spent a considerable amount of it assessing that consensus and writing the close. A change to that consensus should not even be on the table in this discussion. If you feel it's really important, start another RfC and be prepared for the outcry of "too soon to revisit this". ―Mandruss ☎ 17:55, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for the info. I'm positively hitting myself for missing that RfC. R2 (bleep) 18:59, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Upon review I see I hit the RfC early and never saw Mandruss's proposed language. Damn. R2 (bleep) 19:15, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

• Same as MrX as well. And the Mandruss comments also. Gandydancer (talk) 13:27, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

• Can remove lots more - keeping 9 out of 11 is not much of a reduction. Some of these seem removable as not biographically major, some seem just an old artifact from when he was a candidate and there was nothing more to say, etcetera. So try eliminating down to just a few lines as was the mid-term precedent for Bush and Obama. Looking instead for whats the most that could be removed as not biographically big and/or not big in article gets a different view of just a couple things really need to stay.

1. KEEP Presidential race. Major life event, large section of the article and much follows from that.
2. Drop free media coverage. It was explaining how he got the nomination, but is not life event or large section.
3. Drop commentators describe. Outside views not a life event, and content not in body -- only populist seems mentioned and not much of it. Shift this to body.
4. Drop has made false. Outside views not a life event, and not much in article - plus has been contentious.
5. Drop documented by fact-checkers. Just adding detail behind prior line.
6. KEEP elected in surprise. Major life event, sizable section of article and much follows from that.
7. Drop oldest and wealthiest, we do keep this kind of trivia here, but its not in article and not important
8. Drop without prior military - we could but others make no lead about such, its not a big life event or big part of article
9. Drop popular vote - not any effect from that, and its just one line in article body - plus its a parisan complaint.
10. Drop numerous protests - not a major life event, small section in article and seems vague blurb for what was a 1-month wonder.
11. Drop perceived as racist - outside views not a life event, big section of the article though. But it was contentious on having in lead.

Cheers Markbassett (talk) 04:16, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

• Update – Thanks for the feedback so far. I'll leave this suggestion open for another week to gather more comments, then we'll see how to proceed. — JFG ^talk 20:09, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

We had an entire entire RfC on the "unprecedented" sentence. Wouldn't it require another RfC to remove? There was Consensus to use the term "unprecedented" so long as it is properly cited with a WP:RS. This was in February 2019. Has anything substantial changed since then? I doubt it. starship.paint (edits | talk) 04:28, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

There is a proposal below to condense the two "false statements" sentences into one, while keeping the "unprecedented" qualifier. — JFG ^talk 10:02, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Proposal to streamline lead re false and misleading statements

Proposal. The preceding discussion notwithstanding, I propose the following change to the lead section. From:

• Trump has made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. The statements have been documented by fact-checkers, and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics.

To:

• Trump has made an unprecedented number of false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency, as documented by fact-checkers.

I hope editors will consider this a further, stylistic refinement of the existing language rather than a substantive change. The current language received consensus in February after an RfC. I could be mistaken but I believe this proposal doesn't violate the 5 points identified by the RfC closer.

Rationale. The primary rationale is that the proposed language is more concise, and currently the emphasis of the second sentence is all wrong, as both of its clauses are about the media's conduct rather than about Trump. Specifically with respect to each clause:

• "The statements have been documented by fact-checkers" This is extremely milquetoast... Trump's false statements have been documented by fact checkers... So what? Every prominent politician's false statements have documented by fact checkers. This clause says more about fact checkers (and arguably about the political climate that led to the rise of fact checkers) that it does about Trump himself.
• "and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics." Just difficult to understand, because "the phenomenon" is so vague. I assume this refers to the frequency of Trump's false and misleading statements? If so, why don't we just say that? In addition, the "unprecedentedness" of Trump's false and misleading statements is a verifiable fact. We shouldn't be attributing this in-text to "the media," which violates WP:YESPOV (do not treat verifiable facts as opinions) and plays into Trump's war on the media and the concept that reliable sources are somehow on par with a politician's statements. I'd support removing the "as documented by fact-checkers" phrase, except that that would require overturning the existing consensus.

R2 (bleep) 19:43, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

• Too soon to revisit this. The content in question is the result of an RfC that was open for more than a month a mere few months ago, focused exclusively on that little bit of content, and received over 10,000 words from over 30 editors. One of the precious few editors willing to spend their time doing uninvolved closes spent a considerable amount of it assessing that consensus and writing the close. It is far too soon to seek to replace a consensus with that much invested in it. See also WP:CCC. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:50, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

I'm not proposing a wholesale replacement of the existing language, just a stylistic refinement. I don't think the recent consensus requires these sentences to be 100% locked in place verbatim. R2 (bleep) 19:55, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, that's no mere stylistic refinement. In any case, the time for your suggestion was during the aforementioned RfC. As you indicated, you missed it, and that's just how it goes sometimes. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:03, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

I guess I'm not such a procedural stickler. The community standard at issue here is WP:CCC, and specifically, "Editors may propose a change to current consensus, especially to raise previously unconsidered arguments or circumstances. On the other hand, proposing to change a recent consensus can be disruptive." I'm willing to withdraw my proposal if consensus forms that it's disruptive. R2 (bleep) 20:47, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Yeah seems disruptive since it is not a particularly new argument. PackMecEng (talk) 20:54, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

I wouldn't use the word disruptive even if that's the word used in CCC. I just expect a reasonable return on investment. There is never enough time to do everything that needs doing, so we have to prioritize and actively choose to let some things go. That means leaving this alone, freeing editor time for content that hasn't been exhaustively discussed within the past few months. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:11, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Wasting editor time can be a mild form of disruption. Regardless, if a consensus forms that I'm wasting everyone's time, then I'll withdraw the proposal. R2 (bleep) 22:11, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose Not too soon, but lets not - seems this keeps getting revisited after a few months or several months, so I think its been long enough -- but I would suggest to not do it just for a wording tweak. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 04:34, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Updated to ‘Oppose’, agree with Mandruss that wiki voice is incorrect. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 03:49, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

@Markbassett: What's wrong with wikivoice? The false and misleading statements have been well-documented, there is no question they exist and have attracted wide coverage. R2's version expresses this state of affairs clearly and concisely. — JFG ^talk 13:05, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

User:JFG - I had missed it until seeing the later Mandruss Strong Oppose, having mostly an immediate “Not for just a tweak” reaction, but this proposal is ironically a bit false or misleading in presenting this as the last rfc was narrowly approving as something attributed and cited to them, see the closer statements. I also then noticed this proposed phrasing would be incorrect as a summary of the body (which is covering it as a small media bit) and of what seems external reality. It really isn’t a valid wiki voice as if a universal position since most media and fact-checkers just aren’t saying this. Most usually don’t go here, or only note occasionally something (e.g. at State of the union, BBC Reality Check found 6 right out of 7 statements) or are saying this is incorrect. (You can perhaps imagine how Fox or NYPost denounce Politifact and may portray Trump dismissal of Political correctness as being honest.) The extent this false statements is mentioned or counted actually seems narrow, like mostly the Washington Post, Politifact, and Toronto Star, with echoing from NY Times and CNN. Major WEIGHT there, but clearly not universal or even majority. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 00:51, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

• Support for conciseness and clarity of writing. The only substance this version would lose is the word "unprecedented", but that could be applied equally to every sentence in Trump's political career so far. As they say in typography, "when everything is bold, nothing is bold". — JFG ^talk 07:12, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

I'm confused. I didn't drop the word "unprecedented." R2 (bleep) 16:10, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Right, I didn't notice you had placed it earlier in the sentence. I still support the change. — JFG ^talk 16:46, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

• Support - It includes the essence of the significant points with fewer words. How bad can that be? - MrX 🖋 10:40, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
• Strong oppose - It converts the "unprecedented" from attributed to wiki voice, hardly the minor change this is made out to be and directly contradictory to the hard-won existing consensus. The length of the content was pointed out and acknowledged in the very first sentence of the proposal, lest anyone fail to consider it, and the content was widely accepted anyway. Now, a few months later, it's an issue that needs fixing. This kind of change should require considerably more than a local survey of a handful of editors. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:13, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
• Strong support per others. The clause "as documented by fact-checkers" actually means "unprecedented" is in their voice, not wiki voice. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:21, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

  The word "unprecedented" would fail WEIGHT if it rested solely on the few fact-checking organizations. Of the nine sources we currently cite to support the word in the body, only one—WaPo's Kessler—is listed at List of fact-checking websites#United States. Fact-checkers document the falsehoods but our word "unprecedented" rests primarily on material from other reliable sources. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:55, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

  Mandruss is right on this point, as above. This is not a mere stylistic change. Strong oppose the proposed change, it does not reflect the sources currently cited. starship.paint (edits | talk) 08:36, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

The close of the RfC said expressly: Slight Consensus was for substantiating the "unprecedented" claim by citing fact-checkers. I'm a little confused how the two of you are saying we shouldn't revisit the RfC, while arguing that we should depart from the closer's conclusions. R2 (bleep) 00:18, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

That doesn't mean citing fact-checkers to the exclusion of everybody else. The closer ultimately said, Mandruss's proposal had the most support, and it passes all five criteria listed. The third of those five criteria, from which you quoted, was "citing 'fact-checkers'" and yet Mandruss's proposal attributed "unprecedented" to "the media", not fact-checkers. So I don't see how the closer could have meant what you say he meant.

But hey, let's spend a week or so analyzing a close statement so we might shorten a passage by 13 words, while dropping "in American politics", which was seen as important by some in the RfC, including one of our better editors, MelanieN.[4] Maybe we should bring the closer into this discussion? In my view, it's time to move on to something more worthwhile. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:03, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Alternative proposal

As described by media and fact-checking organizations, Trump has made an unprecedented number of false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency.

This takes care of the Wiki-voice problem by putting the attribution (to both media and fact-checkers) up front, while preserving style and substance. Otherwise I generally agree with R2's points, especially #1: that Trump's falsehoods were documented by fact-checkers is trivial; we wouldn't be hearing about them otherwise. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 12:40, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Still a bit self-evident, but less wordy than previous version. I'd support that if R2's version is rejected. Regarding wikivoice, I don't think we should attribute anything in the lead -- if it's opinion or otherwise can't be stated in wikivoice, it doesn't belong there. The false and misleading statements have been well-documented, there is no question they exist and have attracted wide coverage, which is why R2's version is legit. — JFG ^talk 13:01, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

JFG, I believe you and I see exactly eye-to-eye on this issue. My same thoughts about in-text attribution in the lead. R2 (bleep) 16:33, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose. Drops "in American politics" and increases maximum sentence length by 3 words, only to shorten the passage by 10 words. In my opinion there are more important things than reducing total word count to its absolute minimum, like the sum of my previous arguments. The 10,000-word RfC considered five "official" proposals, not counting things mentioned during discussion that never became "official". Here we have two more, and this can go on indefinitely as editors propose more better ideas that don't make that much real difference. If this seems obstructionist or POINTy, I'm sorry. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:06, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

  @Mandruss: I don't see anything in the RfC outcome or discussion that prevents editors from attempting to improve the clarity. All this weaseling about "people checked that he lied but are splitting hairs on how misleading or dangerous all these false statements are" is tiresome. Oh, and is it really unprecedented or is that just in America? Gosh! Let's call it a WP:SPADE and move on. — JFG ^talk 18:54, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

  Three months ago, a 71% consensus among fourteen editors, including a considerable amount of editing experience, scrutinized the status quo language and decided that it's clear enough. You're effectively claiming that they collectively failed to notice that it wasn't clear enough, after all.

  If we made your change and "moved on", I suspect you would not be receptive to revisiting this again in August, when another editor sees a compelling need for more more clarity that you don't see. I suspect you would argue that settled things should be allowed to remain settled for longer than a few months, particularly with that much invested in them. Or maybe I'm wrong, and you don't think inefficient use of limited volunteer editor time should concern us. On that we would have to agree to disagree. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:25, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

  You suspect too much. Lighten up! I care for accuracy and conciseness, so I would welcome any further refinements to any text I helped draft. In fact, improving texts for clarity is the bulk of my daily work. WP:Readers first! — JFG ^talk 19:41, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

  Sigh. I guess it's somehow unclear that my reasoning is all about WP:Readers first. As an argument, that's about as useful as WP:SENSE. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:57, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

• Please Drop this. Went thru multiple discussions and RFCs for the existing line, this failed to state it intended to break with that consensus of NOT wikivoice so this thread smells a bit off to me. Descriptions in RS typically do attribute to a single fact-checker - only a few go into this extensively - so just follow the general RS. No change. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 01:04, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

Had any impact on Trump's life - Biographical articles and re Presidents

Thought I should post here looking for good ways to identify proper content for an article named for a person, 'what fits here'. I will put in one criteria I've seen and said, and if you’ve got others please add to the mix — all measures needed, the question recurs frequently.

Particularly when the person is President there are other articles about them, and most new information about Donald Trump should not go here. There is guidance it should go into the most appropriate article, such as Presidency of Donald Trump, Donald Trump on social media, Mueller Report or a thousand other places listed in the wikiproject WP:TRUMP or dozens of the Donald Trump series.

So --what kinds of things would be up for consideration in whether something fits here ?

Cheers Markbassett (talk) 05:22, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Suggestions

• Significant effect/impact in their life seems a fairly common point in TALK discussions for what belongs in an article about a person, whether something is OFFTOPIC for an article about the person. This would be either major life decisions by the named person or events that had an effect on their life. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 05:24, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
• Will it be appropriate for this article in the year 2050? - and/or the above. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:28, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
• It would be too hard to define a general rule that would get consensus. Let sources and editors evaluate the relevancy and timeliness of each statement. Actually this article is being pretty-well maintained with the current processes in place. — JFG ^talk 13:09, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Trump`s sexual indiscretions

It seem any reference to trump`s sexually inappropriate behavior is being consistently removed not only from the article but the talk page as well as if this isn`t relevant. I had a lawyer tell me once he didn`t care about the truth..that it only got in the way of him doing his job..this is unethical and immoral.107.217.84.95 (talk) 21:02, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

You're mistaken. We have a whole section of the article entitled "Sexual misconduct allegations." All derogatory information about Trump or any other living person must comply with our policy on biographies of living people. Offending content will be removed, whether in the article or on this talk page. R2 (bleep) 23:21, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Jobs, jobs, jobs!

I think we need to include something about the strong economy and historically-low unemployment under Trump's presidency, probably under §Economy and trade. It should probably even be reflected very briefly in the lead. What do others think? - MrX 🖋 16:10, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

Um...what wording do you propose?--MONGO (talk) 16:55, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

You first. - MrX 🖋 17:47, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

@MrX: - I'll try instead. NO COLLUSION. NO OBSTRUCTION. 18 ANGRY DEMOCRATS. RUSSIAN HOAX. SPYING! TREASON! (delete this if someone has a serious proposal posting here). starship.paint (edits | talk) 04:23, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

With jobs numbers out just today, I think we are going to have a hard time coming up with something presented from the historical perspective. Also, every mainstream economist agrees the "strong economy" was inherited from the previous administration, and the "historically-low" headline unemployment rate is largely down to a ton of people leaving the labor force this month. Nevertheless, the facts speak for themselves and the US economy is doing very well. It's strange that Trump would wish to ruin that by overheating the economy and punishing savers with an interest rate cut, but who knows what goes on in whatever inhabits the space between his ears? -- Scjessey (talk) 18:28, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

FYI: private sector job creation during Trump's first 27 months is 5.5% lower than during the preceding 27 months soibangla (talk) 18:37, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

FYI: it's much easier to create jobs when you inherit a strong economy from the previous administration, then when you inherit a recession from one. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:11, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

FYI: The sky is blue for an amount of time most days. PackMecEng (talk) 19:27, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

@Scjessey: You've got this backwards. It's much easier to create jobs when emerging out of a devastating recession than to keep growing the economy once the business cycle has returned to normal. — JFG ^talk 20:03, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

That's a perennial debate, and as with most things, there are complexities. We certainly could not say Trump alone is responsible for historically low unemployment, however there should be some content that acknowledges his role. The New York Times captures it this way:

After more than two years of the Trump administration, warnings that trade wars and erratic management style would throw the economy off course have proved wrong so far, and tax cuts and deregulation are most likely part of the reason for the strong growth rates in 2018 and the beginning of 2019 (though most forecasts envision a slowing in the coming quarters as the impact of tax cuts fades).
— The New York Times

.

The downsides to his policies will probably lag the first term of his presidency.- MrX 🖋 19:28, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

I'll help craft something but it goes against my endless pleadings that we avoid recent news, even if they all say the same thing. Something simple like lowest unemployment levels since the late 60s and continued job growth overall in his first 2 plus years in office. Rather than caveat that with what he did or did not inherit or what the prognosticators are predicting just stick to a couple simple facts. It's obvious the economy is sometimes based on what a President does and sometimes not and I tend to not give to much credit or fault to Presidents on this issue.--MONGO (talk) 20:11, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

The economic expansion that began in June 2009 continued through Trump's first two years, with somewhat higher real GDP growth but somewhat lower job creation and real wage growth.

real GDP growth:

9 qtrs of Trump: 2.8%

prior 9 qtrs: 1.9%

average real wage growth:

26 months of Trump: 0.5%

prior 26 months: 1.5%

soibangla (talk) 22:30, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

That's an interesting perspective. Could we see some sources?- MrX 🖋 22:35, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

Welp, I got the data, but I ain't got it in a secondary source. Fail. Nevermind. soibangla (talk) 22:43, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

• User:MrX This seems a topic more appropriately for Presidency of Donald Trump section on Economy. Related might include the recent record low unemployment noted by RS, and the ‘Trump stock market rally’ or ‘Trump Bull Run’ (from Election Day Dow 17,900 moved monthly 19,000. 20,000 and 21,000 ... 26,500 after a year in office, about where it has remained since.). Cheers Markbassett (talk) 05:52, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

Well this ended up wrongly identifying that the economic strength we are seeing is due to Trump continuing Obama's economic policies, when most sources attribute the low unemployment rate and strong economy to Trump rolling back many of the restrictions, regulations and policies of his predecessor.--MONGO (talk) 20:19, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

Please provide those "most sources," preferably of the reliable variety. If you're referring to my edit, it does not suggest that Trump has continued Obama's policies, it simply says the expansion has continued under Trump. BTW, his best full-year GDP of 2.9% is matched by 2.9% in 2015, when there were no tax cuts or deregulation soibangla (talk) 22:12, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

I agree with the OP that the "Trump economy" can no longer be ignored. We could say something along the lines of this:

The U.S. economy has grown strongly during the first two years of the Trump administration. The gross national product grew by x% in 2017 and y% in 2018, the stock market gained x% since Trump's election, and unemployment dropped from x% to y%, the lowest level since 1969. The government attributes this performance to their deregulation agenda and pro-business tax cuts, while opponents argue that Trump is reaping the rewards of the Obama legacy, and that the country's deficit is still growing excessively.

To be sourced, obviously. Sounds neutral enough, presenting first hard facts, then contrasting explanations by supporters and opponents of Trump's policies. — JFG ^talk 13:19, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

I would have to see the sources that that's based on, but that's roughly what I had in mind.- MrX 🖋 13:23, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

ETA: We also probably need to mention the precarious nature of the economy due to trade wars, etc.[5][6]- MrX 🖋 13:28, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Too much growing! This would be a better beginning: "During the first two years of the Trump administration, the gross national product grew by x% in 2017 and y% in 2018, the stock market gained x%, and the headline unemployment rate dropped from x% to y%." Other than that, I echo MrX's thoughts about trade wars and I think data on wages and wage disparity is also needed for a fuller picture. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:47, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

The economy hasn't really "grown strongly" relative to history. The 2.2% in 2017 is below the post-war average of 2.9%, even when including all recessions, and was matched/exceeded in four Obama years. The 2.9% in 2018 was matched in 2015 and is much lower than during expansions of the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s. Job creation and wage/earnings growth has been lower than before Trump took office. The most notable aspect of this economy is its continued strength so late into the expansion, not that the strength itself is notable. Based on the data so far, there is no reason to conclude that the economic performance thus far under Trump, as unremarkable as it actually is, can be attributed to his policies, as we had 2.9% in 2015 with no tax cut or deregulation. We need at least another year of data to conclude Trump's policies made a difference. soibangla (talk) 17:17, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Re: We need at least another year of data to conclude Trump's policies made a difference. I'll mark your words right now, and I bet you $100 that after another year of good data, most pundits will still pin this success on Obama, and will be up in arms about the deficit. — JFG ^talk 18:49, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for mentioning the growing deficit, as I didn’t say anything about the direct stimulative effect of Trump’s increased deficit spending...until now soibangla (talk) 21:08, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

So unremarkable that the media that spends most of their time finding every booger Trump flings under his mattress have all been saying how remarkable it is. Secretly, they all hope it crashes about this time next year...and most even get their crystal balls out and prognosticate that a recession is likely to happen in 2020. No, the most notable thing about this is the low inflation levels and half-century low unemployment rates.[7], [8], [9]--MONGO (talk) 17:58, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for those "most sources" you mentioned. In the meantime, I provided a link in the article with economists cheering about the continued strength in the economy, and I just gave you factual data to show that the economy is unremarkable relative to recent and long-term history. The GDP growth is actually below average. The unemployment rate didn't suddenly drop off a cliff when Trump arrived, it had been steadily declining for several years, across all demographics. Inflation has been very low for several years, this is nothing new. soibangla (talk) 18:09, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Nothing new...hence the headlines saying the opposite..."over 3 percent GDP growth"..."gross domestic product rose by 3.2 percent in the first quarter"...[10] [11] "On deregulation, Trump ordered that rules be pared back or eliminated across the board. During his time in office, Congress has cut back on the Dodd-Frank banking reforms, particularly in areas affecting regional and community institutions, rolled back a multitude of environmental protections that he said were killing jobs and took a hatchet to dozens of other rules. The Dodd-Frank rollbacks have been particularly helpful to community banks, whose share prices collectively are up more than 25 percent over the past year. Small-cap stocks in general have strongly outperformed the broader market, gaining 23 percent over the past 12 months at a time when the S&P 500 is up 17 percent." however, same ref: "This is temporary...most economists think we have a recession in 2020, because of these policies.”--MONGO (talk) 18:48, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

We can do without the forumy edits. O3000 (talk) 18:52, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

That’s semi-interesting, but nowhere does it suggest deregulation has stimulated growth. And one quarter of GDP does not a trend make: it was 5.1% and 4.9% in back-to-back quarters in 2014, but came in at 2.5% for the year. soibangla (talk) 20:58, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

User:Scjessey I like the brevity and just facts of that — just need cites and it’s good. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 01:27, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

MfD nomination of Portal:Donald Trump

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Creative trolling

It seems to me that this troll post has elegantly captured the situation in American politics over the last few years. A remarkable feat of écriture automatique! — JFG ^talk 19:36, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

But, it missed entirely the reptilian ancestry of the British crown. O3000 (talk) 21:47, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Whoever wrote that has been paying quite a bit of attention to the news over the past few years. Good job.Mgasparin (talk) 23:19, 6 May 2019 (UTC)