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See also: Logged AE sanctions

Important information

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Please use this page only to:

request administrative action against editors violating a remedy (not merely a principle) or an injunction in an Arbitration Committee decision, or a contentious topic restriction imposed by an administrator,
request contentious topic restrictions against previously alerted editors who engage in misconduct in a topic area designated as a contentious topic,
request page restrictions (e.g. revert restrictions) on pages that are being disrupted in topic areas designated as contentious topics, or
appeal arbitration enforcement actions (including contentious topic restrictions) to uninvolved administrators.

For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard.

Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.

To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.

Appeals and administrator modifications of contentious topics restrictions

The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications of contentious topic restrictions state the following:

All contentious topic restrictions (and logged warnings) may be appealed. Only the restricted editor may appeal an editor restriction. Any editor may appeal a page restriction.

The appeal process has three possible stages. An editor appealing a restriction may:

ask the administrator who first made the contentious topic restrictions (the "enforcing administrator") to reconsider their original decision;
request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN"); and
submit a request for amendment ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email.

Appeals submitted at AE or AN must be submitted using the applicable template.

A rough consensus of administrators at AE or editors at AN may specify a period of up to one year during which no appeals (other than an appeal to ARCA) may be submitted.

Changing or revoking a contentious topic restriction

An administrator may only modify or revoke a contentious topic restriction if a formal appeal is successful or if one of the following exceptions applies:

The administrator who originally imposed the contentious topic restriction (the "enforcing administrator") affirmatively consents to the change,^[a] or is no longer an administrator;^[b] or
The contentious topic restriction was imposed (or last renewed) more than a year ago and:
- the restriction was imposed by a single administrator, or
- the restriction was an indefinite block.

A formal appeal is successful only if one of the following agrees with revoking or changing the contentious topic restriction:

a clear consensus of uninvolved administrators at AE,
a clear consensus of uninvolved editors at AN,
a majority of the Arbitration Committee, acting through a motion at ARCA.

Any administrator who revokes or changes a contentious topic restriction out of process (i.e. without the above conditions being met) may, at the discretion of the Arbitration Committee, be desysopped.

Standard of review
On community review

Uninvolved administrators at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") and uninvolved editors at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN") should revoke or modify a contentious topic restriction on appeal if:

the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action was not reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption when first imposed, or
the action is no longer reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption.

On Arbitration Committee review

Arbitrators hearing an appeal at a request for amendment ("ARCA") will generally overturn a contentious topic restriction only if:

the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action represents an unreasonable exercise of administrative enforcement discretion, or
compelling circumstances warrant the full Committee's action.

^ The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.
^ This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

Appeals and administrator modifications of non-contentious topics sanctions

The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications and appeals state:

Appeals by sanctioned editors

Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction. Requests for modification of page restrictions may be made by any editor. The process has three possible stages (see "Important notes" below). The editor may:

ask the enforcing administrator to reconsider their original decision;
request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators’ noticeboard ("AN"); and
submit a request for amendment at the amendment requests page ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email through Special:EmailUser/Arbitration Committee (or, if email access is revoked, to arbcom-enwikimedia.org).

Modifications by administrators

No administrator may modify or remove a sanction placed by another administrator without:

the explicit prior affirmative consent of the enforcing administrator; or
prior affirmative agreement for the modification at (a) AE or (b) AN or (c) ARCA (see "Important notes" below).

Administrators modifying sanctions out of process may at the discretion of the committee be desysopped.

Nothing in this section prevents an administrator from replacing an existing sanction issued by another administrator with a new sanction if fresh misconduct has taken place after the existing sanction was applied.

Administrators are free to modify sanctions placed by former administrators – that is, editors who do not have the administrator permission enabled (due to a temporary or permanent relinquishment or desysop) – without regard to the requirements of this section. If an administrator modifies a sanction placed by a former administrator, the administrator who made the modification becomes the "enforcing administrator". If a former administrator regains the tools, the provisions of this section again apply to their unmodified enforcement actions.

Important notes:

For a request to succeed, either

(i) the clear and substantial consensus of (a) uninvolved administrators at AE or (b) uninvolved editors at AN or

(ii) a passing motion of arbitrators at ARCA

is required. If consensus at AE or AN is unclear, the status quo prevails.

While asking the enforcing administrator and seeking reviews at AN or AE are not mandatory prior to seeking a decision from the committee, once the committee has reviewed a request, further substantive review at any forum is barred. The sole exception is editors under an active sanction who may still request an easing or removal of the sanction on the grounds that said sanction is no longer needed, but such requests may only be made once every six months, or whatever longer period the committee may specify.
These provisions apply only to contentious topic restrictions placed by administrators and to blocks placed by administrators to enforce arbitration case decisions. They do not apply to sanctions directly authorized by the committee, and enacted either by arbitrators or by arbitration clerks, or to special functionary blocks of whatever nature.
All actions designated as arbitration enforcement actions, including those alleged to be out of process or against existing policy, must first be appealed following arbitration enforcement procedures to establish if such enforcement is inappropriate before the action may be reversed or formally discussed at another venue.

Information for administrators processing requests

Thank you for participating in this area. AE works best if there are a variety of admins bringing their expertise to each case. There is no expectation to comment on every case, and the Arbitration Committee (ArbCom) thanks all admins for whatever time they can give.

A couple of reminders:

Before commenting, please familiarise yourself with the referenced ArbCom case. Please also read all the evidence (including diffs) presented in the AE request.
When a request widens to include editors beyond the initial request, these editors must be notified and the notifications recorded in the same way as for the initial editor against whom sanctions were requested. Where some part of the outcome is clear, a partial close may be implemented and noted as "Result concerning X".
Enforcement measures in arbitration cases should be construed liberally to protect Wikipedia and keep it running efficiently. Some of the behaviour described in an enforcement request might not be restricted by ArbCom. However, it may violate other Wikipedia policies and guidelines; you may use administrative discretion to resolve it.
More than one side in a dispute may have ArbCom conduct rulings applicable to them. Please ensure these are investigated.

Closing a thread:

Once an issue is resolved, enclose it between {{hat}} and {{hab}} tags. A bot should archive it in 7 days.
Please consider referring the case to ARCA if the outcome is a recommendation to do so or the issue regards administrator conduct.
You can use the templates {{uw-aeblock}} (for blocks) or {{AE sanction}} (for other contentious topic restrictions) to give notice of sanctions on user talk pages.
Please log sanctions in the Arbitration enforcement log.

Thanks again for helping. If you have any questions, please post on the talk page.

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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Infinity Knight #2

Appeal declined. Infinity Knight is cautioned that further appeals made prior to six months from today's date are likely to be considered disruptive and lead to further sanctions, up to and including an indefinite block. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 03:45, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Appealing user: Infinity Knight (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Infinity Knight (talk) 19:39, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction being appealed: You are indefinitely topic-banned from the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly construed.; You have been sanctioned because you have repeatedly attempted to weaponize administrative processes within the topic area, after a previous warning:

Attempt to sanction topic-area opponent for policy-compliant edit (I AGF on this one, but presented for context)
Warned by Bishonen for civil POV-pushing in an attempt to sanction a topic-area opponent
Attempt to sanction the same opponent as in (1), under the same misapplication of policy, for conduct that was even less objectionable than the first time.
More selective misapplication of policy, this time against the admin who told you that you were wrong in (3)

Previous appeal

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive324#Arbitration_enforcement_action_appeal_by_Infinity_Knight

Administrator imposing the sanction

Tamzin (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
Johnuniq (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrators :

[1]
[2]

Statement by Infinity Knight

Regarding (1) & (3), I visited Tamzin's talk page under sub-section titled Inquiry I used the phrase "Are there any concerns related to original research? Your input is appreciated". I did not support or recommend imposing sanctions on another user.

Regarding (4), I acknowledge that exercised poor judgment in relation to (4). Tamzin mentioned that my involvement in administrative processes related to this topic area lacked the necessary detachment. Nevertheless, I hold the view that administrators should be accountable to the community. It is essential to emphasize that I did not endeavor to "misrepresent policy".

Tamzin mentioned that my involvement in administrative processes related to this topic area lacked the necessary detachment. I was directed to the AE discussions by ScottishFinnishRadish here, the idea of "draconian" measures caught my interest. As a WikiKnight, my main objective is to foster a positive and harmonious editing environment on Wikipedia while upholding the platform's fundamental content policies, such as neutrality, verifiability, and reliability.

Finally, I will abstain from commenting during AE discussions unless an administrator requests my input.

Having been part of this community for some time, I would value an impartial assessment of the provided diffs. Infinity Knight (talk) 04:08, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Nableezy

Didnt we just do this? nableezy - 19:56, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tamzin

This catches me midway through my drive to WikiConference North America, so I can't respond at length, but I think my response to last week's appeal still applies. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe|she) 20:03, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Objective3000

I don't see how this materially differs from the previous appeal. As Johnuniq said in the that appeal: There has been too much wasted time dealing with this user….[3] I suggest they appeal after several months of editing in other areas. O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:40, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Infinity Knight

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by (uninvolved editor 1)

Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)

Result of the appeal by Infinity Knight

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

This is the same appeal as the one declined last week. @Infinity Knight: unless you have substantive new material to provide this will at best be closed with no action. -- Euryalus (talk) 21:18, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Unless some significant new information is provided in the next day or so this should be speedily declined. I would also suggest requiring a minimum of six months quality editing in unrelated areas before the next appeal. Thryduulf (talk) 00:55, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Doing this over again after a week is pretty disruptive and shows blatant disregard for the time and patience of other editors. I strongly support Thryduulf's suggestion of six months of quality editing in unrelated areas, and/or in the sister projects, before the next appeal. At least. A block for disruptive editing isn't off the table either, AFAIC. Bishonen | tålk 20:50, 10 November 2023 (UTC).[reply]

Brandmeister

Brandmeister is topic-banned from all Armenia-Azerbaijan conflict-related articles, broadly construed. Number 5 7 15:04, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Brandmeister

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: KhndzorUtogh (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 00:01, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Brandmeister (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Armenia-Azerbaijan 3

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

19:43, 7 November 2023 under the excuse of "rimming excessive details", Brandmeister removes any mention of Melikdoms of Karabakh, Siege of Stepanakert, and the Shusha massacre from the lead

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

23 October 2023 Page ban for 2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh and its associated subpages by Vanamonde

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

A broad TBAN for Armenia-Azerbaijan articles was considered in the discussion for Brandmeister's page ban and Brandmeister linked the AA3 page when asking about the page ban's scope

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Last month, Brandmeister was given a page ban for an Armenia-Azerbaijan article, for making offensive statements (comparing ethnic cleansing victims to economic migrants), misciting sources to push a POV, forum shopping, and boomerang after reciving a logged warning.[4][5] The consensus of the previous AE discussion was that another warning would be insufficent, but a broad indef topic ban would be too much at that point.

And now, a few weeks later, Brandmeister made a huge POV pushing edit on the Battle of Shusha (2020) article lead just in time for it to appear on the main page for "on this day". Brandmeister claimed to be removing excessive details, but the edit didn't even do that because the article still has the same 6 paragraphs when it should be 4 at most (MOS:LEADLENGTH). In actuality, Brandmeister's edit removed mention of Melikdoms of Karabakh, Siege of Stepanakert, and the Shusha massacre from the lead, but lines like "Until the middle of the 19th century, the city was considered the cultural and political centre of the regional Azerbaijani population" were kept in the lead. It would've been one thing if this were a true trimming edit that condensed the background of the lead, but Brandmeister removed the massacre of Armenians in 1920 and the siege in 1991-92 that are directly relevant to the conflict, while keeping that the city was considered so special by Azerbaijanis in 1800. This is very clear POV pushing. --KhndzorUtogh (talk) 00:01, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[6]

Discussion concerning Brandmeister

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Brandmeister

Regarding the edit in question MOS:INTRO says clearly that "the lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article" and that "Editors should avoid [...] overly specific descriptions – greater detail is saved for the body of the article". Here quite clearly melikdoms of Karabakh, siege of Stepanakert and the Shusha massacre are not directly related to the 2020 battle itself and belong to the Shusha article itself. From a NPOV point too, it's better to explain such details within relevant context rather than in the succinct summary style of the lead section. All three topics are already mentioned below in the article anyway, so if anything, this should be discussed at article's talkpage rather than bringing the issue here. Brandmeister^talk 00:03, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

theleekycauldron, for the record, the wording "self-proclaimed Republic of Artsakh" is not my introduced change, it was already present in the article's previous version as edited by KhndzorUtogh. The Republic of Artsakh article itself defines it as a breakaway state. Brandmeister^talk 11:56, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

theleekycauldron, HJ Mitchell, I provided an edit summary for my edit, particularly citing WP:DETAIL. On a general note, it strikes me that a single edit after which I dropped the issue is suddenly considered a sanctionable POV pushing. WP:POVPUSH has been clear on that: "the aggressive presentation of a particular point of view", with an italic emphasis on the word "aggressive". Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Armenia-Azerbaijan 3#Tendentious editing also describes it as "sustained aggressive point-of-view editing". Personally I've never reported a user over a single edit during my 10+ years of editing. Brandmeister^talk 20:38, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Grandmaster

I don't think that trimming of excessive background information from the lede by Brandmeister was selective. He removed the details that had no direct relation to the 2020 event, but left the part that said: Until the middle of the 19th century, the city was considered the cultural and political centre of the regional Azerbaijani population, as well as one of the two main cities of the Transcaucasus for Armenians. As one can see, significance for both Azerbaijani and Armenian population remained briefly mentioned after the edit by Brandmeister. The lede is not supposed to contain too much information on the history of the conflict, which I believe was the purpose of Brandmeister's edit. Grandmaster 09:38, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, "self-declared / self-proclaimed" is a regular term used to describe this entity by the mainstream international media, for example CNN: [7], BBC: [8], Al Jazeera: [9], Reuters: [10], The Financial Times: [11], The Washington Post: [12], etc. Grandmaster 14:00, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Brandmeister

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

The selective removal of information of information on ethnic cleansing from the third paragraph (removing reference to ethnic cleansing of Armenians but retaining the details of it happening to Azerbaijanis) is pretty clear POV pushing and shouldn't be tolerated. I'd support widening the topic ban to all Armenia-Azerbaijan conflict-related articles. Number 5 7 01:09, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Number 57 hits it on the head, plus they changed Artsakh to self-proclaimed Republic of Artsakh for not much reason. Support topic ban. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 10:11, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Brandmeister: Sure, but why add in another reference to Artsakh being "self-proclaimed"? Does it need to be qualified at every mention? Your statement seems to boil down to "this was a completely neutral edit, nothing to see here", but I don't know that I buy that (despite some of the changes being uncontroversially positive). Why did you remove the references to the Shusha massacre of Armenians, but not the 1992 expulsion of Azeris? theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 19:11, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Concur with my esteemed colleagues and fellow root vegetable. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:03, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The edit itself doesn't raise any eyebrows for me. Pruning lead sections is a normal part of the editorial process. But making an edit you know is likely to be controversial, at a time when the article is about to increase in visibility, and when your conduct in the topic area is already under scrutiny strikes me as poor judgement at best and tendentious editing at worst. I'd be willing to listen to a defence but so far I see a good case for the proposed topic ban. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:00, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Per Number57, not acceptable - topic ban from the whole AA area. Enough is enough, I think. Black Kite (talk) 19:57, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the other admins above - topic ban from the entire area seems sensible at this point. Ealdgyth (talk) 13:23, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

SamwiseGSix

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning SamwiseGSix

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Tgeorgescu (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 18:02, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: SamwiseGSix (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBPS

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

[13] 13 November 2023—whitewashing contrary to WP:PSCI;
[14] 13 November 2023—whitewashing contrary to WP:PSCI;
[15] 13 November 2023—whitewashing contrary to WP:PSCI.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on [16] 29 October 2023 (see the system log linked to above).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

If Anthroposophy cannot be called pseudoscience and quackery, then nothing can.

@Theleekycauldron: I have posted at WP:FTN and WP:RSN about it, but most people don't seem to care.

Administrator note Un-commented-out as caeciliusinhorto replied to this. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe|she) 18:10, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And the point of my mockery is not mocking them as a person, but showing that their POV is so utterly absurd for those from the reality-based community that it is highly incompatible with Wikipedia (see WP:LUNATICS for details). Yup, Anthroposophists perceive Wikipedia as unjust and me as Mr. Injustice, but there is no way Wikipedia could write articles about Anthroposophy which they would like. I'm simply human, and the failure to get the point time after time wears my patience down. And that's what they did: they politely refused to get the point each and every time. "You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic." Robert A. Heinlein.

They want to insert a wedge between WP:PSCI and WP:NPOV. All their edits are like asking a Catholic church to preach Salafism, or asking a Baptist church to preach Santeria. In the end, Wikipedia has a POV, and that POV is WP:MAINSTREAM.

About [17]: for me it is crystal-clear that they consider the guideline WP:FRINGE as an affront to Anthroposophy. My remark was making them clear that they cannot eat their cake and still have it. E.g., I don't like the article abortion. But since I'm not editing it, I don't create troubles in respect to such topic.

Have you read "Why Does Wikipedia Want to Destroy Deepak Chopra?" If Anthroposophists don't complain that Wikipedia wants to destroy Rudolf Steiner, we are doing a bad job. If anything can be said about the two men is that Chopra is considerably less fringe than Steiner. Chopra never belonged to völkisch Wagner clubs, and has never claimed to be a clairvoyant.

"but not specifically warned against mentioning x-risk yet " ([18])? See [19]. This farce has gone too far.

I'm not mocking a living person, but a guru who died almost a century ago.

Administrator note Un-commented-out as I replied to this. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe|she) 18:10, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@JPxG: They have toned down their initial proposal. What I objected is that they wanted Wikipedia to endorse the ontology and the epistemology of Anthroposophy, and I consider their wish totally not done. What others have objected is that their proposed edits fail WP:V. Full context is: And if you are here to deny atomic theory in the name of Goethean science: go away, don't waste ~~out~~ our time with such nonsense. I consider their idea bad enough, but nobody else seems to care. I mean: denying atomic theory in the talk pages should not happen at Wikipedia, but at Uncyclopedia. I got offended by their wish to accept such claims within the pages of Wikipedia. Again, that's stuff for Uncyclopedia and I'm not going to tolerate it inside Wikipedia. There is https://www.freewiki.eu which is more accepting of their views. I know they mean it, since the founder of Anthroposophy was an enemy of the atomic theory. Source: [20]. Diff: [21]: I don't know what they meant, but they seem to imply that anti-atomism is a credible scientific theory.

Bona fide offer: [22]. I talk too much, so restricting the number of words is a good idea.

@Tamzin: There is a lot of vitriol in fringe/pseudoscience topics. I'm by far not the worst offender, many others go unnoticed. Sometimes I do feel offended by what other editors say about what should be included. Of course, that's not an excuse for mocking their POVs, but some POVs really do not belong at Wikipedia. And I don't have a neat solution for telling them that their POV is unwelcome.

@Theleekycauldron: I don't beat around the bush: I know that some POVs are unwelcome. I don't know how to make this clear to those having those POVs. Maybe they simply cannot get this point. I think the very attempt to persuade them they're Wikipedically wrong is fundamentally wrong. Yes, I did employ irony, but it was an attempt at persuasion. Perhaps persuasion is wrong. I think this is the lesson from WP:AE: I should not try to persuade them. That's a sad truth about human rationality. It seems that my whole approach based upon rational persuasion is flat-out wrong. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:01, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I was wrong: some people don't want to learn that their POVs are unwelcome, nor what WP:FRINGE means, nor how to WP:CITE WP:RS which do WP:V their claims ([23]). Formerly at WP:CIR used to be a section about biased-based failures to comply with our rules. So, I don't say that SamwiseGSix is irrational, but they simply cannot get the point due to their own bias. I wasn't even trying to persuade them they are wrong in the real-objective world, but simply wrong according to Wikipedia. tgeorgescu (talk) 23:51, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

My mistake is thinking that every newbie is eager to learn how to edit Wikipedia according to the WP:RULES. But many newbies simply want a quick fix to a PR issue. tgeorgescu (talk) 00:34, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[24] 13 November 2023.

Discussion concerning SamwiseGSix

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by SamwiseGSix

Hello everyone - simply seeking a rational and reasonably balanced NPOV here leveraging mainstream academic research, as the first intro sentence of the second paragraph is currently classifying the topic of the article flatly and comprehensively as 'racist pseudoscience' despite the founder's many leading anti-racist statements for his time, as both academic critics and proponents acknowledge. A more balanced WP:NPOV with fair recognition of WP:PSCI would arguably concede classifications of pseudoscience in many areas ('much of Anthroposophy is pseudoscientific') as currently written in the first intro paragraph, but avoid a comprehensive classification of 'racist pseudoscience' [period .] as currently written in 2nd which would be ignoring the academic research; much of which highlights the many leading anti-racist statements for the founder's time, often well ahead of his contemporaries/predecessors (President Wilson, K. Marx/Engalls et al on race etc) often still cited academically today. This flat/comprehensive classification results in unfair spin, arguably not adhering with the WP:NPOV standard for the Encyclopedia. I hope this makes sense overall? Not seeking to flout any rules or 'whitewash' (this term generally implies the coverup of a scandal or crime of some kind, right) in any way but rather simply seeking to bring a reasonable, balanced NPOV standard into play including in intro of second paragraph.

In considering the science, a significant amount of peer reviewed academic research has been published empirically measuring the positive affects of applying these insights in fields including education (3000 Waldorf Schools around the world, NYTimes and Independent.co.uk coverage etc), environmental conservation (Rachel Carson 'Silent Spring' impact w/ Marjorie Spock et al), banking (economists co-published with admins at central banks etc) and more. Although some of the related ideas from the movement are classifiable as 'pseudoscientific' by today's standards (as the intro paragraph does) there are many aspects of the body of work here that are scientifically measurable by our academic standards and significant minority opinions today. The comprehensive and wholesale classification of the entire movement and body of knowledge as just flatly 'racist psuedoscience' [.] is then arguably very unfair, and very arguably does not adhere to Wikipedia's very important WP:NPOV community standard. Please do let me know what your thoughts are - I do very much hope to be able to continue contributing constructively to Wikipedia including on this important page, which also deserves the treatment of a fair NPOV standard, thank you for your time and consideration. (I had not denied atomic theory or sought to drive any implications in this area - neither had I requested a sweeping endorsement of all ontology or epistemology. I had however been as a new editor consistently mocked/insulted and quite constantly subjected to highly inappropriate and disruptive battleground conduct etc though by the filing editor - hopefully this would be addressed with logged warning as discussed and actively prevented including with reasonable possible restrictions going forward as well)

As quick final supplement this journal article helps highlight the anti-racist statements and also underscores through deep rationality the importance of a fair NPOV for this page in this pivotal time/moment, including helping solve for human 'x-risk' which I thought I'd not been warned against mentioning as a keyword specifically, and which is also very arguably directly relevant/critical still to improving the article: "The Urgency of Social Threefolding in a World Still at War with Itself".. https://cosmosandhistory.org/index.php/journal/article/view/1069/1723

I consistently WP:CITE extensive WP:RS for WP:V and WP:NPOV in accordance with the WP:RULES as a new editor, but in return am consistently mocked, insulted and disrespected by the filing editor hm

Statement by caeciliusinhorto

tgeorgescu says I have posted at WP:FTN and WP:RSN about it, but most people don't seem to care. I will note that I saw a couple of those threads but didn't engage. This one from RSN illustrates the issue nicely, I think. To open that thread, tgeorgescu linked to an ongoing discussion at Talk:Anthroposophy#Epistemology, Ontology etc, which at the time looked like this: 45kb wikitext, nearly 5000 words, 100+ comments almost exclusively of back-and-forth between tgeorgescu and SamwiseGSix. It isn't difficult to see why most editors did not want to engage in this. The point at which a talkpage discussion between two people who do not agree becomes unproductive is way before they've each made fifty comments. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 16:31, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning SamwiseGSix

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I recognize that keeping the pseudoscientists out is probably one of the longest standing aspects of Wikipedia subculture, but boy do I not like the conduct of either party at Talk:Anthroposophy. I'm not going to deny that a large extent of SamwiseGSix's contribs seem to be POV pushing against the scientific consensus (although, as one user noted in the RSN thread, they're doing so with what at a glance look to be rather reputable sources) – but goodness, tgeorgescu, an editor of your experience should know better than to spend that much time and ink mocking a new user's beliefs and throwing every template you can find at them (and apparently the contents of a whole essay). Stuff like this isn't exactly helpful, either. If you think you've found a troublemaker, and you can clearly see that talk page discussion isn't going to turn up positive results, post to a noticeboard or find an admin on your own. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 19:56, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I was gonna write out a whole thing, but Tamzin said it better. Tgeorgescu could've easily walked away from this whole situation with strong consensus for his version and maybe even sanctions for SamwiseGSix, depending on how unwilling they were to abide by that consensus. But instead, they bludgeoned their way through talk, RSN, and FTN, with a clear tone of disrespect and sometimes incivility – and then they doubled down on all of it here. A logged warning to the filer would be appropriate, and the polite suggestion seems reasonable given that there's not much of a case for something stronger. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 19:10, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@tgeorgescu: Going forward, I'd recommend leafing through WP:CONTENTDISPUTE and picking the options you think are best. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 20:04, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to go along with leeky here - when things start going around in circles in a discussion, the best thing to do is to get outside input. Frankly, I don't care enough to dig further into the details about what Anthroposophy IS to figure out if it is really fringe or not - not an area where I care to invest my time. But the way this dispute has been laid out, it doesn't make it easy for me to see that either editor is "wrong" enough to sanction. Frankly, tgeorgescu, your way to setting out the dispute is unhelpful. Why are you constantly quoting other editors - the use of quotes of other editors just serves to obscfurcate the issue rather than ellucidating it. Ealdgyth (talk) 13:15, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with a logged warning at the least. I could also go with a topic ban from the whole topic area of pseudoscience, but even if it's just a logged warning, I'd like for tgeorgescu to take on board that they need to stop the battleground approach to this topic area (that of pseudoscience broadly speaking) - we should not be mocking editors or subjects, no matter how wrong they are. If you think that mocking is needed, you've probably gotten into a battleground mindset and should step back until you don't feel the need to mock. 20:08, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
Can I ask that both editors stop fidgeting with their statements, please? It's ... not helpful and it makes it hard to keep track of what's being said when it's constantly under flux. Ealdgyth (talk) 22:32, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Samwise - you need to stop making comments such as "If he is indeed whitewashing for such truly fascist and anti-human activity" or "which seems to make the filing editor uncomfortable" which is just as battlegroundy as the editor who filed this. A very good rule for editing conflicts is to NOT comment on the other editor or speculate on their motivations. We're not here to "win" a debate/battle/whatever. Given this - I'm inclined to warn both editors for battleground behavior. Please stop commenting on the other editor and stick to the sources. If you reach an sticking point - the steps/advice at WP:DISPUTE are helpful and good steps to take. Ealdgyth (talk) 01:05, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Tgeorgescu: Your comment that you are "not mocking a living person, but a guru who died almost a century ago" is illustrative of the disconnect here. We're not here to mock anyone. We're here to write an encyclopedia. Sometimes that involves debunking pseudoscience, in mainspace and on talkpages, sometimes in ways that would offend the purveyors of that pseudoscience, but Wikipedia is not a debate club or a skeptics' subreddit. As Ealdgyth says, if you're talking in circles, you should get feedback then, not after 5,000 words of debate. You don't get any points for "winning" the argument. Samwise suggested getting a third opinion on 30 October, and you responded by linking to two blog posts rather than taking them up on that.
My overall take here is that this is a content dispute, and that, if discussion continues, both parties should be encouraged to seriously moderate the amount they write. Keep comments short and to the matter under discussion: "I think source X supports statement Y because Z"; "I think source X is actually unreliable because W". If one wants to debate the philosophical underpinnings of anthroposophy, or the failure of organic agriculture in Sri Lanka or whether arguments at Waldorf schools are the result of gnomes, there are plenty of forums online for that, but a Wikipedia talkpage is not one. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe|she) 02:06, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Tgeorgescu: It really seems like you're treating this like a battleground. There's some CTOPs where that perception might be inevitable, but I don't think this is one of them. The community is overwhelmingly anti-pseudoscience, and there is no organized effort to promote this particular fringe viewpoint on-wiki, as far as I can tell. (The related Waldorf education discretionary sanctions were repealed almost 2 years ago, having not been used since 2014.) Rather, this just reads like you brow-beating someone for being Wrong, jumping through tangentially related topics in order to score points, in a way that does not relate to building an encyclopedia. And it continues, in this thread! Where does atomic theory come into this? You're the one who brought that up, on three separate occasions now, which just seems like bait. The fact that you're continuing to argue all of this here, as I and others tell you that such conduct is unhelpful, is concerning. And I'm not saying Samwise's conduct is great, but it's hard to follow the logic for sanctions when it comes draped in layers of superiority. At this point I'm inclined to close this with a logged warning to you for disruptive editing in the form of excessive arguing and battleground conduct, and a polite suggestion to Samwise that their editing abilities may be better-suited elsewhere. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe|she) 18:40, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Tgeorgescu: Re your offer on my talk, I think such a sanction would be only, essentially, treating the symptoms. The issue isn't that you have extraordinarily strong feelings about anthroposophy. We have a broad but shallow issue here, not a deep but narrow one. Broad because it covers all of fringe/pseudoscience topics, shallow because this is something you can fix on your own without a need for any formal sanctions. And I guess I'll add a third, dimension: complex. Word count is only a proxy for the problem, and an imperfect one at that: There can be constructive discussions that run 5k+ words, and disruptive discussions that run only a few comments. The issue is how you are treating your peers, no more, no less. You are an experienced editor and I'm hoping that an AE warning could serve as a wake-up call that fighting pseudoscience is not an exception from our user conduct policies. You are still expected to have civil discussions on article talkpages built around what should or should not be in the article (not built on whether another user's actual or perceived POV is stupid, nor what other things they might believe), and to seek dispute resolution in a timely, civil, and non-bludgeoning fashion if you reach an impasse. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe|she) 19:33, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I am uncomfortable with the amount of hostility in comments like the ones linked above, as well as "go away, don't waste our time with such nonsense" (at Talk:Anthroposophy). If someone is really so bad that they deserve comments like this, they're bad enough to warrant escalating the dispute, so why just sit there on the talk page and insult them? jp×g 🗯️ 06:06, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

82.45.48.180

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning 82.45.48.180

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Kathleen's bike (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 21:00, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: 82.45.48.180 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

19:04, 23 October 2023 States as fact in Patrick Ryan (Irish priest) that he was a "terrorist", he is also a living person
14:39, 30 October 2023 Repeats previous edit
14:40, 30 October 2023 Repeats previous edit
17:22, 13 November 2023 Repeats previous edit

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

Blocked on 03:21, March 31, 2023

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Notifed at 14:44, October 30, 2023

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

This editor has been using a variety of IP addresses since February 2023, including 82.46.125.57 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 81.141.173.209 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) and 109.158.169.88 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). I have created a page at User:Kathleen's bike/IPs that shows the editing similarites between the IPs, a sockpuppetry report would achieve little at preseent since people are allowed to use different IPs. However it does demonstrate the long history of disruption from this editor. They have been directed to WP:LABEL/WP:TERRORIST three occasions by three different editors, on 13:05, April 30, 2023, 14:58, May 11, 2023 and 14:44, October 30, 2023. Their user talk page messages of 09:46, April 30, 2023 and 14:58, May 11, 2023 show they receive messages, so there can be no excuse of being unaware of the objections to their edits. The history of the four known IPs show this disruptive editing has been going on for a long time, and in my opinion needs to be curtailed.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Here

Discussion concerning 82.45.48.180

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by 82.45.48.180

Statement by (username)

Result concerning 82.45.48.180

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

This is a long history of nationalist POV-pushing across several IPs. A particularly troubling detail is that it's the same few kinds of edits each time (viz. terrorism-labeling, nationality-warring, and the fringe view that "British rule" is an inaccurate way to describe pre-Republic Ireland), showing that this editor is not taking the hint from reverts, nor from Ad Orientem's block in March. I am inclined to block the IP for 3 months, with the understanding that that should be treated as an indef against the editor behind the IP—but will hold back at least briefly to give them a chance to explain why such a sanction is not necessary to prevent disruption. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe|she) 05:48, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Tamzin here - unless the editor-behind-the-IP weighs in with something super-contrite-and-game-changing, a three month (or more) block seems sound. Ealdgyth (talk) 13:21, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agree fully with my colleagues above; and I'd add that although I don't currently see a range block that would fix anything, that is an option we should keep in mind if further IPs pop up. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:46, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

FUNSTON3

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning FUNSTON3

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Kathleen's bike (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 21:31, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: FUNSTON3 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

14:55, November 14, 2023 Adds unsourced claim regarding "local civilian Protestants", and attempts to dispute findings of an inquest jury with "This was never proven" and "This is despite Sean Lynch being arrested, and given first aid by the army and police at the scene"
20:26, November 14, 2023 As previous edit, with a further attempt to dispute the inquest findings with "The only witness to the alleged killing of McElwaine after his arrest was Sean Lynch, who was convicted on firearms and explosive offences" and more unsourced claims such as "He was also known by the local people as a renowned PIRA sectarian murderer, responsible for up to 20 deaths" and "McElwaine previously had tried to murder Foster's father"
15:29, June 26, 2019 Adds various unsourced claims
17:53, July 20, 2019 Adds further unsourced claim at the previous article
09:47, May 1, 2019 Adds unsourced claim that a living person "indiscriminately opened fire at a group of men outside a Loyalist bar, killing one and injuring the others. When he was sentenced for the crimes, he openly laughed out loud"
14:17, April 24, 2019 More attempts to dispute sourced content with "Most of this cannot be corroborated"
09:56, April 7, 2019 More "this has never been proven" nonsense
09:45, April 7, 2019 Adds unsourced claim
09:19, April 7, 2019 Even more "This has never been proven" nonsense
09:16, April 7, 2019 Adds unsourced claim that "Holroyd’s evidence could not be verified and other statements by him lacked credibility. It has since been proven that Nairac could not have been at the incident"
14:53, October 23, 2018 Usual attempts to discredit with addition of "unfounded", "allegedly" and a couple of sentences of their own commentary
09:09, July 26, 2018 More of the same with "allegedly", "supposedly" and "There is no evidence to substantiate whether this unit was ever disbanded, and it appears this was based on innuendos and an IRA attempt to gain some moral ground"
14:28, November 1, 2016 Deletes paragraph of sourced content, adds "There was an allegation", "This was blatantly untrue, as there were few members of the Security Forces there that day. The only possible target could have been the youth organisations" and "mistakenly contended"

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

None.

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Notified at 15:33, October 24, 2019

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

This editor only edits in the Troubles area, and as far as I can see, has zero positive edits in their entire history. I realise some diffs are quite old, but they only edit occasionally and have resurfaced after four years.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Here

Discussion concerning FUNSTON3

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by FUNSTON3

Statement by (username)

Result concerning FUNSTON3

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Selfstudier

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Selfstudier

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: BilledMammal (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 01:33, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Selfstudier (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 4#ARBPIA General Sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Violated WP:1RR on Al-Shifa Hospital siege.

At 12:07, 15 November 2023 they made their first revert in 24 hours.

Then, between 14:58 and 15:18 they made three separate edits, constituting a single revert; 15:18, 15 November 2023, 15:02, 15 November 2023, and 14:58, 15 November 2023.

These reinstated in wikivoice the use of the description "siege" for the event, reverting an edit I made to attribute that description in line with the sources in the article. They also reinstated two specific aspects that I had removed:

With the 15:02 edit, in the infobox, they changed Al-Shifa Hospital clashes to Al-Shifa Hospital siege. My edit had changed that from siege to clashes.
With the 15:18 edit, they changed the section header Clashes to Preliminary clashes and siege. My edit had changed that from Siege and attacks to Clashes.

I approached them with a request that they self-revert; they eventually self-reverted the change to the infobox, but have implicitly refused to revert further, having neither continued the conversation on their talk page or made the reverts, despite having made dozens of edits since that discussion, including to the article in question - as such I feel I have no other option to resolve this other than to bring it here.

Related to this, though not sufficient to warrant a post here on its own, there has also been a level of incivility with comments directed at editors rather than content:

In response to my addition of a POV-tag to the article, they said Throwing toys out of the pram, pay no attention.
In response to Novem Linguae's removal of a Reuters source they said So now the anti siege editors are going around knocking out siege refs in the article.

When I approached them about this, along with request to be more mindful about avoiding commenting on other editors as over the years I have noticed this to be a bit of a habit for them and it contributes to the toxicity of this topic area, they instead doubled down on the pram comment and refused to adjust either to align with our civility policies.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

23:38, 1 July 2020 Formally warned for 1RR violations in the topic area; cautioned that When in doubt, self-revert.

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Placed a {{Contentious topics/aware}} template for the area of conflict on their own talk page.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

To respond to a few points and clarify my statement:

I removed unattributed claims that this was a siege; Selfstudier restored those claims. This is a revert.
We’re getting into content, but I believe that if the majority of reliable sources attribute a claim then we need to do the same to comply with NPOV. Reasonable editors can disagree with this, but my position isn’t unreasonable.
The POV tag was unrelated to the title and to the status of the RM; I added it because of the restoration of the use of "siege" in wikivoice to the article.

12:00, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

01:32, 16 November 2023

Discussion concerning Selfstudier

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Selfstudier

This all took place in the space of some hours on 15 November. Filers First edit to the article changed "siege" to "clashes" in the infobox along with the reference in Wikivoice to a siege in the first line of the lead and another in the article body, asserting in edit summary that an RM opened by filer 20 minutes earlier proved that siege in Wikivoice was inappropriate.

I did not notice this edit at the time because I was engaged in back and forth on the talk page at the RM unsuccessfully attempting to persuade filer to drop the RM due to the easy availability of reliable sources calling the event a siege. I then set about adding some of these sources into the article and in the process of doing so reverted filer's infobox edit changing "siege" to clashes" above (I added a source for "siege" at the same time). When this was pointed out, I self reverted. My edits were intended as constructive and were not otherwise reverts. Filer then added an undue inline tag to one of the sources that I had added with the same reasoning as in their first edit ie that Wikivoice was inappropriate because filer said so in their RM.

The RM did not proceed to filers liking and a pointy POV tag was added here, again justified by reference to the reasoning given in filers RM. No conversation regarding this tag was opened by filer in talk but another editor eventually opened a talk section querying the basis for the tag and was backed up by a second editor, both understanding that the tag was being placed due to the RM. I confess to being a tad irritated with filers behavior and added a throwaway comment at this point to the effect that filer was merely being pointy in adding the tag. Filer then asserted that the issue was "broader" than that but once again merely repeated their own assertion made in the RM.

Judging by the current status of the RM, filers POV is not at all convincing. Essentially boils down to filer making an assertion by way of RM and then attempting to force through filers opinion on the subject regardless of evidence being presented to the contrary.

Statement by Iskandar323

I find the substance here extremely lacking. BilledMammal has provided a list of diffs of alleged reverts, with little explanation on the substance, and only two clear examples of material that was reverted. Of those two, it is freely admitted that the latter was promptly self-reverted by the accused upon request. That would be the logical end of the content dispute for most editors. My eyebrows are raised slightly higher by BilledMammal's obviously unconstructive altering of the infobox title away from the page title - but in line with their dissatisfaction with the title. This is the sort of quickly reverted action that one normally sees coming from IPs and non-autoconfirmed users, not experienced editors that know the ropes better. BilledMammal's addition of a POV tag to the page, again in relation to the title's terminology, is also WP:POINT-y. I have been generally unimpressed by this editor's behaviour in recent weeks in this CT area, but here they appear to be showcasing combative editing. BilledMammal also raises some issues about civility, but this is a bit pot kettle black given that BM's opening comment on Selfstudier's talk page accused them of "contributing to the toxicity" of the topic area while flagging: "I've also noticed over the years ... - so requesting civility while accusing them of toxicity and highlighting what is hard not to interpret as a statement of some sort of longstanding grudge/chip on the shoulder. Altogether, this is filing comes across as altogether unimpressive in terms of substance and misdirected. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:16, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Zero0000

BilledMammal changed a section title from "Siege and attacks" to "Clashes". Selfstudier then changed it to "Preliminary clashes and siege". Calling this a revert seems a stretch. It looks to me more like an attempt at compromise. Zero^talk 09:40, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Objective3000

Can't stuff like this be handled on the article talk page?[25] O3000, Ret. (talk) 12:19, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Selfstudier

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

[1] The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.

[2] This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

[a]

[b]

@@ Line 205: / Line 205: @@
 As quick final supplement this journal article helps highlight the anti-racist statements and also underscores through deep rationality the importance of a fair NPOV for this page in this pivotal time/moment, including helping solve for human 'x-risk' which I thought I'd not been warned against mentioning as a keyword specifically, and which is also very arguably directly relevant/critical still to improving the article: "The Urgency of Social Threefolding in a World Still at War with Itself".. https://cosmosandhistory.org/index.php/journal/article/view/1069/1723
+I consistently [[WP:CITE]] extensive [[WP:RS]] for [[WP:V]] and [[WP:NPOV]] in accordance with the [[WP:RULES]] as a new editor, but in return am consistently mocked, insulted and disrespected by the filing editor hm
-I consistently [[WP:CITE]] extensive [[WP:RS]] for [[WP:V]] and [[WP:NPOV]] in accordance with the [[WP:RULES]] which seems to make the filing editor uncomfortable, resulting in his violations of community standards with disruptive battleground conduct, and extensive mocking and insulting of new editor(s). If you review the WP:FTN noticeboard action he aggressively brought, and search "transition to full state authoritarianism" you can also find him arguably continuing to actually 'whitewash' for Italian fascist activities around 1919 (which he has also arguably done as an editor on the Anthroposophy page under the 'Religious Nature' section under 'Reception' as well hm) He even sought to add ''11 citations in the article intro paragraph'' labeling the movement as 'neo-gnosticism' as the Catholic Church was pressured to do during the great [[Fascist_and_anti-Fascist_violence_in_Italy_(1919–1926)|fascist upheavals from 1919 - 1926]] in Italy ending with the [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateran_Treaty|Lateran Treaty]]. If he is indeed whitewashing for such truly fascist and anti-human activity, then he should of course be closely monitored, and sanctioned for his violations of community standards etc accordingly hm [[User:SamwiseGSix|SamwiseGSix]] ([[User talk:SamwiseGSix|talk]]) 00:45, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
 ====Statement by caeciliusinhorto====

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