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October 15

Son of the Mob

Does anyone happen to know where I can find a summary of the book "Son of the mob" by Gordon Korman? If you could post it here, that would be great. Thanks in advance! --IluvNicholas 00:04, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Amazon.com and other online retailers often include a short synopsis (for example) though they tend not to give you the ending. Google is your friend here. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:04, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

What is the best way to smuggle Cocaine?

Dear Wikipedia contributors,

What is the best way to smuggle cocaine from Colombia to the United States? The reason for this question is because I am planning to write a novel chronicling the adventures of Esteban Sanchez, a 17-year old teenager forced into drug smuggling by his poor single-mother. Esteban meets Rosario, a strange, but beautiful brunette much like Michelle Rodriguez. They talk and make deals and Esteban is at the point where he has to find a way to smuggle the powdered cocaine. How should Esteban do this? I beg of you to take into consideration his safety. Thanks you so much!

71.18.216.110 01:46, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I cannot tell you the various benefits of different methods (I expect the best methods are not yet discovered) as I don't go near the stuff, let alone deal or smuggle it. However, things you would need to take into account are the amount that they are supposed to smuggle (can it be taken by a single person?), the method of travel (commercial airline, surface travel through Mexico, ocean, etc), the amount of health risk the people are willing to take (carrying the cocaine in condoms inside the body is less detectable, but very risky, while a secret pocket in luggage is not a health risk, but easily detectable), and so on. Esteban's and Rosario's contacts are also important - are they able to bribe or blackmail a border official in advance? Bribery and blackmail is probably the safest method, because the border is the most dangerous part. However, the con to this approach is that there is someone in an official place who knows what you have done, and will dob you in if they are caught themselves. In addition it is also open to double-crossing (a common plot device in a thriller novel). A handy word for Esteban's role is 'mule', which refers to someone forced into smuggling drugs against their will. A mule's smuggling technique is often very risky, and they will not necessarily know for whom they are smuggling the drugs.Steewi 02:33, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

You might find the United States Drug Enforcement Agency's (DEA) Microgram Bulletin an interesting read. Skim through a few issues from the Bulletin archives to get an idea of the sort of creative things the DEA has run across. This issue describes plastic manufactured to contain 7% cocaine and formed into suitcase components, and hollow Aztec statues full of cocaine bricks. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:11, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Look up the book Snow Blind which is all about a guy who smuggled cocaine and his different methods. Also the various Howard Marks books as its all smuggling. Don't do it for real. Prison life is wasted life. Paul —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.86.166.234 (talk) 10:47, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Your novel would be more interesting if you invented a novel method of smuggling. I would think along the lines of the safest method being not to have any contact with the goods themselves; they make their own way over the border using a their own transport that couln't be traced back to the sender. For example, see radio-controlled aircraft, carrier pigeon, bat bomb...--Shantavira|^{feed me} 12:47, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

It does sort of depend on the novel. If you want to convey the grim cold inhumanity of the drug trade, you need something believable, so you're best of with something that everybody knows about (like swallowing balloons). It would break the dramatic tension if young Esteban, in the middle of his despair, suddenly decided to build a cocaine catapult. (The whole thing could turn into a sort of deranged roadrunner-like string of failed schemes). risk 23:30, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

"(The whole thing could turn into a sort of deranged roadrunner-like string of failed schemes)." I would read such a novel. 69.95.50.15 13:24, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Certainly the most horrific thing i've had the mispleasure to read in my life was a short story of an individual who smuggled cocaine in the innards of a young baby, they had 'balled out' and the innards filled with the cocaine. I can only hope the story was made up. Personally I really enjoy 'con man' style movies/books etc. so something that is really 'intelligent' and thought through. Doing things 'right under the eyes' of the authorities often makes for excitement/interest as you can build tension about close-calls etc. I'm not sure of a premise, but something that involves maybe throwing the 'dogs' off the scent at the airport, perhaps by setting up a smaller but more vocal drugs bust on the same flight - you might then be able to make it believable that your individual could 'sneak' through in the middle of the excitement. After all you wouldn't expect to catch 2 drugs busts on the same flight (well I wouldn't!) ny156uk 13:07, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

The story about using a dead baby to smuggle cocaine never really happened. It's just an urban legend.[1] MrRedact 18:51, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

It would be pretty responsible writing if your "hero" got caught and spent the rest of his life in prison as a moral lesson to others. 87.112.85.54 12:19, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

• You might like to see Maria Full of Grace, which is about a drug mule. If I personally had to smuggle drugs into the US, I would design and build a cruise missile that I would launch from the Mexican desert, from where it would fly over a dropoff point (via GPS) in the US to drop its load, and then fly out over the Pacific and self-destruct. --Sean 15:37, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

2 questions

Hello, I have 2 questions.

1: In WWII, the Air Force fighter designation was "P" (like P-51 Mustang and P-47 Thunderbolt), why wasn't it F?

2: If a stealth fighter fought an enemy stealth fighter, they'd have to be in visual range to fire, right?

Thanks. Cheers,JetLover (Report a mistake) 02:40, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

• 1) "P" was the prefix for "Pursuit" aircraft. If you'll peruse the "Post World War II" paragraph in the P-51 article, you'll notice they talk some about when SAC changed the designators.

2) F-117A's (the current airframe usually referred to as a "stealth fighter") are largely invisible to radar, but they themselves do not carry radar equipment (it's impossible to use a radar and be invisible to other radar sensors, so there's a tradeoff). They use thermal imaging to spot targets, mostly, and anything with a jet engine does put out a thermal signature, so they can use that to track in on each other, I imagine. Luckily, they are only in use by the US right now, and so wouldn't usually engage each other. They are (according to the F-117 Nighthawk article) slated for decommissioning next year, and the Air Force has closed down the flight school. The next generation fighter, the F-22 Raptor, hasn't really been fielded enough to answer the question (imho). Deltopia 03:23, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

It's also worth noting that despite the name, the F-117 isn't a fighter; it's a very small bomber. It's not very agile, and carries no air-to-air weaponry. FiggyBee 08:24, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! Cheers,JetLover (Report a mistake) 22:35, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah - the stealth doesn't have any way to attack an enemy aircraft unless it's parked on an airfield someplace. They are also horribly un-aerobatic - they certainly don't 'dogfight' - and they are too slow to run away from any moderately modern plane. They are entirely dependant on stealth - once they've been spotted - they are in deep trouble. Whilst they certainly use really excellent thermal imaging - I'm fairly sure the camera looks mostly downwards. As for spotting a stealth fighter using thermal imaging - that's not as easy as it sounds. The F117 isn't just "radar invisible" - it's also close to thermally invisible too. The jet exhausts are much lower temperature than most jet aircraft (and they have no afterburners). The jet exhaust comes out at slower speeds through a bunch of special 'diffusers' along the wings that cool the exhaust before releasing it. It's engines are pretty quiet too - it's hard to hear it coming! It's weird shape even helps by confusing the eye - it just doesn't look like an airplane and it changes profile as it changes direction to a much greater degree than other planes. So it would be harder to recognise at normal air combat ranges. SteveBaker 03:52, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Isn't the B-2 Spirit US Air Force's current top-of-the-line specialty stealth bomber? Acceptable 02:09, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Big decision

Playstation 3 or x box 360? i dont know which 1 2 get can anyone help me out, i have a new samsung so i wud like 1 with best graphics and sound quality but i dnt know much about it.......thanx : ) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.144.161.223 (talk) 08:42, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Wii, hands down! Aaadddaaammm 08:43, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

well both of them kinda suck wii is always the best but between those two.... XBOX 360 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dlo2012 (talk • contribs) 20:27, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

While wii is the best, it's as unhelpful as going to the computer desk with a windows problem and being told "switch to linux". Between PS3 and Xbox 360, my personal choice is the 360 - I've got that lined up for a second console purchase. It's much more affordable, and PS3 doesn't have any exclusive games that, to me, justify the price tag; in addition, I can't afford an HD TV, so blue-ray and HD capacities are useless to me. The best graphics and sound quality are in the PS3; if you want it for playing movies, and your samsung is a giant HD monster of a TV, that's your best bet. If you want to play games, however, I'd go 360. And hey, pick up a copy of Orange Box while you're at it, a friend brought over their 360 and I've not had as much fun with a game in years (Portal, natch). Kuronue | Talk 04:04, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Big decision

Playstation 3 or x box 360? i dont know which 1 2 get can anyone help me out, i have a new samsung so i wud like 1 with best graphics and sound quality and which 1 would have the best games but i dnt know much about it.......thanx : ) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.144.161.223 (talk) 08:43, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Well the PS3 hasn't got that extensive a library yet (compared to the 360) but when you buy either you have to remember that the last generation of consoles lasted around 5/6 years so whatever you choose the games on them will only get better. Just compare the first few years of PS2 games to the most recent releases. I personally prefer the PS3 control pad so would go for that but it really is preference. I think the PS3 has slightly better raw power than the X-box a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_video_game_consoles_%28seventh_generation%29 gives a nice side-by-side comparison though. ny156uk 12:59, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

For me it's not much of a decision, because Halo 3 is only ever going to be available for the Xbox 360. But you may not be the Halo fan that I am so you should take a hard look here and here and decide for yourself. Also the Wii is super cool and should be given consideration. Man It's So Loud In Here 16:52, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Get the one that's cheapest and has the biggest library with the most popular games, of course: The PS2. (Seriously, $600 for a launch system with no game library? That's rent money in a lot of places. And ridiculous.) If saving money is important at all to you, wait a year or two before you buy any of the next-gen consoles -- there will be more games, better games, and cheaper prices if history is any indicator. Early adopters get screwed hardest. (Just my opinion.) Deltopia 17:52, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Rent money? For over two months! Skittle 22:25, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

True story - my mortgage when I lived in Augusta, Georgia, was just under $600, for a three bedroom, nice house in a decent neighborhood. I live in Maryland now; you can rent a mailbox for that much here. A lot of it is definitely in where you live :) But still, if I lived back there, I would be too tempted to spend the spare $500 to make a principal payment on my home loan; I would never be able to convince myself to buy a playstation with it. Crazy. Deltopia 14:25, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I recommend getting the one that has a game that you simply must have - until then hold onto your money and bide your time - let them come to you>83.100.252.179 18:53, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm a games programmer - I work with both Xbox-360 and PS-3 consoles every day. I could list yards and yards of pro's and con's for each console type (well, I couldn't - we sign NDAs and stuff) - but it doesn't matter. It really doesn't. For the majority of games that come out on both systems (or on both systems AND the PC - such as the game I'm working on), it's very unlikely that games teams will go to a lot of effort to produce a game that looks different on the two consoles because one is better than the other. So for games that come out on both machines, it doesn't matter a damn which console you buy - or even if you run it on a PC - the game experience will be very, very similar. So the only reason to prefer one over the other is for 'exclusive; titles that come out specially for that machine and not on the other. Hence the decision comes down to price and whether you prefer the kinds of exclusive games on one console versus those on the other. The Wii is something else - it's cheap - nowhere near as capable as the other two - and the games are WAY different. If you like Wii games, buy a Wii - nothing else will do. SteveBaker 01:58, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

trivia and popular culture

I strongly suggest wikipedia start a new wikiproject for trivia and popular culture references. I know the official policy is to incorporate the trivia sections into the main text of the article, but personally, my favorite wiki/websurfing activity is to read the trivia sections of articles. I find so many fascinating odds and ends and tidbits of information. Plus, the trivia section has so many interesting links to other wiki articles. Occasionally I revisit an article only to find the whole trivia section removed. That always makes me sad. I wonder how many articles I've visited and never got to read the trivia section. I check the history but it rarely says "trivia section removed." It just says "cleanup."

Anyway, just a thought I wanted to pass on to someone or at least release it into the ether of wiki and the internet. Could someone at least pass this on to someone who makes these types of decisions? Or maybe wikipedia should have a suggestion box or a poll for ideas like this that people can vote on and users could view the results. Thanks.Ozmaweezer 11:37, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Its a community wide decision to remove trivia sections from articles, one that I disagree with, by the way. Think outside the box 12:03, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree, it is a shame and I feel that Wiki has lost one of it iconic 'quirks'. Lanfear's Bane 12:38, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I feel it's not so much a community wide decision, as a community-wide ongoing endless debate. See Wikipedia talk:Trivia sections for part of it (including 8 archived pages, and I'm sure there are other places where the discussion rages on). Considering that the first four people in this thread (me included) believe that trivia sections should be allowed, I don't think we have a consensus just yet. risk 13:03, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Make it five in favour of allowing trivia sections. DuncanHill 16:25, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd favor them if they could be managed better, i.e. if they weren't magnets for ever-growing heaps of badly-written clutter. —Tamfang 16:29, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps Wikimedia needs to be extended to "understand" trivia sections and show them to the (seeming) large majority who like them and hide them from the (small but vocal) minority who think they're sub-elite cruft. Personally, I've cut way back on my contributions to the encyclopedia as certain cliques have made it less and less fun to contribute.

Atlant 18:15, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

The biggest problem with trivia articles and sections is that they're hardly ever sourced. It's all along the lines of "well, read the book or watch the movie", but that violates WP:V. Corvus cornix 17:06, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I too love the trivia. What more can I say? I'll bet there are some awful ones in the popular culture/latest fads articles - anyone got a really bad example - just for fun (I know this is fundamentally wrong)83.100.252.179 18:51, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you guys just start a trivia wiki? It could have no real content, only trivial content. Your "What TriviaWiki Is Not" statement could be "a real encyclopedia". I'm sure people would flock to it. Make it GFDL compliant and you can use the deleted Wikipedia sections without any trouble. --24.147.86.187 20:11, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I've removed trivia sections and incorporated them into the main article. This has been because trivia sections are supposed to be places for people (inexperienced with Wikipedia usually) to add facts that they don't know how to incorporate into the article, or so I understand. Also (and this is usually why I do it) because a trivia section gathers stupid nonsense. After a few weeks of sorting through rubbish, I tend to incorporate good stuff into the article (in a way that usually adds to the meaning of the 'trivia' and increases the usefulness of the article) and delete the stuff that doesn't belong. I've tried just maintaining the sections, but it's never-ending and it's really unfair to expect people to work out what doesn't belong in Wikipedia, and how they can improve it by writing lovely, cited facts, when this stuff is there, inviting them to add rubbish. Plus, the 'trivia' and 'in popular culture' sections have to be among the most mocked, devaluing sections to the general public, reducing Wikipedia as a whole in the public's eyes. Which is annoying. Skittle 22:23, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is a conundrum. Some "trivia" sections do contain some truly awful stuff; but on the other hand I've found some gems there too, which have sent me off in unexpected directions, leading to the creation of new articles. We also find bits of "trivia" embedded in the guts of articles, which have to be surgically removed. I guess it comes down to what one means by "trivia" - one person's trivia is another person's valuable information, depending on their particular interests. Some articles have what is essentially a trivia section labelled as "Other" or similar. Maybe we should re-label "Trivia" sections as "Pending Inclusion" or something like that (I know it's a contradiction in terms, because they're already part of the article, just not in a very prominent place in the article). That way, readers would get that that they're not fully accepted, and may never make it into the article proper - or, they may. -- JackofOz 22:39, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. If the pages didn't have to look encyclopedic in the meantime, I'd heavily favour such an option. Part of the problem does seem to be the title, since people assume it should be filled with trivial things they happen to know (or 'know') about the article's subject. It can seem a bit like the theory whereby people fill whatever space you provide (which I'm sure has a proper name, and probably an article, plus many interesting links to fascinating articles, but sadly I must go to bed now :) rather than look it up on google, as my heart truly desires). I've found lovely things in trivia sections, but then I've found lovely things in all parts of articles (except perhaps the dense middle-sections of some technical articles, which seem to be written for people who already understand and know everything the section says). I suppose the challenge (which I shall now make my life's work) is to incorporate 'trivia' into articles in such a way that skim-readers read the section and notice the interesting fact. Skittle 23:36, 15 October 2007 (UTC) Oh, and if you want an example of how stupidly awful such sections can be, I seem to remember And did those feet in ancient time being very bad in the past. Try checking the history, maybe how it looked in May... Skittle 23:54, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

This is certainly a tricky one. I'm not a deletionist - I want Wikipedia to contain all information of all kinds. However, the problem with trivia is that it's just never kept at the quality levels a truly useful encyclopedia demands. It's FAR too easy for any random person to come along and tack on a trivia item to an existing list - who ever checks it? If they don't provide a solid reference, how can you check it? We've all seen those emailed "List of 101 amazing facts" - about 90% which are urban legends - or easily disproved - we can't allow that to happen to Wikipedia. Sure a good, solid list of boo-boos in a particular movie is interesting to read. But how interesting would the list be if 90% of the items in the list were flat out untrue? It would just be pointless and annoying.

These lists all too frequently end up a complete and utter mess. A dedicated editor, trying to maintain a high quality article has a HORRIBLE time. If the trivia section has a handful of items in it, people (mostly anon editors with zero prior editing history) will relentlessly add more and more - none of them checkable - half of them untrue - most of them entirely irrelevent. When you try to clean them out, the people who stuck them in there will rant and edit war and threaten to set the admins on you (like that's going to work!) - they'll generally be an utter pain in the ass. So - in the end, we're better off without this stuff.

I've written two articles to the best standard that Wikipedia espouses (ie they made it onto the front page as featured articles) - and one of them had a trivia section of sorts. That article was about the Mini (a variety of British car). At the time, it seemed a good idea to list the important movies that the Mini appeared in. This was for the serious reason that the car ended up being a cult icon of the 'swinging-60's - and that had a lot to do with how it was shown in the media. Well, I picked a handful of movies in which the car had 'starred' prominently (eg, "The Italian Job", "Goodbye PorkPie", etc) without which the Mini would not have been the success it was. I swear - within a month of doing that, we had 'grown' a list of 60 or more movies and a bunch of TV programs! Some of them (eg "The Bourne Identity") undoubtedly 'starred' the car - but couldn't possibly have 'influenced' it because they were made after the car ceased production!

Then I watched one of the movies that was listed (I think it was "Hotel Rwanda") - and after watching the movie all the way through, I didn't spot a Mini ANYWHERE in the darned thing. When I challanged the editor, he pointed out that it was off in the distance, parked someplace in ONE scene. Argh! That's a totally USELESS piece of information. If every item appearing in every movie for the briefest of moments should be listed in a trivia section for that item, the encyclopedia would end up being mostly gigantic lists of completely irrelevent information! When I decided to delete that entry - we ended up with a 3RR violation from the other guy - then all sorts of other nastiness. Appeals to higher authority...you name it.

It was WAY out of hand. Back then, we hadn't gotten to the present situation where trivia sections can be reasonably be deleted on sight - so to avoid any more major arguments, I decided to fork off a second article "List of Movies with Mini cars in them" - linked to it from the main article and moved almost all of the list over there - keeping only those few items that could be worked into nice prose descriptions of how these movies influenced sales and popularity of the car. In other words - ONLY mention movies that influenced the history of the car - not mentioning any where the car merely happened to be the one the producer happened to have handy on the day!

Eventually, the deletionists AfD'd my "List of Movies with Mini cars in them"...which I think is a shame, actually. But the article about the Mini is MUCH better off without that ever-growing, unmaintainable, unsourced, never-complete list. Overall, I think that getting rid of 'trivia' sections everywhere is not appropriate. Having sourced lists of errors in movies, easter eggs in computer games, that kind of thing - IS relevent - and the suggestion to turn those into prose is often unhelpful. But having "Trivia" and "Appearances in the Popular Culture" sections being tacked onto articles as automatically as "See Also" and "References" are is a truly terrible idea and it absolutely has to be stamped out.

SteveBaker 03:28, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

A problem is that the deletionists made this {{trivia}} tag and it would be silly for the inclusionists to have a tag that says that the section should stay. Thus, the impression is given that the deletionists form a majority. Maybe if there is such a section that has gotten out of hand, there should be an alternative that says "Trivia sections are meant for information that is side-ways related to the article. Before adding info here, please first check if it shouldn't go into another section of this or another article." Or something along those lines. Of course everything in Wikipedia should be true, however trivial it is. (And vice versa - if it's true it should be in Wikipedia. Somewhere.) Maybe the disputed info there or elsewhere in the article should go to a separate 'fact sheet', as I proposed on my user page. However, that is not entirely the same thing, so this suggestion is only is-ways related, so is it a trivium? Ah, good, I've already added the tag. :)

Steve, what you did is also something I suggest on my user page - if an article or section becomes too long, just make a separate article out of it and leave the main entries in the main article, with a link to the long list at the top - that's the standard way Wikipedia works, something I doubt many people will disagree with. If even that list becomes too long, it could be split into even more separate sub-articles. However, I agree that your mini example is rather over the top. But it is also quite exceptional - I've never encountered something as extreme as that. DirkvdM 07:03, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and regarding the original question, it already follows from the above that I disagree with splitting off specific sorts of info from Wikipedia. Everything should stay here. I'd also like to see other wikiprojects integrated into Wikipedia. Such as Wiktionary. If the title of an article is a dictionary word, then the meaning should be given in the article. That will in most cases be a very short section, so it's silly to make what is basically a stub for that. And on a different site even. DirkvdM 07:08, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

My only comment on "if it's true it should be in Wikipedia. Somewhere" is that it's undeniably true that any notable person you care to name goes to the toilet, has pimples on their backside, and sometimes has bad breath. That's an extreme example, obviously, but extreme examples have their uses. The purpose of this one is that it demonstrates that a line has to be drawn somewhere between trivial and non-trivial true information. The only question is, where? -- JackofOz 09:25, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I actually agree with both Dirkvdm and JackofOz here - but drawing that line in the sand is tough.

In the end, I like the rule we use in the WikiProject:Cars group - which is to say that in 'trivia' lists of "Movies this car has appeared in" or "Famous owners of this car" you should restrict yourself to movies (or owners) who had an influence on the history, fate or development of the car. This sharply limits the extent to which these lists can grow - and also makes it more likely that the section will be written in more-acceptable prose style.

But even so, I note with growing horror that the Mini#Exotic Minis and celebrities section of "my" featured article (yes, I know it's not "my" article - but I did 95% of the grunt work to push it from a stub to an FA) has started to grow unreferenced junk in it again and will soon have to be pruned. So now we have: Niki Lauda, Enzo Ferrari and Steve McQueen all owned (and regularly drove) Mini Coopers. Does it matter that Steve McQueen owned a Mini? It's perhaps relevent to the Steve McQueen article - but did his ownership of the car have any measurable effect on the brand? I very much doubt it - and we certainly don't have any references to that effect. Are we really sure he regularly drove his Mini? I very much doubt we know THAT for sure - with references.

I happen to know that Enzo Ferrari discussed the car at length with it's designer - and maybe that is worthy of mention. That the designer of some of the most elegant high performance cars in the world loved this tiny little $1000 family car to the degree that he bought one says something pretty significant about the car. I think I can even dig up a reference in my Mini book collection.

But this stuff is a major pain for an article maintainer to keep up with. Anyone who happens to read the article and who has some vague recollection will go and tack it onto the end of the trivia section - and those things are just NEVER properly fact-checked or referenced. They are more likely to be incorrect than any other kind of information we have here. So all in all, I don't want that kind of cruft in my article unless it comes pre-fact-checked.

Pushing trivia sections out into other articles is a way to deal with that - the resulting 'trivia' article can then be appropriately tagged and attacked by the deletionists without greatly upsetting the work of serious editors who are trying to turn out quality articles. "List of Trivia relating to 'X'." articles could then stand or fall on their own merits. No doubt people reading that article can be given a blanket "This is a trivia article and you should treat unreferenced items with deep suspicion" - without dragging down the tone of an otherwise great article.

The trivia-section problem is a serious one - something needs to be done about it.

SteveBaker 13:23, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Two little points. "Having sourced lists of errors in movies, easter eggs in computer games, that kind of thing - IS relevent - and the suggestion to turn those into prose is often unhelpful." While it's generally a good idea to incorporate 'trivia' sections into the article, this doesn't necessarily mean they have to be in prose. If you have a list of information, you could make a small list incorporated into the article (or a table, or an image, etc). The problem isn't something not being prose, it's having a 'dump' section in an article where people drop random thoughts and 'facts'.

Secondly: "However, I agree that your mini example is rather over the top. But it is also quite exceptional - I've never encountered something as extreme as that." I have often suspected this is a problem; those who think others are 'deletionist' have perhaps not seen the accumalated junk that the so-called 'deletionists' have. I can assure you Dirk that such examples as Steve's Mini list are not 'quite exceptional' in the encyclopedia as a whole, although they do tend to be exceptional in the articles on art, engineering, hard science, history, etc. They are so common that they crop up (sometimes named, sometimes not) in almost every joke about or criticism of Wikipedia that I have encountered made by a member of the public who is not a regular editor. Skittle 15:58, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Jack, that sounds like a good point. Concerning the going to the toilet, I grant you that we should exclude the blatantly obvious. Concerning the pimples on the back - if someone wants to write something down, chances are that other people will want to read it - it should just go into a 'gossip' article that serious people will not read, and until then can be stowed away in the trivia section. Concerning the bad breath - the info also has to be verifiable, and how are we going to verify (source) that? Anyway, it's pov, and that does not count as fact.

Steve, your point about McQueen owning a mini illustrates my point nicely. If there were no article on McQueen yet or the editor doesn't know it, then that fact could have gone into the mini article. Until somebody else moves it. It's a nice section for "I want to put this somewhere, but don't know where, so I'll put it here." If you don't allow people to do that sort of thing or just bluntly delete it, then info that might be useful somewhere would be lost. By extension, if there is info in an article that is not relevant there, then a copy editor who doesn't know where it should go can put it in the trivia section. Which makes it very useful. Of course, my fact sheet idea might be better, but until we have that...

Lastly, I don't see why info in the trivia section should be less verified. If it isn't and you seriously doubt its correctness, then move it to the talk page, with an explanation. That's borderline deletionist, but still quite acceptable even to me. DirkvdM 18:29, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

You have a curious mental model for how Wikipedia works!

• A random fact strays into someone's head - they rush to Wikipedia and need somewhere to put this fact. They have to find somewhere to put it or the fact is somehow lost. At some subsequent time (by means unspecified) the fact is classed as TRUE (or perhaps FALSE so it is removed). Somehow a readable article emerges from this process. At any given time, many of the things said in the article are utterly false.

• My model is: Someone sets out to write or improve an article. They presumably know a lot about this subject - and between their knowledge and (hopefully) their reference books - a set of lucid, carefully laid out facts - along with the references for those facts are placed into the article. Subsequently, people fix tiny errors and flesh out areas that need it - using facts from some source that the original author(s) missed. The article gradually gets better - but throughout the process, it's always true, useful and well written.

OK - I'm probably wrong about the way you think - and my way is hopelessly idealistic. But it's abundantly clear to anyone who actively maintains high quality articles that the first model is exactly what 'Trivia' sections encourage and the second way is the only way that decent encyclopedia articles come about.

There was some skepticism about whether the Mini article is typical or not. Well, my other featured article (Mini Moke - yeah - not entirely a separate subject from the first one) was a much more deliberative work. The original article literally was just a stub - two paragraphs and a crappy photo. I bought the only four books on the planet ever written about this funny little car/jeep/dune-buggy thing (one of which is a children's story!) - I crawled all over an actual Mini Moke owned by a friend of mine and got photocopies of a rare owners manual from the UK owner's club. People from Australia and NewZealand owner clubs sent me photos. The article was written, perfectly referenced (little blue numbers at the end of every single paragraph) - and unsurprisingly, it pretty much sailed through the featured article process...and goddamit - someone added a bunch of annoying unsourced 'factoids' to it!

You can see the things I didn't write - they stick out a MILE: "In the Dick Francis mystery Smokescreen, a crew shooting a film in South Africa travels in a Mini Moke. The Jimmy Buffett song 'Autour De Rocher', from the album Far Side Of The World, also mentions the Mini Moke. The Traffic song 'Berkshire Poppies,' from the album Mr. Fantasy (US release: Heaven Is In Your Mind) also mentions the Mini Moke. Mokes were also used in the reality TV series The Amazing Race: All-Stars. Teams were to locate one and drive the Mini Moke to the pit stop."...I mean - who the heck cares?! Dick Francis used the name of the car twice in a cheesey mystery book written 35 years ago. The name of the car is briefly mentioned in a bunch of albums that nobody has ever heard of and appeared for 30 seconds in one episode of some reality TV show? How can any of us confirm those facts - and why would we ever bother? Aaaarrggghhhh!!!

The best place for those half-baked unreferenced and not 100% relevent thoughts is on the articles "Talk:" page. If you have a 'fact' - but no proof - then go to the talk page and write "I recall that XXX is true - does anyone have a reference for that?" - the possibility that this is true is recorded for posterity - but it hasn't been put up as "THE TRUTH" where Wikipedia's audience will see it.

SteveBaker 00:39, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Like I said, if someone bothers to write it down, some other people are likely to want to read it. Putting it on the talk page first if there is no source makes sense, and I also indicated that (just the other way around - ok, the wrong way around :) ). But if it's true and doesn't fit in the main story, then a trivia section is a logical place. Until that gets too big, in which case trivia can be grouped together in a subsection. In your example in an article named 'Mini Moke in the media', which is then linked to in the 'see also' section. Unless enough of these 'trivia' are important enough to remain in the main article under a subsection, at the top of which there is a link to the main 'mini moke in the media' article. Makes perfect sense to me. DirkvdM 17:18, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Does anybody object to moving or duplicating this discussion on one of the Village Pumps and continuing it there? That’s seems like a more appropriate and useful place to me. --S.dedalus 05:07, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Here is a wikiproject proposal for trivia and a fresh look at trivia policy by the admins. Support the wikiproject proposal. Add your name to the list here: [wiki project proposal for wikitrivia] Please send this link to other users that you feel would be interested. Thanks Ozmaweezer 14:11, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Here's an idea I had the other day.

Some people love trivia and "in popular culture" sections. They're fun to read, and they're fun to add to. (Trouble is, of course, is that they're too much fun to add to; they eventually accumulate gobs of trivial cruft that's just banal. But anyway.)

The main objection against them is that, in the eyes of people who want Wikipedia to be a serious, stolid, "official" encyclopedia, they look too frivolous. So the idea I had is, what if they were hideable, via some JavaScript magic? People who don't like them could click a "hide" button once, and never see them again. Problem solved! —Steve Summit (talk) 01:42, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good. That could be an option in the preferences. But should they disappear completely or should there always be an option to expand/show, so there is only a header, with a 'show' link next to it? Maybe that could also be an option in the preferences. But this thread is going a bit stale, so I'd say wait until it has disappeared, in case you get more pointers, and then post it at the Help Desk (is that the right place for such a suggestion?). DirkvdM 11:08, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Hair changes

I'm 25 years old and I don't use any chemicals in my hair I don't straighten my hair and I do not blow dry my hair. I have recently noticed that a lot of my hair is changing from dark brown natural color to very very coarse black hairs and I don't know if this is an aging issuse or what so if someone knows then please let me know what's going on... Thank You, Amanda P 75.67.39.27 17:44, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

We can't answer medical questions here - if this bothers you, you should see a doctor. SteveBaker 12:55, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

"communication"powerpointpresentation for seminar purpose

i need powerpoint presentation on general communication. where can i get it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.161.46.62 (talk) 18:03, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

You can use the google search key filetype: to search for specific file extensions. For instance, filetype:ppt "general communication" gives you powerpoint presentations on the internet that contain the phrase "general communication". It's probably best to ask for permission if you want to use it for a presentation of your own. risk 19:26, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

• You'd probably be better off making one of your own. If you are learning at this seminar, using someone else's presentation will come out and get you in heaps of trouble. If you're teaching, I'd be wondering why you've been asked in the first place. - Mgm|^(talk) 08:50, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Plenty of fish dating site "Compatibility Predictor"

I would like to join this dating site but when I do the compulsory quack personality test, or "Compatibility Predictor" as they describe it (which cannot be changed or retaken) it says I have "no self control". I believe I have very high self control - the exact opposite of what it says. I would imagine that someone with no self-control would be an aggressive, rude, emotional, heavy drinker. I am very polite, cool, and do not drink. I cannot bear to be described as someone with no self-control, hence I cannot join the site. The other aspects of my personality are fine.

Could anyone tell me how to fill in this 48-question test to give a more realistic result - ie that I do have excellent self control? 62.253.53.14 19:43, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Maybe your [spelling edit: he means "you're"] just in denial, or you could just make a new account and try until you get it.--Dlo2012 20:30, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

If one of the questions is "Do you wet the bed", answer "No". That might help. But more seriously, if you answered the questions honestly then either A) you have no self control or, more likely, B) the analysis of the questions is poor. If its the former, misrepresenting yourself to get a better "review" is not going to help you in the long term. If its the latter, do you really wish to be part of a site that gets it so wrong, especially since you will be using the same analysis to choose a potential partner? Rockpocket 22:46, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. If they are willing to start throwing such ambiguous terms around based on an algorithmic analysis of a small questionnaire, I doubt the psychological research behind any of it is anything to write home about. If the site drops the ball this badly at the introduction, why would their matching algorithm be any better? In fact their matching algorithm probably works off this initial misguided analysis. risk 23:37, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Short answer: just find a new dating site. --Candy-Panda 12:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

A reason for joining it, is that its free, also very large. The twenty-something owner says he employs no staff but makes $5-10 million a year from it. (Yet he still only lives in an apartment, hmmmn.)I agree they should do something about the quack test. I wonder if there's a software bug. 80.2.192.65 18:08, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I do not solemnly swear...

Ok, so if you have to be sworn in for court (after I'd read the article before about not swearing on the bible) and you are a bona fide card-carrying Satanist, what are your options? I personally wouldn't feel proper swearing on a book I'd consider false, but if I did go ahead and swear on something I didn't believe, would that still hold me libel for perjury? Why take an oath on the bible anyways and not the Constitution? Wouldn't THAT make more sense? Hmmm...65.248.93.200 22:51, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

From the Perjury article - "Perjury is the act of lying or making verifiably false statements on a material matter" - i.e. when you are giving material evidence. The taking of the oath is a procedural matter. As to what would happen if you took the oath, gave evidence and then informed the court that you swore to tell the truth on the book of a belief system you didn't personally acknowledge - I don't know. I'd save yourself the trouble and simply affirm instead. Exxolon 23:11, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Those who do not believe in swearing (and there are even Christian groups, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, who will not swear) may "affirm" instead. Corvus cornix 23:17, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Why would a Satanist even worry about this moral dilemma? Clarityfiend 02:53, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I have had to appear in court a few times. (I'm a journalist; it goes with the job.) I live in the U.S., and I carry a little pocket-sized copy of the Constitution with me. They always accept me using that. (How could they not? After all, that's what the whole legal system is based on.) — Michael J 05:27, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Of course, this very much depends on the country. You appear to live in a predominantly christian country. How is this done in, say, Indonesia? I'm sure one can use the bible there too. How is that in christian countries? Can one swear on the Koran or Torah in such countries? DirkvdM 07:16, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Religious Jews are exceptionally reluctant to take any kind of oath (even one privately between oneself and God) and the Rabbis have discouraged it for at least two millenia. In particular, swearing on the Torah would be an anathema. (Besides, you're not supposed to touch a Torah's parchment) In western courtrooms, Jews generally affirm to tell the truth. To the best of my knowledge, a Jewish religious court (Bet Din) has no true equivalent to swearing in. --Dweller 10:18, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I didn't know that, but my question was if one could if one wanted to. DirkvdM 18:37, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I checked... the Dayanim have the right to force witnesses to swear, but don't generally. --Dweller 21:07, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

The Straight Dope covered this a while ago here - [2]. Cecil knows all. Deltopia 14:30, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

That sounds like a reasonable method. Still, even if one religion is predominant in a country, it's a bit iffy for a court to first assume that a person follows that religion. Because if they don't then they are treated like an exception. But before the law, everyone should be equal. DirkvdM 18:37, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

My only direct experience of it in court was when I was in the jury pool (I didn't get chosen). We all had to "affirm" en masse that we would truthfully answer the questions put to us by the examining attorneys and the judge. This was in Los Angeles; I suppose things could be different in the Deep South or somewhere. --Trovatore 19:50, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

See ACLU_of_N.C._&_Syidah_Matteen_v._State_of_North_Carolina and similar cases Kuronue | Talk 04:10, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

October 16

Rocky Shores vs.Sandy Shores

Why are some shores rocky while others are covered in fine sand? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.55.72.254 (talk) 00:17, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Rocky shorelines are formed by weathering and erosion, while sandy shorelines are formed by deposition. Not all shorelines formed by erosion are necessarily rocky. Rocky shorelines occur only where bedrock is exposed at the surface. Typically, along rocky shorelines, soil and weathered rock are carried away by the action of currents and waves above low tide. This leaves only the underlying rock. Sea currents running along shorelines transport sediment, such as sand, from rocky shorelines and the mouths of rivers to shorelines where the sediment is deposited to form beaches. Shorelines where beaches form are typically bays enclosed by headlands or barrier islands that develop from shoals offshore of long, linear coastlines. In both cases, sand and other sediments are deposited in places where the rapidly moving water that has swept sediment from the mouths of rivers and coastal headlands slows down. When the movement of the water slows, for example along a shoal or a recessed shoreline, the sediment falls out. It is then washed up by waves and becomes part of a sandy beach. Marco polo 01:54, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Official name for sequential manual

There are a lot of pages in Wikipedia that deals with various semi-automatic/sequential manual transmissions and I am somewhat confused by them. What is the official/technical name for a sequential manual gearbox (one with a clutch and paddle shifter) such as those found on modern Ferraris? Acceptable 00:32, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

It seems like Sequential manual transmission is the correct name. However, sequential, manual, clutch, and paddles don't always go together. I think some paddles are actually connected to what I'd call an automatic transmission -- the paddles are just used to manually select gears, but there's still the usual torque converter. Others actually have a clutch, but might not have a clutch pedal, since the clutch is computer controlled.

I see your problem, though. The Sequential manual transmission article says that they are used in Ferraris. However, the Enzo Ferrari (car) article says it uses a Semi-automatic transmission. Maybe we can coax Steve Baker out of the woodwork. He seems to be the resident car expert. --Mdwyer 02:31, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Anime Movie Name

I was watching a anime film but i dont know the name,its about some guy who's like a space adventurer,at the start of the film,he shown as a baby,boy.teenager and adult,he has a female robot who falls in love with him,and then some unicorn or whatever,and finally the adventurer becomes a baby again and he is taken by the female robot now a human woman,i would like to know the name of that anime film,thank you!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lord Lutz (talk • contribs) 02:19, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

No idea but it sounds pretty trippy! 212.240.35.42 10:19, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I´ve been searching for that movie for years. Could be "Phoenix 2772 - Space Firebird", but I´m not sure and cannot find a video of that anywhere. If you have further information PLEASE contact me under soulrippa666[at]web.de THANKS! Soulrippa

Worked solutions to past O Level A Maths papers.

My A Maths ten year series doesn't have worked solutions. I can practise, but I don't know whether my working is correct. Where can I get worked solutions to past year O Level A Maths papers? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.121.36.10 (talk) 02:25, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

ESPN Bottom Line

ESPN Used to have a Bottom Line sports update at the 28th and 58th minute of every hour. What is the reasoning for changing that to the 18th minute instead of the 28th minute?

Deportation as a means of getting a free flight?

Could this work? An American overstays his 3 month tourist visa in France, hoping to get deported and out of the country for free. 63.199.241.243 08:38, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

It could work, but bear in mind that once you've been deported from a country, that will stay on your record and they may never let you back in (in the case of France, that may apply to the entire EU). You might also find you have trouble getting into the country in the first place if you don't have a return ticket. But WP:IANAL. FiggyBee 08:58, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

They might choose to lock you in jail for three months while the legal nicities are taken care of prior to your deportation. I don't think you'd like that. It's definitely not going to be a matter of you showing up at a police station, giving yourself up and walking out 10 minutes later with a plane ticket and taxi ride to the airport! SteveBaker 12:48, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

And there'd be nothing to stop them from suing you for the cost of the flight in the US courts. --Tagishsimon (talk) 12:53, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

If you get a chance to read Catch Me if You Can, the book (but not the movie) has a truly terrifying account of the protagonist's stay in a French prison. IIRC, he was sentenced to six months, wound up staying around four, and was positive that six months would have either killed him or driven him insane. Locked stone cells with no light, no sensory input, no toilets, sporadic food, filth, and vermin. While taking the autobiographical word of Frank Abagnale literally is often a bad idea, if the account in the book is even one percent true, you will want to avoid it at all costs. Deltopia 14:38, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Try it in the UK.There are ads on buses offering you flights home. Being American they will reckon you can pay so you need to destroy your passport etc. Currently there are no leaving checks so if you go through passport control with an OD visa they just wave you on. French prisons serve beer with the food so thats not too bad. UK prisons are full of drugs so six months in Wandsworth will pass in a haze. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.86.166.234 (talk) 17:43, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

If it were not already obvious, DO NOT TAKE LEGAL ADVICE FROM RANDOM PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET. They could be poorly informed, have an axe to grind, or just think it's funny to make stuff up. Skittle 23:34, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't know about France in particular but in most countries you are expected to pay for your deportation. Of course, they deport you first then give you the bill and they rarely persue ut that greatly AFAIK but legally just because you've been deported doesn't mean you got a free flight. As someone mentioned, an American (or someone else who's obviously relatively well off) is more likely to be persued for the cost. However destroying your passport is probably a very bad idea. If you don't have a passport or any evidence of being an American then there is no way in hell you're getting back into the US I suspect. The French can't deport you to a country you aren't allowed into. You may be locked up in France while they figure out what to do with you. It could be worse of course. It isn't something you'd want to try in the US, you never know where you'd end up... Also, if you're flying there in the first place you're not likely to get in unless you have a return ticket. Nil Einne 15:19, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Do not take any advice from people called Skittle. You know it makes sense. Paul —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.86.166.234 (talk) 20:05, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Well obviously! This could all be some evil scheme to prevent people from getting the many free things that come their way if they would only surrender all proof that they are a citizen of their country. Foiled again! Skittle 23:57, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

French and Spanish recommended booze allowances

In the UK we are subjected to various health groups telling us how much to drink and when and in what way. It tends to be contradictory as one day we should drink red wine the next day it should be white wine.

What are the recommendations or weekly allowances recommended by the health police of these two countries ?

Thanks.

Paul —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.86.166.234 (talk) 10:07, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

• I wouldn't take much notice.At one time,doctor's recomended smoking as relief for asthma .It changes so often and some studies are not really bias free.hotclaws 10:27, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Don't do anything to excess and you should be OK. 87.112.85.54 12:06, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think I have ever encountered a reputable group claiming that white wine is better for you than red... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.88.140.121 (talk) 12:30, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Its the cultural bias I am after. Would two wine and spirit making nations accept that what was good for their fathers is now bad for their sons ? There is an independence in their national mindsets that makes me wonder if a governemnet warning would be accepted. In the UK everybody pays lip service to these oracular statements and carries on as usual. The downside is wimp doctors will use these guides to decide if you are to have treatment or not. Paul

Wimp doctors? Reputable groups? Come on guys, give a proper answer instead of personal opinion and ditribe. If you are worried about your own personal alcohol consumption, consult a medical professional. Consult Alcoholic_beverage#Alcohol_consumption_and_health and the related links and Alcoholic_beverage#Alcohol_and_religion - although I am not aware of any 'cultural bias' regarding alcohol. It is a fact that alcohol is bad for you if you over indulge, however in moderation it is believed to be beneficial, however deciding exactly which types or amounts are beneficial is more difficult. You also have to take into account that people have different tolerances to alcohol or other maladies that may be worsed or agrivated by alcohol. It is a less than exact science.

Some wines are even named to indicate they have health benefits, e.g., Buckfast Tonic Wine. Lanfear's Bane 15:13, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

This was a simple question relating to different cultures appreciation of the risks of alcohol consumption. It seems to have gone astray. You need water to survive but too much and the chemical responses of your body fall part such as Ecstacy takers who get weird. People who drown suffer a surfeit of water. My use of wimp doctor was my own bias. I hold them in contempt. I will not apologise, its my view. Whats the shit on how much you should drink in a society where alcohol is cheap. Not like Russian or Finland or Ireland or Iceland. Spain and France. Just give me the links and I will see for myself. Thanks And kisses. Paul —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.86.166.234 (talk) 19:30, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you Lanfear's Bane, well most of it - the "Tonic Wine" wouldn't be a marketing gimmick then? Richard Avery 17:45, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

• Wincarnis had added iron to make it into a tonic--hotclaws 08:41, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

electric arc steel making process

I would like in depth information about the electric arc steel making process.

My primary interest is in:

1-the production flow especially the related to electrical power

2-the usage of electrical it takes to make a ton of steel

3-how the electrical energy is used

Flow charts and diagrams are my main focus

Thank you. timcoughlin1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Timcoughlin1 (talk • contribs) 13:53, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

We have this article Electric arc furnace which may start to answer your questions, however it doesn't currently have any flow charts (I like flow charts). DuncanHill 13:56, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

And this external link [3] looks like it could be helpful. DuncanHill 13:58, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Question 1 The electricity goes literally - in through the top - there's not much more to it unless you are interested in power control

Question 2 per tonne http://www.energysolutionscenter.org/HeatTreat/MetalsAdvisor/iron_and_steel/process_descriptions/raw_metals_preparation/steelmaking/electric_arc_furnace/electric_arc_furnace_energy_consumption.htm

here's one sort of diagram http://www.uksteel.org.uk/diag1.htm

Electric arc is probably of interest. Question 3 the electricity is used to make an arc Electric arc is probably of interest. 87.102.12.235 15:06, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Diagram http://www.ec.gc.ca/nopp/docs/cp/1mm8/en/images/f2_1.jpg from http://www.ec.gc.ca/nopp/docs/cp/1mm8/en/c2.cfm

You can find many more diagrams (and pictures) using an image search like this http://images.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&q=electric%20arc%20furnace&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi87.102.12.235 15:10, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Playstation3

Can anyone tell me any good games that are out on the ps3 i already have resistance:fall of man and Heavnly sword but i am not 2 sure which game 2 buy nxt as i can only afford 1 untill i get paid.......i am a big gta fan and like games such as medal of honour and need 4 speed but i was hopeing people would have sum suggestions of games that are not such big titles but are still good thanx —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.144.161.223 (talk) 15:20, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Do not request regulated professional advice. No but seriously, have a look at Ps3#Games, it really depends what you like. Everyones opinion as to what is good varies. I mean I bet there are people out there who liked Star Wars: Force Commander living untaged and unmonitored amidst the general population. They could be living next door to you, or just around the corner. And that's just wrong. Lanfear's Bane 15:41, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

ninja gaiden sigma —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dlo2012 (talk • contribs) 16:23, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I imagine Genji: Days of the Blade is ok-or maybe not have a look at some reviews anyway, oblivion is enjoyable87.102.12.235 17:37, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

There's the tom clancy games - which are a safe bet eg Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter.. some good ones in the pipeline as always87.102.12.235 17:41, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Sodas

Have there been attempts at making milk and chocolate milk sodas? :) Thanks! 81.93.102.185 15:27, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

The Google indicates - [4] - yes. If you have a SodaStream you can carbonate most liquids (only) water (apparently - I have now learned) - fizzy hot coffee anyone? A nice big mug of fizzy Bovril?. I am not sure fizzy milk would be a commercial success; now blue milk, that's a different story - I can't get enough of it. Lanfear's Bane 15:32, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

No no no no no! If you have a Soda Stream, you're only supposed to carbonate water. Anything else is liable to get yucky, as the component that dips into the liquid is basically uncleanable. You can flavour the water, but only water should be carbonated. However, I believe there is something in America called Egg cream or something like that, which involves a fizzy drink and milk and chocolate syrup. In addition, a few years ago in the UK you used to be able to buy "Freekee Soda" which was a sort of fruity fizzy milk drink. My younger brothers loved it, I thought it was a rather unpleasant, nauseating experience. It is no longer available as far as I know. <ec> Skittle 15:39, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I said you 'can', not that you should... According to the Sodasteam article apparently there was a Milkstream as well specifically for milk... however this just frothed the milk according to the article. (I never owned a Sodastream, I didn't realise they were so delicate.) Also don't forget Creamola Foam. Lanfear's Bane 15:46, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I gather a Milkstream was just a milkshake maker really, or so I've been told. Creamola Foam? Intriguing... Skittle 16:52, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Yoo-hoo is still around but is uncarbonated. Canfield's Diet Chocolate Fudge is apparently dairy free. Maybe combine the two. Rmhermen 16:15, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I recall Canfield's. Man, that was some naaaasty stuff. There are reports of a carbonated milk product called e-Moo. Everything2 even has a recipe for making it yourself. The product is apparently terribly gross, and the process is somewhat dangerous (exploding bottles, anyone?), but I have to admit that I'm ready to give it a try... --Mdwyer 20:48, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

You could try adding some carbonated drink to a chocolate flavoured liqueur, on the lines of making a snowball with advocaat and soda. It'll be different from a milkshake, though.SaundersW 21:27, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

In Australia there is a popular drink called a "spider", which involves putting a scoop of ice cream into a fizzy drink (such as lemonade) - the Wikipedia article for this beverage may be found at the American name for it: ice cream soda. The popularity of this type of drink here is enough that Coca-cola produced a limited edition "Fanta Spider" a couple of years back, here is a website which reviews the drink. Thylacoleo 01:09, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Wow, I didn't know that. I haven't heard that term "spider" used for years. Maybe I'm out of the loop. -- JackofOz 07:13, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I have heard a spider called a float... ha, we have an article on root beer float. If you change the drink you substitute the drink used for the root beer prefix, e.g., coke float. Article mentions spiders too. Lanfear's Bane 09:22, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

You could try adding milkpowder to the water after it's been carbonated Nil Einne 15:28, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Series 22 Study Material (SEC)

Help Needed with getting licensed with the SEC, via the Series 22 Study material. There is not enough people taking this type of test as compared to other securities tests so the examination facilities don't put money into the 22 exam because it's not worth their time and effort. This makes it hard to find material to study the 22. I have some material and have already taken the test once and failed. I need more material via CD,DVD...ect. Is there anyone out there who can help me???? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pittpat1 (talk • contribs) 16:13, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Vincent Clarkson

What prison was Vincent Clarkson in with Luis Lopez-Fitzgerald when the Lopez-Fitzgerald family arrived? Ericthebrainiac 16:56, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

"Acme & Co"

Why did this fictitous company name figure so often in American movies, especially in the '50s and 60's?--88.111.37.134 21:05, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

According to Acme Corporation (which is specifically about the Looney Tunes use of the name), the name was fairly common because the "Ac" puts a company at the top of phone listings. The word indicates the best of something, which also makes it a good generic company name. Check out Acme for a bunch of real companies using the name. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 22:06, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

What a fantastic resource! Thanks--88.111.37.134 06:52, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

It means "climax" in French. --Masamage ♫ 06:58, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I'll bet Wile E. Coyote didn't know that. -- JackofOz 07:11, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Given the existence of Pepé Le Pew from the same gang of cartoonists, I'll bet Wile did know about that!

Atlant 12:48, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't recall any evidence that Pepé spoke French, though. :P —Tamfang 21:47, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Read the second sentence of our article, nést pa? He may have spoken French like I speak French, but 'e did!

Atlant 12:46, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Growing up, I remember older folks in their dialect pronouncing it as a three-syllable word, as in, "I'm going to go shopping at the 'Ack-a-mee'" — Michael J 00:04, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Acme (Greek: ακμή, the peak, zenith, prime). —Preceding unsigned comment added by SaundersW (talk • contribs) 09:24, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Most toxic toxin

By mass and by volume, what is the most toxic poison/toxin in terms of its ability to kill a person. Thanks. Acceptable 22:17, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

LD50 has a list of a few selected toxicities. Botulinum toxin is the most toxic proteins, and one of the most toxic substances generally. Ricin is in the same neighborhood. Tetrodotoxin ditto. --24.147.86.187 22:43, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

The most toxic (life threatening) toxin I know of is lead. It just has to be applied to the interior of the brain: for maximum effect, preferably at high velocity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.65.125 (talk) 23:56, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

That's not the lead itself so much as the delivery. I think warm butter would kill a person just as fast if you managed to punch it through their brain at high velocity. --Masamage ♫ 00:42, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Lead – even delivered as a bullet to the brain – is small potatoes. Per the discussion on botulinum toxin below, there are potent neurotoxins far more deadly than lead. Other nasties include the tetanus toxin (tetanospasmin), the shiga toxins, conotoxins, nerve agents like VX (nerve agent and ricin...the list goes on. You wouldn't even notice a few micrograms of lead, but the same amount of any of these toxins will kill you immediately. (For reference, a .22 rifle bullet weighs in somewhere between two and four grams—some tens or hundreds of thousands of times the lethal mass of any of the toxins I've listed.) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:07, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

The page on Botulinum toxin gives the median lethal dosage for it, but what is the fatal dosage for it? How much is needed to kill an average human being? Acceptable 01:42, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

The median lethal dosage (LD50) is the average fatal dose. It's the amount that would be enough to kill half the people who took that much. 1 ng/kg means that, for an everage person who weighed, say, 70 kg, 70 ng (nanograms) would be all that would be needed to kill them. However, half of all people weighing 70 kg would survive this dose (although there could be other side-effects). 79.65.86.14 08:19, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Weren't we recently offered an existence proof that Polonium-210 rates right on up there?

Atlant 12:50, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

The median is not the same as the average, but you'll have to look for original studies if you want to know the latter more precisely.

FYI, ²¹⁰Po has got a specific activity of 166 kBq/ng, specific radiation power of 144 nW/ng, specific equivalent dose of 2.88*10^-6 kg Sv/s/ng. That means that with 1 ng/kg ²¹⁰Po, you need about 4 days to accumulate even 1 Sv equivalence dose. Since in typical LD₅₀ experiments, the animals have to die within short time (I think usually 24 or 48 hours) to be counted as dead, you would need a higher dose than that, maybe about 50 Sv according to Wikipedia's article on radiation poisoning, within 48 hours. That would mean that the lethal dose, measured the same way as with botulism toxin, is probably about 100 ng/kg. Of course, you'll likely die with lower doses, but it needs a longer time.

Icek 13:55, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

"The median is not the same as the average" depends on which country you're in... In Britain, the usual averages taught to students up to GCSE statistics (and the usual ones to be found in statistics) are the (arithmetic) mean, the median and the mode. They are all called averages, and there are others taught later. I gather in America it is usual to call the mean 'the average', but I thought for what Acceptable was asking, median was really what was wanted. Also, I don't know which usage is common in Australia (which is, I gather, where Acceptable is), so maybe further disambiguation should have been given? Ah well. Skittle 14:07, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Australian usage is mean, mode and median are all averages, but in general conversation "average" means mean. --Psud 12:17, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Isn't Plutonium the correct answer? Rhinoracer 10:06, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

No. Think again after reading my previous comment and the relevant Wikipedia articles. Icek 12:53, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Amazingly, though, the myth of plutonium as "the most toxic substance on earth" is a persistent one, even among the educated, and as a meme it seems to grip people hard and not let go. It's not good for you, and can be dangerous to handle, but it is not very toxic when compared to a lot of other things, and is comparatively stable (not too radioactive) compared to many, many other elements. It is not a good way to poison someone, which is a good short-hand for thinking about what toxicity means. --24.147.86.187 14:22, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

October 17

buying miles on Ebay -- the secret to cheap flights?

I saw this auction for Delta skymiles--just an example, my question isn't specific to skymiles--and I realized that buying miles is apparently the cheapest way to travel. Anyone have experience getting a ticket through miles bought on Ebay? What would be some forseeable problems if I tried to buy 80,000 miles from multiple auctions and redeemed them for a cheap ticket to Africa?

Thanks.

128.54.77.38 00:31, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

From the seller's phrasing I wonder if it's in fact illegal to sell miles? He refers to what he's selling as "an email", with the 30,000 miles thrown in as a "free gift". So that might be a complication, or else maybe his recasting of the situation is actually legal. I have no idea. --Masamage ♫ 00:36, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I doubt it's illegal - but I bet it's contrary to eBay's policies. If that's the case then you have zero buyer-protection in the event that the promised air-miles don't appear. SteveBaker 00:46, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I took a look at the listing and I think it's highly dubious. Ask yourself: Why is he so carefully telling you that ALL you are buying is an utterly worthless email - with this large and valuable "free gift"? That just screams "SCAM!". I bet that when the PIN number that he sends you doesn't work, he can duck out of his responsibilities by pointing out that you got your email as promised and the 'free gift' is probably not covered by PayPal/eBay refunds anyway. He claims "I have excellent feedback and been a member of Ebay for several yrs!!!"...well, no. That's a lie. Check his feedback - he's sold exactly two things on eBay - ever (an iPhone and a David Yurman bracelet) and he's only been a member for 1 year and 10 months. WORST OF ALL: One other listing for Delta Skymiles said "Please note Delta charges a fee for transferring miles - NOT included in this auction."...so this may well be nothing like as good a deal as you think! How much is this transfer going to cost? Why didn't this seller warn you about that? I definitely wouldn't risk this a couple of hundred bucks on this kind of thing. SteveBaker 01:17, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Note that Delta's SkyMiles Rules & Conditions ([5]) specifically bars the sale or barter of mileage:

"The sale or barter of mileage credit, vouchers, Award Certificates, or Award Tickets by SkyMiles members is prohibited. Delta will terminate or deduct mileage from the account of any member who violates this rule. Award Certificates or Tickets obtained through prohibited sale or barter transactions are VOID, invalid for travel, and will be confiscated. Persons trying to use such tickets will not be permitted to travel unless they purchase a ticket from Delta at the applicable fare."

I would expect other reward-mile-type programs would have similar rules, but you should check the specific rules of each program to be sure. While it's not illegal for him to sell (or for you to buy) the miles, Delta is apt not to let redeem them. I strongly suspect the "I'm buying an email and getting the miles as as a free gift" gambit won't fool anyone, should Delta actually suspect something fishy is going on. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 01:15, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Aha! That explains why the SkyMiles are "A Free Gift" - that gets him out of the "sale or barter" clause. SteveBaker 01:20, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Plane or Train?

I travel between New York City and Washington DC quite often.(about once or twice per month) I almost always fly from Newark Airport to got there. Recently however, it has gotten to be very frustrating because I have to get there at least an hour early, and sometimes the plane is delayed. I was just wondering, is it better to take the Acela train? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.172.221.158 (talk) 00:43, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I couldn't tell you what's right in your situation, since I don't know how far you are/ how far you are going from the train/airport staions, and I don't know what kind of luggage you take. I can tell you that our article on the Acela Express notes that typical transit time between DC and NYC is 2 hours, 48 minutes. --Ybbor^Talk 01:25, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Of course, trains can be delayed too, but from what I read on Usenet, the Acela has a decent reputation, and when I've used it myself it's been on time or only mildly late. It's also a lot more comfortable than plane seats nowadays. Many people prefer to take the regional trains, which are not that much slower and noticeably cheaper, but that's a personal choice. Note that if you use Newark Airport because your starting point is nearer Newark than Manhattan, you can save some time by boarding the Acela at the Penn Station in Newark instead of the one in New York. --Anonymous, 02:01 UTC, October 17, 2007.

• The Wall Street Journal recommends Amtrak, pointing out that it has very good on-time numbers, it's safer, and it's faster. As a result of these things, it's also popular -- more people ride Amtrak from DC to New York than fly on all airlines combined! And if you're into saving the environment, the all-electric Acela line produces a tiny fraction of the greenhouse gases that an airplane flight does. --M@rēino 21:50, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Tylenol question

Per Tylenol, it says that children have a higher tolerance of acetaminophen than adults because of their larger liver and kidney to body size ratio. However, on Tylenol packages, the maximum recommended adult dosage is frequently higher than that for children. Is the packaging wrong?

Thanks. Acceptable 02:02, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Best to put questions in separate postings when they aren't much related. I edited your question into two parts.

For many drugs the correct dose should be calibrated according to the patient's body weight -- or some other measure of size, depending on the drug. Since children are smaller than adults, they have a lower recommended dose. For further detail on this you should consult a doctor or pharmacist, of course, not the reference desk. --Anonymous, 09:52 UTC, October 17.

Heroin/morphine question

Secondly, on a completely different note, how does a heroin/morphine high feel like exactly? I don't ever plan on trying, so I'll never have the experiential knowledge of it, but I'm still curious. I've heard of it being described as "...a 5-hour long orgasm." Is this accurate?

Thanks. Acceptable 02:02, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Isaac Asimov was given morphine for a kidney stone attack in 1950, and wrote about it in his autobiography In Memory Yet Green (chapter 49, section 24):

There they gave me a hefty shot of morphine, and in a little while the pain left. More than the pain left. All my troubles, all my concerns, all my worries left. I lay there, I remember, facing the wall, in complete peace. It wasn't euphoria; it was better than euphoria; it was quiet, calm nirvana. I didn't feel bored. I didn't have to think. I just lay there at rest. Neither before nor since have I ever felt so free of all the endless indignities of life.

Gertrude sat at the bedside and I, with my back to her, felt her holding my hand. I don't know how much time passed, but a nurse came in and asked Gertrude if she would care to eat and assured her I would be all right. Gertrude left. I did not know this at the time; Gertrude told me of it afterward. All I know was that after a while, I was conscious that Gertrude was not holding my hand. I wondered if she were still there, but it seemed too much trouble to turn around. I felt only the smallest, most distant pang of regret at the thought that she might not be there, and then I left that go, too.

The memory of that one time under morphine convinces me that I will have to be under equivalent pain before I ever accept another shot.

--Anonymous, 10:13 UTC, October 17, 2007.

It starts off with energy, clear thought, ability to do things and be hard working. As the world gets organised you slow down and relax. Deeply. You observe. then the observation becomes yourself and all is right. Then you may sleep. Took it once and it was so good: Never again. Serious. Never take something like that twice. Paul —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.86.166.234 (talk) 11:14, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I've had morphine before when my appendix was removed and had a subsequent infection. I noticed nothing but a odd "rush" (but not really pleasurable at all) sort of reaction after it was injected, and maybe a tendency to want to sleep more (this could also have been an effect of sitting in the bed all day though). It worked pretty well for the pain, though. It might be a subjective opioid receptor sort of deal, I've also taken hydrocodone and had no effect that would make me think I took anything other than really strong ibuprofen. -Wooty [Woot?] [Spam! Spam! Wonderful spam!] 12:16, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

There are probably different levels. If you're my grandma, morphine feels like a medical emergency; some people are really intensely allergic to it. --Masamage ♫ 14:22, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

When I had morphine, it was the middle of the night and I'd been unable to sleep due to frequent and intense intenstinal pain. I remember getting the shot, then the pain was utterly gone. I had periods where I must have been asleep interspersed with periods of semi-lucidity; I remember suddanly being aware that I'd not been asleep, but had been staring at the wall for the past period of time. Time, in fact, pretty much lost meaning - I had no way of telling if it'd been 20 minutes or 2 hours. I have no idea how long I was in the hospital, except that it was almost dawn when I got out. My boyfriend (who drove me there, I couldn't drive doubled over in pain) says that I didn't sleep any longer than about 15, 20 minutes or so at a time, so that's probably a decent estimate of how long the stretches were. It wasn't pleasureable and nothing like an orgasm - it's kind of like how, when you have REALLY good sex, after you orgasm, you kinda don't want to move much. I tend to fall asleep post-orgasm, and I tended to fall asleep for short bits of time on morphine, so that's another similarity.

What 81.86 seems to be describing, on the other hand, is heroin, which is usually taken to get a high rather than to numb pain. I suspect the concentrations, the method of production, et cetera differ vastly to produce a different effect. But yeah, Morphine isn't worth it as recreation unless you're very stressed and in a lot of pain and just want to relax for a few hours. And even in that case, pot's probably easier to get and I suspect it works just as well (I have lung issues so I've never smoked anything, but I've seen others on pot and they seem much more relaxed). Kuronue | Talk 04:22, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

• I've taken heroin for pleasure and been given morphine for pain.While there is some similarity in the feelings,they are not quite alike.How much of the difference with the morphine was due to the relief at being out of excruciating pain I don't know.Hitting up heroin was like a quiet orgasm,a rush of pure pleasure followed by a golden glow that made you feel invincible.Except ,it was damn hard to get out of your seat to do anything(known as "gouching out")It was something I liked better than almost anything else in the world.On heroin nothing else mattered.The rush is both a physical pleasure and a mental one. I'd substituted all my problems into just one;getting the next fix..Stopping being an addict was the most horrible experience ever.Please,don't try it.--hotclaws 10:05, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I've never taken any drugs or been high, and I'm curious- how exactly is that a horrible experience? You're in total bliss when you're high, and yeah life sucks when you're not but life sucks anyway. Why do people talk so ominously and threateningly about past drug addictions? --ffroth 04:16, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

You've never consumed alcohol or coffee/tea? Or any medicinal drugs? Problem is that the term is often used only for illegal drugs, as if that somehow makes them inherently different. To answer your question, it depends very much on which drug and how much and for how long. Without specifying that, you can't get a good concise answer. DirkvdM 11:10, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Opiates (opium, heroin, morphine, methadone - actually I should say opioids) are an antidote to pain and, interestingly, the reverse is also true. If someone has taken an overdose, the antidote is pain. Slap them on the skin with the open hand - that will cause pain but not (serious) injury. So if you take it when you're in pain, the pain will absorb part of it. For medical purposes, there's no need to administer more than that. What the ones who had it administered in hospital said here is probably some side-effect. In 1950, when Asimov got his dose, the dosage was probably less precise, more like 'at least enough', which comes down to an 'overdose' (I mean in terms of what is medically required, not in the lethal sense). I believe that opiates directly affect the (the?) pleasure centre in the brain, so it makes sense that it feels good. Also note that the effect of alcohol depends on the quantity (an upper in low quantities and a downer in higher quantities) and maybe something like that is also the case for opiates. And also, the effect of a drug can depend on the mood. Although I can imagine that for a large dose of an opiate that will no longer be a factor. DirkvdM 17:45, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Most Powerful Handgun

Hey All,

Which commercially avaliable handgun would be the most powerful in terms of stopping power. The .44 Magnum as suggested in the film "Dirty Harry" is suggested, however wikipedia claims in the article that it is not, Does anyone have any ideas? Also comparitively could a gun with a lower stopping power loaded with a .50 Action Express for exmaple have more stopping power than say a model with a higher stopping power loaded with a weaker kind of bullet

Cheers Catman503 02:06, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

The .50 AE Magnum is generally considered the most powerful handgun cartridge, although more obscure, larger and potentially more powerful rounds (in terms of stopping power) exists-such as the Nitro Express. A hollowpoint would add to the stopping power when fired at an unarmoured target, as the hollowpoint fragments upon impact, creating a much more painful experience for the recipient. For the second part, I don't think guns have any rated stopping power, but instead, stopping power is an unofficial measurement of a bullet. Acceptable 02:13, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Looks like .500 S&W Magnum although a handgun which might have existed (Triple Action Thunder) that fired a .50 BMG machine gun round. Rmhermen 02:55, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I saw a video on youtube of a custom handgun that fired a .50 BMG. Some guy volunteered to test it out, aimed, and when it fired it knocked him back and the gun flew out of his hand. -Wooty [Woot?] [Spam! Spam! Wonderful spam!] 12:07, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

"Stopping power" is not an exact science. Muzzle energy is a function of both the round and the gun (larger charge = more energy, longer barrel = more energy). A handgun with a full-length barrel will do much more damage with the same ammunition that a handgun with a short barrel. FiggyBee 05:07, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Ah i see, Well concerning the various models of handguns what would be the most powerful in terms of pentration and velocity? 203.173.131.12 02:23, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

That would be a matter for endless debate. My problems in trying to answer this question are several. I suppose that by "handgun" you mean "gun like you see people fire with one hand on TV", but there lots of kinds. The most "powerful" in foot-pounds is going to be a single-shot chambered for a large rifle cartridge, like the .460 Weatherby or the 50-caliber machine gun round, but these will not have the highest velocity. A small round propelled by a large charge will have the highest velocity, like a varmint round. As for penetration, that will depend to a great extent on the bullet. A bullet can be designed to mushroom or fragment on impact, or go right through the target like it wasn't even there. If you want "stopping power", you don't want penetration, necessarily; you want all the energy in the bullet to be delivered to the target, and that only happens if the bullet comes to rest within it.

Of course, all the talk about "stopping power" of a particular round or weapon is moot. Shot placement is by far the most important factor in that, so that accuracy is really the most important factor, and that depends on the combination of shooter and weapon. Annie Oakley, arguably the best shot ever, would probably not have done so well shooting a .44 Magnum, but she could choose which eye to shoot you in at 100 yards with her gun. --Milkbreath 11:33, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I know nothing about weapons but... what about the IMI Desert Eagle? --Taraborn 15:54, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

You need to understand the concept of a cartridge. The model of gun doesn't matter (much= barrel length can influence velocity)- it's the specification for the ammo it uses that determines how powerful it is. Friday (talk) 16:19, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Given what's said above, this means that all the various assault rifles chambered for the standard 5.56mm NATO round are pretty much similar in terms of power and behavior right? There are difference in barrel, bolt and etc.. but at the end, it mainly the bullet itself that places the emphasis right? Acceptable 21:34, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Right. NATO ball doesn't much care what weapon it's coming out of in terms of "power", though a longer barrel will give more velocity, up to a limit (and greater accuracy, as a rule and all else being equal). I'm sure there is an optimum twist, but I'm too lazy to look it up. A gas-operated rifle will take a little zing out of the round compared to a bolt-action, but not enough to make an important difference. (When you say "bullet", I'm guessing you mean "cartridge". The bullet is the thing that flies downrange.) It's the weight of the bullet (and to a much lesser extent its shape), the amount of propellant, and the time the propellant has to work that dictate what you might call "power", regardless of the weapon, for the most part. There are relatively minor factors like the loss you get between the cylinder and barrel in a revolver. --Milkbreath 23:57, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

capital punishment

why pen is broken on capital punishment —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.163.48.206 (talk) 07:51, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry? can you clarify the question. Richard Avery 07:58, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Just a guess, but maybe 122 is asking about a practice I've seen in movies, where upon signing a document with a quill one smashes the tip into the parchment destroying the nib. I always imagined it was a sort of superstitious act; that the pen had become an instrument of some momentous force and should not be used again trivially. In the case of a death warrant, this would be doubly true. The question suggests that this is still done with modern pens. I wonder. --Milkbreath 10:33, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

[6] shows it is still carried out in India, although this will soon be replaced - "Time is not far when, while pronouncing a death sentence, a Judge in India will click a computer mouse instead of breaking the nib of a pen" - from Pronouncing verdict online likely soon —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nanonic (talk • contribs) 18:47, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Human nature being what it is, I expect they'll take to smashing the mouse. Mice are cheap. Xn4 13:50, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I can't remember what it's called, but there is a phenomenon in anthropology where in certain societies the object that caused death or injury has to be punished. The pen used to sign a death warrent or sentence of death has killed a person, so could be seen as dangerous. DuncanHill 12:58, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

interesting. I would say that the pen is a manifestation of the bureaucracy that killed the victim, and as being a possession of the signer, the signer punishes himself and the society he serves by proxy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.217.195.89 (talk) 16:17, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I think Duncan's thinking of Deodand. Lisiate 01:49, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Feeling of waves

Why is it that whenever I lie in bed after going on a boat or swimming at the beach that day, I can faintly feel the rocking of waves as if I'm still in the water or on the boat? --Candy-Panda 07:55, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

The common name for it is sea legs. New Scientist's Last Word printed a Q&A about it which you can find here. Mal de debarquement is a much rarer but far more serious condition. — Matt Eason ^{(Talk &#149; Contribs)} 09:55, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Over time, your brain adapts to most forms of continuous stimulus, whether it is sound, smell, motion, or what-have-you. When that stimulus is suddenly removed, you often perceive the opposite stimulus (so if you've been oscillating around on waves all day, when the oscillation stops, you perceive the anti-phase oscillation that your brain has been using to cancel the real oscillation).

I once got a very dramatic demonstration of this when I rode the entire way down on the Mount Washington Cog Railway seated on the tailgate of the train. After spending those forty minutes puttering down the mountain at five miles per hour watching the scenery go backwards by me, when the train finally stopped, I had the overwhelming sensation that we were progressing back up the mountain at that same snail's pace.

Atlant 12:57, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

You can practice this at home in your own living room. Spin around on the spot just moving just your feet (stretching arms out optional) then suddenly stop. The room will continue to spin and you will feel dizzy. That's the miracle of science. :P Lanfear's Bane 15:15, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I dunno - stretching your arms out isn't very scientific - it's just a small step from that to you yelling "Wwwwweeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!" while you are doing it - and then we all have to edge slowly towards the door, whistling tunelessly as we go. SteveBaker 20:21, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

A number of researchers, starting with one G.M. Stratton in 1896, have done experiments where subjects wore devices that reversed their vision -- and this, too, proves to be something that people can adapt to, at least partially. And again, there is a reverse adaptation period when returning to normal vision. Here's a short note giving a reference to Stratton's paper and some later ones. Here's a paper (in PDF) that discusses what goes on in the brain when that happens. --Anonymous, 23:53 UTC, October 17, 2007.

• On a perhaps-related note, I recently read that an anti-IED scheme where a soldier in a trailing vehicle controls a drone vehicle at the front of the convoy through some kind of remote control was problematic in that the differing inputs that his/her eyes and inner ear were receiving led to serious nausea. --Sean 00:31, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Let's make it more scientific then, write down the method and apparatus and you can be the control. I am sure we can get funding for this, or white coats at the least. The Diverse Effects of 'Sticking out your arms and yelling Wee!' in relation to Human Centrifugal Action. Lanfear's Bane 09:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I feel an Ig Nobel Prize headed our way for sure!

In the meantime, with regard to the anti-IED device driver, yes, humans fare quite badly when their visual stimulus is not well-synchronized with their inner ear stimulus. This is the principal cause of sea-sickness and explains why you often feel lousy in your cabin (where you feel the boat shifting but can't see any obvious effect) and feel better out on deck (where the horizon shifts in synchronism with what your inner ear is telling you).

Atlant 12:43, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh - well if there are going to be white coats...you hadn't mentioned white coats...then that's an ENTIRELY different matter. Any activity whatever that can be performed while wearing a nice crisp white lab coat is OBVIOUSLY science. (White coats that are dirty, full of acid burns and scorch marks with suspiciously large amounts of blood splatter don't count - then you are straying suspiciously close to the realms of "mad science" - which is another ENTIRELY different matter.) SteveBaker 19:18, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Strife

I have been playing some old games recently, like Strife, but they do not run smoothly on my pc, although I have plenty ram, how do i alocate more ram to games? thanks12.191.136.3 11:01, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

The problem is not RAM - you have plenty to run and old game. The problem is the operating system. I think you will have more help on the computer reference desk. Jon513 12:26, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Probably you should download something called 'ZDoom' which has an updated version of Strife that should take good advantage of modern graphics hardware. SteveBaker 14:41, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

You might also like DOSBox. --Mdwyer 17:33, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

LSD: Depletes what from my system?

What nutrients do I need the day after taking LSD? Are there any vitamins or supplements that the body craves after a trip? 24.249.210.2 16:45, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Nothing, from reading I've done on LSD in the last few minutes on the web. What makes you think that LSD depletes anything from your system? --Tagishsimon (talk) 17:34, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

"Food" is a good one - the stress of hallucinating may cause you to use for energy than you usually do..

Isn't this medical advice?87.102.123.108 17:37, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Try some reality. I used to drink heavily after LSD as I tried to readjust to the world. This is not medical advice so shove your moaning. Paul —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.86.166.234 (talk) 17:45, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

LSD itself doesn't deplete anything (that i know of or recall) but depending on what you do during the experience you may need to get yourself back on track the next day (eating habits, etc). As a general rule, I'd say Gatorade is a good thing after you put any drugs or alcohol in your body. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.155.80.115 (talk) 18:58, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

LSD depletes Serotonin from your body's system, as it binds to the chemical compound. After a while, you'll feel realllyyyy depressed, although it IS against my belief to use drugs, I have no problem with this question. Oh, and by the way, go see a psychiatrist/ doctor, pal. LSD has been illegal for a lonnnngggggg time. ♥ECH3LON♥ 22:15, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Is there supposed to be a connection between those last two sentences? DirkvdM 17:57, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to all for your answers. I think I must have started early....I'm seeing elongated words, E's turning into 3's, and soapboxes floating in front of me stating the obvious in a patronizing tone. I'd better turn on some Radiohead and chill out.24.249.210.2 14:00, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Reminds me of my first mushroom trip, which I had on a tropical beach. After half an hour I started seeing these lights flickering in the surf and I went "wow, the trip is starting". Next day I discovered that that was real. It's algae or something that light up in the surf. :) DirkvdM 17:55, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Fantasy Congress

I am currently participating in a Fantasy Congress league. Im looking for a way to find what legislation is going to be voted on a day or two before it acctually happens so I can adjust my roster accordingly. There are serious bragging rights at stake here so if anyone can help me out it would be greatly appreciated.--ChesterMarcol 22:22, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Maybe check out Roll Call? [7] Recury 18:35, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

• If the bragging rights are really serious, hire a lobbyist.  :) --M@rēino 21:55, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I already dominate fantasy football, baseball, and even death pool so my friends are just trying to find a fantasy sport that they can beat me at. There must be some kind of schedule used in congress, or do they just show up and talk about random bills?--ChesterMarcol 00:13, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

The Democratic and Republican leaderships of the House weekly floor briefings, which you can find access via the House Press Gallery. I've only found daily briefings for the Senate. Note that schedules in Congress can change very quickly, and it's often unclear on Monday what will be happening on Wednesday and Thursday. -- Mwalcoff 02:25, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Image of a red bird (eagle) on the side of a mountain in Southern France

I was flying from Rome, Italy to Newark Airport in the USA. Looking out the window, I could see the coast of Italy. We then passed into France, flying over the western Alps. As I looked at the mountains, I saw on the side of one mountain what appeared to be a figure of a red bird - it looked like a stylized eagle. The image faces west. I remember the image being mostly red with a white head and some black markings. It was clearly recognizeable as an object from - what was probably 30,000 feet in the sky. This image must be visible to anyone looking out of an airplane flying in this region. It has to be visible to people on the ground. Any idea what this is? Sorry I can't pin it down anymore, but it is definitely visible from any airplane flying that general route.65.219.208.17 23:39, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

October 18

Potency of morphine

Suppose someone if torturing you by slowly manipulating and cutting your legs into pieces, burning you, and inflicting as much pain as possible, all the while you are awake and do not go into shock. If you were to be injected by a sufficient dosage of morphine, would all the pain go away? Thanks. Acceptable 01:52, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure, but I do know that some things are resistant to morphine, generally toxins. Platypus venom is one example. It seems like a sufficient amount of pain and discomfort could override the drug, although it would take a lot. --Masamage ♫ 02:07, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Burning you could take the lot of pain you are looking for. In which case taking a higher dosage would probably do the trick. Actually, take a high enough dosage and you'll never feel pain again. :) I wonder, though, if the painkilling effect of heroin would keep you from fainting - is that more a mental or more a physical reaction? I am now picturing Acceptable going "Haha, look at that that - my hand is in flames! Hilarious!". :) DirkvdM 18:03, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

In the long term, setting your hand on fire is probably a bad way to torture you. Sure it hurts like hell when you're being burnt but eventually they'll have burnt of your pain receptors (third degree burn) and you won't feel pain anymore in that area meaning no more torture in that area (and of course eventually you may die if it's too severe). Presuming you intend the torture to last a long time, I'm not convinced this sort of burning is a good idea (of course more controlled burning like with hot rods and stuff is a different matter). Also, I expect a sufficiently high dosage of morphine or heroine would probably lead to unconciousness (and of course death if it's too high) so even if it doesn't directly numb the pain, you won't feel it. I could be wrong however, don't try this in Guantanamo Bay Nil Einne 18:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

• Epidural might work. I suspect too much morphine would just put you in sedation. I'm not a doctor, I don't know. --M@rēino 22:04, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

howling by dogs

Why do dogs howl at the moon?steve irungu —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.220.112.202 (talk) 10:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Can't say I've ever seen one do that. I suspect they're howling at something else, probably something we can't hear. --Milkbreath 13:26, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

See Wolf#Howling, which explains why wolves sometimes howl at twilight. I don't think the moon has anything to do with this particularly. Domestic dogs will sometimes howl in sympathy with the people it regards as its fellow pack members when they try to sing.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 14:39, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

A moonlit night would be good for hunting, so howling could be more common on nights with a big full moon. DuncanHill 14:47, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Wolves do it, too. On the other hand, There are nights when the wolves are silent and only the moon howls (George Carlin). -- JackofOz 01:58, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Odd arm movements by Russian football fans

Watching Match of the Day last night, they gave a brief, unexplained glimpse of the Russian football fans during the game against England making an odd gesture, en-masse. It vaguely resembled a Nazi salute, but was more of a sideways gesticulation than the famous near-vertical salute. They were all pretty much in time, so I guess it was co-ordinated with a song or chant. I was curious as to what this was. Anyone? --Dweller 10:39, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

They were waving at you!87.102.3.9 15:19, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

They were making ripples in a liquid and/or oscillating? Kuronue | Talk 15:28, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Is that a pun on "fans"? --Dweller 15:42, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Seriously I imagine it's just a variation on the mexican wave - but the russians are too lazy to stand up/sit down -so they just wave their hands?87.102.3.9 16:32, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Maybe, but probably not. It was a one-armed cross-chest sweeping motion, which wouldn't show up as well as the usual above-head Mexican wave. --Dweller 10:48, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Maybe it was a mass-socio-political comment on the herd mentality that causes people to adopt the behaviour around they see around them - though I think it's more likely that they were saluting you personally Dweller..

..Honestly - no idea - I give up.87.102.7.57 11:42, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Nautilus Minerals

http://finance.google.com/finance?q=LON%3ANUS

is the same company as

http://finance.google.com/finance?q=TSE%3ANUS&hl=en

except traded in London instead of Toronto.

Which is all the same as:

http://www.nautilusminerals.com/s/Investors-StockInfo.asp

why do all of them show a different trend for stock prices over a year? At the very least they should be "relatively" the same if not absolutely. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.217.195.89 (talk) 15:38, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

• WOW, the Canadian one took a massive swan dive on Aug 17-20 ... which is not present on MSN's version of the chart. It looks like you stumbled across an error in Google's numbers. --M@rēino 22:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Ref Desk

My friend pointed the following out to me when he got angry. lol, and I have noticed the trend. If some one asks question X and it is answered by bob by saying Y, Dough disagrees with this and says ABC, Jill then comes on and says that dough's ABC answer is closer related to DEF, Jill dough and bob then discuss the finer points of Y, ABC, and DEF. Meanwhile the original question X never gets answered atall since Bob's Y answer was meant to be humourous or was misleading, or just plain erronious. Are there or should there be guidelines to answering questions and if so, should this be monitored? thanks, oh, I hope that makes scence. Sorry if it doesnt. 193.115.175.247 16:18, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

People who answer questions are ordinary human beings. They respond to things that interest them. There are some guidelines, such as trying to be polite and to assume goodwill. Sometimes we mess up. Sometimes we think the questioner should have read the guidelines at the top. Sometimes the question is unanswerable.

However, like contributors to any other part of the Wikipedia, we are rewarded only by the pleasure we get in answering or reading other people's answers.SaundersW 16:26, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Reference desk folks are also all volunteer, so if you think that we're not providing appropriate service to a given questioner, you can always be bold and jump in to help!

Atlant 16:29, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Yep - exactly. Ref desks are staffed by people who do this for no pay because we enjoy doing it. There is no other reason. If we aren't happy doing it - we won't be here and no questions will get answered. If it makes us happy to go off on a slight tangent some of the time (we're actually mostly answering each others questions that came about in the course of answering the original one) - that's actually better for the ref desk in the long term. Generally, if a question isn't answered well in the first handful of responses, it was a dumb or clearly unanswerable question in the first place. We get a lot of REALLY bad questions! SteveBaker 19:07, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes that happens a lot - and can be annoying - the answerers aren't suppose to go off on a tangent - but sometime do. If that happens to a question you ask it's annoying but complaining rarely gets anywhere here... If a question doesn't get answered or gets 'hijacked' I would recommend just re-asking the same quetion again and hope for the best.87.102.3.9 16:28, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Some users seem to get pleasure from not answering the question an inserting their own jokes etc which often don't seem helpful. Are there any guidlines for answerers?87.102.3.9 16:29, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Here are the basic guidelines governing the refdesks: Wikipedia:Reference_desk/guidelines, although of course other site-wide Wikipedia policies apply also. Considering, as was mentioned, that this is a volunteer-staffed free service, I think the occasional tangent is inevitable and they are, imo, often more interesting than the original question anyways. Also, if the original question isn't answered satisfactorily it may be because no one knows the answer, and of course the questioner is free to post follow-ups and requests for clarification. Finally, feel free to "monitor" answers yourself and bring up specific concerns on the discussion page as this might be more helpful than merely complaining about a general trend you claim to be seeing with no specific diffs supplied. 38.112.225.84 16:50, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Sometimes thing go off tangent because the question was silly anyway. Like the case where someone wanted to find out how to seduce his wife sexually so she would be in his control once again. This may have been trolling anyway but if not, I don't see how it's harmful when it goes off on a tangent Nil Einne 18:09, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

It is annoying when a reasonably legitimate, sensible question gets hit by a dumb joke answer - or someone deliberately misinterprets a typo or grammar error. We DO have policies telling people not to do that and if it annoys you, I recommend you go to their personal Talk: page and tell them that. SteveBaker 19:07, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't know about this. While I agree we need to be a lot more careful with legitimate, sensible questions; if someone in jest makes fun of something without being offensive then that seems fine to me provided the joking doesn't get carried away. Even more so if it's part of a legitimate answer. Whatever the case, if it's your question or the question asker seems pertubed by it then sure, take it to the talk page if you do have a problem with it. But if not, leave it be as community building. Nil Einne 19:52, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

There are, and it is. --Milkbreath 19:17, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

It is also particularly disruptive when editors make use of an unrelated reference desk question to criticize other editors. Such posts really belong on a talk page, not here. (The rest of this message will be devoted to a discussion about diabetic sheep.) --S.dedalus 21:11, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Are those sheep who graze on sugar cane? Corvus cornix 18:36, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I think Johann Sebastian Bach is the best person to ask about that. -- JackofOz 01:55, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Windows

Sorry to inundate yopu with questions but...If I loose my windows cd and licence ect, is it legal for me to use my friends disk to reinstall windows. I have bought a copy legally, but it has now gone walkabout. do I NEED to buy a new copy or can I download XP from some where, or just use a friends. thankx 193.115.175.247 16:19, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

If you were to do that, I believe you would stand a chance of being caught by the 'Windows Genuine Advantage' software, leading me to believe that Microsoft doesn't consider it legal. If you ask at the computing desk, there's a good chance they know another way of reinstalling. Skittle 16:53, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

It's perfectly fine to install from someone else's disc, but only if you use your license key, not your friend's. If you lost your license key but can prove you had one (e.g. you still have an installed system using that key), then Microsoft product support can probably help you. Otherwise you'll probably have to buy a new copy. I doubt it's legal to install Windows from a CD you downloaded via BitTorrent, even if you use a legitimate key. -- BenRG 17:01, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't be so sure about that. If you have a legitimate license and are not using anything you're not entitled to use then I don't see how the source would matter. Of course, it may be difficult to prove you have a legitimate license if you don't have the original CD but that doesn't mean it would be illegal. Also, depending on where you live, copyright violation for your own personal use may not be illegal but simply a civil matter between you and the copyright owner (it is potentially illegal in the US, UK and NZ) Nil Einne 18:03, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I started to post something like this and decided it hung on how Ben's statement is interpreted. "Downloading Windows via Bittorrent and installing it with your legitimate license key is illegal" is probably true, but only because "downloading Windows via Bittorrent is illegal" is probably true. As for proving you have a legitimate license, that hangs on the certificate or sticker (whatever MS is packaging now) that has the license key printed on it, not the disc. — Lomn 18:07, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

That presumes downloading Windows via bittorent is illegal... This may not be the case, presuming you have the legal right to use Windows I'm not convinced it will be in many countries. Presemuaing you have the right to make archival copies for example, the law is usually silent on how you can make these copies. Note that even license agreements don't appear to usually specify how the archival copies are made. For example the XP EULA [8] mentions "You may also store or install a copy of the Software on a storage device, such as a network server, used only to install or run the Software on your other Workstation Computers over an internal network" so it explicitly gives you the right to store a copy. I don't see how getting the copy from bittorent instead of copying it from the CD will make a difference. (The fact that the person sharing it may be breaking the law is not your business provided you aren't paying them or something like that. Even more so if they aren't in the same country I expect.) Of course, with bittorent you generally have to upload what you're downloading and uploading it to other people may be illegal. But that doesn't change the fact that the actually downloading itself may not be illegal, you could always hack the bittorent client to give nothing or nonsense back (in most cases this will result in you getting a very slow download or banned but the point is it's possible). In the end, I doubt we will ever know since I doubt this will ever be tested in court. Presuming you can show you have a license, no government is likely to prosecute you simply for downloading something you are legally entitled to use (without uploading it to others). I don't think even a company is likely to sue you (which of course probably won't test the legality anyway)... Of course, none of this constitutes legal advice. Nil Einne 19:10, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Hacker

used to use a program called hacker, it was used to cheat at games. I used it primarily on Warcraft I and II and Daggerfall, but it could be used on most games that save...Lets say you are playing Warcraft and you have 200 gold. you save your game as ZYX and exit, open up hacker and ask it to find 200 in save game file XYZ then ask it to change this to 99999999999999. you then enter Warcraft again and open you save game and VOILA! you gold is now 9999999999999. It was really helpful, and since I am playing alot of old games again recently, I would like to find it again. does any one know of this file, and where to find it now days.

On a seperate note, could a program like this be used for Illegal purposes, eg edit my bank account. Obviously I would not do this but am curious, as it was SOOO easy to hack games.

Thanks193.115.175.247 16:20, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Many game system emulators have built-in cheat systems with functionality like this. For popular games you'll almost certainly be able to find a game-specific saved-game editor by doing a web search. Failing that, a general-purpose hex editor will have the functionality you're looking for. For Windows, HxD is a decent one; it can edit not only files but the address space of processes, so you can do the search-and-replace trick even without saving (but be careful). No, you can't use these programs to hack your bank account. Banks are very good at protecting their assets against far more sophisticated attacks than this. -- BenRG 17:09, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

In principle, however, the bank analogy works. Somewhere electronic data representing your bank balance is stored, and said data can be changed. As Ben notes, in practice, the bank and the game cannot be meaningfully compared. — Lomn 17:14, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

You might get more answers on the computing desk. If you just want to cheat in Warcraft, what's wrong with the ingame cheat codes? 'glittering prizes' gave lots of gold and lumber in WCII, IIRC. Algebraist 17:12, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

One reason why the game is relatively easy to hack is that the only person that you are cheating by hacking the game is yourself. Not so a bank. SaundersW 18:29, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

The difference is that your bank balance isn't stored on your computer - it's stored on the bank's computer. So this trick might work if you could run the program on the bank's mainframe at headquarters - but it's definitely not going to work at home! For games where this stuff doesn't matter all that much, you'll get away with simple cheats. But it's trivially easy for the game programmers to stop you from doing that if they want to. The simplest thing would be to encrypt the score/gold/lives/whatever totals so your hacker program can't find '200' anywhere in the game save info. More likely, you'd add something like a checksum to the data - so any change anywhere in the game save data would break it and render the whole thing unusable. So to the extent you can actually do this - it's because someone at the software company decided they didn't mind you doing it. In a world where there are 'achievement points' and online multiplayer games, this kind of thing is less and less acceptable - so expect programs like that to fail more and more often. SteveBaker 18:58, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Even if you had appropriate access, the trick of replacing one balance figure with another definitely wouldn't work on a bank's computer or any other decent financial system. Financial systems are designed with a lot of built-in redundancy. Double entry accounting and audit trails are intended to detect figures which might have been changed either accidentally or deliberately. A change to a single balance figure would be immediately spotted next time the system ran a trial balance check, which should be done daily. Gandalf61 10:40, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

What are your professions?

This is random so I stuck it in miscellaneous, but I was just curious what sorts of people are answering these questions? I thought I read somewhere that lots of the people who edit or participate on wikipedia are generally professional class (ie: dentist, IT specialists, etc), but the things they edit or answer are just hobbies they happen to have a lot of knowledge on. Such as a dentist who happens to love history and has quite a broad and accurate knowledge of it though he has no formal history education or credentials. Anyway, to make a long question slightly longer: 1. What is your profession and/or education level? 2. Do you normally answer questions or create/edit articles in that area or some other area? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.28.144.36 (talk) 21:50, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

It's a sweet, polite and reasonable question, but I think you will find most information by looking at editors' user pages. There are many reasons why people will only reveal a little personal information, some of them even good reasons. (This is not meant as any kind of rebuke or rebuff!) SaundersW 21:55, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

'll pop my response in before some stickler for the rules slaps a 'wikipedia is not an x' on your question...I work as an 'analyst' in the area of 'risk'. Educated to college level but currently studying with the Open University for a degree in International Studies (essentially politics). I pretty much just answer questions on the ref-desk, but ocassionally alter articles if i've seen a show/read something that I think might be of use to someone else. I guess your best bet if you want to find this sort of info is to go to the individual's user-page. A lot of them have details like this on them. Certianly I notice the same names on the ref-desk helping out a lot. ny156uk 21:58, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is most certainly not an x...it's more of a W. SteveBaker 23:29, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Hey, maybe that could become our 'sign'. Churchill and the hippies had the two fingers in the air, maybe we could recognise each other in the street with a 'three-finger salute'. :) DirkvdM 05:39, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe there is any statistical data on Reference Desk contributors (though it is an interesting idea, if only to be aware of our systemic biases). However, you can learn more about what sort of people in general frequent Wikipedia in general, by reading the data in Wikipedia:User survey. Otherwise, your best bet is to click on the link to individuals pages and see what they say about themselves. If you wish to start a centralized section where individual editors can "tell us about themselves", its probably better to do so in the talk page. Rockpocket 22:18, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Taking the reliable source of 'people who get angry at people on the internet', I thought none of us had jobs or lives of any sort, as we all sit in our parents' homes the entire day, every day, being fed tea and biscuits (or milk and cookies), reading a couple of articles over and over, refreshing, so that we can spot changes and revert them... Skittle 23:47, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

By just looking at their account names u can tell that most of them r teenagers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.230.110.162 (talk) 00:03, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

You can't really tell peoples ages or professions by what their account names are. You may assume by my name (Onceonthisisland) that I work on an Island, or do something with musical theatre. I do neither. Just a thought. --θnce θn this island ^Speak! 00:34, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Incidentally, why the thetas? Skittle 00:36, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Because he is a teenager who works in musical theatre in the Greek Isles, of course. Rockpocket 01:33, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I've noticed a lot of university students (like me) and semi-retired professionals here. Of course, no one should take what is said on here as gospel. Please don't, but most people will answer in good faith (i.e. they believe it to be true). 130.56.65.24 02:37, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

A fair number of Wikipedians put user boxes on their pages. These are not quite all serious, but a fair few are. See Wikipedia:Userboxes#Gallery, click one, say Wikipedia:Userboxes/Profession, and then click 'what links here' next to ,say, 'acountant'. And there you have the Wikipedians who used a userbox to state they are accountants. Of course, not quite all accountants have placed this user box on their user page, so it won't give you absolute numbers, but you can compare the numbers to get an idea of how the professions balance out. Then again, it doesn't quite look cool to state you're an accountant, so you only get the brave ones here. :) It surprises me that there are so many more biologists (around 80) than astronomers (10). Oh, btw, with the biologists, you need to click '500' because there are more than 50. And if there are more than 500 (such as academics) then you need to click 'next' until you 'run out of nexts'. And you have to count - there's no 'total number of hits' indication. Of course, this is an extremely rough indication, but what you asked (some people here telling what they are and do) would give a rougher indication still. DirkvdM 06:16, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Don't forget that level of education does not necessarily equate to level of intelligence. I abhor responsibility, am terribly lazy and lack motivation and patience but am considered relatively intelligent (and modest to boot) and as a result of this have a crap job (I am basically a glorified secretary) even though I am capable of far more. I mainly just hang around the reference desk as I enjoy reading other peoples responses and answering questions. I know a little about a lot, but not a lot about anything specific. Lanfear's Bane | t 11:18, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Sounds a lot like me (apart from the modesty bit and the profession). DirkvdM 17:54, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I imagine a few are unemployed (..insert profession..) as well as the retired and vast numbers of 11 year olds [[9]]87.102.7.57 12:57, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure that a lot more than a few are unemployed. The survey linked to above indicates that just over half have a job. DirkvdM 17:54, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

By bizarre coincidence, with regard to ny156uk's reply above ... my job title is also "Risk Analyst". I work in a specialised financial field (Receivables Finance) and have a degree in Economics and Politics, but never edit articles on any of these topics. I contribute occasionally to the ref desks, and more frequently contribute to actual articles (especially in the areas of transport and UK towns/cities) and record spoken versions of articles. These are the topics I feel I am most knowledgeable about and can write most effectively about. Hassocks5489 18:17, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, I’m a college student with an addiction to writing (although that’s not my subject). I think that’s probably one of the more common stereotypes around here. --S.dedalus 23:08, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Is there a userbox for "This user needs a job"? DuncanHill 01:07, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

JOBThis user needs a job.

There is now. Adapt it to suit your needs - see halfway down Wikipedia:Userboxes. Next step would be to make a 'shortcut template' like {{unemployed}} or such. Can't find how to do that (didn't look too hard). DirkvdM 06:08, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm a laboratory technician (no article on us?) working for a branch of the Environmental Services Group (or on them?). I'm sure it'll look good on a CV some day, but I'd earn more working in the pub down the road, and the job mostly involves sitting alone in a room for seven hours a day testing identical-looking samples (well, aside from the odd one smelling of shit or motor oil, or filled with asbestos). Still, I do enjoy the peace and quiet. GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 20:25, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

October 19

drake and josh

I josh gay? Everytime that i watch the show, josh always does this flinch when he rarely kisses a girl. It doesn't look like he enjoys it that much like Drake does. and i also saw that he has an earring on his right ear, so it just made me wonder. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.230.110.162 (talk) 00:13, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

But if he (the character) were gay, he wouldn't kiss girls. Do you mean the character or the actor playing him? Cheers,JetLover (Report a mistake) 02:36, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean in the show or in real life? either way wikipedia probably would be unable to answer that. It would pretty much just come down to a matter of opinion between various editors. The only way to know if that is the case on the show is a statement by Nickelodeon or Viacom and if in real life then only a statement by him or a release of incontrivertable evidence could answer that.Cryo921 03:11, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

He told me it was the actor [10]. It's a hard thing to get right, he has never talked about it. I don't really know how to answer. Cheers,JetLover (Report a mistake) 03:25, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

• For everyone who doesn't know --> Drake and Josh. My answer: Earring? Since when do earrings have to do with someone's sexuality? Also, not kissing girls doesn't mean anything either. He might be shy, he could have a germ-phobia, or he could simply be in control of his feelings. Either way, it's impossible to tell without evidence like the others said - Mgm|^(talk) 08:22, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Supposedly men who wear earrings in their right ear are indicating that they are gay, unlike straight guys like me who wear an earring in the left ear. I remember hearing this "theory" from something like ten years ago when I first got both my ears pierced (I'm in the NW region of the US), though as of now I only wear one earring in my left ear. My extremely informal and unscientific observational research over the years suggests that there may be some validity to this idea, although I doubt its universal. Seems silly now, but I think I'd still be somewhat self-concious wearing one in my right ear alone, though one in each is fine. I would be interested to hear any gay guys out there weigh in: secret code or would I be safe from being constantly hit on if I decided to switch up ears. :) 38.112.225.84 14:02, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Sample size of one - I'm gay, I wear a single earring in my left ear. The days of an earring indicating anything are long gone, if they ever existed. Also, Mr. Clean, single earring in his left ear, but he likes housework. Not that there's anything wrong with that... --LarryMac | Talk 14:55, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Anime Film Name

I was watching a anime film but i dont know the name,its about some guy who's like a space adventurer,at the start of the film,he shown as a baby,boy.teenager and adult,he has a female robot who falls in love with him,and then some unicorn or whatever,and finally the adventurer becomes a baby again and he is taken by the female robot now a human woman,i would like to know the name of that anime film,thank you!!!

You asked this question before and nobody knew try google —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.230.110.162 (talk) 00:35, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

The lead singer of Magneto (band)

What is the real name of the singer of Magneto (band), Alan (singer) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ericthebrainiac (talk • contribs) 00:51, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

• According to his mp3.com page, it is Erick Ibarra Miramontes -- Ferkelparade π 07:22, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Why did you include links to the articles on Non Sequitur, dolphin, irredentism, Soccer, Botswana, Lewis and Clark, Buick, and Cairo in your answer? Cryo921 08:42, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Because we get really annoyed by Ericthebrainiacs habit of linking words like "the" in his questions. SteveBaker 11:35, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Time period

If 10 years is a decade, 20 years is a score, 100 years is a century, what is 1000 years? Are there other referenced timed periods? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.138.216.26 (talk) 01:03, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

A millenium ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.65.125 (talk) 01:14, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Normally spelled millennium. --Anon, 03:04 UTC, Oct. 19.

The spelling with two 'n's is correct. Wiktionary says the version with one 'n' is a "common misspelling". SteveBaker 09:24, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree, but it's a matter of opinion (in other words, POV) what's a common misspelling and what's a variant spelling. --Anon, 22:17, Oct. 19.

Here is a list (at the end of the document). It looks OK, but I wouldn't bet my life on its veracity. --Milkbreath 01:22, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

It's a millennium any way i do believe a score only means 20, not twenty years Cryo921 03:15, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

That's right. We refer to 20 years as a "score of years", not just a score. -- JackofOz 04:16, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Then what does "four score and seven years ago" mean? --124.254.77.148 06:30, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

"Four (groups of) twenty plus seven" years ago, (i.e. 87 years. The Gettysberg Address was given in 1863, 87 years after the United States Declaration of Independence). Here "score" is used with years, not by itself. As Cryo921 said, a score is 20 of something. -- Flyguy649 ^talk 06:38, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

It's like "four hundred and seven years ago". Parse it as "(four score and seven)years ago" - not "(four score) and (seven years) ago". SteveBaker 09:27, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Category:Units of time page lists some other named time periods. For the exhaustive Hindu system, see Hindu units of measurement. Another ancient system at Mesoamerican Long Count calendar. For something still used today, see Great year; and while you're at it, Category:Time in astronomy. Pfly 06:54, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

To the original questioner: I heard somewhere that “an age” originally meant one thousand years. If true it’s a quite archaic term in any case. --S.dedalus 22:51, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

The Romans also had lustrum, five years, sometimes translated as lustre. Xn4 03:50, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I was surprised that "olympiad" wasn't in the Units of time Category. An olympiad is a period of 4 years between successive celebrations of the Olympic Games (and not, as we're so often egregiously misinformed by journalists, the games themselves). -- JackofOz 01:51, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Relaxing over Tensing

This was inspired by a question above but it's sort of a tangent. Many people say that if you relax your body rather than tensing it you have a much greater chance of surviving a sudden impact (eg a baby is more likely to survive a multistory fall than an adult because they're relaxed, a person asleep is more likely to survive a crash with a seatbelt then a person awake with a seatbelt because they don't know what is about to hit them). However, people like the Shaolin monks and stuff do the opposite, they build up and tense parts of their bodies so that they can take blows that they'd have no chance of withstanding if they were relaxed.

So does being relaxed really give you more chance of withstanding a sudden impact, and if so why? 144.137.82.91 07:22, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

It's got to depend on the nature and extent of the impact. Here is a thought experiment for you: Take a ceramic coffee mug and an aluminium coke can and toss them out of a tenth floor window onto concrete...which one survives the best? The coffee mug is super-stiff - it can't absorb the energy without breaking - the coke can bends a bit - but it survives. OK - now, with a new coffee cup and coke can - stab each one as hard as you can with the point of a pencil. The coffee cup survives intact - the coke can has a big dent in one side and perhaps even a small hole. Being relaxed in a car accident is like being the softer coke can in the first experiment. Tensing your abdominal muscle when you are about to take a blow to the stomach is like being the ceramic cup in the second experiment. Failure to tense his stomach muscles when being punched is said by some to be what killed Harry Houdini. SteveBaker 09:20, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I've also heard, though not seen any supporting research, that drunks have a better chance of surviving car accidents because of the "relaxed" phenomenon. In regards to your martial arts example, there is a style, Drunken Boxing, that seeks to take advantage of the amazingly cool and fun super abilities conferred by drinking alcohol. *hic*. 38.112.225.84 13:48, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

And don't forget that Edmund Hillary was able to climb Everest thanks to Tensing. 80.254.147.52 15:45, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Very clever :) GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 20:14, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Why the doggy dance?

What is the purpose of the dance-like movements of a dog before defecating. I'm aware that smell has an effect on the dog in respect of triggering the response to toilet but once the location is established via the smell, what further purpose is achieved by the 'fine tuning' gyrations whilst performing the act? Yes I'm a dog owner and it's always amused me to see the dog never seemingly being satisfied by its first choice of location. Makes the clean-up afterwards somewhat tedious too :) ---- WebHamster 10:10, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Nothing like finding the perfect spot. Kind of like shifting around in your seat until you are comfortable or deciding which urinal to approach. Not as good as the scuffing feet afterwards and looking all pleased with yourself. Can't beat kicking up some grass. Don't forget that in the wild animals frequently use excerement to mark their territory. My Jack Russell follows my Cross around and pees over anywhere he pees. She even cocks her leg a little at one year (yes, she) while he still squats at two years. She's such a tomboy. Lanfear's Bane | t 11:08, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Dogs are really into body language - it's probably some kind of signal to the rest of the pack...which is YOU...and you are totally failing to pay appropriate attention to the message (whatever it is)! SteveBaker 11:29, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

My labrador retriever does an amusing spinning of the back end before pooping that I have theorized (without evidence!) is an instinct to clear out any nasties (snakes, etc.) that might be lurking in the brush. Better to find out just before than during. --Sean 14:08, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Gonzuka

If I could figure out how to add a page I would but I also cannot find any information on GONZUKA or GONZUKA Precidence. Seems Gonzuka has disappeared from our history. I was surprised Wiki didn't have it. In fact no search engines had any information

I found the Gonzuka here http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/iraq/military-contractors.html

Maybe someone with Wiki can post more on this lost precedence. I do not think I need to explain to any of you what the Gonzuka pertains to. TY —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.244.9.154 (talk) 11:47, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Gave seperate section. Lanfear's Bane | t 12:10, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can see, this is merely a Korean word meaning "contractor". Wilipedia is not a Korean dictionary, but if you think this should have its own Wikipedia article, please see Help:Starting a new page.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 13:01, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

You said: I do not think I need to explain to any of you what the Gonzuka pertains to - well, I'm sorry, but you do have to explain if you want a decent answer! If no search engines are finding anything, you've probably spelled it wrong or something. Explaining what you think it means would definitely help to find out what the heck you are talking about! SteveBaker 13:58, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Note that the article cited spells it gonzoku. —Tamfang 09:47, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

bibliography

Hello i am trying to write my referances for my national history project and you are a part of it so ineed the following information:

• year or edition

Thats it thanks!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.236.38.248 (talk) 12:12, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

This site gives the following examples of references from an online encyclopedia:

c. Internet citation for an article from an online encyclopedia:

Duiker, William J. "Ho Chi Minh." Encarta Online Encyclopedia. 2005. Microsoft. 10 Oct. 2005 <http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761558397/Ho_Chi_Minh.html>.

"Ho Chi Minh." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2005. Encyclopædia Britannica Premium Service. 9 Oct. 2005 <http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9040629>.

"Royal Shakespeare Company (RSC)." Britannica Concise Encyclopedia. 2005. Encyclopædia Britannica. 8 Oct. 2005 <http://concise.britannica.com/ebc/article?eu=402567>.

The dates in the citation are the date of publication (which you could find by burrowing into the edit history and finding the exact date on which the part you quote was posted, or else just say 2007, if you accessed it this year) and the date with day and month on which you accessed the page. The assumption is that most documents are published just once on a specific date, rather than continuously updated like Wikipedia. SaundersW 12:25, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

To cite Wikipedia, go to the article you wish to cite, then click on the "Cite this article" link in the toolbox in the left hand column.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 12:46, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I am pretty sure this edition of Wikipedia was published in 1958. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 09:17, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

general

1. The volcano Vesuvius is located in?
2. The country known as the Land of White Elephant is?
3. The place known as the Roof of the world is?
4. The world's largest diamond producing country is?
5. The founder of modern Germany is?

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Mufleeh (talk • contribs) 12:48, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

All the answers to these questions can be found by doing your own research. Try typing the key phrases into a search engine, and looking through the results.87.102.7.57 12:51, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

These are really pretty easy Google/Wiki searches...but a couple of them are tricky.

1. The volcano Vesuvius is located in? -- Mount Vesuvius is the volcano. It's located in Naples, Italy.
2. The country known as the Land of White Elephant is? -- Neither Google nor Wikipedia shows any such place. But White elephant says that these animals are prized in Burma, Tailand and Cambodia. White elephant (pachyderm) has more details.

(http://ww.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=+Land+of+White+Elephant+&meta= clearly gives Burma, Siam ,Thailand or SE asia in general)87.102.7.57 14:09, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

1. The place known as the Roof of the world is? -- Variously, Mount Everest or the entire Tibetan Plateau.
2. The world's largest diamond producing country is? -- According to Diamond that would be central and southern Africa. This image shows more: Image:Diamond output2.PNG
3. The founder of modern Germany is? -- A matter of debate - depending on how "modern" you mean. I guess I'd argue for William I, German Emperor who was the first person to unify Germany.

SteveBaker 13:46, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

(http://ww.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=%22founder+of+modern+germany%22&meta= Bismarck most likely)87.102.7.57 14:12, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd go for Bismarck over William. GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 16:11, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Never mind Bismark and Wilhelm, what about the Hoff? FiggyBee 21:04, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Vesuvius isn't in Naples, it's on the outskirts, actually closer to Ercolano. Corvus cornix 18:42, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Vesuvius is in (..sub-state of..) of Italy?87.102.17.46 13:08, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

For #4: The largest country which produces diamonds, or the country which produces the most diamonds? − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 09:14, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Obviously the country that produces the largest diamonds!87.102.17.46 13:07, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Cloning yourself

If you cloned yourself and had a relationship with your clone would that be incest? --124.254.77.148 14:22, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Complex masterbation perhaps. Lanfear's Bane | t 15:02, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

By my reading of our articles on incest and kinship the answer is a clear yes. Whether the activity would be covered by current laws on incest is a distinct question - it depends on how the law defines the act of incest (i.e. there is a difference between the common definition of incest, and violation of the laws prohibiting incest in any jurisdiction). Presumably by the time the ability to clone yourself existed as a practical activity, the law definition would catch up. --Tagishsimon (talk) 15:10, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

A similar dilemma is presented in The Time Traveler's Wife when the protagonist meets a slightly younger version of himself. I won't spoil it for you but it is mildly amusing. Good book too for anyone interested, don't be put off by the fact Richard and Judy plugged it. Lanfear's Bane | t 15:29, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

My wife cried like Gazza at the end of that book. As for cloning, Tagishsimon hit the nail on the head. It would technically be incest, but our incest laws are based upon social contructs, not complex genetic ones. This question is one of many that ethicists will have to struggle with should the technology and will to clone humans emerge. The problem is merely a social one though, because since your clone would be the same sex as you, the risk of inbreeding isn't an issue. Personally, I would say that anyone who found themselves in this situation should probably consider whether that suffer from Narcissistic personality disorder. Rockpocket 18:32, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

See also All You Zombies— by Robert Heinlein for a classic science fiction short story on this topic. (Warning: our article contains spoilers.) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:20, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, that's not even the best example from Heinlein; there wasn't any cloning involved in that story. Whereas there was in one of the Lazarus Long stories, and the issue comes up directly with Laz and Lor. --Trovatore 20:53, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Time Enough for Love. Gandalf61 21:07, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

A similar one-liner I once heard "When siamese twins have sex with each other, is that incest or masturbation?".risk 21:10, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

See http://xkcd.com/267/ --ffroth 00:01, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Deodorant

Every single stick of deodorant that I have had always has the words "apply to underarms only". I can't treally think of any practical or health reasons as to why it should only be applied to the underarms only. Does anyone know why the deodorant companies do this?

Thanks.

129.100.206.134 14:33, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Because "do not eat" would sound even stupider? I guess some idiot somewhere might get it into his head to rub it all over to stop sweating, which would be dangerous in the heat and would lead to a lawsuit. --Milkbreath 15:09, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

(EC) I'd assume trying to reduce corporate liability is a primary reason. Here in the U.S. people are prone to sue companies at the drop of the hat, which makes it prudent to try and cover all your bases. However, this does lead to some pretty ridiculous, though often amusing, warnings on products. I believe there are even yearly "awards" that are given out for the most self-evident, or stupid, or whatever product warnings; although the name of this award escapes me at the moment it's good for a chuckle if I recall. Besides, it's not inconceivable, unfortunately, that some idiot with bad breath would decide to eat their deodorant and then sue the company after the ensuing, inevitable I'd think, sickness occurs. 38.112.225.84 15:11, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Warning: This product is packaged in a factory which handles peanuts. - on a packet of peanuts is the best one I've seen in real life. --Kurt Shaped Box 15:38, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Darwin Awards. Lanfear's Bane | t 15:15, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

You can have a peek at these, [11], although how true some of them are I do not know. Sainsbury's Tiramasu used to say 'Do not turn upside down' on the bottom of the product. You can check next time you are in. Lanfear's Bane | t 15:19, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Last year I noticed that the posters on the walls in Burger King (featuring large photos of burgers, donuts, ice creams and whatnot) had "not actual size" in small print at the bottom.... --Kurt Shaped Box 15:49, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Also it really f------g stings if you spray it elsewere - (don't try it - I mean really stings)87.102.7.57 15:32, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Which reminds me of the opening titles to Tucker's Luck. DuncanHill 15:33, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I can confirm it stings. If spraying deodorant before getting dressed, do not maintain a constant pressure whilst moving from armpit to armpit in a lazy loop via 'the delicate masculine area'. It stings. Deep Heat on the other hand which you would expect to sting is very comfortable in small amounts. Shower gels with mint however, I find coolingly uncomfortable. Lanfear's Bane | t 15:42, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Darwin Awards isn't it. I think I found the awards I was trying to remember, [[12]]. As to the tangent about stinging experiences: A few years back I strained a groin muscle playing soccer and decided that some Bengay might help. Anyways, the fumes or whatever drifted upwards and it was seriously one of the most painful experiences ever. So don't do that. On the other hand, a little Gold Bond medicated powder on the sack feels like a million fairies gently blowing on it, highly reccomend. 38.112.225.84 16:23, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I've seen a package of chips that has "Play to win!" and "Purchase not needed to enter contest", but it says that the details and extra needed info were on the inside. You must have to be a thief to not need to purchase it in order to do the contest ^_^ --PolarWolf ( grrr... ) 01:01, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

The explanation for that one is that if they required you to make a purchase to enter the contest, they'd be running a lottery, which is illegal in many places, or requires an expensive licence in others. But obviously they don't want you to enter for free, so they have to put the details somewhere you can't see them unless you buy and open the product. FiggyBee 03:45, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

By the way, I find that a spray of alcohol works at least as well as "deodorant", and it's way cheap. (It's not the sweat itself that stinks, but bacteria that live in it.) —Tamfang 09:57, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

It's not an antiperspirant though, unless you soak your armpits until the skin has boiled off :P --ffroth 15:52, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Neither, presumably, are the other deodorants mentioned in this item. —Tamfang 06:05, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Signs Website

"If your smokestack falls over, do not allow giant lips to fly out of it."

Several years ago I saw a website where people would post pictures of warning signs from around the world, and users could leave funny comments on what the sign meant (not-so-funny example at right). Does anyone happen to have a link to that site? Thanks. --Sean 16:01, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I can think of another comment on the example on the right. A round sign with a red border is a prohibition sign. A strike-through means a negation. So the sign reads 'forbidden not to smoke'. :) DirkvdM 18:04, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

• That joke works in Europe, but not in North America, where the red circle by itself has no particular meaning and needs the slash to form a negation symbol. I don't know about other continents. --Anon, 22:25 UTC, October 19, 2007.

There are lots of such websites. If you Google "funny signs" this is the first hit out of many thousands. As a cyclist, this is one of my local favourites.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 18:31, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Here's one I took myself, when I lived in Toronto. --Trovatore 19:36, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

• No, I'm looking for something more specific than that. It was "funny comments about real signs" rather than "funny signs". --Sean 18:43, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

See also July 25#weird road signs. A.Z. 03:32, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

swanksigns.org --Bavi H 14:57, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Old English villages in America

Is there a list, of even one for that matter, of old English villages in America or places where a traveler from GB can go and feel right at home as if back in the UK, here in America? Clem 21:32, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Are you serious? There are no such places. There are some towns and villages that can be traced back to early English settlement, but they're nowadays just as American as everywhere else.--Pharos 21:36, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, perfectly serious. There are in fact two places in South Carolina that are not villages but which are still owned by the descendants of the persons whom the King of England granted property prior to the revolution. One is an inn and the other is a quail hunting lodge. The descendants are of course American but relish their English heritage and operate more or less according to its cultural rules. Very relaxing for the traveler weary of the sheer insanity of the lower classes that the rest of America accomodates. Clem 21:56, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

There are places where Americans have created what they think an old English village is like. In reality they turn out to be a rather amusing parody. The English village at by London Bridge in Lake Havasu City is a good example, though it has run into disrepair recently (which, ironically enough, might be the one thing that it has in common with real English villages). However, if you want to feel at home in the US (at least on the west coast) I find a visit to Santa Monica does the trick. The place is crawling with ex-pat Brits, and there are some really decent pubs serving English beer, food and with proper football on the telly! There is also a shop selling British food (at extortionate prices) which they import themselves. I got myself a can of Irn-Bru there last time i visited. The only slightly disconcerting thing is the amazing weather and tanned, beautiful people at the bar (rather than some old wino with his dog demanding another pint of scrumpy). Rockpocket 22:19, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

To clarify, lest I give readers the wrong idea of english village pubs, its the wino who would typically be demanding the scrumpy, not the dog) Rockpocket 19:17, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't know, some pubs I've been in it'd be the dog. DuncanHill 19:21, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

There also the Plimoth Plantation, but that would only work for you if you felt at home in 6127. Rockpocket 22:25, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Where is 6127? --Anon, 22:27 UTC, Oct. 91. :-)

Eeek. I meant 1627. Rockpocket 22:30, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

The beach at Santa Monica always strikes me as the most English part. The pier is very English seaside town, and 'Shutters on the Beach' could be in Bournemouth. There's another public beach away from the built-up area of LA, about an hour's drive to the north west of Santa Monica, along the Pacific Coast Highway, which I find very English, but I've forgotten the name of it. It's a Spanish name. Xn4 03:24, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

It's not in America (at least, not the United States thereof), but Victoria, British Columbia prides itself on its English heritage and flavour. It's a city mind you, not a village. (As to Santa Monica, while I'll grant that the pier has an English seaside taste to it, I'd say the beach itself is pure California - not nearly rocky and windswept enough to be English, and the water's actually warm enough to swim in! But perhaps that's my POV showing through.) - Eron ^Talk 05:56, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

"Very relaxing for the traveler weary of the sheer insanity of the lower classes that the rest of America accomodates." Are you seriously serious? Next time you should think more carefully about coming on here and asking Americans for help if you're just going to insult our tolerance of all kinds of people. If you don't want to meet any "lower classes", then maybe you better not come to America at all. Come to think of it, maybe you'd better just stay holed up in your castle in the North of England, far from all forms of civilization, where there always seem to be those pesky people of the lower classes. You'd also better fire your servants, cut off all your plumbing, generate your own electricity, and stop having your garbage taken away, because chances are it's people from the lower classes who work hard to provide you with those conveniences. -- BlastOButter42 ^See Hear _Speak 20:57, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

To be fair, s/he didn't explicitly ask Americans for help and, since s/he wrote in the third person, its not 100% clear from his question that s/he is British. Still, where I live in America certainly doesn't accommodate the lower classes. I wish it did. Rockpocket 21:35, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps Hilton Village in Newport News, Virginia, although I believe is completely residential - i.e. you can't run down the pub for a pint and a chip butty. --LarryMac | Talk 13:21, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

What I'd like to know is if there are any places for an American to feel like home in Europe -- you know, a community of neat, red brick houses behind white picket fences on tree-lined streets surrounding a Main Street with a diner cooking up hamburgers showing American football on the TV next to a town square with a gazebo. -- Mwalcoff 23:03, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm surprised no one has mentioned New England yet. Granted, much of it has the kind of rampant suburban sprawl that the English won't allow, but there are parts of it that have a kind of English urban feel, particularly the old, pre-automobile inner suburbs of Boston. A colleague from the UK was here for meetings and after traveling by taxicab through Cambridge and Somerville, she said she felt as if she hadn't left London. I think that the centers of some of our mill towns, such as Lowell feel much like the similarly depressed old mill towns of Lancashire and Yorkshire. While some of rural New England's town centers do have a bit of an English village feel, they are much less compact than English villages and tend to be surrounded by woods rather than fields. Marco polo 01:11, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Mario hat

What do you call the kind of hat that Mario wears? --Alph Tech STUART 21:48, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I would call that a cap. FiggyBee 23:25, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Love this question. One feels one ought to know. I poked around on the Web and found this. It's called a beretto marinaio (sailor's cap). I don't think that's quite it, though. There's also the beretto piatto (plate cap?) that would look pretty close if you undid the snap I'm guessing holds the crown to the brim. I started by looking for "stonemason hat OR cap", but no dice. It's a kind of beretto, anyway, looks like. --Milkbreath 01:00, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Piatto means "flat". It can also mean "plate", but I think "flat" is the obvious meaning here. --Trovatore 08:59, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

But of course Mario's hat was created by a graphic artist, and may not directly correlate to any actual hat in the real world. It's a blob that looks about right without being too heavy on the polygons. FiggyBee 01:36, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Man in a suit

Is there a name or origin for the iconic cartoon man who meets these descriptions:

• he wears a black pinstripe suit
• the pants have a very low crotch so the inseam only goes up to around the knees
• he walks with extremely long paces, his legs stretching ridiculously between steps
• he walks with his hands in his pockets and swaggers a lot

--ffroth 23:20, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Except for the part about the inseam, it sounds like the Monty Python "Ministry of Silly Walks" sketch. It wasn't a cartoon though and I wouldn't describe it as iconic necessarily. Dismas|^(talk) 01:36, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

No, it's not such much as big steps as slinking low along the ground and swaggering the shoulders a lot. I think he's maybe supposed to be a cartoon mock 1930s gangster.. I think he typically has a cigar. Anyone know what I'm talking about? The inseam thing is the thing I remember most clearly.. I saw someone the other day with that type suit and I thought "that's just like.. that.. that ONE cartoon guy.. uhm.." so that's the main feature and what prompted me to ask --ffroth 02:52, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Zoot suit? —Nricardo 02:56, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

My first thought was of cartoon depictions of Groucho Marx , But you didn't mention a ridiculous mustache which is vital in Groucho depictions.--APL 04:03, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean something like the wolf in Red Hot Riding Hood? [13] risk 11:17, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I've seen this and it was in an old (1930's maybe) cartoon, but can't remember the character's name. The clothing though sounds like a Zoot Suit. Maybe you could check out some old Betty Boop or early Disney cartoons. Astronaut 14:07, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Riff-Raff from Underdog? I don't remember how he walked, and he's a wolf, not a man, but what do you want for free? We got pinstripes and cigar. I'm still looking. --Milkbreath 23:05, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

October 20

Domestic terrorism

In what ways are right wing terror groups bonded together by racism, religion, and anti- governmentalism?12.216.52.81 00:41, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Is there a reason you added this section, then deleted all but a few words? FiggyBee 00:46, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to go out on a limb here and restore the original post, perhaps it was deleted in error? I'm sure if it wasn't 12.216.52.81 will come back and remove it again.--VectorPotential^Talk 01:11, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Your question isn't entirely clear, are the three you list options? Are you asking about bonding between groups or within groups? Within most extremist groups, members are bonded together by exactly that: a shared extreme view that is usually in conflict with an establishment or mainstream view. That can be a shared hatred of certain races or religions, or a shared belief that change in the status quo, that they favour, will only come "through the barrel of a gun". The mechanism of bonding may come from indoctrination, a shared persecution experience, political or social disenfranchisement.

Bonding between groups is less common, particularly when they happen to pursue a similar, but slightly different agenda. By the very nature of extremism, small differences between groups' beliefs can ensure they do not co-operate and even will attack each other. For a time during The Troubles, for example, a number of Republican Irish paramilitary groups (Irish People's Liberation Organisation, Irish National Liberation Army, Provisional Irish Republican Army and Official Irish Republican Army) were kept busy killing each other rather than the British, even though they all had roughly the same goal). However, there was some co-operation between these groups and more disparate para-military groups. The IRA was co-operating with the Palestine Liberation Organization, Hezbollah and FARC. Obviously this example isn't explicitly about right-wing terror groups (most of them would be considered left-wing), but the principle holds. Rockpocket 02:31, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

What's with the title? I thought this would be a question about someone terrorising others in their household and thought that was a funny name for it. DirkvdM 06:29, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I think somebody has to write a school paper. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 09:07, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

The words "common goals", "common ideals", "common beliefs" should give a hint as to the type of things that would or could join them together. As to real links between terror groups (monetary, physical support, cooperation) - obviously I have no idea.87.102.17.46 11:14, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Sexual Urban Legend

I've heard that a sperm cell can cause eye trouble if one got into the human eye. Is that shit true? I've heard it will mistake it for a egg cell. (!) (:O) 65.173.104.140 03:21, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Well depending on how it got there they do say it can make you go blind! ---- WebHamster 10:49, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Although not an expert in this field, nor do I have any personal experience, I'm pretty sure that even if the sperm cell has mistaken the eyeball for an egg cell, it will be biologically impossible for it to fertilize with the eyeball. Acceptable 03:24, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Confirm the previous answer. It is impossible for a sperm to cause any damage to the eye, except if it were carrying some sort of infection that it might, but only might, pass to the eyeball. Anyway, to reduce your fears consider a pair of industrial safety glasses ;-)) Richard Avery 07:36, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

They do say semen stings like hell if it gets in your eyes (can't say I know for sure), that must be the origin of this myth.--Rallette 08:43, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I can confirm this. (But please don't ask for a reference; you just have to trust me on this one). -- JackofOz 01:44, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Define 'trouble' first. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 09:06, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

A sperm cell causes your eye to explode. 65.173.104.140 10:05, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeh, right, and your source?!! Richard Avery 11:14, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm now imagining bukkakke -babies and all the porn stars wearing eye patches--hotclaws 10:25, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

There was a story going round when I was in puberty that the Germans in WWI dropped leaflets on to the British troops telling them that semen in the eye would cause temporary blindness and thus get them out of the firing line for a time. (Also, I suspect, it would get them shot!). But I doubt the veracity of the claim. Still, if true, an interesting piece of propaganda.86.209.153.65 14:06, 20 October 2007 (UTC)petitmichel

Under normal circumstances (whatever that means) it defiantly does not damage your eye. Otherwise this would not exist. --S.dedalus 05:30, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Rush Limbaugh Letter

To those concerned, the letter went for $2.1 MILLION on Ebay. Auction is closed. Was trying to place this news item, only that my Wi-Fi system unit fucked the hell up - again. 65.173.104.140 06:44, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Really? Wow--Phoenix 15 (Talk) 10:54, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Google Ebay, Rush Limaugh and/or Ebay, Rush Limbaugh Letter for more info. In my area, I get the radio show @ 11 am, CDT/CST, Mon-Fri. on the radio's AM band. Go to his website, located on the article concerning Rush Limbaugh to locate a radio station carrying his show. Be warned, if "you're" a US Democrat, a liberal, on the FAR left, this show is not for you. 65.173.104.140 23:42, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Pacific

What is the term for people living on Pacific islands? Surely it can't be "Pacifican". In this particular context it would be impracticle for me to use the name of each place, eg. Fijian, Polynesian etc.--Phoenix 15 (Talk) 10:35, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Pacific Islanders? I have certainly heard of Fijian/Polynesian as groups of people. Though I guess you are meaning more like how we describe people from Europe as either 'European' or their individual nation (African, Asian etc). I guess because Pacific Islander has a wiki that'll be the name. ny156uk 10:48, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. Now I've got another question; What is the term for things from the pacific islands. For example, if someone saw a car that was made in Europe, they would say "That's a European car". If someone saw a car or other object made in the pacific what would they say?--Phoenix 15 (Talk) 11:04, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps Polynesian, Micronesian, or Melanesian, depending on which of the three major island groups and peoples one is talking about? Pfly 15:22, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

But if you had no idea which specific part of the Pacific it was, you might just say "That's a car from some Pacific country/nation". Depending on whom you're talking to, your interlocutor might well respond with "My country has always been pacific, fortunately". Then you'd respond with "I mean some Pacific island country". -- JackofOz 01:42, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

But my island country has always been pacific! FiggyBee 08:58, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

wikilaw

is it illegal to edit wikipedia while drunk? how about if ur high on pot? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.168.107.66 (talk) 11:14, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Of course it isn't. There are no "Laws" on wikipedia. We do have some policies and guidelines however; see here. Of course, no one can be jailed for breaking them but serious breachers may be blocked from editing wikipedia--Phoenix 15 (Talk) 11:29, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

But what if you're wearing a mask? JIP | Talk 12:23, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

By george you're right, this is exactly how it started before :[ Nice catch :D --ffroth 15:48, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Sometimes it is encouraged! - hydnjo talk 19:10, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Editing Under the Influence Rockpocket 19:10, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Damn edit conflicts! Rockpocket 19:11, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Geesh! I don't remember... er, never-mind. - hydnjo talk 20:35, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

moss in tarmac

My backyard is tarmac and in the shade. As a result moss grows rapidly and the only way I can remove it is by using a powerwasher. This is a slow process and I have attempted to find if there is anything I can spray (regularly?) to prevent the moss forming in the first place. (Prevention is better than cure!). I have tried the local garden centres without success. Does anyone out there know of a suitable chemical? Thanks in advance FJLD —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.1.28.33 (talk) 11:21, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I use a product called Pathclear. I don't know what it contains but it's great. You can buy it in sachets to be mixed with water and then sprinkled using a watering can or as a spray gun, for acurate spraying of weeds, moss etc. Once it's used all plants die and nothing can grow for 6-8 months. It's available in Ireland and Great Britain and possibly America. It must be used during dry weather to prevent it being washed into lawns and flower beds.--Phoenix 15 (Talk) 11:41, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

You can also use boiling/very hot water from a kettle to kill unwanted plants. It has the added bonus of not being a chemical, so there are no environmental considerations. Just do be careful with the hot kettle! -- Flyguy649 ^talk 16:06, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

What's not to love about moss? Is it inconveniently slippery? —Tamfang 06:09, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Madaba map (mosaic)

I have read your articles on the mosaic Madaba map in St. George's Greek Orthodox Church in Madaba.

Please, can you tell me who did the mosaics??

You say when it was done but you don't say who did the work... who ordered it done.

I need this information. If you can't help me, please tell me who can ... thank you very much.

(email removed) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.184.86.250 (talk) 19:25, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I've looked and it may be that the persons who did/ordered the work are not recorded..or that that information has been lost in the mists of time.87.102.16.28 09:48, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Legality of Coca leaves in Canada

Just some preliminary research, I'm going on a trip to Peru in a few months and would like to buy some coca leaves to bring back to Canada to chew. Would this (bringing coca leaves) be legal? Thanks. Acceptable 21:29, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Coca leaves are a Schedule I (ie, bad) drug under the Canadian Controlled Drugs and Substances Act. FiggyBee 22:15, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Same thing in the USA. You will end up in jail once you have cleared security and customs in either Canada or the USA when you come back. Security has been really strict since the 9-11 attacks and rumored terrorist attacks that are mentioned on the news outlets. 65.173.104.140 23:59, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Aie :s. Thanks. Acceptable 01:12, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

You can generally bring a few packets of coca tea back with you, but to be honest it's not really that special. Having had a fair number of cups of the stuff while I was there, I'd recommend bringing back a case of Inca Cola and a bottle or two of Pisco instead. Inca Cola's the only thing I really miss about the country, though Irn Bru'll do in a pinch :) GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 01:28, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

October 21

Generals in CF

How many Full Generals (4-stars) are there in the Canadian Armed Forces? I took a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_Council_%28Canada%29 and only the Chairman was a Full General. Acceptable 00:51, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

The Canadian Forces maintains an address book for flag and general officers here: [14]. Looking through the list, I see only two individuals that are full Generals: the aforementioned Rick Hillier (Chief of the Defence Staff), and Ray Henault (former Chief, and current Chair of NATO's Military Committee). Our article on Lieutenant-General (Canada) (3-star General) implies that only Chiefs of the Defence Staff tend to be promoted 4-star rank. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 04:26, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Evolution of computer vs firearms

Why do firearms (portable weapons) evolve (increase in superiority) so much slower than say, computers? With respect to Moore's Law, CPU speed double about every 18 months. If firearms evolved at this rate, then the weapons seen in sci-fi movies would pale in comparison with them. Is it because of a lack of funding? Or has guns already reached near-perfection? Thanks. Acceptable 02:31, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Perfection? I'm not sure what you mean by perfection in relation to firearms. Going back to your question though, how can firearms be improved? Are you thinking of rail guns like in Eraser? Or laser blasters such as in Star Wars or even the phasers of Star Trek? Dismas|^(talk) 02:55, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

By the way, both articles for railgun and coilgun go over some of the hurdles in production that have yet to be jumped. Dismas|^(talk) 03:12, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I see no problem with applying the word 'perfection' to a gun. It surely means simply making as good a gun (for a particular purpose) as possible, both in design and in what we can call craftsmanship, or perhaps quality. I can also see a fine gun as a thing of beauty, just as I can a sword. And yes, I should say the gunsmith's art changes only slowly because the technology of firearms is essentially simple and old-fashioned. Xn4 04:15, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Moore's Law doesn't say CPU speed doubles every 18 months. It says transistor density doubles every two years. A firearm is a a tube, a projectile, and a propellant; what in that is equatable to transistor density on an integrated circuit? FiggyBee 08:55, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Simple answer - firearms can't be minaturised - that's the reason.87.102.16.28 09:45, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Human meat

How would human meat compare to other sorts such as cow? Is it really tender? Tough? Taste weird? Is soylent green the best thing since tacos? Bellum et Pax 04:55, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

It tastes like pork, according to Armin Meiwes. See armin meiwes pork. A.Z. 04:57, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

A bit sweet, I've heard. But that might be about modern humans who eat a lot of refined sugar. (Does that make any sense?) It is also said to be quite addictive, but that may just be scare stories. DirkvdM 09:16, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Schools in an encyclopedia

The question I wish to pose is quite simple. Why are SCHOOLS on a website that is basically an encyclopedia??? You see, just having the school's listed and described in a positive light (ie Tilton School), but DISALLOWING people to post true testimony is in fact one of the largest (in my eyes) violations of the NPOV, or Neutral Point Of View, requirement that is set forth in posting on Wikipedia. Now obviously if you look up say Red Tailed Hawk, thats looking up something physical; something studied. If you look up 'Beaver Dams' then you find postings that are based on factual information. However, I've found two schools that I attended on Wiki, and when I attempted to offer my point of view, (which is obviously expert on the basis that I WENT THERE and experienced it) it was deleted, and without even asking me, the individual said in the comments "personal rant deleted by someone with no affiliation to the school".... So being an Alum, I suppose, bears absolutely no affiliation what-so-ever. So the challenge I pose is this: please explain to me why schools should be in Wikipedia, and if you agree that they should be, please further explain why they should have to follow the NPOV regulation, and why both sides to a story cant be posted. Thankyou.

76.238.87.22 07:10, 21 October 2007 (UTC)Wynn H.

• Someone's 'testimony' is not compatible with Wikipedia's verifiability policy. - Mgm|^(talk) 08:41, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

• In particular, the very fact that you went to that school almost guarantees that you won't have a neutral point of view about it. It will inevitably be slanted by your experience there, whether positively or negatively. And it's not published information, so no go. Sorry. -- JackofOz 09:14, 21 October 2007 (UTC)