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June 24

Coco Chanel

In the second to the last section, there are a couple of statements to the effect that: Coco Chanel was a dangerous serial killer of young fat children. Upon completing the kill, she would eat her victims. When I pulled up the section to edit this obviously false information, the sentences did not appear in the edit window???? Can you see this, and any idea how to fix it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.235.56.191 (talk) 01:03, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

• Just garden variety vandalism; someone else fixed it within a minute, and beat you to it. You can always click on the "history" tab to see what's happened to the article. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 01:07, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

LDS and Jews

As a non-LDS Christian reading Doctrine and Covenants for the first time, I was surprised to see that (if I understand it rightly) male LDS members who are literal descendents of Aaron are automatically qualified for the bishopric. Does this mean that a kohen who becomes LDS will immediately be ordained a bishop? It's not like this would apply to me, if you wonder; my family claims to have Levitical ancestry, but not priestly. 71.182.134.18 (talk) 05:15, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

As far as the LDS is concerned, your ancestry is whatever someone tells you it is in your patriarchal blessing. It may or may not be related to any actual ancestors- it's a "spiritual" thing, not expected to comport with fact. - Nunh-huh 22:29, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Query on Australian culture and Location of Indian restaurants

I am a new student at Australian campus, what are the rules of compliance there? Is it similar to the US , & what are the Indian restaurants for Indian food?

What —Preceding unsigned comment added by Garb wire (talk • contribs) 06:30, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Who what when where and why? Thanks Julia Rossi (talk) 08:41, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

My query pertains to the australian culture Is it similar to the US? Are there good American and Indian restaurants? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Garb wire (talk • contribs) 14:34, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

In answer to your first question, have a look at our article on Culture of Australia. To answer your second question, it might be helpful if you told us where in Australia you are living. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 14:44, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Richard,nothing in that link, explicitly mentions about the living style of aussies and how they perceive asians or about racism....... By the way i am living in Melbourne..... The only thing that caught my eyes in that link was about Fox studios moving to Melbourne......Very keen on knowing their lifestyles Is it similar to the US? 15:44, 24 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Garb wire (talk • contribs)

This question will be hard for us to answer, as it is subjective. How do we compare or quantify racism? If Australian culture is similar in some ways to U.S. culture but different in others, how do we assess how similar it is? Finally, to answer the question, an editor would need a sound knowledge of both Australian and U.S. culture and particularly of racism in each. I am very familiar with U.S. culture but am not Asian and so do not have that experience. I can say that U.S. culture varies enormously from place to place and from ethnic group to ethnic group. In fact, there really is no single U.S. culture. When it comes to racism toward South Asians or other Asians, this too varies enormously from place to place and group to group. So it would be hard to compare the U.S. in this regard to Australia, even if Australian culture and the incidence of racism in Australia is uniform across that country, which I doubt. I will say that I have been involved in a discussion forum for immigrants to Canada. Most of the participants in this forum were of South Asian descent. Some discussions had to do with racism toward South Asians in different countries that attract South Asian immigrants. The consensus on the forum was that Canada was comparable to the United States as a country that welcomes South Asians and that both countries are more welcoming than Australia. Some forum participants had experienced racism in Canada or the United States, but there was some agreement that racism was stronger in Australia. This amounts to OR and is in no way authoritative. Marco polo (talk) 16:05, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

The article on Melbourne describes the city as very multicultural. It has a high Asian population. Tourism in Melbourne lists the locations of some of the ethnic restaurants. Sounds like a great place to eat out. As for the degree of racism experienced by residents, I agree with the above comment. Melbourne might be an easier place to live as an immigrant than some other Australian cities, but there are many subjective factors. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:06, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Certainly in Canberra there are a variety of Indian restaurants, some specialising in North Indian, Urdu, South Indian, Sri Lankan and also Australian/Indian fusion cuisine. There is a vibrant Indian immigrant community here, large enough to sustain two temples for the Hindu community, as well as a lot of Indians who come here just for study at the universities. The same applies to the other major cities, but smaller towns (including university towns like Armidale) won't necessarily have Indian restaurants. Steewi (talk) 01:09, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Some reflections: a friend who lived in both Canada and the States thinks Australians are more similar to Canadians in their cultural "feel" (no gun culture for example) and in some ways, being more English. I don't live in Melbourne so can't help much more except to say it's a hotbed for the arts in all forms – the best comedy by reputation is from Melbourne, the tv rock music show, RocKwiz is set in a Melbourne pub, St Kilda's Esplanade Hotel, drama series such as Wildside and Underbelly) and visiting there my experience was an openness and friendly attitude to newcomers and a mad love of culture in all forms including live performance. The city has a lot of public art with sculpture and mosaics in the streets. Googling Indian eateries and Indian restaurants shows a concentration from St Kilda up through the city northwards. There's one in Lygon Street, a famously Italian area. Racism? It depends on which is the latest group to move in who tends to get a hard time from the others (all OR here), but in respect to racial pride, most groups like to keep themselves and their culture distinct from others. Depending on your university, you have probably discovered the international student groups and possibly accommodation designed for an international mix. For tips on being Indian in Melbourne, there's this forum at IndiaGrid.com[1] and maybe others. I'd be looking at lists of temples too[2] and on the net. Enjoy your stay, Julia Rossi (talk) 01:36, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Saint

I need help identifying a saint. Everything I remember about her:

-name sounded something like Clara
-her husband was murdered
-her two sons were murdered
-her family was feuding with another (thus the murdering)
-she ended the feud, forgiving her family’s murderers
-she lived in either Italy or Spain or possibly Portugal 71.174.16.91 (talk) 09:18, 24 June 2008 (UTC)Charity

Perhaps Rita of Cascia, although her sons were not murdered but died of natural causes. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 10:20, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

That's her! Thank you!71.174.16.91 (talk) 10:38, 24 June 2008 (UTC)Charity

Does Clara sound like Rita? GoingOnTracks (talk) 09:40, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I suppose... Spencer^T♦C 14:56, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

asya

<Moooved to the language desk here[3] where maybe someone can do Tagalog is it? about Asia?Julia Rossi (talk) 11:11, 24 June 2008 (UTC)>

Bold text== India vs china == lobalizatio

India and china are viewed as global emerging giants.... So will India overtake the chinese or will it be the chinese victory over the indians on issues of religion and communal harmony?

Is the globalisation in india restricted to the wealthy and the rich? Does it trickle down to the poor?? 15:47, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

It's very hard to decide now...only time will tell.--Faizaguo (talk) 16:40, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

"Will India overtake the Chinese?" In what respect?

Globalization gets everywhere and does good as well as bad. Xn4 20:24, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I would say yes, India will do better in the long run, because China has many problems that India doesn't have:

1) They have a "demographics bomb" due to their "one family, one child" policy. Eventually (around 2030) all the parents and grandparents will be too old to work, leaving the relatively small population of only (grand)children to support them and their children.

2) They lack democracy. This makes government less responsive to the needs and wants of the people and eventually leads to social disruption, as this is the only way for the public to get their government to act.

3) They face severe pollution problems due to a lack of regulation and booming manufacturing.

4) They face a severe inequality of wealth due to lack of basic protection for workers which allows them to be exploited. Real unions are illegal.

5) They face shortages of fuel due to their increasing manufacturing base. This leads them to do things like support the genocide in Darfur in order to get oil from Sudan. However, such actions as this make them unpopular and can lead to sanctions against them.

India does have some problems, like the trouble with Pakistan over Kashmir and with the Tamils in the South, but China has similar problems in Tibet, with Taiwan, with the murderous government they support in Burma, and with Muslims in the western provinces. StuRat (talk) 21:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

What does lead you to the opinion that problems 1, 3, 4, 5 are absent or significantly less urgent in India? I'll leave aside the question if 2 is a media-produced Western illusion. In particular,

1) is it really better to have children starving or malnourished instead of a population decline?

3) Have a look at Criticism_of_Coca-Cola#Environmental_issues or Bhopal disaster

4) Please see the 2nd paragraph of Child_labor#Recent_child_labor_incidents

5) Who, pray tell, does not face fuel shortages nowadays, except the one country with the reserve currency enabling a disguised inflation?

Finally, from your illusions regarding India, are you perchance a British citizen? --Ayacop (talk) 09:39, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

As far as 1 is concerned I have to agree. India may not have the ageing population problem, but they have an increasing population that cannot be sustainable in the long run. I think it is extremely difficult to say which will do better in the long run, India has a potential population problem and a real water-shortage problem as their green revolution has been based on unsustainable use of ground water. Arguably they are politically more stable, but this could change if there are mass shortages. -- Q Chris (talk) 09:47, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, there already were peasant suicides because even those groundwater pumps couldn't bring up any more stuff. But the groundwater level is sinking in Pakistan---and the U.S., too.

The Republic of India is one of the top twelve nations in the world in terms of biodiversity. Featuring nearly 8% of all recorded species on Earth, this subcontinent is home to 47,000 plant species and 81,000 animal species. Simultaneously, India is home to the largest network of indigenous farmers in the world. Yet biotechnology has led to extreme environmental degradation in the region, threatening to replace its diverse ecology with corporate hybrid monoculture. The original Green Revolution was supposed to save 58 million Indian hectares. Today, 120 million of the 142 million cultivable hectares is degraded- over twice the magnitude that the Green Revolution attempted to save! In the Indian state of Punjab, 84 of the 138 developmental blocks are recorded as having 98% ground water exploitation. The critical limit is 80%. The result has had devastating impacts on the agricultural community, leaving exploited farmers with little choice of action. In the past six years, more than three thousand farmers have committed suicide in Andrha Pradesh, that is six to ten farmers everyday! [4] --Ayacop (talk) 10:30, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

---

The original question appears to assume that the China-India question is a zero-sum game. Try asking, instead, what happens if both succeed in achieving sustainability.

(StuRat provides a quite extensive list of the most negative factors facing China, without actually pointing out that many of them are issues India faces, too. The comment about democracy shows a strongly pro-Western bias; the lack of any recognition that the last 30 years have seen the largest increase in standards of living, for the largest number of people, of any time in human history just confirms that the perspective is what one just might term “one sided.” ) DOR (HK) (talk) 06:32, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

---

Commercial Revolution

Hello...I'm working on the Commercial Revolution article, and there's a question on the Talk Page about the source of this term, and I'm coming up with nothing. Not even a good starting point. Anyone have any ideas? Thanks! Hires an editor (talk) 20:58, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

There's a bit of a problem in that google books reports there's a new Commercial Revolution along every few hundred years: http://books.google.com/books?q=%22Commercial+Revolution%22&btnG=Search+Books but you might try to pin the whole thing on Laurence Bradford Packard who had the temerity to use the The word: The Commercial Revolution, 1400-1776: Mercantilism--Colbert--Adam Smith, 1927 - 105 pages. Of course his date range does not quite match the article's. --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:50, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I've come across that problem, too, since I've seen that it began in the 1200's and that it began in the 1400's and I'm not honestly sure anymore. I'm thinking of my European History text book from high school here, but I'm not sure that's completely authoritative anymore. I'll be heading out to the local college library to see if I can find this book. Thanks! Hires an editor (talk) 02:53, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Fernand Braudel, Civilization and Capitalism, gives good context for Economic history of medieval Europe— admittedly a less snappy title. On a recent read-through the present text didn't seem to be a report of published information but a more of a reflected memory of an American high school. --Wetman (talk) 22:49, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Christopher Columbus's first voyage

Columbus's Letter on the First Voyage to the New World was written on February 15, 1493. It was written to Luis de Santangel covering the narrative of his voyage. A second letter was written to Don Raphael Sanchez whom was the treasurer to king Ferdinand from Aragon. Santangel was king Ferdinand's "finance minister" also from Aragon. Are these definitely two different people with similar titles from the same place at the same time? Columbus's original February 15 letter of Santangel's is basically the same "to Sanchez", except for a postscript at the end that is dated March 14, 1493. I can find material on Santangel, however can not find material on Sanchez. Here on page 375 of this reference it says that Columbus immediately first writes a letter to "the magnificent Don Raphel Sanchez", which appears to be this second person. It would seem he would write first to Santangel (and perhaps he did) since this is the person that was able to get the financing for him. Two persons? What is this title "Don" as otherwise he is always referred to as just "Raphel Sanchez"? Is there additional reference information on "Raphel Sanchez"? --Doug ^talk 21:56, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

According to the last footnote in this, it may have been a translators error. Fribbler (talk) 22:07, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

That is an excellent lead on perhaps solving this issue. The way I understnad it then based on this evidence is in fact these are one and the same person? Treasurer = "finance minister"? The Spanish version giving the name "Santangel" and the Latin giving the name "Sanchez" for the same person. Would that be correct? --Doug ^talk 22:41, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

The way I read it, it seems there were two posts. One "finance minister" (Santangel) and one "treasurer" (Sanchez). When the translator seen that the message was addressed to the finance minister he confused it with the post of treasurer and added Sanchez's name. I could be totally off here, so I hope someone else reads the footnote.Fribbler (talk) 22:52, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

The news of the first voyage spread throughout Europe with enormous speed, largely by means of the so-called Letter to Luis de Santángel...There are several problems associated with the Santángel letter, not the least of which is the fact that Santángel's name does not appear anywhere on the document. The opening salutation is simply "Señor", and the printer's colophon merely states that the letter was sent by Columbus "al escriuano de ración" (i.e., Luis de Santángel) and that it was "contenida a otra de Sus Altezas". The Latin version interprets the holder of this post as Gabriel (or Rafael) Sánchez. It has been argued that Columbus must have sent two letters, one to Santángel and another to Sánchez, but since the texts are virtually identical (allowing for the translation), and since Columbus was deeply indebted to Santángel but not otherwise known to have had any contact with Sánchez, we can assume that Sánchez's name appeared in the Latin letter in error. Ife, B. W. (1993) Breaking the News: Columbus's Letters of 1493. Romance Quarterly, 40(2), 70-1.

—eric 03:13, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

According to M.Hirsch Goldberg's book "The Jewish Connection" (Shapolsky: New York, 1986) p.112, "Of the 120 men on Columbus's three ships on the first voyage, 5 crew members are generally identified as Jews: Rodrego Sanchez of Sergovia, a relative of Gabriel Sanchez who was probably sent along to oversee the investment...." Simonschaim (talk) 07:18, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Three-armed swastika - Neo Nazi flag?

This is a link to a picture of something bearing similarity to a Nazi flag. It's from the BBC website as you can tell. What's with the symbol? Where can I find out about this design and its origins? --78.150.161.93 (talk) 22:21, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

triskelion - Nunh-huh 22:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Close. See Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 22:31, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

It's not a matter of "close", but of whether he's curious about the symbol (as asked) or the flag (as you inferred). - Nunh-huh 22:33, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

The symbol on the Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging flag is clearly a form of triskelion. Xn4 22:55, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

An intentional white supremacist echo of the Nazi flag, differentiated just enough to fly it in public, IMHO. Compare the unconnected triskelion. --Wetman (talk) 23:39, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Since it's the BBC, is this perhaps neo-Nazis or white supremacists in the Isle of Man? Nyttend (talk) 21:35, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

No, "[[Saith Iffrica". --Wetman (talk) 22:42, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

June 25

Existentialism is a Humanism

Could anyone explain what Sartre is getting at when he says that man, "in choosing for himself he chooses for all men." I don't understand how it could be said that my choice is a dictum, so to speak; that what I do necessarily affirms the superiority or desirability of it. Am I taking him too literally? I can see how my choice might be a tacit distinction of its inherent superiority, but doesn't that seem a little arrogant? Doesn't what Sartre is saying make it impossible just to let other people alone in their freedom--why does my freedom have to impose anything on them? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.73.103.253 (talk) 03:24, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Is that the same as John Donne's idea: No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. – after saying the bell tolls for you if you think it does? Seeing it as a dictum is one point of view, another is the ripple effect; not necessarily a hierarchical thing – and contrarily, everyone is his/her own centre at the same time. They are choosing even while you are choosing and being chosen for. You could also say then, that people may be in their freedom (whatever that is), but not alone in it. Julia Rossi (talk) 13:19, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I read it this way: If god exists, then by choosing something, he thereby grants it value. If god existed, and he was a communist, or married, then communism or marriage would be the best thing. That's where they derive their value. But, since god doesn't exist, the only value that a choice has derives from being chosen by me. I realize, then, my deep responsibility every time I choose, and that in choosing for myself, I'm imparting the only value a thing has. I'm thereby giving it value, not just for myself, but also for the thing (in the same way that god would be making the thing valuable, if he existed). Since I'm putting value in the thing, I should remember the effects that my choices and actions have on others, every time I choose.

That's my reading, anyway, and I would certainly also appreciate hearing others' thoughts on the matter. I asked a similar question once, but clio told me to go read Being and Nothingness. Hardly helpful. Llamabr (talk) 15:28, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Consider the opposite - suppose we 'choose for others' - ie an attempt to define others - this belittles their freedom if we believe that the thing most in touch with a things destiny is the thing itself.

So with a sense of finality I could say that by choosing for ourselfs/choosing ourselfs we allow others to do the same - giving them the freedom to their own destiny.. No idea if this was what satre meant.87.102.86.73 (talk) 19:51, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Sartre was certainly not trying to restrict the freedom on others to define themselves through their choices. I wouldn't read him as saying that when I choose, others better do as I do. Rather, we all feel this responsibility when choosing. So, it's not a freedom limiting philosophy, but rather one that challenges each of us to confront our total and complete freedom. Or, as I say, that's my reading. Llamabr (talk) 21:37, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I think it echoes Kants categorical imperative: Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law. Obviously Sartre doesn't dig on the whole universal law deal, but "in choosing for all men" I believe he means the choices we make should be the kind of choices that we think would be right--under those circumstances--for anyone to make, and not to treat ourselves as exceptions. We must hold ourselves to the same standard that we hold others, and so the choices that we make should be the same choices we would hope others to make in our shoes. --Shaggorama (talk) 01:37, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Zimbabwe

Why is Zimbabwe in such a media spotlight right now? I realize that there's all this hubbub over the election of Mugabe and such but it's not like this is the first thing to ever be controversial in Africa or Zimbabwe. Is there some key component that I'm just missing? Something that has just lit up the media the way something else in some other African country couldn't? Dismas|^(talk) 08:20, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

The country has been heading downhill fast for probably near a decade now. The history has Mr. Mugabe, a Communist, performing recollectivizations. This involved taking land from many of the white farmers, mostly meeting them out to cronies in his own party (and even when not, giving it to people who couldn't work the land). This caused massive food shortages in a country that used to be at the front of Africa, literally starving thousands, and displaced millions. Inflation has quite literally hit numbers in the range of 10,000,000% per year. It was naturally quite unpopular.

To boot, Mr. Mugabe and his party was in power via strong armed tactics, including falsifying elections, beating up and killing opponents, arresting journalists who dissented, creating arbitrary laws, etc. The situation has been around for a while, but it has slowly gained momentum as more of the Western press has covered it.

The thing that's really brought this into the mainstream was a recent election, where Mr. Mugabe had the lack of wisdom to actually post the poll results from each voting location, convinced he would win. He didn't, and he lost so badly that even a runoff probably wasn't necessary, but the government fudged the figures a little until it was. The government has frequently arrested and beat up the opposition leader with no justification, and killed his followers.

In short, a) the abuse is in an election, which got the press's attention because it was a fraud which absolutely no one could deny, b) it's been going on for a while, and gained some momentum, and c) the abuse and poverty in the country has gotten considerably worse.

As for why this particular country is being noticed: in fact, it's being noticed much less than it would if it were in other parts of the world, by my analysis. However, Africa is changing, and it's not as easy to get away with obvious dictatorship as it used to be, especially when it so thoroughly destroys one of the best economies in the region. The Evil Spartan (talk) 08:43, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I disagree in part with your analysis, Spartan. Certainly Mugabe is an absolutely terrible leader, but that is not why Zimbabwe is so prominently in the news. Compare for example the case of Hosni Mubarak, the president of Egypt; virtually all the criticisms of Mugabe apply to Mubarak - economic mismanagement, corruption, strong armed tactics, throwing political opponents in jail, arbitrary laws etc. Yet when Mubarak staged fake elections a few years back and jailed Ayman Nour for having the audacity to run against him, the outrage in the West was not at all comparable to what we see now (even though, in general, the Western press is far more interested in the Middle East than in sub-saharan Africa). The reason is that Mubarak is our ally, while Mugabe attempts to defy Western influence. 194.171.56.13 (talk) 11:53, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Two other reasons for the prominence of Zimbabwe in the news are that 1) the country started out in such a promising direction when it gained majority rule in 1980, and 2) Zimbabwe was something of a model for South Africa when South Africa achieved majority rule under the ANC in 1994, and Zimbabwe's ruler, Mugabe, still seems to enjoy the support of South Africa's ruler, Mbeki. When Zimbabwe achieved majority rule, its ruling party adopted a policy of racial reconciliation and tolerance for the white minority and, to some extent, for the political opposition. Zimbabwe's economy was thriving, and it seemed to be a beacon of hope for the rest of Africa, particularly South Africa. However, as the years have gone by, the ruling party has abandoned this tolerance, ruined the country's economy, and become increasingly ruthless in its efforts to monopolize power. The country is in the news because of its horrific and tragic fall from grace. Few other countries have gone so quickly from being a shining model to being an utter hellhole. To a lesser extent, the country may be in the news because it was a model for South Africa, which seems to have followed in its footsteps. Also, its troubles are spilling over into South Africa because so many Zimbabweans have become refugees in South Africa, and the growth in their numbers helped to spark the recent riots there. Furthermore, South African president Thabo Mbeki's support for Zimbabwe's Mugabe is an ominous sign for the future of South Africa, the latest beacon of hope for the continent. Marco polo (talk) 13:46, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

@194.171.56.13: while the "ally" factor certainly plays a large part, one must not forget that Mubarek might have cheated, but the level of the crime was significantly less. The economic downturn in Zimbabwe has been spectacular, while anything in Egypt cannot even compare. And, of course, Mubarek has mostly refrained from killing his opponents, at least that we know of. I think you will fine newspapers worldwide will mostly agree with this analysis: even the newspapers in SA are harshly critical of Mugabe. The Evil Spartan (talk) 19:47, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I see. Thank you all for your responses. Dismas|^(talk) 19:49, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

What's the connection between Mbeki and Mugabe then, that the support should be there at all? Julia Rossi (talk) 04:26, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Commentary on BBC Radio 4 yesterday put it down largely to an imbalance in revolutionary credentials. Mugabe had - and has - an unrivalled status as a freedom fighter against colonial oppression amongst African leaders, and the commentator speculated that this dissuaded Mbeki from open criticism, because that might lead to a backlash which would undermine his own position. One quote (if I recall it correctly) was "Mugabe went to jail for 10 years. Mbeki went to... Sussex University." --Karenjc 23:17, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Diversity and discrimination

Imagine that you have a team of say young people and want to hire an extra person. You know that if you hire an older employee, he will probably not fit and you want everyone to feel ok in your company. Is the preference for a young employee in such situation a form of discrimination? The example could also be adapted to other categories. GoingOnTracks (talk) 09:55, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes it is discrimination, and in many countries it is illegal. -- Q Chris (talk) 10:00, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

The United States has a concept of bona fide occupational qualifications, which can be used to make hiring selections that would otherwise be discriminatory, and other countries often have similar concepts. It's difficult to see how requiring an employee to be sufficiently hip would qualify as such, though age can be a permissible BFOQ. — Lomn 13:09, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Disqualifying a person because he or she is too old to "fit" with the team is no different from disqualifying a person because his or her racial background would not "fit." While members of the team are free to exclude the older person from drinking excursions after work (which the older person probably wouldn't want to attend anyway), there is no reason why they can't interact in a professional way with the older person at work. If the team would nonetheless be uncomfortable with the older person at work, then it is a matter of simple prejudice, not much different from racial prejudice, which in the United States is illegal as a basis for hiring decisions. Marco polo (talk) 13:31, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

• This question and answers makes me think about an additional question: does disqualifying a candidate just based in gut feeling a legitimate criterion? Any candidate is either black or white or male or old or young or married or single ... But suppose that the employer don't care about this things and trust his own guts. Does the law contemplate such cases? 80.58.205.37 (talk) 17:16, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

If you're running a business or running for political office you can disqualify a candidate based on whatever you want. Just don't tell anybody you didn't like his tattoo. Mac Davis (talk) 17:31, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Due to being completely subjective, a gut feeling can't (legally) qualify as a valid reason for anything, employment included. A disqualification based on gut feeling is therefore not due to prejudice or discrimination of the person itself and its characteristics, but due to a subjective sentiment, which is basically just like saying you fired someone because you didn't like them, for no apparent (valid) reason. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ishtar Dark (talk • contribs) 17:34, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Apparently not liking somebody is different from not liking a woman, a black man, or an old person. Mac Davis (talk) 17:39, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand. What didn't you like about Ishtar's explanation? I understood it as: a gut feeling won't be an acceptable argument if the ex-employee tried to take legal action against you and it applies to anyone. Did you perhaps miss the "not"? Zain Ebrahim (talk) 18:26, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

In any case, it's also worth pointing out it cuts both ways. Not liking a man because he's a man is the same as not liking a woman because she's a woman. Not liking a white man because he's white is the same as not liking a black man because he's black. Not liking an old person because he or she is old, is the same as not liking a young person because he or she is young. All of these are examples of prejudice or discrimination. (People often seem to miss this in arguments since they suggest minorities or women are protected classes but discrimination for race/gender applies whatever the race or gender). Nil Einne (talk) 03:36, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe that firing someone without reason is the same as not hiring someone without reason. You don't have to provide any explanation about why you didn't do anything, just why you did something. As Mac Davis pointed above: go on with your gut feeling is OK, just don't tell why you met this decision, since it can be always construed as discriminatory since it could be a characteristic of a protected class. 80.58.205.37 (talk) 11:19, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

If you are hiring people for your small business you'll probably get away with it. Just hiring people you come fine along with is perhaps a legit way of making things work. However, if you are a HR manager for a corporation, what sense does it make not hiring people that you don't like? Possibly others will like this people and they can be useful for the company. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr.K. (talk • contribs) 12:25, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

June 26

Tomari and Shuri

Together with the martial arts styles of Tomari and Shuri it formed the basis for Okinawa-te, which in turn is the origin of today's karate-do.

— http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naha%2C_Okinawa#Martial_arts

Tomari and Shuri are cities. What are they talking about?68.148.164.166 (talk) 00:33, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm reading it that particular styles of martial arts were associated with & hence known by the name of particular towns; and more recently a mix of three specific styles formed Okinawa-te. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

How many Indo-Canadians in Great Britian?

Hi. There are some Indo-Canadians who are living and working in United Kingdom. Does anyone know how many Canadian citizens of South Asian/Indian descent who are currently living in Britian? An information link will be great. Thanks. Sonic99 (talk) 01:59, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

You won't find this published anywhere. In principle it could be calculated from the 2001 Census, but you would have to put in a query to the Office for National Statistics and say why you needed the information. And even then it would only be true for 2001. The best way to do an estimate is to find out how many Canadian citizens are living in the UK, then find out from Canadian statistics what proportion of Canadians are of South Asian descent. This would assume that Canadians of all ethnic backgrounds are equally likely to come to the UK to work, which may not be a valid assumption, but it might yield a good enough estimate for whatever purpose you are interested in. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:08, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Census 2001 data would be of no use, since its ethnicity categorisation does not go down to such an obscure level. --Tagishsimon (talk) 14:14, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

No, the ethnicity categories don't but nationality was asked. Anyway it is not in the published tables and the OP is going to have difficulty making more than a very rough estimate. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:19, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

People of South Asian descent comprise approximately 4% of the Canadian population (see Demographics of Canada#Visible minorities) and Canadians in the United Kingdom number around 70,000. At a rough guess, I would say perhaps there are 2,800 Indo-Canadians are in United Kingdom if, like Itsmejudith said, Canadians of all ethnic backgrounds are equally likely to come to the UK. Astronaut (talk) 23:12, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Italian language

I was wondering about the Disney film / story of Pinocchio in which two of the main characters are named Pinocchio and Geppetto. (spelling?) Do those words have any literal meaning in Italian (or any language)? Or are they some sort of "play-on-words" in Italian (or any language)? They seem like they are either real words or play-on-words, as they are rather odd character names. Does anyone know? Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:45, 26 June 2008 (UTC))

The The Adventures of Pinocchio page says: "Pinocchio is from Latin pīnus, "pine" (Italian pino), and the diminutive suffix -uculum (Italian -occhio)." That page also discounts the theory given on the Pinocchio page, that the name means "pine eye". The Adventures of Pinocchio page also says ""Geppetto" is a nickname for Giuseppe." Pfly (talk) 05:09, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. So his name means, literally, "small pinewood" ... or, figuratively, "little boy made from pinewood" then ...? (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 11:08, 26 June 2008 (UTC))

TV coverage of criminal cases

I was surprised this morning that I was able to watch video of the verdict being handed down in the Entwistle murder case. Then I remembered that the OJ Simpson murder trial was also broadcast on TV. In the UK, TV cameras (and photography and audio recording, for that matter) are not allowed in courtrooms. What are the rules in the USA, and elsewhere, regarding the recording of criminal trials? Does it vary from state to state and by the type of court? --Richardrj ^{talk email} 09:06, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it varies. Each state has its own rules. Even within a state that allows cameras, each judge can allow/disallow them in his court in any given trial. The general trend is to open the courts more freely and provide more public, open access and more transparency ... and thus, the trend is more toward allowing the cameras in. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 11:12, 26 June 2008 (UTC))

Thanks for that. I'm not at all convinced, however, that allowing cameras into courtrooms brings more access and transparency. Courtrooms already have public galleries and journalists are allowed to report freely on cases (unless reporting restrictions are imposed for some legal reason). I have the feeling that broadcasting courtroom proceedings brings in an uncomfortable element of "justice as entertainment", maybe even trivialization. Is there a Wikipedia article on this subject? I can't find one. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 11:21, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't follow you. (1) Wouldn't allowing more (or all) of the public (i.e., millions of people into a limited size courtroom with only xx seats) via camera be the very definition of greater public access and greater transparency? And (2) A reporter comes with inherent bias and human error ... not only in what he reports, but also in what he chooses to report. A camera "tells no lies" and simply offers the facts, without any attached bias. No? Whether the viewing public views this as entertainment is a whole separate issue. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 12:57, 26 June 2008 (UTC))

A camera "tells no lies" = the very definition of naive. You should perhaps acquaint yourself with the dark art of the television editorial process. If you anticipate that television will have a nil or solely positive effect on the participants at the trial, I think you'll be sorely disappointed. --Tagishsimon (talk) 13:10, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Having searched, I think there is not an article along the lines of Impact of television on the judicial process or Television and the judicial process. It's certainly an area tha5t has been studied academically and by governments and judiciaries, so there's no lack of source material. IIRC, Scotland was considering the matter only very recently - last month or two. Ah: "TV cameras have been allowed in Scottish courts under strict supervision since 1992." according to [5]. --Tagishsimon (talk) 11:33, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes indeed. Under Scots law, it is up to the sherrif or judge in question to decide if cameras are allowable. They have almost never agreed to their inclusion.--NeoNerd 22:10, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Mixed black/white Arab

Hi there, I know this question had been asked before but I want to know the question. Why black people and white people have mulatto children while their Arab counterpart doesn't have mulatto children? Does it have to do with Religion or something else? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.52.30 (talk) 15:46, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge, "mulatto" is a defined term which refers only to the offspring of one white and one black parent, and then to succeeding generations. The word "mulatto" indicates the child is of a specific mixed-race parentage. (I understand that "race" here is an awkward concept. If someone has a more explicit term that will help the questioner, please feel free to use it here.) There are mixed-race childern, one of whose parents is Arabic, undoubtedly. (I know one personally whose father is a Palestinian and whose mother is Italian.) I just don't know what term there is for this specific mix. I suspect you can safely assume that there are children from almost any mix somewhere in the world. While a strong religious background, where the religion only admits members of a single "race", might keep some people from breeding outside their religious group, even that is no insurance. And certainly that fact that while many Arabs are Muslims, not all of them are, and not all Muslims are Arabs. What limitations exist are more likely to be ones of opportunity than of religion. ៛ Bielle (talk) 17:07, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

At least in the U.S. Census and related matters, Arabs are considered white. So the question doesn't arise. Rmhermen (talk) 19:23, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

The importance of US Census designations notwithstanding (and here [6]is a link for that information), I am not sure that is true worldwide. If the questioner is talking about the US, it may be the answer to the question. "Mulatto" is not a designation in the Census either, which confuses the issue. ៛ Bielle (talk) 21:11, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

"Mulatto" has a quaint ring to it. I was once informed by a man from New Orleans that he was "octoroon"! I told him that I knew the term from old books but had never heard it spoken. (Privately I also thought he'd never pass for black in New York!) --Wetman (talk) 23:07, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Only white-people town in US

I know this question may sound challenging but out of curiosity, is there a place in US where it is dominated inhabited by white people? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.52.30 (talk) 15:49, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

There are lots of small towns in certain parts of the country that are all, or nearly all, white. For example,Summerhill, PA, which I drive through every morning, lists 1 Asian person and the rest white, in the census count. If I kept looking up other nearby towns, I could probably find one that's 100% white. If you require larger towns, then of course it will be harder to find somewhere that's completely white. (I hope, of course, that this isn't part of your "where should I move" selection process...) -- Coneslayer (talk) 15:57, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I remember reading a section about this in The Largest U.S. Cities Named After a Foodand Other Mind-Boggling Geography Lists from Around the World by Brandt Maxwell, that listed cities with a 20,000+ population with the most whites, blacks, hispanics, asians, etc. I don't have the book, but I remember that it's in Chapter 6. Spencer^T♦C 20:50, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Slope County, North Dakota had 767 people in 2000, 765 of them white: [7]. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 21:46, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

---

There were Sundown towns... AnonMoos (talk) 22:56, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

There are small towns in the southern U.S. which drove all Negros out in the early 20th century, and which to the present day have no Black residents. Edison (talk) 04:06, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

There are doubtless some towns which once had the "sundown sign" publicly displayed, and which had a history of lynching or other racial violence toward those who did not comply, and which today have no sign and no Blacks in residence, since no one has tested the waters. Edison (talk) 12:38, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

The 2000 US census [8] seems to contain data for every town, including small hamlets. Is someone clever enough with databases to do a search of it and find the largest US cities with a majority of white people and no African Americans? I would include in this towns with white people, people self reported "mixed race," Native Americans, Asians, Pacific Islanders, etc. I found some such with over 2,000 population, and 99.8% white, and no reported African Americans. but there are likely to be larger. In "sundown towns" there would not even be black maids living overnight. Edison (talk) 16:02, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I found the book above and it said Kiryas Joel, New York is the most populous town with 99+% of the town being white. Other towns with a population above 5,000 with 99+% of the town being white are Old Forge, Lackawanna County, Pennsylvania, Longboat Key, Florida, Wolfeboro, New Hampshire, Pana, Illinois, Swoyersville, Pennsylvania, and Monticello, Illinois. Spencer^T♦C 22:34, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Anonymous witness

How is the defense harmed by allowing testimony by anonymous witnesses? Are measures in place to stop innocent people being convicted? --89.240.243.45 (talk) 16:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

This matter was recently the subject of a ruling by the Law Lords in England; see here. From the report: "The Law Lords said no conviction should be based 'solely or to a decisive extent upon the statements and testimony of anonymous witnesses' - and defendants had the right to confront their accusers. This had been a principle of English law since the abolition of the medieval star chamber, a secret court, and the infamous trial of Sir Walter Raleigh, said the Lords." --Richardrj ^{talk email} 16:14, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

And to provide an example of "how is the defense harmed", lack of knowledge of the accuser diminishes the opportunity to investigate possible motivates the accuser might have to perjure themselves, and which could be used to cast doubt on their testimony. --Tagishsimon (talk) 21:57, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

In my experience, anonymous evidence is trash, more often than not. It's no surprise at all that the British police want to be able to rely on it, nor that Harriet Harman has suggested changing the law to enable them to do so. The comment attributed to her, "We must ensure it is not such an ordeal for victims and witnesses that they dare not step forward", is all too typical of New Labour's approach to such matters. In exceptional circumstances, there might be a case for hearing from an anonymous witness, and we shouldn't perhaps rule out the possibility altogether, but we might ask ourselves what the police and Harriet Harman would say to the suggestion that the defence should be allowed to use anonymous evidence. Anyone with any experience of such matters knows that in almost all criminal trials (and in almost all civil litigation, too) someone is lying. Usually, it isn't the police, but they rarely present the whole truth. Give them anonymity for their witnesses, and they would be in clover. Xn4 19:00, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Christopher Columbus's Fourth voyage

According to the Fourth voyage of the Christopher Columbus article it points out Columbus and his men were stranded on Jamaica in 1503. It goes on to say that Columbus, in a desperate effort to induce the natives to continue provisioning him and his hungry men, successfully intimidated the natives by correctly predicting a lunar eclipse for February 29, 1504, using the Ephemeris of the German astronomer Regiomontanus. However, this website points out that it was the tables of Abraham Zacuto. This article says it was Zacuto's son that was with Columbus that advised Columbus to use the tables in the moment of need. Which is correct? --Doug ^talk 21:48, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

You'll only be able to get to the bottom of this if there are good contemporary sources. I see our article cites Regiomontanus from Samuel Eliot Morison's Christopher Columbus, Mariner (1955), pp. 184-92. Morison was a respected scholar, and on the face of it he's more likely to be right than a web site devoted to Zacuto, but if I were you I should take a look at Christopher Columbus, Mariner, and see what's there. Xn4 18:18, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I see your point on a website devoted to Zacuto. I have come across this also from Famous First Facts in their item 2287 on page 109 as they say Columbus had in his possession an almanac, written by the Spanish Jewish astronomer Abraham Zacuto, that contained astronomical tables from which he was able to calculate the time of the eclipse. Yes, Morison is a respected scholar. Your advice is the correct thing to do to follow up on this. Thanks! --Doug ^talk 21:34, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

According to M.Hirsch Goldberg's book "The Jewish Connection" (Shapolsky: New York, 1986) p.90: "Columbus used Zacuto's accurate prediction of a moon eclipse to frighten the local populace into supplying critically needed food. Columbus's copy of Zacuto's tables, with notes by the explorer himself, is preserved today in Seville." Some details of Zacuto's life as brought in Hirsch's book: Abraham ben Samuel Zacuto was born in 1450 and died about 1525. He was a Jewish astronomer and Rabbinical scholar who compiled tables used as navigational guides by Columbus, Vasco de Gama and others. He was also a professor af astronomy at the universities of Salamanca and Saragossa and wrote an important work on the stars that was translated into Spanish and Latim. When Spain expelled its Jews, Zacuto travelled to Portugal, where he became the Royal Astronomer. Later he had to flee to Tunis where he wrote a history of the Jews entitled Sefer Hayuchasin. Simonschaim (talk) 19:38, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your answers on Columbus. --Doug ^talk 09:42, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Public Domain Poetry

Greetings giant minds! If I find a work of poetry in its entirety in Wikisource or Gutenberg (e.g. The Waste Land) can I assume that the work is in the public domain? What are the restrictions on using works in the public domain? Thank you! Sappysap (talk) 22:28, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you can, unless specified. There are no legal restrictions to public domain works, you can basically do whatever to them. I think restrictions may apply for countries outside the US though. bibliomaniac15 22:41, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

(ec)Wikisource & Gutenberg both work under US law; what is PD in the US may not be PD in all jurisdications (although in most cases it is). There is nothing, from a copyright perspective, preventing you doing anything you wish with the text.

But there are also moral rights attached to the textual works of others, in addition to any question of copyrighted versus public domain. Such rights are not entirely extinguished at death. You should not mistake PD text for text that can be plagiarised and passed off as your own. You should ideally cite its source when using it. There's a current debate on this aspect of the use of PD text at Wikipedia talk:Plagiarism, for the reason that wikipedia policy in this area is being drafted at Wikipedia:Plagiarism. If interested, reading those pages might be as good source of opinion. --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:46, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

The Waste Land will not come out of copyright in the EU until 2035, since copyright lasts for 70 years after the death of the author. 80.254.147.52 (talk) 14:53, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Employment in the USA

What are the highest paid and in demand careers in the U.S.? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.58.144.201 (talk) 23:11, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Highest paid are executives, CEOs, and politicians (all very lawyer-related). They are not in demand though. Strippers are in demand and can pay a lot if you work in the proper area. -- kainaw™ 01:35, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Politicians? Honestly? The most successful professional sportsmen are also among the highest paid, as are actors and musicians. Doctors and those high-up in the medical profession are well paid, as are judges too —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.221.133.226 (talk) 09:27, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

First, nurses are very in demand. Second, 194.221, the original poster asked by careers so I suspect actors/actresses would not be near the top given the huge variance in their income. Another in-demand career involves extremely mathematically inclined people in the financial services industry (so running models for investments like stocks and such).--droptone (talk) 12:19, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

You may find it helpful to poke around the Department of Labor's Occupational Employment Statistics page here, as well as this page. Several Times (talk) 15:11, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Arabic speakers and translators in general are in demand. Wrad (talk) 17:50, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

It would help to have some parameters. Would you consider a $100 million bonus to an investment banker or hedge fund manager to be a sufficient answer, or should it only be people with jobs that most of us might aspire to? DOR (HK) (talk) 06:35, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

If you like golf, being caddy for leading golfers can be highly paid (see Tiger Woods' caddy, Steve Williams. Julia Rossi (talk) 08:14, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

June 27

When was the last time the UK Labour Party finished 5th (or worse) in a By-election?

Which they just have in the Henley by-election, 2008. Willy turner (talk) 01:23, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

The last time it happened to one of the (current) major political parties was 1976 - but as this blog (http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/06/henley_analysis.html) points out that was neither labour, nor was it at a time when the Liberals were doing very well. I suspect you'll hear about it via that Guardian-blog during the day if you keep checking it, but otherwise i'm not sure. But it's a long time ago. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.221.133.226 (talk) 09:25, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I'll hazard a guess that it's never happened before. Perhaps the Daily Telegraph will have the answer for us in a day or two. Xn4 17:58, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Newsnight just said that if anyone knows the last time it happened "could they please let us know". Bearing in mind they will have had a team of researchers who had all day to find out, I presume this means it's never happened before. Perhaps when the Labour party had just been founded? Willy turner (talk) 21:44, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

The Labour Movement had some pretty disastrous showings at elections. However, they were the movement which preceded the actual Labour Party, so I doubt that they've ever done this badly.--NeoNerd 22:07, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

The question's about the Labour Party. Going back to its early years (let's say from 1900 to 1920) it didn't fight every constituency, nor even every by-election. Indeed, to see five candidates at a by-election before the Second World War would have been unusual. Xn4 00:31, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Korean War deaths

What estimates are there of total Korean deaths during the Korean War (the article does not appear to be helpful AFAICT, listing only "millions" as the number of civilian deaths)? This site appears to give a rundown of several estimates, are there any others, and how does the reliability of the various sources compare? How does this compare to the population of Korea before the war? --58.28.72.2 (talk) 04:45, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

This site lists total Korean population in 1950 to be 30,316,911 (North at 9,471,140 and South at 20,845,771).--droptone (talk) 12:28, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

sorry Coudlnt' get an anwsoer on entertainment

Is 大戲, or Cantonese opera, in A flat Major?68.148.164.166 (talk) 05:32, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I know that I saw this question with at least one answer attached to it, perhaps on the entertainment desk. The short answer was No, since it uses a different scale. Several Times (talk) 15:04, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Geography

What are the differences and similarities between fold and block mountains? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Invisiblebug590 (talk • contribs) 07:09, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Have you read our articles on fold mountains and fault-block mountains? They are fairly clear.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 07:38, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Poverty

I'm trying to find stats on poverty/homelessness in Boston. Has it been declining or rising? And how does it rank against other US cities? Please link sources. Thank you. 71.174.16.91 (talk) 14:27, 27 June 2008 (UTC)Sola

Here's a little something: a 2006 article about homelessness in Boston. Fribbler (talk) 14:33, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Novel written by a female American Indian

Maybe 10 to 12 years ago a book was written by a female American Indian that described how she died, but came back to life, and how beautiful the experience was. My wife is going batty trying to remembere the name of this true story. Can you help? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.3.135.130 (talk) 16:10, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

How does the story Roweena Teena and Tot and the Runaway Turkey end?

I am trying to find out the storyline from a favorite childhood book, Roweena Teena and Tot and the Runaway Turkey, written by Fannie Blumberg in 1936. I would love to find a copy to buy at a reasonable price as well. 71.170.2.44 (talk) 16:13, 27 June 2008 (UTC)JaneDianne

Can't find the ending but you can buy it here. It's not cheap, as it's an antique book at this stage. Fribbler (talk) 16:17, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Barrack Obama

Did Barrack Obama ever have the Engish name Harry and it was later changed to Barrack Hussein?

It was in an emailed editorial I received this week, and I don't know the reliabilty of the source.MLK1330 (talk) 17:47, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

He was known by the nickname "Barry" as a child... AnonMoos (talk) 18:59, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

As AM says, he went by "Barry" for a while, but it is certainly not the case that he gave himself the middle name "Hussein". I get the impression he's wanted to be prez his whole life, so he probably would have chosen something more like "Jefferson". --Sean 19:11, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

He inherited the given name "Barack Hussein" from his father. --Allen (talk) 19:13, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Be aware that anybody who is trying to get you to decide the next leader of the country based on their name is deliberately trying to avoid rational argument with you, and is hoping that you'll go along with the most basest of prejudices, avoiding all real issues. It is no different than someone saying "Don't vote for McCain because he has an Irish name, and thus he probably will do whatever the Pope says." Total nonsense, and a purposeful attempt to hoodwink you. Be suspicious—have a GOOD reason for picking your candidate, whoever you pick. This stuff is important. --74.223.170.187 (talk) 02:17, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

People can't be blamed for the names that were given to them, but on the other hand, Gary Hart raised suspicions among some over the fact that he changed his name from "Hartpence" at age 25-26... AnonMoos (talk) 03:45, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Why would that raise suspicions? He just did it because he didn't like the sound of his surname. And fair enough. If I had a surname like "Hartpence", I'd probably be tempted to change it too. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 06:38, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

For a number of people who thought Gary Hart was shallow and slick, his changing his name and then sort of trying to conceal it confirmed their views of him... AnonMoos (talk) 21:50, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Hartpence isn't that bad. Imagine if Hal Linden had gone into politics. --NellieBly (talk) 19:00, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

That would have been interesting, though with a name like that, the public could easily see why it was changed. Spencer^T♦C 23:51, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

From the moment Gary Hart entered the public arena, his birth name was publicised and I'm not aware he ever tried to conceal it (but then, why would anyone ever introduce themselves by saying "Hi, I'm Gary Hart, but I was born Gary Hartpence"?). He fell by the wayside for other reasons. -- JackofOz (talk) 02:32, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

That Vishnu temple

Know that famous and giant temple to the Hindu god Vishnu with those golden rocket-ship like towers on it? The one that is now a buddaisst (o disrespect,just don't know how to spell it) shrine? I can't find the article on it.

PS Why in the Vishnu article Info-box does it list Vishnu's "planet"? Is Vishnu an alien? Tutthoth-Ankhre (talk) 19:14, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Angkor Wat? I don't know if the towers used to be covered in gold, but they certainly aren't now. --Allen (talk) 19:58, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Also, I don't know the answer to your second question, but googling for "Vaikuntha planet" seems to turn up some promising links. --Allen (talk) 20:07, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Or even pressing this link Vaikuntha ... it's the planet where he lives? (like heaven - does that make jesus a spaceman??)87.102.86.73 (talk) 20:27, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I think it may be a mis-use of the "planet" field in the info-box. Other deities like Varuna, Bṛhaspati, Chandra, Surya, and Budha list the astrological planet which they are associated with (Venus, Jupiter, the Moon, the Sun, etc.), not where they live. -- 128.104.112.147 (talk) 00:13, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Angkor Wat! The service here is quick and effective! Tutthoth-Ankhre (talk) 23:31, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Can a 15 year old be sentenced to life imprisonment in the UK?

and if the answer is 'yes'. Is it for life? or it's a "life imprisonment". 190.49.100.145 (talk) 19:53, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, if they are found to have commited a murder, with full knowledge of the act and consequences. Life imprisonment is in fact the only sentence available to the judge in cases of murder. This odes not specify how long it is untill parole is offered, however. In cases of children, they could be paroled afer only 8-10 years. However, a life sentence could really mean life, as it did for Dr Harold Shipman, before he killed himself.--NeoNerd 22:05, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

In English law a minor is usually sentenced "to be detained At Her Majesty's Pleasure" rather than to Life imprisonment. In both cases the judge at the trial can recommend a minimum period before parole is granted. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 10:28, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Accessible/Newcomer's Classical Music

Hello,

I am looking to start listening to classical music, but there's such a wide variety of types and endless amounts of compositions. Can anyone recommend a good, accessible starting point? I don't want to be driven away by an arrangement that is just to complex or not appealing to a newcomer. I have heard that George Lloyd's Symphony No. 5 is a good place to start, but I was wondering what everyone else thought. Thanks! Mike MAP91 (talk) 20:52, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

You might want to invest in a compilation album such as this one, which has lots of popular and accessible pieces. Also have a listen to Classic FM. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 21:09, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I just put on classicfm, as per Richardrj's advice, and listened to 30 minutes of classicfm's political correspondent talking about Wendy Alexander. Is there a channel that plays just music, without DJ's, without news, without weather, without talking -- just music? Llamabr (talk) 14:08, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

It's a mindfield of different tastes but - peter and the wolf makes a good introduction to the different instruments.87.102.86.73 (talk) 21:40, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I would reccomend Beethoven's Ninth Symphony. I started here, and I loved it. You'll recognise a good deal of it, which is a help and I personally think that it's one of the greatest pieces of music ever written. :)--NeoNerd 22:11, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I have found Bach's organ pieces, in their (apparent) simplicity, to be quite accessible. User:Krator (t c) 22:46, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

(ec, partial overlap with Krator's comment above) Well, as long as we're promoting personal favorites, I'll put in a word for Beethoven's Razumovsky Quartets. Seriously, though, you may find works like string quartets, works for solo instruments (Bach's keyboard works, Mozart's piano sonatas, etc.), and the like, less "complex" in that what's going on musically is easier for the untutored ear to pick up. In my younger days, I owned a multialbum set that surveyed the history of Western music from the Middle Ages to the twentieth century; perhaps your local library has something of the sort. Pick out something that appeals to you and start exploring the composer or period from there. Deor (talk) 23:03, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Beethoven's Third, Fifth and Sixth symphonies. A compilation of Mozart pieces, especially the operas. Bach's Brandenburg Concertos and the Cello Suites. Vivaldi's Four Seasons and other works by Vivaldi. Elgar's Cello Concerto. Works by Ralph Vaughan Williams. Verdi's Requiem. A compilation of works by Saint-Saens. Handel's Water Music and Music for the Royal Fireworks. Itsmejudith (talk) 23:33, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Deor's idea of a historical survey is a good one. You have about 400 years of musical development to get to know, and if you think of it as a single style you'll just be confused and overwhelemed (as your question suggests). Read a bit about the main historical periods of Baroque, Classical, Romantic and (for want of a better word) Modern, and the composers that worked in each. They are very broad categories, but they're useful as a starting point. On another dimension, consider music by "instrumentation" - instrumental music (e.g. solo piano), chamber (e.g. string quartets), orchestral (e.g. symphonies), vocal, operatic, etc. In both dimensions you'll probably find you enjoy some more than others. That's fine: you don't have to like all of it all at once. Many people find that their musical taste changes as they grow older, or as circumstances change. There's a lot of great stuff there to discover - enjoy the journey! AndrewWTaylor (talk)

Thanks for all the help everyone! I will read about the various periods, and go from there. I'll probably start with a sample of various types, as well as some solo piano pieces. From what I've heard so far, I think I like the solos (piano most) as well as the orchestral work. I do play Alto Sax in my school band, so I guess that trained my ears somewhat. I'll start off the way everyone suggested: with a broad sample. However, I will also pick a few solo works to start with, and then move onto some symphonies per your suggestions. Thanks again! Mike MAP91 (talk) 13:23, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

With symphonies, I'd recommend not going straight to the pinnacle of Beethoven's 9th, but whetting your appetite with things like Mozart's 40th in G minor, Prokofiev's "Classical" Symphony (No. 1), Mendelssohn's "Scottish" and "Italian" symphonies, Beethoven's "Pastoral" Symphony (No. 6), or even his 5th in C minor (da-da-da-DAAAH). -- JackofOz (talk) 02:27, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

I found Classical Music for Dummies to be an excellent investment. It comes with a CD of extracts so that you can hear the pieces that the author is writing about. Gandalf61 (talk) 09:58, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

June 28

right of way

what are the laws concerning walking in creeks and streams in ohio and kentuckyCuriouspatty (talk) 03:02, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand the question. And considering that nobody else has responded, I don't feel alone. What sort of right of way would you think that there would be a need for in a creek or stream for someone who is walking? No commercial transport or large private craft would be navigating something as small as a creek or stream, so what point would there be in establishing right of way laws for them specifically? Dismas|^(talk) 02:18, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

I am wondering if it is trespassing to enter a creek from your property and continue to walk in the creek past your own property.Curiouspatty (talk) 00:45, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Can't say for sure, but my guess is for those states, probably. On the other hand, in Montana what you suggest is actually legal but that's because Montana is special. This is sort of heresay, but about a year ago I was passing through Montana and a local told me that the state declared all waterways plus 10' of bank on either side to be public land. Therefore, if you have a fishing license, you can wander around any stretch of creek or river in the state provided you didn't have to traverse privately owned land to get there. It's my understanding that this practice is not common in the US, although it's not necessarily unique either. Obviously I'm not intimately familiar with MO, OH or KY state law, so don't take my word for it. --Shaggorama (talk) 02:00, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I can't say for sure either but a call to the Fish & Wildlife department of each state should be able to tell you. In Wisconsin, I know that you can't (or couldn't as of ~15 years ago) own water. If your land completely surrounded a lake or pond, you had to allow access by the public since the water was public property. The public had to be allowed to get to the water. I worked for a Scout camp where the camp surrounded a lake. We regularly had local fishermen going up there. They knew it was a Scout camp and stayed out of our way when leading hikes and such and we stayed out of their way while they fished. Dismas|^(talk) 10:44, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Population Info. Demographics of Argentina‎

I have added information (Usually always erased) on the Amerindian ancestry of Argentines. (regarding 56% having some/mostly Amerindian ancestry). A source has been provided, yet deletion continues and the threat of requesting lock-down from editing this article has been implied. The source is a study done by the "Servicio de Huellas Digitales Genéticas y Cátedra de Genética y Biología Molecular de la Facultad de Farmacia y Bioquímica de la Universidad de Buenos Aires" In Spanish: http://coleccion.educ.ar/coleccion/CD9/contenidos/sobre/pon3/index.html... and yet the information has been deleted non-stop. Help requested! Thank You. Cali567 (talk) 05:47, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Apparently on Talk:Demographics of Argentina, the study was controversial. I can only suggest continuing the discussion there with the people removing the information. Spencer^T♦C 23:48, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Oper

What scale is 大戲, or Cantonese opera, in?68.148.164.166 (talk) 07:30, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Humanities#sorry_Coudlnt.27_get_an_anwsoer_on_entertainment, above. Spencer^T♦C 23:45, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Cost of British Royal Family

According to this article, the British Royal Family costs the public money, but it was my understanding that they actually paid the UK government more money through their property holdings (or whatever) than they received? Is this article therefore misleading or am I mistaken? ----Seans Potato Business 10:49, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Since the questions were raised several years ago by MP Alan Williams, a Labour member of the public accounts committee, the finances of the royay family have come under public scrutiny. As a result, the royal family now pay tax. The Civil List article, suggests that the List costs about £37m per year but the treasury receives about £185m in tax from the Crown Estate. I'm not sure the BBC's article is misleading though - the tax receipts from the Crown Estate would still be received even if the Civil List were to be abolished. Also, under a pound a year is good value for the economic boost received from the million tourists who visit the UK and expect to see some royal pomp while spending their money here. Astronaut (talk) 12:29, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

War and Peace

Is there any translation of Tolstoy's "War and Peace" that is considered definitive or the best version ?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.5.206.57 (talk) 12:03, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

My wife swears by the Pevear/Volokhonsky translations of Tolstoy, if that helps. They're apparently quite good. --74.223.170.157 (talk) 13:12, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I second that. Pevear and Volokhonsky are the best Russian to English novel translators I know. In this case, among other things, theirs is the first translation to leave all the French untranslated (except in footnotes). The different uses of French and Russian by the characters is rather important in the novel. Algebraist 14:01, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

That makes me wonder: I have War and Peace, translated by Constance Garnett, sitting on my shelf at home, but haven't gotten around to reading it yet. Is this translation any good, or should I purchase the above version because mine is rubbish? Thanks for the answer. GreatManTheory (talk) 17:35, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

The Garnett version was for decades considered the standard translation. That it's generally held in not quite so high esteem these days doesn't necessarily mean that it's rubbish. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:06, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Cavalry

From Cavalry:

“ The final cavalry charge by British Empire forces occurred on 21 March 1942 when a 60 strong patrol of the Burma Frontier Force encountered Japanese infantry near Toungoo airfield in central Burma. The Sikh sowars of the Frontier Force cavalry, led by Captain Arthur Sandeman, charged in the old style with sabres and most were killed. ”

Has anything been written specifically about this event? User:Krator (t c) 12:23, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I haven't found an article devoted to it. There's a short description of the event - calling it "the final horse cavalry charge in British history" - in Encyclopedia of World War II: A Political, Social, and Military History (London, 2004, ed. Spencer Tucker and Priscilla Mary Roberts) on page 309. Xn4 23:05, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm finding claims that the last by British forces was 1944 by the Gwalior Lancers in Arakan, or a 1953 charge by North Frontier Tribal Police against Mau Mau insurgents near Isolio, Kenya.—eric 19:20, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Our article at Battle of Toungoo doesn't make it clear if it's talking about horseback cavalry or motorized cavalry. Corvus cornix_talk 21:20, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

"Stab-in-the-back" (World War I)

I posted my query about this text, which I find ambiguous as written, on the article's talk page. Would appreciate an answer here or there, please, ideally with an accompanying edit (unless the confusion is mine alone...). -- Deborahjay (talk) 12:28, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

(Answer provided there by Parsecboy) -- Deborahjay (talk) 13:52, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Paper blockades

I want to expand the article on blockades (as well as writing a Dutch version of it), but I have some problems trying to find out when paper blockades were abolished. Some sources mention it happened at the Congress of Paris (1856), but the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica mentions it happened "by international agreement in 1812". However I can't find which this international agreement this would be. It doesn't seem to be the Treaty of Ghent since the US only asked England to stop their paper blockade. - Dammit (talk) 13:24, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the 1911 article means that the Continental Blockade of the Napoleanic wars was ended in 1812. There's a list of 1812 treaties at Category:1812 in law. Check out the next page to the Blockade article on wikisource. It agrees with the Congress of Paris (1856) mention. I hope this helps. Spencer^T♦C 20:17, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

The 1856 Paris Declaration established that a blockade "must be sufficient to prevent access and egress to the ports of the enemy" in order to be legal. The U.S. did not sign the declaration, and it became an issue in 1861 when the Union navy was yet too small to cover all the southern ports.—eric 18:50, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Ireland

when did the first hurling match in croke park played and what was the score? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.106.219.177 (talk) 16:20, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

The article on Croke Park states that "Since 1884 the site has been used primarily by the GAA to host Gaelic games, most notably the annual finals of the All-Ireland Senior Football Championship and Senior Hurling Championship." Neither this article nor the official webpage does explicitly state the year of the first match, the teams or any score and two other links are dead. There is a contact, The G.A.A. Museum St. Joseph's Avenue , Croke Park , Dublin 3 , Ireland , Email:   gaamuseum@crokepark.ie, which may be useful to you. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:40, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

flogging

when was the last person to be flogged in the british army? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.148.204.188 (talk) 22:18, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

All I can find on Wikipedia is the death of Private Frederick John White in 1847 1846, which apparently led to calls for reform. Algebraist 22:34, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Some random website claims that abolition was completed in 1881. Algebraist 22:39, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Abolition of flogging was begun in February 1860 by the Duke of Cambridge. As Commander-in-Chief of the British Army, he issued an order under which all men were to be classified into two classes. In the first, they would not be liable to corporal punishment except in cases of "aggravated mutinous conduct in time of war". Men were to begin their service in the first class, but for certain offences they were to be moved into the second class, in which they would be liable to be flogged. One year's uninterrupted good conduct would put a man back into the first class. As Algebraist has said, flogging was abolished completely in the British Army in 1881, and at the same time a new way of dealing with minor offences was introduced called Field Punishment Number One. This provided for offenders to be chained to a fixed point for up to two hours a day and could be ordered as a daily punishment lasting for up to three months. Xn4 00:04, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

I have been unable to find a date for the last flogging, but it seems to have remained fairly common even with the reforms, so it's a pretty safe bet that it was in 1881 (or perhaps 1880, if abolition was at the start of the year). Algebraist 00:15, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Is there a place on this earth that men never stepped on?

87.116.154.181 (talk) 22:40, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Gangkhar Puensum and other claimants to the title of highest unclimbed mountain are obvious examples. So is most of the sea floor, if you count that. Algebraist 22:42, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

There's a lot of undinted snowpack in Antarctica, needless to say. --!Wetman (talk) 05:36, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Also see the answers to similar archived question. Gwinva (talk) 22:24, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

June 29

Obama on copyright reform

Does Barack Obama support the Public Domain Enhancement Act or other copyright reforms? NeonMerlin 00:24, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

His website doesn't say anything, other than, "Barack Obama believes we need to update and reform our copyright and patent systems to promote civic discourse, innovation and investment while ensuring that intellectual property owners are fairly treated."[9]. Which doesn't say a whole lot though it does indicate an interest (which, of course, is only part of the issue—without Congress' interest, nothing will happen, and copyright reform that is not in the interest of Big Media is not, and will probably never be, very popular in Congress, among either party). --98.217.8.46 (talk) 03:14, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Non-staged professional wrestling?

Are there any professional wrestling federations out there who put on unrigged fights whose results are not predetermined beforehand? --90.242.108.208 (talk) 01:41, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

If you mean on the level of WWE, say, then no. It's all staged on that level, since it makes better television. Smaller wrestling groups, or UCF groups might put on genuine matches. However, in most cases, pro wrestling is fake. Watch olympic wrestling to see the real thing.--NeoNerd 13:35, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

You might also be interested in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, catch wrestling, and shooto. Also, while not being limited to wrestling techniques, PRIDE and the UFC have featured many fighters who were trained in various wrestling arts and have put these techniques to use on the mat. --noosphere 17:10, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Airsoft gun laws in Maryland and in other States for minors

Hey, I was just wondering a few things:

Is it legal for an unaccompanied minor to carry an airsoft gun in the state of Maryland? What about Virginia? Or D.C.?

Thank you.

Sharpshot240 (talk) 03:47, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

I take it your question was sparked by recent news articles in the washington post and washington times. If not, you might find em interesting: [10] [11]. It's my understanding that no, there aren't any laws preventing minors from carrying airsoft equipment although I think you have to be 18 to purchase it. If not, I'm sure most stores will at least refuse to sell it to them without a parent present. But don't take my word for it: a distributor would probably be able to tell you definitively. -Shaggorama (talk) 01:49, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

When Canada is more conservative than the US

When was the last time Canada's government was more conservative than that of the United States at the same time? Will the Harper-Obama overlap be unprecedented in this respect? NeonMerlin 03:52, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not big on Canadian politics. Were the Progressive Conservatives really conservatives? If so, the last time the Canadians were more conservative was in 1993. Clinton was in charge in the US while Brian Mulroney and Kim Campbell were PMs. But, of course, I don't know either of their policies and am only going by their party to determine their political ideology. Paragon12321 (talk) 04:52, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

It's tough to compare the conservativeness or progressiveness of governments in different countries. If you get Stephen Harper and George W. Bush together, they might share similar philosophies about the role of government and free enterprise. But publicly, Harper supports policies to the "left" of even the Democrats in the U.S. For example, Harper officially supports Canada's single-payer health-care system, in which private insurance for "medically necessary" treatments is basically illegal. Only the most left-wing members of Congress in the U.S. would agree with him. Certainly, the Canadian political center has been to the left of the American one since the election of Pierre Trudeau in 1968. It's hard to see Joe Clark as more conservative than Jimmy Carter or Kim Campbell more conservative than Bill Clinton. You could consider Diefenbaker and Kennedy, although Kennedy was actually somewhat conservative in the traditional sense of the word in his short time in the White House. Certainly, FDR was far to the left economically of R.B. Bennett when he was elected, although Bennett belatedly embraced government intervention in the mid-'30s. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 11:45, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

I follow Canadian politics somewhat, and I don't think that it's clear that Harper's policies are more conservative than those advocated by Obama. (Mandatory single-payer health care is a good case in point.) Marco polo (talk) 00:28, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Second choice

Can anyone think of a famous example in literature of someone settling for their second choice of love? Like, they couldn't win the heart of the one they truly love, so they settle for who's right there, someone who loves them greatly, even though the former is only settling for a less desired person. 96.233.60.132 (talk) 04:20, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Are you referring to protagonists only? I'm sure there are several examples in fiction of peripheral characters settling for second best. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 12:24, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

The only example that springs readily to mind is Green Dolphin County, by Elizabeth Goudge, that was made into the movie Green Dolphin Street (1947). Marguerite and William love each other, but Marguerite’s sister Marianne also loves William. He has a habit of confusing their names, to both their displeasures. He has to get away from the law in (?)France and flees to New Zealand. Drunk one night, he writes to ask for his love (Marguerite) to join him, but again confuses the names and asks for Marianne by mistake. When she turns up in NZ, he realises his mistake. But she’s all he’s got, so they make do. -- JackofOz (talk) 12:58, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Jacob and Leah (the first recorded bait and switch?), although he did get Rachel (and a few others) later. Clarityfiend (talk) 19:10, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Hm, I'll have to check out "Green Dolphin County"; sounds interesting. And I had forgotten about Jacob and Leah. They're not quite what I had in mind, but thanks! Actually, (I think) I was thinking more along the lines of a Shakespearian love triangle, almost akin to the "Lovers" plot in "A Midsummer Night's Dream"; got any ideas? 96.233.60.132 (talk) 20:10, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Pride and Prejudice's Mr Collins wanted Elizabeth Bennett, but had to settle for her friend Charlotte. I wouldn't call it love though. I don't think Mr Collins wanted to love anyone other than Lady Catherine de Burgh. Steewi (talk) 00:02, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

There are many examples of at least temporarily settling for whoever is there at the moment. That even goes back to those wild and crazy Old Testament stories, such as Lot settling for his daughters when he couldn't have his wife (and then claiming that they made him have sex with them). Is this question specifically referring to marrying and spending a whole life with the second choice? -- kainaw™ 00:31, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Another good example from Austen is Mr Elton, who loves Emma but has to settle for someone less appealing. Your mention of Shakespeare prompts me to wonder if Orsino in Twelfth Night is an example of what you're looking for. But it's not a simple one: does he settle for Viola when he accepts Olivia is no longer available? Or does he already love Cesario (Viola's male persona) and is delighted to discover that "he" is actually female and single? Similarly problematic is Bertram at the end of All's Well That Ends Well: are any of his emotions really "love"? AndyJones (talk) 07:51, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Mr. Elton didn't love Emma; he loved her position and wealth. Clarityfiend (talk) 16:34, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I have the nagging feeling that this occurs in a Thomas Hardy novel to a main (or relatively main) character but I cannot think of which one it is. Does that jog anything for anyone, or is my mind playing tricks? User:Jwrosenzweig 08:50, 30 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.112.32.67 (talk)

A Suitable Boy plays with this as a possibility. I won't spoil the ending for you. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:47, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Reichspropagandaleitung der NSDAP

In the English Wikipedia we have no page on the Reichspropagandaleitung der NSDAP. According to the German Wikipedia article, it operated between 1926 and 1945. I didn't succeed in reading that article and would like to know:

• How to represent its name in English;
• How it was related (if at all) to the governmental Ministry for Popular Enlightenment and Propaganda (founded in 1933);
• What is meant by the Central Propaganda Office of the Nazi Party referred to in that article as a "main branch" of the Ministry.

Thank you -- Deborahjay (talk) 13:40, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Reichspropagandaleitung. Reich propaganda leadership, direction. The Nazi Party’s Central Propaganda Office, a subunit of the Propaganda Ministry. See Reichsminister(ium) für Volksaufklärung und Propaganda. Michael, R., & Doerr, K. (2002). Nazi-Deutsch/Nazi-German an English lexicon of the language of the Third Reich. OCLC 52723886

Perhaps most important for the success of the party's electoral efforts, however, was Hitler's creation of the Reich Propaganda Directorate ( Reichspropagandaleitung--RPL [in list of abbreviations as Propaganda Directorate of the NSDAP]) in early 1931. Goebbels had been directing Nazi propaganda since the previous year, but in 1931 his staff was expanded and his responsibility for National Socialist propaganda activities throughout the entire Reich formalized in the RPL. The RPL provided the Gauleiters with secret monthly reports on national political developments, propaganda techniques, and an outline of Nazi propaganda for the coming month. Beginning in April 1931, the RPL also distributed a monthly publication, Unser Wille und Weg (Our Will and Way), a journal for local Nazi functionaries that explained the party's position on key political and economic issues... Childers, T. (1983). The Nazi voter: the social foundations of fascism in Germany, 1919-1933. p. 194. OCLC 9576027

—eric 16:44, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Gods incarnating as a human of the opposite gender

In Greek mythology there are many instances of a god incarnating as a human of the god's own gender. Are there any instances of them incarnating as humans of the opposite gender? If not, how about gods in Roman or other mythologies? -noosphere 17:02, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

In the Odyssey, Athena comes to earth in the form of a fisherman or something to talk to Telemachus. I don't think "incarnating" is the right word though. Greek gods already have flesh before they come down. Wrad (talk) 17:33, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

The purely Latin anecdote of Pomona and Vertumnus. The episode of Zeus and Callisto, where Zeus takes the guise of Artemis. Male artists and patrons of the 16th-18th centuries found the undercurrents of transvestitism and lesbianism as titillating as you do. --Wetman (talk) 19:25, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Athena took the shape of Deiphobus... AnonMoos (talk) 23:03, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

And Mentor also, no? I imagine if I were better versed in more obscure tales Athena might appear as a man more often than these two famous occasions. User:Jwrosenzweig editing as 71.112.32.67 (talk) 08:47, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Some aver that God is a woman (and possibly black), but he is said to have been incarnated as Jesus Christ, a male. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:01, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Jesus wasn't a woman, that's news to me!87.102.86.73 (talk) 16:46, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Cairo Geniza travel journals?

I have S.D. Goitein's A Mediterranean Society (Vol. I) and Letters of Medieval Jewish Traders. These books mention several series of letters that enable readers to chart the careers of certain merchants from the 10th-13th centuries. However, I don't remember reading anything about actual travel journals being found within the Cairo Geniza. Were such journals ever found in the Geniza? --Ghostexorcist (talk) 20:15, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

June 30

Freud in portuguese: "Arquitectura Animica"

I´m trying to help a friend translate a concept for a psychoanalysis peice he's writing. After a long attempt at trying to get a general understanding of the term and realizing that it must exist in english but that I just couldn´t put my finger on it, I started asking him etymological questions. The concept is "Arquitectura animica," and it was first used by Freud. Animica comes from animus which pertains to the soul or the soul's faculties. The idea (as best as I understand it) relates to concepts, assumptions about the world and manners of interpreting the world that are hard-wired into an individual´s psyche by their parent cultural and upbringing. I suggested "paradigm" and "ideology," but my friend didn't bite. If anyone can give a better translation, preferably (if possible) the phrase in common use by freudian translators into english, it would be much appreciated. --Shaggorama (talk) 01:03, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

If you can find out exactly where this is used in a Portuguese translation of Freud, then it should be easy to find what the term used in a good English translation is. Strawless (talk) 15:40, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Our morals, ethics, etc. Illusion?

If we were tought from birth that killing each other is okay, and there is no stealing, just take and keep what you're strong eneough to hold onto, and if everyone did just that, would we not be stating that this is our God given morals? That it's the right thing to do?--THE WORLD'S MOST CURIOUS MAN (talk) 02:16, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Probably, since it would be considered "natural behavior". Hard to tell. But it's nice to note that it has been suggested that our code of ethics evolved naturally. See evolutionary ethics. — Kieff | Talk 02:29, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

There are people who argue that anyway[12], against co-operation and for competition. People like God-put-me-here Robert Mugabe commonly use "God" to justify their behaviour or will to predominate, but I'd guess it gets lonely at the top of the heap with fear for your friend. Btw, do you mean to have a username all in caps for any particular reason? Julia Rossi (talk) 05:39, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Given that morality and ethics are social norms rather than anything to do with nature - yes. Look across 'the wild' and you'll find plenty of animals fight to the death over mates, over food, over placement in the group. So yes we would consider it perfectly normal if we had never culturally decided it wasn't acceptable in general society. The more interseting question would be...would society ever have developed as much as it has in that world? Collabaration and the rule of law are doubtlessly huge factors in why we've developed so much. Without the security of a state that claims to protect you would you ever invest huge amounts in something that might be taken away from you by another? Is the incentive to work hard and toil still there when anybody is free to take the proceeds of your work? I suspect in the above universe while our ethics and morals wouldn't be offended (since they would be constructed in a world where that was the norm) our lives would be hugely different and (I believe) hugely less developed than they are today. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 11:07, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Dr. Friedlander

Can any user please let me have further information about a Dr. Friedlander who was a physician and taught at King's College Hospital Medical School - University of London in the late 1970s and early 1980s. Thank you. Simonschaim (talk) 08:58, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Is this him?John Z (talk) 09:37, 30 June 2008 (UTC)