This is a second attempt at FA for this Nintendo Entertainment System classic. While there were relatively little comment on the previous FAC attempt a little over 3 months ago, the sole oppose had concerns about not meeting 1b, which after looking back I completely agree. Since the last FAC attempt (version at the end of the last FAC, [2]), the article has been greatly expanded in all directions, including 17KB more material (8KB more of written prose and about 1400 more words); coverage from 1989 is now provided to the point in which this should easily meet 1b.
Some background information about the article: this video game basically launched the Ninja Gaiden franchise and is considered one of the best NES titles of all time. The gameplay mechanics and animated sequences were revolutionary at the time.
And finally, as I have mentioned in all my previous trips to FAC, of the 131 video game FAs currently, not one of them is on a game for the NES which, having grown up in the "NES generation", is shocking and sad. I'm hoping that we can break that mold right here with this article. –MuZemike16:11, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Images: I'm going back on my previous statements in the old FAC about File:Ninja Gaiden NES Duel.png. Yes, cutscenes are discussed, but it's really only two critics, and what they discuss isn't shown in this image (the close-ups of characters, and fluid animation which we really can't see anyhow.) Also, why do the fair use rationales for the screenshots say "No: Image is high-resolution"? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk)17:18, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Those were mistakes on my part, as the images are as small and low as resolution you can possibly get (FURs corrected [3] and [4]). As far as the usage of the one image, if I remove it, would having only the boxart and gameplay images be sufficient enough to meet criterion 3? –MuZemike19:31, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If absolutely necessary to have an additional (free) image in there, I could include Seth Godin's (publisher of the game's novelization for Worlds of Power) image (File:Seth Godin.jpg) in the "Other appearances" section, provided that is relevant enough to the given material in that section. –MuZemike19:47, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To your first question: I think the gameplay shot could use some expansion to its rationale, but it's valid; as to free images, you can go crazy, as far as rules go. Whether or not the images are relevant enough is your call (although the Seth Godin image you linked should be deleted as copyvio, as the description clearly says it's supposed to be a NC-license and thus invalid for Wikipedia. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk)20:43, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fuchs is correct—the licenses allow commercial use, but Godin only granted rights "to use online in any non-commercial way" (says the Author field), which doesn't cut it for those licenses or Commons in general. If he's not dead or reclusive, there's no "non-free" room either. It's gotta go byebye. :( --anoddname21:01, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I just talked to a couple of admins on Commons, and after looking at that image's history, the "non-commercial" part wasn't part of the original upload. commons:User:Krinkle over at Commons reverted the "non-commercial" part, (Actually, I was in the process of restoring the image here when that was discovered, causing me to re-delete the image here.) so I would think that would be good now. I am also uploading an image of him that is only tagged as CC-BY-SA 2.0 on Flickr to Commons if there are any additional doubts (and because you can, provided attribution is provided and it's not NC, which it isn't). –MuZemike21:34, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sources issues: A few very trivial points:-
Ref 8:The "cite journal" template doesn't identify page numbers as such, unless you out "p." or "pp." in the field. In this case it would be appropriate to enter "pp. 20–30" in the field, otherwise nobody knows what "20–30" refers to.
Ref 26: The "pp." point again. Also, "issue= 0": if this means that issues are un-numbered, best to simply omit this field.
It actually says "Issue 0" on the magazine's cover; that (Issue 0) is also referenced in Ref #5 in the second coverage by Mean Machines (page 68 under the "Ninja Binge" section). –MuZemike21:58, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm trying to reference the actual magazine's cover, which I'm not sure how to handle that as far as verifiability is concerned. Alternatively, I could just leave out the citation completely if it's that trivial. –MuZemike21:58, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The sources used look pretty mainstream to me, but it would be good if an editor with experience of video game articles at FAC could comment on their reliability. Brianboulton (talk) 20:58, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I added in "p. X" or "pp. Y" for consistency and corrected the one "publisher" error. Relevant diff for the above corrections is [5]. –MuZemike21:58, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*Manual in reference should link to the corresponding reference entry.
Not sure what you are getting at. Much of the citations in the first few sections go to the manual, in which I used shorthand citations to reduce redundancy. I then put the full citation down in the "References" section. That should be consistent with WP:CITE. –MuZemike00:30, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 61, 76 - I'm not sure on this, but should IGN Staff be author? It seems that an editor would be better.
If we knew who the specific editor was, but unfortunately they did not disclose that. That should not make the reference any less reliable as a result. –MuZemike00:30, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, no, I'm not concerned about reliability. I meant use editor= field instead of author= field. Of course I was being stupid and cite web doesn't have editor, that's just for books. — Hellknowz ▎talk
Ref 31 author Fletcher, JC - it says so on site but is JC first name?
I am not following what you mean on that one. I can't tell if the issue is overlinking or underlinking; I thought once in the citation list is sufficient and is consistent in how it's linked in the article prose. By the way, the diff of the above corrections I made is [6]. –MuZemike00:30, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I meant underlinking. Correct me if I am wrong and only first instance should be linked. I assumed references are usually very scattered and sources not in sequence, so every instance is to be linked. — Hellknowz ▎talk00:40, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Scholastic Press is redirect to Scholastic Corporation, "Press" part is not subsidiary, division, and the company does not do anything else, so it may be better to redirect directly.
I know about not fixing not-broken, and I only pointed out obvious misspellings or redirects that are unlikely to have separate articles.— Hellknowz ▎talk17:43, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW, I fixed that and added one link as noted above with the exception of "ninpo". [7] suggests that "ninpo" is different from "ninjutsu", even though that distinction is not made in the ninjutsu article. Hence, I think it's better to go by what the source says, which is "ninpo". –MuZemike17:32, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support; this looks to meet FA standard after the previous FAC. Good work on the large reception section for this relatively old game. One comment: You may wish to change the section title "Other appearances" to "Other media" or "Related media". Tezero (talk) 01:40, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Went ahead and changed that heading to "Related media" here as it does make more sense and is what is in many other related FAs. –MuZemike03:51, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OpposeSupport. This article is 99% of the way there. My objection is that the development section is slightly incomplete and incorrect. There is an interview at http://hg101.kontek.net/ninjagaiden/ninjagaiden9.htm with an artist on the first game. While most of the interview relates to the second and third games in which this individual had a larger role, he gives some information on the first including on a Mr. Yoshizawa, whom he considers the father of the series for deciding the game should have a story. Yoshizawa was also the writer of the story, but the article credits Sakurazaki instead. There is also an interesting story about how having to start the last chapter from the beginning if you lost against the final boss resulted from an unintended bug. Once the information from the interview is incorporated (I know I could do it, but I figure the nominator should put it in there in the manner he wants) then I think it will be good to go. Indrian (talk) 19:26, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The interview was originally used as a source for the timing of the releases of both the arcade and NES version [8], but the reliability of that source is questionable and was questioned in the previous FAC. The author of these series of pages is "derboo", which according to the site's main page, he is the "catalog administrator". The site's head editor is Kurt Kalata, who is a contributor (articles, that is) to 1UP.com, Gamasutra, and Sliconera. The guidelines here seem to suggest that the content of the site is generated by users. That's why the source was removed because of its shaky reliability as a source. –MuZemike19:42, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If the individual in question was author of the material, that would be one thing, but since this is an interview, I really do not see the issue. Do you have some reason to doubt that the interview itself is authentic? Indrian (talk) 19:44, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
User-generated content (as far as I can tell) is basically self-published. By that SPS section and SELFPUB just below (both part of the Verifiability policy), a self-pub'd interview would basically be an even bigger red flag, because it claims that an important third party (in this case, Masato Kato) said those things.
My concern about hg101 is not whether the authors hide behind aliases (see GamePro until recently) but whether there's fact-checking. The site looks useful, but I just don't know what their fact-check policies (if they have them) are. The submission guidelines MuZemike linked above say little or nothing on those (let alone whether they differ between contributors and HG staff like "derboo"). Lacking those, I'd consider it just another fansite (however insightful). --anoddname20:10, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
For the time being, I placed them in (diffs: [9], [10], and [11]). I'll let a rough consensus form as to whether or not it's reliable. I'll be happy to revert/remove if it's deemed not reliable. –MuZemike20:39, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good. I personally think the interview is reliably authentic since the editor of the site appears to be a trusted journalist himself (in other words, I would expect him to make sure that he was actually posting a real interview), and an interview consists of direct quotes from the subject rather than truly user-generated content, but I do agree it is borderline and obviously if there is an outcry you should not be penalized for failing to use it as a source. Furthermore, since you have been able to correct the naming issue through other sources, the interview is not really strctly necessary at this point anyway. I withdraw my objection. Indrian (talk) 15:16, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I wonder if the "Some reviewers appreciated the redrawn graphics" sentence actually belongs in Reception or Legacy, and if the "In its preview of Ninja Gaiden II: The Dark Sword of Chaos" one should go in Legacy (because it was more a reflection on the good ol' days of Part 1 given the upcoming Part 2). Minor, though.
Otherwise good. I went through and corrected and tweaked a few text things but the prose looks nice and crisp. There's a lot to see here about the game and its re-releases and adaptations, and "Gameplay" and "Plot" agree with reality. The sources all look good and reliable, and I don't see any sort of POV-ness. Structure looks good (no odd "Overview" or "Trivia" sections, or glut of small sections) and refs look consistent. Once the Godin image is confirmed free (or removed), you can consider me a full support because the non-frees have good rationales. --anoddname16:44, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: After seeing that this had been nominated, and examining its high praise from reviewers thus far, I went to look it over for possible issues. The article seems to be FA-quality in its research; unfortunately, I think the prose is a little iffy. I noticed problems with redundancy and informal voice, and, occasionally, with punctuation and information overload. The diff on my rough copyedit of the first four paragraphs is a good indication of what I'm referring to. Do not consider this to be an opposing vote, however; my Wikipedia time too limited to go through the checklisting-assisting-supporting process that an opposition entails. I'm only pointing this out so that other reviewers can examine the article from a different perspective. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 13:30, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll take another look at the prose when I get time today (I have a peer review, a GAN, and a baseball game to do today). I will note that [13]has some errors also, including a comma splice and introduces more passive voice – something I was trying to avoid (i.e. "Players lose a life when ..." as opposed to "A "life" is lost when ..."). –MuZemike14:34, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Struck out the "comma splice" portion there as I did not realize what I saw was an appositive, which is okay to set off with commas (or with dashes or even without commas). –MuZemike16:33, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
...and finished up with development and reception/legacy. (I didn't see anything that stuck out in the "Other appearances" section.) The material in the latter half of the article is newer and was probably written better from the start than the first half. –MuZemike19:45, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments –
"Didn't quite get this sentence from Plot: "Walter then tells Ryu of an evil demon that "SHINOBE" defeated and confined its power into two "Light" and "Shadow" demon statues." SHINOBE confined the power? If so, the sentence is not 100% clear on that point. It could stand a re-write.
Amazon doesn't need multiple links in this section.
"that he was the one who dueled with Ryu's father and, that his father is still alive, and that Ryu will meet him as he presses onward." Something feels off here; I think it's the first "and", which seems to be making this awkward.
Development: The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles link currently goes to a page on the entire series. On a glance, an appropriate article for the individual game should exist and could be linked instead.
Other appearances: Drop-down tables such as the track listing here are discouraged by accessibility guidelines. Personally I wouldn't have a problem with removing the show/hide function; the text is substantial enough that it won't be overwhelmed by the list.Giants2008 (27 and counting) 00:48, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Made the corrections in the first three points here. As far as the "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" are concerned, I think the context of that what the article (and the source) meant was the entire series itself (i.e. the entire series became "Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles" when it reached Europe). I don't have much a problem undoing the collapsible table for the discography, but I have WP:LAYOUT concerns if I also do that to the infobox. That gameplay image would have to be virtually moved down to the Plot section, which is also not a good thing to do as the image is not next to the text in which it's attributing. –MuZemike01:18, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The discography table was what I meant. I didn't even notice the one in the infobox until the response, and agree that it would cause more trouble than it's worth to uncollapse that one. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 15:08, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This article is about the only Victoria Cross recipient flying with an RAAF squadron during World War II, a man who was shot down and beheaded by his captors for his trouble. Took it to GA some time ago but always intended for FA. This recent expansion employing his sole biography and that of a comrade, Charles Learmonth (another article in my sights), has just passed A-Class Review in the MilHist and Aviation projects, and I believe meets FA criteria as well. N.B. This is a Wikicup entry; please note that due to travel commitments, I'll have limited access to the web (and even less to references) for a month commencing 10 June, so if people are able to review and raise any issues sooner rather than later, that'd be very helpful. Thanks/cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:03, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Cricket alert!: "...Test batsman Bill Ponsford—still the only man to twice score 400 in a first-class innings..." I suggest you check out the record of B.C. Lara (West Indies). Admittedly, one of his was over 500, and the other was only against England, but still... Brianboulton (talk) 10:52, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Heh, I didn't put in that little snippet myself but as nominator I'll take responsibility for it... ;-) Happy to change "still the only man" to "the first man" unless anyone has a better suggestion. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:13, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Does look a bit dubious, doesn't it? I'm happy to replace with the Australian flag until or unless the emblem licensing is verified -- we'd always tended to use the Australian flag for the Army till this emblem file became available recently. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:16, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Yet another great article on a significant RAAF figure which meets the FA criteria. I've re-worded the last sentence in the lead so that it flows better, but could be tweaked more I suspect. Nick-D (talk) 08:26, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks Nick. I think your modification to the last sentence of the lead is generally fine but wonder if it'd work slightly better as "for action" as opposed to "for an action" (seems to flow better and still accurate), and kind of prefer "sole Australian to be so decorated" unless that sounds a bit peacockish... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:16, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, "for action" is more accurate (given that this is an unusual VC in that it wasn't awarded for a single event) and "sole Australian to be so decorated" cuts down on some duplication. Nick-D (talk) 10:52, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support I think this is an excellent article. It flows well and has just the right amount of information in it. I had a look in my books on the VC and couldn't find anything to add or anything incorrect so sources works out well. I have a slight qualm with the sentence: "The citation in the London Gazette, which incorrectly implied that he was shot down on 17 March rather than the following day, and as having failed to escape from his sinking aircraft, read:" It just doesn't seem to flow right to me, maybe it can be reworded? Also, you don't need the double citation there in terms of "ref [13]," the Gazette should suffice. Apart from those small personal issues I think the article is great and meets the FA criteria. Good work. Woody (talk) 22:42, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Tks Woody, I'll think about that sentence (maybe on the plane)! Re. the second citation, I was being careful of any suggestion of editorialising: the two errors are actually pointed out by Staunton, so it's not just me saying it... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:56, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Newton was awarded the Victoria Cross for his actions on 16–18 March, becoming the only Australian airman to earn the decoration in the South West Pacific theatre of World War II, and the only one while flying with an RAAF squadron. The citation, which incorrectly implied that he was shot down on 17 March rather than the following day, and as having failed to escape from his sinking aircraft, was promulgated in the London Gazette on 19 October 1943:
That reads better to me, after reflecting on what you said I suggest you put the ref at the end of "1943:" and then put the Gazette citation at the end of the citation. Would that work for you? Woody (talk) 16:50, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Read the page from start and finish, and to me it certainly deserves the star. Well-written, well-sourced, and a fine read. There were a couple tiny flaws that I noticed; the first was in the bit that Woody mentioned earlier. It still looks a shade off to me, and I think it's because of the "as having" part. Just dropping those two words would be sufficient to fix it. The second thing was toward the end, where I saw "by the-then Chief of Air Force"; the hyphen looks like it should go one word later. Other than those small points, excellent work. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 01:39, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
I am nominating this for featured article because I can't think of anything else to add, and I believe it meets the criteria. It's another little brown swallow, I'm afraid, but at least its African, an area of weakness for WP fauna projects Jimfbleak - talk to me?14:43, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sources comment: For consistency's sake, publisher locations should be added to those books that don't presntly have them. Otherwise, all sources look OK, no further issues. Brianboulton (talk) 00:01, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support All looking good. Ucucha06:16, 30 May 2010 (UTC)Comment. I passed this as a GA before and it seems to have improved since; on a read through, I didn't find any problems. There are a few sources that should perhaps be included:[reply]
Title: Nest eviction of rock martins by little swifts.
Title: Variation, geographical arcs and gene-flow within the populations of the rock martin Hirundo (Ptyonoprogne) fuligula in eastern, southern and south-western Africa.
Thanks for reviewing again. Carr is a good find, they often nest together, so this behaviour is not surprising. I can't access Irwin. If there is anything important that should go in, would you me kind enough to email it to me? Thanks again, Jimfbleak - talk to me?12:33, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have it either, but is in the library (don't know when I'll be going there). It does sound like there could be some interesting pieces. Ucucha13:30, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for addition and support. I don't know if there is an MoS on whether to use current or former country names, but you sentence neatly solves that for this article at least Jimfbleak - talk to me?07:11, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
for the lead, I'd suggest linking plumage, flight feather, subspecies, clutch; conversely, is a link to insects necessary?
since there's a dearth of photos of the species, how about cropping the taxobox image so that more of the picture is of the bird?
"The sexes are similar," in appearance? (same in description section)
"… and are sometimes split as the "Pale Crag Martin". split into a different species? Need to be more explicit here for clarity I think
"16–19 days to hatching" ->prior to hatching? (also in breeding section)
authority & year for synonym in taxobox?
nbsps in short-form
link hybridise
not a fan of the list-like subspecies section with incomplete sentences. Would rather see it in a table than the form it's in now, or (preferably) as prose.
perhaps relink covert & fledge (there a ways from the lead), rufous, vagrant, conspecifics
"short range" needs hyphen
why link Congo but not Gabon, Kuwait, Mali or Mauritania? (and later, Botswana and Namibia)
link synonym
foreign-language titles should have Engligh translation
some refs end with full stops, others don't
Tuner cited text title in sentence case, other aren't
Thanks for careful review, I've followed all your suggestions. I opted for a table rather than prose because there are too many ssp to make compelling writing when there is so little to say about each form. Jimfbleak - talk to me?07:30, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The range map looks like it has been drawn with a bit of a shaky pen, and I would not like to see it go out in the FT book like that. Snowman (talk) 16:50, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for comments. This is version 3 of the map following geographical corrections, and it's the best I can do. Distributions don't follow straight lines or small curves anyway, they just fade out. Maps aren't a FA or FT requirement and can be removed if necessary Jimfbleak - talk to me?06:25, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The shaky lines are not like a finished product and I think the schematic makes the article look a bit amateurish. Snowman (talk) 20:24, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think that the authority formatting in wrong. I have occasionally written it the way you have written it and some erudite bird editors rewrite it with the the name and the date within the brackets. I have not asked why, but I presume that there is some agreed standard format somewhere.Snowman (talk) 20:32, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you refer to the parentheses, they are used where the current name is not the original name. So Barn Swallow is Hirundo rustica Linnaeus, 1758, but House Martin is Delichon urbicum (Linnaeus) 1758 since he named it Hirundo urbica. I corrected the first taxobox occurrence of Lichtenstein, which should have been parenthetical since he named it as Hirundo. AFAIK, none of the ssp has its original name and all should be parenthetical Jimfbleak - talk to me?06:14, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think there is a "correct" style, other than when parentheses are used. Turner used (name) date, I switched these to (name, date) for consistency with the taxobox style rather than because Turner was "wrong". If you prefer it without the comma, that's fine with me too. Jimfbleak - talk to me?12:31, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I do not want to pursue this any further, because I do not know much about the format. Nevertheless, it is good that the authority formatting is now consistent within the page. It might be something that WP Birds could discuss. Snowman (talk) 15:04, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am not happy with the readability of the article and I would recommend copy editing of the whole article again. Snowman (talk) 20:59, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have done some copy editing in the "Predators and parasites" section: generally I improved readability by reducing ambiguity, complex grammar, and abstruse words. If necessary, please reword this section to improve it even further. In the absence new editors to the article, I would ask you to have a look through the rest of the article. Snowman (talk) 08:57, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Other raptors known to eat Rock Martins include the Peregrine and Taita Falcons." - presumably these are fast and agile and catch martins in flight too. This line does not explain enough details.Snowman (talk) 21:04, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sure that's the case, since that's how falcons normally hunt birds or insects in flight, but the sources do not specifically say that for the two species you mention. Do you think I should assume it anyway and put something like Some falcons have the speed and agility to catch swallows and martins, and Rock Martins may be hunted by species such as the Peregrine Falcon,[24] Taita Falcon,[25] African Hobby and wintering Eurasian Hobby.[23] ? Unsigned edit by Jimfbleak - talk to me?06:14, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think it does mean amending, because it could imply that the latter two do not catch them in flight. I was thinking about writing something like you suggest, but I have not got the references. I thought that it might be informative to differentiate the most common "enemies" and occasional "enemies", if there is such a difference. Snowman (talk)
now Some falcons have the speed and agility to catch swallows and martins in flight, and Rock Martins may be hunted by species such as the Peregrine Falcon,[23] Taita Falcon,[24] African Hobby and wintering Eurasian Hobby. All these falcons take a wide range of prey; Peregrines mainly eat larger birds like pigeons, and the others will take any available hirundine and also large insects. It's unlikely that any of these are common predators. Jimfbleak - talk to me?12:31, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Table presentation:
The table was not rendered well on small screens, so I have fixed the table so that it is viewed OK on my screen. If you have a wide screen you may not see a difference. The image got in the way on the right of the table, so I have moved that to the section below. It it still OK on your screen now. Snowman (talk) 15:29, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In (Geyr von Schweppenburg, 1916) will "Schweppenburg" be adequate? All the other names are just one name, but this name is in three words.Snowman (talk) 15:29, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Where are the references for the table? "The treatment here follows Turner (1989).[10]" should be rewritten. Does it mean that this is the reference for the table? Snowman (talk) 15:36, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
rephrased as The list below is based on Turner (1989)
The putative split with the Pale Crag Martin could be indicated in the table by using alternative letters in the trinomial names; see the "Trichoglossus" genus page for ideas. Snowman (talk) 16:02, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it's appropriate here. It's not a single ssp that would be split, and although that doesn't prevent giving the trinomials, I follow Turner, who doesn't accept the split, and the ssp involved are clearly identified in the text. Jimfbleak - talk to me?06:20, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - disclose COI as wikiproject birds member, nevertheless these swallows have all flown past me to this point. Looks tight and professional. I can't think of anything else to tweak. Casliber (talk·contribs) 03:12, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am nominating this for featured article because the Millennium Park featured topic currently had 6 WP:FAs among its 15 articles. On September 1, the required FA proportion will be increasing from 1/3 to 1/2. Thus, the topic is in danger of being demoted from WP:FT to WP:GT if it does not get two more FAs before September 1. In addition Park Grill and Grant Park Music Festival are expected to be added to the topic as soon as Park Grill gets through its WP:PR and then a WP:GAC. Thus, the project is likely to need three more FAs before September 1. This is a high quality areticle that is very befitting of the FA designation and it would help the WP:CHICAGO project retain its only FT if it can get promoted. TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:01, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Could you please explicitly say which copyrighted material / file it is derived from? When I follow the links, it appears to be derived from File:Reinel compass rose.svg which is a free image and a FP, and is itself based on a map image published in 1504 (so PD old). I am not seeing the copyrighted material and would appreciate a more explicit explanation. Ruhrfisch><>°°19:29, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I contacted Fasach Nua and asked for clarification. The answer was that the file it is derived from ( File:Compass rose pale.svg) was licensed GFDL, CC-BY-SA, while the file in question was licensed PD-self. I have changed the license accordingly - here for the talk page conversation and here for my edit to change the license. Thanks to Fasach Nua for the clarification, Ruhrfisch><>°°12:15, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your support and kind words. As a general note, I am experiencing computer issues at home and may not be able to get online this weekend (from about 7 hours from now until Monday morning). Ruhrfisch><>°°13:29, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree about the Chicago, Illinois. As if there is a Chicago in other states or something... It is also irritating when I search for a category e.g Theatres in Chicago and find it no longer exists and has not even been redirected to "Theatres in Chicago, Illinois. I find the ""Illinois" on the end of everything redundant. You never see for instance London referred to as London, England in every category. Dr. BlofeldWhite cat09:52, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Why do some year ranges have four + four numerals, and others have four + two? For example: 2002–2003 versus 2008–09. Still others have apostrophes to stand in the place of the first two numerals: '03–'04, '04–'05, etc.
In some of Blair Kamin's newspaper articles, are the stars part of the article title, or do they establish a new line or section? It doesn't seem to me that stars should be in the article title. Kamin has other such news item titles (with stars) in the Millennium Park article. If the stars go, the subsequent address or location description should go as well.
I believe that if you traced down microfilm of these articles the title would include a star character instead of the words that you see here. However, in the databases that we are using the word star replaces the character. I think this is correct as presented, but I could be convinced otherwise.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:51, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My concern is not about the words swapped in for stars, it is about having stars (or words saying star star star) in the title. I don't think the stars were intended by Kamin to be part of the title. Binksternet (talk) 04:14, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Are you suggesting that the Title ends before the stars. here as an alternate source for the same article in which the stars seem like subtitles, which I often include in citations. I am now tempted to change the asterisks back to prose (star)s.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 06:21, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I am suggesting that the article title is "Joan W. and Irving B. Harris Theater for Music and Dance" and that the "**" or "(star) (star)" is the beginning of an unneeded subtitle, followed by the address. Binksternet (talk) 14:36, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My standard convention for titles in citations in every article I have written on WP is to include the subtitle, with a colon between the title and the subtitle. I have never been told that this is wrong or pointed to any MOS on the issue.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:02, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The sentence which starts "The seats are maplewood, carpeting and walls..." should probably have a semicolon following 'maplewood' so that the reader does not think the seats are also composed of carpeting and walls.
Why is there a difference between the article body and the reference section in terms of date formatting? The body uses mdy, spelling out the month, and the references use ymd with numeral month. (Except for the MPNYT cite.)
Thanks, but my understanding was that the dates had to be consistent in sections (within the article, within the references) but could be two different styles in two different sections. I note that Wikipedia:MOS#Dates says in part "Dates in the format YYYY-MM-DD (like 1976-05-13) are uncommon in English prose and are generally not used in article prose. However, they may be useful in long lists, references, and tables for conciseness and ease of comparison." If you still want this to be changed, please say so and I will make the reference date changes. Ruhrfisch><>°°13:43, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The parenthetical aside "($4,750 plus the expense of stagehands in 2008)" should probably put "in 2008" after the dollar figure, not after the stagehands, whose unstated expense does not need to be modified by what year was under discussion.
The table containing attendance, music and dance figures has these words below it: "Source: Chicago Tribune". In my browser window, the word "Source" directly follows the article body line ending "...a dozen music and dance groups. The twelve...", yielding (from their proximity) an apparent line reading "...a dozen music and dance groups. The twelve Source: Chicago Tribune." Is there a way that a border can be thrown around the table so that it stands further apart from the article body text?Binksternet (talk) 22:51, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I fixed the table so the source is within the borders (at least in IE 8). Is this what you wanted? Thanks for pointing this out, Ruhrfisch><>°°13:52, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I added a margin one em wide to the left and below the table, after asking the missus for advice (she's the expert HTML whiz of the house.) Binksternet (talk) 20:47, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
SupportComment - Concise and well-written. Nice images, too. Some minor comments:
“The theater is the culmination of 'years of planning by Chicago’s philanthropic, arts, business and government leaders' including groups like Music of the Baroque which are now residents in the venue.” Does Music of the Baroque operate out of the facility or just perform there? And is it only them? Perhaps “groups like Music of the Baroque, which now performs there.”
Thanks for your comments - my understanding is that Music of the Baroque performs there regularly, but has its own headquarters elsewhere - see their official history online. Will respond to your other points tomorrow. Ruhrfisch><>°°03:26, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I changed it to The theater is the culmination of "years of planning by Chicago’s philanthropic, arts, business and government leaders", including groups like Music of the Baroque which now perform there regularly. Is this better? Ruhrfisch><>°°15:18, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
“The plan also resulted in the extension of Chicago’s performing arts district east to Lake Michigan … " East from where?
My impression is that the performing arts district was in the Loop west of Michigan Avenue before, but will let Tony answer this for sure. Thanks, Ruhrfisch><>°°15:18, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, the sentence has been changed to "The plan also extended Chicago’s performing arts district, which had been predominantly west of Michigan Avenue, east towards Lake Michigan, and linked it more with the Museum Campus and Michigan Avenue cultural institutions.[9][10]" - hopefully this is clearer? Ruhrfisch><>°°14:04, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
“The Harris Theater is a privately owned institution serving mostly local mid-size non-profit arts companies and projects, including those sponsoring touring artists such as Old Town School of Folk Music … “ Also reads oddly. Is Old Town School a sponsor? Perhaps “including those, like Old Town School of Folk Music, who sponsor touring artists.”
“The MacArthur Foundation enables numerous performing arts groups to have an artistic home base at the theater, where they share hundreds of thousands of dollars in grants.” Can this be clarified? Is it the grants that do the enabling, or is there more to their support?
As I understand it the Theater serves as a performing venue that has costs. I imagine the grant funds stage hands and clean up crews. The theater makes it possible for all the small groups to share the cost of such functions at a wholesale rate and the Foundation probably picks up a lot of these costs through their grants.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:23, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Makes sense, but might be a bit unclear. Maybe something as simple as "The MacArthur Foundation funds numerous performing arts groups, enabling them to have an artistic home ..." -Nasty Housecat (talk) 04:10, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I changed the sentence to " For example, in 2009 the MacArthur Foundation gave the theater $150,000 over three years "in support of a subsidized usage program for smaller arts organizations".[43][33][44]" and added a ref to the foundation's report on the grant. I thought a direct quote on a specific example might be clearer. Ruhrfisch><>°°16:20, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"In 2009–10, the theater introduced a pair of discounted ticket programs." Is the “pair of” required? It makes it seem like they need describing.
“By providing a regular performing venue, the Harris Theater has also raised the profile of dance in Chicago.” Strictly speaking, the source says it has raised the profile of local dance groups. That seems like a different claim.
It is possible to raise the profile of a few small companies without necessarily doing anything for profile of dance in a place like Chicago -- that would be a much bigger deal. That is how I read it. The theater benefited the dance companies, certainly, and that was all the was being claimed. Is that hairsplitting? -Nasty Housecat (talk) 04:10, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I changed it to a brief direct quote from the Frommer's guide: "By providing a regular performing venue, the Harris Theater has also "raised the profile of local dance groups" in Chicago.[38]". Thanks for clarifying the distinction, Ruhrfisch><>°°21:10, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Can the External links be pared down? The map links mostly duplicate the maps already here. The archive links take you to mostly program announcements and reviews rather than information about the theater. The calendar info is available at the official website (already linked). And the Twitter link just seems out of place here.
I removed the Loop map as it does not even show the theater, the Twitter link as it can be reached from the theater's official website (which is linked), and the calendar info link. I kept the official Millennium Park map link (it also includes a brief description of all the features in the park), the official theater website, and the newspaper article archives, for 4 ELs. Thanks, Ruhrfisch><>°°18:45, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm concerned that the lead includes information about who performed in the last two years - this seems like it will need to be updated yearly, leading to a longer lead. Can we perhaps just mention something along the lines of "Performances through this series have included ..." with two names?
I used your suggestion and included the San Francisco Ballet and Baryshnikov as they seemed the biggest two names (if it were three names I would add Sondheim). Thanks, Ruhrfisch><>°°15:32, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Since it is a theater for dance and music, I added Sondheim - other names were both dance. If three is too many, please say which dance name to remove. Ruhrfisch><>°°16:17, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"as a less than ideal venue for jazz groups because of its cost and size." - this is ambiguous. Is it that the size is bad for the sound of the jazz, or that jazz groups can't attract as large an audience? And how does cost factor into this? I know the full explanation is in the body, but the lead needs to make a little more sense
I tweaked this in the lead and used the word "cavernous" from the source in the body to express how the theater is seen as too large for jazz by some. Thanks, Ruhrfisch><>°°15:32, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is much clearer now, but the sentence is now a bit wordy and repetitive - it uses "venue" three times. Any way to reword it to be a bit more concise? Karanacs (talk) 16:12, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The lead is somewhat repetitive. Example: both the second and third paragraphs essentially begin with a sentence telling us that the theater was built for local music/dance organizations.
Is there any more background from the MacArthur Foundation study which would be useful here? It might be nice to know what options were available for performing arts in pre-1990 Chicago and why they were inadequate.
There are two sentences on the study on the Harris Theater's website's History section; the information from them is parahrased in the article already. The MacArthur Foundation does not have the study online and I have not found it online searching. So much as I agree it would be interesting to know more details, they are not readily available. Thanks, Ruhrfisch><>°°15:42, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I understand that the study isn't available we can't have info on it. However, can we find anything elsewhere about the state of performing arts in Chicago pre-1990? Anything from the newspaper? When the theater was announced, were there newspaper/magazine articles that delved into why it was being built? Karanacs (talk) 16:12, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I just emailed the MacArthur Foundation asking for a copy of the study. Looking at Google News, I found a fair number of articles that detailed the various proposed plans for the Music and Dance theater after 1990 (it took over a decade before construction started - there were lots of changes in plans and proposed locations before they settled on Millennium Park). I do not think that this article needs to go into all the possible sites, etc. I did not find any pre-1990 articles, but I did find this 1993 article from the Tribune "No room to dance Shrinking performance space tests ingenuity of top troupes". I only read the abstract, but it points out how dependent dance troupes without "homes" were on finding performance space, and how the haves protected their own interests first (Lyric Opera (LO) made one theater into rehearsal and storage space, which removed it from the pool for itinerant troupes; LO's home theater was being renovated when LO was not using it - no problem for LO, but big trouble for other users). The Music of the Baroque homepage's history also goes into some detail how they used to perform only in churces- the Harris Theater gave them a more secure and performer friendly space they could count on. Not sure if this is OR or SYNTH. Ruhrfisch><>°°14:31, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's exactly the kind of information I was hoping could be found. Something along the lines of "The Chicago Tribune reported that ...." followed by "In 1990, a study by the foundation also identified a similar issue..." Karanacs (talk) 19:49, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I have added the 1993 "No room to dance" story to the section and as a ref and have rewritten the first few sentences to make it all flow (hopefully). Ruhrfisch><>°°21:13, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The theater is the culmination of "years of planning by Chicago’s philanthropic, arts, business and government leaders" including groups like Music of the Baroque, which now perform there regularly - does this mean that there were committees to determine how to build this theater, or that there were committees to determine that a theater was needed? Are there any more details on the plan and how it was developed?
I tweaked the sentence to show it was a committee to determine how to build the theater, but do not have any more details - sorry. Thanks, Ruhrfisch><>°°03:04, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I changed it from "The theater is the culmination of "years of planning by Chicago’s philanthropic, arts, business and government leaders" including groups like Music of the Baroque, which now perform there regularly." to "Once the need was identified, the theater was the culmination of "years of planning by Chicago’s philanthropic, arts, business and government leaders"..." Here is the diff. I can try and change it more, if needed. Ruhrfisch><>°°21:38, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Can we get a few more details on the Montgomery Ward height restrictions?
Tony may have more on this, and has access to the books used (I do not). It may be that the books have more details on the two questions directly above too. Ruhrfisch><>°°03:04, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The adjacent Jay Pritzker Pavilion is classified as a work of art (and not a structure) to avoid the restrictions. Is that worth including? Ruhrfisch><>°°03:14, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Macaluso book has the most detail that I recall. I don't currently have that book but I might be able to get it and I spend a lot of time online at Borders and they may have it. I will check this afternoon when I pass by there.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:03, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Tony added a fair amount more on the background of the height restrictions, and I just added the pavilion as artwork dodge. Is this better? Ruhrfisch><>°°16:40, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's good information, but perhaps it can be summarized or massaged a little more. Also, is there information on what the actual height restrictions are? Karanacs (talk) 19:49, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Do we need to know the details of the other Harris donations?
I presume you are suggesting cutting down "The Harrises have a history of philanthropy: in 1993 they gave $7 million ($10.5 million in current dollars) to fund the Joan and Irving Harris Concert Hall at the Aspen Music Festival and School in Aspen, Colorado,[21] and they were the primary benefactors of the Irving B. Harris Graduate School of Public Policy Studies at the University of Chicago, and several other causes for the arts and youth,[2][20]". Do you want it to be totally eliminated, cut to just the first phrase of "The Harrises have a history of philanthropy" or could we include something like "The Harrises have a history of philanthropy for institutions such as Joan and Irving Harris Concert Hall at the Aspen Music Festival and School in Aspen, Colorado and the Irving B. Harris Graduate School of Public Policy Studies at the University of Chicago"--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 04:31, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think something short along the lines of "The Harrises had a long history of philanthropy benefitting the arts." would be sufficient. Karanacs (talk) 16:12, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't like the three pictures wedged together in the beginning of the Architecture section. They are small, which to my poor eyesight then appears as just a bunch of lines - I had to click on the leftmost and center pictures and open them up full size to understand what they were supposed to be. Furthermore, I don't think the pictures add that much to the article. At the very least, I'd get rid of the one on the left. Perhaps either the middle or rightmost could stay and be made a bit bigger so that we can see them (both is probably overkill)?
Jay Pritzker Pavilion, which has the benefit that Millennium Park's indoor and outdoor performance venues share a loading dock, rehearsal - now we're assuming that readers know that the Paviliion is the outdoor performance venue. Perhaps this sentence could be restructured a bit. Also, was the theater built first, or was the pavilion? which takes advantage of the other's effort?
The park was a unified effort by one planner. I don't know that either is taking advantage of the other. However, I have clarified their respective roles in the LEAD so that it is not sudden information at this point.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:30, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I tweaked the sentences on Jay Pritzker Pavilion to make it clearer that they were built at about the same time (JPP 1999-2004, HT 2002-2003) and some other tweaks. Is this better? Thanks, Ruhrfisch><>°°15:20, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I got lost in the paragraph that's full of numbers. Perhaps this would be better served in a table (replacing the phot of random performers on stage - which could be any stage anywhere).
I think the third paragraph of the Architecture section was meant originally. I tried to fix it but moving some of the figures / numbers to a caption, removing one figure (the height of proscenium), combining two (the stage height and depth are the same, and reorganized the remaining numbers to try and make them flow better / be grouped together better. Is this OK? Apologies as I think this was lost due to my internet issues. Ruhrfisch><>°°04:00, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This sentence is an opinion - The theater's sightlines and acoustics provide "an unusually modern and stainless-steel bolstered environment" for experiencing performances, can it please be attributed in the text?
Lots of repetitive phrasing in the first paragraph of Local performers. "When the theater opened...dozen groups" followed immediately by "The twelve are" and then "When the Harris Theater opened." Can this be reworked a bit?
This sentence needs work When the Harris Theater opened in 2003, it provided a goal for aspiring small dance companies like Luna Negra Dance Theater;[35] by 2006, Luna Negra had achieved its goal of performing at the theater, and returned there in 2007. It's overly wordy and not clear.
I changed it to After the 2003 opening, small dance companies aspired to perform in the state-of-the-art theater;[39] one such troupe, Luna Negra Dance Theater, achieved its goal and performed there in 2006 and 2007.[40][41] Is this better? If you have any ideas, please feel free... thanks, Ruhrfisch><>°°04:43, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The article repeats the opinion that the theater "raised the profile of local dance groups" in Chicago without attributing this. It then goes on to talk about the Frommer's and Fodor's new editions. I'm concerned that this might be synthesis. We don't know what the previous profile was, and I'm not sure that it's appropriate to do our own comparison of, say the 2000 edition of Frommer's vs the 2010 edition.
It is a direct quotation and I have attributed it to the 2005 Frommer's Irreverent Guide to Chicago. So the sentence now clearly identifies the source and year of the direct quotation that the profile of dance groups was raised, followed by quotes from more recent guides (years also given in the text) by Frommer's and Fodor's. Is this clearer? Ruhrfisch><>°°15:41, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The first sentence is much better with the attribution, thanks. For the next two sentences, though, do those books actually talk about these performances in conjunction with talking about raising local dance profiles? Otherwise, I think it's synthesis.
They do not explicitly talk about the profile of dance troupes. I was not sure what else to do, so I moved the raising the profile sentence so it is last in the paragraph (so the other statements do not seem to follow from it). The paragraph is now in reverse chronological order in terms of works quoted - is this better? Thanks, Ruhrfisch><>°°04:43, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"The attempt to facilitate modest-sized performance groups has been appreciated;" - "appreciated" seems like the wrong word when used in this context. Can we really say that the two foundations "appreciate" the attempt?
To me it seems too trivial to mention the discounted ticket program for the last 90 minutes before a performance
The point of that is in relation to earlier complaints that the theater was to expensive. They have introduced two types of discounted ticket programs. I think it makes sense to elaborate on them. They could become a tradition of some sort. On broadway there are different traditions for discounted tickets like the TKTS and individual theaters releasing last minute tickets. This is in keeping with discounted ticket info like that.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 04:45, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The article mentions that the Harris Theater has taken some business from the Chicago Theatre, and also mentions a new competition with the local Symphony and the Auditorium Theatre. Is there any information on whether the Harris's programs have adversely affected the other venues?
I do not have any articles to back this up, but it is my perception that the Chicago Theater district is blossoming. For example, Now that the Joffrey Ballet makes appearances at the Harris, that probably frees up some nights at the Auditorium Theatre for more broadway-type productions. The theater has really just kept the small- and medium-sized groups from getting squeezed out by the increasing Broadway in Chicago demand.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:43, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Three of the four paragraphs in Visiting performers start with "The theater"
do we really need to know that the theater was mentioned in the NYT?
For borderline notable articles I commonly throw the name of the most notable reliable sources into the actual text. That was the purpose of this mention. This is not an internationally known theater. However, I think I found content that makes the theater notable in other ways later so I will remove this.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 04:39, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The three pictures in the Reception section are likewise very small and hard to see. The ones on the left and right seem to be almost the same - do we really need both of them? I like the one in the middle and suggest that it be moved to the architecture section, replacing the others.
"it is able to experiment by venturing along new paths" - how?
I replaced that with a direct quote from the article so that it now reads He also notes that because of the theater's success it is able "to present an increasing number of risky, sometimes boundary-busting events the likes of which audiences will hear nowhere else in the area". Thanks, Ruhrfisch><>°°19:30, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You don't need to mention the discounted ticket programs in two places - I'd leave it in reception and remove the details from the other section
In reception, do we really need to repeat the praise about the acoustics, sightlines, etc? This is mentioned at least 3 times and should be tightened up.
I apologize - I have been having intermittent internet access issues and lost web access a few minutes after I started my edits last night (which I had not saved of course). Ruhrfisch><>°°15:32, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I believe we have addressed all of your concerns or at least asked how you would like us to proceed in addressing them. Thanks again, Ruhrfisch><>°°03:14, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Y'all have done good work so far. I've stricken some, added comments to some, and noticed a few that weren't address. Good luck! Karanacs (talk) 16:12, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The River Parrett is the largest river in Somerset, England. The article covers the rivers course and its significant role in the history of the area, with all significant structures for road and rail crossings and flood prevention described. It also covers the geology and ecology of the river. Since it's previous nomination in January, when it had no support or opposition but several comments, it has undergone major revisions by the nominators and an extended peer review (on the talk page) by Ruhrfisch with copy-editing by Malleus Fatuorum. Jezhotwells and SP-KP also provided significant input with Redrose64 leading a major revision of the referencing format. We now believe that all previously identified issues have been resolved and it meets the FA criteria, Nominated by Pyrotec and — Rodtalk20:04, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The license is fine, however the website is temporal, and there is no guarantee we can confirm copyright in three years time, often we get cc images one week and relabeled non-free the next week. If we have a wp:otrs ticket, we have a permanent record of the image being PD Fasach Nua (talk) 20:57, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Geograph site FAQ on use clearly sets out the terms, and it has been stable for 5 years. Other images from Geograph are used in this article (& in many of the other FAs listed at Wikipedia:UKGEO#Featured_articles) so I am at a loss as to why particular action is needed for this image (or what you are asking me to do)?— Rodtalk21:09, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sources review: In general the sources look comprehensive, with just a few issues mainly involving reference formats:-
First book listed is Blair, John (ed.) (2007) Author and chapter number missing (see Hollinrake and Rippon entries below)
This entry to the whole book appears to be needed for the Hollinrake and Rippon refs but isn't to a specific chapter
I have added publisher & ISBN details to the Hollinrake and Rippon entries. The genereal Blair entry is no longer strictly necessary, but I've left it. Brianboulton (talk) 09:49, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Costen book lacks publisher location
Done
Farr book is dated 1954 yet has an ISBN. This suggests that this is a later edition
Formatting of on-line sources: Where the origin is a print sources, e.g. The Independent on Sunday, the source should be italicised, otherwise not. Check 3, 8, 9 and others.
For consistency, titles should come before publisher (see 13)
Comment I know it's the stupid template, but I doubt Combwich et al have ever been called "cities" before. Can this be changed without the thing blowing up? Johnbod (talk) 12:15, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I presume this comment relates to the infobox Template:Geobox/type/river & I presume comes from a difference between US English where any small village is a city and UK English which attaches special meaning to "city". I am certainly not able to fiddle with the code which generates the infobox - but would welcome input from those with more expertise.— Rodtalk12:19, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I changed it to villages, if you want it to be something else it should be obvious now where to change that, it can be whatever you want. Kmusser (talk) 20:48, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks - but can it be more than 1 city_type as Bridgwater and Langport are towns & Cannington and Combwich are villages? I tried to change to 2 different types ie city_type=Towns & city_type2=Villages but the template didn't seem to like that.— Rodtalk21:37, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have examined the source of {{geobox}}, and also the documentation at Template:Geobox/legend, and it seems that |city_type= may be any value you like, but it's applied to the whole row. Kmusser added |city_type=Villages, |city1_type=Villages, |city2_type=Villages and |city3_type=Villages to the article, but only the first of these is recognised: the other three are not. Thus, you could have either |city_type=Towns or |city_type=Towns and villages. --Redrose64 (talk) 22:00, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for investigating. I have changed it to city_type=Town and villages, as the only option which covers all issues.— Rodtalk07:08, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support by Ruhrfisch: As noted above, I did a very detailed peer review on this and made the map in the Geobox, as well as some edits. I find this meets the FAC requirements and also like the group effort that went into improving this. I have a few quibbles / questions that do not detract from my support.*This might be American English vs British English, but isn't "northwest" one word? The Parrett then flows north west for approximately another 10 miles (16 km) to Bridgwater through the Somerset Levels past Aller,...
I have asked for expert advice as I believe both are acceptable, but would agree on the need for consistency.— Rodtalk07:08, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The River Severn is introduced without proper context in The rate and direction of flow of the Parrett is therefore dependant on the state of the tide on the River Severn. I think the article needs to make clearer the relation of the Severn to the Bristol Channel.
Hmm, here are the three sentences in the text now: The lower Parrett has a fall of only 1 foot per mile (0.2 m/km) between Langport and Bridgwater;[3] and it drains into the Bristol Channel. Here, the Severn Estuary has a tidal range of 14 metres (46 ft).[19] The rate and direction of flow of the Parrett is therefore dependant on the state of the tide on the River Severn. Could the second sentence be clearer to those not familiar with the local geography - perhaps something like "To the northeast of the River Parrett's mouth, the Bristol Channel becomes the Severn Estuary, which has a tidal range of 14 metres (46 ft).[19]" Not perfect, but hoefully it gives the idea of what I think is missing / needed better. Ruhrfisch><>°°16:06, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is a slight problem with this sentence This natural border endured for almost a century until further fighting between the Anglo-Saxons and Britons in the mid-8th century, when the border shifted west to its current location between Somerset and Devon.[36] While I understand its menaing, it is no longer a border between the Britons and the Anglo-Saxons (unless I am quite mistaken).
Could the comma in brackets be removed to improve the reader's ease of understanding Extensive land recovery was undertaken in the Somerset Levels by land owners between 1770 and the end of the Napoleonic Wars[,] in 1815, as part of a general scheme of agricultural improvements.[46]
Done
"Improvements" is plural, "this" is singular: Further drainage improvements were needed in the 19th century; and this involved the use of mechanical pumping engines, originally steam powered (see Westonzoyland Pumping Station Museum), but later powered by electricity.[47]
Vincent Stuckey and Walter Bagehot should be identified by their full names (and Bagehot linked) earlier in the article at Construction, at first mention (currently only as "Stuckey and Bagehot" there
Done
Last sentence, second paragraph of Construction - unclear which lock exactly is meant The lock has since been replaced by a sluice gate to control flooding.[9]
Most mink in the UK were brought in to be farmed but then escaped into the wild, but I will look for a reference to support this assertion.— Rodtalk07:08, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"The rearing of mink on farms was established in Britain in 1929. Inevitably some escaped into the wild but there are no records of them breeding until 1957, when young mink were seen on the River Teign in Devon. Since then there have been widespread reports of breeding in England ..." (Burton 1992, pp. 83–84) harv error: no target: CITEREFBurton1992 (help) --Redrose64 (talk) 14:38, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks - assumed it was something like that. I would add something on this - even if it is just the phrase "mink, escaped from breeding farms,"Ruhrfisch><>°°16:06, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
CommentI've returned to this article after some 2 months away from it... I see that Citation bot (talk·contribs) has got at it, so all the {{cite web}}, {{cite book}} etc. became {{citation}} on 12 May 2010. This bot is supposed to tally the {{citation}} versus the other types; decide which of the two is in majority, and adjust the minority ones. Unfortunately it was buggy, and changed a number of articles from {{cite xxx}} to {{citation}}even though there were no pre-existing {{citation}}, and River Parrett was one such victim, with this edit. I had this happen to other articles, so informed the bot operator. It seems that the operator had believed that Harvard references would only link to {{citation}}, and misunderstood how the {{cite xxx}} templates work, not realising the significance of |ref=harv - which I had made sure was provided everywhere necessary.
Right. Rant over. Does anybody mind if I put all those {{citation}} back how they were? Once that is done, I can look at a problem which I've noticed today: at the end of March I'd managed to get all the {{cite book}} (bar one - "Priestley Evans, Evan David (1931). Two papers : entitled ...") down to the "Bibliography" section, with the main text containing {{harvnb}} which link to those (I left the {{cite journal}}, {{cite map}}, {{cite news}} and {{cite web}} in the text). I now see that a number of full refs to books have crept into the main text. I'd like to get those consistent with the other book refs (short note in text, full citation at the bottom). To do that I need to know which ones are books, which {{citation}} does not tell me... --Redrose64 (talk) 14:38, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That would be great. The error was probably mine in using citation bot & not checking the output closely enough. The only books I can see which have "crept in" are: Arthur, William (1857) (text). An etymological dictionary of family and Christian names. With an essay on their derivation and import. New York: Sheldon, Blakeman & Co. p. 213. and Lawrence, J.F. (revised and completed by Lawrence, J.C.) (2005). A History of Bridgwater. Chichester: Phillimore. ISBN1-86077-363-X. Chapter 8: "The Medieval Port of Bridgwater". Hopefully this would also resolve the outstanding issue above about the italicisation of print sources.— Rodtalk17:05, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done, and done - two edits - one to get the citation back to cite xxx - the other to get three inline cite book to be consistent with the rest. These include the "Priestley Evans, Evan David (1931). Two papers : entitled ..." which I had not done last time.
Question Is the last mentioned a single author, last names "Priestley Evans" and forenames "Evan David" - or two authors named "Priestley Evans" and "Evan David"? --Redrose64 (talk) 13:22, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not familiar with that reference, which seems to have been obtained via Google books; however, the British Library catalogue [18] treats him as an single author, surname: Evans. Pyrotec (talk) 13:50, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support and comment Generally OK, but the Celtic languages used in Wales effectively means Welsh. I don't know of any other Celtic language spoken in Wales then (or now) Jimfbleak - talk to me?06:00, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'd personally say "the Celtic languages" or Brythonic is more accurate than "Welsh", in this particular case. The Parrett is about halfway between Wales and Cornwall; what's actually claimed is that the name derives from the Celtic language spoken across western Britain before the Saxons reached the Severn and thus split Welsh from Cornish and Breton, not that people in present-day Wales named it. – iridescent17:23, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This appears to be a footbridge of recent construction (photos here) and here) but I can't find any other sources for information about it.— Rodtalk18:56, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Is there a more reliable source for "Roman Somerset […] lasted until 409"? This dubiously precise to me; the Roman army had certainly been withdrawn from Britain by 410, but that didn't mean Britain (Somerset or otherwise) had left the Empire. At least part of Roman Britain still existed circa 450, when the Groans of the Britons appeal to Rome for reinforcements was made, and geography would suggest that Somerset would have been the last places reached by the Saxons;
I agree this is probably over precise. You have sent me scurrying to my books & I find in the chapter on Romano-British Somerset in Victoria History of the Counties of England vol 1. page 210 says "when about 410 the Roman rule in Britain ended , the so-called 'departure of the Romans' did not mean an emigration of alien officials, soldiers and traders.....It was administrative not racial. Rome ceased to send high military and civil officials... but officials were not numerous.. and we may believe that not many Romans actually departed." How about if I change that to "around the beginning of the 5th century"?— Rodtalk19:36, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think that makes more sense. The fall of the Western Roman Empire wasn't like the British withdrawal from India (or the Turkish conquest of the Eastern Roman Empire), but a gradual breakdown of ties between the provinces and Rome/Constantinople—to set a date where Britannia ends and Britain begins seems overly precise. – iridescent20:26, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Do we know anything about what happened when the locks were abandoned? Gut reaction would be that demolition of locks on a canalised river would either have the same effect on whatever was downstream of it as a breached dam, or have led to the sudden appearance of a set of waterfalls, since presumably the water levels on each side of the locks were different. Did the river remain navigable after the closure of the locks, or is the "right of navigation" an in-name-only legal relic like the right to drive sheep over London Bridge?
Makes sense—but does that mean boats now need to be ported around the weirs and sluices should they want to exercise that "right to navigate to Oath Lock"? – iridescent20:26, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Although the lock gates still exist they are not currently operational. The canal is effectively landlocked and isolated from the river. The boats have either been crane or slip launched. –– Jezhotwells (talk) 18:45, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(Edit Conflict) Not quite, Rod. There are two sets of parallel locks between the dock's tidal basin and the River Parrett: the small one for boats (usable anytime) and the large one for ships (usable only at high tide); both were blocked off when the dock was offically closed (and that is what Iridescent is refering to. There is another set of boat locks at the far end between the dock and the Bridgwater and Taunton Canal which (I beleive) are still useable. There was a basin and lock at Huntworth: long filled in; and at the far end of the canal there is a lock into the River Tone. I believe boats can travel from the Tone into the dock, but not into the Parrett. Pyrotec (talk) 20:35, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Supportwith a few small suggestions or questions. This is a well-researched, nicely illustrated article about a very interesting river.
Geobox
*The length is given as 50 miles in the geobox but 37 miles in the lead and the Course section.
History
*"An alternative explanation, based on Old English, is a derivation from Pedair or Pedride from pedr meaning four and the Old Cornish Rit meaning flow, which in this case would relate to the four flows or streams: the Tone, Yeo, Isle and Parrett,[24] which is based on the explanation given in Ekwall's 1928 book English River Names." - A bit too complex perhaps. Maybe a terminal period after "Parrett" and then a second sentence attributing this explanation to Ekwall?
*"Whichever derivation is correct, the name Parrett and its spelling variations has been in use... ". - "Have" rather than "has"?
Landscape
*"The 19th-century Industrial Revolution opened up mass markets leading to further expansion of the industry: in particular, from 1850 when the Duty (tax) on bricks was abolished." - Lowercase "duty"?
*"use of the Polden Hills roadway would allow more rapid movement to Ilchester" - "Allowed" rather than "would allow"?
*"The White House Inn, a licensed victualler and part-owner of the ferry, on the Pawlett bank traded from 1655 to 1897;" - How about "traded on the Pawlett bank" instead of "on the Pawlett bank traded"?
Port of Bridgwater
*"Historically, the main port on the river was at Bridgwater; the river being bridged at this point, with the first bridge being constructed in 1200 AD." - Three "bridges" and a "with plus -ing". Maybe "Historically, the main port on the river was at Bridgwater, where a span crossed the river from 1200 AD onwards"?
*"In the 1960s, British Railways the owner of the docks, which were limited by the size of its locks to boats of maximum size 180 by 31 feet (55 by 9.4 m),[82] took the decision that they were commercially non-viable." - Comma after Railways? Replace "took the decision" with "decided"?
Geology
*"The reduction in water levels that resulted put local ecosystems at risk, with peat wastage in pasture fields was occurring at rates of 1–3 ft (0.3–0.8 m) over 100 years." - Something wrong here. Maybe a semicolon after "risk" and delete "with" to make a sentence?
Thanks very much for your support. Your comment, however, about moving Bridges to the History section worries me somewhat. There is a format for "river" articles and that convention demands discussion of the river from source to mouth. The bridges section is written in reverse sequence from mouth to port because that sequence allows and constraints maritime trade - Bridgwater was (is) a port (and being a single small section it could conveniently "put to one side" the standard format for river articles). How far up a river ships and boats can get is determined by river geometry and enginering structures. The information in Bridges could, obviously, be moved into History; but a more logical ordering of the current information would be by date sequence, not from mouth to port. I would also be somewhat concerned that the article could get out of balance with a large History section. I'm interested, however, to learn whether there is a wider view on this. We can obviously move it, if it is considered desirable. Pyrotec (talk) 20:39, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I like the current organization of the article and in particular how the bridges and structures are handled. While I am sure there are other ways that the article could be organized, this works and works well (in my opinion). If bridges were part of History, I think they would alsmost have to be discussed in chronological order and agree the upstream order now used works better logically (as it relates to use of the river). It may also be that there are bridges that no longer exists that would need to be discussed if this were part of history. On a different note, Landscape and Port of Bridgewater are subsections (look at the header level in edit mode). Hope this helps, Ruhrfisch><>°°16:05, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
I am nominating this for featured article because the article just passed a WP:MIL A-class review and I feel it should be able to reach even higher. I eventually plan on making this the main article of a featured topic about these early American battleships. This is my first FAC and I am relatively new to wikipedia, so I would like to ask reviewers to go easy on the jargon. Yoenit (talk) 11:05, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The remaining text is fine, can you link to the specific instance of File:Bb bismarck.png the image is cropped from, there are many versions of this file, and the current version doesn't have this image in it Fasach Nua (talk) 13:39, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 32: Not necessary to give the web address and the publishing organisation's name
Fixed
Ref 36: How do we know that this source is reliable? Who is responsible for it? Has any other organisation recommended it?
This also came up during the A class review. The website has a credit page which shows that Patrick McSherry made publications in several (naval) historical magazines and served as an advisor for four different video documentaries about the Spanish-American War. That being said I recently stumbled upon a publication from the Oregon Historical Society which also mentions the nickname, so I will shift it around later today.
Done, ref 36 now refers to an article in the Oregon Historical quarterly, which should be reliable. I left Spanamwar in as an external link, as the site provides a wealth of background information about the Battle of Santiago.
Support -- apart from a few missing hyphens, I really couldn't find anything much wrong (on that subject, I was a bit surprised to see Spanish–American War with a dash not a hyphen, but I see it's that way in the article too)... Anyway, as far as this article goes, prose, detail, structure, referencing and supporting materials look good - well done! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:52, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
All spanish-American war mentions originally used hyphens, but I switched them around when I noticed they hit a redirect page. Yoenit (talk) 13:09, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
With respect to "...their freeboard was too low to the water to deal well with the waves of the open ocean." Freeboard is a distance, and cannot be "too low". I am not sure of the correct use of the terminology, but this isn't it.
Your problem here seems to be that I can not describe terms freeboard in terms of low and high, but should use short and long instead? At least one source (Reilly & Scheina on p. 60.) talk about a "low freeboard" and I am pretty sure that if I check the others I will find the same description. Also try searching for "short freeboard" on google ("short+freeboard" 450 hits) and "low freeboard" ("low+freeboard" 14,700 hits). If you think "low" is fine but I can simply not refer to it using "too low" it is simply a matter using a different sentence structure, which is no problem with me.
After reading your comment again I think your problem had to do with the "too" instead of the "low". You said a freeboard can not be "too low", well these books [20][21][22][23][24][25] disagree and I am sure you can find dozens more of relevant hits on google books [26].
Numbers of Google hits are not taken seriously as arguments. Per Freeboard (nautical) "In sailing and boating, freeboard[1] means the distance from the waterline to the upper deck level". Note that freeboard is defined as a distance. What you have said is equivalent to "one meter was too low". "The deck was too low to the water" or "The freeboard was too small" are ways of expressing what you mean. Doug (talk) 18:47, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am not a native english speaker and the nuances of the language are not easy to understand here. You say that because freeboard is defined as a "distance" it should not be described in terms of "low" and "high" correct? Or am I allowed to talk about a low freeboard, but just not say it was "too low" Yoenit (talk) 19:23, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I apologise for not being clear: I will try to explain better with some examples:
Correct and informal: "The aircraft was low."
Correct but imprecise: "The distance from the aircraft to the water was too low."
Incorrect: "The distance from the aircraft to the water was too low to the water."
Incorrect: "The distance from the deck to the water was too low to the water."
Incorrect: "The freeboard was too low to the water."
Correct and informal: "The deck was too low to the water."
Correct: "The freeboard was too small."
"The freeboard was too low" is okay, since although the sentence mixes "low" as a relative magnitude and an independent metric of height, it will be understood.
In general, it is most precise to use "high" and "low" exclusively in the context of describing height where the endpoints of the measurement are obvious, as in a high or low building. For aircraft, altitude is preferred.
Regardless of the use of high or low in describing freeboard, it cannot be high or low 'to the water' - this is already included in the definition of freeboard. Doug (talk) 20:58, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Allright, I will concede. Enough time has been wasted on something trivial. "low freeboard" is common naval terminology, but grammatical improvements have to start somewhere, so why not here. Yoenit (talk) 21:50, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You state that these ships were "equivalent to contemporary European ships", then you state that "Their turrets lacked counterweights, and the main belt armor was placed too low to be effective under most conditions." This is an apparent contradiction.
Equivalent in terms of armor thickness, speed, and fire power, the factors people (and governments) compared battleships on. Yes they had design flaws, but so had most European ships at the time. I don't mind changing the term "equivalent" to something less strong though.
Changed "equivalent" into "comparable", which should convey the meaning that the ships are similar, though not exactly equal. If anybody has a better synonym please replace, but I don't know any.
I apologise, but I have made a personal rule of not going further in a review if there are two problems in the first paragraph of the introduction. Please check all possible instances of factual inconsistency or sloppy use of terminology. Doug (talk) 01:45, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No offense meant, but I do not think you have pointed out any factual inconsistencies or sloppy use of terminology yet. Thanks for your review and I hope you are willing to continue it once we have reached agreement on these points. Yoenit (talk) 06:48, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Massachusetts was scuttled off the coast of Pensacola in 1920 and used as an artillery target." Was it used as an artillery target before or after being scuttled - this implies after. Doug (talk) 21:23, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
After being scuttled. Information about it is rather scarce, but if I have to guess some part of the superstructure remained above the water and they fired on that. Yoenit (talk) 21:57, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
This rice rat from Costa Rica, Panama, Colombia, Venezuela, and Ecuador is the closest relative of Transandinomys bolivaris, which just became an FA. It doesn't have whiskers as striking as that species, but for once we do actually know a fair bit about its biology. I am looking forward to all reviews. Ucucha11:28, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Transandinomys bolivaris is the real long-whiskered rice rat—this is just its slightly less accomplished sister.
Lead. populations, which are now considered synonyms. populations? or names....
Was intended to refer to "names"; now clarified.
first sentence is pretty long
Split.
above, below. Do you mean back and sides are reddish brown, and belly is buff to white?
Yes, clarified a little.
After a gestation period of about 28 days, two to five young are born,... Two to five young are born after a gestation of about 28 days and they reach sexual maturity....? Or, animals reach sexual maturity at ... and after a gestation period of about 28 days, two to five young are born..... (might be chicken and egg argument).
Can't really see the problem here; neither wording seems superior over another.
right. It's a chicken/egg argument.
Taxonomy
The species remained lumped under Oryzomys capito until 1983... wish there was another way to say it was "lumped with miscellaneous rats under Oryzomys capito until...
I don't really see a problem with the current wording here.
Lumped is so inelegant.
should Talamanca Costa Rica be linked?
Talamanca has multiple meanings, and the one intended here (fide Musser et al., 1998, who discuss it) is a village that doesn't seem to be anywhere on Wikipedia.
Question: do these critters interbreed (when geographically possible)?
Not that we know. It has ample opportunity to interbreed with T. bolivaris, but there are no records of it. Hylaeamys megacephalus and Hylaeamys perenensis come close to its range, but are not known to quite reach it, so it's not possible.
Description
They are about as large.... They are similar in size to the...?
Why? The wording there is seems more simple.
but in T. talamancae the tail is longer and the hindfeet shorter... but the T. Talamancae have longer tails and shorter hindfeet?
I can't see how that is better than what is there.
sparsely haired... there's a better way to say that. But I don't know what it is. The tail is almost as long as the head, with little hair; the hair it has is brown on top and white underneath...?
It's not necessarily the hair that gives the color, and I don't see the problem with "sparsely haired"; it's not an unprecedented way to describe rice rat tails (Weksler et al., 2006, p. 3, also use it), and it doesn't seem overly technical to me.
skipping to reproduction, the last sentence before you list all the parasites, where Fleming estimates age, etc. That is reaaallllllly long with a lot of ands.
Added "in Spanish" for those two. Also fixed the number of Weksler 2006, here and on all other pages with this mistake. Thanks a lot for catching that. Can I blame it on the fact that the copy of the paper I always use has lost the cover page? I also noticed that Weksler's own page in fact has the same mistake. Ucucha12:23, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support and three comments. You're getting these down to a fine art, but three quibbles
I've been to Talamance, how come I missed this (: ?
except for one record from the far northwest (in Guanacaste Province) — Does one record justify the mapping shown?
Yes; rodents are not like birds which can just get lost while flying about, so when someone finds a rat somewhere, it means the area is part of the distribution. Musser et al. (1998, p. 157) also explicitly say the distribution starts in northwestern Costa Rica.
I don't find that argument totally convincing (I've seen a sea lion off the coast of Cornwall, for example), but for this species I assume that escapes are unlikely, so I'll accept that Jimfbleak - talk to me?12:43, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Marine mammals can swim about, and sea lions in particular are common in captivity; neither is true for rice rats. Thanks for supporting. Ucucha15:12, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Specimens that were once captured tend to be captured more frequently than those that have never been captured — Any significance or explanation?
Fixed the tense of that sentence. I recall that it complicated population estimates in Fleming's study, but I think we can just keep it as a fact from their biology. Why it is so, Fleming didn't say. Ucucha07:12, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
" Its habitat consists of lowland forests up to 1525 m (5000 ft) above sea level." What's a lowland forest? Does this refer to its elevation? Is this the Talamancan montane forests?
Well, lowland forests are in the lowlands; isn't that apparent? It doesn't occur in montane forest; there we've got Nephelomys devius.
link braincase; why not use the simpler "whiskers" for the lead (and perhaps pipe a link to vibrissae)?
Done, and glossed "vibrissae" (I prefer to use that term because it occurs more in the sources).
"T. talamancae lives on the ground" avoid abbreviations at start of paragraph
Fixed.
"Males move more and have larger home ranges than females." Do the 1st three words mean the males are less sedentary (just seems a bit odd to me)?
Yes, that's pretty common in animals. Males move around to find females.
worthwhile to link home range, gestation, parasites, sexual maturity, and conservation concern?
Linked everything except the last, which has nothing to link to.
last paragraph of lead is rather choppy, could use a bit of polish prose-wise
Rewrote a little.
link Talamanca
It's unclear what the Talamanca here refers to (discussed in Musser et al. 1998), and it's most likely a village that is apparently not mentioned on Wikipedia, so I kept it unlinked.
Yes, Gardner deserves an article, and I don't know why I didn't link to his article.
"... using morphological and DNA sequence data." based on what gene(s)?
IRBP, added.
"...but is not known to overlap with T. talamancae." overlap in range?
Yes, added.
"The fur is short, dense and soft;" clarify what species we're talking about here; the end of the previous paragraph mentions a bunch of rats
T. talamancae, added.
"... bases of the hairs plumbeous in color." I appreciate the wikt link, but maybe gloss as well so I don't have to open a new page to find out what this word means
lead-colored, added.
link molt
Done.
no-one bothered to measure the Ecuadorian's rat's ears??
Apparently. Measurements are usually taken in the field, because preserved skins may shrink or do other weird things, and the people who collected the sample in Ecuador apparently had a protocol that did not include measuring the ears.
"additional pair of supernumerary ribs is occasionally present." super-what?
Extra pair. In sigmodontines, such supernumerary ribs don't articulate with the vertebrae if I understand correctly.
"Both Robertsonian translocations and pericentric inversions are needed to explain the difference between the two groups." Since there is a fair bit of discussion about differences in karyotype, I don't think it would be out of place to have a sentence or two to explain what these fancy words are
Added.
"It is a forest species and occurs in both evergreen and deciduous forest." If you want, you could pipe these directly to the more specific coniferous forest and deciduous forest (I'm assuming if the reader's made it this far, they know what evergreen and deciduous mean)
Linked to the forest articles (not coniferous, but evergreen forest—tropical forests are often evergreen even though they don't contain a lot of conifers).
"In the laboratory, the gestation period is 28 days;[97] Linares reports that it is 20 to 30 days." 20-30 in the lab or in the wild?
Everyone asks this. :-) The problem is that "Talamanca" has several meanings and the one meant here is a small village that does not appear in Wikipedia. Ucucha04:54, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The variation in chromosome count I found intriguing. Is that unusual?
It's strongly suggestive that there are multiple species within what we now call T. talamancae. But polymorphism within a single species is not unusual in rodents. Ucucha04:54, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Conservation status section is stubby - if there is anything at all that can be added that'd be very helpful (any confirmation that numbers appear to be constant/increasing etc. no threats from intriduced spp.) if not never mind.
There's nothing else I could find. The only things that could perhaps be added are some further ways from the IUCN to say "it's fine"—the Red List account also says no conservation measures are needed and the population is stable. Ucucha04:54, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am nominating this for featured article because I feel that it deserves to have the bronze star back. Prior to this the article was promoted to Featured article when WP:FA itself was not worthy of anything. From that time, it was demoted and was then promoted as a GA. It has gone through numerous Peer reviews (4) and the article has been modelled keeping in mind WP:BIOGRAPHY, referring to present FAs like Michael Jackson and Janet Jackson. Hence, by the consensus of my fellow editors, I would like to promote this article to FA. --Legolas(talk2me)10:21, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Quick comment While copy-editing (which I hope to finish within a week from now) I found a bit of recentism. While in for the early part of her, you use just a year to indicate release date ("Madonna's third album, True Blue (1986)"), for later years you go the whole nine yards even for minor releases ("She released her third live album, Sticky & Sweet Tour, on March 30, 2010"). I suggest you go through the text once more, and review every date you used for level of detail you think is best.
I think her infobox genre should only be "Pop, dance"; dance-pop is a pop subgenre and hence redundant to it. She's not an electronic musician, but merely used electronics on her songs (the article it links to, EDM, is a dance subgenre). Rock is hardly a major style for her; being the focus of just one album or so.
Thank you for your comments Indopug, however for your point no. 3, I'm afraid this is the recent most best picture that we have for her. Others like those from the 2009 MTV Video Music Awards are poor in quality. You can check Commons:Madonna and may be point out if there are any better images than the one present. I will look to the other points. --Legolas(talk2me)03:42, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have taken care of the other concerns. Places like for eg — the date on which the Malawi adoption was finalized, or the divorce, or her R&R Hall of Fame induction — there the full dates have been kept, elsewhere its ambiguous like the rest of the article. --Legolas(talk2me)05:18, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Madonna Louise Ciccone --> "Madonna Louise Veronica Ciccone"
"1982–85: Madonna, Like a Virgin and marriage to Sean Penn"
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame listed the album as one of the Definitive 200 Albums of All Time.[29] --> Definitive 200 Albums of
All Time should be in quotation marks.
"1986–91: True Blue, Like a Prayer and the Blond Ambition Tour"
Madonna starred in the critically panned film Shanghai Surprise, and made her theatrical debut in a production of David Rabe's Goose and Tom-Tom, both co-starring Penn.[41] In 1987, Madonna starred in Who's That Girl, --> "Madonna starred" twice
In 1990, Madonna starred as "Breathless" Mahoney in the film adaptation of the comic book series Dick Tracy. It starred Warren Beatty --> Synonyms needed
Madonna decided to leave the Jennifer Lynch film Boxing Helena --> Did you mean "Jennifer Lynch's film"?
"1992–96: Maverick, Sex, Erotica, Bedtime Stories and Evita"
contained scenes of S&M and bondage" --> S&M (album)?
Madonna realized that her music career needed some dramatic changes in order to sustain herself in the long run. --> WP:OR?
American Life became the lowest selling album of her career --> As far as I know Hard Candy (Madonna album) has sold over 3.8 million copies.
Hard Candy is the recent most album and has sold 3.8 million in European+Oceanian markets alone, couple that with 725K in US and 300K in Canada, its well over 4 million. Hence AL is the lowest selling album of her career. --Legolas(talk2me)08:19, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The album won a Grammy Award for "Best Electronic/Dance Album". --> Consistency needed. In "1997–2002: Ray of Light, Music and Drowned World Tour" section you wrote "It reached number nineteen on the Hot 100 and won a Grammy Award for Best Song Written for a Motion Picture, Television or Other Visual Media.[30] (Grammy Award for Best Song Written for a Motion Picture, Television or Other Visual Media without quotation mark).
The use of religious symbols, such as the crucifix and Crown of Thorns, in the performance of "Live to Tell", caused the Russian Orthodox Church --> I think that the image File:Madonna-cross.jpg can be used.
If I'm not mistaken, the term "sophomore album" isn't a term that is widely recognized outside of the United States (and maybe the UK?). This should be changed to "second studio album" or "second album".
The title track "Like a Virgin" reached number one on the Billboard Hot 100 chart for six consecutive weeks. "reached number one... for six consecutive weeks". That sounds a bit odd. Maybe "topped the Billboard Hot 100 chart for six consecutive weeks"?
...adorned with the infamous "Boy Toy" belt buckle, and veil. Infamous how? As a reader not too familiar with Madonna in the 1980s, I have no idea what's infamous about it and there's no explanation as to why the belt buckle was infamous.
There are a lot of instances of "The same year...", "Same year...", "Later that year...". I tried switching it up a bit, but it still comes off as repetitive.
She debuted her new song...' I don't think "new" should be included in this sentence, considering the song was released 20 years ago. The fact that it was debuted that year should be sufficient enough information to imply it was a new song at the time.
Repetitive use of "U.S. number-X single" prevails here.
The latter's music video depicted Madonna committing murders and involved in accidents with cars... Would that be car accidents?
I notice that in one section, there's information of Madonna's pregnancy with Carlos Leon, while in the next, Guy Ritchie, but there's no information what happened in between with Leon and Madonna.
Support. A very well written article, with a well-balanced amount of information and nothing overly detailed. Good work! — ξxplicit19:09, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sources comments
In the references list, "Press release" should be written thus, not as "Release, Press" as though it was a person (refs 1 and 3) Other strange inversions include "Press, Associated", "Reporter, Staff", and lots of "Reporter, BBC"
For well-known newspapers and journals it is not necessary to add the name of the publisher (e.g. "The New York Times Company" etc.) The convention is only to include publisher details for relatively obscure publications.
I would suggest you remove unnecessary publisher details from many more of the newspapers and journals - Time, The Daily Telegraph, Chicago Sun-Times, Rolling Stone, Daily Mail, The Times. The Japan Times, etc. Maybe others. Nor is it necessary to give the "publisher" of broadcasting services such as CNN.Brianboulton (talk) 10:07, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have removed publisher info for many of them, though the major ventures like Nielsen and Jann Wenner are kept as they demand mention if they are cited. (It's present in their website). --Legolas(talk2me)05:58, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I suggest you to add more info about her highly publicized relationship with Sean Penn, about his abuse and violent habit which caused their divorce. Also, there is no information about her controversy during American Life era regarding the war/political theme of her work. I think it is the same important as her controversy with religious group. Baratayuda (talk) 04:38, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I added the line They filed under irreconciable differences, with Madonna's lawyer citing Penn's drinking problems and abusive nature as the primary case for the divorce paper filing.. Will that do? Also, the American Life video controversy has been addressed. --Legolas(talk2me)05:58, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Madonna embarked on her first concert tour in North America, titled The Virgin Tour, with the Beastie Boys as opening acts." - Is it possible to state around this part what months the tour began and ended?
"By fall 1987, she embarked on the Who's That Girl World Tour." - Can you change 'by' to 'in', and change 'fall' (which varies depending on country) to the month the tour began?
"It was complimented for Madonna's innovative dresses"? - Could you change this to something like "It finished in September 1987 and was complimented for Madonna's innovative dresses"?
"Following year, Madonna was signed to play a violin teacher in the film Music of the Heart but left the project.." - Missing a 'the' at the start of the sentence?
"The song reached number eight on the Billboard Hot 100 and was nominated both for a Golden Globe Award for Best Original Song and a Golden Raspberry for Worst Song." - Could you link Golden Raspberry?
"In fall 2003, Madonna provided guest vocals on Spears' single "Me Against the Music"." - Another 'fall' that should be changed.
There are some $ with spaces between the amount, and others without the space. Could you pick one style and make them all consistent?
"Fall 2009, Madonna released Celebration, her third greatest hits album, and the closing release with Warner." - Another 'fall', and should there be an 'in' at the start of the sentence?
"Same year, she released her third live album, Sticky & Sweet Tour. It was her first release under Live Nation, but was distributed by Warner Bros." - Should there be a 'that' or an 'in the' at the start of this sentence?
"Madonna announced plans of directing her second film titled W.E., co-written it with Alek Keshishian, a biopic about the affair between King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson." - Could you reword to something like "Madonna announced plans of directing her second film titled W.E., a biopic about the affair between King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson. It was co-written by her and Alek Keshishian."?
"She later clarified that the film is about a woman's journey and that the duchess as her spiritual guide, but was not going to be about the duchess' life." - Could you reword this? I'm not too sure what is trying to be said.
Changed it to She later clarified that the film is about a woman's journey and was not going to be about the duchess' life. Instead, the duchess would act as the woman's spiritual guide. OK? --Legolas(talk2me)05:58, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Her recognition was augmented by the film.. - eeww, bit cumbersome-sounding...."Her profile was boosted/raised"? "The film further put her in the spotlight" something.
boosted felt a little to papery word to me as was profile, hence I changed it to Her recognition was further raised by the film Desperately Seeking Susan. --Legolas(talk2me)05:58, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
She sang and played drums and guitar for the group, but soon left to form the band Emmy in 1980, with drummer and former boyfriend Stephen Bray. - this gives the impression that she had already separated from Bray when they formed the band. Is that right?
Yes, however to be on the safe side broke the sentence so that it is easier to understand. "She sang and played drums and guitar for the group. But in 1980 she left Breakfast Club and formed the band Emmy, with drummer and her former boyfriend Stephen Bray." --Legolas(talk2me)05:58, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
with artist Jean-Michel Basquiat and lived with him for a time in his loft - any idea how long? "for a time" can mean alot of things to alot of different people...
Slowly, Madonna's look and manner of dress, her performances and music videos, became influential among young girls and women. - ungainly. I know what you mean and I am trying to think an alternative. "Madonna's look and manner of dress, her performances and music videos, began to influence among young girls and women." or ""Madonna's look and manner of dress, her performances and music videos, began making an impact on fashion." Actually, the more I look at it and the next sentence, the more I feel it is redundant. Remove the sentence and read. I feel the second sentence is sufficient in getting the point across.
If I had removed teh first sentence, the paragaph would have had a very abrupt beginning. Hence, kept the first sentence but tweaked it to read "Slowly, Madonna's look and manner of dressing, her performances and music videos, started influencing young girls and women." --Legolas(talk2me)05:58, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Overall, I am reduced to minor nitpicks above. The second half is written better than the first half. I can see where Suomi Finland 2009 is coming from and agree that a less listy and more global structure is better, but concede that at the end of the day an most artist is famous for the material that they produce. I think if any less notable material from the diary-like top half it would make for a better article flow-wise but then would have issues with comprehensiveness if something too notable were left out. I'll have another look at the top half but we're nearly over the line I think. Casliber (talk·contribs) 23:28, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, in part; Oppose, in part. This is an entertaining article. However, it reads much like a diary. When trying to find non-musical biographical information, it is exceedingly painful and difficult to do. I would suggest putting all the musical and acting career information together in a separate section, which can be sub-divided into time periods. Otherwise, the article is difficult to read. Although it is important to meet technical requirements, such as citation format, there is much more to a quality article than meeting format requirements. Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 21:11, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I understand your concerns Suomi Finland 2009, but I draw your attention to Talk:Madonna (entertainer), where Pyrrhus16 addressed your concern that it is better to have a single flow of the biography, rather than have section wise analysis. A consensus at Talk:Madonna (entertainer) was that the personal life sections and acting careers should be merged in to the main biography as "Personal Life" sections tend to be hot bed for gossips and fancruft. We do not need an exhaustive who's who list of whom the artist dated. Maybe people like Bray, Benitez and Beatty is notable as they come under her work and is related, but separate sections always have this concern of being a gossip bed. Also, the article was modelled on already existent FAs like Michael Jackson, Janet Jackson, Kylie Minogue who follow this rule too. I hope I clarified your doubts enough. --Legolas(talk2me)05:58, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I also understand the talk page comments where the diary style is defended. Wikipedia consensus does allow for this kind of writing. Wikipedia consensus and FA status are different things. I do not disagree with someone stating that the consensus is that or this version. What my concerns are is that the article is simply not well written. It is just a massive diary. There are many ways to fix this. Separating her music/film career is possible. The remaining could be her humanitarian and personal life. Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 17:27, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Would you state what you want to do exactly? Because separate personal life and and film career is a big no-no as per the previous consensus. --Legolas(talk2me)03:22, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am not the fighting type so I have just made the suggestions for improvement. My feeling is if there was a Pulitzer Prize journalist writing this article, they would not write a massive diary style article. WP FA's are supposed to be the best. We can do it! Possibly in 2 days. I am willing to help but will not start the process because people might misunderstand and think that I am a troublemaker. Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 17:32, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Binksternet
Why start a sentence with "Same year"? You have "The same year" twice, "That same year" twice, and "Same year" twice as the beginning of sentences. There must be a better way to provide variation than the clipped, staccato "Same year".
Somehow, you have Madonna signing a $120 million contract in 2008 in the lead section, but in 2007 in the article body. The relevant source, a story in Billboard, does not have a visible year of publication. It has only a month and day: October 16. A related story at MSNBC establishes the year as 2007, giving the full date October 16, 2007. Your Billboard cite template gives this article the mistaken date of June 9, 2007, which must be fixed.
Why spell out some numbers but not others? Why, for instance, does an album chart "in over 28 countries" but a "title song peaked at number thirty-seven on the Hot 100"?
I'm still seeing some prose problems, one that others are bringing up. I will support when the prose becomes "engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard", per FA criteria. Binksternet (talk) 21:30, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That first paragraph has six sentences that do not very flow very well at all. You move from her single to the recording of Madonna to Basquiat and then back to the album. I hope you can rip it up and rewrite the paragraph...
"Rock and Roll Hall of Fame listed the album as one of the "Definitive 200 Albums of All Time"" - that was much later right?? In that case give the year.
"she released a remix album of past hits, entitled You Can Dance.[44] Madonna and Penn filed for divorce in December 1987" - the effect of abruptly going from the sentence about the remix album to one about her divorce is quite jarring. Could you split that second sentence off into a separate para, and add some more details about her relationship with Penn to fill that para out?
As much as I want to, but there is not enough info to fill out an entire para of similar body. Madonna's relationship with Penn was tabloid fodder, without most of the news I found as speculations as to Penn was doing "this and that" and MAdonna was "doing this and that". Basically, it all comes down to Madonna, who was non-compromising for her career, not tolerating Penn's abusive and drinking problems, and Penn continuing to disassociate himself from the marriage, living life as a batchelor (with all the girls and strippers etc). Only concrete matter I found was in the biography by Taraborrelli, who said that these problems were what led to the divorce, followed by some conversation. Hence I am not sure whether that material and tabloid fodder will be appropriate in Wikipedia. What do you say? --Legolas(talk2me)05:21, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't there a more appropriate link for Vatican than 'Holy See'?
The last paragraph of the "1986–91" section - From "In December 1990, Madonna decided" onwards, the sentences aren't really related to each other at all. Especially the one about her quitting that film. Why did she quit? Seems like interesting info that should be there.—indopug (talk) 19:42, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
See my reply above for the film .05:21, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
Quick comments - prose is in need of further polishing, and there are some organization and neutrality issues. A few examples:
Per WP:LEAD, the lead should summarize the article: it fizzles out at the end of the third paragraph with "The next year, she began her Sticky & Sweet Tour which went on to become the highest-grossing tour ever for a solo artist." This is followed by the usual final-paragraph sales and achievements summary, so we are left with no sense of her present status and creative focus, as detailed in the 2007–present section.
I would argue that major points are always summarised in the lead. Whatever Madonna did after 2008 barely reflects a major point and there is nothing concrete to represent in it. Hence the bio stops at the 09-09 Sticky & Sweet Tour. --Legolas(talk2me)03:39, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*" After performing as a member of the pop musical groups ..." - overlinking, and "pop groups" is the usual term.
*"Gradually, Madonna's look and manner of dressing, her performances and music videos, started influencing young girls and women." - clunky. Dubiously punctuated, and possibly another "her" is needed.
Still clunky. "Gradually, Madonna's look and manner of dressing, her performances and her music videos, started influencing young girls and women." Given your choice of sentence structure, what is the final comma doing there? It's a trivial point, but it's an example of why the prose is not quite there. PL290 (talk) 09:49, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*"Madonna had posed for the photographs as she needed money at the time, and was paid as little as $25 a session. But since she had signed the appropriate release forms, she could not take legal action to block them." - second sentence gives an unnecessary explanation, introducing bias by hinting at an unsupported implication that she was taken advantage of; first sentence already makes the facts clear.
*"The photographs were ultimately sold for up to $100,000. She referred to this incident at the outdoor Live Aid charity concert and stated that she would not take her jacket off because "they [the media] might hold it against me ten years from now."' - unlikely that she was referring to the sale. Also, the word "incident" again introduces bias: she attended some sessions, for which she was paid $25 per session, and the other party then acted in accordance with what she had agreed. Events unfolded in consequence thereafter. It was not one incident.PL290 (talk) 21:06, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support — Comprehensive, well-written article. Her mother, Madonna Louise (née Fortin), was of French Canadian descent, and her father, Silvio Anthony Ciccone, was a first-generation Italian American whose family originated from Pacentro in Italy; he worked as a design engineer for Chrysler and General Motors." Is perhaps a bit long-winded.AaroncrickTALK08:36, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Leaning to oppose
The responses to my points above have brought some improvement, although some concerns remain, including that of the lead coverage. The above comments were only from a quick scan of the article; scanning again, I find further examples of unpolished prose and other potential issues:
A tendency towards proseline. "In 1999, this happened. In 2000, that happened." Does not make for engaging prose.
I did use other formats, but editors, who have supported above opposed to such additions of "Same year" or other variations of it.
That you are able to reply in these terms forces one to question the depth of consideration given to the charge that the article has a tendency to exhibit proseline. PL290 (talk) 18:25, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
For such sentences, work the prose into a narrative thread, engaging the reader with sentences that connect with each other, rather than presenting a list of unrelated statements. (See also Indopug's early comment about one part, "the sentences aren't really related to each other at all".) Sometimes, "In 2000, such-and-such happened" is fine, but when it happens too much it's a sign of problems and makes for boring prose. PL290 (talk) 08:22, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Those specific changes are certainly improvements. Please see below for general ongoing thoughts about the proseline/diary effect and how it relates to Suomi Finland 2009's point about structure. I will leave this unstruck for now. PL290 (talk) 10:16, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
'achieved notoriety for her "unusual" behavior' - there are surely more encyclopedic ways of putting this than using scare quotes.
Erratic?
That means something quite different. Decide what you're trying to say! The use of scare quotes was the issue, but "unusual" didn't say much; perhaps "unconventional", "uninhibited", or whatever you think is the main point (that sources say is the case). PL290 (talk) 08:22, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"particularly for her underwear fetish" - does Taraborrelli say she had/has an underwear fetish? Do a broad range of reliable sources also state this, and has she said as much herself, or is it the opinion of observers? Do they (and she) say her sexual attention seeking in class was because of her underwear fetish? That she had/has such a fetish is quite an extreme statement to make in a WP:BLP. Even if true, it appears to be used in a synthesis here, unless the sources do support its connection with her antics as a girl wanting boys to notice her.
There is a direct quote in Taraborrelli's article about Madonna saying "I used to like all kinds of underwear! Mine was these big red bloopers which were quite ugly, I wanted to have those lace thingies that others wore and had a fetish for different types of panties. [...] I used to be naughty, hanging from those monkey bar thingies, cartwheels and handstands were my favourite for showing in the hallways between classes, hell I even showed them boy my bloopers. I had them in my pockets! " This should explain you. --Legolas(talk2me)10:12, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
People are wont to use words like "fetish" colloquially; unless reliable sources use that word, I believe we should limit ourselves to quoting the passage you have just cited (if there is a place in the article where it would be appropriate), and not make statements that treat "fetish" as an established fact, such as "achieved notoriety for her erratic behavior—particularly for her underwear fetish." PL290 (talk) 18:25, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"It gave Madonna twenty percent royalties from the music proceedings, equal at that time to Michael Jackson's royalty agreement." - royalties are equal to a royalty agreement? Seems like apples and oranges are being compared, or wrong part of speech.
I can see why Binksternet changed it: what you've changed it back to is worse, because it equates her and Jackson's royalty values instead of percentages. Please consider and resolve the issue comprehensively, rather than reverting to another problem version. PL290 (talk) 18:25, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How about this version? "The deal was a seven year joint venture with Time Warner and gave Madonna an advance of $60 million. It also gave her 20 percent royalties from the music proceedings, equal at that time to Michael Jackson's royalty rate." ? --Legolas(talk2me)03:37, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, you added something different, which omits your vital phrase "Jackson's royalty rate". What you had above is accurate. PL290 (talk) 10:16, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*"Madonna ended her relationship with Leon in December 1998, with Madonna citing that they were "better off as best friends."" - clunky. Vague linking word "with", and needless repetition of "Madonna".
*"She followed the success of Ray of Light with the single, "Beautiful Stranger", recorded for the 1999 film Austin Powers: The Spy Who Shagged Me's soundtrack." - clunky. The comma after "single" is extraneous, and the unnecessarily complicated possessive at the end is a distraction.
Sorry, but these are again only examples from a quick scan, and I feel thorough copyediting and polishing is required before the article wil be ready for FA status. PL290 (talk) 09:49, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Again, addressed your concern. I won't say that I am very good in English, but this is a huge article and your inputs are extremely welcome, if somewhere I might have slipped. :) --Legolas(talk2me)10:12, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, can I request you to move your commets in a box as resolved comments? Actually it is getting very difficult to read through with all the comments and everything. A humble request. --Legolas(talk2me)10:14, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I know some reviewers adopt that practice, but my preference is not to do so except in unusual circumstances, since I consider review comments are relevant to all while the review is ongoing. You have addressed some of my concerns, but not all, and my general impression is, as I said, that a thorough copyedit and polish is needed before this article is ready for FA status. Sorry to have to say that; I know it's disappointing if a nomination doesn't succeed straight away, but it's not the end of the world to take a couple of weeks polishing an article and bring it back for another nomination. (I've been there too.) I have struck resolved comments. PL290 (talk) 18:25, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I know PL290, that nominations may not pass in the first attempt. That's why I'm taking all the points you guys are making as constructive criticism. I will give the article a thorough copy edit and make sure that its FAC brilliance, I promise. What I meant was that can you move your resolved comments in a comment box? Then it will be easy to go through the unresolved ones. Just a request. --Legolas(talk2me)03:37, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry if I sound too pessimistic; the nom is listed at FAC urgents, so I assumed it was much closer to the bottom of the list than I now see it actually is. If you hope to fix things during this candidacy, you may be advised to try and get an independent copyeditor, particularly since you say you have trouble with some aspects of English. (I see that at an early stage Indopug mentioned the need for copyediting.) I also feel Suomi Finland 2009 has a point about structure, and that the proseline/diary effect may be reduced if you bring some of the detail out of the chronological Biography section into topic sections; any reorganization would probably need to precede a final copyedit. On resolved comments, I understand what you requested, and I hope you can accept that for the reason I gave, some reviewers prefer not to do that. PL290 (talk) 08:22, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know what you mean by that. As far as I can see, this is the latest thing Suomi Finland 2009 has said on the subject: "My feeling is if there was a Pulitzer Prize journalist writing this article, they would not write a massive diary style article. WP FA's are supposed to be the best. We can do it! Possibly in 2 days. I am willing to help but will not start the process because people might misunderstand and think that I am a troublemaker." Anyway, my current position is as follows. You've been updating, and I've been striking, all my very picky points above, but as I said, those were only examples from a quick scan, seemingly indicative of general prose issues. I now have an opportunity to devote time to reading the whole article, which I will do over the next few hours. I will then comment further here. PL290 (talk) 17:01, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
EDIT: On further reflection, I think I may be off the mark with my comment about the need for the article to emphasize the artist's current status. I've looked at a few other articles of active artists and they don't seem to do it. I'm therefore striking that as a condition—I'll leave it up to other reviewers to comment further if necessary. My support is now unconditional; the remaining points below are for incorporation if possible. PL290 (talk) 10:34, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is a very comprehensive, detailed, and well sourced article. As several reviewers have noted, it does exhibit something of the proseline nature of a list of events or diary, making the prose less engaging than it might otherwise be. However, it's difficult to see how that can be avoided for the topic in question. I've now been right through the article, making some copyedits as I went. As I did so, I gave further consideration to Suomi Finland 2009's suggestion about restructuring: my conclusion is that there are no obvious main topics that could be assembled by extracting detail from the chronological Biography section in order to reduce the latter's size and list-like nature. So I no longer entertain the notion that any reorganization would be beneficial. I am listing some specific comments below; my support is not conditional upon these, though they can hopefully be incorporated without difficulty. I will start with one which is an example of unrelated sentences strung together in a list, in this case to humorous effect:
"Life with My Sister Madonna, a book by Madonna's brother Christopher Ciccone, debuted at number two on The New York Times Bestseller List. It was not authorized by Madonna, and led to a rift between them. She filed for divorce from Ritchie, finalized in December 2008."
"The adoption raised strong public reaction, because Malawian law requires would-be parents to reside in Malawi for one year before adopting, which Madonna did not do.[129] She refuted the allegations on The Oprah Winfrey Show, saying that there were no written adoption laws in Malawi that regulated foreign adoption." - there's a conflict between these two sentences. The first states what the law is; the second then refers to "allegations" (which is not an appropriate word if the public reaction was simply to her defiance of Malawi law). Further, "refuted" is probably overstating it, if she simply claimed there was no such law. Please straighten out both sentences to make all these facts clear.
There's no indication—either in the lead or the 2007–present section—of Madonna's current status and creative focus. It doesn't need much, probably just a sentence in the lead and one or two in 2007–present, but at the moment we are left hanging in both places with no clue about it.
Okay; as I said, I think I was off the mark. I see the latest film is not mentioned in the lead, but in fact that's probably correct, as it's a very specific thing and it would constitute recentism to have it in the lead. Thanks for addressing all the other points. PL290 (talk) 08:39, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There are still areas where the prose could benefit from further polishing, but I think it's not a deal-breaker and the article meets the criteria so I am happy to support. PL290 (talk) 21:28, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments: I'm gradually looking through the article, and I'll say right off that although I'm willing to spend some time looking and commenting, I don't always have a lot of time on any given day. If there's anything that I think needs some rewording or that is easy enough to deal with, I'll do so, and I've already made a couple of edits. I'll just comment here on issues that I think relate more to content.
*Barbra Streisand is mentioned in the lead, but nowhere else. As the lead is supposed to summarize the article and should be made up of the main points, Streisand needs to be either mentioned in the article or removed from the lead. I'd choose the first option.
*"There, she was known for her high GPA" - "GPA" is probably not immediately understood by non- Americans (such as myself), so I think it should be linked to something explanatory. I'm not sure what.
*"After her mother died of breast cancer at age 30 on December 1, 1963,[6] her father married the family's housekeeper Joan Gustafson" - I think linking the two in one sentence is not the right approach. Literally, the second marriage could have taken place anytime from later in the day, December 1, 1963 so to give the date for one but not the other, is confusing. I think the points should be dealt with seperately. Also, there's a quote about her treatment of her step-mother which I think is appropriate, but given the impact her mother's death had on her, and how it shaped her determination to succeed, a quote about her mother's death would be a great addition. It would also help separate the death and the second marriage.
I really like what your are saying and made some changes accordingly. Would that work? I looked it up again and it felt really sad. She was a poor kid :( --Legolas(talk2me)03:40, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's a huge improvement - thanks. I've reworded it a little. We don't need to mention Andrew Morton. That makes it seems that she made the comment specifically for him, and that's probably not the case. I think it's stronger to leave it with just her comment, and Morton cited as the source. I'm sure I've read her quoted as saying that her mother's death fuelled her will to stand out and her ambition to succeed, and if I can find it, I'll add it. It's not crucial, but it would expand the personal reaction, which I think is highly suitable, to place it into the context of her career. Rossrs (talk) 10:14, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*Regarding "Like a Prayer" - "Since the commercial and music video were nearly identical, Pepsi was unable to convince the public that their commercial was unrelated to the video." I know the FOX article says the two are similar but the commercial is on You Tube. The only similarity I can see is that Madonna is in both. I suggest looking at other sources to see if another point of view is given. I also question that Pepsi was "unable to convince the public" (which is not covered by the FOX source). By my own recollection of the reporting of this episode, they didn't try to convince the public of anything and dropped Madonna like a hot potato. Again, I suggest looking at other sources. If you've already done so, and this is what the consensus opinion is, that's fine, but I have my doubts.
Looked in Andrew Morton's biography of Madonna, there he reports that the commercial was similar to the song, not the video and he did not comment on Pepsi trying to convince the public. Hence removed, and substituted with the fact that religious groups were boycotting their product which made them drop Madonna. --Legolas(talk2me)03:40, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*"Madonna tried to tone down the provocative image, by releasing the ballad single "I'll Remember" (1993) which she recorded for Alek Keshishian's film With Honors.[75] She made a tame appearance with Letterman at an awards show as well as appearing on the The Tonight Show with Jay Leno." Is this all sourced to J. Randy Taraborrelli? (I don't have his book.) I only question the "tone down the provocative" bit, because "Erotica" was the only "provocative" single from Erotica. "I'll Remember" is fairly similar to, for example, "Rain" which had already been released as a single, so I don't understand how "I'll Remember" could be used as a kind of damage control. Also the word "tame" - if this is a quote it needs to be attributed otherwise it reads as original research. "Tame" is not a neutral word and in Madonna's case there is more than one possible connotation. If it's attributed to someone, that's ok, but otherwise it should be made neutral. "Continuing to tone down her image, Madonna released Something to Remember, a collection of her ballads, in May 1995." - repeating the phrase that she's trying to tone down her image so soon after it's first mentioned, is redundant, and because there's no source given, I'm not sure if this is still Taraborrelli talking. Rossrs (talk) 14:51, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, although "I'll Remember" was released after "Rain", it was a bigger hit that the latter, which made the public sit up and notice Madonna the artist once more. "Rain" was simply lost in the Erotica controversy and it did not help that Madonna made the appearance on LEtterman before that. Hence Taraborrelli commented that Madonna had to tone down the provocation, and her last chance was "I'll Remember", a simple love song, and distancing herself as much as possible from the Erotica era. The second part about Something to Remember being used for toning down her image is misleading, hence removed. --Legolas(talk2me)03:40, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's better, but I'm not sure it's there yet. I think "restrained" would be a better word than "tame". Maybe even "subdued". "Tame" could mean "limp", "lifeless" etc. It has a somewhat negative connotation that is at odds with the discussion about her changing direction in a positive way. We're talking about a proactive Madonna seizing control of her career direction, and triumphing, and I don't think there's anything "tame" in that. I would change this sentence - "She realized that her music career needed some dramatic changes in order to sustain herself in the long run." Something like "She realized that she needed to change her musical direction in order to sustain her popularity." I think that would lead more smoothly into the Bedroom Stories section. What do you think? Rossrs (talk) 10:14, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think subdued would be a better word, since she technically did not restrain herself, but banked on the negative feedback ("Human Natuer?"). So subdued works fine as it gives the reader the feel that she softened herself and her raunchy image for her musical career. It would also, as you point out, work better for the Bedtime Stories line, which was the time that she turned away from Erotica, nevertheless, remaining as defiant as before. --Legolas(talk2me)10:41, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I feel the opposite. Restrain gives the implication of self-control + the feeling that the subject itself is accepting the change. Whereas subdue can be ambiguous. Madonna did not really felt humbled or anything, just that it was sheer calculation to tone the image. Both can be used, just that I feel restrained gives a little POV type smell. --Legolas(talk2me)11:22, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I can see either "subdued" or "restrained" as acceptable, so whatever is used is fine with me. Anything but "tame". ;-) Rossrs (talk) 13:36, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*"Throughout her career Madonna, like David Bowie, has repeatedly reinvented herself through a series of visual and musical personas." - I'm puzzled by this. This is the only mention of David Bowie and it comes out of the blue, with no discussion of comparison and nothing to suggest she was influenced by him. Is this a theme you wish to build upon, or could we lose "like David Bowie"? It would then read "Throughout her career Madonna has repeatedly reinvented herself through a series of visual and musical personas." I think that would suffice. Rossrs (talk) 10:14, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Legolas, thank you for the prompt manner in which you've dealt with the issues I've raised. Happy to support this now. Rossrs (talk) 13:31, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
media Ideally images should alternate left right to balance the article (this is not always possible, but I feel should be attempted). Images with faces should look into the text (or outward), this is particularly true of the info box image. licensing acceptable. I find the preceding table unhelpful this is not a voteFasach Nua (talk) 17:50, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your comments, I have rearranged the images wherever applicable. Care to look once again? The prior table was done because it was getting very difficult to navigate through as the comments filled up the whole page. This is not done for voting, just to show the consensus. --Legolas(talk2me)03:40, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose by Karanacs. This is a regretful oppose; as I was reading the article through in order to promote it I realized that I couldn't in good conscience do so. I think this article is close to meeting FAC criteria but isn't quite there yet. I agree with the complaint above that this reads more like a timeline, but I don't think that reorganization is necessary. Rewriting and a bit of addition could fix that problem.
One of the larger issues, and what likely led to the complaints that this reads like a diary, is paragraph organization. Both within a paragraph, and from paragraph to paragraph within a section, the focus often completely changes. This makes the reading experience very jumpy. Often, this can be fixed by rewording the sentences. Here's an example of simple changes that can be made to partially fix the problem [29]. Topic sentences can also help. I was going to fix this myself, but it is too widespread.
I felt like I was occasionally drowning in detail. I don't really care, as a reader, to be told that song X is her 7th number one hit in the US and song Y is her 8th number one hit....do we really need to know the "number number one", rather than just be told that this was a number one hit? Do we really need to know in this article that song X was used in a Microsoft commercial? Do we really need to know in this article that she appeared at the VMAs to speak about Michael Jackson?
I'm disappointed that we aren't given more quotes from Madonna. Overall, I don't feel like we are given a good overview of her as a person rather than an overview of her career. Hearing her perspectinve, in her own words, would alleviate some of that. If this can't all be fit in the prose, perhaps quote boxes?
We're also missing almost any discussion of motivations. Example 1: At the time, I remember reading about how badly Madonna wanted the part of Evita, and her performance in that movie really floored a lot of critics who thought her casting was a disaster. There's nothing on any of that in here. Example 2: Are there any sources detailing how Madonna's early loss of her mother affected her choices later in life?
Point 1. I believe the chunk I added addresses it. Point 2. User:Rossrs is searching for some info, which he will add. (Edit) I added it instead about how her mother's influence crept in to her music. --Legolas(talk2me)06:02, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The early part of the article mentions Madonna's impact on 80s fashion (and not a single picture!!) and later we hear that Madonna has her own clothing line. To me, this is an interesting circle, but we aren't told anything about what types of clothes are sold in her line, or why she or the company chose to enter into this partnership. By this point, Madonna isn't the fashion icon that she was - why her?
The bright, girlish vocal timbre of the early years became passé in Madonna's later works, the change being deliberate - why? why did she make this change?
There's repetition in the structure. We're told in the bio that she became involved in Kabbalah (but not how it effected her), and then told this again in the Influences section. Same type of thing with discussion of Like a Prayer repeated in different areas. That suggests that perhaps a bit more thinking about the structure and division is necessary.
I believe the Like a Prayer quote box can explain that? And the same for the Kabbalah. The influence on her albums like Ray of Light and Music is explained before, but the influence on life and as a whole is discussed later.--Legolas(talk2me)04:52, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"The influence of the Kaballah was subsequently observed in Madonna's music, especially albums like Ray of Light and Music. " - can this be expanded at all?
Reporter Michael McWilliams commented: "The gripes about Madonna—she's cold, greedy, talentless—conceal both bigotry and the essence of her art, which is among the warmest, the most humane, the most profoundly satisfying in all pop culture."[217] - we haven't really been told that she's "cold, greedy, talentless" - where did this criticism come from?
Is this type of criticism accurately reflected in the article? In my reading, the article seems to portray Madonna in a very good way, and there is limited criticism (beyond the oft-referenced rantings of the religious conservatives, which is necessary to include and amuses me greatly). If there are sources that echo these sentiments, then they need to be given appropriate space and explanation. Karanacs (talk) 15:17, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes there is. Quite a few business related articles convey how ruthless and shrewd she is, when it comes to matters of money. I added two of them to balance the section. Regarding "the article seems to portray Madonna in a very good way", I don't know which section you are referring to, because Madonna's music and films have been analysed in both the positive and negative way. I don't need others like the tabloidy features of "how much a bad mom Madonna is" can be remotely encyclopedic. --Legolas(talk2me)05:17, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My apologies for the delay in my return; real-life got in the way. Overall, excellent work on focusing the paragraphs better. The transitions between topics are much better. I think some of the content additions are also helping to give a more in-depth feel of who Madonna is and why she did some of the things she did.
I like Moni3's proposed lead much better than the current one - I think it gives a better overview of Madonna and her career and the prose flows better.
I think that the expansion of the early life section is overall very helpful, as it gives a much clearer picture of what motivated some of Madonna's later behavior. I think it may stray a tad into unnecessary detail, however - do we need quite so much information on Madonna's attempts to play with her mother or can this be summarized a little more?
Has someone specifically checked the copyright status of File:Madonna Ciccone.jpg. This image has both a PD license and a fair use rationale. From my understanding, it is not PD, as it was not published between 1923 and 1977 without a copyright notice. I don't think we can justify it as fair use either, but images aren't my specialty.
We need to have a citation at the end of a sentence with quotations in it; this may mean duplicating the citation in consecutive sentences, but that's okay.
There is still a lot of overly wordy sentence structure. Example only: The death of her mother had left such deep emotional scars in her, that Madonna was terrified that she would lose her father too. She would crawl beside her father in bed, as she would suffer from recurring nightmares of loneliness; it was only with the assurance that her father was with her could she fall soundly and safely asleep could be distilled down to Terrified that her father could be taken from her as well, Madonna was often unable to sleep unless she was near him. This type of editing could be useful in many areas of the article - there are lots of places where the article uses 2 sentences and 30 words when we could use 1 sentence and 10 words to convey the same meaning. Given the length of the article (justified by her long career), the prose really needs to be as tight as possible.
Do we need to know which artists/musicians she was living with while preparing for her debut album? Unless they had some specific impact on the development of the album or her career in general, this seems more trivial.
The sentence is not so clear on this - did she move in with him because she needed money or help to develop the album (the way it's worded it implies this)? Did he have any influence on the album? Karanacs (talk) 15:31, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think a little expansion about the background of the album is needed, to justify Madonna's relationship with Jellybean. Tweaked the part as such and introduced small commentary about the album's development. --Legolas(talk2me)05:05, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Punctuation in this sentence is off: Mainly created by stylist and jewelry designer Maripol, Madonna's lace tops, skirts over capri pants, fishnet stockings, jewelry bearing the crucifix, multiple bracelets, and bleached hair—became a female fashion trend of the 1980s
She eventually achieved global recognition after the release of her second studio album: Like a Virgin (1984). Two issues: a) is there a reason the year is in ( ) instead of saying "in 1984"? b) what do we mean by "eventually"? Is this supposed to mean "got famous after the release of her second album" or "the second album slowly raised her profile until at some point months/years after its release she was recognized globally?"
The article gives general information on how her movies were received overall, but does not give much specific information on how her acting was received.
It does, in the influences part. Doesnot elaborate on specific acting, but in general, Madonna the actress was always received negatively. Thats what the section says. "Madonna's film career has been largely received negatively by the film critic community. Stephanie Zacharek, critic for Time magazine, stated that, "[Madonna] seems wooden and unnatural as an actress, and it's tough to watch, because she's clearly trying her damnedest." According to biographer Andrew Morton, "Madonna puts a brave face on the criticism, but privately she is deeply hurt." After the 2002 box-office bomb Swept Away, Madonna vowed that she would never act in a film, hoping that her repertoire as a bad actress will never be discussed again." — This justifies the majority of critics panning her acting, which in turn did influence Madonna; she was hurt by their comments to the point that she vowed to never act in films. I think this area shows that although we get Madonna as a "DGAF" kinda woman, she is actually vulnerable." --Legolas(talk2me)05:17, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I like the additions to the Influences section describing her mother, but the first two paragraphs are extremely heavy on quotes. Some of these should be paraphrased.
We learn in "musical style" that Madonna is "an exemplary songwriter with a gift for hooks and indelible lyrics, but this is the first we've seen that she writes her own songs (did I miss something?; if so, sorry). Given the sheer number of her songs that have been hits, it might be worthwhile having at least a paragraph to describe her songwriting, or, if some of the rest of this section is directly related to her songs, vs those written by other people, then we might want to make that more clear.
Update, leaning support- I got lost trying to go through my old comments again. Right now, my biggest sticking point is the image of Madonna's mother, which I'm unconvinced is actually PD. I left a message with User:Jappalang, who is also on a semi-wikibreak. Perhaps you could also leave a message on the Commons village pump? There are a lot more people over there who understand the intricacies of what is PD and what is not. Once the image status is ironed out I'll strike my oppose and support. Thanks for all your hard work!! Karanacs (talk) 14:05, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose at this pointSupport, subject to the footnote addition mentioned in my last point below, and presuming the additions in response to Karanacs pts have not introduced any probs requiring copyediting ('cos i did find a couple in the additions re Evita :-) hamiltonstone (talk) 11:29, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with some of Karanacs' pts (though i have less of an issue than does she), particularly about the lack of a sense of motivation at times. My main concerns are:
It needs more about Evita. Here we have arguably the most influential solo artist of her generation in her most infuential non-recording moment. But it whizzes by. No quotes of critics; no quotes of Madonna discussing her appearance. I think it deserves a paragraph of its own.
"After Lourdes' birth, Madonna became involved in Eastern mysticism and Kabbalah." The biography cannot get away with such a passing remark about something so significant. How did she become involved? How did this influence her personally? Professionally? etc etc.
Yes. It is explained later in the part about her influences. In the bio, it just reflects on the timeline and the albums, but the influences has a detailed approach. --Legolas(talk2me)09:01, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
On a more minor note, we do not need to be told the time of her birth, nor does it appear to be in either of the cited sources. Further, one of the sources quotes her as saying of her mother "she was French Canadian but she was born in Bay City." Well, here's the thing. If you're born in Bay City, you're American. Her mother died when Madonna was five, so Madonna must have a limited direct knowledge of her. How do we know her mother was French Canadian: because Madonna tells us that, when it is contradicted in the same sentence? We need a properly researched biography to vouch for this kind of claim. People have all sorts of fallacious understandings about their own ancestry, which is why we try and rely on biographers to sort through these things. hamiltonstone (talk) 01:21, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Removed the time. But the French Canadian descent thing was confirmed by Taraborrelli in the Madonna biography, where he quotes, "Fortin was of French Canadian descent with her family moving from Quebec..." Do you suggest to reword it in any way? --Legolas(talk2me)09:01, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*Comments by Gongshow. Overall this is a well-written, well-sourced and comprehensive article. I'm leaning to support but would like to first offer these suggestions:
"Six singles were released from the album, including 'Like a Prayer', and 'Express Yourself' and 'Cherish' both peaking at number two." - The wording of this sentence is awkward, and while it's not necessary to note every song's chart peak, I would prefer knowing that "Like a Prayer" reached number one if it's to be listed with the other singles.
Included Like a prayer peak
:*"'Justify My Love' reached number one in the U.S. and top five worldwide." The reference provided ([30]) does not indicate the song was "top five worldwide."
:*In the first paragraph of the "1992–96: Maverick, Sex, Erotica, Bedtime Stories and Evita" section, no dates are mentioned. While I assume all the action takes place in 1992, it would be helpful to clarify this somewhere, especially since the paragraph contains phrases like "equaled at that time" and "at the same time".
Tricky one. What I did was introduce the year in whihc A League of Their Own was released, making the paragraph happening in the same time. --Legolas(talk2me)03:45, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
:*Regarding Music, "The album found her returning to the dance idiom and catered to her gay audience." - I'm a little confused by the wording. Returning from what? I think the sentence could also use a citation stating the album catered to her gay audience.
:*I recommend having a smoother transition between the end of the "1997-2002" section and the beginning of the "2003-06" section. For example, the "1992-96" section ends with the birth of Madonna's daughter and the next section begins with "After Lourdes' birth". The end of the "1958–81" section also does a decent job of linking to the beginning of the "1982–85" section. A smooth flow makes for a better read.
:*"Christmas 2003 saw the release of the "extended play" (EP) collection Remixed & Revisited". - I don't think "extended play" needs to be in quotes, and it appears the EP was released in November, not Christmas.
:*"Madonna also signed a contract with Callaway Arts & Entertainment as the author of five books, and published the first one entitled The English Roses. The story was about four English schoolgirls..." - The wording makes it sound like Madonna was the publisher. I would change this to something like, "Madonna also signed a contract with Callaway Arts & Entertainment to write five (children's?) books. The first of these books, entitled The English Roses, was published in (date) and reached the top of The New York Times Best Seller list."
:*"Throughout her career Madonna has repeatedly reinvented herself through a series of visual and musical personas. Fouz-Hernández agrees that this reinvention is one of her key cultural achievements." - The first sentence suggests multiple reinventions; the second says "this" reinvention. I assume Fouz-Hernández is referring to the "repeated" reinventions, but this should be clarified.
I have also made several minor edits to the article. Feel free to revert anything you feel necessary. Again, other than some small nitpicks here and there, I feel this is a very, very strong article overall. Gongshow Talk20:57, 27 May 2010 (UTC) w[reply]
I'm noticing a lack of citation and weasle words: "The performance is noted as one of the most iconic in MTV history." " she ended the relationship because of his drug use and late hours." SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:54, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Conditional oppose: I left all my comments on the talk page...enough to cause ClueBot to PMS and suggest it be overturned. I think this article is very close to FA. Legolas and I are in different time zones, so I don't know if he has seen my comments and suggestions. The crux of my commentary is basic stuff, easy reorganization and slight clarifications. It should be simple to do if Legolas agrees. I would like to see his reply to my commentary before this FAC is archived or promoted (Hint Karanacs and Sandy). --Moni3 (talk) 19:14, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm changing to support. For an article of this size, it's still a bit flawed and awkward in some areas, but for the most part I can appreciate it for being a comprehensive article on one of the most accessed topics on the site. I think there is room for discussion still about streamlining the prose into sections because I think some information is hidden--and I have suspicions this is done more to protect Madonna than it is to present information on Wikipedia--but this seems to be a style issue that is not insurmountable at this time. If articles like Michael Jackson and Janet Jackson also have this structure, it might be worth having a discussion on how to make this more uniform. I'm always willing to give my opinion on improving it. Read this as good job, but you know...better you than me for having to maintain Madonna's article. Jiminy. --Moni3 (talk) 16:05, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
<put FAC delegate hat on>It's not necessary, and not encouraged, to maintain these types of lists. Sandy and I don't rely on them because we can't tell if they are up-to-date, and because FAC is not a vote; a "support" comment may still contain information that backs up an "opppose" and a thoughtful "comment" without a declaration either way can be very useful in helping determine consensus.<takes FAC delegate hat off; puts reviewer hat back on> Karanacs (talk) 14:59, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The length and duration of this nomination page suggest that the article was underprepared. Please note that this is not social welfare, doled out on request. Reviewing resources are being sucked in by such nominations.
This process is not a vote, as is suggested by the league table above. And when Karanacs says "Oppose", why is this transformed into a "Withholding full support"?
I had a look through the lead. Towards the top, this is a long snake: "Utilizing religious imagery in her fourth studio album Like a Prayer (1989), Madonna was praised by critics for her diverse musical productions while at the same time religious conservatives and the Vatican criticized her." – "Utilizing" is one of the ugliest words in English, and can so easily be replaced by "Using". "critics" and "criticized" within two seconds. The contrastive here suggests that the Vatican (not religiously conservative, it suggests) criticized the diversity of her musical productions. Is that right? Later, we are told that her sexually explicit material caused negative reaction in "conservatives and liberals" (what does "alike" add?). So why are elements of the political spectrum mentioned at all if it didn't matter where you stood on it? I'm confused.
I believe religious groups is better suited here. The contrastive did suggest which political spectrum is making a statement on her work.
"Madonna played the starring role in the film "—"starred in the film"?
Different than starring role, which is generally the top-billed role in a film.
"Madonna is known for continually reinventing both her music and image, and for retaining a standard of autonomy within the recording industry.
I don't see anything wrong in it.
"New York, New York"—It's like a stammer. "New York City" for an international readership, please, unlinked. Why were such obscure terms as "vocals" and "drums" linked? Why was US$ linked? And MOSNUM says US dollars are the default, so just $, please.
Only the first instance of $ is linked to United States dollar, this gives the reader a first-hand knowledge that the dollar signs throughout the article is of US origin.
Ellipsis points—where there's a period in the original, as here, insert the three points unspaced after the period: "confusion. [...] I saw my mother," -> "confusion.... I saw my mother,". I see more of this further down.
"Gradually, Madonna's look and manner of dressing, her performances and her music videos started influencing young girls and women."—Both "Gradually" and "started to" are overkill, aren't they?
It's just started in the sentence. Also, Gradually here denotes the present imperfect tense of the situation.
The dash is odd here: "Mainly created by stylist and jewelry designer Maripol, Madonna's lace tops, skirts over capri pants, fishnet stockings, jewelry bearing the crucifix, multiple bracelets, and bleached hair—became a female fashion trend of the 1980s." I'd just remove it and have a space.
Right.
Here's another termporal oddity: "She eventually achieved global recognition after the release of her second studio album: Like a Virgin (1984)." So we were waiting a looooong time for this to happen by 1984, yes?
The sentence "Her second album, Like a Virgin (1984), foreshadowed several trends in Madonna's later works, including references to classical works (the pizzicato synthesizer line that opens the song "Angel"); potential negative reaction from social groups ("Dress You Up" which was blacklisted by the Parents Music Resource Center); and retro styles ("Shoo-Bee-Doo", Madonna's homage to Motown)." is way too long and convoluted.
Another salute to Mahler in his 150th anniversary year (the centenary of the premiere is on 12 September 2010). This symphony was the greatest success of Mahler's lifetime and has stayed popular with the public, although there is often less enthusiasm from the critics. It is the ultimate combination of symphony and song, and its unofficial subtitle "Symphony of a Thousand" is apt. For once, it was a pleasure to write the article; I hope some readers will likewise enjoy it. Brianboulton (talk) 23:53, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I had the pleasure of peer reviewing this article. It was top flight then, and is better still now. In my opinion it meets all the FA criteria and is a worthy candidate for the front page. - Tim riley (talk) 00:25, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support I too peer reviewed it and found all of my (minor) concerns were addressed in the PR. I also want to note as an Image Review that all of the images are either PD-old, or modern with a free license. Well done, and I think this would be a fitting tribute for the centennial anniversary of the premier. Ruhrfisch><>°°01:37, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
PS I am planning on listening to this symphony just because of reading this article[reply]
Thanks to Tim riley and Ruhrfisch for their patient peer review work, and now for the above supports (though I doubt if Tim will be listening). Brianboulton (talk) 21:40, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments - quite a nice article, with a few points to take care of to make it really great.
The first of these is an irritation. I took a print copy of this article on 20 April, and the link was still working on 18 May when I sent the article to peer review. Andante.com is hosting a series of Mahler tributes, and the article by Henry-Louis de La Grange on the Eighth is part of this. Now this and the other tribute articles all appear to have vanished. If I can't locate the new site within a day or so, I will find other sources for the information cited here. As to the Quebec source, I have switched this to a different and more stable site.
You could also check archive.org or a similar site to see if they have a copy
Checks have proved fruitless, but I have found a BBC source that replicates much of the material. I am using this, with appropriate small changes to the text. The dead link has been removed.Brianboulton (talk) 16:06, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Correct spelling of Gut(t)man(n)?
Did Mahler actively disapprove of the nickname, or did he simply not acknowledge it?
Biographer Carr refers to Mahler's "dismay" at the name, which I guess amounts to disapproval (which doesn't of course have to be active; silent disapproval can be equally potent). I believe my choice of wording reflects fairly what the sources say, but I can change "despite Mahler's disapproval" to "without Mahler's approval" if you really think the point important.
My point was that "despite Mahler's disapproval" seemed to contradict with "Mahler did not acknowledge the name" in the lead; if you're satisfied with both wordings I won't insist on changing it
Musikfesthalle or Musik-festhalle?
"it has also been compared to the Beethoven's Ninth Symphony" - revise to reflect intended meaning
I have deleted the superfluous "the", if that is what you were meaning. Otherwise, please clarify.
Yes, that makes sense
Is the second section based on the closing scene or scenes of Faust?
"four trumpets, 4 trombones" - why the different number format?
The "subsequent performances" image is a program, not an advertisement, correct?
Faust is arguably a play, not a poem, and Part II was written entirely in the 19th century
I have rarely seen it referred to as a "play". I have seen many references to it as a "poem" or "dramatic poem", and these are the terms I have employed.
Understandable. Feel free to point that out to the editors of our own article on the subject ;)
Prose is technically correct, but lacks flow in areas - could use another set of eyes
Other eyes have viewed it. If you can indicate where you think that flow is lacking, perhaps attention can be directed to those areas.
More a general point than a specific complaint; I'll see if I can fix this myself.
Support I also peer reviewed the article and there were relatively few concerns and they were addressed. Fulfils all FA criteria.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:24, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Images - The PD-US template is over used, and while acceptable, is less free than desirable. If possible use pd-old, pd-germany or plain pd depending on what is appropriate per FAC3 Fasach Nua (talk) 10:32, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments Pretty much there, but could do with a final polish. Some points:
Underlinked: I'm not one to want Austria, but symphony, sonata form & others should be linked, especially musical terms, but also Strophe.
Of musical terms, I have now linked sonata form and some related terms (exposition, development etc). I am pretty sure that all musical terms (including symphony) are linked at first mention, but if you spot others I'll be happy to deal with them. About "strophe" I am not so sure. First, the word only occurs within a quotation and we don't usually link within a quote; secondly, the "Strophe" article is a mess, with heavy cleanup banners in place. I'm not sure that a direct to this article will be helpful. Instead I have added a parenthetical "verses" to the quote, which is surely all readers need to know.
Since Maiernigg is in the municipality of Maria Wörth (pop. 1357), that should be added (really it should redirect there with a little added)
With all due respect, and thanks for the info, I'm not sure this tells anyone much. From the maps, Maiernigg is several miles east of Maria Worth and the connection between the two places seems entirely administrative. My own view is that mentioning the province, the lake and the place-name is probably enough. But tell me if you feel strongly.
I make them within sight of each other, and just over 3 miles apart by boat, which I'm sure is the best way to travel it. But I wouldn't withhold support for that. Wörthersee is not much use, and has no map. Johnbod (talk) 21:52, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
a translation of the singer's "role" titles would be more useful than the now forgotten soloists at the premiere, if there is not room for both.
I think that the premiere soloists' names, if known, should be given, whether they are forgotten or not. This is significant information. As to translations of the role titles, many of them are proper names. Of the others, "Magna peccatrix" might be "Woman of great sins", "Mulier Samaritana" would be "Samarian woman" and "Maria Aegyptica" is "Maria of Egypt". I'll add these.
Support. As usual, excellent work from this Brian. A few niggles:
Why "The" before the title, first word?
"considerable critical"—a mouthful ... could the first word be dropped?
Remove "more mature", since that is indicated by "middle"?
Characteristic and characterised in the lead; no big deal, though.
"a defining document"—I'd rather think of it in its aural realisation rather than pieces of paper if we're to talk about defining a century.
I do find the use of commas idiosyncratic. I can cope, I guess. Sometimes they appear where you wouldn't think they're necessary ("Throughout this time his practice was to leave Vienna at the close of the Hofoper season for a summer retreat, where he could devote himself to composition.") Most writers would insert a comma after "death" to avoid "death performances". As now, it's "In the period following the composer's death performances were comparatively rare, but from the mid-20th century onwards the symphony has been heard regularly in concert halls all over the world, and has been recorded many times." I'd be inclined to do this: "In the period following the composer's death, performances were comparatively rare; but from the mid-20th century onwards, the symphony has been heard regularly in concert halls all over the world and has been recorded many times."
Deryck Cooke did something wonderful with the 10th, but I find "of utterance" highly pretentious or plain ambiguous in this quotation, to the point of wanting an ellipsis: "more stern and forthright ..., more tautly symphonic, with a". Better rhythm, anyway. I don't find the repetition of the "of" grammar in "of orchestration" convincing, either. Who is uttering? Not the prettiest word in Engish, either. And was he referrring to the lyrics? It's hard to say, which is unsatisfactory from the reader's point of view.
Thank you, Tony. I've done most of the tweaks you suggest. I queried "The" before the title when I began the article's expansion, but another editor was pretty insistent it should be there (see talkpage discussion), and I didn't feel strongly enough to the contrary to make an issue of this. Cooke use the term "document" in relation To Beethoven's Ninth, but I've altered it to "statement". I will run a comma check to see if I can iron out some idiosyncracies. Pleased to have your support. Brianboulton (talk) 10:07, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support I have nothing to add to this discussion apart from my full support. In a way, such well-prepared candidates can be a little frustrating because there is little positive criticism left to offer. Having said this, I didn't like "redraftings" but I can live with it :-) Graham Colm (talk) 14:47, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Sources look fine to me. One thing (hard to call it an "issue") I noticed is that British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) is used as the publisher for most sources except one, which uses simply BBC. Juliancolton (talk) 16:05, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This article describes the equine participants of World War I and the hardships they endured during the war. It has been through a thorough GA review, a peer review and a MILHIST A-class review, as well as having the eyes of several other editors upon it in the past few weeks. Malleus and Yomangan have been especially helpful in the pre-FAC polishing. All external links were working as of a few minutes ago, and there were no dab links. The article has had a pre-FAC image review by Jappalang. Thanks in advance for all comments and suggestions. Dana boomer (talk) 13:01, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments WOW!!! I've read this a few times in its development. It was always "good" and then "pretty good", but now it is excellent. I made a few tweaks—one verb construction and a missing comma—and I'll read it through again in the next few days, but it is in fine shape. It has a clear and obviously logical structure, the prose is enormously improved, pictures reflect the prose (although I'd love to see one by the Canadian artist), statistics are all there, etc. So, although I may have additional comments and tweaks to suggest over the next few days, I'll be the first to
It would seem better to link to the DOC document (and use the appropriate marking for that, such as |format=DOC or so in cite templates). Ucucha15:09, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment—Overall it looks pretty good, and I think it's close to FA quality. However, I have a few concerns that I would like to see addressed first:
"Ultimately, because the Allied blockade prevented the Central Powers from importing horses to replace those lost, a lack of horses contributed to Germany's defeat." This sentence doesn't seem completely logical. Perhaps, "Ultimately, the Allied blockade prevented the Central Powers from importing horses to replace those lost, which contributed to Germany's defeat"?
The sentence that begins "Beginning in 1917, cavalry was deployed..." discusses the battle of Cambrai. The following sentence does not. Thus the successive sentence that begins "During the battle, a..." appears disconnected. Does "the battle" refer to Cambrai here?
"The Western Front in World War I made it clear that cavalry was almost useless against modern artillery..." I am unclear how this is relevant. The prior sentences had noted the ineffectiveness against "trench warfare, barbed wire and machine guns", but artillery was never mentioned. Could this be clarified?
The sentence that reads "In a charge by French lancers in June 1918,..." seems disconnected from the rest of the paragraph. Could you clarify what is it trying to communicate? Perhaps a trend in French tactics? Or that this was an unusual act?
"The Germans stopped using cavalry on the Western Front not long after the beginning of the war, changing in response to the Allied Forces' new, more mechanized, battle tactics." The tank was not introduced until 1917, so this looks incorrect. In fact I'd almost say it looks badly in error. The Allies were notable for their reliance on obsolete tactics, and their main change (prior to 1917) was improvements in artillery fire. But perhaps I'm mistaken.
Some of the text doesn't correctly fit the main topic of their affiliated sections. The paragraph that begins "Feeding horses was a major issue..." has more to do with logistics than casualties. (There is only one sentence in the paragraph that has to do with the death of horses.) The paragraph that begins, "Animals bolstered morale at the front..." has little to do with Logistical support.
Perhaps the current "casualties" section could be re-entitled "casualties and logistics", or maybe "logistics and casualties"? This way the information on feeding could remain there, and the paragraph on morale and cleanliness could be moved from the logistical support section. One of my major problems with this article was some of the information not fitting neatly into one topic or another. Or would a section just on "logistics" be long enough? And would that be too confusing with the section on "logistical support" that is detailing how horses were used to support the rest of the forces, rather than on how the forces supported the horses? Dana boomer (talk) 18:18, 25 May 2010 (UTC) Further reply - after sleeping on this for a night, what about "Care and casualties" or "Casualties and care"? This would get us away from the logistics/logistical support issue, while still showing that the section was about a little more than just the horses that died/were injured. Dana boomer (talk) 13:07, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, or perhaps "Casualties and upkeep".–RJH (talk)
Thank you for your comments, RJHall. I have tried to address all of them, but have a few questions, especially on the last point. I look forward to your responses. Dana boomer (talk) 18:18, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
15: I can't relate the linked page to the citation details. Is this the right page?
Yes, this is the right page. The cite information was given to me by David Underdown (who commented above), and he has an actual copy of the article, so I think that the National Archives website just gives a garbled transcription of the article title. Dana boomer (talk) 16:00, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In view of the disparities in the title of the cited article, I wonder about the value of citing to a page which merely advertises the mis-named article for sale. Wouldn't a straight cite to the article itself be a better approach? Brianboulton (talk) 16:24, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well I was working on the principle of "Say where you got it", I've only viewed via the pdf available from there (you can view it free if you're on-site at The National Archvies at Kew, and potentially via the ATHENS portal, if your institution subscribes to that resource). David Underdown (talk) 16:34, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
30: The magazine is Undersea Warfare not Underseas Warfare
77: UNESCO is not the publisher of this website - it is the patron of the exhibition which this website describes. The publisher is art-ww1.com. The title should, I believe, be rendered as "Art of the First World War: 15 - Umberto Boccioni"
The article as published in Ancestors magazine was entitled "The unluckiest man", for some reason, on the DoucmetnsOnline page which allows you to download a pdf which includes the article, this has been switched to "The last British soldier to be killed in WW1" (which of course explaions why he might be considered the unluckiest man...). The ability to download the article is essentially a matter of convenience - back copies could probably be obtained from Wharncliffe (though to add a layer of complication, Ancestors magazine has now ceased, and The National Archives will be launching a new magazine later this year). Perhaps the title should be amended to "The unluckiest man (The last British soldier to be killed in WW1)" which covers all bases? David Underdown (talk) 16:42, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Predictably, I think it looks great. Added the author's date of birth and death to clear up that it's been out of copyright since 2005. Doug (talk) 02:49, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There were no "mechanized armored formations" in WWI.
Then what would you suggest I call something like the Royal Tank Regiment? Would it work better if I changed the sentence in the lead from "and many of the traditional functions of horse cavalry were replaced by mechanized armored formations." to something like "...horse cavalry began to be replaced by mechanized armored formations"? Dana boomer (talk) 13:28, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
RTR was a prototype tank regiment, but did not have the mechanised resources or tactical approach to justify suggesting that there were "mechanized armored formations" in WWI. Prototypes were deployed, intimitely comingled with and in support of a much heavier weight of foot soldiers. Guderian only came up with the concept of using "mechanized armored formations" after the war, so clearly they did not replace cavalry in WWI. I like that they were intended to replace the 'shock attack' function of cavalry, but that is where the similarity ends. The significance of the tank in WWI was largely constructed in the German propoganda and popular consciousness to justify the war's outcome. Doug (talk) 14:04, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's the particular term "mechanized armored formations" that has a distinct military meaning and that causes a problem, since they only became a reality two decades after the end of the war and had not been conceived at the time of the phasing out of cavalry. How about something along the lines of "Cavalry units were initially considered essential offensive elements of a military force, but over the course of the war, the manifest vulnerability of the horse to modern machine gun and artillery fire fostered interest in mechanized forces. This led to the development of tanks that would ultimately replace cavalry in the shock attack (ref from Blitzkrieg?)."? Doug (talk) 18:55, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
For referencing of the role of tanks in WWI: Willmott, H.P. (2003), First World War, Dorling Kindersley, ISBN1405300299; ISBN9781405300292 (pulled from tank).
Allright, I've replaced it with your proposed wording. As this is the lead, we don't need references for it. From my reading (anyone, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), this new summary wording is still supported by the information and references given in the introductory paragraphs of the Cavalry section. Dana boomer (talk) 20:03, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Many British tacticians realized before the war that advances in technology meant that the era of mounted warfare was coming to an end." Is have to disagree, even post-WWI Liddell-Hart was quite isolated while the cavalry officer class was dominant and obstinate. Let's not sugar-coat their gross misunderstanding of the impact of technology on war pre-WWI, despite the lessons of the Crimean War and the Charge of the Light Brigade.
My sources made it quite clear that cavalry officers were "dominant and obstinate". I tried to convey this in the article without straight-out calling them thick-headed, behind-the-times idiots, but I apparently didn't do that well :) The way my sources described it, the tacticians tried to get the military to realize that cavalry was outmoded, but the cavalry commanders (perhaps older, higher ranking?) completely over-rode them. Would you have a suggestion to make this more clear without my going into the realm of OR? Dana boomer (talk) 13:28, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well said :) I was caught by a perceived mismatch between the initial sentence and your subsequent explanation. This appears to be a common theme. Doug (talk) 14:04, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have tried to tweak the first two sentences of that paragraph to provide a bit more continuity. Did I make things better or worse? Dana boomer (talk) 17:19, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
" In the years following the war most armies became mechanized, which required many cavalry regiments to be converted to armored units." Firstly, 'most armies' did not become mechanised. Secondly, mechanised units were created (for example in Germany) from scratch, not 'converted' from cavalry units.
Changed to "In the years following the war many major armies became mechanized, and most cavalry regiments were either converted to mechanized units or disbanded." I'm using "major" in the sense that they were major world players, although I'm not sure if this is completely clear. It is any better now, though? Dana boomer (talk) 13:28, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How about "Following the war, the armies of the world powers initiated a process of mechanization in earnest, and most cavalry regiments were either converted to mechanized units or disbanded."? Doug (talk) 14:04, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am having a support-oppose relationship with this article. It tends to glorify horses where, although their contribution, nobility and suffering were immense, they were primarily draft animals and, in limited numbers, mounts for scouts in both world wars. There are also a number of questionable assertions regarding tanks and mechanised warfare, some of which I have highlighted above. Other than the accuracy issues, I really love the article: neat, concise, great prose, evocative and interesting. I'd support on FA criterion 1a, but the rest is too open for debate right now. Doug (talk) 04:20, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your comments, Doug, and for the 1a support. I have replied to your specific comments above (although with more questions than answers). If you have further specifics you would like to see changed, I am more than willing to work on them. I don't think, however, that the article has serious accuracy issues. I have tried to follow my sources closely and use only reliable scholarship, without delving into the realm of OR or speculation, and the article has already been reviewed by several military editors who didn't find serious errors in accuracy. That being said, I am interested in seeing further comments from you, and thanks again for your efforts on this article so far. Dana boomer (talk) 13:28, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your open attitude. I will rereview and try to avoid knee-jerk responses to common misconceptions regarding the military significance (negligible) and use (sparse, as infantry support) of tanks in WWI. Doug (talk) 14:04, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
LOL Doug, the article IS about horses so of course there is an emphasis! Focus is not "glorifiation," IMHO. (Full disclosure: I have been watching this article's evolution for months, am merely an involved copyeditor here, too COI to be part of the FAC, but not the primary researcher or contributor. AND I am diving in uninvited! (grin)) But on review of your comments, I have to express my 100% SUPPORT for this article's FAC and assure you that most of your concerns were already raised by others and addressed during the WP MilHist A-class review, where we had a lot of people wanting to bog the article down with extensive diversions and nuances about other areas of military equipment, tactics, etc., when the article is, as its title suggests, about the horse. The research Dana has done is extensive! Clearly, the verifiable contribution of six million animals with 25% of their losses occurring in battle clearly exceeds the common misperception that they were simply "draft animals and mounts for scouts." While your comments about tank warfare are helpful and Dana has expressed a clear desire to clarify any misperceptions or misinformation, the point of THIS article is the use of the horse and how WWI marked the transitional period between the use of horses and the use of assorted mechanized equipment as instruments of war. (Compare Horses in World War II, for both info on the changes in their use -- i.e. more true then that they were draft animals and mounts for scouts-- and an example of an article that Dana has NOT worked on! LOL!)
Also Doug, I want to encourage you in your own re-review of the article in light of the clarification Dana has provided and encourage you to address Dana's comments and questions with helpful specifics in line with your expertise. BUT - if you want Dana to keep the article as verified and accurate as it is already, can you provide us with appropriate source material to back up your assertions? You must have noticed that virtually every statement in the article has a citation, and Dana worked diligently to make sure that the contents of this article reflected the actual content of the source. (And note, the sources themselves may not have been experts on tank warfare, but still pass WP:V.) She is right that we cannot venture off into the realm of OR at this point in the game! Montanabw(talk)18:51, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Like I said, I am glad for your expertise and I am doubly glad to see the offer of citations. But don't put words in my mouth -- I at no time claimed that MilHist reviewers were experts, nor did I "insist that improvements are unnecessary". I was merely trying to avoid another round of what I considered to be nitpicking over tangentally related topics that drug out the A-class review for months. I also did not intend to imply that citations trump accuracy, though what I wrote could be construed that way and do apologize to that extent. My intent was simply to explain that experts on horse cavalry may not have been experts on tanks, thus the terms in the article reflect the source material used, which can modified by other source material. Montanabw(talk)20:47, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to AGF, despite that fact that you just deleted a good number of my comments. I understand your frustration with the length of the process. Doug (talk) 22:03, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Per my comments that Montana just deleted, Dana, please take check double linking of shock tactics and shock attack. Other edits look good.
Are you meaning the linking of shock tactics both in the lead and in the body? I think this is an acceptable use of linking twice to the same term, but if it's a big deal I can remove the second link. Dana boomer (talk) 14:25, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
With respect to Battle of Cambrai "...although this plan never came to fruition." is unclear. I gather from Battle of Cambrai that three British cavalry divisions were deployed but the attempted breakthrough by the cavalry was late, and failed. Perhaps a rephrase for clarity? Doug (talk) 22:03, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Typo: "only few weeks into the war half of all Austrian cavalry mounts were disabled" should be only "only a few weeks" Doug (talk) 22:03, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Combination of Canada and the US seems rather arbitrary, is there a reason for this? In the context of both World Wars Canada is more closely associated with the UK than the US. Canada's army was functionally and politically an extension of the British Army. Personally, I'd split them into two sections at the line of the paragraph break. Australia, New Zealand and Canada (as Empire) is also a more logical grouping. Doug (talk) 22:03, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I was trying to go for a geographical theme in the grouping. I also don't want to split it up into too many subsections, because a bunch of one-paragraph section looks really choppy. If you really think that these two need to be split up, what about this: Have a United Kingdom level three header (the same that Great Britain is now), with level four headers for Great Britain, ANZAC and Canada. Then have the US be its own level three header. Would this work? It's still more headers, but they're a lower level, so it would look less chopped up. Just some thoughts. Dana boomer (talk) 14:25, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Per your comment, and a couple of other editors bringing up the same issue, I have now rearranged the Cavalry section to follow the outline above. Please check and see if this is acceptable to you. Dana boomer (talk) 13:24, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Mea culpa on the comment deletion!!! That was unintentional, I thought the edit conflict was just my own double edit! Yesterday was sort of a suck-egg day for me, I was in a knee-jerk frame of mind myself. Montanabw(talk)22:50, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Provisional Support – Haven't read all of the article yet, but I have looked at a good piece of it and everything seems fine prose-wise. I did make a couple of little copy-edits, which should be checked, but didn't spot any significant problems. If I get to read the rest of the article, I'll bump this to a full support. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 14:53, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am nominating this for featured article because I feel it is ready to be taken through the FA review process and is almost at FA status. TimHAllstr (talk) 01:45, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the flipped version shouldn't have been uploaded over the original; and "original image reversed" ought to be added to the caption. Or a better image could be used—it's not very good. —innotata15:01, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've searched Flickr and the commons previously, but I'll look again. Any other sites? Also, I uploaded two images from flickr and they haven't appeared on the commons. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong.Vancemiller (talk·contribs·count·email)01:11, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have a problem with political maps as such, since for land-based species country boundaries make distribution clearer. Country boundaries are unhelpful but harmless here, but having US state boundaries is US-centric Jimfbleak - talk to me?
It was given its scientific name by Carolus Linnaeus in 1758. — worrying that there's an error in line one, Linnaeus named it Testudo caretta — I see you give the correct name later, but the first sentence is still factually incorrect
*In lead The loggerhead is considered an endangered species and is protected under the United States' Endangered Species Act. — US-centric, isn't it protected anywhere else?
In many places during the nesting season, workers and volunteers from organizations such as the Fripp Island, South Carolina, Turtle Patrol search the coastline for nests — is this the only place in the world this occurs? nonono
What would you suggest would be the best way to go about fixing this? I can't imagine it being practical to list every organization that deals with the conservation of sea turtles. Maybe I could list areas that have major organizations for the conservation of loggerheads and sea turtles in general?--TimHAllstr (talk) 22:24, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed: Rather than draw attention to one specific organization or counter with numerous specific organizations - best to generalize here and remove Fripp Island and replace with "volunteers" - perhaps add "around the world" if that is the case.--JimmyButler (talk) 04:21, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You rely almost exclusively on US sources, so Raccoons are the primary predators of loggerhead nests lacks credibility since these mammals do not occur in most of the turtle's range
Fixed instead of including every predator of the loggerhead in specific areas, I have instead just included all known predators in general.--TimHAllstr (talk) 01:37, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Almost 45% of the Mediterranean juvenile population has migrated from the Atlantic — doesn't make sense
What part of that statement is confusing? I'll try to fix it, but it makes sense to me. 45% of the juveniles residing in the Mediterranean came from the Atlantic meaning they weren't born in the Mediterranean but reside there for a portion of their lives. Does that make it clearer? Vancemiller (talk·contribs·count·email)02:01, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Are there any differences between the subspecies other than average size?
The Spotila book resource that is currently in my possession mentioned something about genetic differences, but the book was very vague and confusing in its description. I will work on finding more info regarding this.--TimHAllstr (talk) 23:51, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Up to 40% of nesting females have been recorded to show wounds believed to come from shark attacks — evidence? The source appears to be just for US and Canada.
The source is named Turtles of the US and Canada. It does not just give information on the sea turtles based only in this area. It gives information on the species as a whole because it is often found around the United States and Canada.--TimHAllstr (talk) 00:09, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Artificial lighting threatens loggerhead hatchlings, contributing to thousands of deaths per year. — evidence for this outside Florida, the only source given?
Only the US and Australia are quoted as having national conservation laws. Don't South Africa, India or any of the other countries have legislation? A quick search found this for example
Another read through later perhaps, but there seems to be a tendency to generalise from local studies to apparently global claims. This is more like Loggerhead turtles - a US perspective. There's no indication you've even looked at sources like this or thisJimfbleak - talk to me? 07:42, 25 May
We apologize for the US based article. Naturally, US-based sources have been the most readily available for us since we are a class from the US. I will work to make the article more worldly.--TimHAllstr (talk) 22:21, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Having said that, in the days of the internet, non-US sources are readily available, even if you restricted yourself to just English language publications. You have to make a conscious effort to write from a global perspective, it's too easy to produce an unbalanced article which looks fine to your compatriots but has glaring omissions to non-Americans. When I wrote Red-billed Chough, I was having to dump masses of UK-based research whilst scouring the remoter corners of the internet to find foreign and non-English sources. Despite the tone of my comments, I'm not unsympathetic to this article, but I'll wait now to see how it develops during FAC before deciding whether or not to support. Jimfbleak - talk to me?05:32, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sourcing issues: While the sources themselves seem on the whole to be OK, there are numerous problems relating to formatting and access.
What is the basis for listing some sources under the "Reference" headings, but not others?
It seems that some numbers have changed. For above, read 19, 60, 61 and 62. For 60, the magazine (EcoHealth) and other details (issue, date, ISSN etc) should be added. For 61, the year 2005 should be added to September 18, and Chicago Tribune should be italicised. For 62, add Marine Turtle Newsletter and the year, 2007. Brianboulton (talk) 22:47, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed I was unsure to as to what part of the citation I should put Marine Turtle Newsletter. Should it be listed as part of the title?--TimHAllstr (talk) 00:26, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
39: Is "Marine Ecology" a journal? If so you should give details such as volume and issue number, and a page reference, to enable the article to be traced. Similar point with 47 ("The Journal of Experimental Biology")
Access to 33, 53 and 55 appears to be restricted. Do these require subscriptions? If so this should be stated, using the (subscription required) template.
Note 63: the link goes to an unheaded page in handwriting. The internal link marked "Home" does not work, so how can the validity of this source be established?
The Wynne book details include a page range 104–05, yet in the notes there are citations to pages outside this range. You don't need to include this page range here, and I suggest it is deleted.
Comments – Read through about half of the article, and most of it looks quite good to me, though I'm not that knowledgeable in comprehensiveness or sourcing standards for species articles. I did find the following items, which are all minor:
"with the combination Caretta caretta being first introduced in 1902 by Leonhard Stejneger." The word "being" is making the sentence a bit awkward to read, and can safely be removed without harming the meaning.
"Two subspecies are recognized: C. caretta gigas in the Indian and Pacific Oceans, and C. caretta caretta in the Atlantic Ocean and the Mediterranean Sea.[5]"--I'd be interested to see what else the source says about this. What are the differences, do they account for the large range in size and weight, why were two subspecies recognized?
"Temperatures from 27–28 °C (81–82 °F) are best suited for nesting females.[12]"--this wording makes it sound like the water changes temperature for the female (I think it should be reworded to most suitable.)
"The return journey to the natal beaches in Japan was long suspected, although the trip would cross unproductive clear water with few feeding opportunities.[19]"--awkward wording, I think "was" and "would" may have to be changed.
I think the Evolutionary history section should explain why two subspecies are recognized (or maybe that can be done in the Taxonomy section and here it could be discussed how the subspecies came about).
Included in the taxonomy section because that was where the information originally was. Do you think it would be best to put it under evolutionary history?--TimHAllstr (talk) 23:51, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, it is more of a taxonomic issue, I was just wondering if you could turn up anything about how the differences in the two populations came about.--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 12:49, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This isn't a comment, just a compliment: I really like the info on sexing juveniles...good stuff.
"Escalation typically follows four steps"--Do the first two steps have specific names? The third and fourth are sparring and separation...right?
"Along the southeastern coast of the United States, the raccoon (Procyon lotor) is the most [...]"--Can't raccoon be linked in the first paragraph of this section?
On my browser there is a huge (20+ cm) white space before the map. Can this be fixed?
Strange, for me it appears right after the title. I will see if anyone else seems to have this problem and knows how to fix it.--TimHAllstr (talk) 14:07, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What browser are you using, this problem has not appeared to me. Are the synonyms in the taxonomy box expanded? I included a clear template before the picture in distribution because the list of synonyms was covered up by it and you couldn't read them. Also, do you have javascript enabled? Vancemiller (talk·contribs·count·email)14:31, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done -I think that I fixed this. I have tested it with Safari, Firefox, Internet Explorer and Chrome and it was okay before. I assume the issue was not having javascript enabled which expands the synonymy's on the right column, an issue in all browsers. Anyhow the clears have now been removed from the top of the article so excess spacing cannot appear. Regards, SunCreator(talk)15:53, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The images seem to be scattered at random. I would suggest either right-aligning all, or alternating left/right
For the most part, the images follow an alternating pattern. There are a few exception to make sure all the images face the text.--TimHAllstr (talk) 14:07, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"In Australia, the introduction of the red fox (Vulpes vulpes) by English settlers in the 19th century lead to significant reductions in turtle populations. In one coastal section in eastern Australia during the 1970s, predation of turtle eggs destroyed up to 95% of all clutches laid."--are these sentences talking about all turtles, or just the loggerhead?
"Up to 40% of nesting females have wounds believed to come from shark attacks.[38]"--the sentence before this was talking about loggerheads in the southeast U.S. ... is this sentence referring to those turtles as well?
"Separation into subspecies is based on color, body size, number of neural and peripheral bones and number of marginal scutes.[8]"--any info on which subspecies has the different characteristics (i.e. which is larger, what are the differences in color)?--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 02:40, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This information is from the Marquez reference.
The subspecific status should be re-assessed because the two described subspecies, one for the Pacific, Caretta caretta gigas and the other for the Atlantic, Caretta caretta caretta, are not valid in the light of available information, since they were based on characters showing considerable variation, principally colour, body size, number of neural and peripheral bones and number of marginal scutes (caretta 12-12, gigas 13-13). Most authors now recognize caretta as a single polymorphic species.
"During this seasonal migration, juvenile loggerheads have the ability to use both magnetic cues and visual cues.[51]"--this sentence is separated by quite a bit of text from the migration its talking about. Any way to rearrange this to make it clearer.
"if one aid is not available, the other suffices.[51] Female loggerheads first reproduce"--these ideas don't seem to flow...perhaps a paragraph reorganization would help.
Sure. I was confused by these sentence in several ways: "Nesting loggerheads have a straight carapace length of 70–109 centimeters (28–43 in). Seventy centimeters is the minimum size for breeding, although not all loggerheads begin breeding at this size. Therefore, carapace length is not a reliable indicator of sexual maturity.[52]" First, you say previously that the loggerhead reaches "a length range of 70 to 95 centimeters (28 to 37 in)," which leads me to believe that nesting loggerheads are somehow bigger than non-nesting loggerheads. Second, the wording of the second sentence may throw some readers off. It seems like your saying that 70 cm is the smallest size at which a loggerhead is ready to breed but that they may be bigger than this when they start breeding. Well...we already knew that because you gave us a range of lengths. Third, its placement (or at least its wording) is somewhat awkward. Are the readers to assume that loggerheads reach this length at "ages 28–33" or at "ages 17–30" or at "unknown" ages?--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 02:21, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's a little better, but why is this phrase even necessary: "however not all loggerheads begin breeding at the minimum size?" Also, I am still unsure if the length correlates to the age in any significant way.--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 21:57, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Multiple paternity is possible due to sperm storage. The female can store sperm from multiple males in her oviducts until ovulation.[60]"--This needs to be moved next to the other text concerning this.
"They uncover them, count the eggs, and, if necessary, relocate them for protection from threats such as high spring tides and predators. The nests are checked daily for disturbances."--suggest merging
The last section "Conservation efforts" needs a link to the Threatened species and/or Endangered species article. If there already is a link the this/these in another part of this article, ignore this comment.
Helgoland was a German battleship built before World War I, the ship saw extensive service throughout the war and played a central role in the Wilhelmshaven mutiny. This article is comprehensive; it includes information from a widely known (at least in the field) diary of a sailor from the ship as well as the recently published book (Feb. 2010) by Gary Staff. The article was thoroughly copyedited by Dank during the A-class review in March of this year. I look forward to any and all comments aimed at improving the article and helping me to ensure it meets the criteria for a featured article. Thanks in advance to all reviewers. Parsecboy (talk) 11:39, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
More than likely German, hence why it's uploaded here on en.wiki and not Commons, because it cannot be verified to be PD in Germany. Parsecboy (talk) 15:21, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see what the problem with this source is; it establishes that it's PD in the United States, which is all we need. I have not come across the image anywhere else. Parsecboy (talk) 15:32, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
wp has a clear m:mission, the FAC requires appropriate licensing of media, the description implies it was first published in the US, yet the licensing does not, and I would like this contradiction removed. 21:53, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
I think you misunderstand the 1923 cut-off. The 1923 cut-off doesn't require a document to be published first in the United States before anywhere else in the world, just that it be published at some point before 1923 in the US. This image demonstrably meets that requirement. Parsecboy (talk) 22:08, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The licensing and sourcing are correct. Pre-1.1.1923 publication applies to both works first published in the US and abroad (see here). I don't see anything contradictory in the description or license. Эlcobbolatalk19:57, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. From other A-class reviews, we know that not everyone is on board (aboard?) with "(SMS is the German equivalent of the British HMS.)" That was my addition; I didn't think we should expect the general reader to know what SMS means, but there were no objections to the way it was done in SMS Erzherzog Franz Ferdinand: "SMS Erzherzog Franz Ferdinand (German: "His Majesty's ship Archduke Franz Ferdinand") was ...". We don't have to translate the ship name here, but most readers won't know the reference (and may stumble on the alternative spelling of the archipelago), so we could take the opportunity to link it, if this is agreeable to everyone: "SMS Helgoland (German: "His Majesty's ship Helgoland"), the lead ship ...". - Dank (push to talk) 17:10, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"On 17 January, Ingenohl ordered Helgoland to go back to the docks for more maintenance. It wasn't until 20 January that the ship successfully entered the drydock, owing to difficulties ...": I'm not making the edit because it's just a personal preference, but I recommend something tighter, maybe "... for more maintenance, but she didn't enter the drydock until three days later ...". - Dank (push to talk) 04:45, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure. Herr Stumpf is pretty sketchy on dates; a lot of the time he'll just say a day of the week for something. Parsecboy (talk) 11:21, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The paragraph that begins "At 20:15" needs some attention to the units. In particular, I just don't see "in" as a unit very often because it looks like, well, "in"; please use "inch" unless it's the second unit in a conversion. - Dank (push to talk) 04:59, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support per usual disclaimer; I prefer not to wear so many hats (it gives me a big head!), but the reviews aren't exactly piling in. Authoritatively referenced, doesn't seem to me to omit anything, an interesting narrative, and adequately copyedited (grin). - Dank (push to talk) 04:00, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment regarding File:War Ensign of Germany 1903-1918.svg: I very much doubt R-41 was alive in 1903 and designing flags for Wilhelm II. As the creator of a mere derivative, R-41 is not the rights holder and cannot, therefore, release it into the public domain. That's not to say this isn't public domain, only that the license information needs to be corrected accordingly (e.g. {{PD-Flag-Germany}} - not a redlink on the Commons). Эlcobbolatalk19:57, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, I've been through about a dozen German warship FACs that all used that image over the past year and a half or so, and that has never been caught. That deserves a barnstar or something. I've replaced the license tag on the image per your suggestion. Parsecboy (talk) 21:24, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I notice that a couple of quite old books (Herwig, 1980 and Schwarz, 1986) have 13-digit ISBNs. The 13-digit format was introduced in 2007 which suggests you are using more recent editions of these books. The dates should be adjusted accordingly.
Scheer book: "Ltd" requires a capital
What is the function of the (1) after the title of the Staff (2010) book?
But... Non-sources issue. The parenthetical note (German: "His Majesty's Ship Helgoland") is extremely confusing because, I believe, the wording is English. It is the English rendering of the ship's German title and therefore should read "(English: His Majesty's Ship Helgoland)"Brianboulton (talk) 23:17, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: The Osborne book still requires publisher's location (presumably Bloomington); "Ltd" still requires a capital L. The meaning of the parenthetical (1) would be clear if you wrote (Volume 1).Brianboulton (talk) 10:21, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I fixed everything as you suggested; a check to Worldcat confirms Bloomington. As for the (1), I left it as that originally because that's how it is on the book cover; I didn't think we could alter the title for clarity. Parsecboy (talk) 12:09, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Why did the crews mutiny? I know very little about WWI, and I'd never heard of the mutiny. From reading this blurb, it sounds like the Armistice was planned, and the sailors mutineed - did they not want the war to end?
They wanted to survive to the end of the war; their commanders wanted to use them as cannon fodder in the hope that it would weaken England after the war. I'll add something to make this a little clearer. - Dank (push to talk) 15:59, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"The following day, a sailors' council took control of the base. That same day," - Just a bit confused, was "that same day" the 5th or 6th?
We're tripping over each other ;) I added a line to clarify why the sailors revolted, which was namely that they thought the operation would sabotage the peace process. Parsecboy (talk) 16:01, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Viewed one way, Peter Halkett was a visionary genius a hundred years ahead of his time who was one of the first to see the implications of the newly-invented invention of rubberised fabric, and had his designs gained wider acceptance Titanic would have had a happy ending as Jack ferried Rose to safety on one of the cheap and tightly-stacked collapsible lifeboats stored on every ship. Viewed the other way, Peter Halkett was an English eccentric of the type the 19th century produced so many of, with a crackpot vision of top-hatted Victorian gentlemen and their trusty flat-capped servants navigating their way up the Northwest Passage on a flotilla of umbrella-propelled cloaks.
This one's short, but as far as I'm aware it covers everything that has been written on the topic. The Arctic expeditions of the early 19th century are an unfashionable and almost forgotten piece of history today; while a lot of books on the period mention Halkett boats in passing, to the best of my knowledge Stephanie Pain's 2009 paper and the 1955 Beaver article are the only pieces published in reliable sources that cover Halkett's designs in detail. Credit to Malleus for a lot of thankless chopping and cleaning of the original article. – iridescent21:30, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Pre-emptive responses: (1) I'm aware that Canadian Arctic is slightly inaccurate as some of these territories hadn't yet been formally incorporated into Canada, but I assume people will understand what's meant. I really don't want to go down the "Northern Lower Canada, Rupert's Land, the British Arctic Islands and the undefined territory between present-day Nunavut and Alaska" route. (2) No, there's no way to write a "legacy" section. Modern inflatable boats were introduced in the Second World War, but there's nothing to suggest that their designers on either side were aware of Halkett. (3) No, I can't find a source for how much they cost and how many were made; I can find catalogue entries for them but nothing giving a price, and I suspect they were built to order and priced according to specifications. – iridescent21:30, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Spurred on by the successful testing of the boat-cloak" - before this the article states that testing had to be abandoned?
It was successfully tested in the Thames. The seaworthiness tests in the Bay of Biscay were abandoned due to the calm weather, but those were just Halkett testing its limits—it was never intended to be used in open seas (see the footnote). – iridescent22:10, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"John Franklin bought one to take on the ill-fated 1845 expedition in which the entire expedition party of 129 men and two ships vanished.[11] Franklin saw the boats as so essential to travel in Canada that he gave this boat to Sir George Simpson, Governor-in-Chief of Rupert's Land, for use in his travels in the region.[12][note 2]" - did Franklin not go on the first expedition, or did he change his mind and give the boat away before he went?
Franklin was planning his forthcoming expedition, and had the boat in readiness. Simpson had been appointed Governor of Rupert's Land (modern central Canada), and Franklin gave him the boat to make it easier to get around between the isolated outposts of his territory. Franklin ordered a replacement from Halkett, which was delivered in time for the Franklin expedition. – iridescent22:10, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You might want to clarify that then. I had to read the sentence a few times to work out what I thought was happening, and I still wasn't clear until I read the above. Parrotof Doom22:24, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Keen to find out what had become of the ships and men of Franklin's expedition, in 1848 the Royal Navy sent an expedition led by John Richardson and John Rae to search for the party, equipped with a Halkett boat provided by the government" - this makes it appear as though "the party" was equipped with a Halkett boat.
Not sure how to word it. (Both parties were in fact equipped with Halkett boats.) "An expedition led by John Richardson and John Rae, equipped with a Halkett boat, to search for the party" to me reads like the boat was going to do the searching, not Richardson and Rae. – iridescent22:10, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That one's disposable if anyone else objects to its being there—if removed, it will leave a long stretch with no images (which is part of the reason I added it). I'd vehemently object to removing any of Halkett's drawings, all of which show things I'd consider essential to understanding the concept of Halkett boats and how they differ from both the standard rubber dinghy and the traditional kayak. – iridescent22:24, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I really don't want this to look like a pile-on fan support, but when I reviewed this recently at GAN my first thought was "Why is this here? Why isn't it at FAC?" MalleusFatuorum22:37, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
SupportComment. Generally looks good. It certainly is extremely concise. You mention that several sources refer to them "in passing". I looked at one - Arctic hell-ship (2007), and it indicates their use in the 1850-52 voyage of the HMS Enterprise, and some comments about them leaking (i agree - in passing). This would seem a higher quality source than the New Scientist article and perhaps slightly more detailed in some respects. It also gives a different name to the leader (richard Collinson) to the 1848 expedition (John Richardson and John Rae), suggesting these are two separate expeditions that used the boats, and could then be covered separately in the article. In terms of its reception by coleagues and the Inuit, the remarks by Sherard Osborn in The Polar regions: or a search after Sir John Franklin's expedition might be worth considering. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:50, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Arctic Hell-ship does mention them, but it seems all to be fairly trivial mentions, other than the brief anecdote about one capsizing in a storm—I can't see anything that adds any technical detail as to the design. I was aiming for a concise narrative arc (Peter Halkett grows up listening to tales of Franklin's 1819–22 disaster from his father → he resolves to think of a way to stop it happening again → he invents the inflatable boat → Franklin uses it and dies anyway → Rae uses them successfully and proves the concept is viable). I don't really want it to go down the List of expeditions that were equipped with Halkett boats route if it can be avoided; there were quite a lot of expeditions in this period, many of which would have taken one, and thus I've tried to limit it to those (Franklin, Rae, Bellot) who fit into that broader narrative. There's also an issue in that in the 1850s Thomas Hancock and Charles Goodyear invented the rubber dinghy (they seem to have come up with the idea independently), which although it differs from the fabric-based and sharp-prowed Halkett boat is the same basic concept; thus, unless it specifically mentions Halkett's name it's impossible to say whether "Foo was equipped with an inflatable boat" refers to a Halkett boat or not.
I think the Sherard Osborn quote has a period charm, and if there were space I'd definitely include it in a quote-box to provide background colour (I don't think it adds enough to make it worth sacrificing one of Halkett's drawings to free up space, though), but I'm not sure there's really anything usable in it as a source, other than as another source for the fact that yes, people really did use the things.
I've no concerns about Stephanie Pain as a reliable source; she's a respected writer on the history of science and engineering (and Associate Editor of New Scientist). NS isn't always reliable at the time of printing—because they're a weekly when all the other major science periodicals are monthly, they sometimes cut corners to be first with the news—but they're scrupulous about corrections, and their broad cross-disciplinary readership means that errors generally get spotted and fixed very quickly. – iridescent09:34, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Taking pts in reverse: 1. sorry, i didn't want to suggest i had any issues with NS as a source, only that a scholarly book if available is perhaps superior. 2. Agree about the period charm, but that the pictures are more important. 3. While a long "List of expeditions that were equipped with Halkett boats" would be undesirable, i think you are in no danger of succumbing to that problem :-) But I do think mentioning their repeated use in hte post-Franklin voyages is worth half a sentence or so. In this particular csae there's no danger of dinghy / Halkett confusion as they are identified by that particular name in the text. I'll have a shot perhaps. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:34, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment—no dab links, no dead external links (and no dashes to fix either, you leave me nothing to do). Ucucha07:08, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sourcing and referencing: An irritating feature of the "cite journal" template is that, unlike "cite book", it reveals page numbers unadorned, without explanation as to what they are - as for example, in refs 2, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13. To overcome this, and to achieve consistency with other formats, it is necessary to enter the page field in the cite journal as "page= p. xxx". That way, page numbers are properly identified. I have done this with the Dickens ref, perhaps you could do the rest?
Support: Another short and interesting read that covers most of the bases on this little innovation, and what an innovation! The sight of the umbrella held tightly in the boater's hand to catch the wind is hilarious! Yet it worked. I have to wonder now why special forces have to lug around inflatable boats when they could be wearing these (heh). Jappalang (talk) 10:53, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That is something I've wondered as well. Halkett was working with canvas and rubber; with modern synthetic fabrics, I'm not sure why one couldn't make boats small enough to fit into a pocket. The principles are still sound; Halkett would certainly recognise the Sevylor boats still in use today. – iridescent11:10, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Halkett boatrefers to two types of lightweight inflatable boat designed by Lt Peter Halkett (1820–1885) during the 1840s."—possible use-mention problem. The replacements I can think of, however, seem worse, and I think it's less of a biggie here because the article is about two boat types so named.
"Peter Halkett was in the 1840s a Lieutenant in the Royal Navy."—feels like it lacks commas ("Halkett, in the 1840s, a ...") or like in the 1840s belongs at the end of the sentence.
Dates are consistent Day Month Year in text. There's Day Month Year accessdates and ISO style publish dates in the refs. It's good and consistent, but I think just using one format for all the refs would be even better (and I think just using Day Month Year all around the article would be ideal).
I'm not a big fan of "whilst" (as opposed to "while"). I'm motivated there by Tony1's 1a userpages, though, and don't think it's wrong in any way.
Otherwise, article looks good. I'm simply not familiar enough with the boats to speak for the article's completeness or accuracy. However, the body and lead look crisp and good, the subject is explained deeply and quite well (especially for the length), and new people are briefly and nicely introduced, so I'll partial-support as above. If I ever made a product, I'd take "although in constant use for upwards of six weeks on a rocky coast it never required the slightest repair" and "ought to form part of the equipment of every expedition" as one hell of a compliment; given that, it's a shame the boats were ultimately just abandoned. --anoddname03:25, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! Answering in order:
Regarding the lead, I think "Halkett boat refers to" is correct (as opposed to "Halkett boats refer to"). They refer to two different designs, both called "Halkett boat". As there are other boats of a similar design (most obviously the Sevylor boats I mention above) it needs to be clear that it refers to the specific designs of Halkett, not the general type.
I can see no obvious way to reword "Peter Halkett was in the 1840s a Lieutenant in the Royal Navy". "Peter Halkett, a Lieutenant in the Royal Navy in the 1840s, was…" would merge two already-long sentences. It needs to get across the specific point that he designed them during his service in the Navy.
I always use ISO-style dates in refs, and one of the user-friendly ones in the text itself. My think is (and always has been) that the references are one of the few things in an non-list article which someone could conceivably want to sort, and the ISO format dates make it much easier. It also makes it easier for bots to cope with; Wikipedia's bots can generally cope with varying date formats, but not necessarily our mirrors—and everything I do is done with at least half an eye on whether it will survive a migration to a possible Wikipedia II. (Both the MediaWiki interface and the WMF itself are clumsy botch-jobs handling a task they were never designed to cope with, and sooner or later one or the other will be replaced.)
I disagree with Tony over "whilst" (and with a lot of his misplaced formality section—utilize, for instance, is most certainly not a synonym of use). This is an article in British English on a British topic, and "whilst" is perfectly ordinary British English usage, not any kind of archaism or pretentiousness. – iridescent19:26, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I want to start that particular section with his name if at all possible; its purpose is to show why an English sailor who'd never lived in Canada should have (a) have an interest in the Arctic, and (b) be so interested in the design of portable boats. – iridescent19:51, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
A spiffing-eh-what-chap! footnote in the history of aviation, all reviewers are required to listen to "Those Magnificent Men in their Flying Machines" while reading this article. Parrotof Doom14:24, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sources: All sources look OK. It would be best to standardise the format of the ("Registration required") tag which is located differently in ref. 3 than elsewhere. Brianboulton (talk) 15:46, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
One of the most enjoyable reads I've had lately. Structure, referencing and detail look fine. I get the subtlety about the format of the 'race' so fair enough about going back to the original wording in the lead.
As for "take-off", I'm still a bit dubious about the action being the same format as the noun, e.g. "take-off and landing" looks right but "He planned to take-off" doesn't. Can you just double-check the OED on that?
Quite correct, in my haste using WikEd I forgot to check each instance. The OED uses gives several variations as examples, but take-off seems the most appropriate. A search for "takeoff" just redirects to "take off" or "take-off". Parrotof Doom13:44, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Given you seem to be using words for figures under 10 elsewhere, "5 miles" should probably be "five miles"...
My one suggestion re. the excellent supporting materials is that the images could stand to be rendered larger, plus you could alternate left and right with the quote boxes, i.e. since you have Paulhan's quote on the left following his image on the right, why not do the same for Grahame-White? Anyway, jolly good show all round -- rather! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:32, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fair point, I've rearranged the quote boxes. For images however, I prefer to use the standard thumb size, for small screens large images can create havoc. Thanks for the support. Parrotof Doom13:44, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, the portraits of the aviators are okay at the default size from where I sit. However I notice the lead image size is forced now to something much greater than default; the new one at night on the other hand looks really tiny as a standard thumb... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:01, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah that happened as the result of a discussion about the image licences, I uploaded a full size one and it rescaled accordingly. I think a slightly larger image is probably ok at the top as the contents box breaks things up, but lower down the text and quote boxes will end up squashing together. I'm not fussed about the nighttime image though, if anyone wants to make it bigger I don't mind. Parrotof Doom08:11, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Images okay: the two portraits of the aviators are from the Bain Collection, which Commons have accepted to be in the public domain so far. The photo of the flight (and all Flight-copyrighted images in that issue) is in the public domain by virtue of publishing before 1923 (US) and corporate authorship (UK). A Commons gallery or category about this event could be generated from the drawings/photos in this issue of the magazine if anyone is willing to do so. Jappalang (talk) 09:27, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support: Pip, pip, tallyho, and all that. A fine read of these chaps' flights, as they flit into the wide blue yonder and outrace cars. Short but comprehensive and enjoyable article, nothing substantial to gripe about or to oppose on. Cheerio! Jappalang (talk) 09:27, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support: Very well written and nice to see 'aeroplane' being used ('aircraft' is the neutral international term that the aviation project has mainly settled on to avoid arguments, 'aeroplane' is entirely acceptable and that is indeed what they were called back then, it's the word 'plane' that causes the problems). Only one thing that I noticed, the site of Hendon is mentioned as 'what is now Hendon Aerodrome' if I read the context correctly. Hendon aerodrome is now the site of the Royal Air Force Museum London which has a hangar display dedicated to Grahame-White. You could probably squeeze that in somewhere ('See also' section?). Nice job. Nimbus(Cumulus nimbus floats by)22:17, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I did make a concious decision to use aeroplane instead of aircraft, it suits the article more I think. Interestingly enough, lots of the sources used the term "airship", but I thought that would be a bit confusing :) Parrotof Doom22:35, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hendon was my father's first RAF posting, probably not far off closing the station at that time. Airship?! These things were so new that they didn't know what to call them! I agree that the museum stuff should go in CGW's article if it is not there already (have not looked), the museum article does need expanding, too much to do! There is a standard template Template:Infobox aviation that could be used for the top of the article, it would make the image smaller but repeats the title, I was going to add it but saw the alt text which the template doesn't support, would like some clarification on the policy of alt text from the FA team, quite confusing at the moment (it's still in the check toolbox for instance). Nimbus(Cumulus nimbus floats by)22:59, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It shouldn't be too much trouble to add an alt text parameter to the aviation infobox template if you guys want to make use of it. I managed to add it myself to the aviator infobox template when I put Lester Brain up for FAC recently, and I gave up coding for a living years ago.... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:40, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We are lacking a template coder and updater in the av project at the moment, I am fairly clueless with them sadly. My understanding is that alt text is no longer an FA requirement, it appears from recent discussions that it never was, one editor slipped a line unnoticed into the guidelines somewhere and there you go. I'm all for accessibility and even thought of trying to produce some spoken articles, just need clarification on the matter. Nimbus(Cumulus nimbus floats by)23:50, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it's a grey area in practice; whether its adoption as a guideline was really legit or not, it seems enough of us have accepted or agreed with it to make it a de facto requirement. My suggestion is that if Parrot adds the aviation infobox here, that's impetus to add the requisite parameter to it so all images in the article consistently have alt text as they do now. When/if I have time I may just update the template anyway; having the parameter doesn't mean one is forced to use it... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:07, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That infobox doesn't seem to be a particularly well fleshed-out example, and wouldn't really add much at present. Perhaps there ought to be a new infobox, for pioneering achievements across the board? I may return to the subject of aviation, I'm sure I can find more things that these two got up to, however, I started this because it contained Manchester in the title :) Parrotof Doom08:04, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. No long essay this time, as I've been watching this one during its gestation and any issues have been resolved along the way. The one thing I'd change is "The event marked the first long-distance race in England" – presumably it was actually the first long-distance aircraft race. – iridescent14:10, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the compliments, I'm hoping to add a bit more at some point about the two aeroplanes used (both Farman III's but slightly different). Parrotof Doom16:29, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Hello everyone. I am here today in the sincere hope that the old adage "third time is the charm" proves true. This is the third trip to FAC for No Line on the Horizon, an album released by God Bono and the rest of the U2 gang just over a year ago. Both previous FAC nominations seemed to fail primarily as a result of the lack of reviews; what was brought up at those times (as well as the GAN and three peer reviews) has been addressed as well as my editing schedule on Wikipedia permits. In recent days it has undergone some copyediting (many thanks to Steve for his continual assistance to me on this), which I believe now means that the article meets all of the FAC criteria. Do you agree? Disagree? Just felt like dropping by to laugh at a badly written nomination? Whatever your reason for stopping by and reading this, I hope that the article proves an interesting and thorough read on the topic at hand. Cheers, MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 04:21, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It is the cover art; kind of necessary for it to be included in the article. It qualifies as fair use since it is being used to illustrate the album. The rationale for its use is covered on the file page. MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 13:26, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Explain to me how it is an inappropriate usage of the image, and how it fails the FAC criteria. It meets the guideline regarding Non-free images at WP:NFCI: "Cover art from various items, for identification only in the context of critical commentary of that item". Critical commentary on the cover art is present. So tell me: how is the use inappropriate, and how does it fail the FAC criteria? MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 15:30, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Guidelines are nothing more than advice on how to do things, the policy is much more important, the guideline refers to criteria one of the policy only. The image can be easily be described with text, and the reference you have given is more than an adequate description Fasach Nua (talk) 16:50, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I do not know of any pop album that doesn't contain a FU low res image of the album cover, whether they are featured articles or not. However, I've never done a survey so I'd be happy to have them pointed out. Have you had this discussion before on album covers, either about a specific album, or more generally? I'd say it's fair to assume there's broad acceptance on their use. --Merbabu (talk) 22:59, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Really? In a FAC nomination for a music album, someone is objecting to an image of the album cover? If someone is going to review an album FAC nomination, the least they can do is review previous music FA articles to familiarize themselves with standards/things that are acceptable. The album cover is used to identify the subject of the article, just like in every other FA album article. The argument that the cover could be removed and simply be described with prose in its place can be made for any image ever made. These types of objections are not constructive to passing/failing this article. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 02:28, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, I don't like Fair Use, but I do not see this as a reason to fail an FAC as fair use in this context has broad acceptance. Agree with Y2kcrazyjoker that this FAC is not the place to discuss the merits, or otherwise, of fair use images on album pages as it has wikipedia wide implications. There might be a relevant project page to do so. --Merbabu (talk) 02:33, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
After conversing with a few other users I can see the reasoning behind Fasach Nua's stance a bit more clearly, but I do (and will continue) to disagree with it. Yes, non-free content should be kept to a minimum, but there is a fine balance between reaching that minimum and going beyond it. I do not know of any FA article on a song or album which does not contain cover artwork. The common sense consensus appears to be that album artwork is an instance where fair-use images are acceptable, and I would say that their removal is definitely reaching well past that fine balance. I do not plan on removing the image on the article, but will leave it up to all of the other reviewers to determine for themselves if the inclusion of the album artwork in the article is acceptable or not. MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 04:04, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments. Hello from your neighbor FAC to the north. :) I took a quick peek at this article, and although it is well-referenced and the prose is readable, I have some concerns:
"In July 2006, U2.com confirmed that the band were collaborating with producer Rick Rubin, in southern France and Abbey Road Studios"
Sort of strange phrasing here. One place they were recording was a studio, the other was the southern half of a country. If the source gives a more detailed location for where they were recording, you should probably include it here. (If it doesn't, there's not much you can do).
Yes, this was something that I'd looked at before the last peer review. None of the sources that I could find said what the exact recording location in France was, so I think that we're unfortunately stuck on this point. MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 04:04, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"An interview with Q revealed that will.i.am had worked with the band "
I suggest adding the word "rapper" in front of will.i.am so readers don't have to click on will.i.am to figure out who he is. Possibly most people interested in U2 will not have heard of him.
"The band reworked it with Steve Lillywhite during a break in the recording with Eno and Lanois."
Is it explained earlier in the article who Steve Lillywhite is? Producer? Musician? The curious reader wonders.
At the end of the Rick Rubin section the article reads "[U2] subsequently employed Brian Eno and Daniel Lanois as principal producers and co-writers. Steve Lillywhite was also brought in to produce a few of the tracks." Do you think producer be slipped in there to clarify? MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 04:11, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
""Get on Your Boots" stemmed from a guitar riff The Edge created and recorded at his home."
I know who The Edge is, and you know who The Edge is, but please pity the poor reader who doesn't know, and explain who he is. "U2 guitarist" will do.
The Edge is introduced as the guitarist earlier in the article, during the Eno/Lanois sessions section ("In November 2008, guitarist The Edge noted that the band were scrambling..."); is the next mention far enough down that a second introduction is needed, or is it fine as is? MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 04:11, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nice opening, but does a band have a career? Perhaps that's just for musicians, but I'll stand corrected if I'm wrong. "since U2's inception in [year]"?
WP:OVERLINK: "producer" (which is a chain-link from his name, anyway).
", but" twice in two sentences (one without the comma).
"The band had planned"—rhyming jingle. "intended"?
re-scheduled has a hyphen? Unsure.
"many noted"—ah, see our new WP:Words to avoid guideline. Did they note it inside their heads or in public? Not sure. "Observed" is no good, since it's a kind of subjective call.
How about a comma instead of "titled". Same later on.
I haven't looked further than the lead. It's not bad, but probably needs an independent copy-edit.
PS Over at the constabulary, they're a little jittery about 30 s sound-bites (WP:NFCC#2) when the album is still selling well. I've put on a turn there over their utter inflexibility, but beware of this fair-use claim. In any case, could you put it on the right-side under the quote-box? Tony(talk)12:54, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your comments thus far; I've made changes to all of the points you've brought up about the lead. I did ask a few people if they would be able to do a copyedit before I nominated, but they seemed to think that the current prose is acceptable (and my eyes are so saturated from this article that I doubt I'd see anything no matter how hard I looked!). I think I'll leave the "Moment of Surrender" sound sample as is for the moment since it does comply with the length standards; if the length does become an issue then it shouldn't be too difficult to reduce it by a couple of seconds. MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 16:20, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. I think Tony is probably right in that certain sections will need a polish. All I really did was smooth out some of the bumpier parts, hopefully leaving few enough passages-with-issues that anything specific could be resolved during the FAC. I still stand by that, but if no-one's chipped in with a detailed prose review by the middle of the week—with specific, easily-actionable comments—I'll try to have another run through. One thing: I disagree with Tony's comment about the opening passage; IMO, it's more idiomatic to say "of U2's career" than "since U2's inception". Plus, the latter (very, very faintly) implies there was a longer gap, way back when. So whom do you listen to? Rock, meet hard place. :-D (I'll have a think on it and try to come up with a third way.) SteveT • C17:54, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
There are an overwhelming number of (sometimes complex) tables and infoboxes in this article:
A too-long album infobox. You can make this shorter and simpler just by replacing those recording studios (which should be dealt with in the prose) with "June 2007 – December 2008 at various location".
Formats table—I suggest removing this entirely. Albums are normally released in a variety of formats; the way you have them listed here is like a shopping catalogue that would interest only the avid collector. At best it can be summarised in two more sentences of prose
Review infobox—can also go, because the format of the table is such that you have to include to less-prestigious sources (Blender, RTE) at the expense of highly respected publications such as Time and The New York Times, due to the presence/absence of star ratings in the reviews. Ultimately, the infobox fails to summarise the critical opinion sufficiently.
I'm a little leery about removing this. The New York Times may be well known in America, but in the UK people will be much more likely to look at a source such as Blender when looking for reviews. MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 19:12, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Track listing—jeez this is complicated. But I guess there is no other way. However, I can't say I've seen too many rock album tracklistings with a producer column...
Charts—Fine, but two things—what year did the singles chart? And certifications does not equate no of copies sold. It indicates no of copies shipped. So unless you have sources that explicitly mention "the album sold [so many] copies", don't include that column.
I've added the year to the singles table; when the fourth single is released, I'll add a year column to the left-side to make it easier. I disagree with your point on the certifications though. Most album articles I've looked at have them, and I think they are an important component relating to their reception. I will remove the Sales thresholds though if you think that it's addition is mistaken. MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 14:01, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Succession boxes—And this improves the article how? (I generally have never seen the point of succession boxes—why the focus on #1 albums only, for one.) Also, unreferenced. Strongly suggest removal.
Whoah, wait... succession boxes are part of a chain. If all other #1 albums have them this will be a broken link. So the argument shouldn't be whether there's a succession box on this article but whether either they should ALL go or whether they should ALL stay which is outside the scope of this review. Personally I like those boxes because they put an album in its immediate historical context. But, as I say, you have to argue for them all or for none at all. If the adjacent albums had succession boxes I would strongly argue that this album should have one too, otherwise we're messing with people who want to navigate through a chronological procession of album articles. --bodnotbod (talk) 12:09, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
While I'm not a lover of all succession boxes either, I oppose removing these, because it breaks the chain. It has to be a project-wide decision at WP:WikiProject Music or some such similar project to either do this or not do this everywhere. It can't be done on an article-by-article basis. Also, I don't think referencing should be an issue – it's up to each individual article to cite that it was a number one album on a given chart, and the boxes just link these 'distributed references' together. The maintainers just need to ensure that no album gets skipped, but they are pretty good at that. Wasted Time R (talk) 11:09, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If it's a Project-wide decision for them to be included and needs a Project-wide consensus to be removed then it seems that it is bigger than this one article. As a result I've restored it for now. Melicans (talk, contributions) 11:28, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ovelinking—street sign, stadium, set designer, limited editions. Audit throughout.
I think the Main article tags are unnecessary for the tour and Linear; just link their first instance in the prose of the section.—indopug (talk) 16:14, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just looking at the "Reception" section, I have several concerns. The box's review ratings are very U.S.-UK centric – 9 from them and 1 from Ireland. U2 is a band with global appeal, so what about the rest of the world? Continental Europe, Asia, South America? Even if you don't translate a review article, the stars graphics (or their equivalent) are easy to see.
I've added one or two reviews, but it's proving very difficult to find any in continental Europe and Asia with a star system. One that I did add from Spain was removed just a few minutes ago for that reason. Melicans (talk, contributions) 16:46, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
After a few days of searching I haven't found anything from continental Europe, Asia, or Oceania (foreign or English language) which assigns a star rating that can be included. I'm afraid it looks like we're stuck with what we've got. Melicans (talk, contributions) 15:27, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've added in the MTV Asia and Herald Sun reviews and removed the Entertainment Weekly and The Guardian accordingly. I'm a little leery about adding in any others at the behest of major music publications like Rolling Stone, Q, or Mojo though. It's noted on the talk page (I think in the archives) that the present breakdown of reviews reflects the Metcritic average (72) fairly closely, and I'm hesitant about adding in lower ratings from less known sources at the expense of higher ratings from well known sources for that reason. There's now one review from Canada (Toronto Star), one from Australia (Herald Sun), one from Ireland ( RTE), one from Asia (MTV Asia), three from the United States (AllMusic, Blender, Rolling Stone) and three from the United Kingdom (Mojo, NME, Q). I think that is a fair breakdown given where the majority of reviews and music publications are based. Melicans (talk, contributions) 04:19, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Same for the text, very U.S. and UK centric.
Another review aggregation effort with a long history is the Pazz & Jop poll, long run by Robert Christgau. You can find the 2009 results for albums here (No Line finishes 32nd with 26 mentions out of some number of reviewers that I didn't quite see) and the results for singles here (a scattering of U2 mentions).
The article doesn't say how many copies have been sold in the U.S. so far; if you give first week sales, you should give the rest (artists with devoted followings often get big initial sales but then tail off quickly).
I'll do another search, but despite my best efforts previous this is one thing I've never been able to find. It seems near impossible to find sales data released by the companies. We can assume it's at least 1,000,000 since it was certified Platinum, but those figures are as of late last year. The only source I know of is mediatraffic.de, but that is considered unreliable. Melicans (talk, contributions) 12:34, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The most recent statistics I can find are an Associated Press report from October 2009 (one million copies); the only other I've seen is a Billboard article from September (991,000 copies). Melicans (talk, contributions) 13:54, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This statement needs a source: "First-week sales in the United States were over 484,000, the band's second highest figures after How to Dismantle an Atomic Bomb." (And not that Reuters story, see next item.)
The second part of this statement is not correct, despite whatever that sloppy Reuters story says: "It was their seventh number one album in the United States, placing them third behind The Beatles and the Rolling Stones for the most number one albums in the country.[81]" See Billboard 200#Most number-one albums which has U2 in a tie for 8th. I don't know where a good source is for the full ranking, but third cannot be correct; there were plenty of news outlets, including Billboard here, that mentioned Jay-Z getting his 11th and passing Elvis Presley's 10 for most by a solo act.
I'd double check the assertion about #1's ranking on the UK Album Chart as well.
In terms of the album's commercial appeal, the article seems to be overweighing the positive (stressing initial sales and chart placements) and underweighing the negative (overall sales and lack of a hit single). As a result, the last paragraph about low album sales, is jarring to read after all this touting of debut figures. It looks like this part of the article was written as the album was released and not revised. With albums, the race goes to the tortoise not the hare!
I've expanded the paragraph and moved it a bit further up so it flows right after the sales figures and such (also making it a bit more chronological); hopefully this makes it less jaring. Melicans (talk, contributions) 13:30, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Surely more people than just Bono were disappointed by the sales. What about the record company? What did Paul McGuinness say? What did other industry observers say?
In the tour section, I strongly disagree with the use of 'supporting', in both the section title (just call it "360° Tour") and in the text. As the article alludes to briefly, the notion of a tour supporting an album is a vestige of an industry era gone by. Nowadays for established acts it's almost always the reverse: the artist will make a lot more money off the tour than they will off the album. If anything, making an album gives an artist an excuse to stage a big tour. Unless there's a source saying that when the tour visited certain countries there was a significant spike in album sales, this term should go.
In the tour section, you should briefly mention what role the album's songs play in the show. A block of new songs opened the show in Europe, but that was broken up somewhat in the U.S., was it due to audience restlessness? Was the total number of 'new album' songs comparable to previous tours or were they de-emphasized a bit? And maybe mention "Moment of Surrender"'s role as the show finale.
As far as I've seen from building the Tour article the reason for this was never discussed by the band, but I will do another search (can't promise I'll find anything though).Melicans (talk, contributions) 12:24, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Looking more at the Tour section (I'd omit the "U2" in the section title, it's kind of redundant given the context), it should be focused on the tour's relationship to the album, not be a summary of the tour. Thus this sentence is irrelevant here: "The idea for the stage, with some initial design suggestions, had been proposed to the group by the set designer, Willie Williams, at the end of the Vertigo Tour in 2006.[95]" Instead, see if you can incorporate tour show reviews that assessed the role of the No Line songs, good bad or indifferent. Also, bring the section up-to-date: the tour grosses for 2009 are available, and how it ranked for the year. How many HD cameras were used for the Rose Bowl shoot is irrelevant here; instead focus on how many No Line songs are included on the DVD, and what role they played in this show (a somewhat diminished one, as I read the song listing and sequencing). Wasted Time R (talk) 13:04, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Re-reading this idea, I think it is bordering a bit too far on the optimistic scale for the simple reason that so much of it seems to require a great deal of original research. I've been searching since this was posted close to a week ago, but I have found absolutely nothing on why the setlist order was changed, what role the songs play, or comparisons with previous tours. Any major adjustments that I could make along the lines suggested would be so far up the OR lane that it would be unreasonable to make them; the only exceptions are the current tour gross and the number of songs on the DVD. Melicans (talk, contributions) 03:26, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've done my best to integrate the position of the songs during the concerts in both legs (though it required the use of a primary source; see Steve's comments below). I can't see how I can do any more on this front without delving into OR. 2009 gross has also been added. Melicans (talk, contributions) 04:05, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment on referencing: I'm a bit nonplussed by the citations style, which consist in most cases of a deadlink on the title, followed by an archive link to the item in question. I have not encountered this method before. What is the purpose of retaining the deadlink? I notice, incidentally, that the live link in Ref. 1 goes to a subscription service, which should be noted. Brianboulton (talk) 08:56, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Previously the link on the title was removed, leaving only the archive link. However, we were told to reinstate them (can't find where now) because there are times when the archive website has problems/goes down (such as is occuring today as a result of maintenance on the website), and so the links were reinstated. The subscription link is now noted. Melicans (talk, contributions) 16:29, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've never seen this method of linking employed anywhere else; I wonder who told you it had to be done this way? I'm not making an issue of this, but I am curious. Brianboulton (talk) 20:16, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I honestly can't remember where it was, just that it hppened; it was a half-year ago at least, but I can't find it on my talk or in the previous FACs/PRs/GAN. It may have been on another user's talk page, but I can't recall where. Melicans (talk, contributions) 20:21, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support from SteveT • CLeaning support, pending resolution of source questions/issues (below). This is another nicely done album article from the nominator. Any comments, suggestions, prose and content issues I've covered in edit summaries and hidden comments while performing a light copyedit over the last week or so. All that remain from me are sourcing questions.EDIT: All subsequent strikes here were from me at 08:25, 12 May 2010 (UTC), SteveT • C
Image review:
File:NoLineU2Promo.jpg—album cover in infoxbox. Although I'm sympathetic to Fasach Nua's view above—indeed, I respect his/her position a lot—current consensus is that non-free album artwork is suitable for identification of the subject where a free version is unavailable. Wider community consultation is needed to overturn that seeming consensus; as such, individual FACs are not the place to have this discussion.
File:Riad Fez 1.JPG—claimed free CC licence by uploader/photographer; tagged appropriately.
File:U2 Way.jpg—uploaded with free CC licence from Flickr source; checked by Commons review bot and confirmed as tagged appropriately.
The way the {{cite news}} and {{cite journal}} templates render the references means that where the author= field is missing, they display the information in a different order (especially dates) to how they do when the field is filled. Where news and journal articles don't have an author, and where possible, I tend to fill the field with "Staff" to produce a consistent output. This isn't a deal-breaker, by the way, just a suggestion to make it more uniform.
Comment: This is a characteristic of the templates. The whole idea of using them is to just put in the relevant information about a cite and let the template writers worry about formatting them consistently. Even if the writers aren't doing the job well at the moment (to which I agree), inserting filler values like this distorts that process. And some news outlets will run an uncredited wire service report, which means inserting "Staff" is not always correct. Wasted Time R (talk) 10:41, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, which is why I only suggested it might be useful for some of them. Like I say, not a deal breaker. SteveT • C
Named ref "rs032309" (current no. 100) shows archiveurl error, and the original link redirects to Rolling Stone's homepage.
Very strange; for some reason the archiveurl is missing from the template, but it is there in a previous revision from 9 May. I am having no difficulty in opening the page and displaying the content, so I have restored the archive. I believe that the reason it went down (and is continuing to do so on a second check) is because the Web Citation Archive is currently undergoing maintenance. Melicans (talk, contributions) 17:13, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Newspaper and magazine names, e.g. The New York Times and Billboard should be italicised. Some are, some aren't.
To aid verification, it's worth going through the references to link to publications' first instances, instead of their second or third. Some examples: Hot Press, National Post, Mojo. Q. There are others.
Comment: This approach is very hard to maintain on an ongoing basis, since even a slight movement of text will often change what the first instance is. Wasted Time R (talk) 10:41, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
True, but after it's done, and once an article's structure is more stable (usually closer to the end of the FAC), it's very easy to keep on top of it. Post-FAC, the content won't be changing anywhere near enough to make it an annoyance to update. SteveT • C
Current ref no. 24, "The Superleague of Extraordinary Gentlemen, NME, 2009-02-23": what is it? A special edition of the magazine? A separate book?
Current ref no. 27, the film Brothers, isn't very useful for verifying that the song "Winter" appeared on the soundtrack. Is there anything better? If not, at least use the time= parameter to indicate "end credits" or something.
Feel free to tweak to whatever your preferences are, obviously, but for me that rough format gives the reader enough information to work with. We can just live with the italics. SteveT • C
Current ref no. 30, "Long, Drawn Out Confession": the note about the subscription implies this is a video interview; it should probably say outright, and also include the names of the interviewer and interviewees.
As above, I think in the interests of giving the reader enough information, we can live with the italics (indeed, I'm not even sure that would be incorrect in this case). So, you could format it as:
Bono; The Edge; Clayton, Adam; Mullen Jr, Larry (2009-11-27). Long, Drawn Out Confession (Video). U2.com. Archived from the original on 2009-12-05. Retrieved 2009-12-05. Note: Subscription required for access.
Obviously, I can't access it, so I don't know who's in it, so tweak the people= parameter accordingly (and that "Video" in the medium= parameter is just a suggestion too). SteveT • C
Current ref no. 42, "Absolute Radio interview with U2": not sure that should be italicised.
I don't understand why it is. The name uses the title field, which defaults to italics. I thought using |title led to plain text? I changed the template from {{cite episode}} to {{cite news}} and this led to the correction of the italics, but every other detail then being excluded. Any suggestions about which is the right one to use? Melicans (talk, contributions) 18:36, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
For output consistency, perhaps go with {{cite video}} in the same manner as the two suggestions above? SteveT • C
You've got a lot of cites to primary sources to verify information such as when the album was released on particular formats; although these are (generally) accepted, it would preferable to find secondary sources where possible for as many as you can, especially the YouTube link that's used to confirm the band streamed one of their concerts over the service.
I went through in a previous FAC and substituted all of the primary sources I was able to then. I'll do another search now to replace ones that have been added in since that time, such as the YouTube cite. In some cases though, such as the "Long, Drawn out Confession" page, the "U2ube" videos by Clayton, and the development of Linear, this is impossible to avoid since other reliable sources simply don't cover the information mentioned. Melicans (talk, contributions) 03:09, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. Subsequent reviewers might want to look at it, but it's not a deal-breaker for me. SteveT • C
Are we happy with radioandmusic.com as a reliable source?
Since it may prove to be contentious and I can't find any demonstration of reliability, I have removed it. This also unfortunately means that I have had to remove the certifications for Ireland and Italy, since neither IRMA or FIMI provide searchable databases that I can find. As a result I've switched out the Italy field in the charts for Mexico. Melicans (talk, contributions) 16:59, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's fine; I spotted that after I originally left these comments, but felt it prudent not to remove the question, just so we had something on this page. SteveT • C
No comment on the webcite issue already raised by Brian; will await a response.
On second thoughts, it doesn't bother me one jot. SteveT • C
I won’t pretend this is a comprehensive list of source questions/issues; however, successful resolution (or rebuttal!) of these will make further examination easier, and hopefully all that'll I'll spot is the odd typo. Best, SteveT • C10:09, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I switched to support above; all that remains are some minor points still in those hidden comments I left (renewed here). Otherwise, nice work. SteveT • C22:33, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks for all your contributions and for your support; I'll try to address the hidden comments on the morrow if I can find anything for them (as it's close to midnight right now and I need to be up fairly early). Cheers, Melicans (talk, contributions) 04:02, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think that I've addressed all of the hidden questions now. They were definitely limited editions according to the source, so I've removed the word 'considered'. I've done several searches but haven't found any updated sales numbers as of yet that can be included. All that I've seen are forum posts, lists with it as one of the top-selling albums (albeit minus sales figures, even in the original press release by the IFPI), and stats by mediatraffic.de (which as part of the United World Chart is considered unreliable according to KWW, who has done a ton of work on WP:GOODCHARTS in the past). I was a bit confused by your last question regarding the size of the tour's stage; I've tried to clarify the sentence as best I can by explicitly referring to it as a concert stage and providing a reason for the design. Anything else that I could put in (such as the sound systems in each of the four legs, each individual system alone powerful enough for an arena concert, etc.) would probably be overly technical for an article on the album and is easily found on the Tour page. I hope this clarifies all three of your questions. Melicans (talk, contributions) 00:09, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - It may be worth noting some of the common musical motifs (however few) that appear throughout the record. For example, the electronic flourishes that Eno contributed to the record and were much ballyhooed prior to release. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 13:01, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Have to admit I've read over it a few times because of past mentions on certain talk pages, and I think it's finally at a level where it's ready for FA. I applaud the efforts of MelicansMatkin for sticking with it and writing an excellent article. ceranthor19:56, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments – Read the article from beginning to end, and I'm satisfied with most of what I saw, prose-wise. Did find a few minor issues, which I detail below:
Recording and production: "In January 2007, lead singer Bono said U2 intended to take their next album in a different musical direction to their previous few releases." Not saying that the grammar here is wrong, but a more common way of putting it would be "in a different direction from their previous few releases." Which should it be?
""Winter" appears in the accompanying Anton Corbijn film, Linear and the 2009 war film Brothers." Hate to be pedantic on the punctuation, but there should either be another comma after "Linear" or none at all in the sentence. Personally, I don't know if one is needed.
In the Songs of Ascent section, I doubt if the Achtung Baby link is necessary, considering there's already one just a little bit up in the text. Interested readers will have likely already clicked on that one.
Formats: Some hyphens would be useful here in areas with "## page", such as "24 page".
I've added in some hyphens, but someone may want to check to see if I have used the correct format (there seems to be so many different varieties, and I'm always confusing them! ^^;) Melicans (talk, contributions) 03:54, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Reception: Not a big deal at all, but I found it a bit odd that How to Dismantle an Atomic Bomb has a link at the start of the fourth paragraph of this section when it's unlinked toward the end of the third. I would consider moving that one.
Leaning to Support - I have not yet read the whole article, but what I've read is very good. Nice, tight prose and a wealth of information combined to produce an engaging and comprehensive read. Thanks for addressing all my concerns. Some specific comments so far:
In the lead: "Prior to the album's release, U2 said that Eno's and Lanois's involvement, as well as the band's time in Fez, Morocco, resulted in a more experimental record than their previous two albums. Upon its release, No Line on the Horizon received generally favourable reviews, although many critics noted that the album was not as experimental as previously suggested." Can U2's original statement be brought out more clearly? It seems like an incidental remark, so the connection is not immediate when we arrive at what the critics note at the end. The specific term that applied in this case (pre-release publicity, announcement or whatever) rather than "said" would help.
I've reworded it to the following: "Prior to the album's release, U2 announced that Eno's and Lanois's involvement, as well as the band's time in Fez, Morocco, had resulted in a more experimental record than their previous two albums in an attempt to revisit the transition between The Joshua Tree and Achtung Baby. Upon its release..." Is this a bit clearer? It's supported by ref 17, which references this statement in the "Sessions with Eno and Lanois" section. Melicans (talk, contributions) 04:09, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
'At the end of the sessions, the band chose to include "White as Snow" to balance out the earlier, rockier tunes.[25] With the exception of this track, U2 had tried to keep the theme of war out of the album.' - we aren't told that "White as Snow" has a war theme until the later Composition section, so some context is needed here for the second sentence to be meaningful.
I think that's a byproduct from when that sentence in Composition was in Sessions. I've reworded it to "At the end of the sessions, the band chose to include "White as Snow", a song about a dying soldier in Afghanistan, to balance out the earlier, rockier tunes", though I know this now means there is some repetition. Since it is sourced below, I haven't bothered to use the ref again. Do you think the change helps to provide the needed context? Melicans (talk, contributions) 04:18, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"The film originated from a U2 video shoot in June 2007, during which Corbijn asked the band to remain still while he filmed them to create a "photograph on film"; the band did not move but the objects around them did.[37] Impressed, the band believed that the online album listening experience could be enhanced with moving imagery. In May 2008, they commissioned Corbijn to create the film." - I found this confusing; the film originated in June 2007, yet it was not commissioned until May 2008. Would it be accurate to begin instead, "The idea for the film originated ..."?
"In February 2009, Bono stated that by the end of the year U2 would release an album consisting of discarded material from the No Line on the Horizon sessions. Bono labelled it "a more meditative album on the theme of pilgrimage".[9] Provisionally titled Songs of Ascent, it will be a sister release ..." - confusing, because we start the sentence with the impression that this is something that happened over a year ago, yet we segue into "it will be" and so forth.
Hmm, I'm not quite sure what to do with this one, since it's something that is still slated for the future and, I admit, is on the verge of WP:CRYSTAL depending on what alterations are made. Do you have any suggestions? Melicans (talk, contributions) 04:18, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the feedback thus far. I'll be fairly busy with work over the next week or so, so it may take me a bit longer than usual to respond to any further comments or concerns (though I'll do my best to get to them as quickly as possible). Melicans (talk, contributions) 04:40, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for addressing my initial points. I've now read the whole article, and my remaining comments follow.
"'"No Line on the Horizon" stemmed from Mullen's experiments with different drum beats; Eno sampled and manipulated the patterns, and the rest of the band began to play over it.' - "it"?
In Reception, we're initially given the impression of terrific sales: "No Line on the Horizon debuted at number one in 30 countries, including Australia, Belgium, Canada, France, Ireland, Japan, the Netherlands, Portugal, the United Kingdom, and the United States.[82][83] As of June 2009 over five million copies had been sold worldwide.[84] Within one week of release, the album was certified platinum in Brazil, a record for the country.[85] In the United Kingdom, the album became U2's tenth number-one album, making them the fifth-most-successful act on the UK Albums Chart.[86] In the United States, it was U2's seventh number-one album; first-week sales exceeded 484,000, the band's second-highest figures after How to Dismantle an Atomic Bomb." But suddenly the next sentence, which ends the paragraph, surprisingly and blandly states, "By October 2009, sales had increased to just over one million copies, the group's lowest in more than a decade." We then have a large paragraph about disappointing sales, ending with, "McGuinness believed that the conditions of the music market were more responsible for the low sales than any decline in U2's popularity." Can these two paragraphs be balanced out (or perhaps simply introduced by a summary sentence) to give the right overall impression from the start.
I've introduced a summary sentence which reads "No Line on the Horizon opened with strong sales numbers, although these declined very quickly", though this probably needs a bit of polishing. Melicans (talk, contributions) 23:37, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Conflicting tenses: switches from past to present part way through "U2 staged a worldwide stadium tour ... the tour included ... concerts feature ... audience surrounds ... the concert stage is". It's akin to the forthcoming album problem (which has now been addressed above): planned in the past, but ongoing now. The switch surprises the reader with the realization that it's not something in the past being discussed after all. Probably needs recasting one way or the other.
I've switched it all to past tense (I think), since a good chunk of it can be spoken of in that way. The only exceptions are the mentions of which No Line songs are on the Tour DVD; I'm not sure whether to switch to the past tense here too, or if the current present tense is better. Melicans (talk, contributions) 23:40, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Within the Promotion section, you have a lone subsection, Singles. I share the author of that manual's dislike of these, but believe MoS is silent on the matter, so I will leave it with you to decide whether to do anything about it; if so, the choices appear to be (a) make Singles a bolded heading (which would exclude it from the TOC), (b) add an initial subsection heading to Promotion (if there is a meaningful one), or (c) just drop the Singles heading. I suspect you want it to appear in the TOC. As I say, I'll leave it with you to take any or no action on this point.
There isn't a great deal of information under the singles heading anyways so what I have done is removed the heading and renamed the subsection to "Promotion and singles". I considered "Singles and promotion", but given that there is a great deal more info on the promotional aspect than the singles one, I figured Promotion probably has priority. I hope that this addresses all of your concerns! Melicans (talk, contributions) 23:48, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*Note: I've left a note on PL290's talk page informing them that I have addressed their comments as it's been a few days since then, but the user has not edited Wikipedia since 25 May, a few minutes after leaving the above feedback. Melicans (talk, contributions) 02:13, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support My only niggle is whether the lead is an adequate summary of the article - feel free to make it a little longer, perhaps with a sentence or two more on critical reception / charting / commercial outcome. The article looks comprehensive, though, and well-sourced. Haven't heard this album - thought Moment of Surrender was lame - but can't fault the WP article! hamiltonstone (talk) 03:47, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the support and for the suggestion. I've added the sentence "The record was not a commercial success for U2, and the group expressed disappointment at the low sales" after the critical reception part in the lead. If you disliked "Moment of Surrender", why not give "Breathe" or "Fez - Being Born" a shot? =P Melicans (talk, contributions) 13:45, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Done, and done - two edits - one to get the citation back to cite xxx - the other to get three inline cite book to be consistent with the rest. These include the "Priestley Evans, Evan David (1931). Two papers : entitled ..." which I had not done last time.
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! Tweaked. --Legolas (talk2me) 05:21, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
