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May 13

Diesel Engine

Would a diesel engine, such as those on backhoes or wheel loaders, work on the moon or could one be modified to work? Sumsum2010·T·C 05:05, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

The four major differences would be the reduced gravity, lack of oxygen, lack of air pressure, and temperature range:

1) I don't see gravity being much of a problem, and even if it was, an electric pump could be used to deliver fuel more rapidly.

2) The lack of oxygen is a serious problem. You'd need to supply that in oxygen cylinders to get combustion.

3) Lack of air pressure might cause the engine to overheat, as a fan wouldn't work to cool it. Instead, you'd need to provide a heat sink which could radiate the heat away. This might be very large.

4) The temperature on the Moon can get quite cold, so you'd need to heat the engine up electrically before it would start. It can also get quite hot, at least in the sunlight. Perhaps putting it in shade would solve that, say by building a shelter over it.

So, it could work, but I doubt if it would be practical. The thing that makes it most impractical is weight. You'd need to bring the engine, the heat sink, the diesel fuel, the shelter, and the oxygen all from Earth, at extreme cost. Nuclear power can provide energy for far less weight, on an unmanned mission, where radiation isn't a concern. For a manned mission, perhaps solar cells and batteries are best. StuRat (talk) 07:04, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the detailed response! I had been watching a TV show about mining and minerals on other planets, so I wondered if conventional engines could be used to mine these minerals. Sumsum2010·T·C 22:25, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

StuRat's answer is very good, but I want to emphasize that the real issue is a lack of oxygen. Diesels work by burning fossil fuels (or some other appropriate combustible liquid like vegetable oil). This is easy enough to do on earth with the oxygen that is present in the air. In a vacuum this is impossible, you would need to bring your supply of oxygen and other gases with which to mix it (100% O2 wouldn't work at least with current designs) which is far more complicated than an electric motor and a battery (charged by solar or whatever). --Daniel 05:46, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

I thought of another issue. The temperature extremes could damage the engine, while in storage, due to thermal expansion and contraction. Thus, it would need to be stored in a temperature controlled environment, not just left "outside".

Something else to consider is the dust on the Moon. This would be bad, if it got into the engine. However, since you wouldn't be using the atmosphere for combustion as on Earth, but rather would have bottled "air" fed into it, keeping the dust out shouldn't be a problem. StuRat (talk) 06:46, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Assuming you can get the fuel and oxygen, you would still have to do something with the exhaust gases. Astronaut (talk) 10:12, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Why? Just vent it. Not having outside pressure should even somewhat improve efficiency. Of course, if you use an Earthly design, you might need to run it in a pressurised enclosure. Otherwise, the lubricants are bound to evaporate off too quickly. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:03, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

I wouldn't worry about it myself, but I suppose there could be environmentalists concerned about the effect of venting exhaust gases. (It might make the area around the engine get all sooty, if it precipitates back down.) StuRat (talk) 22:40, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

internal voice

is there a god? is there a ghost? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.215.177.130 (talk) 06:45, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

No. HiLo48 (talk) 06:54, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

On the other hand, there might be. HiLo48 (talk) 06:55, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

God(s) and ghost(s) have subjective reality for many people while others are not sure. Some like HiLo48 begin by being sure and then wonder whether they were right. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 10:41, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Obligatory links: God, Ghost. --Colapeninsula (talk) 11:26, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

These are things that are by nature, or at least have to the present, been more or less unverifiable. This is the realm where science has not been very useful, as it has been no more successful at proving their existences than disproving. I tend not to believe in ghosts, but my roommate is convinced that they exist. I think on both counts, especially with "is there a god", you have to decide for yourself. I cannot provide much evidence to support or refute the existence, though I do have a very strong belief surrounding that (I won't say right now whether that belief is for or against the existence). One thing of note, according to the Wikipedia Article Near-death experiences, some scientists find the phenomenon as evidence of an afterlife. Others believe that there are purely biological explanations. Who's right? We do not know yet. Falconus^{p t c} 16:16, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Also note: internal narrator, verbal thinking, self-awareness, conscience, consciousness, soul. 86.164.60.255 (talk) 20:46, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

@Cuddylable3:Please do not resort to personal attacks,chides or comments.Personal attacks violate Wikipedia policy.Thank you. Pseudo 10:48, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

This has no basis, Pseudo. Cuddlyable3's comment was not inappropriate, and most certainly not an attack on anyone. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 18:38, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Agreed... I thought it a very clever response to the question using HiLo48's (intentional?) indecisiveness as an example... gazhiley.co.uk 13:20, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

NATA Exam

PLZ INFORM ME WITH THE SUBJECS REQUIRED FOR THE NATA EXAM AND IS IT POSSIBLE TO TAKE B.ARC BY AIEEE OR IIT ?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.118.182.162 (talk) 08:55, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Click here for information about the National Aptitude Test in Architecture NATA Exam. Please don't write in CAPITAL letters because that is understood as shouting! Cuddlyable3 (talk) 10:39, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

2 question about Northern Canada

1. What is the most northern community in the North-West_Territories Canada? 2. I was looking for a website for Grise_Fiord Nunavut but I couldn't find one. Also can anyone name any notable people from [[Grise_Fiord]? Like as in Politician or something? Thanks! Neptunekh2 (talk) 14:10, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

From List of communities in the Northwest Territories, it would appear to be Sachs Harbour. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 15:39, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Larry Audlaluk was awarded the Order of Canada, Looty Pijamini is an artist from Grise and there are some descendants of Robert J. Flaherty (Nanook of the North) such as Martha Flaherty. Then there is Florin Fodor who isn't from there but has "visited" the place. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 05:31, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Neptunekh2, as it says above, "Please, post your question on only one section of the reference desk." (I have just posted this warning on the Humanities Desk.) BrainyBabe (talk) 10:13, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Peligre Dam

How has the dam on the Artibonite River in Haiti suffered from the earthquake? Could it collapse? 71.194.255.203 (talk) 19:00, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

According to this factsheet issued by the United States Agency for International Development in February this year, ongoing projects include: "rehabilitation of a dam damaged by the earthquake on the Maury River — a tributary of the Artibonite River. USAID/OFDA staff visited the rehabilitated dam and spoke with beneficiaries, who noted that the irrigation system fed by the dam will help 800 people increase their cultivatable area and improve crop output, generating income for local agricultural workers and increasing food availability in the area." So the answer to your question seems to be no, it's not likely to collapse. Alansplodge (talk) 18:52, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Old English Coin

I have a copper coin, about 2 cm in diameter. On one side is a soldier on a horse with the words "To Hanover" above him and "1837" below him. On the reverse side is a portrait of Queen Victoria and the words "Victoria Regina" and, below the portrait, "1852". What is this coin and what is its approximate value ? 76.21.184.228 (talk) 19:11, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

This site suggests it's probably a 'To Hanover' coin[1] - the suggestion in that forum is about $2-10. Searching on eBay suggests it's worth around that much, potentially a little more[2]. ny156uk (talk) 19:30, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

May 14

Car problem

I live in New Zealand and want to buy a secondhand car (2 adults 3 children; must have 3 3-point seatbelts in the back). Problem 1: my wife is less than 5 feet tall and can't drive most cars because she can't simultaneously reach the pedals and see out with good visibility. Problem 2: the missus is currently in the UK and I want to buy the car now; so she cannot take it for a test drive. We happen to know that a Renault Megane Scenic is OK for us, but I would rather buy a Japanese car (my perception being that Japanese imports are cheaper to buy and maintain than European or American cars here in NZ). Can anyone advise? Robinh (talk) 01:30, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Some cars have adjustable foot pedals. I suggest those. Also get a car where you can raise the seat, which likely means a power seat. StuRat (talk) 03:58, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for this, I didn't know that any car had adjustable foot pedals. Presumably the adjustment is possible without taking it to a mechanic? You live and learn! I'll also look out for raisable seats, but the googling isn't giving me much (although now at least I have a googlable phrase, thanks to StuRat!) Best wishes, Robinh (talk) 04:10, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

They both adjust by pressing a button. My vehicle (Chevrolet Avalanche) has both of those features, but I don't think cars in NZ generally do. Still, with some searching you might get lucky. StuRat (talk) 05:02, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm in the same position as your wife, and a Honda Civic is my car of choice these days: the seat adjusts forwards/backwards and up/down, the steering rack also adjusts up/down and forwards/backwards. No adjustment to the pedals was needed for me, but the dealership offered it to me free of charge. She could go to any Honda dealership and have a test drive there. Hope this helps. --TammyMoet (talk) 07:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

What Tammy says makes a lot of sense. Just have her go to a local dealer and ask for a test drive. They may not be that crazy about the fact that your wife won't be buying a car from them but it won't be hard to either A) avoid that detail or B) raise a stink and talk to the manager, after all your wife must have friends who she can tell not to deal with that dealer. And as far as finding a car with adjustable pedals, see this link for a start. Dismas|^(talk) 08:12, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

(OP) Thanks guys, I really appreciate it. Unfortunately, it seems that adjustable pedals are only found, by and large, on new (ie >2010) cars, which are outside my budget. But the information about Honda Civics is good. Do Honda Civics tend to have three three-point seatbelts in the back? (there seem to be dozens of different models) Robinh (talk) 08:24, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

(OP again) and I ought to mention that *I* want to drive it too (6 foot 1), so permanent pedal adjustment isn't a good option for us either )-: Robinh (talk) 08:27, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

The only "permanent pedal adjustment" is on cars that don't allow for adjustment at all. All adjustable pedals I've ever seen can be changed as needed, with the push of a button. StuRat (talk) 08:50, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Ah, to me "you need tools to adjust it" pretty much equals "permanent"....let alone requiring a trip to the garage! Sorry to be slow on the uptake, I've just never encountered adjustable pedals before! thanks again Robinh (talk) 08:56, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

No tools required, just press a button on the dashboard or door to make the pedals rise, and another to lower the pedals back down. It uses a small electric motor. StuRat (talk) 22:36, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

I think the 3 point seat belts is an optional extra on some models. Why not get on the Honda website and build one yourself, see how much it will cost you? You might also find you can actually afford a brand new car (I did!) My husband drives my car too (we only have one car), and there seems to be plenty of room to manoeuvre with the driver's seat. It might be good for us if you explain why you need three point seat belts, there might be another way of approaching things you haven't considered.--TammyMoet (talk) 10:46, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't believe there is all that much difference between cars sold in NZ and those in the UK. One possibility is to have her go to a car salesman in the UK of the same brands as you have in NZ, and look at some of the likely models. It might be a bit cheeky to ask for a test drive when you have no intention of buying from that particular salesman, but it's an option. -- 174.31.219.218 (talk) 18:33, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

(OP) I want 3-point seatbelts because they're safer (at least, that's what my wife says). The lapbelts are legal here in NZ but I think the newer models have mandatory three-point belts in all three seats. I looked at the possibility of post-fitting a three-point belt, with confusing results: the mechanic said that it could be done "if the parcel shelf is solid". But I didn't understand exactly what he meant. Best wishes, Robinh (talk) 00:01, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Most family cars I've come across in the UK have these rear seat belts, at least in the 2 seats by each window: maybe with a lap belt in the centre seat. Of course I may have been looking at the higher end of the family car market (I'm looking for a new car myself but can't find anything to beat my Honda Civic!). I really think your wife needs to do a test drive on a Honda in the UK, and you need to get either on to the Honda website or to a Honda dealership in NZ. Even if you find you can't afford the model of your choice new, there may be something to help you. In the UK, we have pre-registered vehicles, which mean the dealership register the car as first owner and the price drops by about £3k. Or a low-mileage used car may be available. But you won't know until you talk to a dealership. --TammyMoet (talk) 07:32, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

For clarification NZ law requires three point seat belts in the outer seats including rear ones. (Well existing cars without are still allowed but the law has required it for a long time.) It allows a lap seat belt in the centre. See [3] or [4] for the actual law. So I'm pretty sure the OP is only concerned about the centre seat.

BTW, even the NZTA say a three point seatbelt is better and in fact there was an agreement that all new cars should eventually have a 3 point seatbelt for all positions [5] although most cars in NZ are secondhand imports from Japan, Singapore and places like that. In fact a coroner even suggest a lap belt may not be better then no seat belt although that was rejected by the then LTSA [6] (in any case NZ law requires you to wear one if present and as mentioned it should be present on most cars in NZ).

Nil Einne (talk) 16:33, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

CORRECTIONS - HOW TO MAKE

While going through an article on Wikipedia if I find some error of facts and figures; how these can be corrected? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahsan Rafique Butt (talk • contribs) 15:14, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

This is explained at Help:Editing. Looie496 (talk) 17:04, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

construction of a drywall arch in a square cornered opening, i.e., a doorway approx. 6 foot 8 inch by 2 foot 6 inch````

I would like to know how to construct an arch in a square opening using standard building materials i.e. drywall, plywood, 2x's, etc., in an accepted manner in accordance with standard building techniques.Thank you.24.177.246.59 (talk) 16:52, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Have you thought of just googling making a doorway arch ? --Aspro (talk) 17:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Picture of place, trying to find out where it is

Hello.

I don't suppose any of you recognise the surroundings of this picture? I don't have any knowledge of where it could be, except on the Eurasian continent (from the Mediterrenaen,Greece and Russia to China). The photographer is probably not facing westward, since the sun is somewhere to the right, and it's reasonably light outside. That's all I can discern.

Thank you in advance. 80.213.11.105 (talk) 19:24, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Oh! I forgot to state: Those Russian helicopters may very well be photoshopped. 80.213.11.105 (talk) 19:33, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Ah, it's been resolved. It is apparently Lemnos, Greece. 80.213.11.105 (talk) 19:47, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Resolved

wrong information

I was reading about Creston, WA Schools and you have a Principal Listed who has been gone for 4 yrs and this should be updated since our current Principal Mr William Wadlington is an excellent asset to our school! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.118.113.191 (talk) 20:05, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

If Creston High School (Washington) is the article you read, you can raise this issue at the talk page of that article. Just click the Discussion tab of that article. Or, you can edit the article yourself if you have a citation that supports it. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 21:17, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

In fact, you might as well change it even if there is no cite, since the old principal doesn't have a citation anyway. APL (talk) 03:02, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

I've changed it for you and added a reference. The school doesn't have much of a web presence, does it? Please feel free to add any further information from referenced sources. Dbfirs 07:04, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

May 15

Confused about barrel connectors

I'm confused by how barrel connectors are named and listed in parts catalogs.

I'm trying to figure out how I would describe a barrel connector like the one in this out of focus picture. The outer diameter of the barrel is 2.3mm. I have no way of measuring the inner diameter.

Ultimately, I'm looking to buy a right angle plug of this type with as low a profile as possible for a project, but I can't even search because I don't understand how they're listed.

Thanks. APL (talk) 03:29, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Generically they are called DC connectors, and that type is a coaxial power connector and related closely to the jack plug a look at which you might find helpful. Richard Avery (talk) 07:41, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Taxi fare from London Heathrow Airport to near Buckingham Palace

What is the approximate taxi fare from London Heathrow Airport to near Buckingham Palace? Is the Tube a good alternative (for someone traveling with a briefcase and a small piece of luggage)? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.185.166.54 (talk) 13:20, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

A taxi will be expensive; a pre-arranged car will be cheaper (I'll see if I can find a taxi fare). The most common ways to get from Heathrow to London are Heathrow Express to Paddington (which is itself not cheap, but is fast) and the Piccadilly line tube (which is cheaper, but slower). There are also shuttle busses (the kind that drop you and several other people off at addresses in the same part of the city) and regular busses. A lot of it is a cost vs. time tradeoff. For London's excellent public transport system see TFL's journey planner -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 13:40, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

(e/c) Not sure about the taxi fare, but what I would say is that the Tube takes an age on the Piccadilly line from Heathrow to central London. It's probably the cheapest option, but only to be recommended if you're not in a hurry. The Heathrow Express may work out quicker than the taxi if you hit traffic, but it terminates at Paddington so you're looking at another Tube journey from there to the palace. By the way the nearest tube station to Buckingham Palace would be Green Park. This is also on the Piccadilly line so no change is required if you take the tube from the airport. --Viennese Waltz 13:42, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

The journey planner says 45 minutes from Terminal 3 to Green Park (which is rather less than I'd expected); allow for major weirdness on Sundays, when they do maintenance. That crosses 6 zones, so it should be £5 cash or £4.50 with an Oyster Card. A minicab-finder website (which I won't link to, as I just found it by Google) estimates £30 for a pre-arranged minicab. -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 13:58, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Heathrow's website says ~£55 for the taxi fare, and gives options for private hire alternatives. I forgot to answer the last part of your question: the tube (or the Heathrow Express) is a good option, providing the traveller is okay physical condition - an elderly traveller for whom that luggage is a burden will find the tube (which can have stairs and lots of walking around sometimes hot tunnels) a struggle. -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 13:45, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

It varies by traffic conditions - I'd say based on my experiences anywhere from £50 to £70.

I think a good compromise between taxi and train is to take the Heathrow Connect or Heathrow Express and then taking a taxi. Both Heathrow and Paddington stations are quite luggage friendly, and the cab rank is not far to walk. The only significant walk is from the terminal to the station on the Heathrow end (but it's designed with luggage in mind). --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 02:09, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

To compare the fares of the Heathrow Express and Heathrow Connect - the Express is non-stop from Heathrow to Paddington, and a one-way fare will cost between £18 and £23 depending on whether you buy your ticket online (cheapest), at the station booking office, or on the train (most expensive); the Heathrow Connect is about £10 one-way to Paddington - it has a number of intermediate stops, but is not that much slower than the Express. The thing is, these two services are excellent if you want to travel to Paddington, but if you want to go anywhere else in London, like Green Park, and have to transfer to the Underground at Paddington, you may find you've only gained about 15 minutes over if you'd gone by tube the whole way, despite spending an awful lot more money! -- Arwel Parry (talk) 17:09, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

You haven't told us what time of day you're arriving. This is crucial. The tube doesn't run in the early hours. And it'll be very crowded in the morning rush-hour which might put you off (though you should be fine getting a seat). Not sure what time the trains run/don't run, but taxis will charge more at night. --Dweller (talk) 10:18, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

cave in austria

i ´m looking for some informations about a cave in austria called "isnixhalle". I didn´t find any informations by google. thank you for help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.118.118.245 (talk) 16:08, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

German for "cave" is "höhle". "Isnix" isn't a sensible sounding German placename; perhaps the neariest is "eisen", which means iron, or "eis" which means ice. Take a look at list of caves in Austria, which lists several caves that might be the one you're interested in . -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 16:51, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Here is the report of an expedition to Austrian caves that include an "Eishöle". Cuddlyable3 (talk) 17:06, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

"Eishöhle", by itself, simply means ice cave. The German Wikipedia article Eishöhle lists several Eishöhle in Austria. That particular cave is apparently part of the Schwarzmooskogel-Höhlensystem -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 17:18, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Note that this question is duplicated on the Science Refdesk -- please don't ask questions in multiple places. Looie496 (talk) 17:29, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Come on you lot. It took me about 10 seconds to find "Nixhöhle. Here's a Google translation or another page in English. To be fair, Mr Google was kind enough to ask Did you mean: "nixhöhle"? after a few different stabs in the dark ;-) Alansplodge (talk) 21:24, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Someone may have been gaming the name of the cave. "isnix" could also be a deliberately slurred version of "ist nichts", meaning roughly, "is nothing", "doesn't matter", etc. Cheers, W. B. Wilson (talk) 04:25, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Did the Coalition and US invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan do some good for the people?

I know this might be borderline asking for opinions and if so, please feel to remove it; but I am genuinely curious about this question and do not have any other place to ask it.

I have watched a few videos and talks recently that made analogies to describe the reason why Iraqis and Afghani citizens hate US forces in their country. This is one such video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuKBDHWDgBo&feature=share

It makes the analogy that if Chinese troops are in the US killing innocent civilians, US citizens would also be angry. Although I clearly and and fully understand the point that the US presence in the two countries is viewed negatively by their respective countrypeople, did the invasion of US forces at least bring some good to the people?

In Iraq, non-Sunnis were being widely punished by Saddam, who was able to do anything he wanted. At least now, they have a more or less accountable government. Similarly, the Taliban ruled Afghanistan under a sitfling rule, now they also have a more or less functional government. As a citizen under either country, would the overthrow of their respective pre-invasion government be seen as a benefit, despite all the innocent bloodshed that it took to get there? ThanksAcceptable (talk) 17:26, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

If you need opinions, it's better to ask elsewhere. Do not start a debate. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 17:37, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Clearly, there have been benefits from no longer being under the rule of an oppressive regime. There has also been harm due to the hostilities associated with overthrowing that regime and also due to the political instability that has followed. Whether the benefits outweigh the harm is an extremely subjective question and different people in the countries will answer it differently. --Tango (talk) 22:29, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

In Iraq, the Sunnis lost their position as the dominant group, so of course they hate the US. The Shia gained control, but as a group don't seem very thankful about it, particularly the Mahdi Army. The Kurds gained a semi-autonomous region, and do actually seem appreciative. StuRat (talk) 01:44, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Unlike Iraq, I don't think the war in Afghanistan has yet been won. That is, the Taliban might return as soon as the US leaves (I'm pretty sure Saddam won't regain control of Iraq :-) ). So, if they do return, then, from an Afghan perspective, the US will have just killed a lot of people and accomplished nothing. StuRat (talk) 04:37, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

The problem here is that the question assumes that history is one-dimensional. Every major event in history has both positive and negative impacts, and impacts are valued differently by different people from different angles. The US public opinion has been feed with a narrative that the world just awaits the arrival of their GIs with joy, its a myth frequently reproduced by Hollywood (relations between US troops and German civilians was not always as cozy as portrayed in American movies). In the run-up the 2003 Iraq War, the Bush administration touted that US troops would be welcomed as liberators. In reality, there is little rational reason why that would happen. For Iraqis, the Iraq War didn't start in 2003. They had a government supported by US in 1980s during a terrible war with Iran (a war Iraqis themselves had little interest in, but was fought on behalf of US and Arab Gulf states), passed through US bombings in 1991, had a brief uprising in which the US allowed Saddam to crush the rebellion and massacre its participants, US instead prefered de-facto separation of Kurdistan (becoming a pseudo-state under US tutelage), then imposed a genocidal economic blockade against Iraq, the bombed the country again, imposed a puppet regime and fomented sectarian violence as a means to divide-n-rule to avoid Iraqis taking full control of the political process in the country. I think if you assume that Iraqis ought to be grateful to the US, ask yourself how you would feel if your home country passed through what the Iraqi people experienced 1980-2006? The Ron Paul speech definiately makes sense, in this regard. --Soman (talk) 18:39, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

You seem to have only listed (and greatly exaggerated) the negatives. The Shia certainly benefited in gaining control from the Sunnis, for example, as did the Kurds in gaining control over their region. The current Iraqi government is not a puppet government, it was freely elected. The embargo was not "genocidal", although Saddam chose to make it appear that way by withholding meds from children, etc., and blaming it on the embargo, even though those were allowed under the embargo. It's also interesting that you complain that the "US allowed Saddam to crush the rebellion and massacre its participants", when you surely would have complained about any possible action the US could have taken to stop it (those being embargoes, bombing, and invasion). You seem to think that the US can solve any problem instantly and painlessly, but instead chooses to bomb people for sadistic pleasure. StuRat (talk) 20:42, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

You could do the same argument about the Holocaust. If it wasn't for the Holocaust, there would be no Jewish state today. Does that mean that Jews should express gratitude to Hitler? Of course not. My point is exactly that any major historical developments has some positive effects for some in some ways. The Iraqi people has undergone a terrible process of collective suffering over the past decades, and the role of the US has been (as supporter of Saddam during some of the worst repression, for example), to put it bluntly, not altruistically favourable for the Iraqi people. And would Iraqi Shiites cherish American policies towards the Middle East? Those groups that dominate Shiite politics in Iraq today were based in Iran during the war, some with fighting units on the Iranian side (against the US-supported Iraqi invasion). Their knowledge of the legacy of US involvement in the Middle East is more ample and profound than most Americans, and they would probably reluctant to view the US role in Iraq as overwhelmingly positive. --Soman (talk) 21:51, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Your Holocaust analogy might work if the US goal had been to kill all Iraqis, and yet somehow Iraqis gained control of their nation as a result. But, when at least part of the stated US goal was to establish democracy there, and it was established, it certainly isn't just an unintended consequence. StuRat (talk) 22:15, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

A recent commentary on developments in Iraq: http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/04/2011415181326266737.html --Soman (talk) 22:19, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Returning to the original question: "As a citizen under either country, would the overthrow of their respective pre-invasion government be seen as a benefit, despite all the innocent bloodshed that it took to get there?", the question is a bit ambigous. Very few Iraqis miss Saddam, whilst somewhat larger sections of population might miss some aspects of his rule. But probably a large majority would, in a hypotethical scenario, not have voted for him in a free election. Does that mean that those people would think that "the war was worth it"? I think not, my personal gut feeling estimate is that a great majority of ordinary Iraqis does not think that the removal of Saddam makes up for the horror that the Iraq war and occupation has become. That said, the mood is markedly different in Kurdish areas (whose experience on the sanction years is very different from rest of Iraq, for starters), in Kurdistan you would probably find larger percentages of people expressing understanding or sympathy for US military actions.

Afghanistan is a different case. It would be wrong to assume that a majority of Afghans regret removal of Taliban from power. Parts of the Taliban legacy were widely impopular, but at the same time there was a process of moderation (which was interrupted by the US invasion and occupation) which is rarely mentioned today. Moreover, there is somehow an Islamist consensus in Afghan politics, all major players in Afghan politics (both resistance and the co-opted warlords bought over the Americans) adhere to a view that religious practices should be imposed on the inhabitants by the state. I saw a very interesting documentary on a women's prison some time ago, which I think illustrates this problem. Afghan law (post-Taliban) sentences "adulterous women" (i.e. in many cases wives arbitrarily kicked out from their homes by their husbands) to jail. European Union money had gone to renovation a major female prisoners jail (where most prisoners were judged on moral crimes). On one hand, this did improve conditions for inmates, but at the same time it demonstrated the absurdity that Western powers were enabling (economically) the systematic persecution of women. Official narratives has it that the Western invasion was done to secure democracy and women's rights, in reality the allies of the Western powers are rarely more progressive than those engaged in armed resistance against them. --Soman (talk) 03:55, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

But, of course, under the Taliban, women accused of adultery were executed, often in an arena built with Western money (as a soccer stadium). As backwards as Afghanistan is, perhaps the best such women can realistically hope for is a a comfortable prison. Considering the abuse they might face on the outside, this "protective custody" might actually be welcome. StuRat (talk) 06:39, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Rothwell in Northamptonshirre

I know that the old name and that used by many residents of Rothwell is 'Rowell', Please can you tell me if this is pronounced with the 'row' as in rowing boat or row as in argument?? Many thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.130.63.72 (talk) 18:35, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Here's a BBC video report of Rowell Fair. The PC I'm using hasn't got the right software to play it, so you'll have to do it yourself I'm afraid. Alansplodge (talk) 21:08, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Me again; I found a man in a top hat sitting on a horse, who says "Rowell" as in "rowing-boat" in this video. Alansplodge (talk) 21:12, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

A reading about caring for patient that sounds like an old person but turns out to be a baby

Hi There, When I was in nursing school I heard a reading about caring for a patient who was incontinent, difficult etc. that sounded like an old person but at the end turned out to be about caring for a baby. The point was that assuming it was an old person no one would want to care for them but when you realized it was a baby you had a different attitude as a caregiver. I've tried googling this but no luck. Anybody heard of this and have a source? Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.234.6.175 (talk) 18:48, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Ethnicity and math ability

Why are Asians (especially East Asians and Indians) and Eastern Europeans so much better at math than everyone else? --75.40.204.106 (talk) 19:00, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

I think this is mainly a cultural difference. In some cultures, it is expected that children will excel in some subjects, so much more time and effort is expended by parents in making sure that children are at least competent. This contrasts with the (disgraceful) attitude of many parents in England who seem to be proud of the fact that they cannot "do mathematics" and make excuses for their children's laziness. (End of rant!) Dbfirs 19:30, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

It's certainly a cultural difference — there's no evidence whatsoever that the often vast score differences could be correlated with any innate abilities (there may be some small innate differences in this kind of cognitive processing across population groups, but they would not be as large as the score differences). There are very strong culture correlations with performance at education in general, especially amongst immigrants, where educational achievement is the best shot for children to jump into a higher economic class than their parents (and thus are pushed by the parents). Expectations by parents for their children's performance seem to make a huge difference. There has been a big flap in the US now for months about the "Tiger mom" phenomena and whether it screws kids up, but it does seem to result in better test scores (though at potentially high psychological cost). --Mr.98 (talk) 20:35, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Seemingly outrageous but largely true generalisation from a high school teacher follows - in western countries, Asians do homework; western kids don't. HiLo48 (talk) 20:39, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

The same generalisation is probably equally valid when comparing eastern and western countries generally... Discipline just isn't emphasised to anywhere near the same degree in western countries in general (not that that's necessarily a bad thing). --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 02:08, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Mainland China's sub-university education system places tremendous emphasis on math and science, and very little on humanities when compared to the USA. This is an intentional educational strategy by the government. They believe that math and science skills/knowledge/ability are what is needed to drive China's current phase of development. The Masked Booby (talk) 03:06, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I dispute that. Someone who finishes high school in China would have a much better command of, for example, classical Chinese poetry, the history of the Han Dynasty and world geography than the equivalent American student would of old English verse, the history of the Roman Empire, and world geography (to pick the closest correlates). --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 05:43, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Can you provide a reference? I can. To quote:

Particular attention has been paid to improving systems in recent reforms. Many industrial multiversities and specialist colleges have been established, strengthening some incomplete subjects and establishing new specialties, e.g., automation, atomic energy, energy resources, oceanography, nuclear physics, computer science, polymer chemistry, polymer physics, radiochemistry, physical chemistry and biophysics.

and:

The contribution to China's economic construction and social development made by research in the higher education sector is becoming ever more evident. By strengthening cooperation among their production, teaching and research, schools of higher learning are speeding up the process in turning sci-tech research results into products, giving rise to many new and hi-tech enterprises and important innovations. Forty-three national university sci-tech parks have been started or approved, some of which have become important bases for turning research into products.

Nothing on that page about humanities. I pass no judgment on this strategy, but reality is reality. China is balls-out favoring science and math. The Masked Booby (talk) 08:52, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry, where in those paragraphs does it say "and very little on humanities when compared to the USA." (your quote)? Your quotes support the view that China invests in science and technology, but my objection is not to that - it is to your claim that China pays "little attention to humanities compared to the US".

Here's a reference - [7] from the OECD. The US has a sub-standard sub-tertiary education system, and if you want to argue the inferiority of China on sub-tertiary education, whether in humanities or science, I would suggest using a more advantageous reference point like, I don't know, anywhere in the rest of the western world. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 06:02, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

This is an enormously complex question that has components that are social, cultural, and perhaps even biological. For a start, see race and intelligence; model minority; shame society/guilt society; filial piety; and even Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother. You can explore all this more deeply in academic articles and news pieces, of course. Neutrality^talk 09:50, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Couchette cars

Where does one put one's luggage in a couchette car? I am going on one such car from Malmö to Berlin on EuroNightLine 301 in late June and will be travelling with a large backpack, a camera bag and a small shoulder bag containing the important documents. Where should I put those for the night? Are there attendees who patrol the cars during the night? JIP | Talk 20:06, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

When I travelled in a couchette car there was space underneath the bottom couchette for some luggage. Depending on how tall you are, there may be room at your feet for the shoulder bag. There are people that come around to wake you up 10 minutes before your stop, but that's about it. There isn't much to patrol, really. --Tango (talk) 20:46, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

I am mostly concerned about the safety of my luggage. But after reading the replies to my previous question, especially since EN 301 is a direct connection from Malmö to Berlin, I am not so worried. I will probably have to place the backpack under the beds and the camera bag and the shoulder bag at my feet. I have no previous experience of couchette cars, but having read the article couchette car and looked at the pictures, I have a feeling that any real danger of theft will come from fellow sleepers in the couchette car, not from people wandering about the train, and so this will be unlikely. I have previously travelled the same route, and from Kraków to Vienna, in a sleeping car, and have had no problems. But this will be my first time in a couchette car. It appears that Berlin is the ending station of EN 301, so the train staff will probably make sure I wake up when the train reaches Berlin. JIP | Talk 21:00, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Someone entering your cabin would probably wake you up, so I agree that the biggest risk is the other people in your cabin and that risk is minimal. How would they escape with your stuff? They are stuck on the train until it gets to a station and they would probably wake you up as they left even if they were getting off at an earlier stop. --Tango (talk) 21:28, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Trelleborg is shortly after Malmö, so you (and any folks in the same compartment), should be still awake. The ferry takes about 4:00 hours after which time any fellow travelers who have used the ferry´s facilities will return. There are no further stops between Sassnitz and Berlin. There is an attendant for every two carriages (I think). To the best of my recollection you speak fluently both Swedish and German, so any communication with this person should be no problem. Sharing a compartment with strangers generally results in light (and poor) sleep, anyway. If in doubt, talk to the attendant and ask for her / his help. There may be "safe boxes" for hire where you can park your camera equipment and personal documents. Finally, your fellow travellers may have the same concerns, so everybody is slightly on edge.

PS: No bondage and tattoing may be permitted on the train:) --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:50, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Assuming you're not a fussy sleeper, I'd just use your bag with valuables as a pillow. When I travel on night trains I get a top berth and put anything else of value between my head and the wall--would be hard to get to without waking me up. Calliopejen1 (talk) 03:41, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I am a fussy sleeper. I can't explain it, but I have a hard time sleeping pretty much anywhere except my own apartment or my parents' apartment. The more alien a place is to me, the more trouble I have sleeping there. But then all this should, of course, help towards keeping an eye on my luggage. After Berlin, I'm going on a six-and-half hour train trip to Munich, and from there a four-and-half hour trip to Pörtschach, so I will have time to rest even after reaching Berlin. JIP | Talk 19:00, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I vaguely recall that the top bunk has a small storage area at one end. You get to choose whether you're woken continuously by your bag sliding into your head or your feet. --Dweller (talk) 14:47, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

May 16

Weird things about America (to foreigners)

In my travels to Europe and from using Wikipedia, I've found some surprising things about Europe. I'm not talking about political or social differences, which were to be expected, but simple everyday things that we have in America that they don't have, such as toaster ovens, valet parking, mailboxes with flags on them for the mail carrier to pick up outgoing mail and tumble dryers next to every washing machine.

For non-Americans who have visited the country, what are some similar odd things you've found about the U.S.? Again, I'm not talking about the obvious, such as laws on guns or alcohol. I mean the kind of everyday things I mentioned above. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:29, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Telephone lines and shampoo

I understand that telephone lines and electrical lines on poles above ground are quite rare in Europe. They tend to bury them. StuRat (talk) 01:33, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Not rare in the UK. Buried lines are rare where I live. Dbfirs 06:35, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Rare in urban areas in the UK - out in the country overhead lines are the norm. -- Q Chris (talk) 13:25, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, in urban areas only phone lines are commonly overhead, and these are gradually being replaced. Dbfirs 06:38, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

You're thinking of Paris. That's where all the wires are buried. – b_jonas 17:34, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Someone visiting the U.S. for the first time from the Netherlands once told me that he was surprised how large the shampoo bottles here are. Qrsdogg (talk) 01:42, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't remember the shampoo bottles being that different in Europe. But I do know some French people were shocked when they saw one of those double-size boxes of Cheerios. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:59, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Tips

From personal experience (off the top of my head): Some American service staff seem to rely heavily on tips as their wages are so small, in fact - everyone seems to expect to be tipped money for doing things that are in their job description. Christianity seems to be prominent in all areas, to the extent that someone not professing to be Christian is seen in some areas to be strange. Front-loading washing machines don't appear to exist at all except in Laundromats. Users of Mobile phones are charged to receive calls and text messages that originate in the same country instead of receiving them both for free. Mobile phones are tied to a geographic region instead of having their own number band. No-one seems to have a kettle that is used purely to boil water to make hot drinks. Hotels for some reason are so scared of salmonella that they'll make sure that every egg is fried to a rubbery death instead of just vaccinating the chickens in the first place. American shops do some strange 'parking validation' thing to give you free parking as long as you've bought something there (I really don't understand what that's for myself). University/College sports seem to have the same level of interest and accolade as professional sports (where we'd just sign those kids up at 14 to the professional team organisation). Hershey chocolate tastes sour. Oh and soft drinks like Coca-cola don't just taste different due to a different water source but are much much sweeter than at home (possibly our friend HFCS). Nanonic (talk) 02:01, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

(Parking validation is to make sure that the car park is free only for customers, and non-customers have to pay for the privilege.) Which part of Europe doesn't have toasters or valet parking? Quite sure both exist and are relatively common in the UK?

I'm not from Europe but - yes HFCS makes soft drinks taste quite weird! --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 02:02, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

When I was in Europe about 7 years ago, I couldn't find a toaster oven anywhere, and none of my British or Continental friends knew what one was. It may be different now. We just had a valet parking discussion on the RD recently in which it became clear they didn't have it in Europe. I'm sure some Americans who really love tea have teakettles, but of course most Americans prefer coffee. The difference in soft drink taste is not because of HFCS -- they don't use HFCS in Canada, but it tastes pretty much the same, except to Coke aficionados. Coke uses different formulas in different parts of the world. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:17, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Frankly, I'm here in the US, and I have never once handed over my car-keys to a valet. I can't remember the last time I was even in a place where that was done, they're really only common in big cities where you're better off with taxis and light-rail anyway.

Also, I've noticed that in this neighborhood I'm in right now, most people line dry their clothes, I suspect that many of them don't have driers, or they wouldn't bother.

(And Coke claims that, aside from sweeteners Coca-Cola all over the world uses same standard formula they've been using since 1904 when they changed how the coke leaves are processed. ) APL (talk) 03:15, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Nanonic: LOL those are some things even some American's find odd. Call is OR, but I participated in a study that identified me as a Super Taster and Coca Cola seems the same to me whether it be in Germany, France, USA, Bahamas, or elsewhere (restaurant fountain, though cans/bottles, too). As far as coffee goes, yuck! Though I rather enjoy soy, now that I've adapted to it. VulpineLady (talk) 10:03, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

They do indeed use HFCS in Canada. I know because I'm here. As the article on HFCS shows at the beginning, it's labelled "glucose-fructose" on the can, but a rose by any other name... 75.155.136.49 (talk) 21:47, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

We had an interesting thread about HFCS and cola around the world less than a year ago. --Saddhiyama (talk) 21:54, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Bank notes, etc.

The bank notes are all the same size and colour, presumably to make it easier to defraud the blind and foreigners. The few kettles that do exist take ages to boil. Tea is sold in tiny packets, with each bag individually wrapped and with a piece of string stapled to it. Table lamps have weird switches that you have to twist. Other light switches are upside down. There's no safety cover on electricity sockets. You can legally drive through a red light (sometimes). There are hardly any roundabouts, and those that there are have numerous explanatory notices on the approach to them. Five-way junctions often have no markings at all. Gravestones are decorated with little American flags. The price on the shelf or in the advert is not the price you pay. Post office vans are right-hand drive, even though they drive on the right. The fire stations look like they were copied from a Richard Scarry book, as do the fire engines. No national newspapers. Chemists that sell cigarettes. No songbirds to speak of. Butter is the wrong shape. Every little town has its own police force. Some towns are dry. Flags everywhere. Electricity meters on the outside of houses. Private beaches. DuncanHill (talk) 02:22, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

And for some strange reason, US notes have a really distinctive smell to them. No other country seems to have that. Nanonic (talk) 02:29, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Your tea bags have no strings? How do you pull them out of the cup? Also, how do they know how much electricity you're using if there's no meter outside the house? -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:31, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

We have a cunning little implement called a spoon. Most meters nowadays are read remotely, or you can submit a reading online or over the phone, or a man comes around and you let him in to read it. DuncanHill (talk) 02:34, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Weird, on both counts. If they allowed American energy consumers to read their own meters, I'm sure everyone would rip off the electric company. You can find plastic outlet covers at any hardware store here, by the way, and they're common in homes with small children. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:43, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Our sockets have built-in safety covers, that are opened by the longer earth pin. If you submit your own readings sooner or later the electricity board will come and do a proper reading anyway. I don't think spoons are all that weird, we even have an article about the special ones used for the purpose. You need a spoon anyway to stir in the sugar and milk. DuncanHill (talk) 02:46, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

You know, we call them teaspoons too, but I never knew why they were called that. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:50, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Oh god, I hope you're joking! We have soup spoons too, we use them for soup. DuncanHill (talk) 02:52, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Well, I never really thought about it, to be honest. Hardly anyone drinks hot tea around here. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:54, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Don't feel bad, I had no idea either. That is really fascinating. Qrsdogg (talk) 02:57, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

The lack of string on the teabags is facilitate the (otional) use of a teapot. Alansplodge (talk) 08:24, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

But you can't stir it properly in the mug if there's string on it, the string gets tangles round the spoon. That may explain why foreigners always make their tea too weak. DuncanHill (talk) 12:03, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Here in Denmark the electricity meters are placed outside the houses. You can buy teabags with and without strings (but also tea that isn't bagged), also tumble dryers next to the washing maching are quite normal. --Saddhiyama (talk) 08:59, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

US household duplex outlets now standardly have built-in safety too. There's a shutter that blocks insertion into the hot hole unless there's a prong also sticking into the neutral. DMacks (talk) 02:59, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

From an Antipodean perspective: You have stoplights on powerlines, not on poles. Your mass manufactured food is pathetic from food hygene, presentation and quality perspectives. You employ elderly people in menial service industry roles (the Antipodes employs people under 21 through government enforced wage discrimination). Your freeways have an unending dullness, but your older highways are quite interesting. Your television news and newspapers are of a very low quality in general, though with bright highlights. Your run main news broadcasts very late at night. There is no national paper of record, and regional papers of record are formatted in strange and incomprehensible manners. Your buildings are actually insulated against the cold. Squirrels are insane. The only person more patriotic about their regional identity than a Texan is an Keep Austin Weird Texan. Fifelfoo (talk) 02:38, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Marmalade comes in tiny jars and is far too sweet. DuncanHill (talk) 02:42, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I was also going to point out the lack of proper church bells, but everywhere abroad lacks them, not just America. DuncanHill (talk) 03:09, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Regarding Fifelfoo's comment: I can't speak much for the "presentation and quality" of Stouffer's frozen dinner's, but I'm fairly confident in the HAACP food safety standards. The last thing food manufacturers want is to have an outbreak of disease from their products. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 03:45, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree that food manufacturers don't want an outbreak of disease, but they're also caught in a commercial race to the bottom, the bottom being set by statutory standards. Being as provincialist as I am, I trusted my local food safety standards a great deal more than US ones (and I agree this is entirely unreasoned); but, in addition I found the culture of "Packed on / Sell by" to be a radically different thing to my local culture of "Best Before" dates. Fifelfoo (talk) 03:51, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

What do you consider a "proper" church bell? The churches around here (In New England) certainly make a lot of noise on Sunday mornings. APL (talk) 03:47, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Belgium has lots of church bells. Parts of Germany and some other areas of Europe have them too (although Italy seems to have more campaniles than bells). Though I'm not sure what the religious or cultural reason behind their prevalence/absence is. --Colapeninsula (talk) 09:13, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Proper church bells are ones that ring changes, and ring-in for services and funerals, and have a particular quality of sound. And most definitely not ones with little figures that come out and hit them and they play tunes. DuncanHill (talk) 11:27, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Newspapers

I think people here have toasters and ovens (mostly build into the cooking place, but also smaller tabletop-models), but few toaster ovens. I'll second tips (here they are given as a small bonus for good service - 10 percent is generous) and tax added at the cashiers (we have the same taxes nation-wide, and products are labeled with the price you actually pay). Tea bags in Germany also have strings, and many are wrapped individually, though. The amount of power given to local law enforcement in the US is scary, as is their aggressive style. Racial segregation in the US is still very real - menial and unskilled jobs tend to be done by darker-skinned people, skilled and office jobs by lighter people. It's not universal, but pretty noticeable. Public transport is in a sorry state. Everything is either fat-free or sugar-free or super-sized ;-). (Nearly) everybody buys cars on credit, and (nearly) everybody is deeply in debt. You have very little paid vacation (I think 4 weeks is the legal minimum here, but everybody has 6). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 03:15, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

There is a national newspaper, USA Today. The Wall Street Journal is also a national newspaper, with an emphasis on financial matters. The older highways are the Federal Highways, built in the 1930's and 40's, like U.S. Route 66, while the newer ones are the Interstate Highway System, built in the 1950's and later. There was a change in philosophy between the two, from going through the center of each town to bypassing each town. So, the newer ones are faster and safer, but less interesting. StuRat (talk) 03:28, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

There's also The New York Times, which despite its name is really a national paper. The vast majority of Americans, though, if they get a paper, read their local paper. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 03:41, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Compared to The Sydney Morning Herald, The Age, The Australian or the Guardian I found USA Today, WSJ and NYT lacking. USA Today in content and coverage, and WSJ and NYT in modern layout. With regard to the WSJ and NYT, this was obviously a cross cultural issue—I found them archaic. PBS news, and one news out of Chicago which I watched I found to be decent media. (Then again, I'm not impressed with anything but SBS World News at the moment, and the SMH, Age and Australian make me wince). Fifelfoo (talk) 03:44, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

There's a reason why they call USA Today "McPaper" and the NYT "The Old Gray Lady." The former is dumbed down for people who are in a hurry and want their news in little tidbits. The NYT is considered too stately and important to be too experimental with its layout -- it didn't even have color photos on the front page until 1997. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 03:58, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

The F.A.Z. only went so far as to include Pictures on the front page in 2007. Counting the major news outlets I think Germanys can indeed be said to be more numerous and of much higher quality. Welt, Die Zeit, Der Tagesspiegel just to name a few. And all of them have a differing approach/political flavor! --129.206.196.105 (talk) 13:18, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

OK, I can't hold my tongue any longer...

Look at a map, ferGawdssake. The US of A is more or less 3000 miles wide, and covers four times zones. It SHOULD be surprising that there are ANY newspapers available nationwide.

Give me an example of a place, anywhere in Europe, where you can travel even one thousand miles in a straight line, and find someone who speaks your language -- and pre-Euro, used the same money as you! Or, can YOU name one place on the continent where you can buy a newspaper printed in YOUR language that was printed one thousand miles away???

(Maybe I'll look for some circulation numbers -- shouldn't be too hard to find a CITY newspaper that has a greater press run than some of those national newspapers you seem so fond of.)

Thanks, I feel better now. DaHorsesMouth (talk) 23:06, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

For comparison, do other large nations (like Canada, Russia, China and India) have national newspapers ? StuRat (talk) 23:16, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Kettles

I'm not sure if this one was mentioned, but here in USA when we talk about a "tea kettle" or heating water in a "kettle" we mean an actual metal kettle in the shape of a tea-pot that's been placed on a stove. Anything else will be described specifically. ("electric kettle")

This seems to surprise folk from overseas.APL (talk) 03:59, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

That's because we down here, and I suspect our UK cousins and betters, call the electric thing a "jug" or an "electric jug". "Kettle" means one and only one thing - a metal tea-pot shaped thing that sits on top of a stove to get heated and whistles when it's ready. Hence, an "electric kettle" is a contradiction in terms. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 04:15, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I've never heard an electric kettle referred to as a "jug" in Australia, except maybe on the label. It's usually just a "kettle'. Could be a regional difference? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 05:51, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

JackOfOz, I think if you re-read what I wrote you'll find that we're more or less in agreement. Good. That must mean it's the Brits that are the weird ones. APL (talk) 07:22, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Credit cards, tips and money

Americans rarely use debit cards. I gather it's because they think they're less secure than credit cards, which I've never quite been able to wrap my head around. (I live in Canada; I don't know whether Europe uses debit.) Cherry Red Toenails (talk) 05:24, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I only ever use my debit card. Never credit cards except in the case of large purchases, such as car repairs, when I don't have enough money in my checking account at the moment. 216.93.212.245 (talk) 17:57, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I'd think that's because most like the idea of "buy now, pay later", which credit cards promise. StuRat (talk) 05:41, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Some American businesses, particularly hotels, refuse to take debit cards. In the UK, businesses tend to want debit cards rather than credit, because the latter have higher transaction costs for the business; I'm not sure if the charges in the US are different. --Colapeninsula (talk) 09:17, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I think that's a generational thing. Americans who are in their 20s and below all seem to use debit cards rather exclusively. Americans older than that seem to prefer credit. I think this is partially a change in our relationship to debt, and partially a change to how long debit cards have been more or less accepted everywhere (since they can run on credit card networks). --Mr.98 (talk) 11:54, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm in my 20s and I pay for 90% of the things I buy with a debit card, the only time I've ran into a problem was trying to rent a car. Only a few car rental places with take debit cards for some infuriating reason. Qrsdogg (talk) 13:25, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Mr.98 that it's a generational thing, but have to add that under the law, credit cards give US consumers a little more protection from unauthorized use or other fraud than debit cards do. Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:42, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Is it a generational thing because the twentysomethings are less likely to be able to get a credit card in the first place? Certainly it wasn't that until a few years ago; they were throwing them at anything with a pulse. But that may have changed recently.

Really I can't see any good reason, with the laws as they currently are in the States, for anyone who's eligible for a decent credit card (at least, one without an annual fee), and who has the means and discipline to pay off the full balance every month, to use a debit card. As CT says, they really are more risky in cases of unauthorized use. Not by an enormous amount, in the long run, but not completely trivial either, and in the short run it matters who is out the money until it's sorted out. With a credit card, that's the company; with a debit card, it's the consumer. --Trovatore (talk) 05:33, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

As an Australian I have never figured out who to tip in America, and how much. Haven't meant to offend, but I'm sure I must have on several occasions. Wallet ends up full of dollar bills, that were hard to tell apart from all the others. I struggled to cope with the fact that I never could tell from the shelf price what an item was going to really cost me. And while we think we speak English, there were many times that it seemed I needed an interpreter to be understood. I could always understand Americans. (TV imperialism!) Oh, and I got sick of the number of times I was told "Oh, I'd really love to visit Australia, but it's such a long way." I managed to get to America! HiLo48 (talk) 06:04, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Before travelling to the US, I never understood the travel guides' exhortation to not count money in public places - in Europe I never had the urge or need. The trick for getting rid of singles is to sort bills by size occasionally, and preferably pick from the small side. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 08:24, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

From the opposite point of view, I find banking in France to be quite bizarre, so I suspect that means the bank system in the US and Canada is actually unusual to everyone else. (Also, the lack of debit cards in the US was discussed here a few days ago - as a Canadian, I couldn't believe anyone would think debit cards are unsafe! They seem to be ubiquitous in Europe too.) Adam Bishop (talk) 06:59, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Bad food

Oh, also, people have mentioned food tasting bad, but chocolate, specifically, is terrible. Even Canadian chocolate is better than that, and that's still far inferior to European chocolate. Mass-market brands of cookies like Oreo and Chips Ahoy also just taste wrong in the US. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:07, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Nobody in America ever cooks anything from the original raw ingredients. (Im talking about ordinary household kitchens, not high end restaurants.) I suspect there may be entire generations of Americans that have never seen a potato with soil still on it. American chocolate is nasty and the beer is a sick joke! The huge differences in local laws are wierd, something that is ordinary and unremarkable in one town (selling beer) will get you locked up just 20 miles away. American police are really scary! Roger (talk) 07:23, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Ah yes. In America, visible firearms everywhere. Very easy to feel permanently threatened. HiLo48 (talk) 08:10, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't recall having ever seen visible firearms anywhere in the US except on the police. What parts of the US do you visit? I've been in the South, the East, and the Pacific coast. 216.93.212.245 (talk) 17:57, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

As an English person, I would like to say I have never heard anyone call a kettle a jug, or anything other than a kettle, whether that be the really old fashioned ones that go on the oven, the old electric ones, or the new ones that you can put instant coffee cartridges in, if you want a terrible tasting drink at the end. Meanwhile, we do have a tumble dryer, though I don't think it has ever been used, except for the cat to sleep in, that is, after all, what radiators and washing lines are for. 148.197.121.205 (talk) 07:42, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I cook from the natural...and I'm technically Generation X. I prefer to make my salads from fresh heads, though my mother prefers to buy that bagged stuff - bleah! I grew up on US chocolate so I don't have a problem with it, but I adore Nutella and pretty much anything from Germany. You can't really call Oreo's "chocolate" as it's more synthetic than not; Chips Ahoy has gone downhill in the last few years. There is quite a variance in local laws, though a lot of it comes down to common sense; just remember that American Police are much like any wild animal and if you do something to make them feel even slightly threatened you'll likely be handcuffed (or maybe even shot)...keep the hands visible and move slowly LOL.

If you had issues with "dry" territories in USA you may have been in the Midwest as that region has a cluster of dryness owing mostly to Bible Belt influence. I grew up in FL (which is about as Wet as it gets) and when I first moved up to KY my initial reaction was "WTF is a dry county?" I learned real quick what it was ;) As far as the taste of our alcohol, that's largely due to preservatives that will not be found in the European stuff. It'll hit you faster and harder, too, as a result. (did I mention I use one of those ball-on-chain things for my tea? I use leaves, not bags)VulpineLady (talk) 10:38, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

The dry town was in Massachusetts, which is otherwise a comparatively civilised part of America. You could have wine with a meal in one restaurant, but if you wanted a few bottles to have with dinner at home you had to go to another town to buy them. And having more than one bottle of wine between four people over dinner was seen as terribly degenerate. DuncanHill (talk) 11:45, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Misc

The coins smell weird, and make your hand smell weird. That was what really stayed with me. And everything, even McDonalds, had strangely limited opening hours. McDonalds still used styrofoam, which it stopped using maybe 10/15 years ago in the UK. Fairtrade and organic stuff was much more unusual and expensive (in the UK, there's fairtrade coffee and organic milk in McDonalds even). And there were places that seemed like really big supermarkets, except that they didn't sell any non-processed food or any fruit or vegetables in any form o_O You had to go to more expensive, little supermarkets for that, that seemed to be selling themselves as a premium product. Racial issues were very visible (every homeless person I saw in Chicago was black, every person I saw at a college was white). TV was rendered fairly unwatchable by long, intrusive ad-breaks featuring boring adverts with low production values. Soup in a sourdough bread bowl was tasty :) Our motel breakfast choices were: doughnuts, sugary cereal, Sunny Delight; I thought America was supposed to be famous for orange juice? Who eats doughnuts for breakfast? Very strange. All the Sir/Ma'am-ing. Tipping, although I was forewarned and mostly relied on asking people about tips! 86.164.60.255 (talk) 08:02, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

As a Canadian who travels to the US often, I find people there are fairly polite and straightforward. For example, if I asked Americans to name some differences in common products and cultural practices between our countries they'd probably just list a few. Other Westerners would be more likely to tell me all the things that they hate about my country. --JGGardiner (talk) 08:19, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I would add that your bread is too sweet (all tastes like cake), shaving foam cans are short and fat rather than tall and skinny, you have to remember to specify "hot" if you want a cup of tea, four way stops, all your speed limits are something 5 (35, 55, 75) rather than something 0 (30, 50, 70), houses are much bigger, petrol is still much cheaper (though now half price rather than under a fifth like it used to be). Signs in English and Spanish instead of English and Urdu. Also prices are exclusive of tax, in the UK and most of Europe you see the price you will pay. -- Q Chris (talk) 09:21, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, sales tax will get ya'...6% in most areas, though I know Washington, D.C. had a luxury tax of 9%+. I hadn't noticed that about the speed limits, but you're right about bread tasting like cake. Chicago is hardly representative; I recall a study not too long ago that listed Chicago as one of the most segregated cities in America along with Jacksonville (FL) and a few others, but many areas make an effort to be more balanced. The smell of coins is likely the copper degrading. Sir and Ma'am was likely the Midwest influence (Chicago is arguably in that region), though if you want Orange juice you need to move further south or west (like Florida or California, the mainland US sources for oranges) as the Midwest, for some odd reason, thinks Sunny D is OJ.

Signs in Spanish I simply abhor. My mother learned American English for when she Immigrated and was Naturalized and I'm of the camp that believes today's Immigrants should learn it, too. As for tipping, it's customary to leave 10-15% of the overall total (generally tax is already figured, where it applies), though less if service is poor and more if it's better; it is perfectly alright to ask the establishment if they are on "tip wages" and, if so, if "gratuity" will be included in the total (though most places that do include will often print that on the menu or the receipt).

OH! We hate those long, obnoxious commercials, too. VulpineLady (talk) 10:38, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I have no doubt that some of this stuff was area-specific, but it was still surprising. Some of it for not matching the image we get in media, and some just because it was so different from what I was used to. I mean, I'm English, I'm used to class suffusing everything and I know there are racial problems oer here, but such visible racial segregation anywhere in the US in this decade was unexpected, and helped me understand where Americans are coming from when they discuss these issues. In the same way, I'm used to spotting class differences, but the difficulty in buying fresh fruit or vegetable, or even canned fruit and vegetables, other than at an 'up-market' supermarket, surprised me. Having spotted that, it wouldn't surprise me to know that the better-off Americans eat lots of fresh stuff, but that doesn't stop it being surprising that these would be hard to come by for the less-well-off. Everywhere I've been in England, rural and urban, middle-class, working-class and recent immigrant areas, the shops on the corner and the high street, the cheapest and the most expensive, there has always been at least canned fruit and veg, and usually at least some fresh stuff. My parents grew up on an image of America as somewhere that had plenty of cheap, available fresh produce. I now understand what people mean when they talk about it being difficult to get fruit and vegetables in their diet, and food deserts. It was a surprising difference.

There was fun stuff, and stuff I liked too: I'd never had iced coffee before, and thought it would be unpleasant, but it suited a very hot day well. I had iced bubble tea, which was fun and tasty. Mike and Ikes (I now suspect I might mean Good and Plenty) were delicious, as I like licorice comfits and wish there were a similar small branded product over here. The Cheesecake Factory was great, although we made the mistake of ordering a single course from the 'light' menu as well as our cheesecakes, and so had to get little boxes to take our cheesecake home for when we were less full! Don't want to give the impression of just moaning. Different expectations of social behaviour were hilariously uncomfortable, but I'm sure well-discussed and not necessarily on-topic here :) 86.164.78.220 (talk) 13:08, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

You can find bubble tea in most American cities but it isn't very common and I think most Americans don't know what it is. I do remember having to describe it to an American friend who lived in Dallas and googling it we only found a handful of purveyors in DFW, one of the largest metros in America. --JGGardiner (talk) 20:32, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I suspect that not finding fresh fruit and veggies is more than just a class difference. They are available in the US even in poor areas, but only in supermarkets. I suspect you went into a convenience store, like 7-11. They aren't meant for proper grocery shopping, but are supposed to be quicker, when you just need some staple, like milk or bread, and don't have time for the supermarket. If you know the name of the store where you found a lack of fruits and veggies, I'd like to know it. StuRat (talk) 16:41, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I find this claim of lack of fruit/vegetables confusing too. The only store I have been in the approached that description was ALDI and you can't blame that on us. (I live in the Midwest though) Rmhermen (talk) 17:12, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

The local grocery shops around here have very little in the way of fresh fruit or vegies. And even less that I'd care to eat. I'm not talking about 7/11, I'm talking about the actual family owned, neighborhood corner groceries that all the poor people in this neighborhood get all their food from. If you want to walk down-town there's a C-Town, but that's pretty much the same thing only bigger.

You want fruits and veggies, you get in your car (if you have one) and drive to a Stop&Shop, where most prices are noticeably higher, so that's pretty much a middle-class shop. APL (talk) 17:37, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

There is a real problem with food deserts in the US. Although it is hardly unique to America. The term was actually imported from the UK. --JGGardiner (talk) 20:35, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

This must vary by region. I've shopped in slums before, and so long as a go to a supermarket, instead of a small market, they always have fruits and veggies, although I did notice the types of veggies may be different, like collard greens, grits and okra. Also, in my experience, prices are lower at supermarkets, due to economy of scale. As for food deserts, I think lacking a car can make any place a food desert. Even in the suburbs, one rarely lives a comfortable walking distance from a supermarket (they tend to be in strip malls, not residential sections), so must resort to "the corner store", which lacks the variety of a supermarket. StuRat (talk) 05:06, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Re the signs being in English and Spanish, it depends on where you are in the country. We have a few signs up here in Vermont that are in English and French. Our proximity to Quebec being the reason. We have a lot of Canadians coming down to go shopping depending on the exchange rate at the time. Dismas|^(talk) 10:47, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

The speed limits vary by state and even local government. I know of some highways where the speed limit is 70, and locally I have seen 30, 40, and 50 mph speed limits. ^Avic_ennasis @ 09:46, 13 Iyar 5771 / 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Jaywalking and roads

Americans make a really big deal out of jaywalking. And they always give you three times as much food as you want. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:11, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I think what throws most Europeans trying to drive in America is four way stop signs. (I do not know how Americans handle stop signs in Europe but I imagine it being quite difficult a concept to grasp).

If you rent an apartment in America it comes with built-in closets, kitchen kabinets, fridge, washer and tumbler. Thats very convenient for someone who just wants to spend a couple months. In Europe - well in Germany at any rate - you always have to buy these things yourself.

And then there are the differences in behaviour. In America, when a group of - say - five people are talking, they stand a lot farther away from each other than in Germany (and in Italy they get yet closer). You get asked how you are all the time in America but you have to be pretty careful with what your answer is. And if you move to a new place, you will make friends immediately. In Germany in some places it can take years before the locals treat you as one of their own. Well that's not actually weird but rather nice about America. It still is a notable difference to Germany.--Zoppp (talk) 11:27, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

In California, you have to buy your own refrigerator. Sometimes the apartment will have one left behind by the last tenant, but the owners will charge you extra if you want to keep it. 216.93.212.245 (talk) 19:58, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

US citizens have invented and export their weird religions. 1 2 3. There's no documented medieval US history or literature. US road signs are textual while European road signs use standardized graphics. Highway numbers on maps and signs are enclosed in little shield shapes. Yards, feet, inches and sixteenths-of-inches are measurements still in use. You pay a check with a bill, not a bill with a cheque. Grammar and geography don't seem to be taught in schools. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 11:35, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I see Mormon missionaries in France sometimes (just saw some on the tram today actually). I feel kind of bad for them, they couldn't have picked a more apathetic country to preach to. (Well, maybe not "bad", more "amused".) Adam Bishop (talk) 13:23, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Could the reason why there is no documented medieval US history or literature be because Europeans only discovered America in the first place at the end of the Middle Ages? JIP | Talk 18:18, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

The little shield shapes around many US highway numbers are meant to distinguish roads that are part of the federally-funded Interstate Highway System from mere "state highways" or local roads. I do not know why any driver would ever care that a particular road is part of this system, unless one has perhaps just committed a crime, is unfamiliar with the area, hasn't time to ask for directions or look at a map or use a GPS unit, and wants to start driving immediately on a highway that is probably pretty long. By the way, the state highway signs are often even more confusingly bordered; compare this sign. Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:54, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

The different types of highways generally feature different standards of construction. Interstate Highways are limited access divided highways with grade seperation (motorways, if you will), while U.S. highways and State highways are generally equivalent to A-class roads. It makes visual identification of the road you are getting on easier. --Jayron32 04:21, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

That's interesting? Where in USA were you when you noticed a a big deal being made over jay-walking? I'm not doubting you, but I usually jay-walk all the time, right in front of cops and everything, and have never had any trouble about it. Were you in NYC? I don't spend much time there, but I know they've got some unusual attitudes towards traffic. (by necessity, I assume.) APL (talk) 21:04, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Kansas, some years ago - but it may have just been the very law-abiding people I was with.... Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:10, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Group etiquette, etc.

Thinking about it, group etiquette at restaurants is different. In Germany, it's quite usual to for every person (or couple) to pay for his or her (or their) own fare, i.e. to go Dutch. Splitting the bill is somewhat common among close friends. Outside of business meals and explicit invitations, its rare for one person to pick up the bill, and there is little etiquette on who gets to pay and who gets a free ride. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 11:47, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

A German restaurant is where I was told, "I'm sorry, we don't serve food to Americans here." A German with us wanted to argue with the management, but we decided we'd rather eat somewhere that actually wanted our money. 216.93.212.245 (talk) 18:02, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Sorry to hear that. This is certainly extremely unusual (not to mention stupid and possibly illegal). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:11, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

What's interesting to me reading this, as an American who has lived in a few parts of the country, is how many of these observations are regional and class based. I suppose that just underscores how large America is; some of these observations are clearly from one part of the country and not others, or from a lower middle class perspective rather than an upper middle class. "Racial segregation" issues, for example: in some places, that's true, in others, it's not. In all places, menial work is done by people who have less education and resources, and who those people are varies quite a bit (in numerous places around Boston, for example, it's not at all uncommon for those people to be white; in California, they are universally Latino; in DC, they are always Black). Similarly cooking with raw ingredients — in some circles, its terribly popular, in others, it is unheard of, and those "circles" are generally class based (those who are upper middle class, or aspire to be, are often "foodies" — hence all of the brouhaha about the fact that the Obamas eat arugula, which is code for "elitist, because they don't just eat iceberg lettuce slathered with heavy, pre-made dressing like the 'rest of us'"). I suspect that Europeans would find upper middle class (and above) Americans to be much more recognizable than lower middle class and beyond.

I might also note that none of what has been mentioned so far seems to compare to the horror I discovered, as an American, when I used a toilet in Germany for the first time (half awake, just off an overnight flight, heavily jetlagged — in a surreal state of mind). I thought the Germans were supposed to be great engineers? Yeechh. I've never really heard a good explanation for that one. (The "to avoid splashing" one might be plausible, if splashing were a significant problem! What are you guys eating over there?) --Mr.98 (talk) 11:54, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

German toilets are rather bizarre. I understand the idea is to help you examine your motions. DuncanHill (talk) 14:44, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Heh, this thread is fun to read. As an American, permit me to respond to a few things. When and how much to tip can be annoying and confusing for us too. I frequently feel unsure about it. Kettles—they are not only for tea, but also, perhaps even more so, for things like hot chocolate or cider. The lack of electric kettles is, as I understand, due to the use of 110 volt electricity here instead of 220 in the UK and elsewhere. At 110 volts it takes unreasonably long for an electric kettle to boil, from my understanding. On the other hand, kettles you fill with water and put on a stovetop are common. If you find yourself handing keys to a valet you've gone to someplace too ritzy, I've always thought. Yes, the banknotes are uninspired. Gravestones with little American flags—yes, you see that sometimes, but usually the deceased was a war veteran, in my understanding. If you go to the American South you'll see Confederate flags on the veteran graves instead! Debit cards—in my experience they are commonly used. I use them more than credit cards. Which isn't to say Americans don't on the whole tend to be sadly in debt. Chocolate and beer—yes, the mass produced stuff sucks, but there's plenty of very nice "microbrews" and "speciality" chocolate, if you poke around. The laws on alcohol do vary confusingly from state to state, let alone county to county. The Northeast has weird "blue laws", and random chunks of the South are "dry". The west coast is fairly lax. In the Seattle area there's a weird vestige blue law that forbids markets to sell wine or beer between Sunday midnight and Monday 2 AM. TV...people still watch TV? Highway route numbers in their weird shield shapes still confuse me, especially in places like Tennessee, where a single road can have three or four different numbers in differently shaped shields. Pfly (talk) 12:13, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

You put cider in a kettle? Whatever for? DuncanHill (talk) 12:16, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Heh, I realized while rereading that that sounded odd. Usually I would just use a pot on the stove, so nevermind that comment! Pfly (talk) 12:19, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

To me putting cider in a pot on the stove is just as odd. Are you trying to make some sort of [Mulled wine|mulled]] drink? -- Q Chris (talk) 12:23, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, cider in a pot on the stove seems utterly bizarre, and believe me, I know about cider. One of my five-a-day :) DuncanHill (talk) 12:25, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

It seems that Apple cider is 'mulled' as a winter drink, incindentally this is non-alcoholic! Nanonic (talk) 12:43, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

We would call that apple juice, not cider. And hot apple juice seems just as weird as hot cider. DuncanHill (talk) 12:56, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Sort of, but in the UK we have hot lemon or hot blackcurrant so why not hot apple juice? -- Q Chris (talk) 13:06, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Oh, heh, yes, I meant the non-alcoholic kind, mulled, like at Apple cider#Variations. I see now that at least on WP cider by itself means the alcoholic kind. And whether to call it juice or cider is I suppose just something I grew up with. Apple juice was filtered and pasteurized, and sold in grocery stores. Cider was made every autumn at the old mill down the street, was opaque and non-pasteurized. It may well be that the distinction I learned as a kid was unusual even in the US. Pfly (talk) 16:52, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

We Australians are pretty exposed to American language from TV, but a word that puzzled me when I first hopped off a plane in Houston in the middle of the night and hired, sorry, rented a car, was beltway. Once someone explained, and I thought about it a bit, it made sense, but it's a very different name for a ring road. HiLo48 (talk) 12:26, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

The news in America is from the conservative perspective, and often melodramatic. Example. Albacore (talk) 12:39, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I am an American who has spent considerable time abroad— Germany, Switzerland, Austria, UK, Denmark, Saudi Arabia. My first bit of culture shock was in a restroom in Germany when a little old lady came in with a mop bucket— none of the other guys in there made any remarks, so I just went with it. I have an electric kettle— it isn't the voltage, it is the power. Mine is 120V / 1500W and seems to heat just fine. I have a thermal mug full of Earl Grey right here, and yes the string is a pain when stirring. Germany seemed to have small markets everywhere with large produce sections, where the US has a trend towards mega-markets with a lot of prepared produce— bags of salad mix, sliced vegetables, shrink wrapped potatoes and the like. Twenty years ago, the markets in Germany were using produce self-weigh, where the US has it in only one supermarket I know of. Flag markers on graves are usually seen only on certain US holidays. In Germany you can buy beer on a bus, but in the US you can't buy Jack Daniel's in the county where it is made. The US implemented mobile/cell phone service first, so we are stuck with a lot of legacy where other countries started with second or third generation. My electric service is with a co-op— I originally phoned in the reading every month, then went to internet and now it is automatic (the new meter also lets them know when and where there is an outage). The German polezi were carrying machine guns in the Frankfurt airport 20 years ago, and I have yet to see an American police officer with one. I know of three roundabouts here in Virginia, but they are small compare to the US and Germany. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 14:04, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Police without machine guns

At US airports, you can often see guards with machine guns. It's not uncommon since after 9/11. It always has struck me as a little overkill, to say the least — it's unclear to me exactly what kind of terrorist airport threat an M16 is going to help you with. --Mr.98 (talk) 14:26, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Haven't been to a U.S. airport recently but the only place I have seen police patrols with assault rifles were outside a Vienna hotel during a Turkish diplomat visit (you rarely see American police with assault rifles except during SWAT team actions) and at the Munich airport where they were patrolling in teams of two - one with an assault rifle, one with a sniper rifle. In America, we use pistols and shotguns indoors. In Vienna, armored cars at banks were protected by assault rifle-carrying men. I don't remember if I personally have ever seen an assault rifle carried in public in the U.S. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 16:01, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

The only place I've ever seen machine guns in an airport was in Rome. 216.93.212.245 (talk) 18:05, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Machine guns are likely part of security theater, but this seems unwise, to me, as they fire large numbers of bullets inaccurately (at least when in fully automatic mode). That's the wrong tool for the job, a bit like using an 18-wheeler to take the kids to school. Also, some consideration should be given to the concern that the cop(s) may actually BE the terrorist(s), either the real cop(s) or somebody pretending to be one. StuRat (talk) 16:28, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I think, being from the UK, is that we're the odd ones in this regard. Only once have I ever seen British police with any sort of firearm, and that was on the Millennium Bridge (London) not long after the July bombings. When I've been in Europe, I've seen them at airports and other places. Do they think it'll turn out half the airport is a terrorist? (Maybe for the scare factor - it certainly scared me?) Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 21:06, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

120/1500 is what we mean by slow kettles. My Bosch is 240/3100 and would thus boil in just under half the time. US split-phase voltage system is so low that you would need thicker mains wiring to take the extra amperage if you were to have kettle that boiled before the commercials were over (hay, so that's why they go on for so long). Also, it is plugged into a double socket ring main and so I can boil two kettles at once without burning out the cabling and setting alight to the house.--Aspro (talk) 17:05, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

U.S. electric stoves are often 240V or we use gas stove for our kettles but mine mainly sees use to prevent someone sticking their hand on a still-hot burner and to add some humidity. Why would I ever need two of them? 75.41.110.200 (talk) 17:29, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

The German polezi were carrying machine guns in the Frankfurt airport 20 years ago. It's spelled "Polizei". I understand that someone who doesn't speak German could easily misspell that word, so I just thought to point out the correct spelling. "Polezi" sounds like some very weird Slavic spelling. I don't know if it's actually used anywhere, I'm hopeless at Slavic languages. JIP | Talk 19:07, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I could never understand why millions of Americans commonly drive on a parkway and park on a driveway.190.56.105.174 (talk) 16:21, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Lack of cheese variety

Nobody's mentioned the gigantic mutant fruit and vegetables in US supermarkets. I had never seen apples the size of grapefruits and grapefruits the size of melons before. Another odd quirk was the lack of much choice of cheese - the supermarkets I've visited only seem to sell "American cheese" or "Swiss cheese" (which seemed to be same as the American cheese but with holes). I asked the guy behind the counter if the Swiss cheese was made in America, but he didn't seem to get the joke. As others have already mentioned, the sales-tax not included has caught me out so many times. Astronaut (talk) 18:05, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

As for cheeses, I suspect you were looking in the wrong place. They can be in several places in US supermarkets. The common cheeses are typically in the cheese section, and include pre-sliced American "cheese food product", and usually Swiss cheese, Cheddar cheese, Mozzarella, Colby cheese, Muenster (cheese), Monterey Jack, Pepper Jack, and perhaps a few others, in a refrigerated section. In addition, 8-16 ounce resealable bags of shredded cheeses (some blends) and blocks of cheese are also in this section. Cheeses in tubs, like cottage cheese, feta, Win Schuler's Cheddar Cheese Spread, and Velveeta, are likely to be in the dairy section next to yogurt, milk, butter, margarine and sour cream. Grated, dried romano cheese and parmesan cheese are likely to be in a cylinder from which you sprinkle it, near the pasta (and boxes of macaroni and cheese are there with either powdered or liquid cheese included). There may also be jars of cheese sauce next to the jars of spaghetti sauce. Spray cheeses, like Cheese Whiz, and plastic squeeze bottles of cheese, might be next to the crackers. Specialty and imported cheeses (like bleu cheese) are likely to be behind, or near, the deli counter or in a special refrigerated international section (expect them to cost far more). Those deli forms might be more familiar to Europeans, including wedges and rounds. You might also find a variety of cheeses in a "deli cheese tray", in the deli or produce sections, possibly with meat or fruit. And, of course, many foods in American stores are pre-made, with the cheese already in/on them, like frozen pizzas.

Perhaps you shopped at an inner city store or small market (both of which have less variety). I shop at suburban supermarkets. StuRat (talk) 19:17, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Teeth

Does it look weird to Europeans when they see Americans with teeth that are exemplars of straightening and cleaning or even bleaching? Edison (talk) 19:13, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

? --Saddhiyama (talk) 19:18, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

What Edison is getting at is that to Americans, the rest of the world generally has awful teeth. We put a lot of stock in good teeth in the US and regularly spends thousands to make them look "perfect." --Mr.98 (talk) 19:29, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Straightening and cleaning of teeth is actually quite common in Europe, I think several European countries are ahead of US when it comes to dental health. But bleaching habits are certainly different, it is way more common in the US. The way many American celebrities (with unnaturally shining teeth) look has a bit of a plastic tinge to it. --Soman (talk) 19:30, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Thousands of newspaper and magazine articles injust the past 5 years have dealt with lack of dental care in Britain, for instance. Water there is rarely fluoridated, while fluoridation is common in the US, with fewer cavities as a result. Edison (talk) 20:23, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I expect that some of that is the political lobby to convince people that universal health care is bad. To put it into perspective my wife is American and when she first came to the UK she had a lot of dental work done that she could not afford in the USA. She was also impressed that our daughter had braces for free on the NHS, which would have cost a lot in the USA. -- Q Chris (talk) 05:52, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

American teeth may be very white and even, but they lack charm. I can remember as a small child being scared by the Osmonds' excessive dentition. DuncanHill (talk) 20:28, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

"My, Donny Osmond, what large, white teeth you have." ... "The better to convert you to Mormonism with, my dear." StuRat (talk) 21:09, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps there are thousands of newspaper articles covering the bad teeth of the British, but they may very well just be perpetuating a false myth. That and the exceptionally good tooth hygiene of the Americans. --Saddhiyama (talk) 21:28, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

It is bizarre (to an American) that US TV commercials for dental clinics refer to "improving your smile" when they mean "having veneers glued to your teeth or having them bleached until they glow with a radioactive bluish white sheen." Edison (talk) 02:30, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Sales tax and laundry

Some personal observation (some already mentioned above): 1) Sizes of food portions, especially at fast food places. The 'regular' or 'medium' sizes in US fast food would be in the 'abnormally big' category in Europe. 2) tax not included (why? it's just so weird that it isn't calculated into the price?) 3) Tipping, everywhere 4) Door-knobs (rather than straight handles- why!? they are so unpractical and unhygenic. What if you are handicapped or have your hand covered in butter?) 5) The odd loud male in places were lots of people congregate (it seems that approx 5% of male employees in airport, restaurant, etc. adopt the role as being irrationally loud and supposedly comic, unclear how that role is established) 6) Laundromats. 7) ATMs inside shops, that take fees for withdrawals (although that has become more common in other countries as well in recent years, but when I was in US 2002 I had not seen that elsewhere before) --Soman (talk) 19:45, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

We had the discussion about sales tax on the RD before. Sales tax in the U.S. can differ from state to state or even county to county. It would be impossible to advertise any prices if you included the sales tax. Subway's "Five Dollar Footlong" might be $5.25 in one city, $5.35 in another and $5.45 in a third. As for laundromats, I was quite surprised at their paucity on the Continent. Most apartments in the U.S. don't have washing machines -- Mwalcoff (talk) 22:27, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

About the lack of laundromats in Europe: Where do poor people (who presumably lack their own washers and dryers) do their laundry ? StuRat (talk) 23:43, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

In the UK at least there are a lot of launderettes in poor areas, student areas, etc. but in a well-off suburban commuter town you might have to travel miles to find one. -- Q Chris (talk) 05:52, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I think this is mostly a difference of individual perspective. According to the relevant article, Self-service laundry, there are only 10 times as many in the US as the UK or about double per capita. --JGGardiner (talk) 07:37, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

All I ask is that the price shown on the item itself or on the shelf is what I actually have to pay at the cash register. It works in the rest of the world. HiLo48 (talk) 22:55, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Not in Canada. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:28, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for expanding my knowledge, and yes, I know how rude it is to include Canada with the USA, so, sorry. But can anyone explain the logic of keeping the real price a secret from the customer? I really don't get it. HiLo48 (talk) 02:38, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

The price plus tax isn't actually the price. The price is what you pay to the person selling the item. The tax is what you pay to the government.

But sure, it would be convenient to see the full amount that you have to fork over. But what is the retailer's incentive to post that price? If he does, and everyone else doesn't, then his prices look higher even if they're actually the same. If everyone else didn't and he did, they'd look lower (although I suppose in that case people would get annoyed with him quickly, so maybe he'd stop; that makes this a chicken-and-egg kind of thing). --Trovatore (talk) 02:48, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I often wonder when Americans give replies like that whether they consider the other point made that it works everywhere else in the world (except Canada, of course). I would always choose a retailer that told me the real cost to me of an item. HiLo48 (talk) 02:57, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

If most people felt that way, then the retailers would do it that way. Obviously it doesn't bother enough people here, or anyway doesn't bother them enough. By the way, please get the bloody chip off your shoulder about Americans. It gets pretty old. --Trovatore (talk) 05:24, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I only have trouble with those Americans who cannot accept that what happens elsewhere in the world could have any relevance at all to them. I certainly don't want a fight here, but your failure to ever engage on that part of any discussion is particularly sad. HiLo48 (talk) 05:36, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I find it extremely irritating that you seem to think that's specific to Americans. To take the language issue, you harp constantly on people who change Commonwealth spellings to American, but don't seem to acknowledge that the reverse is a comparable problem. --Trovatore (talk) 06:10, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I truly don't think it is. I'm happy to correct inappropriate spelling in either direction, but I rarely see examples of American spelling incorrectly changed to UK spelling or similar. If you have evidence to the contrary, I'd like to see it. HiLo48 (talk) 08:11, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Basically this is an unfortunate and irritating artifact of the different tax rates in different states. Retailers in Massachusetts, for example, are loath to post their full after-tax prices, because retailers in bordering New Hampshire don't charge any tax at all. Posting their after-tax prices would just call attention to their disadvantage.

Similarly, any law requiring the posting of total prices would be a state level law. So, even though it would be better for consumers, no state would pass a law that would place it's own retailers at a disadvantage, however slight.

Keeping our state governments semi-independent like that does have a bunch of minor annoyances like that (The slight differences in traffic laws from state to state is another good example), but I think most of us would agree that we'd rather deal with those minor annoyances compared to whatever problems a single monolithic government would produce. APL (talk) 19:21, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Every store would have to produce its own price signs and mail out its own sales papers. I can't imagine how television or radio advertising would be handled when each store in each town had to have its own prices listed. For example, in one television area around Chicago you would have prices for Northern Indiana with 7% tax added (unless it is grocery item wheore 0% is the rate), Will County where 6.25% would be added and Cook County were 10.25% would be added or Chicago where 11.5% was the rate (unless it was a beverage purchased in the downtown area where you add another percent.) Any large number of other counties and towns around Chicago with different rates would also be reached by one station. The list of prices would quickly cut in the time of your 30-second commercial. Rmhermen (talk) 03:00, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Furthermore, in Ohio, you're charged sales tax when you get a restaurant meal "for here" but not when you get it "to go." So not only would McDonald's have to list separate prices for every county in their advertisements, they'd have to list two prices on the menus. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 03:51, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

This situation is the same in Germany - take-out is taxed as "food" at 7%, eat in is taxed as "service" at 19%. McDonald's still has only one price list - they just have higher pre-tax prices for take-out so that they arrive at the same price after taxes (because, of course, having higher prices for eating in would cause price conscious customers to a) form a messy group just outside the store and b) result in a less pleasant experience for them, making it less likely that they return). This is pretty universal for fast-food places. Many proper restaurants, on the other hand, give you a (usually unadvertised) rebate on take-out. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:24, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

All that just highlights how very confusing it all is. I didn't realise it was that complicated. So, there's another difference! HiLo48 (talk) 05:36, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't object to not including sales tax at retail stores, since it's always the same rate (within a state), and thus easy to calculate, and usually low (6% here). What I do object to, is when companies advertise utilities like phone service, then, when you get the bill, it's more than twice the price you were quoted, because there are a larger numbers of taxes, assessments, and fees added in. StuRat (talk) 17:47, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

This one question has resulted in amazingly many replies. The last time the Miscellaneous Reference Desk was anywhere near the length it is now was ten days ago. JIP | Talk 19:55, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

The Miscellaneous Reference Desk is, as I last checked, at 128,802 bytes. This is the biggest it has been in almost three months. On February 20, it was at over 150,000 bytes. Here's a link to how it looked back then: [8]. 88.114.95.29 (talk) 18:53, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

One thing I frequently hear from visitors to the US is that they are surprised by the size of the the country. Obviously they intellectually know how big it is, but it is another thing to drive across the country over the course of a week. It is also sparsely populated in some places (relative to Europe) which can be a bit shocking. I live in a state (Arizona) which is bigger than many European countries but really only has two cities (one really as they are practically a single metropolitan area). Outside of this area it is mostly desert with a some scattered settlements and a handful of small towns. --Daniel 23:13, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

May be I should stop making fun of the infamous former president who seemed surprised to learn that Brazil, Russia and China are big countries. Nil Einne (talk) 00:18, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Break in the America discussion

Ha ha! This thread is great! My favorite was the one about having to specify that you want your cup of tea hot. As a born and bred U.S. Southerner, I can relate to that. Most of the time, the options for tea here are sweet, sweeter or sweet with lemon (only in the fancy places). Also good to know n the South is that when the waitress refers to "sugar", she is referring to you, not what you want in your drink. Agree strongly with one of the posters above, that, as would be expected, a large majority of these examples are regional and class based...as well as there being a rather large difference between customs in urban, rural and suburban areas. Quinn ^{✩ STARRY NIGHT} 03:14, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Speed limits

A few comments: Speedlimits in Europe are in km/h so a difference of 10 km/h = about 6 mph. US speedlimits are 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35 etc. -- any multiple of 5 is found (though I found one speedlimit sign for 13 mph locally!). Coke and other soft drinks when Kosher for Passover are made with sugar, and not HFCS which is not Kosher. Hershey dominated the US chocolate market - and he had a different system for making milk chocolate which he developed himself after previously being a caramel maker. The result is a slightly sour overtone to the chocolate which Americans are used to. Health stuff is also found in Europe and around the world now, but I smile when I see bread labelled as "contains milk products", peanut brittle listed as "containing peanuts" and the like as warnings. It is done to prevent some really odd lawsuits, and in conformance with what various health departments requires. The EU has requirements as to what can be called "chocolate" causinf a furor in the UK as a favourite chocolate bar was no longer legally chocolate, IIRC. Honouring war dead and veterans with small flags is not uniquely American either. America is a melting pot of the customs and practices of many nations, from the Scots Hallowe'en on. And, fwiw, "ring changes" are dying out even in the UK. A number of US churches have proper carillons which can be played on a keyboard like an organ stop. Again - it is the fact that almost anything you want from another country can be readily bought in large cities - English "digestive biscuits", Italian pasta, Turkish figs, you-name-it. Collect (talk) 11:18, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Speed limits in the UK are in mph too, and yet as far as I'm aware we only have multiples of 10 - 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 and 70 (on public roads, anyway - some private residential streets are 10 or 15). Proteus (Talk) 11:36, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

The last time I went to the Republic of Ireland, the speed limits were EITHER in Km/H or MPH - you had to guess which! Alansplodge (talk) 12:49, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I was in a private drive yesterday with a posted 3 mile per hour limit - I am not sure that is physically possible (or how you would know if you were breaking it). Rmhermen (talk) 17:17, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

One problem with low speed limits in the US is that most of us have automatic transmissions. Such a car, when in gear, wants to travel at some slow speed, maybe up to 25 MPH, all on it's own. So, when they set the limit below that, this means we have to ride the brake, which both wastes fuel and wears out the brakes. StuRat (talk) 21:18, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Waste

I'm surprised no one's mentioned the largest difference I spot whenever I'm over in the US, which is that of waste. I mean, I'm no eco-freak, but I've seen people put on a dishwasher load for one mug and one bowl, both of which just need a good rinse & wipe really (cereal and tea). Bulk buying was regular, but I doubt the majority was used, for example buying milk by the gallon? A family of 4 over here often don't use that in a week. Bottled water in the fridge, when there's nothing wrong with the tap. All you can eat buffets with no "try not to take stupid amounts" - eg Cici's pizza, I saw so many people go up, pile up their plate, take 3 bites per slice and leave the rest. Otherwise, the fresh food looks perfect but tastes of nothing (apples in particular), the variety of a single brand (Oreos come in something like 30 options according to our article, each with 3 or 4 different pack sizes). Cities like New York have no local boilers, hot water is pumped from the mains. There are no vegetables served with meals, the vast majority serve salad but that's it (except in nicer restaurants). Free bread at every restaurant, unlimited soft drinks. Plus all the stuff mentioned above ;) Worm^TT · (talk) 12:47, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Gallons of milk is not wasteful. My family of 5 will easily go through 5 gallons a week, more if we are baking at home. But milk also comes in half gallon, quart and half pint almost everywhere. No one has to overbuy. What does "Cities like New York have no local boilers, hot water is pumped from the mains." mean? Maybe some real difference because I can't even figure out the sentence. "no vegetables served with meals" - disagree with this, cooked vegetables are usually served with meals, what they are varies by region. You don't usually get collard greens and okra at a New England KFC. Rmhermen (talk) 16:57, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

What he meant was that all homes in the draw only cold water from the mains, and so every household has some sort of boiler to produce hot water. His suggestion, which I can't verify, is that US households in some places draw hot water from pipes outside and thus don't need boilers. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 17:08, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

There are some few places that have distributed hot water for heating (but they include Iceland and Siberia). I have never heard of it for domestic drinking water. We usually refer to "water heaters" for producing hot drinking water and "boilers" for heating water for space heating. Is that part of the difference? Rmhermen (talk) 17:15, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I was referring to water for heating, sorry should have been clearer, see more below. Worm^TT · (talk) 17:25, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Hey, all I can tell you is my experience. I see selling milk by the gallon as wasteful, and I think you'd be hard pressed to find it sold in that measure over here in UK. (I do keep forgetting you've got a smaller gallon than us, but 30 pints in a week seems like a heck of a lot to me!) As for the boilers, I was watching a program about the NYC water supply and was fascinated that there is a plant which heats water for a large portion of Manhatten. Griff Rhys Jones explains here 1:50min onwards, very impressive. But the idea that there's a central boiler is amazing to me.

And as for the no vegetables, well, that's me being grumpy. I stayed in California for 2 weeks, and went to loads of restaurants, and didn't see anything I'd consider proper vegetables, whilst there were many beans, salads, potatoes, mushrooms, sweetcorn and tomatoes, but I only found one restaurant which actually had vegetables like the ones you'd find in the vast majority in UK. Worm^TT · (talk) 17:23, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

So your complaint is that they are different vegetables than you are used to ? More upscale restaurants would offer more options. As for a US gallon, that's only 8 pints, not 30. Central boilers are sometimes used in cities for industrial heating, but rarely for home heating. Leaky steam pipes pouring steam out of manholes can give a city a spooky look, especially at night. StuRat (talk) 17:30, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

US gallon is 6 UK pints (in my head... actually 6.6ish), UK is 8 - and Rmhermen said he got through 5 gallons a week (6 * 5... :D) I know I know, they're both 8 of their respective pints... Like I say, I'm being grumpy, but yes, the difference I saw was that there is a distinct lack of green vegetables, with a focus on sweeter ones. And you are right, it was an upscale restaurant I found the veg in. I guess, I'm just surprised how cheap meat is over there, to the extent that it is a much larger focal point of the meal. Worm^TT · (talk) 17:38, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

OK, you were saying that 5 gallons a week is a lot of milk for a family. I agree. However, I disagree with your original post that said that a family wasn't likely to be able to use up a single gallon before it spoiled. Perhaps Americans use it in more things. We commonly use it in cereal bowls, as a glass of milk alone (or mixed with chocolate), in coffee, and in baking, making pancakes, etc. StuRat (talk) 18:37, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Yep, there are many good reasons why a family could get through a gallon of milk in a week, not least that what I think of as a gallon isn't what you do. I'm just pointing out something I found strange when I was last over there, the bulk you can buy things in and the ease with which the Americans I observed ignored waste. Worm^TT · (talk) 20:38, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

If you drinka pinta milka day British people of a certain age will get the reference) then four of you will drink 4x7=28 pints a week, or 3 gallons and 4 pints. I drink about a pint-and-a-half a day. DuncanHill (talk) 22:12, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I knew Brits who drank several pints a day, but I don't think it was milk. StuRat (talk) 22:19, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

In America bottled water was seen as a European product 20 years ago. Everybody heard the joke that Evian, then practically a genericized trademark, was naive spelled backwards. Looking at the numbers from the International Bottled Water Association it seems that Americans drink only half the bottled water of Italians and were only 10th in per capita consumption behind Germany, France and Spain among others. --JGGardiner (talk) 20:33, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I find that very interesting. Every person I stayed with in America had bottled water in their refrigerator, and it is common to see television characters walk into a flat... er, apartment... and take a bottle of water out of the fridge. However, I stand corrected :) Worm^TT · (talk) 20:38, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Manners

In my experience, the American sense of general manners and politeness can be quite different to that of the British (in the same way the British view differs from the rest of Europe). For example, in the UK it is considered rude for a customer not to say please and thankyou when dealing with a retail transaction, whereas in the US it seems that being a customer means you can forgo the need to be pleasant. I've seen plenty of Americans behaving perfectly pleasantly, but I've been amazed at how impolite others can be without the 'recipient' even batting an eyelid. Conversely, in social situations Americans seem to be far more polite than Brits. There is a total lack of presumptiousness and a genuine desire to be as open minded to others views and behaviours as it is possible for a human to be. It is quite delightful. But! whilst it is lovely that Americans will take the time to listen to you no matter how much rubbish you're talking, in order to be perceived as polite you will unfortunately have to do the same! This is not really an issue in the UK. If you're bored, you just make up an excuse, walk away and try to forget it ever happened! 213.120.209.210 (talk) 15:19, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

The word please has an unfortunate nuance in certain situations in the States. I found out in the UK that people get upset if you don't say it, even in situations where on this side of the Atlantic it would be taken rather badly. Basically in America it is standardly used by authority figures when issuing what are basically orders, and if you use it in the wrong situation it can come across like an order. --Trovatore (talk) 21:57, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, and when it's emphasized and sarcastically extended, as in "Can I PLEEEEAAAAASE get some coffee here ?", the implication is that the server is taking so long, that apparently they must require a "please" to do their job. StuRat (talk) 22:08, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

In America we expect that if we are paying you, you will be the one being polite. Rmhermen (talk) 16:57, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Here we think that if someone is serving us, we should be polite to them. DuncanHill (talk) 17:06, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

And that's only possible if we have been successful in attracting a sales assistants attention in the first place...--Aspro (talk) 17:41, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

There may well be a North versus South difference in manners. Northerners tend to value efficiency, so delaying the waitress to deliver pleasantries is seen as rude to her (by making her work harder to keep up) and to the other customers (by delaying them from getting their meals). Of course, this only applies to busy times (although at light times, the waitress might still prefer taking a break over listening to a stream of complements). Southerners, on the other hand, seem to sometimes go even beyond basic compliments: "Well, if you wouldn't mind, I surely would like to try a slice of that delicious peach cobbler that you always make so well here". StuRat (talk) 17:16, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

"Washington DC, being right on the border between the North and South, has attributes of both. This explains how we arrived at a government of both Southern efficiency and Northern hospitality." - Mark Twain

StuRat (talk) 17:21, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

(ec) There's the stereotype of New Yorkers being blunt to rude on the surface, but quick to help each other in times of need, while on the West Coast, California to Seattle, people act friendly on the surface, but tend to look the other way when someone needs help--put unkindly, "fair weather friends" or a "facade". Of course it is just a stereotype, but perhaps with something to it. Southerners, in contrast and by stereotype, tend to be very friendly and sincere about it, but somewhat reserved, even formal with strangers. Naturally, these stereotypes are caricatures at best. There are both friendly and mean people all over. Another curious thing I've noticed is regional differences in honking car horns. In the Northeast car horn honking is very common, even when it serves no purpose but to vent frustration (though I hear New York City recently passed a law against it). In contrast, in the Pacific Northwest you almost never hear anyone honking their horns, except rarely when actually useful, and then usually short and "polite". I grew up in the Northeast and found it bizarre, in a good way, after moving to Seattle and discovering the near total lack of honks. Pfly (talk) 20:13, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Here in Detroit, horns are used only to convey information. Usually that's emergency info, like "my brakes are out !", but a short beep might also be used to tell somebody you plan to pick up that you are there. I don't quite understand the point of laying on the horn when in a traffic jam. Does it relieve frustrations to honk continuously ? Myself, I find constant horn honking to be even more stressful than the traffic jam. StuRat (talk) 20:19, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

One thing most Americans don't get is that driving is a martial art. People in Boston are halfway there, but even they miss the competitive streak that really characterises traffic in Germany. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:21, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

That's a very nice subtle compliment, thanks. I have never driven in Germany and I don't believe I have in Boston, but I have in Italy, and nevertheless the record for aggressiveness in my personal experience is held by Houston, Texas. I think if I were an insurer I just wouldn't do business in Houston at all. There are no doubt lots of careful drivers there, but the necessary skills to avoid an accident that's at least partly one's own fault are just too demanding. --Trovatore (talk) 23:28, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

My experience in Germany was that Germans don't believe in standing in line. They will push and shove their way to the front to be served, regardless of how many people were there ahead of them. If you tried that in the US, you'd find yourself pummeled. 216.93.212.245 (talk) 20:03, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

How does that work in Germany ? Presumably they would have to push somebody else out of line to get to the front, who then would then do the same to them. How can this not result in a fight ? StuRat (talk) 20:08, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Additional items

(I broke the responses down into manageable chunks, and titled them as best I could.) StuRat (talk) 19:28, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I recently thought of another difference. High quality television (though this is appreciable from overseas). Australia produces very little television with a cinematic quality. Off the top of my head, regarding the US, Homicide, Oz, The Wire, Deadwood. This is a recent thing too. Australians may occasionally produce high quality cinema. And Australia does do the occasional excellent crime series (Phoenix/Janus; Blue Murder); but these lack the cinematic quality of the US shows I listed. Fifelfoo (talk) 01:48, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately the truly most interesting shows, like Caprica and Firefly, tend not to last very long. One season each for those two. You go down a tiny bit in quality and you still get some pretty decent shows, like Supernatural, that find enough viewers to hang on. I'm not quite sure how Battlestar Galactica managed to make it — that's one that was good enough that I would have expected it to be canceled. --Trovatore (talk) 02:00, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

It's very difficult to get cheese in its natural colour. Elsewhere in the world cheddar cheese is pale yellow, in the US it's far more toward the orange end of the spectrum. Beer without any official mark indicating its alcohol content (at least in NY state). --203.202.43.54 (talk) 07:36, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

A good quote / Latin phrase for graduation

Graduation's around the corner, and I'm looking for a good quote that sums up the general feeling of progression, life in general and items like that. Preferably it should be by a deceased person (it adds to the neatness factor), but that's not necessary. Anyone have a quote in mind, or even a Latin phrase, that could work for the situation? Thanks. 24.10.222.226 (talk) 23:45, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

See Gaudeamus igitur.—Wavelength (talk) 23:53, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Compare http://www.multilingualbible.com/1_corinthians/15-32.htm.

—Wavelength (talk) 23:57, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

My personal preference is "iligitimi non sans carborundum" but that's not quite classical Latin (more like modern 'pseudo-Latin'). It means "don't let the bastards grind you down" supposedly. HominidMachinae (talk) 03:25, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

"Nunc movere ex vestri fundementum parentis" (my latin is quite a bit rusty, so someone should check to see if that makes sense.) --Jayron32 04:17, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

See Ecclesiastes, chapter 11, verses 9 and 10, in the public-domain World English Bible. (http://worldebible.com/ecclesiastes/11.htm)

(9) Rejoice, young man, in your youth, and let your heart cheer you in the days of your youth, and walk in the ways of your heart, and in the sight of your eyes; but know that for all these things God will bring you into judgment. (10) Therefore remove sorrow from your heart, and put away evil from your flesh; for youth and the dawn of life are vanity.

See also Ecclesiastes 12:1–7. (http://worldebible.com/ecclesiastes/12.htm)

(1) Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, before the evil days come, and the years draw near, when you will say, "I have no pleasure in them;" (2) Before the sun, the light, the moon, and the stars are darkened, and the clouds return after the rain; (3) in the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those who look out of the windows are darkened, (4) and the doors shall be shut in the street; when the sound of the grinding is low, and one shall rise up at the voice of a bird, and all the daughters of music shall be brought low; (5) yes, they shall be afraid of heights, and terrors will be in the way; and the almond tree shall blossom, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail; because man goes to his everlasting home, and the mourners go about the streets: (6) before the silver cord is severed, or the golden bowl is broken, or the pitcher is broken at the spring, or the wheel broken at the cistern, (7) and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

The original language was Hebrew, but you can see a Latin version at http://vul.scripturetext.com/ecclesiastes/11.htm and http://vul.scripturetext.com/ecclesiastes/12.htm.

—Wavelength (talk) 06:02, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I second "Gaudeamus igitur". I would also recommend this quotation from Milton's Paradise Lost, book 12, line 645ff. which is read at the Yale baccalaureate service:

Some natural tears they dropp’d, but wip’d them soon;

The world was all before them, where to choose
Their place of rest, and Providence their guide.
They hand in hand, with wand’ring steps and slow,

Through Eden took their solitary way.

—Lesgles (talk) 06:43, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

"Twenty-three years ago I fed these identical ducks with these identical sandwiches."

"Ten years ago, I too fed them to bursting point."

"And ten and twenty years hence the same ducks and the same undergraduates will share the same ritual feast, and the ducks will bite the undergraduates' fingers as they have just bitten mine. "How fleeting are all human passions compared to the massive continuity of ducks."?

86.164.60.255 (talk) 11:10, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Two come to mind: Festina lente (advice to not try to do everything instantly), and Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit - Someday it may be pleasant to remember even these things. Collect (talk) 11:23, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

24.10.222.226, you (or someone else) might wish to spend time in browsing through List of Latin phrases and Category:Latin words and phrases. Also, from my Google search for quotations for graduation, I found http://thinkexist.com/quotations/graduation and http://www.quotegarden.com/graduation.html and http://www.allgreatquotes.com/graduation_quotes.shtml and http://www.chiff.com/education/graduation/quotes.htm.

—Wavelength (talk) 15:13, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

The original poster didn't require a Latin phrase. I suggest the short 1648 poem To the Virgins, to Make Much of Time, though you might want to omit the title in order to prevent excess giggling in the audience. Or the short set of lyrics from the 1973 song Brain Damage Eclipse, which closes out Pink Floyd's album The Dark Side of the Moon. These two pieces share a theme that's common to discuss at graduations, which is that it's nice to focus on the now, which is easy to lose focus on as we race forward, obsessed with our projects and deadlines and what's happening tomorrow. Comet Tuttle (talk) 17:34, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

In harmony with the general feeling of progression, life in general and items like that, then that the OP asks for... I would say what one discovers in kindergarten still applies... Nil illegitimo in desperandum carborundum--Aspro (talk) 18:21, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Because I'm a pessimist, what do you feel about "tempus fugit" (time flies) and "sic transit gloria mundi" (thus passes away the glory of the world)? 128.232.241.211 (talk) 22:08, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

May 17

I have some mythology questions!

1. Can someone list any recent mermaid sightings any where in the world? 2. Do you believe in the Loch Ness monster? 3. Can someone give me some info on sirens in mythology? 4. Can someone name any mermaid fiction books for adults? Neptunekh2 (talk) 01:36, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

• 1. No, because mermaids don't exist. 2. This is not the correct place to discuss what I believe. 3. Did you read the article Siren? It's pretty extensive. 4. See Mermaids in popular culture. --Jayron32 04:12, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

That's a terrible answer to number 1. There are sightings for all sorts of things that don't exist. Big Foot, Loch Ness Monster, Alien space-craft, etc.

I doubt there are many "serious", modern sightings of mermaids, though. They're a throwback to when people had a very different understanding of the world. No modern person would see something in the water and assume it was a human/fish hybrid. (Or even a human/cetacean hybrid.) It'd be like spotting a Vegetable Lamb. It doesn't make sense anymore.

No excuse for the relative dearth of mermaids in fiction though. APL (talk) 05:33, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't agree that "No modern person would see something in the water and assume it was a human/fish hybrid". There are still lots of primitive people in the world with little knowledge of science (even putting Republicans aside...) . Of course, you might not have meant to include them as "modern". In either case, since such people still exist, it's still possible they will see a manatee and picture it in lipstick and a thong. StuRat (talk) 06:27, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

You have to define "modern" carefully. I've not sighted this mermaid in many years.... --Jayron32 06:31, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I have doubts most primitive people who may still think mermaids exist would picture them in lipstick and a thong Nil Einne (talk) 09:12, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Well, just because they don't get science there doesn't mean they lack for porno mags. They still want the important things, after all. :-) StuRat (talk) 19:26, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I think you'll find you're mistaken about what most of them have access to. I'm not even sure they'll necessarily find such things as thongs and lipstick attractive anyway. Nil Einne (talk) 03:04, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

1. Click. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 08:34, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Ooh, she's well bronzed

1 - British Columbia, 1967, and Israel, 2009. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:47, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I guess I was wrong. People do still believe. I'm incredibly disappointed that the newspaper photo from 1967 can't be found. I'll bet it's a classic. APL (talk) 18:52, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Sadly, the paper said to have reported the canadian mermaid doesn't seem to have its archives online, so I wasn't able to figure out if they had an article about a gorgeous blond mermaid in 1967. However, the Victoria Advocate's microfilms are online! I didn't feel like slogging through a years worth of papers looking for a mention of a mermaid, but google's slightly unreliable search did not turn up any mentions of gorgeous blond mermaids in that paper in 1967.

However, in searching for it, I did find that in 1961 a lot of papers reported on an AP story about mermaid spottings off the Isle of Man. ([9] [10]) APL (talk) 20:06, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

1 - Fiji mermaid. Comet Tuttle (talk) 17:26, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

See Manatee Collect (talk) 19:05, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I sure wish I'd thought to include that link. :-) StuRat (talk) 19:24, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Built-In Speakers

The home I am renting has speakers built into the deck, living room and bedroom walls. The previous tenants did not bother to hook anything up to them. What kind of cords/connections do I need for these outlets? Can I hook my PC to them? Thank you in advance --Endlessdan (talk) 12:32, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

They could be 4mm Banana sockets. You need to check their impeadance suits the copmuters amplifier. However, if the amps power is below that of what the speakers are rated at, then you risk wrecking the speakers. You need to the amp to supply more power -not the other way around. Unscrew the grill and see if the spec. is on the speaker ident plate.--Aspro (talk) 13:12, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Aspro, how can you wreck speakers by feeding them too little power? I've wrecked speakers by feeding them too much power. I agree that impedances need to be matched. Dbfirs 16:15, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for the response but I don't know what any of that means! --Endlessdan (talk) 13:31, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

If you want to hook your computer up to speakers of these type, you likely need to do two things. First of all, You need an amplifier of some sort. You'll want to get an amplifier which is rated for the kind of speakers you have. If one did not come with the house, you'll need to buy one. First, look at the label on the back of the speaker, and find the power and resistance rating of the speakers; then go to your local home audio store and tell the clerk what kind of speakers you have; they will hook you up with the correct amplifier. There is likely a shelf where the amplifier was located before, or some other place where all of the built-in speakers are wired to. Find all of these wires, and figure out what sort of connection you have. The common options are

1. If the speakers wires end in stripped speaker wire, you'll need an amplifier that can accept bare speaker wires, see this image for two examples, the right side has a little clip-type receptical, and the left has screw-type recepticals.
2. If the speaker wires end in a connector, you'll need to have an amplifier with inputs for the type of connector you have. The common connectors vary depending on whether you are in the U.S. or Europe or the U.K., but frequently they are a) banana connectors see [11] b) TRS connectors, see [12] for two common sizes c) RCA connectors, see [13] d) rarely, it may be XLR connectors, which are more commonly used for large public-address systems and professional audio mixing boards, so likely overkill for a home system, see [14].

After you have installed the amplifier, you'll need to connect your computer to it. The amplifier should have an "audio in" receptical, usually running off of a small TRS plug (see above); while your computer soundboard should have an identically sized "audio out" receptical. You'll want to connect the "audio out" from the computer to the "audio in" on your amplifier, and then make sure the amplifier's selector switch is set to the "audio in" input channel. Then you should be able to run the computer audio through your built-in speakers. --Jayron32 14:25, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

This makes much more sense. Thank you very much. I really appreciate this. --Endlessdan (talk) 15:03, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I just checked your pic (not sure why I missed it last time). These look like banana connectors. You'll need sets of wires with the right sized banana connectors to connect from those outlets to the back of the amplifier, and an amplifier with enough outputs to handle them. You're probably also going to have to do some "trial and error" to figure out which sets of wires go to which speakers. The wires should be color coded, just match "red" to "red" and "black" to "black" and you should be good to go. --Jayron32 16:14, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Geneva Convention on Road Traffic

Wikisource has the text of the treaty of the Geneva Convention on Road Traffic in English. I have seen the French translation as well. Does any one know where I can find this document in Chinese, Russian, Spanish, German or Russian. 14.139.128.14 (talk) 14:45, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

My search for an answer has so far been unsuccessful, but I have discovered the following information.

Convention on Road Traffic can refer to:

• The United Nations' Geneva Convention on Road Traffic (1949)
• The United Nations' Vienna Convention on Road Traffic (1968)

[The edit links are out of alignment with the sections, so I am editing the whole page instead of the section.]

—Wavelength (talk) 17:25, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Elizabeth II's visit to Ireland

I just read about Queen Elizabeth II's visit to the Republic of Ireland, and was amazed that it is apparently the first visit ever of a British monarch to the Republic of Ireland, and the first visit of a British monarch to Ireland at all in about a century. Seeing as Ireland is pretty much the UK's closest neighbour country, why is it that there have been so few state visits? Is it just because of political issues regarding Ireland's independence, as I have read at Republic of Ireland – United Kingdom relations? JIP | Talk 19:13, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Probably, yes, and specifically fears of assassination attempts. StuRat (talk) 19:22, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Between 1969-1997, such a visit would have been impossible because of the threat. (Before that, there was a mixture, I believe, of political tensions from the new republic and a significant security threat.) For a long time, the UK partly blamed the Republic for failing to control the IRA (cf. the Border Campaign (Irish Republican Army)) although the IRA was a huge problem to the republic. The threat from the Provisional Irish Republican Army campaign 1969–1997 was, and is, very real in the UK as a whole, since the IRA carried out a significant number of attacks on English soil. It appears at least one effort was made now to disrupt the proceedings, even after the Belfast Agreement and the vast majority of the IRA demilitarising. In a sense, then, it isn't the Irish government itself, but rather the overwhelming possibility of a significant security threat. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 19:26, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) There have only been 4 British monarchs who could have ever visited the Republic of Ireland, those being George V, Edward VIII, George VI, and Elizabeth II. George V saw Ireland overthrow him as monarch, so understandably he probably had little reason to visit. Edward VIII didn't reign long enough to visit much of anywhere, and most of George VI's reign was taken up with World War II. As to why Elizabeth didn't visit before now, part of it was the traditionl animosity over the status of Northern Ireland. Given security concerns, it may have been very unwise for Elizabeth II to visit Ireland during the time of The Troubles, which occupied most of her reign. --Jayron32 19:30, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Even now, Ireland defused a bomb on a bus today headed toward Dublin.[15] Rmhermen (talk) 21:00, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

... and the first visit of a British monarch to Ireland at all in about a century - if you're referring there to the whole island of Ireland, that claim is not correct. The Queen has visited Northern Ireland previously, but again it took a long time before it was considered safe to do so. George V did visit what is now the Republic of Ireland, in 1911, but back then the whole of the island was a British possession. Elizabeth is the first UK monarch to visit the Republic of Ireland following its independence from the UK. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 21:17, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Dan McGrew of Hixson, TN

Lance, if your dad grew up in Hixson TN in the 60's then we should talk. I would love to hear from him again! Tom Anderson —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.243.176.11 (talk) 23:57, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

This is not a dating service, Tom. Contact "Lance", whoever the hell he is, some other way. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 02:02, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

May 18

telescope

which is the best telescope to buy for a starter with best picture quality and which can help view all the planets.. please advise —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.199.66.118 (talk) 07:13, 18 May 2011 (UTC)