Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard

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Prequel

While trying to assist in a discussion (current thread) that I found at WP:DRN, User:Betty Logan suggested we get input on the neutrality of one of my edits, which was based in large part on some of hers but with additional sources. She and I are both attempting to resolve differences between User:Gothicfilm, who believes the text is undue weight and the three Apes movies in question are not prequels except in an expansive sense, and User:Barsoomian, who believes they are prequels sufficiently so to be listed in the prequel table.

There is technically an open RFC on the talk page, which led to the DRN, but the current active section is as above and the active editors are making progress only slowly. It is my opinion on reviewing both sides of the dispute that some reliable sources refer to the 3 movies as prequels, that a couple give language from which it might be logically inferred they are not prequels (slight OR, but we don't want to force anyone to prove negatives), and that both source sets should be reflected in the article. (Many sources simply ignore the question and use the word "sequels", which begs the unsourced question of whether sequels and prequels are mutually exclusive.)

The language might qualify as undue because it's two sentences focused on a particular franchise; we basically agreed some franchise should serve as an example, and we had been working with Star Trek as a better example, and so having a second example may be straining at a gnat. However, keeping the language in is not the important question: the dispute turns on whether the three films should be listed in the table with the gray coloring to indicate their disputed status. So I reinserted the language to see if all parties agreed with its neutrality as a baseline, as it might answer the more heated table question. One solution is if Gothicfilm should agree that the insertion is correct and thus the table addition would be valid in lieu; another is if Barsoomian should agree that the sources indicating "these are prequels" are only a tiny minority unfit for inclusion; there may be middle ground (graying lines in the table was a good start, I think).

The debate has also been shown to extend to categorization of these three movies just about everywhere else on WP.

Local questions: 1. Does the edit represent both sides neutrally, or what language would be better? 2. Are the sources there sufficient to indicate adding the three movies to the table, or what easy way would demonstrate they are only a tiny minority? Let the fur fly! JJB 01:50, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

I thought this debate was all but wrapped up, but unfortunately the Dispute Resolution guy JJB for some reason now seems to want to to advocate for Barsoomian, the one user who alone was going against everyone else's consensus both at WT:FILM and at the Prequel Talk page. He closed the Prequel discussion at WP:Dispute resolution noticeboard. Yet we continue. It now appears JJB wants to override WP:CONSENSUS and declare the last three of the original Planet of the Apes series films to be "prequels". He found a tiny number of sources that imprecisely made less-than-rigorous use that word, and - despite having it pointed out by Betty Logan that People who don't believe it is a prequel are hardly likely to describe it as "not a prequel", they are much more likely to describe it as something else, he wants me to find sources that describe Apes films like Escape from the Planet of the Apes as "not a prequel". He wants me to prove a negative. That's seems unreasonable to me. The fact that only a tiny number of sources have called Escape a prequel ought to be enough. WP:WEIGHT says Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views (such as Flat Earth). To give undue weight to the view of a significant minority, or to include that of a tiny minority, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute.

JJB is now claiming that WP:SILENT acceptance is (until noted otherwise) a change of opinion, from prior activity to present inactivity, and allows him to override the consensus from a week and a half ago. This is the new way to override consensus? Declare it inactive? Though I note Barry Wom came over there today to comment on how consensus is being ignored, and how some of the citations provided are a bit desperate for calling these films "prequels."

As I explained in the extended conversations above at Talk:Prequel#Planet of the Apes series has no prequels and the following Talk:Prequel#RfC: Planet of the Apes prequels, I agreed to describing Rise of the Planet of the Apes in the article as a reboot film that a large but minority of sources imprecisely called a prequel. But I don't believe that's accurate for the original Planet of the Apes series sequels. I have read a great deal about them over the years, including looking back at contemporaneous articles. They were always called sequels, all four of them. Each film has characters moving forward in their own timeline from the previous film, and they discuss what happened in that preceding film. The narrative as well as the characters of those films continue forward in their own story in each one, even as they go back in time. For the three primary Apes characters, the events of the third film occur after the original narrative. Not before.

To again quote Betty Logan: In the case of the 70s sequels, there really isn't that much out there calling them prequels, just the odd source here and there, and for the most part they are usually regarded as sequels, so the question is whether there is enough opinion out there to warrant the claim that there is a significant view they are prequels? I generally think there isn't if I have to call it.

Again, consensus both here and at WT:FILM is firmly against listing any of the original Planet of the Apes series sequels as prequels. They were against including Rise as well, but I compromised and went along with listing it in gray shading because it's a reboot that a large but minority of sources imprecisely called a prequel. You may be able to find a small number of sources that have called some of the original sequel films prequels, but not enough to be notable. A very tiny number compared to those that called Rise a prequel. Usually when consensus is reached, it's done and we move on. It seems to me this dispute should be over. - Gothicfilm (talk) 03:43, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Ah. To clarify to the board: (1) Yes, as a DRN volunteer I closed discussion on that page because it was best moved back to Talk:Prequel. (2) No, I did not count the "inactive" editors like Barry who did not express interest in working toward a resolution. As to the rest, I trust the board volunteers here will determine how much it relates to my two questions in good time. JJB 06:01, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

I note that Gothicfilm's only sources are 1) his own opinion and 2) paraphrases of other WP editors' opinions. The text in question is supported by WP:RS. I have cited quite a few other sources in the long discussion at Talk:Prequel. If more weight is needed I can summarise them here. Barsoomian (talk) 09:48, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

The prequel to the above prequel discussion

I don't see the point of just continuing the dispute on here, so I am going to try to summarise both sides of the argument succintly and fairly.

1. The definition of "prequel" is not concrete, its usage varies from case to case.
2. In view of the fuzziness of the definition, it has been agreed by all parties that disputed cases should be sourced.
3. Due to the above problems, there is conflict between sources: some sources call some films prequels, and others do not i.e. it is really an opinion as to whether something is a prequel or not,
4. In view of the above factors, it is generally agreed by all parties, that the weighting of sources referring to something as a prequel should be taken into account.
5. The above approach has worked well in some cases, but there is a sticking point in regards to Escape from the Planet of the Apes, Conquest of the Planet of the Apes, and Battle for the Planet of the Apes. The original RFC is here (it is long and laborious though, and many of the issues have actually been resolved).

The question

• What we want from NPOV/N is an explicit interpretation of WP:DUE in relation to these three films i.e. whether the RS coverage describing these films as a "prequel" constitutes a significant point of view, to the extent that being neutral dictates its inclusion or exclusion. It is this part of the policy that requires interpretation in this context: Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views (such as Flat Earth). To give undue weight to the view of a significant minority, or to include that of a tiny minority, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. We are not particularly interested in interpreting the definition and applying to the films, that is original research given its broad usage.

Case for inclusion

The term prequel has been ascribed to this set of films in several reliable sources. Taken from the discussion page at Talk:Prequel#Apes_source_analysis (I'm listing them here, because the discussion on the talk page is labyrinthine):

• Filmsite.org by AMC. Escape a "sequel and prequel".
• Tor.com by Macmillan Publishing. Conquest a "prequel".
• Huffington Post, 2006. Battle a "prequel". (NEW)
• Slotkin's book: "prequels" implying all 3; previously in article
• Also found but not really reliable: Youtube, IMDB, Amazon, Angelfire, Wikipedia itself.

Case against

There are sources that have have an extremely minority view in this regard, such as this Empire magazine article that refers to Manhunter as a prequel (which everyone agrees is not). Admitting every film that is described as a prequel would lead to the list losing cohesion. Finding sources that describe the films as not prequels is difficult because it requires proving a negative i.e. sources that do not consider them prequels describe them as something else. On Google the vast majority of sources refer to them as sequels rather than prequels.

In pre-2000 sources (before remakes and reboots came along) Google give the following stats for usage:

"planet of the apes" sequel -rise -Burton – 715 hits

"planet of the apes" prequel -rise -Burton – 122 hits (goes down to zero when you actual look at the context though i.e. being on the same list as Star Wars prequels)

In this respect the usage seems to suggest that the films are overwhelmingly described as a sequels, and not prequels.Please note if you google "prequel" and "Planet of the apes" you will get a high hit rate post 2000, but this is mainly because of Rise of the Planet of the Apes which is included and not disputed.

Conclusion

What we want to know is whether the coverage of these films in reliable sources justifies refrering to these films as prequels in the prose and the table. We do have a key that permits disputed definitions, but in the cases where this is applied there are a vast quantity of sources backing up the alternate claim. The gray shading isn't intended to make the table into a free for all, just to add come perspective. Unless you believe I have grossly misrepresented one side of the argument, I ask the other involved parties to step back, at least until someone neutral gives us an opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Betty Logan (talk • contribs) 13:13, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Clarifications: Betty is making a reasonable presentation as well; I would add that in the list Betty quoted there was also originally an Apes comics interview that had supportive implied usage of "prequel" for the films, which also appears in the diff in question. It seems to me though that if Betty is uninterested in applying the dicdef, that would exclude the POV that "if it says sequel it's not a prequel", which is not a sourced POV except by implication in dicdef; and it would exclude the POV that "Manhunter" is not a prequel, because that one is clearly (also) a "predecessor" and the usage section makes clear that everyone agrees on applying the dicdef to exclude the predecessors, which are noncontroversially discerned. In short, it seems to me the only sources in the case against are dicdefs, and no sources specific to these three movies have arisen (even though we are not asking the case against to prove a negative). JJB 14:25, 28 April 2012 (UTC) Oh, I'm sorry, Betty, your section title above uses the word "prequel" as "predecessor", and I thought we had consensus not to do that! :D JJB 14:26, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

The currently unsigned "prequel to the prequel" above was written by an editor who opposes inclusion. It does not represent the inclusion viewpoint correctly. I will make a few additional points: 1) the fact that the word "prequel" is relatively new. In regards to film, there is no known film review prior to 1979 that uses the word. The films in question were made in the early 70s. So no contemporary reviews of that, or ANY film of the period, use the word. Thus the Google count she cites of scant mentions of the word just reflects that fact. Some retrospective reviews that do call the films "prequels" have been cited. The opponents have provided no reason to discount these, (the Empire article disparaged is NOT one that was cited; she unaccountably also lists several other dubious sources, from blogs, Youtube, etc., under "Case for inclusion" that were never used as references in the real "case for inclusion", that I have never seen before, then discounts them while ignoring the sources actually cited, just trying to discredit them by association) and presents no countervailing sources. 2) She asserts "We are not particularly interested in interpreting the definition". Neither party actually agrees with that. 3) She states "the vast majority of sources refer to them as sequels rather than prequels", which assumes a definition, and assumes that the terms are mutually exclusive. There is no source for the latter assumption, and counter examples are mentioned in the prose in both Prequel and Sequel, the latter stating "A sequel that portrays events which precede those of the original work is called a "prequel."" i.e., prequels are a subset of sequels. 4) "We do have a key that permits disputed definitions, but in the cases where this is applied there are a vast quantity of sources backing up the alternate claim." The works included as "disputed" all have cited sources supporting their inclusion. There are no sources at all opposing them, only the opinion of some editors that these sources are wrong. (In some cases I agree with that opinion, but it remains only an opinion.) The idea that we must have a "vast quantity" of sources to override editors' opinions is not a policy I agree with. Even one good source should suffice to verify this when there are no sources to say otherwise. However, despite the works that provoked this dispute all having sources for inclusion, and none against, their listing, even as "disputed", has been repeatedly deleted by some editors. Ironically, since the "disputed" category was created expressly as a way of accommodating the opponents' opinions. Barsoomian (talk) 17:53, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

@unaccountably: She's quoting me. I mentioned, solely in passing, several questionable sources in addition to those reliable enough for this in-universe question. While she deleted one RS (a Yahoo interview with an Apes creator), as well as all 4 dicdefs and references to numerous timeline inferential sources, she retained the offhand reference to the QS. Otherwise, your sentence seems correct. JJB 02:40, 29 April 2012 (UTC) Oh, and Betty's original formulation of the question from talk was, "So I suggest we take this edit over to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard and get a ruling on it, and stand by the outcome either way." Commenters, please consider all drafts of the question, thanks. JJB 02:48, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Third Party Comments

It appears the question is "whether the RS coverage describing these films as a "prequel" constitutes a significant point of view. To review the sources:

• Huffington Post, 2006. Battle a "prequel".

A throwaway line in a blog review of Hannibal Rising by a comedy writer is hardly significant.

• Slotkin's book: "prequels" implying all 3

Only the foreward (by a different author) uses the term "prequel" once, and he encloses it in quotes. The main text refers to the films as "sequels".

• Filmsite.org by AMC. Escape a "sequel and prequel".

Whether a film can be both, and whether "prequels are subsets of sequels" (as suggested above) is debatable. Several dictionary definitions would suggest at the least that the latter three films are more sequel than prequel by defining prequel as "portraying the same characters at a younger age" and as "a film [...] about an earlier stage of a story or a character's life". The "story" in the three sequels is more concerned with a continuation of the story of the characters from the first two films rather than providing a pre-history of the events and/or characters in the first two films.

• Tor.com by Macmillan Publishing. Conquest a "prequel".

Again, this source suggests that Conquest is both a prequel and a sequel, but it also goes on to suggest that this is against the normal usage of these terms by saying "How is that possible you ask? Come on, this is science fiction!" Further, as has already been pointed out under "Case against", asking for counter-examples is asking to prove a negative ('Escape is not a prequel'). Since "the vast majority of sources refer to them as sequels rather than prequels", mentioning them in an article on prequels is to give undue weight to a minority view. Barry Wom (talk) 11:12, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Barry, but I don't think fellow WT:FILM contributors are the group Betty meant by "third parties". Otherwise, thanks for representing the sources essentially accurately. It would be helpful to cite some supportive view, some POV such as that "films cannot be both", or the synthesis argument that not portraying the same characters earlier in life precludes prequel, or that "the Apes story is less about prehistory". In most list articles I've worked with, a single RS is sufficient for entry as long as the list criteria are met, but here the zero-source entries are kept and the multi-source entries are fought. It is the criteria that are fuzzy, not the sources; we clarified the criteria with graying but that didn't remove the fuzziness in people's minds. Your objections to the sources are not objections to the criteria (the sources requested would be objections if they arose); notability for list inclusion is not notability for article-length treatment, and so the question of whether we are dealing with a "tiny minority" (5% was suggested) of sources that have considered the question is still in play.

Again, ladies and gentlemen of the board, Betty's presenting question was whether the edit text represents both sides neutrally or unduly, and thus whether one side is so tiny-minority as to leave the movies out of the table. She appears to have added that she feels definitional implications are excluded, but if they were I think it would remove all sources from the "no" side, so that add bifurcates the question; please answer as best as possible, thank you. JJB 15:13, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Re Barry Wom: "this source suggests that Conquest is both a prequel and a sequel, but it also goes on to suggest that this is against the normal usage of these terms" -- The writer introduced the term, he wasn't critiquing someone else's use, and we have no reason to assume he didn't think it was valid. He just asked rhetorically "How is this possible?" The answer of course is that the story uses time travel. So, an unusual kind of prequel, yes; illegitimate, no hint of that. As for "minority view", no sources at all say otherwise. This is not a case of 1% of sources saying something and 99% saying the opposite. It's an esoteric, geeky question, and only 1% have considered it worth discussion. There are none cited who have who dissented. The "minority/majority" only makes sense if it is with respect to the proportion of sources that discuss this point. Not sources that just mentioned the films. Barsoomian (talk) 15:48, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

The most reliable rule of thumb consistent with the dictionary definition is that the characters in a sequel are aware of the events in the predecessor story and the characters in a prequel are not. That is why a film can't be a sequel and a prequel: since some of the characters in e.g. The Godfather, Part II remember the events in The Godfather, that is a sequel, even though there are events in the second film that predate the first. --Ring Cinema (talk) 17:07, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Covance

I would appreciate some uninvolved eyes at Covance to check for neutrality, particularly the neutrality of the lead.

Covance is a contract research organization, and one of the kinds of research it offers is animal testing. Between 2003 and 2005, there were two undercover investigations by animal advocacy groups, the first by the British Union for the Abolition of Vivisection and the second by People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, in Covance's primate laboratories in Germany and the United States. Both produced footage showing what the groups said was abuse of monkeys. In Germany no action was taken against the company; in the United States there was a small fine.

The issue now is that several new or sporadically used accounts (User:BrainSnail, User:Tbd-r1 and User:Cromng) are arguing – on article talk and a user talk page (see User talk:Tbd-r1) – that any mention of the controversy should be removed from the lead, and the rest of it moved to another article. I've added the company's perpective to the lead and clarified the response of the authorities, but I don't agree that it should be removed entirely (per WP:LEAD). One of the accounts also wants to rewrite the article from a corporate perspective; see his version of the article.

As the new accounts have adopted the company's perspective, and as I have animal rights sympathies, it would be helpful if uninvolved editors could take a look. The key questions are: (1) should the undercover investigations be mentioned in the lead? (2) if yes, are they summarized appropriately? and (3) is the current section about the controversy written appropriately?

For anyone wanting to review the undercover footage, here is the BUAV video, and the PETA video. (The BUAV video is hosted on the PETA website because there was some litigation in Germany between BUAV and Covance, which I believe resulted in BUAV agreeing to remove it from their site, but I'm having difficulty finding good sources on that.) There is also a BUAV summary. There are secondary sources in the article; for example Nature and CNN. For other sources, see footnote 5. I can email the Nature article to anyone who can't see it.

Many thanks in advance for any input. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 05:29, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

SV, Thanks for raising this, as I was one of the users named here I would like to clarify what I am suggesting: The article how SV is posting it is based on valid references, however ~ 50% of the article refers to what SV is standing for, however it ONLY reflects ~10-15% of the companies' activities. I am recommending to create (or change the current page to) a Subsidiary: 'Covance Laboratories',like Johnson & Johnson, Verizon Communications, ExxonMobil, General Electric etc and re-instate the page 'Covance Inc.' as the parent company page. This way another subsidiary can explain the Phase 1 testing with human volunteers etc.

I will copy this link to the talk pages of the other users mentioned so they can provide their input to the Neutrality board. Thank you! Cromng (talk) 18:12, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi Cromng, we don't seem to be getting much response here. There are other ways to attract uninvolved editors, so we can try elsewhere if needed.

To address your argument, the fact that animal research represents 10-15 percent of the company's overall activity misses the point (also, not sure what 10-15 percent means exactly, so if you have sources that would help). For a recent analogy, Rupert Murdoch told the House of Commons in the UK that the News of the World (a newspaper people were complaining about), represented only one percent of his business, but this was seen as a distraction. The point was that that one percent had become controversial.

The Covance abuse allegations caused a lot of concern, with the result that (for example) Paul McCartney opposed a Covance planning application in 2006, [1] and Gloria Steinem asked that Covance not sponsor an event she was speaking at in 2007. [2] For public-relations reasons, a company in that position might prefer to have the material removed from the lead or the article as a whole. But to do that would be a violation of Wikipedia's neutrality policy, as well as a guideline that cautions against moving criticism into sub-articles; see WP:POVFORK. So I would be opposed to any attempt to do that. Having said that, I'd be willing to work with you on the wording. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 16:24, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• There is no way I am getting involved in this, but I refer the editors to WP:WEIGHT, which states neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint. I don't know how much of an issue this animal testing thing is, but the percentage of animal testing that takes up company activities is not relevant. What does matter is how much the animal testing is reported by the media in relation to its other activities. For example, if nearly all news articles are about the animal testing then it's perfectly ok for the article to focus on that. If only 10% of the news stories are about animal testing then only 10% of the article should be about it. My recommendation is to do a company name search on some news providers, and assess the frequency of news stories about the animal testing. As for the lead, that should be like a synopsis for the article rather than an introduction as per MOS:LEAD i.e. try and relate the whole article to the reader in a couple of hundred words. If animal testing is covered in any detail in the article, then it is proper to mention it proportionally in the lead. Betty Logan (talk) 18:41, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

True Finns

Some prominent members of this Finnish political party have made colorful statements on the record. At issue is if they should be mentioned on the party article. There's been a slow-running dispute for a while; I think it could benefit from the attention of outside editors. a13ean (talk) 13:42, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

This is an older post but I don't see any response here so far. Reviewing Wiki policies seems to lead to the conclusion that these statements are not appropriate in this article. The statements are peculiar to the speakers and do not purport to assert the position of the party. They just happen to be made by people who associate themselves with the party. WP:Relevance states:

On Wikipedia, relevance is simply whether a fact (in an article) is useful to the reader and is in the right article. If a fact is not relevant to the topic of the article, it should not be mentioned in that article. This does not mean it can not be mentioned in some other article. Mentioning things that are irrelevant to an article's topic can give them Undue Weight.

Per WP:Relevance of content

Wikipedia articles should be written in summary style, providing an overview of their subject. This overview may touch upon several related topics or subtopics, but any details not immediately relevant to the primary topic should be moved into other articles, linking to them if appropriate. If coverage of a subtopic grows to the point where it overshadows the main subject (or digresses too far from it), it may be appropriate to spin it off into a sub-article.

These statements seem to belong in articles about their speakers, not in this article.Coaster92 (talk) 03:58, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

I would agree; comments made by individual party members may or may not reflect the perspectives of the party as a whole and as such belong (where due) in their articles as individuals. Unless, of course, one individual's comments have gained either widespread documented support by party members in general or in some way have created an issue that the party has responded to in some official manner, in which case it has become a party matter and suitable for the party page. Autumnalmonk (talk) 13:05, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Medical records of birth defects in children of Gulf War combat personnel

In Gulf War syndrome, this edit removed mention of US Department of Veterans Affairs Chief Epidemiologist Han Kang's examination of the medical records of children born to Gulf War combat veterans after surveys found evidence of two times as many birth defects in the children of male troops, and about three times as many in the children of deployed female soldiers. The study of medical records was done in response to the concerns raised about the reliability of surveys in an earlier review and in the survey reports themselves, and it found that there were actually more birth defects than had been described in the survey reports. The editor deleting the medical records check source had earlier included a description of concerns about bias in the surveys, and deleted mention of the surveys in favor of the general conclusions of a review of all troops including those from countries such as Australia and France whose soldiers' children do not have any excess birth defects. At Talk:Gulf War syndrome#Dubious, the editor calls the government publication describing the medical records check "just a newsletter" and therefore says it fails WP:MEDRS. I disagree because it is a government publication held as reliable as scholarship per WP:MEDRS#Choosing sources, describing the work of the preeminent authority on the topic, and as such it presents an opposing view which would be obscured to the point of inaccuracy if it were omitted. I am interested in others' opinions. 71.215.84.127 (talk) 23:10, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Are you referring to the discussion on page 10 of the Gulf War Review, published by the Department of Veterans Affairs? I have looked at that discussion but I am not convinced that it stands for the statement in question: "A subsequent check against medical records by the Department of Veterans Affairs' Chief Epidemiologist found more birth defects." For one, the footnote mentions ongoing research so the results are not final and there is no opportunity to review the work in progress. I agree with you that this publication might in some cases be considered a reliable source under this section of WP:MEDRS:

Medical and scientific organizations Statements and information from reputable major medical and scientific bodies may be valuable encyclopedic sources. These bodies include the U.S. National Academies (including the Institute of Medicine and the National Academy of Sciences), the British National Health Service, the U.S. National Institutes of Health and Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and the World Health Organization. The reliability of these sources range from formal scientific reports, which can be the equal of the best reviews published in medical journals, through public guides and service announcements, which have the advantage of being freely readable, but are generally less authoritative than the underlying medical literature.

But the statement in question is quite strong and affirmative as compared with the language of the footnote, which speaks of preliminary results. A statement to the effect that preliminary research that involves cross checking the survey results against medical records seems to support the findings would appear more appropriate, in my opinion.Coaster92 (talk) 20:44, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes: "Dr. Kang found that male Gulf War veterans reported having infants with likely birth defects at twice the rate of non-veterans. [see [3]] Furthermore, female Gulf War veterans were almost three times more likely to report children with birth defects than their non-Gulf counterparts. The numbers changed somewhat with medical records verification. However, Dr. Kang and his colleagues concluded that the risk of birth defects in children of deployed male veterans still was about 2.2 times that of non-deployed veterans." (p. 10, emphasis added.)

I agree describing it as a "preliminary examination of medical records" would be superior. 71.215.84.127 (talk) 23:26, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

After editing the article to reflect the suggestion from Coaster92 here, the editor who I was concerned about asked another editor for help, and they have reverted the disputed statements and much more of the article in ways which I believe make the NPOV issues much worse. I'm going to try to address their points when I get more time. 71.215.84.127 (talk) 20:11, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Kid Ink

Articles has been deleted 4 times as an A7, once as a G3, and once as a G11. When created, the article often has unverified claims and reference claims whose references do not back up the claims made at all. I've recently cleaned up the article and I believe that the subject is now most likely notable but I think it would be helpful if a few other users added the article to their watchlist to guard from more NPOV and promotional editing. OlYeller21^Talktome 17:13, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Looking for help with Neutrality of Company article

I created an article for the company I work for Mirus Futurues LLC. The first article I created was marked for deletion due to neutrality. I have since gotten the page back on my user folder and have removed sections that I could see as being bias.

I would appreciate it if other editors could take a look at the page and make changes or suggestions so that I can move the page live once again without worrying about it being deleted.

Here is the page url: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Slosh3719/Mirus_Futures,_LLC

Any help would be appreciated.

Slosh3719 (talk) 18:50, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I looked at the article and the references except reference number 2 wouldn't open because there were too many redirects to the page. Most of this article reads like an advertisement contrary to WP:ADVERT. There are no references cited for most of the article and none of the references cited looked like reliable secondary sources. Instead, the references seem to be blogs or press releases. As a result, the article does not have a neutral tone in contrast with WP:NPOV and the subject does not appear notable. See WP:Notability. You might review these (and other) sections of [WP:NPOV]]:

Explanation of the neutral point of view: Achieving what the Wikipedia community understands as "neutrality" means carefully and critically analyzing a variety of reliable sources and then attempting to convey to the reader the information contained in them clearly and accurately.

Attributing and specifying biased statements: Biased statements of opinion can only be presented with attribution. For instance, "John Doe is the best baseball player" expresses an opinion and cannot be asserted in Wikipedia as if it were a fact. It can be included as a factual statement about the opinion: "John Doe's baseball skills have been praised by baseball insiders such as Al Kaline and Joe Torre." Opinions must still be verifiable and appropriately cited.

The article uses terms such as "reliable," "fast," "constantly searching," "Mirus believes." These suggest an advertisement. What have reliable secondary sources such as the New York Times or Time Magazine said about this company? That is what you need to look at and write about. Also, I am not sure what the limitations are about editors posting articles for which they have a conflict of interest. Other editors may know this. Good luck.Coaster92 (talk) 05:28, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the information you have provided. I went through and trimmed a lot more out of the article. One question I did have is on information that is true, but only displayed through the company website. For example, the opening section about the founding. I dont believe a secondary source has ever printed that. Can it not be included unless a secondary source somewhere has printed it?

I'm not sure why the reference links did not work for you. I just tested them again and they all seem to be working fine. Any additional help you can provide on this would be very appreciated. Do you know if there is a way for me to go about having other editors work on the article? Slosh3719 (talk) 20:20, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Per WP:Verifiability, information from self published sources can be used in some circumstances. The problem with this company is that there don't seem to be any reliable secondary sources that cover it, in which case the subject is not notable and the article would be subject to deletion under WP:Notability. This is the policy I found about when self published sources might be used:

Self-published or questionable sources as sources on themselves: Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, usually in articles about themselves or their activities, without the requirement in the case of self-published sources that they be published experts in the field, so long as: 1. the material is not unduly self-serving and exceptional in nature; 2. it does not involve claims about third parties; 3. it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the source; 4. there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity; 5. the article is not based primarily on such sources. This policy also applies to pages on social networking sites such as Twitter, Tumblr, and Facebook.

To get more help, you might try posting a note on the conflict of interest noticeboard WP:COIN or posting your article idea on WikiProject. Here is a relevant section of WP:Conflict of Interest I found:

Suggesting changes to articles, or requesting a new article: See also: Wikipedia:Suggestions for COI compliance An editor with a conflict of interest who wishes to suggest substantive changes to an article should use that article's talk page. The request edit template should be used; it must be added manually to the talk page. When making a request, please consider disclosing your conflict of interest to avoid misunderstanding. To request a new article, you can present your idea on the talk page of a relevant article or WikiProject.

I still think a major problem is the lack of notability of the subject. Good luck.Coaster92 (talk) 04:50, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

NPOV vs mainstream science

Is there a difference in understanding between NPOV and mainstream science view ?

Take a contentious topic like cold fusion (I am SPA for that).

• We must discuss the mainstream view and the minority view.
• We must make it clear which of the views is the majority view and which is not.
• In an article about a mainstream topic we would give a fringe view DUE mentioning, if any at all.
• In an article about a minority topic (=cold fusion) we can discuss the minority topic in great detail.
  • However, discussing a minority view in great detail, leaves the impression and accusation of POV pushing, ie giving the minority view more "flesh" than the majority view, ie undue WEIGHT.

I always thought I understood NPOV for fringe topics as: describe the majority view clearly and denote it as the majority view and describe the minority view clearly and denote it as the minority view.

It appears that other editors see it differently as: describe the majority view clearly and denote it as the majority view and describe clearly what the majority thinks of the minority view and don't give the minority view undue weight.

A NPOV article on a minority topic should have 4 "sorts" of content (i do not mean in form of blocks or sections):

• Describing what the majority (mainstream) view is
• Describing what the minority (fringe) view is
• Describing what the majority thinks of the minority view and its promoters
• Describing what the minority thinks of the majority view and its promoters

So provided that the content comes from reliable sources, adding content for these 4 parts is not POV pushing, it's trying to keep NPOV. So what is POV pushing anyway ?

To me it seems that "POV pushing" or let's call it reducing NPOV can be:

• deleting content for either one of these 4 sorts to "keep the WEIGHT"
• giving a prominent place to either of these 4 sorts
• describing or implying any of these 4 sorts as untrue

What do you think about this ? --POVbrigand (talk) 12:32, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

While nothing you say above is wrong, you do start off with a misconception about the policy... You state: "We must discuss the mainstream view and the minority view". Not quite right... The policy is that we must discuss all significant views... we don't have to discuss non-significant minority views (per WP:UNDUE) Of course this does not answer the question of whether a particular minority view is "significant" enough to mention or not. Blueboar (talk) 12:55, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree, like Jimbo said here tiny minority should not get mentioned. --POVbrigand (talk) 13:03, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Eliminating tiny minorities, the analysis is basically correct but with two caveats. (1) To correct an error, it is not POV-pushing to give a prominent place in minority-view articles to the two "sorts" of minority-view content per WP:UNDUE: "In articles specifically about a minority viewpoint, such views may receive more attention and space." (Obviously deletion may be used as a tool for significantly overweighted focus on aspects of the minority view inconsistent with the space given aspects of other minority views in their own articles; but there the policy is reliable sources instead.) (2) Application to any particular article (such as the article the original poster is probably involved in debate about) requires local consensus and application. You may also be interested in a related thread I just started, as per my comments at this page's talk you may not get much response here. JJB 16:43, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Your structure of:

• Describing what the majority (mainstream) view is
• Describing what the minority (fringe) view is
• Describing what the majority thinks of the minority view and its promoters
• Describing what the minority thinks of the majority view and its promoters

by its very nature gives equal time to minority views—as well as giving the minority view the last word. Many editors mistakenly believe (or advocate for their POV pushing purposes) that "he said-she said" constitutes NPOV content. It most certainly does not. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 16:54, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

I did not intend it as structure, I only classified the "sorts" of content. And yes, in an article about a minority view, the minority view can get much more attention than in an article about the majority view, where the minority view only get a WEIGHTED mentioning, if any at all. --POVbrigand (talk) 21:31, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

@JJB, thanks for noting - I should have written "giving a prominent place to one of the 4, but denying a similar prominent place to another", well that's a dead giveaway for not being NPOV. Of course grossy overdoing one "sort" is not ok. An article about a fringe topic that starts with: "OK, the mainstream doesn't believe this, but ..." is surely not the way to do it. --POVbrigand (talk) 21:57, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Nigel Farage

A poor article. I have particular NPOV issues with the 'Views on the Euro' and 'Quotes' section added yesterday in Nigel Farage, the UKIP leader. Both appear to be a list of editorially selected links to primary sources -please feel free to disagree. If I'm right, I'd like some help finding a suitable template to explain to other editors and advice on a better source. I can't possibly summarise 300 odd links. I added "primary source" to 'Views on the Euro,' removed by Special:Contributions/86.163.111.80 so I added 'Views on the Euro' note on the talk page. The template was once again removed as it referred to the whole article, not just the section.
I'd like to delete the quotes section and replace views on the Euro with a summary of a BBC Question time discussion as it shows his views and his opponents responses but this has disappeared. A youtube video is available from UKIP but has comments. Would you suggest I gave the BBC details of the broadcast omitting the UKIP link? Thanks in advance JRPG (talk) 21:04, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Resolved

Repeat problem editor injecting POV in article

I recently had to revert an edit by user:Lexlex at the Parents Television Council article for inserting POV against the PTC in the article. Lexlex has been inserting this original research, non-neutral claim for months now, dating back to January. Andrewlp1991 (talk) 00:48, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

I read the NYT article and the diff. I didn't read the WP-article. The NYT article seems a reliable source for showing that there is a POV against the PTC. NPOV means showing all significant views, so this view against should also be shown. There might be a (tiny) bit of synth or implying in the deleted content, but the general idea of the NYT's article should be visible in the WP-article somewhere. --POVbrigand (talk) 15:07, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Just because material is critical of the PTC does not make it POV-pushing nor should that by itself prevent it from being included. If the material is reliably sourced and an accurate reflection of what is in that source then it should be included. The goal is not to have an article entirely complimentary to the subject, the goal is to present, from a position of neutrality, all reliably referenced viewpoints. Autumnalmonk (talk) 12:32, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

I just read the NYT article and there is a problem with WP:OR here. user:Lexlex seems to have taken the number of contributers reported in the NYT article and the population of the U.S. (from some unknown source), made an independent calculation, and is reporting that information. The only thing attributable to the reference is the number of contributers in the parenthetical statement.

I would suggest that, rather than simply edit-waring and risking sanctions, that you use the article talk page and clearly and tactfully explain your objections as based on WP:OR. Autumnalmonk (talk) 14:17, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Andrewlp1991, I have requested you to post in talk so we and other editors can work this out - and am frankly perplexed by your actions here. Simply pulling significant content with no notice because you don't like it isn't something I've seen you do elsewhere. What gives? I am more than willing on good faith to dig into sources to make specific cite clarifications, etc. if you ask - especially since this article is actively tweaked by many and regularly vandalized, but give me time. Talk about it! My goal is to make this a balanced article. I started because it seemed only to parrot PTC marketing material and was overly glowing. With a source like the New York Times and others directly contradicting many claims, it seemed ripe for a re-write. I will be careful Andrew, and will ensure my sources match, but dialogue is required to make it work. Would you care to move this to the talk page and perhaps we can start again? Lexlex (talk) 03:47, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

WOT Services, Ltd.

On page WOT Services, Ltd. a user operating through 7 proxies tagged the article as 'advert'. Inappropriately so, in my opinion. The unknown user fails to sufficiently motivate his/her actions, and neglects my invitations to adjust any POV, so I reverted the tag several times. Please see for yourself, thank you. WeatherFug (talk) 11:57, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Just for the record, where was it that you invited the IP to "adjust any POV", besides edit warring with them in the article? You also seem to have neglected to inform them of this thread, which I will shortly correct. I don't believe that the user is operating through a proxy, the IPs appear to belong to an internet service provider. SpinningSpark 13:59, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

See Revision history of WOT Services, Ltd.[4] for my invitations to mr. ever-changing-Nepalese-IP (ok, it may be different from proxies but the obfuscating effect is kinda similar), I wrote "if you find any obvious promotional content, please do make an effort to rewrite it, if you can", "I'd rather see proof than loudmouthing", "Then please substantiate your allegations, if you can", and "Come on, rewrite any POV to NPOV, if you can.". Well, he didn't. And I happen to think that he does not really intend to do it, because he knows is unable to add any content to the article that meets Wikipedia standards. All he did is take advantage of this situation and copy his allegations and hyperlinks on Wikipedia again. I will answer mr. ever-changing-Nepalese-IP within a few days, I am busy in real life. Best regards WeatherFug (talk) 19:40, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Those are all edit summaries. The IP has posted on the talk page. You have not replied. It is really rather inappropriate to bring the matter to a noticeboard without even a cursory attempt at discussion. My apologies to the regulars on this board, I was asked on my talk page to intervene in an edit war and it has spilled over here. SpinningSpark 23:39, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Dear Spinningspark, my apologies if I didn't meet the etiquette, but I think it's useless to discuss unproven allegations. The only question here is a very simple one, concerning NPOV: does the article read as an advert, or not. Who is to decide, and where? WeatherFug (talk) 12:03, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

It is a PPPoE connection without static IP. It sounds as if anyone who disagrees with the WOT system is some kind of malicious spammer, who's views have no validity.

There are several sources of criticism cited in the talk page by other users. Some of those pages criticizing the WOT system have been downvoted as phishing sites because they take a critical view of myWOT. Take a look at the review forum (http://www.mywot.com/en/forum/5?sort=desc&order=Replies), especially some of the longer threads where site owners are asked absurd requests from the technically illiterate. There are examples of people with alternative medicine sites being flagged as phishing sites because users disagree with the content. Despite all of these available sources(listed on the talk page) of criticism, there are a measly 3 sentences listed under 'reviews'

"The rating tool has received favorable reviews in the press, sometimes with mildly critical remarks.[3][4][5] Some people vent more harsh criticism, saying the system is too susceptible to faulty results caused by targeted, malicious efforts of biased users. The company claims the system is extremely difficult to abuse and says that attempts usually get noticed.[6]"

This sounds like minimizing, and in Wikipedia terms, I would describe that as containing 'weasel words'. Other users posted critical sections to the article, which were removed. Those may or may not have been appropriately worded for the Wikipedia standard. I will not debate that. I am not an expert of Wikipedia, and I did not create those edits. It stands to reason that those edits would be replaced by a more appropriate summation of criticisms, instead of being deleted all together. That is, unless there are no valid criticisms of myWOT as it exists beyond reproach. For those reasons, I had flagged the article as sounding like a PR piece.

I admit my biases in this situation, and have no problems with stepping aside to let someone more objective examine the issue. I wonder if Weatherfug can say the same. It appears from where I stand that the user Weatherfug is towing the myWOT party line, or at least looking at the issue with an uncritical eye. Why was the article flagged as Advert in the past, if there are no concerns to be addressed? Are we to accept that fans of the service have decided that it is no longer a PR piece and a balanced representation?

Quoted from the talk page: "Another response to this article was posted here http://dukeo.com/mywot-web-of-trust-review-modern-web-totalitarism/ Convello 10:07, 3 September 2011 (UTC) With very little research, a lot of bad user-experiences and interesting in-depth reviews can be found and would probably need to be represented on MyWot page. An in-depth look at MyWot system illustrated with information taken directly from MyWot http://thundercloud.net/infoave/new/?p=818 Another review of MyWot http://www.foilball.com/mywot-com-another-false-review-site Complete blog dedicated to exposing MyWot flaws http://mywotlies.wordpress.com/ A response to this article exposing abusive ratings http://www.flounder.com/web_of_lies.htm An entrepreneur gets crushed by MyWot ratings http://thundercloud.net/infoave/new/?p=641 Convello 10:04, 4 September 2011 (UTC)"

Some of those are overly hyperbolic. However, it does not mean that no valid criticisms exist. It is telling that the only critical sections available involve a legal judgement that myWOT has won and the minimizing text I mentioned above. Wikipedia should not be a platform for this group to whitewash public opinion. Fans of the service should not take the final decision on the objectivity of the article.

Dear mr. ever-changing-Nepalese-IP , You have your answer at [5]. WeatherFug (talk) 20:17, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Article on Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh

I am asking for assistance from administrators to investigate the article on Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) for POV. The article on Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), a Hindu nationalist militant paramilitary movement, is denying that the movement's well-known violent political behaviour towards Muslims in India and mostly focuses on its philanthropic efforts towards Hindus, stating in the intro that all statements on its violence are "alleged" - meaning that they are contested. This is not supported by mainstream sources. Efforts in the talk page to address the controversial aspects of the RSS have failed, the discussion descended into angry rebuttals, assumption of bad faith in violation with Wikipedia policy, and character assassination against Wikipedia users. The Encyclopedia of War Crimes and Genocide on page 186 includes evidence compiled by the internationally-respected Human Rights Watch that says that during the 2002 Gujarat violence, "A plot to uproot the Muslim population of the state had been underway for some time: the RSS had circulated computerized lists of Muslim homes and businesses that were to be targeted by the mobs in advance." [6]. This has not been the first time that the RSS has incited violence against Muslims - it vouched for the demolition of Babri Masjid mosque in 1992 against fierce opposition by Muslims, resulting in the ancient mosque being torn down and eruption of violence between Hindus versus Muslims in which the RSS took part in anti-Muslim violence that resulted in the Indian government banning the RSS. The RSS has claimed that non-Hindus - including Muslims - are not considered by the RSS to be citizens of India and rejects any citizenship rights for non-Hindus, because it claims that the only "true" citizens of India are Hindus.--R-41 (talk) 16:07, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

The RSS is a highly controversial movement in India, for instance there are multiple books by scholars on fascism such as Stanley Payne, Walter Laqueur and others who investigated the RSS' connection with fascism - such as the former RSS leader's praising of Hitler's "purification" of Germany into ethnic German-only citizenship that he claimed should be a model for India to become a Hindu-only citizenship, as well as investigations that have uncovered that the RSS was inspired by Italian Fascist youth organizations. It is well-known to have participated in planned violence against India's Muslims, this needs to be stated in the intro, and material outright denying this needs to be removed from the article.--R-41 (talk) 16:07, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Arana-Southern Treaty

The article Arana-Southern Treaty is about a treaty that ended the Anglo-French blockade of the Río de la Plata, a XIX century conflict between Argentina and the United Kingdom. Although the conflict was not related to the Falkland Islands, some historians think that it may influence it.

The article includes several external links at the end. Cambalachero removed them because, with the exception of the first one, and the "Historia de las Relaciones Exteriores Argentinas..." one (which Cambalachero turned into a footnote) the others are merely generic links to "history of the falklands" pages, which do not contain a single mention of the treaty. Cambalachero thinks that such pages go against WP:ELNO item 13 (same as if we include generic pages of Argentine history). However, the author of the article, Nigelpwsmith, insists to restore them. I would appreciate uninvolved opinions.

Cambalachero insists on claiming that the above Treaty was derogated. He provided a link to a foreign history page provided by the Argentine Government, but he is unable to provide any proof that the Treaty was derogated. The Treaty was added to Wikisource and is still in effect. It has been quoted by numerous sources as proof that the Argentine Government acquiesced on British sovereignty of the Falkland Islands. I believe that Cambalachero is making alterations without any validation or corroboration to support the Argentine position which is untenable. I have repeatedly asked him to desist from making these alterations and even suggested that if he feels strongly about his points he should alter the Argentine Wikipedia only, but not the English version.

He has included some interesting information which improves the overall article. However, his actions recently have been nothing more than unsupported vandalism to support a political and nationalistic point of view which can not be validated or supported by external documents in the UK. In fact, I do have documents in the UK which support the claims I've made. http://www.mediafire.com/view/?c4mn3cd8sb4mc1i

Title: "False Falklands history at the United Nations: How Argentina misled the UN in 1964 - and still does". Cambalachero questions whether this is a neutral and unbiased document? He agrees that there is Argentine nationalism towards the islands, but there is British nationalism as well.

Yes the reference does present the facts from the British point of view and the view of the Islanders, but it highlights the deliberate lies put forward from the Argentine side. User Cambalachero is admitting the Argentine nationalism towards the islands and in the documents. The British documents show a different version of the truth. The page was added to Wikipedia the Arana-Southern Treaty, because it shows a glaring omission by not including the history of the treaty and what it says about the legal position with respect to Argentina's claims. However, nothing which Camalachero has provided shows any proof that the treaty was derogated in any way. Especially not by the British Government, who included it in their released papers. He makes unsupportable claims that it was when it was not and then tries to say that at least he has external links - when those external links are biased and incomplete, belonging as they do to the Argentine Government (or rather an Argentine educational establishment).Nigelpwsmith (talk) 19:57, 15 May 2012 (UTC) I re-iterate, there is no proof that this treaty was derogated by the British. I accept that the Treaty was not added to Wikisource by the British Government, but it was added from Volume 37 of the British and foreign state papers - a verifiable source. Nigelpwsmith (talk) 18:59, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

I accept that both sides to this dispute have strong nationalistic claims. However, Cambalachero has to provide proof that the Treaty was derogated by Britain - otherwise his alterations are just unsupportable claims. Even the Argentine Government source does not show that the Treaty was derogated by the British. Merely that diplomats discussed it. Diplomats discuss a lot of things, but it is Governments that make pronouncements on Treaties and this treaty is still in effect.

As neither side is willing to agree on the point of the derogation, I would like to make the following proposal to Wikipedia. Either Cambalachero provides the proof that the British Goverment derogated the treaty, or the paragraph on derogation is removed altogether and the document locked.

Can I also suggest that Cambalachero creates a separate page titled the 'Hotham Mission Saint Georges (August 1852)' and reference that to the Argentine source and remove the Derogation section of the Arana-Southern Treaty.Nigelpwsmith (talk) 20:21, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Bruce L. Edwards

Talk: Bruce L. Edwards

This article was created and has been maintained unimpeded for 5 years by Aslandad, who is Bruce L. Edwards per: Aslandad "It is a personal photo of myself."Part of the WP article is copied verbatim from this website: Bottom of page: "Bruce L. Edwards is Professor of English and Africana Studies…" I'm sure he doesn't know he is violating any policies as the bottom of the WP article shows that he is transparent about writing his own article with the heading: What I am Interested in Besides C.S. Lewis. Didn't seem to be any point in posting on the talk page, as there are no entries there, so in case someone here is interested and has time to address any issues, I'm posting it here. Thanks, Agadant (talk) 02:09, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

BTW:I ran across it while researching for the Joy Davidman article, but don't want to get personally involved with making changes to the article, as I have used his work as one of the references. Other points: The Bruce L. Edwards article uses no references and has a link farm for External links. Agadant (talk) 12:12, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

He certainly seems notable enough to have an article... and as an article, it is not actually all that bad (although it does need sources - I have tagged for that). I have cut the personalized "What I am interested in" section (that belongs on his user page, not in the bio article). Blueboar (talk) 17:58, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Svan people

See

1. Talk:Svan people#source (+Talk:Svan people#Ethnic groups)
2. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#user:GeorgianJorjadze reported by User:PlatonPskov (Result: ) and
3. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:PlatonPskov reported by User:Kober (Result: ).
4. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Geopolitical, ethnic, and religious conflicts #Svan people — Preceding unsigned comment added by PlatonPskov (talk • contribs) 18:28, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

User GeorgianJorjadze (and Kober) they refuse to constructive discussion, GeorgianJorjadze waging a war of edits without explanation (other than as a game with rules: that there is no consensus. However, I have arguments. They - no.)

I need help! --PlatonPskov (talk) 18:22, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Achieving NPOV on Vietnamese article with different American and Vietnamese views

Sorry if this is not the right board. I am seeking assistance in resolving a NPOV dispute on Vietnamese article about the organization Viet Tan. The equivalent English achieved NPOV by stating both that the Vietnamese government considers Viet Tan to be a terrorist organization, while the US government does not. However, the Vietnamese version only states the view of the Vietnamese government. Attempts to rectify this with many verifiable sources continue to be completely reverted. AFAIK, paragraphs with references should not simply be reverted to achieve NPOV, but instead should be modified instead. This NPOV has been raised multiple times on the corresponding talk page already to no avail. I couldn't find a Vietnamese version of this noticeboard. What are you recommendations? Jaydeek (talk) 14:45, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

The different language versions of Wikipedia are separate entities, with different policies and guidelines... and those of us here on the English version have no say in what happens on the Vietnamese version. They could have a vastly different NPOV policy than we do (or even no NPOV policy at all). Blueboar (talk) 17:44, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. Wow, that is surprising. I thought that the policies are the same for all languages. Thanks. Jaydeek (talk) 01:22, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

They do have a lot of commonality and as far as I can see the Vietnamese one is about equivalent in its policies. But yes about the only overlap in the various versions as far as control is concerned is that User:Jimbo Wales has a page on the English Wikipedia. The Wikimedia Foundation is in overall control but have devolved everyday running to the individual versions, it would have to be some common fairly bad overall problem or some good new idea to engage their attention. You'll need to fix any problems within the Vietnamese Wikipedia itself rather than looking elsewhere for content issues like this. Dmcq (talk) 08:55, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Disabled Veterans National Foundation

• Disabled Veterans National Foundation (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This article looked terrible, had several single-purpose accounts, and has been in the news recently. I did a massive cleanup, which was reverted by one of the SPAs. I started a talk page discussion, but I'd love some oversight to confirm I made a net improvement. tedder (talk) 19:24, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Comparison of rugby league and rugby union

Hi. There is a disagreement on the neutrality of the lead in the Comparison of rugby league and rugby union article. There are a few issues, but the major one revolves around the use of a quote:

"Thirteen-man rugby league has shown itself to be a faster, more open game of better athletes than the other code. Rugby union is trying to negotiate its own escape from amateurism, with some officials admitting that the game is too slow, the laws too convoluted to attract a larger TV following."

— Ian Thomsen, The New York Times, 28 October 1995, [1]

Some editors are claiming that the use of this quote in the lead violates WP:Lead and WP:NPOV. Another editor is saying that it is a reliable, third-party source that summarises the article, so it should be in the lead. The full discussion can be found at Talk:Comparison of rugby league and rugby union#Quote in the intro. It would be good to get some opinions from people who are not part of either the rugby union or rugby league Wikiprojects. AIRcorn (talk) 08:48, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

I've played both codes. The quote is undue weight in the lead, and in any case is 17 years old: much has changed in that time. - Sitush (talk) 08:54, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

I've also played both codes, but that could hardly be less relevant. As you would expect with an article of this title, the lead deals with issues such as rugby union's amateur history as opposed to rugby league's professionalism, the differences in gameplay between the two codes and the result on their physical demands, as well as from a spectators' perspective. This quote (from a source whose neutrality is beyond question) therefore seems remarkably at home there. The date also appears alongside it for all to see. According to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view: "Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources."--Jeff79 (talk) 09:05, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Haven't played either! The quote is interesting and relevant, but also out of date. It should be introduced with something like "in the 1990s one commentator said...". Shouldn't be in the lead. No quotes in the lead. Should be in a paragraph later on. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:33, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) My point was disclosure, given that I am not a member of either of the projects that are referred to. I can well imagine what the article covers but have no intention of looking at it because it will be the usual Us vs. Them palaver. I do not deny that the quote has may have a place in the article, but it has no place in the lead section - and that is apparently the bone of contention here. It is an op-ed. - Sitush (talk) 09:35, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Do we have to report a false claim as true from a certain POV

[7]Argentina claims as a "fact" that a civilian population was expelled from the Falkland Islands in 1833 but the contemporary historical record shows this claim to be false. I have an editor claiming that to meet WP:NPOV we have to state the Argentine claims as a true fact "from the Argentine POV". At present the article merely notes the Argentine claim but notes that show this is contradicted by contemporary records (both British and Argentine btw). Wee Curry Monster talk 11:43, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

"contemporary historical record" from 1833 needs to be interpreted, even if it is argentine records. So when you state that contemporary historical record shows the claim to be true you are leaving out the question of who it is that is stating that this is the case. Presumably current pro-Argentinian experts makes no such claim?

The fact that we are reporting is "...Argentine population that Argentina claims was expelled after the re-establishment of British rule in 1833". Which is an uncontested, and easily sourced, fact, ie. nobody is claiming that Argentina is not claiming this. NPOV requires us to report all significant views, and the Argentine view is certainly germane to this discussion, so we can not leave it out. Taemyr (talk) 12:06, 24 May 2012 (UTC)