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October 23

United States presidential election, 2012

I thought that I was fairly well-versed in U.S. election laws and procedures. However, something in our article on United States presidential election, 2012 puzzle me. In the section on the candidates from other than Republican or Democratic parties, it lists which states the candidates will be on the ballots (Candidate Ballot Access). Then it lists Write-In Candidate Access for each of these candidates. It has always been my impression that write-in votes can be for anyone, and no specific prior "access" is necessary. In fact, there have been times when I have cast a write-in vote, and later I checked the official vote totals at the election office. My write-in votes were counted, even though the people I voted for had no prior access or anything designated before the election. (Yes, I am certain they were my votes because when I checked my specific precinct, the candidate's name was there, followed by the number "1" under the vote total.) So what is this Write-In Candidate Access referred to in the article?    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 05:16, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Could it just mean that those are states which allow write-in candidates for President, in the general election ? StuRat (talk) 05:22, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Not necessarily. The states that allow write-in balloting may or may not require that the candidate file in advance to even be counted. Michael J's state apparently does not require this. Alaska does. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 05:28, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

(I am in Pennsylvania, by the way.) So then what happens in Alaska, for instance, if a vote is written-in for someone who has not pre-filed? There is no way to prevent people from voting for whomever they want to. Is the vote just not counted? (That doesn't seem fair.)    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 05:39, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

The linked document states that "the votes will be counted for each individual write-in candidate if the candidate has filed a Letter of Intent with the Division of Elections as required...". So I'm taking that to mean that the votes just aren't counted. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 05:45, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

In California, I know that write-in votes for non-registered candidates are not counted. I think to register as a write-in candidate (for president) you have to have a slate of electors, which does make sense after a fashion — suppose enough people did actually write in someone who didn't have electors. Whom would California appoint as electors, then? --Trovatore (talk) 05:47, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

As a practical matter, since write-in candidates almost never win, they probably don't go thru the effort to try to read all the names and figure out who they meant, as long as the total number of write-ins is less than the winner. In those rare cases where there are more write-ins, then they have to read each one. At that point, it certainly would be helpful to have a list of possible names to compare each ballot with, to determine who they meant. So, those states that require that write-ins register would indeed toss out all other write-in ballots. StuRat (talk) 05:50, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Is that really the case? It would seem in cases when the candidate has complied with whatever requirements (like registering to be write-in candidate), votes for them have to be counted, otherwise it wouldn't be possible to report how many people actually voted for that candidate in the final tally (amongst other things) which I presume is the norm in most US states as it is in most of the world. (It seems to be for California United States presidential election in California, 2008.) The only way I could see this being an exception would be if the law actually says it's not necessary to count and report them unless the total number or percent/proportion exceeds something rather then just some adhoc practice. Nil Einne (talk) 07:46, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

I'd say the reverse. The law likely states that the officials must determine the count for the winner and perhaps the 2nd place count. Unless it also states that every vote be reported, then this requirement does not exist. Considering that states without a requirement for write-ins would have thousands of write-ins with one or two votes each, it seems absurd to require election officials to determine and report each of them. StuRat (talk) 14:25, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

That seems a bit strange, I haven't heard of anyone having an election that doesn't require you to actually report who was voted for, particularly for official or listed candidates. (In particular, even when cuttoffs exist, they are usually fairly low way lower then 50%-1.) And I don't really see what's so hard about reporting write ins. For states which require registration of write-ins, simply determine if the write-in is a registered candidate. If not, then it can be safely ignored.

For states which allow them without (pre-)registration, then simply report what's written in. The fact you have no idea who Tom Kelvin or Jane Leah are doesn't necessarily matter unless you actually have to worry about appointing elector for either of them (in which case as highlighted above and below, you have other problems like who the heck are going to be the electors even if you can work out who Tom Kelvin is), you are still reporting who was voted for. The fact the Tom Kelvin, Thomas Kelvin and Thamas Kelvln were actually votes for the same person also doesn't necessarily matter to you, as highlighted in the Pennsylvania case if people want to handle something like that they likely need to work with you or by themselves, if you report the votes to the best of your ability you're still reporting who was voted for. There may be a lot of different people but since the number of votes is small even if proportionally you spent 200 times longer counting and reporting a vote for a write in (really the counting won't be that much longer, the extra time would primarily come from needing to write each candidate in your report) as you do for the Republican/Democratic candidate you aren't actually spending that much time. (You may be using a lot more paper.)

But anyway you seem to be partially correct on the earlier point. I only looked at those without a registration requirement but in the Pennsylvania case it's even more complicated then the earlier link suggests. Although writeins are allow not all countries even bother to count them let alone report them [1] (the state itself only seems to report 4 candidates I presume with a cutoff around 0.1% or something [2] although perhaps you can get a more complete tally somewhere [3] has one (including writeins counted but not individualised) although I'm not sure if they got the stuff besides the write-in info from the county data or the state themselves. I'm not entirely sure how Pennsylvania handles the theoretical case when a write in gets enough voted to have elector/s, it sounds to me like they have no provision if the counties themselves aren't even always reporting the total number of writeins. Edit: Actually it turns per the FM link below Pennsylvania did report some of the writeins based on those counties which reported them, but they didn't do all (it sounds like they they did something similar to NH in deciding who to report but chose even fewer people).

Delaware state reports the number [4] but I couldn't find any evidence even the counties themselves report who was voted for.

Alabama does actually give tallys for the writeins [5], you can see amusingly enough GWB received a vote for the Alabama board of education 6.

Iowa is an interesting case, the official information doesn't seem to mention write-ins at all unless I'm not understanding it correctly but it seems the counties do need to report each write-in candidate [6]. (Per the blog [7], Iowa does recommend candidates need to work with their voters to insure consistency in names.)

New Hampshire seem to partially report the individual candidates [8] (original page is broken for the write-ins). I'm not sure what criteria they use to decide, it may be a minimum number of votes (the candidate with the fewest had 13) although more likely I think they only listed those when they had some idea who the person was, I'm also not sure and couldn't be finding out if the counties report the actual names including those listed as 'other'.

New Jersey doesn't seem to report writeins at all (not even tally) at the state level [9] no idea what they do at the county level but the blog [10] said they would only tabulate it if there were enough to win I'm not sure if that means on an individual or overall level.

I was getting bored by this stage and probably going to stop but from the New Jersey search did come across [11] which has info on which state releases what. (It sounds like Delaware may actually release info eventually, whether they did in 2008 and if so where you can find it I don't know.) BTW that blog suggests you may be partially mistaken, a number of these adhoc practices appear to be questionable under state law, it's just that no one has ever bought a lawsuit about it, in some cases ballot access is easy enough that anyone who is going to want to sue (because votes for them were not properly counted or reported) is unlikely to actually be a write-in candidate. (I note that the earlier blog also suggested in a few cases where the state either said they won't count write-ins at all there was some question in the blog of the legality of the practice.)

The other states which are supposed to allow write-ins without registration are Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont, Wyoming. Some of these explicitly mention the need for some sort of paperwork after the election if the candidate wins (I think), but I presume this doesn't affect reporting. It's possible I missed some others, particularly if I misunderstood something about the need for paperwork after the election to mean (pre-)registration, it may pay to check my list with that from the FrankMooreforPresident08 site. Of course as you suggested it's also possible a state despite requiring registration of some sort for writeins won't bother to count and report all of them anyway as strange as that may seem to those unfamiliar to the oddities of US elections.

Nil Einne (talk) 00:57, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm also suspicious of absentee ballots. If they clearly won't influence the outcome, do they really bother to count them ? StuRat (talk) 03:51, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't know how accurate and current it is but see http://writein2008.blogspot.com/ which shows varying requirements in each state, if write-in candidates are allowed at all. In many states you must have signed certificates from the people you want as electors. See http://writein2008.blogspot.dk/search/label/Pennsylvania for the apparent mess in your own state. PrimeHunter (talk) 06:04, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

OK. It does not surprise me that my home state has a messed-up voting law. If I recall correctly from four years ago, it doesn't list the office as "President" but something like "Presidential Electors for...", then there are the five or six named candidates, and a blank line for a write-in. I do know that in my county, they are quite diligent in accounting for spelling variations among write-in votes; I can't speak for the other 66 counties. Anyway, then I guess in Pennsylvania, in theory someone could win without being declared. Then I imagine that person, if he or she accepts, would have to name Electors. I do know that write-in winners for local office (yes, it does happen on that level) must file the same paperwork that candidates on the ballot had to file pre-election, or else forfeit the office. . . . . . . Well, I thank you all. My confusion arose from my residing in a state with very old laws. But I think I'll stick with them. Thanks again.    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 09:17, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

A fairly related question, aside from the US, are there any places which have separate voting laws for different jurisdictions? In my country, the voting procedures are the same for all places no matter what province. Is the practice of having separate voting laws per state unique to the US? Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 10:21, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

The United States is fairly unique in having different state laws govern a national election; however, most federal countries have electoral laws that vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, for elections at the sub-national level. In Canada, for example, some provinces have adopted elections at a fixed date, and others not; financing laws vary from province to province as well. --Xuxl (talk) 12:18, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

There are no national elections in the U.S. That is, there are zero elections which are done on a national level, officially. To state it again: among the entire population of the United States, exactly and no more than zero offices are elected on a national level. Every single election is done by the states according to state law. 538 people do vote for the President, but the election of those 538 people is not specified in national law, and each state is allowed to elect (or appoint!) their electors in any manner they see fit. That's why the U.S. works the way it does: the sovereignty of the states is such that each state gets to have its own election laws, and so long as those laws don't directly violate the constitution, they can do whatever they want. --Jayron32 16:52, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

I think we get that, but there is still a "national election" in the sense that the entire country votes for (members of the Electoral College who choose) the President and Vice President on the 1st Tuesday in November every leap year. Is it possible that Arkansas, say, could have its presidential election on a different date from all the other states? Or does it every 2 years instead of every 4 years? Or only once every 10 years? I seriously doubt they have such options. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 19:56, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

[Not necessarily the first Tuesday. It's the first Tuesday after the first Monday Your Username 21:42, 23 October 2012 (UTC)]

Thanks for the correction. I was getting confused with the Melbourne Cup. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 12:13, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

They could not do it every two years because their electoral votes would not be received. There is a Federal law requiring all states to have their popular votes for electors for president and vice president on the day after the first Monday in November. At one time, there was no such law, then there was a decreasing list of states which voted early, and now we have dull uniformity.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:13, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Not total uniformity. Now different states have different time ranges in which they allow early voting. Duoduoduo (talk) 20:22, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

So, there is a federal (national) law requiring the states to hold a certain election, and on what dates and at what frequency. How the states individually go about conducting that election may be their own affair, but I would not characterise that situation as "there are zero elections which are done on a national level, officially". -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 20:48, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

The national law determining the date of the Presidential Election only mandates the date which the election must be completed by. One state, Oregon, doesn't even have in-person voting (see Elections in Oregon), so "election day" is just the date when the ballots need to arrive at the election office. Also, it still bears repeating that people don't vote for the President and Vice President. Also, many states do "Early Voting" now; in some states the expected turn-out before election day is expected to exceed the turn out on that day. The only dates which is important is the date when the votes are opened and certified in Congress (see Electoral_College_(United_States)#Joint_session_of_Congress_and_the_contingent_election, which is usually some time in December, to accommodate the possibility that the election could end up in the House of Representatives; the House of Representatives would need to choose the President before the Inauguration Day (January 20). Since Congress is inaugurated on January 3, that gives them three weeks to elect the President if they needed to. So, the election itself is in Early November so that there's enough time for recounts if needed. The date was set in a time before electronics (or even high speed transportation), so there was a real need to have the time to do all of the counting, traveling, voting, and recounting necessary to elect the President according to the terms of the Constitution, and there was just never any impetus to change it to a later time. But the fact still remains that other than the date itself, and laws regarding the franchise (as in, who is allowed to vote, and what the state can or cannot do to restrict the vote) the actual procedures of the elections are left to the states, including how the states choose their Presidential Electors. Until fairly recently, many states printed the actual names of the electors on the ballot, I think a few still do. Some states didn't print the name of the Presidential Candidate at all, just the slates of electors. Also, the national law doesn't even require a popular vote to choose the Electors. In the early decades of the U.S., most states selected their electors via the State Legislatures, and there was no popular election. The election day in those cases was just the day when the Legislature voted on whom the electors would be. The national law still doesn't require a state-wide popular vote, though every state holds one. Please read Article_Two_of_the_United_States_Constitution#Clause_2:_Method_of_choosing_electors, which has never been repealed or amended by any later amendment. That every state legislature has chosen to use a state-wide poll to determine the slate of electors isn't anything codified in the national law in any way. --Jayron32 04:49, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

All that detail was encapsulated in my "How the states individually go about conducting that election may be their own affair".

The fact remains that an individual state cannot choose not to have a presidential election at all, because there is a federal law that requires it to hold one. That federal law is just as much a part of the overall election scenario as any state's particular electoral arrangements. The US presidential election is not solely a federal matter, and not solely a state matter either. It's a joint undertaking.

Also, any_chance_of providing_links_without_underscores_in_future? Long_ones_are_very_hard_to_read. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 07:33, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

As_soon_as_they_stop_replacing_spaces_within_URLs_with_them. --Jayron32 11:55, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Why not just copy the actual title, rather than going anywhere near the URL? That's what I always do. (Mind you, I hate underscores with an ever-burning passion and I would cut my grandmother's arms and legs off before ever using one; except as above.) -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 12:13, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I do normally, but for section links it takes two pastes instead of one. I'm lazy. But point taken, I'll go through the trouble of copy-pasting both the article and section titles separately and typing the # sign. Your piece of mind is worth three or so extra key strokes. --Jayron32 16:46, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Packs vobiskum. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 21:20, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

While there is no actual requirement for popular presidential elections, the requirement in the Constitution that the federal government guarantee that the states have a republican form of government probably means that whoever picks the electors be responsible to the people. It can't be done by the unelected Duke of Delaware (sorry, Joe). In 2000, in the legal battle in Florida, the legislature, as I recall, was quite prepared to pick electors on its own (the Bush slate) if the court battle hadn't ended. That of course would have meant another legal battle ...--Wehwalt (talk) 12:25, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

See my post above in particular [12] and [13]. It sounds like in the Pennsylvania case not all counties even bother to report writeins even though they're supposed to and the state can't force them to. As I highlighted above and by the first link here, it seems it's not uncommon for states which don't require registration to not bother to report writeins in the state tally although in some cases the legality is apparently questionable although possibly only a candidate who received a vote which wasn't counted (rather then a voter who's vote wasn't counted) can test this. (As I also mentioned above, per the earlier blog it sounds like the legality of denying writeins in some states, e.g. Arkansas [14] is also questionable.) Nil Einne (talk) 00:57, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

(I started this whole mess, I might as well go on.)This is OR: Perhaps many Pennsylvania counties do not report every write-in, but I know for certain my home county does. On election night, a printout from every voting district is posted in the courthouse, with the names of the candidates on the ballot followed by the number of votes received. Then comes a line-by-line listing of every write-in vote cast in that precinct. When the official count is done later in the week, the election officials review the write-ins, combining those they are reasonably certain refer to the same person, and leaving all of the others separate. These are entered onto the official data sheet and submitted to Harrisburg. As I noted, the write-ins are never significant when it comes to state/national elections, but they do on occasion become relevant in local races. ... I am fascinated by this discussion, because it stuns me that some (apparently most) states tell voters that even if they vote for a qualified person, their vote might not be counted. If I cast an honest ballot, I expect every name on it to be counted. That is only fair.    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 07:35, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I served as an officer of election for several years in the early 90s for the money (not much). In filling out the official returns sheet (posted outside the door to the polling place) we did count write ins. That being said, the precinct return sheet and the official, statewide return are two different things and I don't think the write ins made it that far.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:25, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

What do you call this style of packaging...

What is the proper industry term for the kind of retail packaging where the product is placed in a plastic bag with a piece of printed cardboard folded over the top and stapled - with a hole punched in it for hanging in a store? Can't find a Wikipedia article about it, none of the links in the {{packaging}} template even mention it or have a photo. SteveBaker (talk) 14:38, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Header card packaging? 1.23 M results on Google. 20.137.2.50 (talk) 15:03, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

How many horses and bayonets in the US military in 1917 and today?

In the third US Presidential debate, Obama countered Romney's accusation that the US has fewer ships than in 1917 by mentioning the smaller number of "horses and bayonets." The comment on horses is understandable, since cavalry units were discontinued in WW2, but the comment on bayonets is puzzling if taken literally. Per the Wikipedia articles the M7 bayonet is used with the M16 rifle and the M4A1 carbine by US Army and Navy forces, while the M9 bayonet is also used by the Army. US Marines use the OKC-3S bayonet. Does each US military rifle at present still get issued with a bayonet to the person expected to carry it for possible combat use? How would the number of US military bayonets compare to the maximum issued in 1917? The number of active and reserve US military personnel now is 2.3 million to 3 million in different places in the United States Armed Forces article, while World War I says the US drafted 2.8 million men in WW1 (in addition to the small prewar military). But in WW1, soldiers drilled with sticks due to a lack of actual weapons in mid 1917, suggesting a lack of stockpiled weapons. If the comparison had been to the small peacetime military of 1916, it seems clear that the US has more now. There have been effective bayonet charges, at least by UK units, in recent wars, so it is not just a utility tool or a ceremonial relic. So as a good encyclopedic factcheck, how do the bayonet numbers for the US military for 1917 and 2012 compare? As for horses, presently there appear to be 47 horses and 2 mules in the only official US cavalry unit (ceremonial, exhibitions, parades), the "Horse cavalry detachment" of the 1st Cavalry. How many did the 1917 US military have? (Likely tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands, used not only for cavalry, but to pull wagons and artillery). Edison (talk) 17:13, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

It's got to be fairly rare that the enemy gets close enough to bayonet, in modern warfare. Thus, the added weight, risk of accidentally injury, cost, etc., must be considered in this light. On the plus side, perhaps the bayonet can be used for other things, like cutting through wire. StuRat (talk) 17:31, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Soldiers are still trained to use them, but they are almost never used and are made to be more effectively used as a combat knife instead of a makeshift spear anyway. Because of this, the army has all but replaced bayonet training with calisthenics. The last time US soldiers went on an actual bayonet charge was 1951 (even if a couple of other nations have found use for it). - [15].

The bayonet's use today: minimal, almost extinct. Glancing over the articles on the OKC-3S bayonet and M9 bayonet, there's maybe 500,000 out there, and they're being used as knives.

The bayonet's use in World War I: "commonplace," even if the use in combat was starting to decline. I can't find actual numbers, but 4,743,826 Americans fought in World War I, and it's safer to assume more of them were carrying bayonets than not. Just because they were drilling without bayonets does not mean a lack of bayonets: their use in the field was more important, and it's not a bad idea to train with a safe blunt stick.

That'd mean bayonets today are about a tenth (maybe a fifth) of what they were in 1917. Obama's point that there are fewer horses and bayonets stands up. If someone (*glare at Dad's co-workers*) wishes to completely lie about what he said, and pretend he said no horses and bayonets, it doesn't stand up, but that's not what he said. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:57, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

My local news just reported the current number as 600,000 bayonets. More than you'd think. StuRat (talk) 03:46, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

And the figure I gave was "maybe 500,000." In comparison to the number used in WWI, its really not that much of a difference. Ian.thomson (talk) 14:01, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Anyone know, in recent US conflicts, how many enemy soldiers/terrorists were killed with a knife? Attached to the end of a gun or otherwise. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:52, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I'd associate that with special forces (Navy Seals, Green Berets, etc.), since you can kill silently with a knife, ideal for covert actions. However, the victim's mouth must be covered while they die, and an attached bayonet would put you out of range for that. StuRat (talk) 03:56, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

How about a 2 person assault: you hold him, covering his mouth, while I lunge at him with my bayonet equipped rifle?( I'll try not to push too hard). A Vietnam era US soldier said to me "If I'm close enough to stick him, I'm close enough to shoot him." On the other hand, another said "If you're out of ammo, a bayonet charge would be more satisfying than begging for mercy." If the US military has 2.3 million to 3 million actives and reserves, and only 600,000 bayonets, how many rifles do they have? Do 1.7 million soldiers fight with a humongous artillery piece, a tank, a plane, a sub, a keyboard, or their command presence and bare hands rather than a rifle? The US Marines say every one is a a rifleman, and the Air Force, Navy and Army claim they train personnel for base defense. Have they no warehouses with sufficient rifles to equip at least all active duty personnel with rifles? Do they lack sufficient bayonets to provide one per rifle? Edison (talk) 04:31, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

This ABC blog states the Army has 419,155, while the Marines are holding onto 195,334. It goes on to say that "bayonets had not been issued to soldiers deploying in Iraq and Afghanistan", though "one soldier said they were available if needed." Clarityfiend (talk) 06:41, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Bayonets are usually saved for those deep kimchi moments when you've run out of ammunition. Jarheads still train with them. This is instructive. Zoonoses (talk) 04:54, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

On the issue of horses, their use by cavalry units constituted only a small proportion of their total numbers; they were a major form of transportation up until World War II. --Xuxl (talk) 08:54, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Two related points:

1) The strength of an army was sometimes stated in a figure-of-speech as (so many thousand) bayonets (a metonymy?); "I fear three newspapers more than a hundred thousand bayonets.”[16] "England Holding Ireland With Two Hundred Thousand Bayonets"[17] are the first examples that I could quickly find. Personally, I certainly concluded that President Obama was using "horses and bayonets" as a rhetorical figure to mean the total strength of the US Army. If this is the case, then it wasn't a good tactic, as it seems to have puzzled everybody else.

2) The US Army in the late 19th and early 20th centuries was miniscule in comparison to the immense armies of Europe. "by 1917 the Federal army had only expanded to around 121,000, with the National Guard numbering 181,000". Compare that with 2,200.000 mobilized by Germany in 1914, 1,125,000 by France and even Britain's "contemptible little army" managed 711,000.[18] So, Obama was correct if he intended to state that the US Army is many times stronger now than it was in 1917. The 2010 total was about 600,000 Army, 360,000 National Guard and 205,000 Army Reserve although I understand that there have been substantial cuts. Alansplodge (talk) 13:39, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I concluded that the President saying that the US has fewer battleships (which is why this retort came up) because modern naval warfare has made the battleship nearly obsolete, much like the automatic rifle and the gasoline engine have pretty much nullified the use of melee combat and horses. I didn't take it as a jab at the power of the standing army. Obviously, there are exceptions to soldiers using bayonets (as illustrated below), but its use has declined greatly in the last 80 years. Livewireo (talk) 22:01, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

And you may be interested in a paragraph found in our Bayonet article; "British forces in Afghanistan have used bayonets on numerous occasions. In 2009, Lieutenant James Adamson, aged 24, of the Royal Regiment of Scotland was awarded the Military Cross for a bayonet charge whilst on a tour of duty in Afghanistan: after shooting one Taliban fighter dead Adamson had run out of ammunition when another enemy appeared. Adamson immediately charged the second Taliban fighter and bayoneted him. In September 2012, Lance Corporal Sean Jones of The Princess of Wales's Regiment was awarded the Military Cross for his role in a bayonet charge which took place in October 2011." Alansplodge (talk) 13:56, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

The importance of being eco friendly

Why is it imporant for construction to be enviornmentally friendly? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.94.192.6 (talk) 19:12, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

For much the same reasons as any human activity needs to be eco-friendly. You'll discover those reasons when you do the research for your homework. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 19:42, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

See environmentally friendly.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 07:40, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Think of how important construction is as an economic sector. If it is not environmentally conscious, how much damage can be done? Itsmejudith (talk) 16:00, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

See Environmental Impact Of Building Construction Can Now Be Predicted by Science Daily.

—Wavelength (talk) 16:25, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

EGGciting change

BLUE FRONT AMAZON PARROT

MY QUESTION IS WHY WOULD THE BIRD START LAYING EGGS WHEN IT HAS'NT DONE IT IN THE LAST 15 YRS. AND IT HAS NOT BEEN BRED WITH A MALE BIRD? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.12.253.66 (talk) 19:51, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

I added a title (hey, if you don't add a title yourself, you take your chances). :-) StuRat (talk) 20:17, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Also, many people consider using all caps here to be a capital offense. StuRat (talk) 20:18, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

I Googled "parrot not bred laid egg" and found many articles confirming that parrots may do this, and it's not unusual for it to start suddenly after many years. It seems that when an unmated pet bird begins to lay eggs (which will be infertile), it's a sign that its hormones are telling it to breed. Most of the articles suggest that it can be bad for a bird's health to keep laying unnecessary eggs, so it's important how an owner reacts when their pet begins to do this. I'm not going to link to the articles here, or repeat any of the advice in them, but if you can't find the answers you need by searching online or in a reference book then you should consider consulting a qualified person, such as a veterinarian, to ensure you get the right advice on managing your bird's health at this time. - Karenjc 21:23, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Has there been a change in its diet, location, exposure to daylight, social interactions? What else has changed? μηδείς (talk) 00:48, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Our canary started laying eggs after it established a social relationship with a guinea pig in a nearby cage. As always a veterinarian is a better source of info than random people on the internet, and contributors to the Ref Desk are specifically not permitted to provide medical or veterinary advice. Edison (talk) 04:36, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

If you've got a canary that was impregnated by a guinea pig, that's front-page news. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:35, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

If you've got a canary that was impregnated, that's front-page news. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:06, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Purely platonic, but they clearly vocalized to each other for hours.Edison (talk) 21:45, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Guinea pigs can sing? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:22, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Of course. On-stage participants in the opening night of a new musical or opera. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 22:25, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

October 24

Who's responsible for updating GPS data?

About a month ago, a mile long parkway was completed and opened near where I work (I'm in the U.S. BTW, if it makes a difference). This was not a road improvement, but a brand new road where none had existed before. I should say first that, while it was under construction, my GPS didn't recognize it, or the temporary detours caused by the construction. But then all of a sudden, now that its been open for a few weeks, my GPS (and most major mapping software, i.e. Google, Bing, Mapquest) all recognize it. This was a very modest project, maybe a half mile in total. I'm curious how my GPS suddenly recognized it now. Who is responsible for updating new roads? Is it a function of the Dept. of Transportation (State or Feds), or the mapping company (Google, Bing, etc)? Is there a standard procedure in place for updating new roads to GPS databases now as part of the construction? How does this happen? Ditch ∝ 00:23, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Highway databases have nothing directly to do with GPS. All GPS tells you, per se, is where you are (latitude, longitude, elevation) and what time it is. (Oh, and possibly how fast you're going — I think there's a Doppler component to that; it's not just taking the derivative of your position.)

The database belongs to whatever company made your unit. It's impressive that they were able to update your unit remotely — is it connected to the Internet somehow? --Trovatore (talk) 00:26, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Our article on that is Automotive navigation system. Articles on four mapping companies provide some hints: Tele Atlas, Navteq, GeoSmart and Automotive Navigation Data provide some crumbs. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:36, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

See also How Google Builds Its Maps—and What It Means for the Future of Everything ... iirc, they're now quite reliant on user feedback. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:39, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

The article about Google maps is very good. The one big answer that's missing above is The Census's Tiger data. Shadowjams (talk) 01:26, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

My understanding is that several cities (and possibly states) have openly (or at possibly for purchase) available datasets for all roads in the area that are kept up-to-date as projects are completed. I don't think it is comprehensive in the US, but at least there are some areas that make it easy for map providers to keep things updated. 209.131.76.183 (talk) 12:52, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

As linked above, the Tiger data I believe is updated relatively often, and is free (to my understanding). Shadowjams (talk) 03:11, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Fast Food Quality

(1) Attribution of bad business practice is defamation per se. (2) Couching it in terms of "allegedly" or saying someone told me is not a legal defense against defamation. μηδείς (talk) 02:32, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Cowboys in Calgary

The 1993 film Cool Runnings features the main characters heading out for some entertainment while in Calgary and are seen in a cowboy-style bar. I also noticed that there was a guy with a cowboy hat at the Olympic registration area. Is there any special reason why Calgary would feature such a thing? I mean, could you find a cowboy-style bar or tavern or whatever in any big city like Boston or Charlotte or is Calgary noted for being a cowboy place? DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 01:34, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Noted. See Calgary Stampede for example. Cowboy hat in Boston - unlikely. Rmhermen (talk) 02:43, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Yeehaw. One of Calgary's nicknames is "Cowtown". Clarityfiend (talk) 03:15, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Alberta is the Texas of Canada: an oil-rich and cattle-rich province of wide open plains (see Canadian Prairies). Cowboys are as associated with Calgary as they are with Dallas. --Jayron32 04:23, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Hence the defunct WHA team called the Calgary Cowboys. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:01, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

They also had a WHA team that never played, the Calgary Broncos. There is also the arena designed to look like a saddle. Adam Bishop (talk) 10:40, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

That type of dome has one advantage: It will never collapse... because it already is collapsed. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:46, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

We have one of those in Raleigh: Dorton Arena. We call it the "Pringle Arena" for obvious reasons. No cowboys here tho. A few dairy farms... --Jayron32 13:46, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Shortly before my time in the UK, on Commonwealth Day and before that, Empire Day, it was common for primary schools to ask children to attend dressed-up as a citizen of one of the nations of the Commonwealth. For boys, all that was needed was to get their cowboy outfit out of the dressing-up box and be Canadian for the day. An example: Empire Day 1952 or 1953 Vic Thomas is wearing a cowboy outfit. Alansplodge (talk) 12:58, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Why are all the girls in that picture dressed as nurses? Is there a Commonwealth nation famous for its nurses? Regards, Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 19:55, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I have no idea. Alansplodge (talk) 21:41, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

It's possible the nurses part is unrelated to the national clothes part. The picture claims 1952 or 1953 but it's not hard to imagine it was actually 1954. That being the case, it seems per our article, that on Empire Day 1954 a plaque was unveiled for Florence Nightingale in the Haydarpaşa Cemetery so it may be some deal was made of this even outside Turkey or that region (particularly as to some extent it's more of a Commonwealth thing then a Turkey thing). BTW, I think Empire Day refers to the Commonwealth day, from what I can tell there's no Empire Day in Turkey, it seems unlikely they would have had one in 1954. The source [19] which not clearly specifying doesn't give any reason to think it's another day. Also I think the plaque unveiling on Empire Day was more to do with it being on the Commonwealth war graves, from what I can tell there's no strong association between Empire day and Florence Nightingale (the day most associated with here is her birthday which is generally International Nurses Day). Nil Einne (talk) 00:15, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Empire Day became Commonwealth Day in 1958. 1954 would have been the centenary of Nightingale's arrival at Scutari. As the UK doesn't really have a "national day", Empire day might hhave been the next best thing. It all makes sense - good find! Alansplodge (talk) 08:19, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

UK holiday cottage/villa

I've only ever stayed in large hotels before, so this is a new area for me. I need to find out though, if a small group of people wanted to rent a private cottage, villa or similar home for a few days, where would be the best place to look for available options and roughly how much might it cost?

213.104.247.116 (talk) 20:14, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Google "UK holiday cottage" and you'll get all the offerings you could possibly want. Cost will vary greatly depending on what facilities you need, and which part of the country. Rojomoke (talk) 20:51, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

A site that I have found to be very useful for finding well located cottages is http://www.nationaltrustcottages.co.uk . They aren't the cheapest cottages about but the ones we've stayed in were beautiful. We even stayed in one of the 'wings' of one of their properties, Hanbury Hall (here's the link to the place we stayed - http://www.nationaltrustcottages.co.uk/cottage/south-wing-006003/). Anyhoo good luck, like Rojomoke says a search for Uk holiday cottage will show you a wide variety of sites. ny156uk (talk) 22:32, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

UK here - just confirming that National Trust cottages - while often interesting and in beautiful locations - are indeed often priced at the top end of the range. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:15, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

If the OP wants to say which area and how many people and what price per week (in total - gas, electricity, water, linen, car parking etc., etc.,) I would be happy to recommend some good ones that my wife and I have discovered on our many cottage holidays over the years. I know there are a load of cottage websites but boy, there are some properties and companies that need to be well-avoided. 80.192.67.152 (talk) 23:32, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

The site http://www.airbnb.com has gained significant popularity in the last few years as a place to exchange private accommodation. You can limit your search results to e.g. entire homes or cottages (as opposed to e.g. just a spare room in an inhabited flat). Currently, approx 1000 hits matching this criteria are available in the UK. DI (talk) 10:29, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

English Country Cottages is an established organisation with a good reputation, and their web site has a useful search tool. For the rest of the UK, there are Welsh, Irish and Scottish sister companies, with links from the ECC home page. As said above, cost will depend enormously on location, type of accommodation and time of year. Gandalf61 (talk) 12:08, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Also at the top end of the price range, but a chance to stay in a unique heritage property, is the Landmark Trust. Alansplodge (talk) 16:21, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

If you want to deal direct with cottage owners then sites like http://www.countrycottagesonline.com and http://www.cottageguide.co.uk/ have been around for a long time and offer a good range. Landmark Trust have to be recommended for unusual unique options. Yvonnara (talk) 18:36 31 October 2012

Difference between buckwheat flour and water chestnut flour?

I India during fast in Hindus people use a type of flour called kuttu ka "aata(Flour)" now some of them say its made from chestnut flour now when i search web the answer i got was showing was buckwheat for kuttu flour now are both of them are same.What is the difference between buckwheat flour and water chestnut flour? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Travis.josh10 (talk • contribs) 21:50, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Water chestnut flour is made from water chestnuts. Buckwheat flour is made from buckwheat. They are totally different. I don't known Hindi, but web sources indicate that kuttu ka atta is buckwheat flour, and water chestnut flour is singhare ka atta. Looie496 (talk) 23:10, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Buckwheat flour is gluten free and comes from a plant and is not related to wheat despite the name. Yvonnara (talk) 18:36 31 October 2012

Legal adults in New York

what laws say when you are considered an adult legaly in newyork state? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.76.2.56 (talk) 22:12, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

As with any state, it would depend on the activity. For example, many states allow smoking at 18 but drinking not until 21. I expect there are articles here on this subject, but my brain is failing as to what such articles might be called. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:42, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

(ec)Age of majority is one such and links to others. Rmhermen (talk) 01:50, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Age of Majority might be what you're looking for. It also has links to articles for drinking age, voting age, age of consent, and others. RudolfRed (talk) 01:49, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Eyes in the Back of head

I heard from a preacher years ago about " What would happen if man eyes was in the back of his head. hee quoted some one but I do not remember who. Thank for your help.24.173.63.243 (talk) 22:55, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't think he was quoting anyone specific. "To have eyes in the back of one's head" is a popular English idiom, meaning that someone is aware of things even when they are not looking. AlexTiefling (talk) 23:02, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Then he'd probably need a haircut. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:19, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Once, such a remark would have got you called a "shavenist pig".  :) -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 03:05, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

A bit like this, I guess? KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 11:53, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

October 25

Travelling in NYC on Thanksgiving

I am heading to NYC 22 Nov to catch Jets/Patriots game that night. I land at LaGuardia around 2pm and my hotel is Lexington and 50th. Not familiar with NYC traffic or congestion at all. My question is to someone who would be. How long will it take to travel to the stadium (by public transit) from that location and are there any special considerations I should take? Thanks131.137.245.206 (talk) 13:46, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

There is some information here. It is a holiday, so I would not expect any particular traffic; by the time you get to Manhattan, the parade will be a memory. I would advise the NJTransit over the PATH, PATH service is likely to be very infrequent after the game. I'd be prompt leaving after the game, I don't know how often the service from Secaucus Junction to NY Penn Station will be at that time of night on Thanksgiving but it's bound to be better than PATH... you might want to take a cab from Penn Station to your hotel afterwards, public transportation will be slower. That same website should have information on how best to get from your hotel to Penn Station. I'm compulsively early, but even so I would leave sometime around 5:30, to allow time to get to Penn Station, get your ticket (machine). Remember, 80,000 people are converging on that stadium, and some will be coming by train.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:06, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

NJTransit used to run a bus from the Port Authority Bus Terminal to the stadium, but they may have eliminated it due to the train service. That would probably be more convenient for you. The Meadowlands is not that far away from Manhattan, but the public transit there developed rather late.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:08, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

• Train traffic (and road traffic) is extremely heavy on Thanksgiving in NY. I have never taken the train to the Meadowlands, but every other NJ Transit train I have ridden on Thanksgiving has been standing room only, with the aisles so tightly packed that the conductors don't even try to collect tickets. Don't carry anything but a wallet, and don't wear a heavy coat unless the forecast really calls for it. μηδείς (talk) 16:51, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

• Just curious: Would it be easier to take a bus from LaGuardia to Newark Airport and take public transportation from there to the Meadowlands? 69.62.243.48 (talk) 22:33, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

I can't imagine a situation in which you would have to transfer in Newark could possibly be better than a direct trip to the Meadowlands. I would take a taxi from the Hotel to the Port Authority Bus Terminal, which should run around $10. In fact, I'd probably take a taxi the whole way--much more comfortable and reliable. Best to call a limo service (black limo which has to be called, not a yellow taxi you can hail on the street) and negotiate a set rate ahead of time (expect about $50/$60 plus $5-$10 tip) and leave at least two hours before game time. μηδείς (talk) 03:50, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Nick Griffin and Nicky Campbell

Griffin recently made some comments about the B&B that turned away a gay couple.

Apparently, during a subsequent interview on BBC Radio 5 Live, Campbell gave Griffin a very hard time on the subject. I'd like to hear the interview. I guess it's available somewhere on BBC iPlayer - can anyone help me find it?

Please, no soapboxing here about Griffin's comments. --Dweller (talk) 15:09, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

There's a clip here http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0070htg/clips. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:15, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Perfect. Thank you. --Dweller (talk) 16:47, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Mains Adaptor for Mongolia

What type of mains connection do they have in Mongolia? Is it the same as South Korea? KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 16:03, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Mains electricity by country says it's either CEE 7/5 (French) (which is also used in S Korea) or CEE 7/16 (Europlug) (which is not used in S Korea). The two should be compatible, and you should be able to use a standard European adaptor. The supply is 220V/50Hz, so you shouldn't need a voltage adaptor for any UK or European equipment. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 16:21, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

So for my UK-bought PC, I can use a Euro adaptor? And my Hungarian-bought PC will not need an adaptor? KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 16:28, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, that's what the article says. It's unsourced though. But here is a page with nice pictures of what fits and what doesn't. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 16:46, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

On re-reading that seems to come across a little sarky. Sorry - didn't mean to. Yes to both questions. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 16:49, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

I didn't take it the least bit sarcastic, mate. You've been a great help. Thanks! KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 06:02, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

For a moment there I was wondering whether power points in Mongolia and Hungary might be similar, then I remembered that it was unlikely, as the Ural–Altaic languages hypothesis is now widely rejected. Shortly afterwards, I realised how very silly I was to even think like that in the first place.--Shirt58 (talk) 02:40, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Here's one reader who smiled. —Tamfang (talk) 21:34, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

I did, too (though I believe partly in the theory, due to cross-plantation of vocabulary, which is common in languages spoken by people in juxtaposition to each other - the Hungarian people came from Siberia). The similarity in electricity points however, is probably more due to Soviet Russian influence. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 03:25, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Resolved

synthetic egg?

-I want to bake a cake

-One of my friends is allergic to egg

-I want to use some alternative he can eat

-It still needs to make a decent cake and taste right

-Anyone know of anything I could use?

-213.104.247.116 (talk) 18:09, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

You might ask if he is specifically allergic to either egg yolk or white (although more yolk will make it more "rich"). If so, you can use the other. Otherwise, I don't know of a single ingredient you can substitute in for egg, in the same quantities, to make your recipe work. Here are some egg-less cake recipes, though: [20]. StuRat (talk) 18:20, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Note: DO NOT DO THIS if the person has an allergy. There is no way to remove all the white from an egg yolk; egg yolks are coated in egg white even after separation. This is a very good way to make someone extremely sick, perhaps even requiring an ambulance trip to the hospital and expensive drugs. And that's the best case scenario. Bad idea. --NellieBlyMobile (talk) 03:15, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

That rather depends on the degree of the allergy, doesn't it ? If they just get a bit queasy after eating several eggs, then the amount in a cake with separated eggs shouldn't be a problem. If they need a trip to the emergency room whenever they touch any egg, then avoid all egg products (I wouldn't personally make any food for such a person, they should exclusively have "prescription foods and drinks", where all possibility of cross-contamination can be eliminated). StuRat (talk) 23:44, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Many of the things eggs do in recipes is to act as an emulsifier and binder. You may be able to purchase Soy-based lecithin (the emulsifying agent in eggs) and see if that helps approximate the role of the egg in your cooking. --Jayron32 19:34, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

I have cooked boxed cake and Bisquick recipes which have said you can substitute vegetable oil for the egg. Google searches haven't been very helpful--you might actually want to take some boxes off the shelf at a store and see what they say. A little sour cream might also help. μηδείς (talk) 19:51, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Google not very helpful? if you search for 'recipe for eggless cake' you will get more recipes than you have time to read, most of them do not have tricky ingredients. Good luck. Richard Avery (talk) 07:35, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

No, not at all on the subject I was addressing; substituting oil for the egg. Your links on that would be appreciated. μηδείς (talk) 16:42, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Egg-free cakes are really really easy. Just Google "vegan cake recipes". Or just go straight here.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 20:23, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

There are commercially available egg replacers such as Ener-G, which are close to being as protein-rich as actual egg. Alternatively, try grinding flax seeds. AlexTiefling (talk) 20:59, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

We have an article on egg substitutes, see Egg_substitute#Cooking_substitutes. It mentions a few others, including applesauce. I have also mixed some of these for recipes, such as half vegetable oil and half applesauce. SemanticMantis (talk) 02:45, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

I thought applesauce was a substitute for oil, in that it adds moisture, not emulsification and binding. StuRat (talk) 04:24, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

I've substituted Coke/Pepsi in chocolate boxed cake mix in a pinch. It worked 3 out of 4 times. - Purplewowies (talk) 04:22, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Do not try to modify or substitute eggs in traditional recipes, this usually goes wrong or at least won't taste right. Rather go for an original (usually vegan) egg-free recipe. Post Punk Kitchen has some very nice ones, see [21], e.g. [22] given the season or you can also easily use the cupcake batter and turn it into a cake (just adjust baking time). Even if your friend happens to know whether he's allergic to the yolk or whites, do not try to just use either one, as separating them might lead to either one contaminated with the other (without you noticing) and depending on the severity of your friend's allergy this might be already enough to trigger an allergic reaction. (I also do have a friend who's allergic to eggs, and it's actually not that hard to do egg-free cooking, once you're a bit used to it and know where to look for recipes). 2001:620:400:9:21A:64FF:FE9D:DB60 (talk) 11:49, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

There are products such as 'No-Egg' by Orgran which work great in cakes as an egg replacement - it's very easy to get in the UK. I would recommend it over substituting oil, etc. Other similar products may exist. --Michig (talk) 16:57, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Baking powder and water? I think I remember using that a while back (I have/had an egg allergy as well) – Connormah (talk) 03:26, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Some people hinted at this above, but my impression when I looked in to this once before is it depends a fair amount on what the primary purpose/s of eggs in your recipe is which is why there are quite a few fairly different suggestions. (It also depends on what you have available.) I do agree with our IPv6 anon friend your best bet if you don't have experience cooking withyout eggs is that you'll likely get best results from choosing a recipe which has hopefully been designed by someone with such experience. (N.B. My reply is to the OP not to μηδείς.) Nil Einne (talk) 09:09, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Can an outside-the-park homer ever be an error?

In last night's World Series game between the San Francisco Giants and some other team, Peralta's homer in the ninth inning appeared to be helped out of the park by Angel Pagan's glove. If he had let it go, I expect it would have been a double (or possibly a triple) off the center-field wall.

Anyway, Peralta obviously got credit for the dinger; Pagan didn't do anything wrong. Actually, in the game situation as it was, the homer was probably better for the Giants than a double, because it left the bases empty and the Tigers still five runs behind with two outs to go. But I was wondering — what if a fielder did do something obviously wrong? I'm having trouble picturing exactly how it would go, but let's say the ball could have been caught with ordinary effort, but through some spectacular clumsiness, the fielder instead pushed it out of the park. Clearly the batter and all men on base score, but is it a home run, or an error? --Trovatore (talk) 19:44, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

On May 26, 1993 in a game involving the Texas Rangers and Cleveland Indians, Jose Canseco clearly aided a ball over the fence that wouldn't have been a home run other-wise. It's a famous play with the ball bouncing off of Canseco's head and going over the fence. You could look up the game stats on Retrosheet to see if Canseco was credited with an error. Retrosheet is sending my Norton Antivirus into apoplexy over a "malicious script", so I'm not loading it and caveat emptor, but generally Retrosheet is considered a great way to get historical info on old baseball games. --Jayron32 19:51, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Found the boxscore at Baseball Reference.com instead. here it is. You can see that Carlos Martinez is credited with the home run, and Canseco didn't get any error, even though it was clearly aided over the fence by Canseco. Had the ball not gone out of the park, that would have been an obvious fielding error: Baseball usually agrees that a fly ball that contacts a player should be caught by that player, else it is an error (this is not true for balls that hit the ground near a player that the player should have caught). Bugs may want to weigh in on an official ruling, but had that not been a homer, that would have been an E-9 clearly. Had the ball his the ground instead of Canseco's head, it would have been a ground-rule double. Here's video of the home run (the date is wrong on the video, that's why it took me some time to find the right game). --Jayron32 19:59, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

MLB rule 6.09h explains it a somewhat convoluted way, as follows: "The batter becomes a runner when... Any fair fly ball is deflected by the fielder into the stands, or over the fence into foul territory, in which case the batter shall be entitled to advance to second base; but if deflected into the stands or over the fence in fair territory, the batter shall be entitled to a home run. However, should such a fair fly be deflected at a point less than 250 feet from home plate, the batter shall be entitled to two bases only."[23] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:28, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Interesting. So I wouldn't have guessed this: Apparently if a ball is headed out in the right field corner, and you can't catch it but you can get up high enough to whack it right of the foul pole, you can change what would have been a homer into a ground-rule double. Not the way I would have written the rule, myself.

But I'm still a little unclear on whether this excludes the possibility of an error on any play in which this happens. That seems counterintuitive. --Trovatore (talk) 22:36, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

If it's a home run, it can't be an error, and vice versa. And once it occurs, it's a dead-ball situation, so no error can be charged. The rules don't always explain themselves, so we're left to guess why it's considered a homer and not a 4-base error. My guess is that they didn't want to get into disputes about whether the potential catch was "ordinary effort" or not, so they made a decision that any such events are home runs. You raise an interesting question about intentionally deflecting it. I'll see if I can find out something about that. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:04, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Agreed, I can't think of any circumstances on which a single pitch can result in both an error and a home run, however that home run occurs, it means that the player is awarded the four bases through his own exertion and therefore anything the fielders did was irrelevant. Agree with Bugs on the reasoning. I don't think a player could or would act in the manner Travatore suggests, basically if they can touch it with the glove, they're going to try to catch it, the zone where they can only deflect it and not catch it is mere inches and they wouldn't plan that way, they'd try for the catch.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:12, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm not seeing anything about it in the rules, other than the prohibition against throwing your glove or cap at the ball. And like you, I wonder why someone would purposely create a double, as if he's in position to control its flight, one would think he would simply catch it. But you never know what strange things might happen on a ball field. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:20, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

I could see it happening accidentally, of course, and that's the point of the rule. The fielder could be poised on the foul line near the fence and jump up and not quite get a grip on it and it goes either fair or foul, and either within the playing field or over the fence. It would be very tough for a fielder to plan that exact scenario and resist his natural instinct to try to catch it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:24, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm thinking scenarios where his glove comes off (accidentally, not throwing at the ball) and so forth. He's still going to try to catch it rather than deflect it. Even barehanded. And any intentional deflection would be into the field of play, to try to get it into the infield and get someone out. No one would recall the rule that quickly.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:31, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Just to put a wrap up on this, remember that anything that happens "accidentally" isn't an error. An error is a mistake. Tripping on the way to stop a grounder heading out of the infield isn't an error. DOR (HK) (talk) 06:17, 29 October 2012 (UTC) (Of course, I may be in error.)

I'm not sure I understand the distinction you're making here between a "mistake" and "something you do accidentally," but in any case it's true that "mental mistakes" are specifically not counted as errors (see Official scorer#Errors). In general though, this is a fairly gray area where the official scorer's personal judgment has a lot of influence. Also, referring back to the original questioner - it is definitely not the case that giving up a home run rather than a double is ever preferable for the fielding team! After all, the most damage a runner can do after hitting a double is to later score...which of course is guaranteed if he hits a home run instead. -Elmer Clark (talk) 17:26, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

MLB scoring rules 10.12[24] starts this way: "An error is a statistic charged against a fielder whose action has assisted the team on offense, as set forth in this Rule 10.12" It then goes into a long list of what constitutes an error and what does not constitute an error. It specifically talks about "mental mistakes or misjudgments", which is what DOR is talking about. I'm not seeing anything specific about the OP's question, but I think the answer is implied: "...whose misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) prolongs the time at bat of a batter." Apparently the thinking is that a ball bouncing off a fielder's head does not qualify as a "misplay". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:28, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

October 26

HELP

I was disconnected when I sought the following help:

joined #wikipedia-en-help [02:05] <+Helpmebot> Hello kbd, welcome to #wikipedia-en-help! Please type your question about editing Wikipedia below and press Enter. A helper should be with you shortly. If your question is about a particular page please make sure your question includes the URL or name of the page in question. [02:06] My goal is to add the following: The genus fascism includes nazism, the German political ideology during WWII which produced the holocaust. Planet earth has thus come to know fascism as the essence of that ideology: arbitrary elitism. Your suggestions please. [02:09] There are two pages involved, Fascism and Nazism — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.126.234.167 (talk) 07:27, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

You'd need a reliable source which supported your claim. And I've got to say, our Fascism page, which I keep an eye on, is a constant battleground of people trying to promote different political points of view about the movement. I'm not sure that a short, reductionist statement like yours would last long even with a source. AlexTiefling (talk) 09:18, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

It sounds like you have a mission to preach your ideas to people rather than to summarize what is in WP:reliable sources with due WP:WEIGHT and supply WP:citations. Please see WP:5P for what Wikipedia editing is about. Dmcq (talk) 09:49, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Authority for genus, in fact for the entire first sentence, is Wikipedia's page on Nazism. Uber alles, master race, and the notion one race has a right to exterminate another race are penultimate elitism. Would you quibble for a moment that the holocaust is the icon for WWII? Do you deny that the current WP fascism page serves more to obfuscate than elucidate? Do you deny that simplicity is the essence of perfection? I respectfully suggest failing, or refusing, as the case may be, to expose fascism for exactly what it is, is a crime against humanity. You will find formal definitions of fascism as "arbitrary elitism" on the PonyTail Institute for Change website (www.pi4c.com)in the Defacto Facism section and the Daily Message for August 2, 1999 and is referred to over and over again throughout the Daily messages. I was shot through the head, at least in part, because of those writings. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.126.234.167 (talk) 17:16, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

What we think has no bearing on the text of Wikipedia articles, so asking us for our feelings or thoughts is irrelevent. What do the preponderance of reliable sources have to say on the subject? --Jayron32 17:32, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia cannot itself be used as a source for material on Wikipedia, for obvious reasons. Those sources that you have linked to on the web do not appear to be reliable. We already have extensive material about the political nature of fascism and nazism, their empowerment of elite groups, and their role in crimes against humanity. What, apart from a platform for your own idiosyncratic interpretation of these points, do you think is lacking? AlexTiefling (talk) 00:16, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

-- "Lacking" begs the point. The definitions as they now stand, for purposes of encyclopedic statements, are totally useless. They obfuscate rather than elucidate. The "unreliable" information "linked to" makes the point that WWII did not put an end to "crimes against humanity fascism", that such elitism has morphed into world fascism. It also makes the point that the tragedy of WWII is that people associate fascism/nazism with a lunatic with a funny mustache. The world must know, and appreciate the dangers of, world fascism. And yes I know, and appreciate, that those two sentences make it clear that WWII was in a significant way a fuss between their fascists and our fascists. It is time to big boys and big girls. The next "fuss" will be nuclear. My vote is to make all the material other than the two sentences footnotes. --

Nazism isn’t fascism; -- species of the genus, my friend, read Wiki's page on Fascism (also note the paragraph above which was added yesterday but somehow or other got lost in the shuffle) -- rather, it is a version, a sub-set or one possible consequence of fascism. There are others, for example Chiang Kai-shek’s pre-1949 Nationalist Party, that did not involve a master race, racial extermination or other characteristics cited above. DOR (HK) (talk) 06:22, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

TOEFT iBT score reporting help

My test is on Sunday 1000 hrs. It is 1720 hrs. on Friday right now at my place. TOEFL guidelines clearly mention that I can add up to four universities for free score reporting no later than 10:00 PM local test center time, the day before my test. However, when I start to add institutions, it starts asking me the fee 18 US dollars per university, for score reporting. Am I doing something wrong here, because right now, it shouldn't be asking me the money for those four universities? Please help me. Thanks - 202.3.77.11 (talk) 11:57, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Ok, got it. I was clicking at the wrong place. This problem can be marked as resolved. - 115.248.114.51 (talk) 12:45, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Resolved

origin of the term "rag a muffin"

How, where did then term originate and what exactly does it mean? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.70.5.25 (talk) 15:11, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

See here. --Jayron32 15:21, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Hand Accuracy.

wikipedia cannot offer medical diagnoses or advice. Please seek professional help.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Hi, I'm a competitive gamer and i experience on rare occasions some days where my mouse/hand accuracy is completly shot, i have to use repeated attempts to click on even the most simple things, its usually gone the next day but has anyone ever heard of this before or what reason for it there can be? Joneleth (talk) 22:07, 26 October 2012 (UTC) Early signs of RSI perhaps? HiLo48 (talk) 22:12, 26 October 2012 (UTC) [Having written that, it made me think. Does it make this a (no doubt unintended) request for medical advice?] HiLo48 (talk) 22:15, 26 October 2012 (UTC) Yes. Even if not asking "How do I fix it?", a question that seeks to identify a condition that would be treated by a relevant health professional is effectively seeking medical advice. It's not bad to ask such a question, but it would be bad for us to diagnose or offer treatment ideas other than "See a doctor". It may well be incipient RSI. Or it may not. Only a doctor would know. -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 22:22, 26 October 2012 (UTC) Yep. Joneleth, go see a doctor. (But read the RSI article anyway. Gamers should know that stuff.) HiLo48 (talk) 22:32, 26 October 2012 (UTC) I agree that you should see a doctor to ensure that there's no underlying medical condition. But, once you get the all-clear from him, you might want to look at what you eat and drink. There are things like caffeine and sugar, which can make you "jittery", and thus limit your ability to hold your hand still. I imagine in jobs where avoiding a shaky hand is critical, like a sniper of neurosurgeon, they know more about what foods to avoid for optimal performance. StuRat (talk) 22:33, 26 October 2012 (UTC) Just speaking from personal experience I have used computers that were almost impossible to move the cursor the way I wanted, partly because of mouse problems. Apteva (talk) 22:38, 26 October 2012 (UTC) I have no idea if its a medical condition or just a common occurance for everyone, regardless as a visit to the doctor costs money and it really doesnt affect me that much, I was just curious as to what it might be. Reading about RSI seems like it would be painful, what im experiencing has no pain associated with it what so ever. Joneleth (talk) 22:38, 26 October 2012 (UTC) See Compensatory tracking task. By the way, it has come to my attention that the inventor of the mouse may be a frequent contributor to WP today. Apteva (talk) 22:46, 26 October 2012 (UTC) I wonder what he thinks about the fact that the big current technology event, Windows 8, is moving us away from the mouse? (And where does that take gaming?) HiLo48 (talk) 22:59, 26 October 2012 (UTC) (WP:OR): In a completely non-medical vein: ask yourself "when are my best games/scores/achievements occurring"? For me, in any type of game, I never do my best after days of regular play. Instead, all my high scores come after I've taken a few days off, but before I've spent much time too on it again. Speaking of which, I'm going to go play spelunky :) Also, you might be interested in reading about fatigue. SemanticMantis (talk) 00:27, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Salmond scottish?

is the surname salmond scottish and if not where does it originate from and if there is no answer to these two questions is it a made up name? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.202.146.81 (talk) 22:34, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Read this. It is a variation of the Hebrew name "Solomon"; and probably came back to Europe as a result of the Crusades. The specific spelling you give is attested but of unknown origin and has been known in the British Isles, in various spellings, since 1212. This page from the 1881 UK census indicates that the name was much more prominent in Scotland than England: In that census there are only 2 counties among the top ten that are English (London and Yorkshire) and the rest are Scotland. --Jayron32 23:12, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

October 27

Solar watch

Can someone give me an advice of a good solar watch that sell under 60usd in amazon.com?

Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Iskander HFC (talk • contribs) 03:29, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

No. I bought a Casio for about $25. But advice on purchases is outside the realm of the encyclopedia. Try Consumer Reports. Apteva (talk) 03:45, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Or reviews on Amazon. --Mr.98 (talk) 11:41, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

If you want a solar watch for less than $60 (€50) [£40], then you should try to buy a broken one which is of inferior quality, of which there are many examples. 92.0.97.51 (talk) 17:27, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Which is the science and art....

What is the science and art of management of schools and their characteristic way of interaction of students primarily (and faculty) of schools (educational centres) with the built environment? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.222.145.250 (talk) 10:26, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

There isn't likely one catch-all term for these things. The field of Education (as in, that which is taught and studied in Education School, not just education broadly) more or less try and cover some of these things, but the intersection with the build environment would be a form of Architecture or Environmental Design. If one were, say, trying to study these issues, it would be some intersection between these fields. --Mr.98 (talk) 11:41, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Hungary Drafting 10,000 Militia

I have heard rumours that Hungary has drafted 10,000 militia, in case of civil unrest or even a possible civil war. I cannot find anything on the internet for this. Can anybody else? KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 19:38, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Do you really mean drafted, as in conscription, as opposed to having a 10,000 member volunteer force ? StuRat (talk) 02:32, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

I believe it's a conscripted force, which are all being trained in Budapest - they are legally required to attend. I am not sure what is going on. I am getting garbled messages from people - none of whom are native English speakers, and some messages from a client (an international media organization who came to interview people about this). There seems to be a media blackout (except foreign media - which know nothing much because of the media blackout). I am just trying to find out what's going on. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 03:14, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

This all looks so implausible. What possible use would 10K untrained raw recruits be in such a situation? And why would they need a media blackout? Clarityfiend (talk) 05:13, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

But if there were a media blackout, and the internet knows nothing about it, how would we here know anything that the rest of world doesn't know? -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 06:08, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

I actually don't know what's going on. When one of my colleagues comes back this afternoon, I will ask him where he got this information, and try to find something. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 09:52, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

I would note per Military service#Hungary, it doesn't seem clear how this could be done in secret without breaking the law. While conscription is again possible after a recent law change, it seems the National Assembly (Hungary) needs to approve it first. It seems unlikely this would happen in secret and with a complete media blackout. Nil Einne (talk) 10:18, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

That recent law change might be the key to this. I can well imagine someone creating a rumour that takes the raw material of the law change and converts it via the filter of their mind into these concrete plans Kage's heard about it. Until such time as it's confirmed, if it ever is, it has to remain a rumour, and it should be assumed to be baseless. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 19:12, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Living in neighbouring Austria, all I can find are some reports in local media on the demonstrations last Tuesday (commemorating the revolution 1956). These had been organised both by the exparliamentary opposition (Szolidaritas und MILLA) and by the ruling centre-right party of Victor Orban. There is no mention of any militias being drafted, nor is there any report on civil unrest. It would seem unlikely that the sizable Hungarian community in Vienna (many of them liberal intellectuals) could be oblivious to such a situation. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 12:14, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't know anything about this particular situation or non-situation, but I will note that it's a common conspiracy theory "newsflash" to ominously state that troops are massing here or there. A quick Google for "US is massing troops", for example, returns hits for American troops that are massing in Kuwait, at the Iranian border, at the Mexican border, at the Venezuelan border, and at the Syrian border with Iraq, among many others. Matt Deres (talk) 15:40, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

October 28

Judge Judy episode

In which Judge Judy episode did Judge Judy ask someone to spell the word "white" and he spelled it "wight"? Thank you. Futurist110 (talk) 04:14, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

That's pretty obscure. Have you tried Google? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:42, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

I've just had a go with Google, and although I can't pin down the exact episode, it appears to have screened in early August 2004, and I've found a forum where the case in question is referred to as the "Nasty Away Message" case. AlexTiefling (talk) 12:53, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

• If she asked him to spell /waɪt/ instead of /hwaɪt/, wight was the correct spelling. Given she's from NY I expect that was the case--she got it wrong, not he. μηδείς (talk) 16:09, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
  • I don't think Judge Judy talks like Elmer Fudd. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:23, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

You haven't understood what is meant by the IPA, Bugs. Look again. It's not the distinction between wight and right, but the distinction between wight /waɪt/ and white /hwaɪt/, which are pronounced differently except in certain dialects. Many blacks and Southerners distinguish the two according to the IPA I gave, most white New Yorkers do not. See which-witch merger. μηδείς (talk) 16:42, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Under what conditions would someone in that show bring the actual word "wight" into the discussion? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:54, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

If she up and asked someone who distinguishes /w/ from /hw/ to spell /waɪt/ it would be the only proper answer for him to give. You don't second guess the judge. μηδείς (talk) 17:34, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Given the typical nature of the parties at her courtroom, it seems unlikely. However, the only way to know for sure would be to find a youtube and/or a transcript of the episode, so that the context would be clear. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:52, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Wight and White are homophones in the UK, on the Isle of Wight anyway. Alansplodge (talk) 18:55, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

not in all of the UK, in parts of Scotland they are different. -- Q Chris (talk) 18:58, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

I stand corrected. Alansplodge (talk) 13:57, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Unknown Landscape

I found this picture in a maze of old folders on my old hard drive http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-dE5bqc5jtwI/Tpc1TXHs8_I/AAAAAAAAAKo/-DRS_u9O4mY/s1600/01698_betweenthemountains_1920x1080.jpg. Reverse searching doesn't really give me anything except for a million wallpaper sites. What's the landmark/place that it was originally taken? It's definitely been altered, but still looks quite stunning.

Thanks in advance, 27.32.104.185 (talk) 08:57, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

A bit of googling states that it's a photo by Giovanni Di Gregorio, and calls it "An old abandoned house. Behind it the mountains of Gran Sasso, in Abruzzo." Could be. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:56, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

This looks like it's the original. The caption says it's near "the road that leads from Città Sant'Angelo to Elice" - Cucumber Mike (talk) 13:44, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! The original is better I think :) -27.32.104.185 (talk) 11:29, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Funnily enough, the wallpaper version appears to be in natural colour, and lacks the watermark (without having cropped it out), whereas the watermarked version is almost certainly in false colour. I wonder if both versions derive from an earlier copy? AlexTiefling (talk) 11:36, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

This looks like the original: [25] AlexTiefling (talk) 11:38, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

That includes a link to the artist's page which links to the above 500px site. I'm guessing the artist uploaded them to both sites (they commented in the interfacelift site). It seems clear neither came from the other directly since one lacks the watermark or any sign of it (well I didn't look that closely), and the otheryet it is cropped more (but not enough to cut out the watermark). The original as it were is I presume still in the artists's collection although the original of 27's is likely the interfacelift one. Nil Einne (talk) 16:35, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

BTW, if you look at the author's profile on the 500px site, most of their images have similar colours. They look fairly typical of artistic High dynamic range imaging processing to me (as our article mentions 'HDR is also commonly used to refer to display of images derived from HDR imaging in a way that exaggerates contrast for artistic effect') and in one of them HDR is even mentioned in the comments. So most likely there isn't even really one original image but multiple ones with different bracketings. Although whether the interfacelift image is one of the bracketings or is also a processed HDR of the originals but without the exaggerating effect I can't say although it does seem to have fairy good dynamic range, but given it's still 24 bit I doubt you can be sure. Nil Einne (talk) 16:44, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

New WP developments

Hello,

I'm doing a school presentation, and looking for information on new developments concerning Wikipedia. I seem to recall reading about some collaborative effort with some commercial information resources, but I'm not finding this information anywhere, can you help me?.

Thank you for your time,

AGA — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.161.61.75 (talk) 19:02, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

What city in the united States has the most centenarians (people over 100)?

What city in the united States has the most centenarians (people over 100)? Neptunekh94 (talk) 19:11, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Unless there's any reason to believe the age distribution is skewed in certain places, the answer would be the city that has the most people (of all ages), which I assume to be New York, depending on your definition of city. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 19:18, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

We do have a List of the verified oldest people, (unfortunately not sortable). List of supercentenarians from the United States may be of help, as it gives the state of residence (but no city). This article on the 1990 census (centenarians) has 10.1% in CAL and 8.4% in NY. Again, there are no figures based on cities of residence.

I can not find a city based listing which would give an answer to your query. Age distribution DOES seem to be skewed, as evidenced by the example of Florida. The last reference by the US Census says that whilst lots of "the younger old" move to FLA, the "older old" seem to return to their state of birth. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 20:04, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

To get you started, Philadelphia has "more than 400".[26] Clarityfiend (talk) 20:58, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Electronic fund transfer in the 1960s

Dear Sir / Madam, I am researching a book and need to understand how electronic fund transfers were made in the early 1960s. Money is being moved from a US bank account to the UK and the transfer is being made at the UK end. Both accounts belong to the same person. I would appreciate it if you could help me with some of the details i.e. Could this have been achieved with a phone call to the US by the client with the instruction to wire the funds or would it have been arranged with the aid of the receiving bank through a call or telegram? How would ID have been proven at that time? How long would the transfer have taken?86.146.226.146 (talk) 20:02, 28 October 2012 (UTC) I would much appreciate if you could find someone to help me with this as I'm having great difficulty finding out through the web. Kind Regards, Janine

see Telex--Aspro (talk) 22:54, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

You might start with our article on Western Union, mainly because the Telegraphic transfer and Wire transfer articles are pretty poor, even though they are still options today. The basis is that a person identifies himself or herself to an agent or bank in Place A who then accepts the funds. The agent or banker then contacts (by telegraph, telex, cable or telephone) the agent or corresponding bank in Place B (hence, the term "correspondence banking") and on the basis of an established reputation, instructs the agent or bank in Place B to release the funds as per instructions (e.g., deposit in an account, pay to an individual). An exchange rate is agreed, and for larger sums there might have been capital controls paperwork to complete. After many such transactions by thousands of people, the two banks net out the difference between what they have sent and what they have received and at some suitable accounting point, one pays the other the difference. DOR (HK) (talk) 06:35, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Many thanks DOR. I have my scene! Cheers.

spinach salad with warm bacon dressing

Where did spinich salad with warm or hot bacon dressing originate? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.123.44.84 (talk) 23:41, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

From Pennsylvania Dutch (meaning German) cuisine, and ultimately, from Germany. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 00:05, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Alton Brown explains the history and provenance of the bacon-and-spinach salad in [this episode] of his show Good Eats. --Jayron32 03:20, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

October 29

Mary Rice Hopkins and Puppets With A Heart

Is it possible to bring Mary Rice Hopkins and Puppets With A Heart to your network? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.140.82.162 (talk) 01:16, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Do you mean is it possible to have articles on those subjects? We already have an article on Mary Rice Hopkins. If it can be established that Puppets With a Heart is sufficiently notable in its own right, rather than just being part of Ms Hopkins' activities, then it could also have an article. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 02:50, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

What license this image should be?

[this image] I've put all the necessary information including where I found the image and who is the author?Hope you could help me about this problem, thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by NalizAS91 (talk • contribs) 03:23, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

It should be deleted unless you have the author's permission--unless you have something notable to say about her acute and apparently morbid lordosis. . μηδείς (talk) 07:44, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Travel from India to England in 1888

If someone were travelling by ship from India to England in 1888, how long would they expect the voyage take? If it makes any difference, assume they'd be wealthy enough to travel in reasonable comfort, probably first class. --Dweller (talk) 14:46, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

This site says that the P&O voyage from London to Bombay took 12½ days in the 1890s, if that's close enough. The steamers left London every Saturday for India and fortnightly for Australia and China. Fares were £55 first class to India; £35 - £37 10s for second class. - Karenjc 20:30, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Excellent, thanks. --Dweller (talk) 20:47, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Iceland - the height of the Aldeyjarfoss waterfall

Good afternoon !!!

Just a small question,

Your article on the Aldeyjarfoss waterfall : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldeyjarfoss, mentions a height of 20m, but your River Skjálfandafljót article : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skj%C3%A1lfandaflj%C3%B3t, mentions a height of 10m !!

I'm translating a document from French into English and would like to know which height is the correct one please ???

Thanks in advance for any help. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.242.237.167 (talk) 16:32, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, a website for white-water canoeists called Icelandic River Guides says of Aldeyjarfoss ; "A large rapid is quickly followed by a 15 metre waterfall which is not for canoeing." NB This is the UK use of the word "canoeing" which includes kayaking. Most tourist and photography websites go with 20m, but maybe they got that from Wikipedia. Over at Google Books, we have Fundamentals of Physical Geography by David John Briggs, Peter Smithson, which claims a height of 40m. There is an intriguing "snippet view" of Inner- und Nordost- Island: Erinnerungen aus meiner dritten Islandfahrt (1913) which says; "Der Aldeyjarfoss (325 m ü. M.) hat zwei vertikale Fälle, von 6 resp. 19,5 m Höhe und 58 m Fall...", although a century of erosion may have changed that figure. Alansplodge (talk) 17:14, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Well thanks very much for your help ... now I've REALLY got a choice of heights !!! I think I'll go for the 20m, as you suggested.78.242.237.167 (talk) 08:15, 30 October 2012 (UTC)karangreg

Which hotel is this?

These are pictures of a hotel I visited in Berlin, Germany, three years ago. It's located rather near the exact centre, one or two kilometres away from Berlin Hauptbahnhof at the most, and only a walking distance away from Unter den Linden. It is a rather expensive hotel, with even the cheapest rooms costing over 100 € per night. I think it's part of an international hotel chain. I of course learned the hotel name when I got there, but I have since forgotten it. And I don't have the bill from the hotel any more, since I paid it three years ago. Could anyone help me remember the name and exact location of this hotel? JIP | Talk 19:55, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Not that I could even if you did, but do you have any exterior shots of the hotel? Because these rooms look like generic hotel rooms. It looks unremarkably like half of the hotel rooms I've stayed in in my life. People may be more able to identify the specific hotel with some exterior shots. --Jayron32 20:25, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Even a shot of the city scene looking out the window might help. There's a building visible through the window, but maybe not enough for identification. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:48, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

The quality isn't brilliant but the flyer on the desk looks like it has the logo of Mercure Hotels on it. Does Mercure Berlin Mitte look familiar? - Cucumber Mike (talk) 20:36, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

I think the logo on the door label and the menu on the bedside table looks more like an A with a bar over it. Two Berlin hotels with names beginning with 'A' sprang to mind, but it's clearly not the ultra-swanky Adlon Kempinski. It might be the Aldea Novum (which I've stayed at) - but that wasn't nearly as expensive as you're saying. Do you remember anything about the location? What was the nearest U-Bahn/S-Bahn stop? Was there an elevated rail line in the road outside? Were there any landmark churches nearby, or any waterways? AlexTiefling (talk) 22:06, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

That room is a dead ringer for a room pictured at the site of the Meliã Berlin. Go to http://www.meliaberlin.com/en/hotel-berlin.html and click on "Gallery" under "The Hotel" in the menu at the bottom of the page, then select the first picture. Deor (talk) 02:46, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Not only that, but the à logo on the aforementioned door hanger matches the Melia logo exactly. That's the one. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 04:10, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I am now fairly sure this is the Meliã Berlin Hotel. Thanks! JIP | Talk 05:58, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

à confirms my suspicion that à is found in Portuguese and some other languages including Vietnamese, but not in Spanish. The Meliã Hotel seems to have Spanish associations, but not Portuguese ones. Can someone explain this? -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 07:32, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

I was curious about this too. The actual copy of the website names the hotel "Meliá", which is different. Looking at some of the other logos of the hotel chain (particularly "Grand Meliá"), I wonder if the tilde is a product of artistic license and represents an acute accent. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 07:45, 30 October 2012 (UTC)