Wikipedia:External links/Noticeboard

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ratebeer.com and beeradvocate.com

Resolved

I recently noticed an editor adding these links across a large number of beer-related articles. His viewpoint is that these sites are on par with Imdb (WP:IMDb) and are appropriate external links for an a large number of beer-related articles.

I'm aware of the problems we've had with IMDb (Wikipedia:External_links/Perennial_websites#IMDb) and similar sites. Do we feel that ratebeer.com and beeradvocate.com should be treated in the same manner?

If so, in what type of beer-related articles? As an external link, a reference, or both? --Ronz (talk) 16:22, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't think it has any place on Wikipedia. --Biker Biker (talk) 17:09, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi there, it's me! I came across a few links to RateBeer while adding these as well, so there are probably many more out there. People use these sites to find good beer. They are privately owned but 99.99% of the work on them has been volunteer. Through this discussion we should decide a) whether the sites should be banned throughout the External Links sections (excepting of course on the Beer rating article), and if allowed b) where they should be placed. I added the Canadian individual brewer pages to their respective articles (example here) and the "top" lists to their "Beer in x country" articles for most countries with a page (example here). Is there a problem with both, or mainly the country articles? Thanks.

Also what part of WP:LINKSTOAVOID does this break so I know in the future? I don't think the sites break Rule #11 (No blogs, personal webpages, and most fansites) in the same way that Find a Grave does because the individual memorials there can be made by fans, while each individual beer rating on these pages are decided upon by large groups of people, in the same nature as the IMDb.

And could someone please bring Wikiproject Beer's attention to this so we can hopefully arrive at a consensus on links to these two sites across the board? Cheers, PhnomPencil (talk) 18:40, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Not sure why you couldn't do it, but I've notified that WikiProject per your request. Rivertorch (talk) 04:18, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Responding from WikiProject Beer. Linking to those sites has been a contentious issue for years. So much so that arguments over those sites, combined with arguments over linking to BJCP, broke the spirit of the project and people drifted away. Some people have had firm opinions and have either added them on mass or removed them on mass. And then vigorously debated the issue. Is there much encyclopaedic value in the sites that we should put them in the external links? No. I'm a long term contributor and admin on RateBeer. I know Joe Tucker, the owner of RateBeer, personally, and I helped shape RateBeer as it was growing. But I don't see in general what value Wikipedia readers are getting, other than random consumer opinions. These are not expert opinions, and the comments are frequently of the ilk: "This beer goes down as smooth as a top class whore". Linking to such opinions is not doing our readers a service. RateBeer falls under the EL category of a blog or fansite - it is user generated with minimal editorial control (we do have guidelines and will remove comments that are not appropriate or ask the user to amend what they have said - but on the whole we let people alone to say what they want). Where, however, the site can be useful, is in linking to some of the articles that have been published under editorial control - [1]. Sadly, article publishing stopped a couple of years ago as it was difficult to maintain a weekly output, but the articles are still kept on file. The basic information on breweries and their production can also be useful to link to if there are no other sources to provide that information. Admins are in control of that information, and the information is peer reviewed on an editorial forum. However, as we mainly rely on published information, a better source can usually be found. The main aspect where the site can be useful is in providing a quick overview of a brewery's brands. If there is no easily available source showing a list of brands produced by a brewery, then linking to RateBeer or BeerAdvocate can be of assistance. But as a general external link, no. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 12:05, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for doing that, Rivertorch. After being called a linkspammer by Ronz I thought there was a large enough possibility that he would call me a canvasser for going there that I decided to make a request instead.

SilkTork is more of an expert than anyone else I can think of in regards to the suitability of these links. I therefore respect his opinion and have removed them. Sorry for making a little more work for everybody, but at least now a bit of a precedent has been set for beer review links. I did look through the Wikiproject Beer archives before these additions and found nothing relating to the suitability... if I were to do it differently, I would have started a discussion there first, just to be certain. Thanks again to the External Links watchers, if it weren't for you this encyclopedia would be full of spam. Thankless work you do; glad some people are out there keeping an eye on things. PhnomPencil (talk) 13:06, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Post-script: I was pretty happy this affair was over. I'd made a mistake, corrected it, and apologized. But Ronz has written on my wall: "After being called a linkspammer by Ronz" I don't believe I ever did so. How about we drop it now that it's crystal clear you shouldn't have been adding the links as you did?", and I realized that I'd forgotten to include the diff.

I appreciate that people watching over the external links can make a strong comment in one out of thousands of reverting edit summaries, so I'm not accusing him of breaking agf over that. But he's gone and called me a liar over this on my talk page... is there a way to keep him away from my talk page on matters further regarding the mistake I made? I feel some personal angst toward me over my mistake and just want him to stop. Thanks, PhnomPencil (talk) 01:53, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm marking this thread as resolved because any questions within the purview of this noticeboard appear to have been settled. Rivertorch (talk) 06:03, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Question

If the official website is already listed in the infobox, should it ALSO be in the EL section? WP:EL seems to indicate it should be in both places: External links should not normally be used in the body of an article.[1] Instead, include appropriate external links in an "External links" section at the end of the article, and in the appropriate location within an infobox, if applicable But to me that seems like duplication. What do others think? Thanks! -- — Keithbob • Talk • 17:13, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with it in that infoboxes typically duplicate information already in the article. Location (talk) 18:19, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Good point. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:30, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Quran and Al-Fatiha

• Articles to use: Quran and Al-Fatiha
• External link 1: [Word by Word analysis of Quranic Verses]

Well, I cam here after a discussion with an aadministrator with his edit summary here. The Website cannot be a personal blog, or personal webpage, and it just gives a word by word analysis and interpretation of the maings of the Book in English Language and Urdu. I request to approve it to be added to these articles, it can be examined and is not an advertisement or vice versa. Faizan (talk) 08:55, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

It looks like a personal web site to me. Whatever it is, it credits its content to one person (with assistant) and fails to provide any information about who that person is or why we should trust him. The Internet is replete with interpretations of religious texts, and linking to any of them without a very good reason seems at odd with our goal to be a neutral encyclopedia. Rivertorch (talk) 16:50, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

ok. Faizan (talk) 14:16, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Steven P. Croley CV

Please remove the external link to Steven P. Croley's CV (footnote 5). It is outdated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.211.56.116 (talk) 12:39, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

It probably shouldn't have been added in the first place. Having said that, I'd note that that source is used to support no fewer than 17 different statements in the article, and I'm a little reluctant to remove the citation and leave the statements in place. CVs inevitably become outdated (and really aren't good sources for our purposes, anyway), but if they're ever marginally acceptable as primary sources until something better is found, I don't see why a given one would suddenly be beyond the pale inasmuch as it describes (accurately, we hope) what was the case at a given time. I don't recall running into this exact situation before, and I'd like to hear what other editors think. If no one else responds, you might consider reposting to the Reliable sources noticeboard. Rivertorch (talk) 16:44, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Larry Allen Abshier

In the article on Larry Allen Abshier, I found the link to larry-allen-abshier.co.tv to be useless because the page it refers to is in turkish and does not provide any information.

Now, my question is what should/can I do? This page is very specific and might be viewed very rarely which is why I refused to put this issue on the talk page. (The links might remain there for too long)

Should I just edit / remove the reference? Or is posting this issue here "the way to go"? Should I notify somebody of the Korea-Project? (Whom? How do I find the right guy?)

Any help/advise is appreciated. Shurakai (talk) 18:50, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

The link is used in an inline reference to support a statement about Abshier, so the principal question, I think, is not so much whether it's an appropriate link as whether it's a reliable source. There's a noticeboard for asking about reliable sources, and you're welcome to post your query there. Since you asked here, however, I'll go ahead and give you my opinion: there's no evidence that the page supports the content in question. Since the relevant paragraph makes no extraordinary claims, is primarily about an individual who is deceased, and begins by mentioning a book whose existence is verifiable, my inclination would be to leave the content as is and replace the reference with a "citation needed" tag—i.e., {{cn}}. Rivertorch (talk) 04:37, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Planet of the Apes (novel)

Per a discussion at Talk:Planet of the Apes (novel)#EL regarding a link that was removed after nearly three years on the Planet of the Apes (novel) article. I only want to restore the link to the site, not reuse the images on Wikipedia. This is how the EL appeared:

La Planète des singes at The Sacred Scrolls - History of the novel's international editions with book cover images.

The book cover images are obviously accurate and very useful to people interested in the Planet of the Apes novel's history. When I first saw The Sacred Scrolls page it answered questions I had about the book's different title Monkey Planet in the UK, for example. WP:ELBURDEN says Every link provided must be justifiable in the opinion of the editors for an article. I've been maintaining the article for nearly two years, and I found The Sacred Scrolls site to be very useful in ways WP cannot. We obviously cannot post dozens of book cover images on a WP page. The Sacred Scrolls is the main "go to" site for people interested in the Planet of the Apes series. Removing it on the issue that the page enables copyright infringement is not appropriate, as this was resolved at Wikipedia:Media copyright questions#External link copyright issue. It is not covered under WP:ELNEVER. WP:ELNO says one should generally avoid a list of certain EL types. Even if The Sacred Scrolls site meets one of those types, "generally avoid" does not mean in every case. The copyright has been cleared so there isn't a policy reason to keep the link out, we just need the intention behind ELNO#12 elaborated on. - Gothicfilm (talk) 18:23, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

• Consensus has determined that open wikis that do not have a significant number of editors do not make appropriate external links, and this is reflected by WP:ELNO #12. This wiki's recent changes shows that there are no active editors, aside from a small handful that make a few edits every week or so, but as of writing this, no named accounts have edited the wiki in over a week. Open wikis are subject to vandalism and inaccurate edits, and without an active community of editors there's no guarantee of such things being noticed and corrected, which means that Wikipedia should not be linking to it. Even looking through the archives of this noticeboard, there are indidents of wikis that are more active than this one that editors have determined have an insignificant number of editors. Even if the number of recent editors are ignored and just the raw Special:ListUsers is taken into consideration, in the ~7 years this wiki has existed, only 166 editors have made any edits. Compare that to other wikis even on the same wikia domain, most wikis that are actually linked from Wikipedia have tens of thousands of editors on their Special:ListUsers page, and hundreds of edits every single day from dozens of editors. These wikis have an active community with content quality control and that quickly spots and reverts vandalism within minutes, and this one cannot make that claim. Adding a few images to the bottom of the page does not make it a unique resource because (1) those images are nowhere near the focus of that article, and (2) it is not a unique resource because those same images can be found all over the internet, hardly unique. - SudoGhost 00:02, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Let's see you back that up. Show me one other site where all those dozens of international book cover editions can be seen in one place, well organized. Or show me where you can see all of them spread out over different sites, which would be nowhere near as useful. And I know of at least two editors who will be watching The Sacred Scrolls and reverting any vandalism. There hasn't been much in the past, so there wasn't much call for revert activity. It's been a stable site, as was demonstrated at Talk:Planet of the Apes (novel)#EL. Future unreverted vandalism at The Sacred Scrolls is not a legitimate concern. ELNO #12 does not define a required number of editors. - Gothicfilm (talk) 02:53, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

"WP:ELNO #12 does not define a required number of editors" is a red herring that nobody ever suggested, so what point were you trying to make? This wiki has no editing community, and that's critical for the reasons given above. When your defense is that Wikipedia editors will be cleaning up an external wiki, which didn't happen until it was pointed out on the talk page, that should show you something; the wiki should be able to keep its content in check. When an external site has to do it for them, that's a huge red flag, in addition to the other reasons given. On the subject of the images, a simple Google search shows each and every book cover there, and it looks like that wiki just did what I did, used a Google search, and saved the results and put them on their site. This is supposed to make the site unique somehow? - SudoGhost 12:13, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

A huge red flag? In your opinion. You say the site is in danger of vandalism, even though it has little history of such, and when that concern is answered you don't like how unlikely future vandalism might be dealt with. All that matters is that it gets dealt with. And a Google search is not a good replacement for a well-organized site. - Gothicfilm (talk) 15:27, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Unless you can get WP:ELNO #12 changed, the opinion that "future vandalism" might be dealt with is irrelevant, since that's not the concern nor it is why the link does not belong. It's not an issue of not liking it, it's that what hypothetically happens in the future is not a reason to include a link. WP:ELNO does not give that provision, because that amounts to WP:CRYSTAL and neatly avoids the concerns that were brought up. Google-search results on a website also does not make it unique, so it also fails WP:ELNO #1. - SudoGhost 15:37, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Google-search results on a website? What's your evidence of that? Search results for images are not well organized. - Gothicfilm (talk) 16:07, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

The fact that every single image can be easily found through a quick Google search means the site is not unique, the criteria is not "well-organized". - SudoGhost 19:27, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

In your opinion. It is certainly better organized than a search result for images. - Gothicfilm (talk) 01:30, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

How can it be both better organized and unique? If it has something to be better organized than, then it is not unique. - SudoGhost 03:25, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

• Support I'm only going to quickly recap my comments at the article, since I have no desire to repeat everything I've already written. Three points were raised in opposition to the link, although I only opposed it on one: WP:ELNEVER. The copyright issue was addressed as detailed above, so I no longer have a problem with its inclusion in the article.

1. WP:ELNO#1 – Opposition to the site has been that the page in itself does not constitute "a unique resource". The criteria however applies to the site, not uniquely to a page on the site. The site hosts over 1600 pages of content which provides substantial coverage of the topic. It's my conclusion the site is a unique resource, in that it provides substantial coverage that we don't provide, and are likely to never provide, so linking to the site is justifiable in this regard, and a link to this page inparticular seems reasonable.
2. WP:ELNO#12 – The interpretation of this guideline has proven contentious due to the ambiguous nature of the language. How is one supposed to interpret a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors? In one sense it's a drop in the ocean compared to the Star Wars open wiki, in another it easily surpasses the number we ask for when establishing a Wikiproject. Personally I think a raw number is somewhat arbitrary—a hundred editors can be more productive than a thousand depending on their commitment. Maybe the best way of looking at this is whatever it takes to create a substantial amount of content, which appears to be the case here.

• At the end of the day, it wouldn't hurt the article if the link weren't present, but it does provide readers with another research avenue if they don't find the information they are looking for on Wikipedia. Betty Logan (talk) 03:12, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

• That sort of rationale renders the entirety of WP:ELNO #12 moot then. Consensus has determined that insignificant editing community means that an external link is inappropriate. That does not somehow mean that "there's no bright line number, so we can safely ignore a community consensus-established requirement". I have looked, and I cannot find a single instance of an external link being appropriate with such few editors, in fact wikis that have a lot more editors have still been shown to be insufficient in terms of WP:ELNO #12. If nobody editing is somehow still significant, what could possibly be insignificant? The external link fails WP:ELNO #12, and only weak protestations have been given in response saying "well it's a vague guideline so let's ignore it". In that case, WP:CONLIMITED would apply and the external link would be removed anyways, since the larger consensus addresses something, and that reasoning has panned out here, any consensus which would purposely ignore that issue would be superseded by the relevant guideline. A WikiProject is not an external link, so that's a horrible example, and has nothing to do with WP:ELNO #12 in any capacity. You asked how you're supposed to interpret a substantial number? Well for starters, the wiki's RecentChanges should have someting other than two edits from IPs, one of which is vandalism. That you are unsure how to interpret a consensus-established rule doesn't mean it can be ignored, because by all measures this wiki falls short. - SudoGhost 12:00, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

• Support inclusion of the link. Along with Betty's summation of WP:ELNO#12 WP:IAR would certainly apply when all of the covers are available at one site. Far better one site than creating a linkfarm to numerous sites. MarnetteD | Talk 07:02, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
• Support As has been stated above, the site does provide a unique resource beyond what is available here as required by WP:ELNO #1. In regard to WP:ELNO #12, while the concern of future vandalism is legitimate there is no evidence of any history of vandalism on this site. In fact, even the few incidents that strangely occured in the last few days were quickly reverted. So the site does have a history of stablity as required by WP:ELNO #12. Of course, if at some time in the future that is no longer the case, the link can be removed from the page here at that time. Finally, I agree that WP:IAR applies. The link does improve and enhance the article here. SonOfThornhill (talk) 14:36, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

• See Wikipedia:What "Ignore all rules" means#What "Ignore all rules" does not mean. The site is neither unique (even a Google search can replicate the images, and that appears to be where the images came from), nor does it have an active community, and the raw number of editors isn't significant in the first place. "No history of vandalism" is not a requirement, a history of stability is required in addition to having a significant number of editors. Nobody has edited the wiki in over a week; obscurity and stagnation is not the same as stability, since the reason for that requirement is an assurance that vandalism will be quickly dealt with, and that has not been shown. - SudoGhost 14:46, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

What "Ignore all rules" means is an essay, not policy. You keep repeating the same opinions over and over. Soon this page will be as expansive as the article's Talk page. - Gothicfilm (talk) 16:22, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

...and yet what it says is true, WP:IAR is a policy...but isn't being used correctly here. You also keep repeating the same comments over and over, yet yours lack any explanation as to how it meets WP:ELNO #12 other than saying it's a vague thing, and therefore can somehow be ignored. - SudoGhost 19:27, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

That was responded to above and below. We're not obligated to follow your opinion of what is correct use of policy. And I'm not writing out paragraphs of the same thing repeatedly. - Gothicfilm (talk) 01:30, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

A diff supporting that assertion would help your case, because it is not "my opinion"; I did not decide that WP:IAR should specifically point out that essay, that was the result of countless editors and discussion because WP:IAR is often cited inappropriately. You don't have to "follow my opinion" because it's not my opinion, it's Wikipedia's consensus-formed opinion. - SudoGhost 03:20, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

• I don't think it belongs. Wikia is an open Wiki with little or no editorial control exercised over its contents. However good a page looks, it is likely to be original research and of little or no value. We should not be linking to it. --Biker Biker (talk) 14:59, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

• Support It has been demonstrated how the site is useful and valuable to readers who are interested in the article's subject. And I also agree that WP:IAR applies. The link does improve and enhance the article as a starting point for research. - Gothicfilm (talk) 16:30, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

• Weak support. I can see merit in the arguments of both sides here. I'd almost always avoid placing such an external link in an article myself, and I fear the slippery slope that could lead from acceptance of such links. However, WP:ELNO is a guideline, not a policy, and as such its "bright lines" really aren't all that bright and can be overridden by WP:IAR fairly easily: all that should be required is someone making a reasonable case that the link provides a uniquely useful resource for our readers (that case was made) and that it's unlikely to do any harm (that case was made, too). I don't like it, but that's neither here nor there. Rivertorch (talk) 17:18, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

• Be careful with saying "WP:ELNO is a guideline, not a policy", that suggests that only policies should be followed. Being a guideline doesn't mean it can be ignored when inconvenient, guidelines must be followed unless a good reason is given to ignore it. WP:N is a guideline, and WP:AFD shows that a guideline is not something that can be ignored just because a given thing is "unique" or "useful". Not to mention that in this case, "unique" is demonstrably false, it's not unique if the images can be found elsewhere, especially when the images are nowhere near the focus of that site, and are only found buried deep in the page after a bit of searching. - SudoGhost 19:37, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

A bit of searching? One has only to scroll down the page, and at least five here found it useful despite that hardship. "Unique" is not demonstrably false because of a Google search - you could obviously say that about anything on the web. And the most important rule is WP:Consensus. - Gothicfilm (talk) 01:40, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

I really truly do not see how something is unique if it also exists elsewhere, that goes against the very definition of the word unique. You could indeed "obviously" say that most images on the web are not unique, and that is why images aren't convincing factors in determining if a resource is unique, especially a wiki that took the images from elsewhere on the internet. - SudoGhost 03:20, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

• No further comment after two and a half days. Five support restoring the link to the site. Two are against it. I think this process is done. Thanks to those who contributed. - Gothicfilm (talk) 16:04, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

"Useful and unique" seems to be the consensus here, but that's only half the issue. Nobody has even tried to argue that the number of editors on the wiki is substantial, only that WP:ELNO #12 is too vague or should be ignored. A small group of editors, however, cannot decide that WP:ELNO #12 can be ignored or that it does not apply; the wider community consensus would supersede that, and that is policy. - SudoGhost 03:20, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

I'd suggest an RfC at this point. I consider the consensus shaky, and SudoGhost makes a valid point about local consensus. Rivertorch (talk) 07:50, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Betty, MarnetteD and SonOfThornhill all addressed WP:ELNO #12 in their Support statement. And I agree with the position that it is met - the site is useful and valuable to readers who are interested in the article's subject. I posted a request asking for more comments at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Novels. - Gothicfilm (talk) 05:22, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Chartstats.com and Chartarchive.org

Noted amongst bot requests :- Wikipedia:Bot_requests#Chartarchive.org

Apparently compiling UK chart data isn't allowed by Database rules.

Does anyone know of a US source for equivalent data so Feist applies? Sfan00 IMG (talk) 09:53, 5 April 2013 (UTC)