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Request concerning Dovidroth
User who is submitting this request for enforcement
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
25 August 2023 After I made several constructive edits to the Ariel Sharon article, he reverted all of them, without even bothering to specify which edits he saw controversial.
3 September 2023 Instead of joining the discussion I initiated to gain consensus for contested edits, Dovidroth launched into ad hominem against me, and made a series of false accusations, including "petty edit-warring" for reverting unconfirmed users, "backtracking" for constructively reverting myself when convinced that my edit was not useful, and calling my concerns regarding neutrality of an article "stupid comments". He then concluded that I am "clearly not here to contribute but to do activism."
3 September 2023 He has also followed me to other articles and reverted an edit on the Anti-Defamation League article, despite that myself and two other editors reached consensus on its inclusion in the talk page, one of whom who was previously opposing it completely. Dovidroth did not bother to engage in the talk page in this instance as well.
Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
16 April 2023 I have previously raised concerns here about the background of Dovidroth, as he clearly states on his userpage that he is an employee of the National Library of Israel, which is a state institution partly owned by the Israeli government, and goes against WP:COIPOLITICAL: "Government employees should not edit articles about their agencies, government, political party, political opponents, or controversial political topics." However, no action was taken against him then. Especially worrying is the fact that he often edits Wikipedia during official working hours, and considering there is a history of similar incidents on Wikipedia relating to Israel/Palestine.
Mentioned by name in the Arbitration Committee's Final Decision linked to above.
Additional comments by editor filing complaint
User Dovidroth has demonstrated: a willingness to revert my multiple edits without distinction and followed me across multiple articles; an unwillingness to discuss these edits on the articles' talk pages; and a willingness to engage in making false accusations, derogatory comments and ad hominem. All of this combined with being an employee of the Israeli government, while editing articles exclusively related to WP:ARBPIA, raises serious concerns about quality and neutrality of Arab-Israeli conflict articles, and makes reaching a consensus on the talk page difficult by avoiding and/or poisoning the discussions. This edit-warring behavior and harassment must be stopped.
Thank you Darfrog24 for your statement. Note that as you can see in the first diff, and as mentioned above, he reverted multiple edits without distinction; which is honestly difficult if not impossible to view in good faith. It is impossible that he found none of my edits constructive.
As for the third diff, it doesn't have to be long, the removal/reversion was made after multiple users reached a consensus on its inclusion; this can also only be described as disruptive editing. The fact that he didn't check the talk page is only symptomatic of a general trend in which he doesn't engage, as seen by preferring ad hominem. He never edited the Anti-Defamation League article before, so it is unlikely to be by coincidence. He also reverted edits I made on other articles in the past few weeks including Israel, Golda Meir, David Ben-Gurion and Qibya massacre.
Again, continuation of throwing false and baseless accusations. WP:Activism is an essay not a policy. An essay which defines an "activist" as one who "put the goal of promoting their views above that of improving the encyclopedia." That applies to users who ignore talk page discussions and consensus reaching. An essay which states that the best way to spot "activists" is through hostility (I never called anyone's remarks "stupid"), removal of information (I am adding reliably sourced information not removing it), and conflict of interest (I do not work for a government).
It is definitely a problem to be working for the Israeli government and have a controversial editing behavior on Wikipedia. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:25, 4 September 2023 (UTC) Moved from Davidroth's section. Please make comments only in your own section. SeraphimbladeTalk to me23:15, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Seraphimblade: Thank you for your time and effort in reviewing the request. I have opened at multiple opportunities talk page discussions to resolve the disputes, which were either ignored by the other user or redirected away from the content and towards ad hominem. Furthermore, I have never reverted edits despite the consensus that was simultaneously being established on the talk page. And for these two reasons as evidenced by diffs above I feel that there was an unfair equivalency in the comment regarding edit warring between myself and the other user. Makeandtoss (talk) 18:40, 8 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Dovidroth
I apologize for the uncivil remark, but this comment in an unrelated subject to the conflict and Makeandtoss' pattern of POV editing in Israeli biographies is what, in my opinion, indicate he's coming to Wikipedia with a clear activist agenda. Regarding the previous accusation by the anonymous IP, as you can see I made the original edit that later this user restored, so the prohibition on restoring edits by banned editors clearly doesn't apply, since he was restoring me and not the other way around. And although it's true that in this case he made his revert before me, I had no idea he was a banned user at the time. Apparently he was blocked for "gaming the system", but I reverted Makeandtoss for adding a POV content in the lead without discussing first and against previous consensus by multiple RfCs in the talk page of that article. In other words, I would have restored the previous 'status quo' regardless.
I will also note that Makeandtoss' complaint that I work for the National Library of Israel was determined to not be a problem at all, not simply that "no action was taken" as he states here. Dovidroth (talk) 15:03, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Statement by Darkfrog24
I've had no previous contact with either complainant or Dovidroth and to my memory have never edited the Israel/Palestine articles. I'd like to thank Makeandtoss for filing this complaint in a way that gets straight to the point.
First diff: Dovidroth does indeed give a reason for the reversion. Dovidroth believes the issue is "Avoid redundancy, details, bad grammar and undue in lead." Dovidroth's belief does not have to be correct for this to be a good faith edit. However, the diff being reverted includes assertions that Israeli settlements were illegal (with in-text links to Wikipedia articles). I think the complainant is insinuating that that was the real reason for the revert.
Second diff: Dovidroth accuses Makeandtoss of POV-pushing. I do indeed see the words "stupid" and "petty." This strikes me as uncivil.
Third diff: I went back and read the whole talk page discussion. It isn't very long [2]. It's possible Dovidroth disregarded it but it's also possible Dovidroth didn't notice or know about it. Makeandtoss, was this the only time Dovidroth reverted you on other articles or is this an example of something done many times? Dovidroth says on their talk page that they like editing articles about Judaism. It's possible they're not actually following you around.
The violation I see here is of WP:CIVIL. The idea that Dovidroth is an Israeli government employee does give me concern, but it sounds like it's been asked and answered in a previous filing less than six months ago. Darkfrog24 (talk) 12:35, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This behavior does not seem to rise to a sanctionable level. Civility might be a problem if habitual but I see no evidence for that. Absent evidence for promotion of Israeli government propaganda, I don't see a problem with the NLI employment. The counter accusation, Makeandtoss' pattern of POV editing in Israeli biographies is what, in my opinion, indicate he's coming to Wikipedia with a clear activist agenda should be made first at user talk page, not only in response to a complaint.Selfstudier (talk) 18:00, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Dovidroth
This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
No comment on the filing, but since I was pinged about the revert restriction I imposed: While General Blorp (talk · contribs) was behaviorally suspicious and likely the sockmaster behind Focusinjatin (talk · contribs), they were not blocked as being a sock of anybody else, so there is no violation of the restriction for Dovid to have restored edits by them, even if Makeandtoss used the edit summary "rv banned user". I can't say it's a great idea, mind you, but it's not a violation. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 22:51, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Most of this seems to be a content dispute, but the edit calling someone "stupid" and "petty" leaves me less than impressed, to say the least. Since both editors' interests are in the same area, I'm not going to see the occasional overlap as support for any accusation of "stalking" or the like. However, I'm inclined to warn Dovidroth for incivility, and both editors for edit warring. I don't think we've reached the level of sanctions yet, but both of you are headed in that direction. SeraphimbladeTalk to me23:25, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Marcelus
User who is submitting this request for enforcement
The 0rr was previously downgraded to a 1rr before following a successful AN appeal [18]. I remember supporting his 0rr appeal as he previously seemed to understand the disruption caused by his editwarring in the past. I ran into him again while commenting on some WP:RM's (namely [19]), noticed his contributions and saw what looks like a 1rr evasion to me.
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
I have no comment regarding the removal of the content itself per se, but am rather more concerned about the potential breach of the 1RR here. Also, regarding the previous report - at the time, I was less mature and less experienced and I am sorry for all disruption caused by said report, and it was made in haste without considering the full background of the situation. I'm not siding with anyone here, just that Marcelus may have broken his 1RR recently. As long as Marcelus self reverts and discusses on a Talk page or something further regarding the content without any more reverts I am OK for letting go without sanctions this time. #prodraxisconnect14:31, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Ostalgia Yeah, a 2 way IBAN seems pretty reasonable here due to a past history of Cukrakalnis and Marcelus edit warring with each other, per both the diffs Cukrakalnis provided of Marcelus breaking his 1RR on Landsberg family and per those two ANEW reports which got both parties blocked before for edit warring [21][22]. I think that Cukrakalnis getting some sort of revert restriction or turning Marcelus' 1RR to a 0RR again might also be a good idea due to the history of editwarring. #prodraxisconnect00:59, 17 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Marcelus
I am sorry that my edits were interpreted by Prodraxis as a violation of the rule, at the time of making them I had no such realization.
The first edition was simply a restoration of the well-sourced content ([23]) removed by Cukrakalnis. I immediately started a discussion about it on the C discussion page ([24]), since I didn't want it to turn into edit waring. Also, I immediately added a new source ([25]), since C had objections to one of the original two (that's why I didn't consider it revert). Then I added some more new content ([26]). C then removed the mention of the Polish name again, but giving again as the reason his objections to only one source - Tomaszewski 1999 ([27]). This seemed to me to be wrong and against the rules, so I restored the Polish name again with three sources, but did not restore the information that only Tomaszewski 1999 (objected by C) confirmed, that is, regarding the household language ([28]).
@Cukrakalnis: The things you say about sources used by me do not prove that they are unreliable, but only that there is a difference between them and other sources. Besides, in many places this difference is non-existent: native language is not the same as the household language, identity can be mixed (not surprising in this region), his wife's identity poses difficulties, etc. Two things can be true at the same time. This is not the place to discuss sources and content, I'm just showing that your comments are largely unfounded, and the changes I've made do not cause conflict and are not based on unreliable sources.
The edits by Marcelus were not at all well-sourced, which is why I removed them in the first place. As I made clear in my edits [29], [30], the sources used by Marcelus for the person's Polish name are not at all accurate or reliable when describing his private life, because they get:
1. the person's ethnicity wrong,
2. his native language wrong,
3. his wife's name wrong,
4. his wife's ethnicity wrong.
A Polish name does not belong in Plechavičius' article any more than the translation of his name in all of the other languages he knew (Latvian, Russian, German, French, etc.), but including all of them would be absurd considering that the person was a Lithuanian, so, obviously only his Lithuanian name should be there.
PS: it is not true that I objected only to one of sources given by Marcelus, because certainly more than one had mistakes - T 1999 said his wife was Polish and gave the wrong name - which ruins its credibility for Plechavičius' private life; the P 2003 source called Plechavičius a "Polish aristocrat" when he wasn't - he had noble roots, but not in the Polish, but Lithuanian/Samogitian nobility, and was the son of a Lithuanian farmer. Either way, such flagrant mistakes discredit the use of such sources. Cukrakalnis (talk) 11:57, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Statement by Ostalgia
I think the sanction applied by Tamzin is proportional to the infraction, and just want to point out that this is the nth case involving Marcelus and Cukrakalnis. Given the huge overlap between Lithuanian and Polish history, and the evident bad blood between them, perhaps a 2-way IBAN could help prevent further disruption. Ostalgia (talk) 20:47, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Statement by Piotrus
As noted, I'd be happy to mentor Marcelus by answering any and all qurries they have and/or offering mediation if discussions gets heated and I am informed of the situation (I am also relatively familiar with the topic area). That said, while I am active and can answer wiki queries within a day or so, there's not much I can do after the revert except explain why it was a bad idea :P That said, I think 0RR is unfeasible and if it is applied, I'd advise Marcelus to not edit at all. Seriously, 0RR is just asking to be banned later or abstain from editing. The fact that Marcelus survived 0RR once alraedy should be enough to give him more ability to edit regularly, under 1RR+mentorship. On a side note, INHO 1RR is also better for seeing how an editor behaves, since it offers a bit of a rope that generally should not be used. Perhaps a compromise might be 0RR for the next month, then 1RR for the next few months (indef until an appeal here at 6-12 month mark?). And my early mentor advice to Marcelus would be: 1) don't revert anything without asking me first and 2) try to stay away from any controversies in the Polish-Lithuanian topics, or any controversies in general, as it is too easy to make a bad edit in such articles. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here03:40, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Marcelus
This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
I accepted the downgrade to 1RR previously. This is a blatant violation, and Marcelus' comment above shows no mitigation, just an acknowledgment that he did it, doesn't see it as a violation, and thinks it was Cukrakalnis' edits that were "against the rules". I have blocked for 2 months, on the lower end of the escalating block pattern for someone whose previous EW blocks were for 2 weeks and 1 month. I see this as the minimum appropriate sanction here, though, and would like to hear from others as to whether something more is warranted. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 17:28, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm disappointed. I thought Marcelus was making progress and I was happy to see that the restriction I imposed was lessened. As the downgraded restriction was violated but there were few problems before the downgrade, I would re-impose the 0RR. I think Marcelus still has much to offer the topic; he just needs to lay off the undo button. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts?21:38, 17 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding comments on User talk:Marcelus, I am not necessarily opposed to reducing to 1 month in exchange for agreement to mentorship by Piotrus (the "hard" kind of mentorship, where if Piotrus says not to do something, you listen), but would like to hear HJ Mitchell and Courcelles' (and anyone else') thoughts. This is separate from the matter of reinstating the 0RR, which I'm inclined to support. Marcelus, regarding your email about Cukrakalnis, you're welcome to post those thoughts on-wiki, but I otherwise have nothing to say. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 19:58, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Piotrus is a very experienced editor, including specifically in this area. If he's willing to do that, I'm willing to let him try. I still think reimposition of the 0RR, at least for an initial period, would be necessary, but maybe with a shorter period than the standard 6 months before that can be reexamined. SeraphimbladeTalk to me06:10, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Trakking
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Trakking
User who is submitting this request for enforcement
13:54, 16 September 2023 (UTC) Canvassing someone to the discussion about their editing warring at PragerU in a clear attempt to influence the outcome of the discussion, and calling another editor an "angry leftist activist".[reply]
16:47, 16 September 2023 (UTC) Trakking claims there's "nothing to discuss" regarding their edits to PragerU and says that the "fact-check" done by them and the editor they canvassed is enough to have their edits restored.
Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, first on 15 January 2023 and again on 29 March 2023 (see the system log linked to above).
Additional comments by editor filing complaint
This is not all inclusive, there is likely other problematic behavior exhibited by this editor, but I've already spent a lot of time putting this together to show Trakking's consistent problems with incivility and edit-warring. They were warned about calling editors they disagree with "left-wing activists" on 29 March 2023. Their talk page shows at least six warnings for edit warring, including some by admins that could be considered a final warning. ––FormalDude(talk)19:38, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Trakking
This only concerns some minor edits—nothing serious.
Yes, I called a guy a leftist activist once. Why? Because he reverted different people's edits with phrases like "another rightist who tries to change this part of the article". Fun fact: I have had friendly and fruitful discussions with this guy afterwards. I consider him a valuable partner on Wikipedia.
Two of my reverts at the template were because users mistook my edit for another edit, which they wanted to revert. One of the users apologized for his mistake while the other one has remained silent without reverting again.
Someone insinuated today that I may have canvassed a guy, but this is a false accusation, because if you follow the history, I was reverting this guy's edits on another page. He is NOT my friend.
I only made two reverts in the PragerU article. This edit was my own addition of information, which is not considered a revert. There were other users edit-warring on that article as well, but I promise to stay off it henceforth.
Andrevan: I have only listened to a few short videos from PragerU and it was years ago. I am not a fan, I believe their material is a bit silly and oversimplified. I was trying to reach neutrality on Wikipedia. Half the introduction consisted of criticism, which poorly reflected the article in its entirety. Then I agreed to keep the criticism, given that we fixed the factual errors contained within it. The discussion at Talk became quite heated, but I kept my cool. Trakking (talk) 22:40, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Andrevan: I did not call any user a leftist activist; I referred to the critics cited in the article, many of which were leftist activists. It is understandable that they are critical, and it ought to be included in the article, but it should not cover half the introduction. As per Wikipedia/Manual of Style/Lead section, the introduction should ”establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points”. Trakking (talk) 22:53, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Dlthewave: I provide a lot of quality edits to Wikipedia, I receive many thanks, I have many polite discussions, I am a teacher in real life etc. Last time someone accused me of something (turned out they mistook me for another user), I read answers from random people I had never seen before, saying, ”Trakking is a trusted user.” The issues here are minor, as Springee stated. With all the craziness going on at Wikipedia—vandalism, threats etc.—this is nothing. You are wasting your time. But I promise I will never enter an edit war again. Trakking (talk) 23:20, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Just wanted to point out as well, for any neutral observer, that FormalDude has been canvassing people to come here in the Talk for PragerU, knowing that they were anti-PragerU and/or opponents of me in the debate. The only neutral person here is Springee. Trakking (talk) 07:19, 17 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@TrangaBellam: That is disgusting of you. I am a CATHOLIC and a LIBERTARIAN—which places me at the very opposite of national socialism. In every discussion on national socialism, I quoted scholar Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn as one of my intellectual heroes—a Catholic libertarian who wrote volominous books against the ideology of contemporary national socialism. Please apologize for your terrible comment and remove it. Trakking (talk) 16:01, 17 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Statement by Springee
This seems premature. I think FormalDude is jumping the gun on this complaint. While they provided a long list of diffs, about half are from quite some time back. They make it look like Trakking has obviously violated 3RR but looking at the edit history I'm not seeing that. I see 1 original edit (08:55am) and then 3 other good faith attempts at alternative compromise wording. Yeah, it probably would have been better to go to the talk page after the first compromise edit was reverted but this isn't a simple case of someone making a BOLD edit then restoring it 3 times. The talk page comment is unadvisable since it impugns the motives of other editors however, I do think some of the talk page comments here [[32]] and revert comment like, " when Republicans became anti-truth, truth became "leftist"", while not directly attacking any editor, are not exactly bringing the temperature down either. Honestly, I think a quick close with some trout small trout for Trakking for the talk page comment and additional trouting for FormalDude bringing such a minor issue to these boards. Disclaimer: Involved in the general topic but not the specific discussion in question) Springee (talk) 22:13, 16 September 2023 (UTC) @FormalDude: also correcting accidental "ForumDude" to "FormalDude" with apologies Springee (talk) 22:23, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Andrevan, the problem is you haven't shown what you are claiming and certainly demanding a citeban would require some really strong evidence of wrong doing which hasn't been shown here. Even the TE claim is weak. Springee (talk) 22:39, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm active at the PragerU article but uninvolved in the current discussion. Diff #8 popped up on my watchlist and raised my eyebrows - It's not appropriate to remove all mention of criticism from the lead with some vague handwave about "leftist criticism". Diff #9 is an immediate reinstatement of the same content, 9 minutes later, without discussion. This was bright-line edit warring.
Dismissing editors in the discussion as "left-wing activists" and pinging a different set of editors (diff #1) is also entirely inappropriate, and they pull the same stunt again in Diff #11. The fact that these edits span 6 months is not a mitigating factor, rather it shows that they have not learned their lesson despite having received a number of talk page warnings about edit warring and civility during that time. It's clear that folks have had enough of this incivility and tendentiuous editing and it's time for soemthing stronger than a slap on the wrist. –dlthewave☎23:03, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I can tell, Trakking first appeared on my radar back in December 2022. It might seem odd to bring up behaviour from so long ago but I think it is relevant here because it is so similar to the much more recent behaviour at PragerU (in which I am involved).
This establishes the pattern of POV editing that we see, on and off, to this day. The current dispute over on PragerU is similar in many ways. Trakking yoinked a chunk of text, with a dubious edit summary, and got into a small edit war, only taking to the Talk page when somebody else started a thread. A pattern of removing content for POV reasons and then not respecting consensus is well established. When things did not go Trakking's way they canvassed AbiquiúBoy into joining the fray. AbiquiúBoy is a new user who could easily have stepped on a rake editing such an article! Fortunately, AbiquiúBoy didn't step on any rakes and focused instead on trying to improve the chunk that Trakking had tried to remove. I'm not happy about the canvassing but I don't think that AbiquiúBoy has done anything wrong and, even if he had, that wouldn't entirely be his fault even if a more experienced user would probably have known to be a bit more cautious about being canvassed.
So, what should we do here? I don't think we need a siteban but we do need to do something. It is clear that Trakking has a POV that they can't or won't let go of. Maybe a topic ban from post-1945 US politics (broadly construed) and maybe from other global far-right related topics would make sense? --DanielRigal (talk) 23:59, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I really don't think that FormalDude posting a short, neutral notice about this case on Talk:PragerU, a shared place that is directly relevant to the case, constitutes canvassing. It wasn't an attempt to bring in specific individuals or to tilt the scales. It wouldn't have prompted me to dig into Trakking's behaviour if Trakking wasn't already vaguely on my radar due to previous behaviour. It is in no way comparable to the canvassing that Trakking did and for Trakking to bring it up here (see above) and use it to question almost everybody's impartiality seems like an attempt to draw a false equivalence. Also, the way Trakking assumes that readers of Talk:PragerU are "anti-PragerU and/or opponents of me in the debate" shows an inability to WP:AGF and a general WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality, with maybe a bit of WP:OWN sprinkled in. This harks back to the false accusation of "trolling" back in December and suggests that Trakking is still incapable of collaborative editing on sensitive topics. --DanielRigal (talk) 12:57, 17 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, being an adherent of Christianity (or any damn religion) does not automatically preclude anyone from being a Nazi or espousing views that are sympathetic/whitewashing of Nazism and similar fascist ideologies. I have no interest in knowing who are your intellectual heroes - your edits speak for yourself. TrangaBellam (talk) 16:21, 17 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Speaking as one of the editors who was called a "left-wing activist" on article talk by Trakking, I am most certainly involved here. A few points:
I will reiterate what I said on their user talk page, that the kind of ad hominem comment of which Trakking appears to make common practice is very clearly at odds with the principle of "comment on content, not contributors." I see also that their response to my post was essentially to dismiss this principle:Well, you were actively pushing for a left-wing perspective, so I characterized you as left-wing activists. That's certainly not a helpful attitude, and not conducive to long-term success on a project where we must collaborate with folks who fall along a wide spectrum of perspectives. Trakking, if I may address you directly: it doesn't matter what you believe about me or anyone else. You're not permitted to say that here. WP:CIVILITY is a core principle for a reason. We need to be able to collaborate across differences. From my point of view, and apparently from the point of view of most editors here, many of the things you consider to be "left-wing perspectives" are just eminently mainstream ideas. But you've never seen me calling you a "right-wing activist" on article talk (nor have I accused you of showing fascist tendencies as you once did to me). That's because I respect the rules that allow this project to function. Such allegations –– which are indeed serious –– need to be reserved for noticeboards like this one.
I would suggest to TrangaBellam that leaping to WP:NONAZIS in the case of Trakking is not appropriate either. I say this as someone who's spent a lot of my time on Wikipedia dealing with actual Nazis in the race & intelligence topic area. Trakking certainly has shown that they have unorthodox ideas about what the word "Nazi" means (they've even demonstrated that above by implying that one cannot be a Catholic or libertarian and also a Nazi, though one need only point to prominent cases like Carl Schmitt or certain fans of Ron Paul to falsify such an outlandish claim). But Trakking displaying a pattern of POV-pushing against consensus to portray Nazism as a form of socialism does not make them a Nazi. It's certainly disruptive, but far less severe. They will, after all, not be successful.
If anyone is interested in my 2¢ here, I would suggest that Trakking is due for a logged warning to avoid edit warring and ad hominem remarks. The POV-pushing can and is being dealt with through the normal consensus process. If they still cannot abide by p&g, then a t-ban would be the logical next step. I do not think we're at the point where a site ban is called for.
Regarding the dispute over Template:Fascism sidebar, it does not appear that this was motivated by a particular POV. It seems like it was a bad case of edit warring and should be treated as such; from what I understand, it centred around the question of how to express Nazism in the sidebar.
I agree to an extent with Trakking over the dispute at PragerU. It seems like the critisicm section in the lede might be a little off balance when summarising what is in the body. Still, the paragraph should not be deleted in whole and a different approach should have been taken. It doesn't seem as if this was motivated by a particular POV and instead the issue should rather be what can be done to ensure that edit warring of this nature does not happen again. I would also note that of the three parties mainly involved in the initial part of the relevant talk page discussion, one party based their argument on their POV, another based it on some vague principles relating to how the content had "been in the article for several months" and "that starting such a discussion would be time-wasting", while Trakking based their argument on the manual of style. Out of these three parties, Trakking clearly took the best approach on the talk page. Willbb23422:03, 17 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Statement by Thebiguglyalien
Uninvolved except for previous interactions with these editors, but sometimes the quiet part needs to be said loud. An editor is making edits that clearly have a right-wing lean to them. FormalDude, Andrevan, Dlthewave, and TrangaBellam all came in swinging. Springee immediately came to the editor's defense. I could have told you all of that without even opening the discussion. These editors, virtually without fail, consistently advocate a specific ideological position regardless of the merits of an argument. Trakking is just the latest subject of this proxy war. Editors like this are a far bigger timesink than editors like Trakking. At what point does this become sanctionable tendentious editing? Thebiguglyalien (talk) 15:45, 19 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
After a brief discussion with one of the involved parties, I'm choosing to strike some of the more specific comments here. Reading them back, they do look like strong accusations. There is a broader problem of which these disputes are just a symptom, and it does need to be solved. But I have no grounds to say that any of these specific editors are at fault just because they're the ones who showed up to this specific dispute. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 02:25, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Result concerning Trakking
This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
I'm not at the point of a permaban. Yet. A topic ban would be functionally the same. But the diffs above certainly show a concerning pattern of conduct. I'm contemplating a short-to-medium-term site ban between a week and a month, combined with a revert restriction and a very strong logged warning about discussion style. I expect that will go one of two ways. Hopefully Trakking will take the hint that trying to brute force your preferred version through edit warring and insults is not the way Wikipedia works. If not, we've simply postponed the inevitable permaban. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts?21:31, 17 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I don't think we're at permaban stage either yet. However, someone who makes this edit (and especially with that edit-summary) lacks the competence to be editing hot-button political articles. Black Kite (talk)12:11, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I’m uncomfortable with the unspoken idea that seems to set in sometimes that where a topic ban would be “equal to a site ban” due to an editor’s focused activity on a topic that the bar to a topic ban should be higher. I’m not sure we have a great option available, as AP2 wouldn’t prevent the edit highlighted by Black Kite. Courcelles (talk) 12:44, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Courcelles I'm not necessarily suggesting this (I don't intend to formally endorse or oppose any sanction here), but under Wikipedia:Contentious topics § Contentious topic restrictions, isn't AE allowed to TBAN from beyond the scope of existing CTOPs? any other reasonable measures that are necessary and proportionate for the smooth running of the project. So a TBAN from, say, right-wing politics broadly construed, would be within our authority, if necessary and proportionate (I think?). -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 20:20, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe I'm just a bleeding-heart liberal but I'm inclined to give someone just a little bit of rope in a situation like this. If their opponents' assumptions that they have no interest or ability to contribute positively are correct, that will soon become clear. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts?20:34, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have a topic restriction indefinitely topic-banned from articles related to ethnic minority groups in the former Soviet Union, broadly construed. My violation 17 February 2023tendentious editing across multiple articles, particularly this editing spree on February 16 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8).
I admit it's my fault. Half a year has passed, I did not participate in disputes, I did not violate the rules. Request to the community to remove the restrictions from me. I won't break the rules.
In the last application Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement. 5 admins offered me to contribute on other topics, I have corrected the situation with the contribution accordingly. I translated and created about 100 articles mainly on architecture.
Out of two thousand edits, only three of my edits were cancelled, 1, 2, 3, and one article out of 100 was deleted. Last edit I just got the wrong city in Italy. Deleted article I didn't realise the vandal had created it before, as I was told it might be a fake. I received an Order of Merit for my great contribution to architecture, 5 commendations from various contributors.
I would like to point out that two participants who participated with me in disputes, one of them is blocked indefinitely, the second one later apologised three times for his actions in the wikipedia project at the very beginning, on Sockpuppet investigations/Dzurdzuketi, Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents and on Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement, if required I can provide diffs. Although the sanctions were only applied to me, the important thing is that the person acknowledged their mistakes and apologised for them. I don't have any questions about his edits. Here the person who argued with me says Rosguill, that I was not involved in those arguments, that he has no questions for me. On the contrary I can provide a fact where I supported him.--Товболатов (talk) 17:09, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
El_C Yes I agree with you that the topic about old arguments should not be added here, I was thinking about it myself whether it should be added or not. On errors, Yes I forgot to leave a signature sorry do not judge harshly, bad intent I had no ...respectfully --Товболатов (talk) 09:29, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
El_C Sinceramente non mi piace ricordare questi argomenti, ma se insistete vi restituirò il testo e vi fornirò le prove senza problemi. Ho solo pensato che gli altri partecipanti avrebbero pensato che volessi imbrogliarli. E per quanto riguarda gli argomenti controversi, non voglio modificare il sito, volevo scrivere alcuni articoli su Grozny, la mia città natale, e sulla Repubblica Cecena. Mi sono già scusato più volte qui per i miei errori nella controversia. Dopo il mio errore è passato mezzo anno, non ho creato problemi a nessuno qui, anzi, ho dato un grande contributo.--Товболатов (talk) 16:04, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Statement by Rosguill
Statement by (involved editor 2)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal request by Товболатов
Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)
Result of the appeal request by
Decline. When was this appeal even filed? You failed to sign + timestamp it, Товболатов. I realize it's in the history, but it isn't a start that inspires confidence. Without looking, I suppose it was after Sept 16, at least, in light of the report above this one. There seems to be reoccuring competence issues relating to both the English language and Wikipedia, like arbitration committee called arbitral (wrong venue for that btw), or edits that were reverted, called cancelled. There is zero evidence for anything on the third paragraph (e.g. "apologised three times," etc). The intent behind writing a statement such as: the administrator Rosguill before that twice offered me to make edits on other topics honestly eludes me. Other examples follow this trend.
This appeal seems to expect reviewers to gain familiarity with the disputes in question, likely for naught. Even just the format — like, adding all those Special:Diff links instead of piping them, makes reading this appeal challenging; its flow stunted. I get that there's a language barrier (and hey, English isn't my native tongue, either), but that's something that I think transcends that. I don't want to be unkind, but the appeal does not seem to have been that thoughtfully put together, My sense is that greater familiarity by the user of the project would be needed before being permitted to engage in contentious material again. And if, in the meantime, they are editing uncontroversial areas fine, all the better. But it probably will take considerable time to be up to par. P.S. For the reasons stated, it's likely that this appeal would have simply been archived without comment (i.e. failed by default). Pre-emptively, let's not no good deed it! El_C08:08, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Товболатов, you edited parts of your appeal text that I already replied to without even making a front-facing note that you did so. That is not okay. If a reviewer were to, say, read what I said about there being zero evidence for anything on the third paragraph (e.g. "apologised three times," etc), but don't see that 3rd paragraph because you had removed it entirely without such mention — what are they to think? Sorry, but I submit that, regardless of intent, an appeal isn't the place to learn these very basic things. El_C15:12, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Closetside
User who is submitting this request for enforcement
I reintroduced "allegedly" in the two places that I removed them. Would you say that the current version is sufficient? Do I have any more obligations in your opinion to correct my 1RR violation? If I do, please inform me of them. Closetside (talk) 16:51, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 10 September (see the system log linked to above).
Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Despite an earlier friendly warning on user talk page not to engage in 1R, editor did so shortly thereafter.
A scrutiny of recent edits at Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2023 shows a desire to tweak filers edits for little or no reason.
For what it is worth, the editor is new and moved straight into the topic area having gained 500 edits.
After being asked to self revert, editor made this edit which is not a self revert.
@Closetside: Please keep your comments in your own section. To respond anyway, originally, the material was added by another editor (on the same side of the fence as yourself), here and it was to that edit I added the words "allegedly" per the AP source. It seems to me that the simplest thing would be to restore the material to that point rather than the mangled POV grammatical nightmare created by yourself subsequently all with the sole intent of doing away with or downplaying the words "allegedly".Selfstudier (talk) 17:04, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
!-- Please notify the user against whom you request enforcement of the request (you may use == Notice of Arbitration Enforcement noticeboard discussion ==
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Closetside
I reintroduced the language of "allegedly" after being notified of my violation. I wrote that Israel "alleged" that and Israel backed up their "allegation." I believe the current version and the version before I violated 1RR are virtually the same. If a neutral third party disagrees with me, I'd be happy to revert back to Selfstudier's verison.
Update: I self-reverted per Selfstudier's interpretation of 1RR. I still want a neutral opinion on this because I disagree with Selfstudier's interpretation for reasons explained above. If the neutral opinion agrees with me, I will undo my self-reversion.
@Selfstudier:, pending a verdict from an uninvolved administrator, I will revert to the last version before I started editing. I will revert the IDF video sentence to your version of it. I believe the dispute’s ultimate resolution will be on the talk page. Do you agree with this plan?
After doing some reading, I understand I violated WP:1RR, by partly undoing @Selfstudier's contributions twice within a 24-hour period. 1RR (and 3RR) applies to any undoing of another contributor's edits. I restored the section to the state it was in before my violation. I request forgiveness from all offended parties and look forward to the positive contributions I will make to Wikipedia in the future. Closetside (talk) 20:47, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Closetside
This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Saintfevrier
User who is submitting this request for enforcement
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Saintfevrier
Hello. Please note that I have limited time due to a busy real-life schedule and this is one of the reasons why it took me so long to write here. The other reason is because I was waiting for a reply from T&S regarding the Wikimania-I mailing list before I got into editing on both attacks against me (Arb & Profringe). T&S handled all my requests promptly and respectfully and this time I can say they were the best players in this mess. I will not be inserting diffs, internal links, pings etc. at this stage as frankly I don't have the time. I hope to return soon and enrich the statement with the necessary links.
First of all: I'm a WP:SPA? That is downright outrageous! Have you checked how long I have had my Wikipedia account? Since February 2007. How many edits I have made across several Wikimedia projects (and on Greek Wikipedia), spanning a diverse range of subjects in the course of 15 years? How many Wikipedia in Education projects I have run? Is there a rule against veteran editors changing interests in the course of their presence on Wikipedia and choosing to edit specific topics?
"it's a slow edit war": first of all it is NOT an edit war: it is an attempt on my behalf to counteract the horrific slandering of the reputation of one of the finest scientists in the world (unless he has tricked the global scientific community into being among the ten most highly cited scientists at this moment). Secondly, it is slow because some of us have higher priorities in life than editing Wikipedia on a constant basis. We may even have health issues, hospitalisation etc. If and when I have the time and stamina to edit I prefer to gather material, find references and make larger blocks of edits rather than small ones. The paragraph on Covid-19, apart from being an effort to undermine his reputation and brand him a conspiracy theorist (which he quite clearly is NOT), was highly disproportionate to the work that Ioannidis has done in other fields. So I made it my mission to bring some balance to the article.
About Dermitzakis: I admit that the language I used was perhaps not neutral enough for Wikipedia. There is no intention for "puffery for Greek scientists". I will try to improve the article: it was rightly marked as seeming promotional and that was not my intention. However in the free time that I can allocate to Wikipedia, my priority is to set things straight on the Ioannidis article.
My next sitting at the computer will be for the "profringe" discussion, which is even more outrageous as Wikimania-I blocked my last reply to the list without warning me. I have no choice but to upload screenshots to Commons (of my own emails, i.e. no copyright issues) to let the community know the truth. It most certainly is NOT what they present it to be. Saintfevrier (talk) 08:20, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
apologies for exceeding the 500 word limit, I'm only doing this to offer clarifications to @El C:Screenshot of reply to Wikimania-l Planning your trip to Singapore for Wikimania 2023: in the discussion under way about John Ioannidis at Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard, a user labelled me as "profringe" on the grounds of a question I had asked on the Wikimania-I mailing list. The said user has even posted a link to the thread, which I consider outrageous because 1) what validates them to bring an irrelevant issue into the Ioannidis discussion? Am I being stalked, and are my activities being pooled to direct other Wikipedians to draw conclusions about me? 2) The Wikimania-I thread is incomplete: it lacks my last reply (sent on June 29), in which I apologised for possibly offending any LGBTQ members and that was not my intention. I got a bounce reply saying I was being moderated and that my reply would either be posted or I would get an explanation as to why it was rejected. Neither happened. So when T&S reached out to me to tell me that several members of the community had requested sanctions against me for my conduct on the list, I told them about the situation with the mailing list and they said they would reach out to their contact there and ask for an explanation (very courteous of them. It's also worth mentioning that they quickly removed pedophile content that I pointed them to and that had been on Wikipedia for who knows how long). They only got a reply from Wikimania-I on Sept. 18, after two months of pressure. The reply said that the email was not published to the list because I was removed from the list. Outrageous once again, since I had no notification whatsoever of being removed. If Wikimania-I had proceeded with publishing my email, even late, now, in September, it would have been fair and I would have pointed to my reply as evidence that I am NOT transphobic, I do NOT spend any time at all on anti-trans fora, on the contrary I follow trans individuals who are also very upset with gender self-identification in gender-designated spaces. Thus all the stalking and cross-posting and name-calling against me is utter nonsense owing to lack of transparency and false notifications on the part of the moderators of Wikimania-I. Under these circumstances, I had no choice but to upload a screenshot of my last reply to the list to defend myself against all this outpour of toxicity. I had already added the file as an external link on the Fringe Noticeboard discussion but I gather that didn't help much, so I'm inserting a thumbnail here. Hope this explanation helped sort things out, thanks for your time Saintfevrier (talk) 22:20, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Statement by Bon courage
Relatedly, this user has been largely responsible for
which is crammed with peackock language like "leading role", "first scientist", "seminal paper" etc. all without proper sourcing. Not sure what this adds up to (Puffery for Greek scientists?) but it's not good for Wikipedia to host articles like this. Bon courage (talk) 07:46, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Saintfevrier
This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
...waiting for a reply from T&S regarding the Wikimania-I mailing list before I got into editing on both attacks against me (Arb & Profringe)? I'm lost. El_C07:27, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
