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Current disputes

Rafida

– Closed as failed. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Albertatiran on 13:04, 12 April 2024 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Rafida (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Shadowwarrior8 (talk · contribs) Dispute overview In a series of edits, I revised and improved this article by removing unsourced or poorly-sourced claims and rewriting large parts of the text. I do this regularly to select articles, usually in preparation for GA submissions. Large parts of my edits were undone without due explanation by the user Shadowwarrior8. In particular, please see [1] and [2]. For a second time, one by one, I addressed the problematic bits of the article, this time carefully detailing each issue separately in its edit summary. Another user, Aqsian313, also helped with addressing some of the issues. For instance, he removed a sentence that I had earlier marked by the template. (Please see here.) All these edits were again undone by Shadowwarrior8. Please see here. This is when I took the issue to the talk page, which you can see here. In particular, Aqsian313 commented there in favor of my version of the article. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Talk:Rafida#Edit-warring How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? I'd like to ask you to undo the unexplained mass-revert [3] Summary of dispute by Shadowwarrior8 Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. I reverted a series of disruptive edits made by user Albertatiran which involved the removal of encyclopaedic sources with in-line citations (here) and insertion of several unsourced POV edits. (see the edit history of the page) The user was unable to bring any in-line citation as demonstrated in the talk page of the article. The user's proposed version cant be inserted because it consists of unsourced sectarian POV and removal of sourced content. This issue isnt even a content dispute, because unsourced POV claims have no place in wikipedia in the first place. Content disputes mostly occur when two or more editors differ over how to paraphrase information present in academic sources. On the other hand, the user Albertatiran removed academic sources by engaging in "idontlikeit"-style arguments. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 15:10, 13 April 2024 (UTC) Rafida discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Zeroth statement by possible moderator (Rafida) The filing editor did not notify the other editor, but the other editor has made a statement, so I am willing to try to moderate the dispute. The editors should list and notify the other editors who have discussed the dispute on the article talk page. I know nothing of the subject matter, and will expect the editors to provide any background information that is important. Please read DRN RuleA and state that you will follow the rules during the discussion. The purpose of content discussion is to improve the article, so I am asking each editor to state concisely what they want to change in the article (or what they want to leave the same that another editor wants to change). Robert McClenon (talk) 21:23, 14 April 2024 (UTC) Zeroth statements by editors (Rafida) @Robert McClenon: Thank you for moderating the discussion. Yes, I've read and will adhere to DRN RuleA. As for the outcome, I'd like the revision here to be undone. I'll also notify the other user who participated in the talk page discussion, Aqsian313, about this ongoing case. Albertatiran (talk) 09:33, 15 April 2024 (UTC) Thanks for notifying! I personally consider Albertatiran's version to be far better than the current one in terms of sources. Albertatiran removed poor sources such as alukah.net, Allama al-Hussein al-Houthi, Maulana Akbar Najibadi all of whom are nowhere close to WP:RS. Encyclopædia Britannica is a generally reliable source in my opinion, however it's articles are edited numerous times again and again like Wikipedia, so I do not regard it to be used on this article. One can just see the much-needed differences between Albertatiran's version and the pre-Albertatiran version If Shadowwarrior8 believes Albertatiran's version contains "sectarian POV", then the two can maybe discuss on changing the wording a bit, but Albertatiran's version is clearly more reliably sourced than the current one. Aqsian313 (talk • contribs) 9:52, 15 April 2024 (UTC) @Robert McClenon I was a bit busy, hence the late response. I have read the DRNA and shall engage in this discussion per the dispute resolution guidelines. What do I want to maintain in the article? I largely want to maintain this edit which the user Albertatiran wants to revert. (which would involve the removal of sourced content as I stated in the dispute summary). However, I am fine with the removal of sources such as 'alukah.net', 'Hussein al-Houthi', 'Akbar Najibadi' etc. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 11:28, 17 April 2024 (UTC) First statement by moderator (Rafida) It appears that the current version is that of Shaddowwarrior8. Albertatiran wants to revert Shaddowwarrior8's edits, and says that they have poor sources. Aqsian313 appears to agree and to support Albertatiran's removal of Shaddowwarrior8's edits. Shaddowwarrior8 has not replied to my request that they agree to the rules. If Shaddowwarrior8 does not make a statement within about 24 hours, I will close this thread due to incomplete participation, and will advise the editors who have said what they want to edit boldly. Are there any questions, or any final statements? Robert McClenon (talk) 05:06, 17 April 2024 (UTC) First statements by editors (Rafida) Second statement by moderator (Rafida) Rather than providing diffs comparing one version and another, I am now asking each editor to provide the actual wording that they propose to use, in the lede section and in the Definition section. After I have seen the different wordings side by side, we will try to reach a compromise. If you are willing to propose a compromise wording, please provide it also. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:33, 17 April 2024 (UTC) Second statements by editors (Rafida) @Robert McClenon: Thanks for the follow-up. What follows is the text I'd like to propose, which is borrowed from the version I advocated for in my first statement. In keeping with the common practice around here, references are omitted from the lede below. However, every claim there is already attributed in the body of the article. Albertatiran (talk) 10:56, 18 April 2024 (UTC) Rafida (Arabic: رافضة, romanized: Rāfiḍa, lit. 'rejectors') is a derogatory nickname applied to the majority of Shia Muslims for 'rejecting' the legitimacy of the first three caliphs, namely, Abu Bakr (r. 632–634), Umar (r. 634–644), and Uthman (r. 644–656), in favor of Ali ibn Abi Talib (r. 656–661), the cousin and son-in-law of the Islamic prophet Muhammad. Rooted in early Islamic history, the term Rafida is commonly used in Sunni polemics against Shi'ism. The charge that Shias have rejected the Truth is frequently cited by Sunni extremists to justify their acts of violence against the Shia community. This nickname has been reinterpreted favorably by some Shia scholars to signify Shias' rejection of their oppressive Sunni rulers. Definition The term Rafida or Rawafid (lit. 'rejectors', sg. Rafidi) is a derogatory nickname used by Sunni Muslims to describe Shia Muslims, at least those of them who 'reject' the legitimacy of the first three Muslim caliphs, namely, Abu Bakr (r. 632–634), Umar (r. 634–644), and Uthman (r. 644–656). One after another, these caliphs succeeded the Islamic prophet Muhammad after he died in 632 CE. In particular, the term Rafida is applied to Twelvers, who constitute the majority of the Shia community. Twelvers believe that Muhammad, shortly before he died in 632 CE, publicly designated his cousin and son-in-law, Ali ibn Abi Talib, as his successor at the Ghadir Khumm. According to Twelvers, early caliphs thus usurped Ali's right to succeed Muhammad. They also believe that Ali was succeeded by eleven of his descendants. Rooted in early Islamic history, the term Rafida is commonly used in Sunni polemics, but has also been reinterpreted favorably by some Shia scholars to signify 'rejection' of all tyranny and the Shia struggle against oppressive Sunni rulers. Less commonly, the term Rafida has been applied to other Shia subsects, such as the ghulat (lit. 'exaggerators' or 'extremists'), who ascribed divinity to Shia imams, and were excommunicated by them. Robert McClenon, the following is the wording which I propose to insert in the lede and the "Definition" section: QUOTE Rafida (Arabic: رافضة, romanized: Rāfiḍa, lit. 'those who reject') broadly refers to those Shia Muslims who 'reject' the legitimacy of the Caliphates of Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman, in favor of Ali Ibn Abi Talib, the cousin and son-in-law of the Islamic prophet Muhammad. Rooted in early Islamic history, the term Rafida is used in Sunni polemics against Shi'ism. Several Shia scholars view the term in a favourable light to signify Shias' rejection of whom they regard as oppressive Sunni rulers. Definition The term Rafida or Rawafid (lit. 'those who reject', sg. Rafidi) broadly refers to those Shia Muslims who 'reject' the caliphates of Abu Bakr (r. 632–634), Umar (r. 634–644), and Uthman (r. 644–656). One after another, these caliphs succeeded the Islamic prophet Muhammad after he died in 632 CE. The term "Rawafid" (lit. 'those who reject', sg. Rafidi) was also used as a derogatory term to describe Shia Muslims. In particular, the term Rafida applied to Twelvers, who constitute the majority of the Shia community. Twelvers believe that, shortly before he died in 632 CE, Muhammad publicly designated his cousin and son-in-law, Ali ibn Abi Talib, as his successor at the Ghadir Khumm. According to the Twelvers, early caliphs thus usurped Ali's right to succeed Muhammad. They also believe that Ali was succeeded by eleven of his descendants. Rooted in early Islamic history, the term Rafida is still used in Sunni polemics, but has also been reinterpreted favorably by some Shia scholars to signify 'rejection' of all tyranny and the Shia struggle against whom they consider as oppressive Sunni rulers. Less commonly, the term Rafida has been applied to other Shia sects, such as the ghulat (lit. 'exaggerators' or 'extremists'),." END QUOTE Note that in the above version, I also made slight improvements in the lede sentence and last sentence of the "Definition" section. Thank you. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 17:33, 18 April 2024 (UTC) Third statement by moderator (Rafida) I have read the two proposed versions. Does either editor have any questions about the reliability of the sources used by the other editor? If so, please state what sources are considered questionable, and we will ask about them at the Reliable Source Noticeboard. Otherwise, please state briefly and concisely what your concerns are about the other proposed version. Are there any other content issues, or any questions? Robert McClenon (talk) 19:28, 20 April 2024 (UTC) Third statements by editors (Rafida) Regarding sources, I don't consider a Britannica article authored by "The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica" a reliable source, especially when there is no shortage of expert material about the topic by the likes of E. Kohlberg and M. Momen, among others. Even if it were to be considered a reliable source, this would have been a case of WP:FRINGE because this particular Britannica article goes against the academic consensus and should receive little or no weight in our article per WP:DUE, let alone replace the experts' views, as Shadowwarrior8 has done in his version. Every reliable source is unequivocally clear that Rafida is a deragotary nickname. Reliable sources are also clear that the title is largely applied by Sunnis (and also by Zaydis, according to some sources) to the majority of Shias for condemning the first three caliphs after the Islamic prophet Muhammad. For instance, please consult the EI article by Kohlberg, cited also in our own article, particularly the first and last pages of his article. There are other major concerns about the version proposed by Shadowwarrior8 but perhaps we can start with the one discussed above. Thank you for your consideration. Albertatiran (talk) 10:25, 21 April 2024 (UTC) The main problem with the version of user Albertatiran is that it reduces "Rafida" as a polemical term and denies the existence of shia sects which identified itself as 'Rafida' throughout history. My version is historically accurate as well as academically correct because there have been several Shia sects which identified themselves as 'Raafida' for over a 1000 years. Currently there are many Twelver Shia clerics who identify the Twelver Shiites as 'Raafidites'. While it is true that Sunni and Zaydi scholars use the term 'Raafida' in a derogatory way, this doesnt mean that 'Raafida' sects who rejected the legitimacy of the caliphates of Abubakr and Omar didnt exist. This is explained in several sources in the article. The term "fascist" is often used as a slur by various political factions, but this doesnt mean fascists do not exist. (I'm obviously not suggesting that "Raafida" are similar to fascists, I am just demonstrating an example in wikipedia.) Here are some inline citations with quotations which verify the edits I inserted in the article: (Encyclopædia Britannica) QUOTE "Rāfiḍah, (Arabic: “Rejectors”), broadly, Shīʿite Muslims who reject (rafḍ) the caliphate of Muḥammad’s two successors Abū Bakr and ʿUmar." END QUOTE (Kohlberg, 1979) QUOTE "The term "Rafida," originally used as a pejorative appellation, was quite early interpreted by the Imamis (against whom it was primarily directed) as an honorific signifying "Those who rejected evil." ... The early Shi'i traditionist Sulayman b. Mihran al-A'mash (d. 148/765) quotes Ja'far al-Sadiq as explaining that "Rafida," far from being an abusive nickname invented by anti-Shi'is, is in fact an honorific given to the Shi'is by God and preserved in both the Old and the New Testaments." END QUOTE (Esposito, 2003) QUOTE "Rawafid... In modern times, the term is still used in Sunni polemics against the Shiis, but also by some Shiis themselves in places such as Lebanon and Iraq as a source of pride." END QUOTE Here is an academic classification of early Rawafid sects (Melchert, 1992) QUOTE "A smaller group of twenty Shiites are Rawafid (rafidi, rumiya bi-al-rafd); i.e., those who not only entertain inordinate affection for 'Ali and his line, but dispute the legitimacy of Aba Bakr and 'Umar." END QUOTE Additionally, the religious texts of Twelver Shi'ites are full of praise for the term "Rawafid". Kohlberg's article which is cited above explains this with excerpts from the primary sources of Twelver Shi'is. Furthermore, contemporary Twelver Shia clerics also identify themselves as "Rawafid" or "Rafidah". Here is an excerpt from the website "al-islam.org", which is arguably the most popular Twelver shia religious site in the internet: "Why are the Shi'a sometimes called Rawafid or rejectors by their opponents? What did the Shi'a reject?" "They rejected the legitimacy of the caliphates of Abu Bakr, 'Umar and 'Uthman. Initially the name was used pejoratively by the 'Uthmaniyya, but it was taken up and used by the Imami Shi'a themselves." (source: https://www.al-islam.org/ask/why-are-the-shia-sometimes-called-rawafid-or-rejectors-by-their-opponents-what-did-the-shia-reject/rebecca-masterton ) Another religious website popular amongst Twelver shi'ites is literally titled "The Rafida Foundation". The last two sources are not reliable in wikipedia, but I cited them to demonstrate how Twelver Shi'ah community continues to identify themselves as "Rafida". This is also demonstrated in various sources which I cited above. There has been several Rafida shia sects which existed throughout history, most of which went extinct, except the Twelver Shia. So the page "Rafida" should present an accurate and precise academic information of these raafida sects, (regarding their history, beliefs, evolution, etc.) rather than giving undue weight to the polemical usage of the term by Sunnis and Zaydis. I would suggest that usage of "Rafida" as a derogatory term is outside of the scope of this article and it is better to document that in a seperate article titled "Rafida (slur)" or "Rafida (insult)". Another problem with Albertatiran's edits is that it contained several unsourced edits with sectarian POV. For example, Albertatiran wrote in the page: "This nickname has been reinterpreted favorably by some Shia scholars to signify Shias' rejection of their oppressive Sunni rulers." Obviously, this is a POV edit which explictly advances a sectarian victimhood narrative, and it cannot be inserted in wikivoice. I reverted that edit and re-instated the previous impartial tone, which is more in line with the sources presented in the body of the page: "Several Shia scholars view the term in a favourable light to signify Shias' rejection of whom they regard as oppressive Sunni rulers." Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 05:56, 22 April 2024 (UTC) References @Shadowwarrior8: Regarding your first point, your verbose statement is misrepresenting the sources and filled with original research. As a representative academic source, here is the gist of Kohlberg's EI article, already reflected in the version you reverted: Rafida is a pejorative generally applied to Twelvers and less so to a number of (small or extinct) Shia subsects. Over time, some Shia figures reinterpreted the term favorably. Why did they do so? Kohlberg speculates elsewhere that Shias realized that they were stuck with the abusive nickname and simply decided to embrace it. All this is miles away from your OR. Regarding your second point, the one about "oppressive Sunni rulers," what I wrote correctly summarizes the sources (and the academic consensus). Wikipedia is not supposed to censor what you personally find to be "sectarian POV" or "sectarian victimhood narrative" or controversial. Rather, our task here is to summarize and present reliable sources. At any rate, this example does not justify your repeated mass-reverts. The solution to such minor issues is to discuss them on the talk page of the article to reach a consensus there. I'd be happy to discuss it here too but to do so would derail the ongoing dispute resolution process, in my opinion. Albertatiran (talk) 21:40, 22 April 2024 (UTC) References Fourth statement by moderator (Rafida) I apologize for the delay in responding. Let's try again. Albertatiran says that: Every reliable source is unequivocally clear that Rafida is a deragotary nickname. Can Shadowwarrior8 please provide a reliable source that indicates that some Shia apply the term "Rafida" to themselves? We should not make a statement about "Every reliable source" if some, even a few, reliable sources disagree. Albertatiran questions the use of the Encyclopedia Britannica as a source. There has in the past been no consensus on the reliability of Britannica. Do you want to submit a question to the Reliable Source Noticeboard about the reliability of the source in the specific context? Since it appears that reliable sources disagree, we should provide an assessment of what the majority and minority of reliable sources say. I would like each editor to provide a revised proposal for what you would like the lede and the Definitions sections to say. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:18, 27 April 2024 (UTC) Please be concise in your statements. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:18, 27 April 2024 (UTC) Fourth statements by editors (Rafida) Hi Robert McClenon, thanks for your time. From my earlier response, let me please quote here again: "Here is the gist of Kohlberg's EI article... Rafida is a pejorative generally applied to Twelvers (the Shia majority) and less so to a number of (small or extinct) Shia subsects. Over time, some Shia figures reinterpreted the term favorably. Why did they do so? Kohlberg speculates elsewhere that Shias realized that they were stuck with the abusive nickname and simply decided to embrace it." So, the answer to your first question is affirmative, and my version of the article already says so too. Below, I'm quoting from that version: From the lede: "This nickname has been reinterpreted favorably by some Shia scholars to signify Shias' rejection of their oppressive Sunni rulers." From the body of the article: "Rooted in early Islamic history, the term Rafida is still used in Sunni polemics, but has also been reinterpreted favorably by some Shia scholars to signify 'rejection' of all tyranny and the Shia struggle against oppressive Sunni rulers." Also from the body of the article: "Some Imamite Shia scholars consider the term to be an honorific title and identify themselves as Rafida. In the contemporary era, some Shias in Iraq and Lebanon view the term as a source of pride and use it as a symbol of revolt against tyranny.' So, while I'm very much grateful for your help, I'm not sure how this particular question would help settle the dispute. I agree that it's a good idea to refer Britannica to the Reliable Source Noticeboard. Should I go ahead and submit a question there? As for your request for proposals, my argument is as before: This Britannica article is not reliable. Even if it were reliable, it's a fringe view that goes against the well established academic consensus. The former says that most Shias accept the first two caliphs, in contradistinction to the latter. The fringe (and factually incorrect) view should receive no weight in the article. The rest of the Britannica article reads like other reliable sources, that is, Rafida is a deragotary nickname, as perceived by most Shias. I can't convey this any better than what I have already done in my previous proposal. However, further down, in the section "Rafida in Twelver Shia tradition," there is room to add more details about how Shias responded to this nickname. Thanks again. Albertatiran (talk) 23:50, 27 April 2024 (UTC) How about a middle ground solution? @Albertatiran Split the article. Transfer contents regarding the usage of the term "Rafida" as a slur into a new article titled "Rafida (slur)" or "Rafida (insult)". In such a page, the usage of the term "Rafida" as a slur can be given focus in the lede. While the article "Rafida" itself can solely focus academically on the Shi'i rafida sects that emerged since the 9th century and its history. Do you agree to this proposal? If yes, this discussion can be closed quickly and a lot of time need not be wasted in pointless arguments. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 11:29, 29 April 2024 (UTC) See DRN Rule A.9, which states: Address your comments to the moderator and the community. Do not address the other editor during moderated discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:08, 1 May 2024 (UTC) @Shadowwarrior8: Your proposal to split the page should be put to vote on the talk page of the article. We're not here for that. We're here to discuss your mass-revert of my edits. You have repeatedly claimed that my edits were POV and unsourced and that my version "denies the existence of shia sects which identified itself as Rafida.'" I've patiently debunked your claims, one by one. The right course of action is to undo your unexplained mass-revert and then put your proposal to vote on the talk page. Courtesy ping: Robert McClenon Albertatiran (talk) 14:22, 30 April 2024 (UTC) @Robert McClenon Well, I already provided several sources which state that the Twelver Shias (also known as "Imami shias") refer to themselves as "Raafida" in my previous comment. (Kohlberg, 1979) QUOTE "The term "Rafida," originally used as a pejorative appellation, was quite early interpreted by the Imamis (against whom it was primarily directed) as an honorific signifying "Those who rejected evil." ... The early Shi'i traditionist Sulayman b. Mihran al-A'mash (d. 148/765) quotes Ja'far al-Sadiq as explaining that "Rafida," far from being an abusive nickname invented by anti-Shi'is, is in fact an honorific given to the Shi'is by God and preserved in both the Old and the New Testaments." (Esposito, 2003) QUOTE "Rawafid... In modern times, the term is still used in Sunni polemics against the Shiis, but also by some Shiis themselves in places such as Lebanon and Iraq as a source of pride." END QUOTE Infact, Kohlberg criticized the claim that Imami Shi'is do not identify as "Rafidi" as false. He stated: "an examination of some Imami Shi'i sources reveals that it is not true." In his elaboration on this, Kohlberg further wrote: QUOTE "Of these sources, the earliest available is probably the Kitab al-mahasin of Abu Ja'far Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Khalid al-Barqi (d. 274/887 or 280/893). The fourth section of that book, entitled Kitab al-safwa wa l-nur wa l-rahma, contains some revealing utterances on the Rafida, which are ascribed to Muhammad al-Baqir (d. 114/732 or 117/735) and Ja'far al-Sadiq (d. 148/765), the fifth and sixth Imams. In one story, Uyayna (or 'Utayba), a sugar-cane vendor, complains to Ja'far al-Sadiq that someone has warned him against turning into a Rafidi; Ja'far replies: "By God, this name which God has granted you is excellent, as long as you follow our teachings and do not attribute lies to us." In a similar situation, Muhammad al-Baqir is said to have pointed at himself, declaring, "I am one of the Rafida." In addition to such general statements which aim at investing the term "Rafida" with respectability, attempts are also made to retroject it into a different historical setting. The early Shi'i traditionist Sulayman b. Mihran al-A'mash (d. 148/765) quotes Ja'far al-Sadiq as explaining that "Rafida," far from being an abusive nickname invented by anti-Shi'is, is in fact an honorific given to the Shi'is by God and preserved in both the Old and the New Testaments." END QUOTE As for Encyclopedia Britannica, the current consensus regarding this source according to wikipedia is: "Encyclopædia Britannica is a quality general encyclopedia (including its online edition, Encyclopædia Britannica Online). Its editorial process includes fact checking and publishing corrections." WP:RSP Regarding the lede and definition sections, my proposal remains the same as to the one I proposed in the second statement. While I backed up my edits with quotations from academic sources, the other editor only espoused POV views and original research. Hence, I dont feel any need to revise my proposed version. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 11:04, 29 April 2024 (UTC) References Fifth statement by moderator (Rafida) There has been a proposal to split the article into two articles, Rafida and Rafida (insult). I would like a concise statement from each editor as to their opinion about this proposal. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion, and do not address comments directly to the other editor. We already know that back-and-forth discussion preceded moderated discussion and has not resulted in agreement. You may make suggestions to the moderator as to what he should say to the other editor. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:16, 1 May 2024 (UTC) I will ask for an opinion from the Reliable Source Noticeboard about the Britannica as a source in the specific context. Fifth statements by editors (Rafida) My proposal was that contents in the page regarding the polemical usage of the term "Rafida" can be transferred to a new article titled "Rafida (slur)" or "Rafida (insult)". The current "Rafida" article can solely focus on the academic discussion of Shia rafida sects and their history. In my opinion, such an arrangement could present the information in a clarifying manner to a random reader. Otherwise, it may cause confusion to many readers. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 08:32, 1 May 2024 (UTC) @Robert McClenon: Such a proposal should be put to vote on the talk page of the article. That way we can solicit feedback from interested editors who are familiar with the topic. I'd reject this proposal for two reasons: 1) Lack of academic precedence, to my knowledge. 2) A quick recap: When used by Sunnis, the term Rafida is intended to be a slur term to describe (most) Shias. For instance, Wilferd Madelung writes that: When Sunnis and Shiites spoke politely with each other, they used these names. When they wanted to be derogatory, Sunnis called their Shiite opponents Rafida, and Shiites answered by calling Sunnis Nawasib. (Some) Shias also describe themselves as Rafida, in the same way that a bullied kid may try to "own" his/her abusive nickname. Etan Kohlberg writes that: Once the Shi'i leaders realized that they could not rid themselves of the term, they sought to turn it to their advantage. To sum, Rafida is a derogatory nickname for Shias which has been favorably reinterpreted by some of them. In my view, the two applications of the term Rafida are too entangled to be split into separate articles. There would be way too much overlap between the articles to justify the split; see WP:CONTENTSPLIT. Ultimately, as noted earlier, this matter should be decided by consensus on the talk page. Albertatiran (talk) 18:04, 3 May 2024 (UTC) Sixth statement by moderator (Rafida) One editor has proposed that a separate article Rafia (insult) be split off. The other editor disagrees, but says that this should be put to a vote on the article talk page. We can follow the procedures described in WP:Splitting. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:44, 4 May 2024 (UTC) If either editor wants a question asked about the reliability as a source of the Encyclopedia Britannica for a particular statement, please identify the particular statement, and I will take the question to the Reliable Source Noticeboard. What other content issues are there? Robert McClenon (talk) 16:44, 4 May 2024 (UTC) Sixth statements by editors (Rafida) I dont think there is any reason as to why Encyclopaedia Britannica's entry on "Rafida" has to be discarded, when other encyclopaedic books refer to Rafida sects in similar way. Here are some quotations from English-language encyclopaedic books: "Encyclopaedia of Islam" (New Edition Online) QUOTE "al-Rāfiḍa or al-Rawāfiḍ, a term that refers to (i) the proto-Imāmiyya (and, subsequently, the Twelver S̲h̲īʿa); (ii) any of a number of S̲h̲īʿī sects. In this article it is used in the former sense unless otherwise indicated. ... Rāfiḍism, which first emerged in Kūfa, had spread to Ḳumm by the end of the 2nd/8th century. Ḳumm became a bastion of Rāfiḍī orthodoxy, in contrast to Kūfa, where the various S̲h̲īʿī sects were in continual conflict with each other. It was primarily in Ḳumm that Rāfiḍī traditions were sifted and collected. ... Rāfiḍī centres which arose in the 3rd/9th century included Ahwāz, ¶ Rayy and Naysābūr; by the 4th/10th century, Rāfiḍism had spread to Ṭūs, to Bayhaḳ and to various places in Ṭabaristān and Transoxania, and Bag̲h̲dād (particularly the Kark̲h̲ quarter) had become a stronghold of Rāfiḍī rationalist kalām. The early Rāfiḍīs combined extreme anti-Sunnī positions with political quietism. Their most prominent theologians included Zurāra b. Aʿyan (d. 150/767), S̲h̲ayṭān al-Ṭāḳ, His̲h̲ām al-D̲j̲awālīḳī and His̲h̲ām b. al-Ḥakam (d. 179/795-6 [q.v.]). They were divided into a number of subsects..." END QUOTE In "The Oxford Handbook of Islamic theology" (2016), Wilferd Madelung mentions about "rafida" sects that opposed an early Ibadi scholar: QUOTE "Al-Fazārī’s primary opponents in theology were the rationalist Muʿtazila and the radical Shīʿa (Rāfiḍa), whom he also describes as rationalists in association with the Muʿtazila." END QUOTE Infact, in the above book's index section, "Shia" and "Rafida" are used interchangeably. Also, there are other content issues with Albertatiran's edits in the body. For example, the user cited two outdated sources and wrote: "In Saudi Arabia, where Wahhabism is the state religion.." but this is incorrect. Saudi government declares Islam as its state religion and "Wahhabism" was the official religious doctrine championed by the Saudi state, until 2010s. In recent years, Saudi government has stopped promoting the Wahhabi movement and its religious clergy today consists of a blend of Sufis and Salafis, as reported in several news-outlets and sources: "Saudi Arabia no longer exports fundamentalist Wahhabi Islam, long its state ideology, and has largely ceased the promotion of Wahhabism even within its own borders." (source: "Birth of a Nation", "Tablet" magazine, 23 May 2023) "Unlike the Saudi National Day, which celebrates the political idea of the unification of the contemporary Saudi state in 1932, Foundation Day serves a twofold function: the celebration of one political myth and the erasure of another. It celebrates the myth that the contemporary Saudi state is a “third” state in an imagined, unbroken three centuries of historical Saudi Arabia in the Arabian Peninsula. It also erases the Wahhabi political myth, or the narrative that the “first” Saudi state began after a covenant had been made between Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab, the founder of the Wahhabi movement, and Mohammed ibn Saud in 1744. By selecting 1727 as the starting year of the “first” state, instead of 1744, Foundation Day seeks to supplant Wahhabism in the Saudi political narrative." (source: "A New Holiday Heralds a More Complex Understanding of Saudi Arabia’s Origins", "New Lines Magazine", 23 February 2024) Hence, I reverted the edits back to: " In Saudi Arabia, where Wahhabism was officially promoted by the state.." Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 12:30, 5 May 2024 (UTC) Hi Robert McClenon, Britannica's article on Rafida reads, To the majority of the Shīʿites, who do not condemn Muḥammad’s immediate successors and only assert ʿAlī’s right to the caliphate over Muʿāwiyah (the first Umayyad caliph)... The above claim is factually incorrect. The (overwhelming) majority of Shias do in fact condemn the first three successors of Muhammad (caliphs). In their view, these caliphs usurped this political position (caliphate) from Muhammad's designated successor, Ali ibn Abi Talib. For them, the first three caliphs thus left the faith. (For convenience, I've cited here only from our article's current sources.) If this Britannica article is wrong about this basic fact, what other errors could it contain? Why insist on citing a Britannica article authored by "The Editors of the Encyclopaedia Britannica" when there are several excellent academic research and reference articles on the topic? (There are exceptions like this Britannica article authored by two well-known Islamicists, which is indeed cited in our article about Ali.) I'd also like to bring to your attention that the other editor's statement consists of disconnected quotes and original research, like this one: "Infact, in the above book's index section, 'Shia' and "Rafida" are used interchangeably." Regarding his other concerns, perhaps those can wait until a later round, since that discussion would distract us from the question at hand in this round regarding the reliability of Britannica in this context. Albertatiran (talk) 10:18, 6 May 2024 (UTC) Seventh statement by moderator (Rafida) I have posted a question at the Reliable Source Noticeboard about the Encyclopedia Britannica as a source for Rafida. One editor has proposed that a separate article Rafida (insult) be split off. The other editor disagrees, but says that this should be put to a vote on the article talk page. We can follow the procedures described in WP:Splitting. I will start the splitting discussion within 36 hours. Are there any other specific article content issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 04:59, 7 May 2024 (UTC) Seventh statements by editors (Rafida) @Robert McClenon Regarding my proposal of splitting the article, I oppose the initiation of the split discussion before the resolution of this content dispute. Such Rfcs typically takes months to conclude and there are many split proposals that have stayed dormant for more than 1 year. So I support the initiation of a split proposal only after the resolution of the ongoing content dispute. Regarding other content issues, in the "Context" section there was a statement "Several Imamite Shia scholars consider the term to be an honorific title and identify themselves as Rafida." Albertatiran dubiously removed "several" with "some", despite the fact that the source was explictly clear that the usage of the term "Rafida" was widespread amongst the Imami Shia. Infact, throughout that entire article Kohlberg is focused on explaining how the Imami Shias widely view themselves as "rawafid", with citations from Imami Shia religious texts. (Kohlberg, 1979) QUOTE "The term "Rafida," ...., was quite early interpreted by the Imamis (against whom it was primarily directed) as an honorific signifying "Those who rejected evil." END QUOTE I think that by now in this discussion, I've summed up all the content issues outside of the lede and "Definition" section. Thank you. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 5:40, 8 May 2024 (UTC) @Robert McClenon: Thank you for posting the question about Britannica. Do you think we have a verdict there? To keep the discussion focused, I'd like to present only one or two issues in every round and afterward address one or two of the concerns raised by the other editor. I'll also wait until all those issues are resolved before moving on to new ones. I hope this is acceptable. The mass-revert in question removed the following text from the lede: The charge that Shias have rejected the Truth is frequently cited by Sunni extremists to justify their acts of violence against the Shia community. Lede summarizes the article and commonly leaves out sources for the sake of readability. In particular, the above claims appear in the body of the article with reliable sources: By eleventh century, the Shia status as "rejectors of the Truth" was canonized by Hanbali scholars, who did not grant Islamic rights to Shia Muslims: They were not to be married with, meat slaughtered by them was not halal (permissible), and they could not lead prayers. With the fall of Abbasids in 1258, such attacks on Shi'ism intensified. They are labeled today as infidels or heretics by various Salafi and Wahhabi scholars, considered a bigger threat to Islam than Christianity and Judaism, and there are frequent calls for their extermination. On these grounds, some Sunni Jihadist groups have justified their acts of violence against the Shia community. Why was the above reliably-sourced content removed from the lede? I'd like that to be restored. Regarding this edit, the use of "several" is a misrepresention of the source, which is silent about the quantity. In the last paragraph of the source, Kohlberg says that he has listed "a few examples" to show how the term Rafida was reinterpreted in the Shia world. No where does the source say that this new interpretation was "widespread." It may have been so but this particular source is silent about that. Since the quantity is not given here, I replaced "several" with the more accurate term "some." In the same edit, "many Shi'ites" is similarly misrepresenting the source, which is again silent about the quantity. I changed that to "some Shias" in this edit. The same source explicitly says revolt "against tyranny," but this part was earlier removed by the other editor. I put it back in this edit. Since the entry of the Oxford Dictionary of Islam about Rafida is fairly short, it'd have been helpful to quote it here in its entirety to support my statement. Unfortunately, however, the book is no longer available on Internet Archive, that is, I can no longer access the book legally. Albertatiran (talk) 06:01, 9 May 2024 (UTC) Eighth statement by moderator (Rafida) One editor opposes a split discussion, saying: Regarding my proposal of splitting the article, I oppose the initiation of the split discussion before the resolution of this content dispute. So I have not started a split discussion, but I will ask what specific content dispute they want resolved. The objective is to improve the article, so please state exactly what change you want made in the article. If you have stated it before, please state it precisely, again, anyway. The feedback from the Reliable Source Noticeboard is that Encyclopedia Britannica is a tertiary source, like Wikipedia, and that the use of secondary sources is preferred/ Otherwise, there appears to be disagreement about the specific use. So it is best not to include any statements that are sourced only to Britannica. So please identify exactly what changes you want made in the article. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:16, 11 May 2024 (UTC) Eighth statements by editors (Rafida) Hi Robert McClenon, thank you for your patience. There are about a dozen instances of content-removal and unsourced edits by Shadowwarrior8 that I wish to be addressed. I'd like to begin with the following, copied from my previous statement. The mass-revert in question removed the following text from the lede: The charge that Shias have rejected the Truth is frequently cited by Sunni extremists to justify their acts of violence against the Shia community. Lede summarizes the article and commonly leaves out sources for the sake of readability. In particular, the above claims appear in the body of the article with reliable sources: By eleventh century, the Shia status as "rejectors of the Truth" was canonized by Hanbali scholars, who did not grant Islamic rights to Shia Muslims: They were not to be married with, meat slaughtered by them was not halal (permissible), and they could not lead prayers. With the fall of Abbasids in 1258, such attacks on Shi'ism intensified. They are labeled today as infidels or heretics by various Salafi and Wahhabi scholars, considered a bigger threat to Islam than Christianity and Judaism, and there are frequent calls for their extermination. On these grounds, some Sunni Jihadist groups have justified their acts of violence against the Shia community. Why was the above reliably-sourced content removed from the lede? I'd like that to be restored. Albertatiran (talk) 06:31, 12 May 2024 (UTC) Robert McClenon, I'd largely like to maintain the current version of the article, with a little bit of improvements. Since you've asked to state it precisely, I shall start delineating it. The lede and "Definition" section: QUOTE Rafida (Arabic: رافضة, romanized: Rāfiḍa, lit. 'those who reject') broadly refers to those Shia Muslims who 'reject' the legitimacy of the Caliphates of Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman, in favor of Ali Ibn Abi Talib, the cousin and son-in-law of the Islamic prophet Muhammad. Rooted in early Islamic history, the term Rafida is used in Sunni polemics against Shi'ism. Several Shia scholars view the term in a favourable light to signify Shias' rejection of whom they regard as oppressive Sunni rulers. Definition The term Rafida or Rawafid (lit. 'those who reject', sg. Rafidi) broadly refers to those Shia Muslims who 'reject' the caliphates of Abu Bakr (r. 632–634), Umar (r. 634–644), and Uthman (r. 644–656). One after another, these caliphs succeeded the Islamic prophet Muhammad after he died in 632 CE. The term "Rawafid" (lit. 'those who reject', sg. Rafidi) was also used as a derogatory term to describe Shia Muslims. In particular, the term Rafida applied to Twelvers, who constitute the majority of the Shia community. Twelvers believe that, shortly before he died in 632 CE, Muhammad publicly designated his cousin and son-in-law, Ali ibn Abi Talib, as his successor at the Ghadir Khumm. According to the Twelvers, early caliphs thus usurped Ali's right to succeed Muhammad. They also believe that Ali was succeeded by eleven of his descendants. Rooted in early Islamic history, the term Rafida is still used in Sunni polemics, but has also been reinterpreted favorably by some Shia scholars to signify 'rejection' of all tyranny and the Shia struggle against whom they consider as oppressive Sunni rulers. Less commonly, the term Rafida has been applied to other Shia sects, such as the ghulat (lit. 'exaggerators' or 'extremists'),." END QUOTE The above is the same version which I proposed in the second statement. I'd like to maintain the current version of the "Context" and "History" sections. In the "History" section, I am ok with removing sources "alukah.net" and "al-Hussein al-Houthi", as I stated in the Zeroth statement. [PS: Regarding Encyclopædia Britannica, several sources have already been provided (some of which are already present alongside it in the page) which backs up the contents in the "Definition" section and the lede. So, in any case, it is not used as a stand-alone source. I've read several other academic sources which explains "Rafida" in a similar way. It should be noted that there isn't particularly any incorrect information in the "Rafidah" entry of Britannica. Infact, it's contents are more or less in similar pattern to entries regarding "Rafidah" in other English-language encyclopaedic sources.] Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 14:46, 12 May 2024 (UTC) Ninth statement by moderator (Rafida) We will discuss the most significant issue first. The most significant issue appears to be the removal of a sentence from the lede: The charge that Shias have rejected the Truth is frequently cited by Sunni extremists to justify their acts of violence against the Shia community. . This sentence was removed from the lede by User:Shadowwarrior8. User:Albertatiran wants it restored. I will askam asking Shadowwarrior8 why they removed it, and will askam asking Albertatiran why they think it should be restored. Are there any other content issues that either of you want addressed promptly? Robert McClenon (talk) 04:23, 14 May 2024 (UTC) Ninth statements by editors (Rafida) Tenth statement by moderator (Rafida) I am still asking for a statement of why the removed sentence either should have been removed or should be restored. However, I have another question. The sentence in question was removed from the lede. The lede should summarize the content, or the most important content, in the body of the article. I could not find a comparable statement in the body of the article. Was it previously in the body of the article? If it should be restored to the lede, what should be restored to the body of the article that is comparable? Robert McClenon (talk) 22:43, 14 May 2024 (UTC) Tenth statements by editors (Rafida) Hi Robert McClenon, sorry for the late reply. 1) The lead section should be a standalone summary of the article as most visitors would not continue to read the main body of the article, according to WP:LEDE. This does not mean that every sentence in the lede should be copied from the main article. I've given below the removed sentence and the paragraph in (an earlier version of) the article that it's meant to summarize. (Note the text in bold font). While I'm open to a discussion on the talk page about alternative ways to summarize the paragraph below, altogether removing reliably-sourced content from the lede or anywhere else in the article (without reaching a consensus on the talk page) is unacceptable per WP:REMOVAL. Undiscussed content removal is also almost never done with the intention of improving the article. First, the removed sentence should be restored. Only then there could be a discussion on the talk page about potentially better ways to summarize the paragraph below. Removed sentence: The charge that Shias have rejected the Truth is frequently cited by Sunni extremists to justify their acts of violence against the Shia community. Corresponding paragraph in this version of article follows next. Later Shadowwarrior8 removed the name of Islamic State and made some other changes to the paragraph below. By eleventh century, the Shia status as "rejectors of the Truth" was canonized by Hanbali scholars, who did not grant Islamic rights to Shia Muslims: They were not to be married with, meat slaughtered by them was not halal (permissible), and they could not lead prayers. With the fall of Abbasids in 1258, such attacks on Shi'ism intensified. They are labeled today as infidels or heretics by various Salafi and Wahhabi scholars, considered a bigger threat to Islam than Christianity and Judaism, and there are frequent calls for their extermination. On these grounds, the Islamic State, al-Qaeda, and other Sunni extremist groups have justified their acts of violence against the Shia communit have justified their acts of violence against the Shia community. 2) In their previous statement, Shadowwarrior8 wrote that Britannica "is not used as a stand-alone source." This is false. Footnote 1 of the article quotes the following from Britannica without providing additional sources. Either the quote below should be removed or Shadowwarrior8 should corroborate that claim with reliable secondary sources. Actually, earlier I listed multiple reliable sources that contradict the statement below (that only a minority of Shias condemn the first caliphs for usurping Ali's right to the caliphate). The onus is on Shadowwarrior8 to show that what follows is the majority view in academia. Rāfiḍah, (Arabic: "Rejectors"), broadly, Shīʿite Muslims who reject (rafḍ) the caliphate of Muḥammad's two successors Abū Bakr and ʿUmar. Many Muslim scholars, however, have stated that the term Rāfiḍah cannot be applied to the Shīʿites in general but only to the extremists among them who believe in the divine right of ʿAlī to succeed Muḥammad and who condemn Abū Bakr and ʿUmar as unlawful rulers of the Muslim community. 3) The are several other cases of content removal and unsourced or poorly sourced edits in the mass revert in question. However, I'd like to wait until the above issues are resolved before putting forward the rest. Albertatiran (talk) 02:25, 15 May 2024 (UTC) Robert McClenon: "The sentence in question was removed from the lede. The lede should summarize the content, or the most important content, in the body of the article" Exactly. As I stated before, the article primarily deals with the Rafida sects and their history. That statement is inappropriate in the lede, since it gives undue weight to contemporary geo-political issues. In my opinion, a main issue with many Islam-related articles in wikipedia is that classical religious doctrines and concepts are mixed with contemporary geo-political agendas in many of these pages. Sunni and Zaydi scholars have been using the term "Rafida" as a derogatory term for more than a thousand years. Ignoring this and giving undue weight to information related to contemporary militant and insurgent groups advances Euro-centric systemic bias and is certainly not an academic approach. Additionally, both the article and it's 1 para lede are very short, so it is undue in the lede. If the article is expanded or a new article titled "Rafida (slur)" is created, then it maybe appropriate to mention information related to contemporary geo-political affairs in an enlarged lede. In reality, trivial differences in editing-style and paraphrasing are not content issues at all. Copy edits that improve the article, with respect to tone, grammar, structure, etc. are not disruptive or removal of sourced content. Lede is a carefully summarized content of the body, and onus is on the editor to reach consensus for inclusion in the talk page. Regarding Encyclopaedia Britannica, I gave another academic source (which is already present elsewhere in the page) pretty directly in my previous statement. Yet, the other editor persists in repeating the dishonest claim that it is the used as the sole source. Despite ten statements, Albertatiran cannot point to any real content issues of mine and presists in repeating the hollow claim that there are "several other cases of content removal and unsourced or poorly sourced edits". If anything, this shows that the other editor is unable to identify any solid issue. On the other hand, I've pinpointed all the content issues by now in this discussion. I tried my best to summarize my points without bludgeoning and I hope you were able to understand all the key content issues. @Robert McClenon Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 6:54, 16 May 2024 (UTC) Eleventh statement by moderator (Rafida) At this point I am trying to focus only on the issue of whether to restore the removed sentence. I have created a draft RFC at Talk:Rafida/RFC on Sentence in Lede. After any tweaking, I will move it to the article talk page, and it will become a live RFC for thirty days. In the meantime, you may comment on it. Do not !vote in it until it is activated by moving it to the article talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:30, 17 May 2024 (UTC) I am still asking what sentence that either is or was in the body of the article it is meant to correspond to. When I ask questions about how article content is to be changed, I am not asking for discussion of what the other editor has done or why the other editor is mistaken. Comment at this time only on the draft RFC. Other issues can be discussed later. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:30, 17 May 2024 (UTC) Eleventh statements by editors (Rafida) @Robert McClenon: Thank you for creating the RFC. It's a bit unclear for me when/where I should add my comment. Anyway, below please find my statement. Right venue: The mass-revert in question consisted of several content-removals and unsourced or poorly-sources edits, like this one. However, it seems reasonable to first settle the active issues before moving on to the rest. As for the venue, since unmoderated discussion on the talk page failed immediately, this page is the right place to resolve the matters per WP:DRN. (Indeed, this was Shadowwarrior8's second mass-revert. After the first mass-revert, I addressed the problems with that version of the article in separate edits with explanatory edit summaries. All there these edits were again reverted by Shadowwarrior8 without any explanation, besides the usual labels, like disruptive and POV.) Britannica: In his previous statement, Shadowwarrior8 wrote that, Regarding Encyclopaedia Britannica, I gave another academic source (which is already present elsewhere in the page) pretty directly in my previous statement. This claim is false. The added source (EI2 article by Kohlberg) contradicts Footnote 1 of our article (which quotes Britannica). Below I've given both Footnote 1 and the relevant statement in Kohlberg's article. In sum, Footnote 1 is a standalone statement from Britannica. Either it should be removed from our article or Shadowwarrior8 should establish that Footnote 1 matches the academic consensus, since by now I've given four reliable sources to the contrary. Footnote 1 of our article, which quotes Britannica: Rāfiḍah, (Arabic: “Rejectors”), broadly, Shīʿite Muslims who reject (rafḍ) the caliphate of Muḥammad’s two successors Abū Bakr and ʿUmar. Many Muslim scholars, however, have stated that the term Rāfiḍah cannot be applied to the Shīʿites in general but only to the extremists among them who believe in the divine right of ʿAlī to succeed Muḥammad and who condemn Abū Bakr and ʿUmar as unlawful rulers of the Muslim community. Kohlberg's EI2 (which Shadowwarrior8 cited to support Footnote 1): On the question of the imāmate they maintained that ʿAlī had been appointed as Muḥammad’s successor by an explicit designation (naṣṣ) and that the majority of the Companions were sinners or even unbelievers for failing to support him after the Prophet’s death. (Those "sinner" companions obviously includes the the first three caliphs, that is, the usurpers. This is implicit in this quote, but it's made explicit in numerous other reliable sources, including the three I gave in an earlier statement.) Lede: If Shadowwarrior8 believes that the paragraph in question is of minor importance or relevance and that it should be hidden from the majority of visitors to the page (who would not go on to read the full article), then he/she should reach a consensus on the talk page to that effect. Removal of reliably-sourced content is unacceptable per WP:REMOVAL. Quoting from that page, When removing content from a page, it is important to be sure there is consensus to do so. Moderator's question: The removed sentence from the lede does not correspond to any sentence in the body of the article. Article's lede is its summary and need not borrow verbatim from its body. In this case, the following paragraph in the article essentially says that, for some Sunni schools and currents, the term Rafida signifies that Shias have rejected the true Islam and are thus heretics, against whom violence is justified. The removed sentence, in my view, does a good job in conveying that to the reader. Removed sentence: The charge that Shias have rejected the Truth is frequently cited by Sunni extremists to justify their acts of violence against the Shia community. Corresponding paragraph from an earlier version of the article: By eleventh century, the Shia status as "rejectors of the Truth" was canonized by Hanbali scholars, who did not grant Islamic rights to Shia Muslims: They were not to be married with, meat slaughtered by them was not halal (permissible), and they could not lead prayers. With the fall of Abbasids in 1258, such attacks on Shi'ism intensified. They are labeled today as infidels or heretics by various Salafi and Wahhabi scholars, considered a bigger threat to Islam than Christianity and Judaism, and there are frequent calls for their extermination. On these grounds, the Islamic State, al-Qaeda, and other Sunni extremist groups have justified their acts of violence against the Shia communit have justified their acts of violence against the Shia community. Albertatiran (talk) 06:46, 18 May 2024 (UTC) Addendum Hi Robert McClenon, somehow I missed the last paragraph of your statement; hence the complaint in my own statement about the lack of clarity. As a result, my statement contains other comments too (but so does the statement of the other editor). It was an honest mistake and I'm sorry about that. However, I'd like to ask that we later revisit the standalone quote from Britannica in Footnote 1. By now I've given four reliable sources that contradict that footnote. Albertatiran (talk) 17:44, 19 May 2024 (UTC) Robert McClenon: "I am not asking for discussion of what the other editor has done or why the other editor is mistaken." Despite your clear instruction, the other editor proceeded to bludgeon an incoherent wall of text in the reply, mainly focused on various allegations against me. It is apparent that the other editor treats wikipedia as some sort of personal battleground, as evident from the editor's behaviour pattern throughout this discussion. Robert McClenon: "Comment at this time only on the draft RFC. Other issues can be discussed later." Despite this clear instruction, the user proceeded to comment here and began discussing other content issues. It's clear that the other editor is engaging in disruptive behaviour that has sabotaged the moderated discussion. This sort of bludgeoning behaviour is totally unacceptable and the other editor should face consequences for this. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 13:00, 19 May 2024 (UTC) Robert McClenon, since I'm not free for some days, I thought I could comment some suggestions regarding this discussion process as early as possible. Do you plan to continue this discussion process during the RfC? Either way, I propose the initiation of some disengagement measures since it has become clear that this discussion is an extended and lengthy process. My initial assessment was that this file would have closed within 1 or 2 weeks; and my responses - which included a mix of arguments, concessions, improvements and quotations from academic references - were oriented towards a quick resolution. (Read "Summary of dispute by Shadowwarrior8"). Hence, I responded at 1 statement/2 days rate. I have a tighter work schedule nowadays in real life, and it is not possible for me to keep up with 1 statement/2 days rate any longer. I propose to conduct the discussion at a 1 statement/2 weeks rate from now on. This can improve the overall quality of the discussion and also increase the decisiveness of each statement. I think such an arrangement may help you as well in analyzing the voluminous discussions in this dispute. Editors are free to take a break, and I shall comment again here in the next Sunday, if there is a new statement from you. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 19:16, 19 May 2024 (UTC) References The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ibn Battuta

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Jihanysta on 00:29, 19 May 2024 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Ibn Battuta (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Jihanysta (talk · contribs) Dispute overview I have noticed that these articles are frequently edited, and often these edits seem to distort or oversimplify the historical facts. Ibn Battuta, was defined as "a Maghrebi traveller" instead of "Moroccan Traveler", his place of birth is listed as the Maghreb and the Marinid Sultanate. These terms, while historically significant, do not clearly indicate his birthplace in the context of modern-day countries, which is "Tangier, Morocco." I have attempted to correct these inaccuracies myself, but my edits have been repeatedly reverted. I request implementing measures to ensure the accuracy and integrity of these articles. With all do respect, It is absurd to even argue about an article of Ibn battuta who was clearly born in Tangier a current city in Morocco and died in Marrakech a current city in Morocco. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? I tried to edit tha content, I also used the talk section writing my concerns to the other user, I sent emails to wikipedia's team to solve this falcification in the Moroccan history. I used all the possible civilised ways to improve this content How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Wikipedia was created for good accurate content it is a shame what I see when political problems interfere into facts. I hope that some wikipedia users would stop these falcifications and I expect and hope from wikipedia to be unbiased and warn the editors who are mostly from Algeria editing solely Moroccan content due to political conflicts Ibn Battuta discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Palm Springs Air Museum

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by BellamyBell on 01:35, 19 May 2024 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Palm Springs Air Museum (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved BellamyBell (talk · contribs) C.Fred (talk · contribs) Drmies (talk · contribs) Dispute overview I have tried to correct/update a page and each time the original page is restored. Two editors doing so thought what I published was too promotional. I read -- and believe I adhered to -- Wikipedia guidelines in two subsequent versions. Everything I published was factual, and I supplied supporting secondary sources. I received no reply to my last Talk entry in an attempt to learn specifically what was still found objectionable, so I am unable to determine how to get the page updated, more accurate, and more informative. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:BellamyBell How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? I understand this is the initial step I should take in appealing to get my edits approved so am hoping someone will review what I am trying to do and at the least explain why I cannot publish information that would improve the page content. Nothing in my content is controversial. Summary of dispute by C.Fred Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by Drmies Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Palm Springs Air Museum discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Tesla Inc.

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Emiya1980 on 05:30, 19 May 2024 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Tesla Inc. (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Emiya1980 (talk · contribs) Stepho-wrs (talk · contribs) QRep2020 (talk · contribs) Aaron Liu (talk · contribs) RickyCourtney (talk · contribs) Lukewarmbeer (talk · contribs) Aquillion (talk · contribs) Dispute overview There is an ongoing debate on the talk page for the article for Tesla Inc. regarding which figures (if any) should be listed as founders in the infobox. As far as I can tell, there are three positions which have been articulated in the thread. One argument states that only Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpenning should be designated as the founders because they originally incorporated the company which ultimately became Tesla Inc. The second argument states that Elon Musk, Ian Wright and J. B. Straubel should be included as founders because a lawsuit settlement agreement stipulated that they should be designated as "co-founders". I should also note that a state court ruled against Eberhard's and Tarpenning's request to be legally recognized as the company's exclusive founders. The third argument favors the status quo (i.e. listing a link to the article's "Founding" section) on the grounds that the facts surrounding this issue are too subject to interpretation to reach a definitive conclusion that will please all editors. Those in favor of this argument also contend that listing some or all of the aforementioned figures will only serve to make the page a perpetual battleground between supporters and detractors of Elon Musk. This discussion has gone on for a month and a decisive consensus has not been reached in favor of any of the aforementioned positions (even after opening an Rfc on the subject). How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Talk:Tesla, Inc.#Rfc_regarding_Tesla's_founders How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? In view of the aforementioned gridlock, I am hopeful that this debate can be resolved via some form of arbitration or suggestion of a compromise solution that most (if not all) editors can get behind. Summary of dispute by Stepho-wrs Listing "Eberhard and Tarpenning" only - skim readers will miss any nuances about the disputed status. Sounds like WP's voice is saying E+T are the true founders and the others are pretenders. Listing all five - skim readers will also miss any nuances. Sounds like WP's voice is saying there are 5 founders even though many sources say 2 and Tesla only mentions Musk. Listing "See § Founding" link - all readers will know it is disputed. WP's voice is neutral. Result of 2020 RFC. Organizational founder article says no formal definition under US law and that disputes may arise. Tesla always says Musk is a founder and rarely mentions anybody else. But many other sources say only E+T are founders. Conflict. No new arguments since 2020 RFC: Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_195#Tesla,_Inc.  Stepho  talk  10:23, 19 May 2024 (UTC) Summary of dispute by QRep2020 Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by Aaron Liu Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. The other parties have summarized the debate well. I'lla add that I was invited to this topic by Emilio's RfC, and currently it's nearly an even split between "list only E+T in addition to the link" and all other options. We agree that the link can stay. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:15, 19 May 2024 (UTC) Summary of dispute by RickyCourtney Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Tesla Inc. discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Gabriellemcnell

– New discussion.

Filed by Gabriellemcnell on 18:20, 21 May 2024 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Gabriellemcnell (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Gabriellemcnell (talk · contribs)
• LuckyLouie (talk · contribs)
• DonaldAlbury (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I, Gabriellemcnell, have been attempting to update Robert (doll)'s page with relevant and factual information that is not currently on the page. The information the page is currently missing has to do with Robert's historical origins, cultural context, cultural impact, and exposure in popular culture. The edits I published were backed by independent sources multiple times where necessary. I received permission and primary source documentation on the updated information regarding Robert through the Key West Art and Historical Society, who are the foremost experts and rights holders of Robert himself. Moments after successfully publishing the edits to Robert (doll)'s page, user @LuckyLouie had reverted it and notified me of this through the talk page on my account, @Gabriellemcnell. I reviewed his reasonings for the revert and attempted to reason with him through my talk page. The next edit I published was removing the sources that did not comply with the FRIND guidelines. By removing the fringe sources, which were LuckyLouie's main concern, I thought the page would stay updated as it complies with the necessary citations for the factual information within. User LuckyLouie took down the page again, within 24 hours, and began attacking my editing character on my talk page. I refrained from further edits to stop any edit warring from happening. I continued my attempts at reasoning with LuckyLouie but they were not able to specify what the exact problem with my initial edits were. User DonaldAlbury then joined the conversation on my talk page and attacked my editing character as well. I have tried to reason with DonaldAlbury and request specific problems to no avail. I do not know what else to do as Robert's page is still out of date and inaccurate.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Gabriellemcnell

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

I'd like to publish the original edits I made to Robert's page that have since been reverted. If I try to publish the page again with these edits, these users will revert it. Robert's page, once updated, needs to be protected or the users involved need to specify what their issue is or the users involved need to be restricted in reverting edits to Robert's page

Summary of dispute by LuckyLouie

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Summary of dispute by DonaldAlbury

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Gabriellemcnell discussion

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Undetectable.ai

– New discussion.

Filed by Sesame119 on 21:24, 21 May 2024 (UTC).

User @Sesame119 appears to be a Wikipedia:Single-purpose account.

As can be seen here, this user created a talk page post after filing this dispute.

One month ago, this user, who has no other edits then this single one he is warring over, Was warned a month ago for edit warring and improper editing.

Since this warning, the user hasn't made a single constructive edit outside of the same controversial and unreliably sourced edit they made when they first created their account.[1]

While the first few times could be overlooked in good faith, it seems clear to me that this user exists only to add this specific edit to this page, and despite being warned last month NOT to include blacklisted/unreliable sources, they did so again.

If an admin comes across this noticeboard, I'm requesting that this user be temporarily blocked for disruptive editing, so that they can take some time to read about WP policy, specifically, Wikipedia:Reliable sources, and Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No original research. Comintell (talk) 23:55, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Undetectable.ai (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Sesame119 (talk · contribs)
• Comintell (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I have attempted to add a "controversies" section to this page on several occasions over the last several months. The user "Comintell" has instantly changed my content back multiple times. They seem to have a vested interest in this company not receiving any attention that could be perceived as negative which constitutes a bias not in line with Wikipedia's values. Their claim is that my sources are inadequate despite being from government websites and articles mentioned on other Wikipedia pages respectively. I don't want to engage in an "edit war" with this user and they have failed to respond to any of my communications explaining my reasoning sent in response to their removals of my content. Please let me know if this user could be kept from editing this page further or simply kept from removing my content which is well sourced and legitimate.

Thank you.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Sesame119#c-Comintell-20240520235300-May_2024

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Ask this user to engage in a dialogue with me since they seem intent on removing certain verifiable information. I would like to understand their genuine reasoning. Or alternatively remove editing power of this user from the Undetectable.ai Wikipedia page.

Summary of dispute by Comintell

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Undetectable.ai discussion

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Ibn Battuta

– New discussion.

Filed by Jihanysta on 23:09, 21 May 2024 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Ibn Battuta (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Jihanysta (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

1.Clarity for Modern Readers: The current description uses “Tangier, Marinid Sultanate” and “Maghrebi traveler.” While this is historically significant, it may not be clear to most modern readers. Using “Tangier, Morocco” and “Moroccan traveler” could provide more immediate understanding. 2.Historical Context: While it’s important to use terms that modern readers will understand, it’s also crucial to provide historical context. We can mention that during Ibn Battuta’s time, Morocco was known as “al-Maghrib al-Aqsa” within the broader Maghreb region. This provides both clarity and historical accuracy. 3.Standard Practices: Wikipedia typically describes the birthplace and death of historical figures in relation to current countries, not the ruling entity of the time. This is especially relevant when the entity, in this case, the “Marinid Sultanate”, no longer exists. While Tangier and Marrakech are well known cities in Morocco. Aligning the article with this practice would maintain consistency across Wikipedia.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

[[4]]

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

it would be best to involve an administrator to help mediate this dispute and ensure that the most accurate information is presented on the page.

Ibn Battuta discussion

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Eurovision Song Contest 2024

– New discussion.

Filed by PicturePerfect666 on 23:27, 21 May 2024 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Eurovision Song Contest 2024 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• PicturePerfect666 (talk · contribs)
• The Satanator (talk · contribs)
• Yoyo360 (talk · contribs)
• ImStevan (talk · contribs)
• Super Goku V (talk · contribs)
• Bugghost (talk · contribs)
• Piccco (talk · contribs)
• F1xesc (talk · contribs)
• Jjj1238 (talk · contribs)
• Ceriumlanthanum (talk · contribs)
• Kingsif (talk · contribs)
• Hhl95 (talk · contribs)
• Vkb123 (talk · contribs)
• Edwin of Northumbria (talk · contribs)
• Spa-Franks (talk · contribs)
• JohnR1Roberts (talk · contribs)
• Nickpunk (talk · contribs)
• MoreofaGlorifiedPond,Really... (talk · contribs)
• IJA (talk · contribs)
• Tonyb1989 (talk · contribs)
• HypeBoy (talk · contribs)
• Uamaol (talk · contribs)
• Kapitan110295 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

There is an ongoing heated dispute over the level of detail given in the main article related to the coverage of Israel at this year's contest. There is a lot of want to include a lot of detail about the participation of Israel from including it prominently in the lede, to having multiple detailed sections in the main article. There is a need to ensure that policies on neutrality, balance, recentism, excessive detail, etc. are followed. There is a want to include based on the amount of media coverage and a want to include things unrelated to the contest in and of itself. The article is in danger of becoming not an article on the contest as a whole but an article on Israel's participation with some other things on the side. There is already an article specifically for Israel at the Evisovion Song Contest 2024. There is a need to avoid having a duplicate. There seems to be a push to include a lot more information on Israel than is warranted simply because some media outlets spilt a lot of ink writing about it, some people shouted very loudly through various means, and the Middle East conflict seems to drown out everything else it touches. The article needs to resolve how to include Israel while still maintaining focus on the actual Eurovision Song contest 2024, all the while remembering there is a child article specifically on Israel at this year's contest. PicturePerfect666 (talk) 23:40, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

• Talk:Eurovision Song Contest 2024#Do we need "the inclusion of Israel" paragraph on the top page?
• Talk:Eurovision Song Contest 2024#New article
• Talk:Eurovision Song Contest 2024#Intro paragraph of incidents
• Talk:Eurovision Song Contest 2024#Removal of content
• Talk:Eurovision Song Contest 2024#Sort controversies in alphabetical or chronological?
• Talk:Eurovision Song Contest 2024#Israel campaign for votes
• Talk:Eurovision Song Contest 2024#A biased POV about Israel

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

There is a need for outside parties who are uninvolved to look at the totality of the discussions taking place related to Israel. There are a lot of Points of view, and a lot of details wanting to be included. There is also a lot of recentism being banded about. This is causing serious bogging down and disputes over what to include and not include. Help is needed sorting this through, with a strong focus on what is an is not encyclopaedic and what is and is not following the Wikipedia pillars. Guidance and reminders of what Wikipedia is not are needed. Help to sort what goes in the main article and what goes in the child article.

Summary of dispute by The Satanator

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Summary of dispute by Yoyo360

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Summary of dispute by ImStevan

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Summary of dispute by Super Goku V

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Summary of dispute by Bugghost

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Summary of dispute by Piccco

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Summary of dispute by Jjj1238

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Summary of dispute by JohnR1Roberts

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Summary of dispute by Nickpunk

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Summary of dispute by MoreofaGlorifiedPond,Really...

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Summary of dispute by IJA

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• Comment I'm unsure why I've been included in this so-called dispute. I've not said anything whatsoever in regards to Israel. I simply said that I don't think that there should be a separate article re controversies (for those unfamiliar with the subject, there are controversies that had nothing to do with Israel), as it could lead to POV FORKING, and I stand by that belief. Having revisitedtge talk page, I really don't think there is any dispute to be noted. IJA (talk) 23:42, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Tonyb1989

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Summary of dispute by HypeBoy

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Summary of dispute by Uamaol

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Summary of dispute by Kapitan110295

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Eurovision Song Contest 2024 discussion

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