Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement
For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
See also: Logged AE sanctions
![]() | Important information Please use this page only to:
For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.
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Plot Spoiler
No action taken. Please make a new report for any new concerns. T. Canens (talk) 10:27, 18 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | |||
Request concerning Plot Spoiler
Previously blocked on 06:03, 3 June 2010, for violation of this same sanction. Newcomer editor Public awareness (talk · contribs) may also need to be warned under ARBPIA as a result of this exchange.
Discussion concerning Plot SpoilerStatement by Plot SpoilerPlease note, the ARBPIA notice was added to the page after all these reverts had been made. I did not see the ARBPIA restrictions on the page and honestly forgot about that rule. I think this is a relatively minor content issue between Public Awareness that should be covered on the article's Talk: page. Plot Spoiler (talk) 15:21, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Plot SpoilerComment Public awareness is on three reverts on the article in question, he is removing a quote which is sourced to the New York Times. The Last Angry Man (talk) 19:39, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, I did at the time of the edit remember something about very limited editing reverts for Israeli articles, but than I saw that Nableezy, AndresHerutJaim (190.17.232.48), and Plot Spoiler all made several quick reverts, so I did make a second revert. The situation was bleak so I went to Fastily (my go to admin) for advice, which I took and went to Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard for help. Vesal did agree with my edit on the talk page for the article, that the current form did "imply that the man is a hypocrite" though he did not agree it was a BLP violation. I'm sure to remember now that I can only revert once for Israeli articles, but, where should I go for help when it is instantly clear the other editor has no interest in listening to get outside help as my section at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard was closed for being "premature"? Public awareness (talk) 20:28, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
Regardless of the outcome of this complaint, I recommend that Public awareness be given the ARBPIA notice. (Plot Spoiler has already received it.) — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 23:26, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
Result concerning Plot Spoiler
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Atabəy
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Atabəy
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Khodabandeh14 (talk) 21:29, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Atabəy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- [remedies]
I am asking for permanent ban of Atabəy (talk · contribs) on Armenia/Iran related topics (and those of Armenia/Iran that overlap with any other topic). Note Atabəy (talk · contribs) had the previous name Atabek (talk · contribs) and has been in two arbcomms, as well as banned permanently from some topic. [remedies]
I would like to bring to attention my attempt to get a third party viewpoint on the discussion in Anti-Turkism as well as the discussion page in Anti-Turkism.
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- [2] violates WP:NPA WP:NOTBATTLE on two users, specially this quote attacking a third party mediator (not from the region but an expert on history) who gave his opinion. Atabey states: "@Folantin, instead of pandering to Khodabandeh14's nationalist WP:POV and attempting to insult me". So a 3rd party user is accused of "pandering to my nationalist POV"!
- [3] WP:SOAPBOX " I personally don't see how Hitler blaming Jews for troubles of Germany in Mein Kampf is different from Ferdowsi demonizing Turanians/Turks vs Persian pride in Shahnameh. One may look more ancient than the other, and no action would have been taken after Shahnameh, simply because Turks ruled Iran at the time. But it does not change the essence of intolerance" (user is equating a mythological book about mythical battles with Hitler/Mein Kemp which is WP:SOAPBOX] and inflammatory).
- [4] violates WP:ATTACK by first bolding the word you and then threatening the user to spend some time in Arbcomm. "So unless, you, Folantin, (not Khodabandeh with another WP:FORUM) can provide a sensible response to opinions of other authors about Shahnameh being essentially anti-Turkish "bible" of Persian nationalism, you should not be using LOLs, Oh Wells, or worse, calling me a fool. Moreover, if Khodabandeh14 uses your one-sided opinions in formulating an opinion in talk pages, then you should probably spend some time as a party to ArbCom case he is currently pursuing to open - that is taking a position in a handful of edit conflicts that he is involved with pushing POV. ". Clear violations of WP:NPA and WP:NOTBATTLE.
- [5] "It is impossible to conclude that in a country which takes pride of Shahnameh, and where expression "Tork-e khar" (Turkish donkey) is a popular way of insulting ethnic Turks, there is no Turcophobia whatsoever" WP:SOAP, and WP:NOTBATTLE.
- [6] "What is more relevant to this article, is that using the word Turk, Ferdowsi anachronisticially attributed to them an image of alien, an enemy. That is a reason why, compounded with numerous Turkic invasions, a deep sense of anti-Turkism is inherited over centuries in Persian-speaking society" violates WP:SOAP, and WP:NOTBATTLE. (Note the second part: "That is a reason why..." is not in a source and is a WP:SOAPBOX and WP:NOTBATTLE violation which is not any source. Basically that is like accusing all blacks to be anti-white or all whites to be anti-black...also not related to the topic at all).
- [7] " Iam just drawing comparison that by essence of anti-Turkish intolerance that Shahnameh has incited (which is obvious in ongoing edit conflicts of Khodabandeh14 on Turkey-Azerbaijan-Iran related topics), it was not far from Mein Kampf inciting anti-Semitism. You may consider my view in context of Goodwin's law, and I will consider your inability to respond in detail to references above to lack of time or interest. Hence, Khodabandeh14 simply cannot use your view as a conclusive third party opinion on Anti-Turkism. " (note the user is stating that I am pursuing "anti-Turkish intolerance" which is again violation of WP:SOAPBOX and WP:BATTLE. He has accused other users priorly of this charge and was one of the reasons he got sanctioned last time. For example his accusation on Kansas Bear with the charge of Turcophobia:[8])
- [9] I'll bring what a third party user said about the POV pushing. Folantin responding to Atabek's belittling WP:BATTLE/WP:SOAPBOX comment that "is Khodabandeh14 your Spokesperson"?. Folantin (responding to Atabek's accusation) wrote: "is Khodabandeh14 your spokesperson?" Khodabandeh has made some sensible, evidence-based comments about Ferdowsi. You have compared Ferdowsi to Hitler.. Who is responsible for your coming across as a fool here, him or you? Now if you don't mind I'm off to add Geoffrey of Monmouth to the Anglophobia article. His stories about King Arthur's resistance to the Anglo-Saxon invasion are dreadfully biased against my ancestors. Let's ignore the fact the English later adopted Arthur as one of their own, it doesn't disguise the innate racism and Celtic supremacism of Merlin and his bigoted ilk. There is no difference between The History of the Kings of Britain and Mein Kampf. -"" .. (the last three sentences are obviously sarcastic because of the bad POV atmosphere created by Atabek. Thus we can completely see that a 3rd neutral party expert sees clear POV pushing. Consequently my attempt to seek 3rd party mediation failed because of the POV pushing and WP:NOTBATTLE/WP:SOAPBOX comments).
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
Atabəy (talk · contribs) had the previous name Atabek (talk · contribs) and has been in two arbcomms, as well as banned permanently from some topic. [remedies]. The most recent sanction whose full report can be found here: [10] was in May 2011. The result was: "Atabəy (talk · contribs) is banned from Iranian topics including the Safavids for three months and is under an indefinite restriction to 1RR/week per the result of a thread at WP:AE. Notified. EdJohnston (talk) 04:09, 6 May 2011 (UTC)"[[11]] Saygi1 (talk · contribs) is notified: [12] --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 02:20, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
It would be good if EdJohnston looks at this case as he was the one that enforced the last sanction. He is familiar with my edits, Atabey's edit and Folantin's helpful comment as a 3rd party mediator.
I tried to make Arbcomm aware that the problem is POV battle pushing [13] which needs a mechanism like Russian wikipedia. If such a mechanism is not enforced, then I will quit. However, before quitting, I should note what made me propose such mechanism is exactly such users. I have wasted archives after archives with such users and it was a great waste of time. English wikipedia is too inept to unfortunately handle problematic articles in one day. So I decided to seek third party dispute resolution. I sought third party comments from two admins who are familiar with the classical history of the area and are known for the objectivity. However, the discussion ended with the admin concluding: "No, I'm done here. By comparing The Shahnameh and Mein Kampf and thus resorting to reductio ad Hitlerum, Atabey has violated Godwin's law and the discussion is therefore over. "[14]. This is a result of WP:SOAPBOX, WP:NPA and WP:NOBATTLE. So even though the Arbcomm case is likely not approved (because they claim that other methods exists which does not), I tried third party dispute resolution, and instead the comments above popped out. I might have made some comments myself outside the discussion, but this has to do with past experience and evidence I sent to arbcomm. All the above are violations of fundamental policies. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 16:45, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
As I said the admin EdJohnston is very familiar with this user and the case. So this report was made due to the fact that he emposed the previous section. At one point in his talkpage, he was about to give a permanent ban to Atabek for WP:NOTBATTLE comments and not cooperating with a 3rd party. This time, he did not cooperate at all with two 3rd party admins. He was the one gave the last sanction to Atabek in May (banned for 3 months on all Iran related topics). My record is clean and I have not had any prior AA warnings. I also can answer all the chargers below:
- Charge 1 of Atabek is baseless as I am trying to get opinions for an Arbcomm on a proposal from users who are experiencing nationalistic bickering and also admins who had to constantly deal with the issue. It is not canvassing for votes, but rather to get feedback on a proposal.
- Charge 2 is a report to EdJohnston on his page, but EdJohnston as usual would want a formal request. This is all it is. No violation of wikipedia rule.
- Charge 3 Dbachmman/Folantin actually left the discussion after Atabek's comment not mine. They never made any negative comments about my messages, but they made several on Atabek['s comments.
- Charge 4 is a copy & paste from an open site. I copied & paste some messages from that open site and by mistake a name popped out. The next message I delete the name (2 minutes later). The message can be deleted for good as it was a copy & paste mistake. I just wanted to demonstrate that there is actual racism going on the off-line wikipedia lists and user should not be preaching to Dbachmann. I believe the user brought the Hitler, Nazis, Mein Kemp, Skinhead and etc. into unrelated discussion due to Dbachmann's Germany ancestory. As far as I know that evidence I sent to Arbcomm was accepted by Arbcomm never took action. As noted in Russian wikipedia such a list was used to ban 30 people. But admins can always delete any message that they properly deem violates any privacy concern as I try to follow that rule to the best of my knowledge (when I deleted a name 2 minutes after). I have had no prior violations.
- I should note that I am not a party in AA1 or AA2, and only had one violation in my whole editing history which was overtuned quickly. This cannot compare to a user who had multiple AA1/AA2 violations and none of my comments demonstrate WP:BATTLE as I initiated the feedback from Dbachmman and Folantin (who firmly rejected the POV push of the user).
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- [15] (user notified)
@Tznkai, thanks for the proposal but also I would like to get the feedback of EdJohnston who is familiar with the case. I have no prior topic bans, AA warnings or etc. The user on the other hand was topic banned recently. Admins need to go through the comments carefully. I asked for 3rd party feedback and the third party was attacked by: ""@Folantin, instead of pandering to Khodabandeh14's nationalist WP:POV ". Basically, the admins need to reread the discussion that took place. As I said, EdJohnston is very familiar with this case and he handed out a 3 month ban on Atabek in late May 2011. So I really want to hear his feedback on this issue as well. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 18:53, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Just wanted to note that there is more bad accusations here. Atabek claims I reverted him here: [16] which is a bad faith accusation, since he was banned from that article for POV pushing. That is right, he was topic banned from that specific article for POV pushing (see the discussion there where he uses a 1909 popular source to push POV against all evidence). In that page, he pushed "Two sources from 1905 and 1913" while ignoring all modern sources. I think if admins look at that 2008 edits (for he was topic banned from that article) and compare to his modern edits, there is no improvement as it is all about pushing a sort of ethnic agenda. But my edit had nothing to with Atabek, rather I added sources to the article and looked at the talkpage. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 20:14, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
I would like to recall the previous AE sanction case which I filed against Atabek [17]. What makes the admins think that a 6 month ban is sufficient? I have a clean record and I was not involved in AA1/AA2 topics. I asked for mediation and instead the user brought up hitler, mein kemp and accused the 3rd party neutral user of ""@Folantin, instead of pandering to Khodabandeh14's nationalist WP:POV ". I do really believe sanctions are needed here, and although I could not see any mistakes by myself, I do see huge violations of WP:NPA and WP:NOTBATTLE from Atabek. Specifically, when he gets into a disagreement, he has several time accused users of anti-Turkism or what not. Simply the atmosphere created by the user is not conducive to wikipedia. How many chances do users get? Just note he did not listen a 3rd party mediator here (Gareth) here either: [18][19]. Just one quote: " I still fail to see why Tigran is pushing Armenian POV, when Abgar had nothing to do with Armenia. Tiridates acceptance of Christianity in Armenia was also a legend, so there is no reason why one legend is more important than the other, while several authors confirm the fact of Abgar VIII's acceptance of Christianity by 201. I am ready to present more references to my edit, than dozens already presented in my version. But the information is already out, and it won't be possible to hide facts by historical fabrications, POV pushing/edit warring this time.". You might ask why would a user be interested in such a rare topic? It is because he does not want Armenia to be known as the first Christian state (something generally agreed upon by scholarship today). This goes back to the third century A.D., and the user simply is fighting now battles about 3rd century A.D. and 10th century A.D. (Shahnama). --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 20:36, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
I consider the RfC of Atabek in bad faith as already two neutral users gave their opinion. But I am not going to let the user have a one-sided viewpoint there.--Khodabandeh14 (talk) 00:36, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
I would also like the sanctions to apply to User:Sayig1 here: [20] --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 00:50, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Atabəy
Statement by Atabəy
This frivolous reporting by User:Khodabandeh14 (previously known as User:Nepaheshgar and User:Ali doostzadeh) follows his consecutive WP:CANVASS attempts targeting me:
- 1. Attempt to bait several contributors, including myself, into another ArbCom case, which is currently being declined; obviously wasting community resources while not exploring other paths towards consensus. This also includes Khodabandeh14's WP:BATTLE and WP:CANVASS attempt to engage User:MarshallBagramyan - [21], User:Takabeg - [22], User:Folantin - [23], User:EdJohnston - [24], User:Lezgistxa - [25], User:Sandstein - [26], User:Vacio - [27], User:Kansas Bear - [28] in an ArbCom case against a group of users with which Khodabandeh14 disagrees.
- 2. Frivolous reporting to User_talk:EdJohnston, who did not comment on the case.
- 3. Massive WP:FORUM staged by Khodabandeh14 at User_talk:Dbachmann, not letting other users to speak for themselves, and acting as their spokesperson. Interested arbitrators can follow this thread on Dbachmann's page, to carefully review the rhetoric of Khodabandeh14 and myself.
- 4. WP:HARASSMENT violation attempting to link me to a real-life identity, using some controversial spam site which published someone's private email online.
At Talk:Anti-Turkism, Talk:Flag of South Azerbaijan and Talk:Azerbaijani people, User:Khodabandeh14 exhibits extremely disruptive WP:BATTLE behavior, refusing to come to any consensus, acting WP:OWN, pushing WP:POV, using WP:PEACOCK wording towards any author he disagrees with, WP:SOAP labeling them as nationalists. Just look at his admission: "I believe the third parties gave a sufficient response. That is why exactly this went to enforcement". This implies that he is using Arbitration Enforcement as a way to intimidate contributor with a threat of sanctions, in order to push his WP:POV in an article.
Assuming good faith, in an attempt to achieve consensus with him, I made a proposal at Talk:Anti-Turkism. But Khodabandeh14 is clearly dismissing any source that he disagrees with, focusing only on his WP:POV or else, the objective to get me sanctioned.
In his prior WP:HARASSMENT, few months ago, User:Khodabandeh14 succeeded by having User:EdJohnston temporarily restrict me from editing pages like Safavid dynasty. Despite EdJohnston's promise to lift this restriction on certain conditions that he suggested, after my appeal and my fulfillment of those conditions, the restriction was forgotten and not lifted, and I did not have time then to follow through the case. But it is obvious that instead of working on articles, and emboldened by such support, User:Khodabandeh14 is now targeting contributors.
I ask AE to remind User:Khodabandeh14 to be more patient and WP:AGF, to constructively participate in talk page discussions, and to leave my identity alone, simply because it is irrelevant to the topics of pages that we edit. I am also expecting AE action in regards to the item 4, which is a severe violation. I mean why is Khodabandeh14 is allowed to go around freely alleging my real-life name? Is this something acceptable in Wikipedia? And I am completely disappointed as to why, being actively involved in all WP:AA2 edit conflicts, User:Khodabandeh14 remains free of any arbitration enforcement and is even allowed to harass contributors?!
- P.S. Just an example in item 5 of Khodabandeh14's frivolous reporting, the words I used and he claims as WP:SOAP, come from a scholarly source here: "Turan of the Shahnama are not the historic Turks with which Firdausi anachronistically equates them "
Thanks. Atabəy (talk) 21:43, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
- @Tznkai, completely agree. I am sorry for having to waste my time here, but I wasn't the one who opened this case, so I have no other option but to respond. I already made a good faith proposal, but unfortunately instead of discussing, Khodabandeh14 still wants to pursue other objectives. Atabəy (talk) 00:07, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
- I would like to request adding User:Kurdo777 to the sanctions. Thanks.Atabəy (talk) 02:57, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
For information of Arbitration Enforcement, at my request at WP:Oversight purged out comments by KHodabandeh14, attempting to link me to a person in violation of WP:HARASSMENT. I kindly ask AE to take actions to prevent repeated violations of the policy by User:Khodabandeh14. The topic disagreements can be resolved on talk pages of the articles, via RfCs, and other currently pursued methods. Thanks. Atabəy (talk) 02:54, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Regarding the bad faith comments by User:Khoikhoi about myself. Back in January 2008, he endorsed an unfounded allegation that User:Ehud Lesar was a sockpuppet of User:AdilBaguirov, based on claims made up by a group of WP:BATTLE editors. The allegations were found to be untrue. This one ArbCom case, however, demonstrated the issues with neutrality of User:Khoikhoi when it comes to WP:AA2 cases. So, I suggest that before accusing me in bad faith, in traditional support of User:Khodabandeh14, he produces some facts as to what have I violated to be the subject of this current AE report? Atabəy (talk) 23:27, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
Questions about AE decision
@Tznkai, and other supporting administrators, your decision below raises the following question:
- Will there be any action taken about WP:HARASSMENT violation by User:Khodabandeh14 or I should take that to a different board? Is this rule enforced by WP:AE?
- In May 2011, following my topic ban from Iran-related articles after frivolous report by Khodabandeh14, I was suggested by User:EdJohnston to open an RfC and to follow through with achieving consensus on Talk:Safavid dynasty. I did so, but the ban was not lifted. Can I know the reason?
- If I am asked to create a Good Article, but at the same time banned from editing articles, how can do so?
Thanks. Atabəy (talk) 23:12, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
- FYI, as a last resort, in good faith, I initiated a Request for Comment on Talk:Anti-Turkism regarding the disputed subject. Thanks. Atabəy (talk) 23:43, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Atabəy
Does this read to anyone else as "You-suck!-No-you-suck!"--Tznkai (talk) 23:23, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
- Yes. Put them both on chairs in the corner for time out? KillerChihuahua?!?Advice 14:49, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Result concerning Atabəy
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
- Directed at both Atabəy and User:Khodabandeh14, based primarily on your behavior here, and a brief perusal of your contributions, it seems that your sole activities on Wikipedia are getting into ideological editing struggles over what I will loosely call Western Asia/Eastern European nationalism and the bloody history thereof, and then getting into personal fights via our dispute resolution mechanisms. This is the very definition of abusing Wikipedia as a battleground. I suppose I could waste all of our times making a more detailed and nuanced assessment and apportion blame in a precise manner, but I do not see benefits outweighing the costs.
Both Atabəy and User:Khodabandeh14 are:
- topic banned from all edits in article and article talk space concerning the topic of Eastern European or West Asian nationalism, which includes but is not limited to any nation, ethnicity, people, state, region, person, ideology, entity, work of art, origin of food items, or historical event in Eastern Europe, Northern and Central Asia Division, East Central and South-East Europe Division, Western Asia regions as defined by the United Nations; and
- are so banned for six months, starting October 16 00:00 UTC; and
- a ban will be suspended upon proof to either myself, a consensus of administrators on AE or a neutral process such as Good Articles, that you can write in a collaborative manner and produce by improvement, well written and well sourced articles
If either of you, or anyone else, in your attempts to get the good behavior suspension disrupts previously stable forums, I will move onto blocks. You have until the ban starts to make further comments, or point me at other editors whose behavior also justifies being included in the topic ban as described above. You may also consider an appeal, and as always, my fellow administrators are encouraged to comment as well.--Tznkai (talk) 18:40, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
- Khodabandeh14, this is not a proposal, its a sanction. I would also welcome EdJohnston's comments. You might want to get his attention quicklike.--Tznkai (talk) 18:59, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
- Atabəy, we are not arbitrators, but administrators. You can always go over our heads to the Arbitration Committee if you wish. Second, your behavior in this enforcement request is an independently sufficient ground to show you are violating editing norms. It is your actions, and choices that I am acting on.--Tznkai (talk) 21:44, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
- Start with and pick an article that doesn't fall within the topic ban.--Tznkai (talk) 23:17, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
- Khodabandeh14, please notify user:Saygi1 and post the notification here.--Tznkai (talk) 01:44, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- Start with and pick an article that doesn't fall within the topic ban.--Tznkai (talk) 23:17, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
- Atabəy, we are not arbitrators, but administrators. You can always go over our heads to the Arbitration Committee if you wish. Second, your behavior in this enforcement request is an independently sufficient ground to show you are violating editing norms. It is your actions, and choices that I am acting on.--Tznkai (talk) 21:44, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
- Concur with Tzn; good call. KillerChihuahua?!?Advice 19:26, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
- The sanction on both editors which Tznkai proposed above sounds good to me. EdJohnston (talk) 20:20, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose for now. User:Khodabandeh14 has a clean block log. This is an area where there is a lot of nationalistic editing and those who oppose it are often targeted by nationalists. I'm not convinced that there is suffficient rationale here to treat both editors the same way. I'm not saying I can't be convinced, just that I'm aware that this is a difficult area in which to work and I wish to be assured that we are not banning a basically constructive editor from it and thereby perhaps creating more problems for those trying to maintain an NPOV position in this area. Dougweller (talk) 06:20, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- what Dougweller said. Go easy on the topic bans. You can always encourage admins to adopt a zero-tolerance for temporary blocks over disruptive behaviour. Or a 1RR policy or something. For the "well-meaning but agenda-driven hothead" type of editor, it is more than enough to impose a week-long cool-down block every time they get out of line. Strictly speaking I don't see why the arbcom is required for something like this, as it is within the authority of admins. But there you are. This can easily be fixed on the admin level just as long as admins are alerted to the problem and encouraged to issue temporary blocks. Imho the arbcom should limit itself to do just that. --dab (𒁳) 11:47, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- Just like Dougweller and dab, I'm opposed to treating Khodabandeh14 the same way as Atabəy. I've been one of the most active administrators in this topical area and I've witnessed the behavior of these two editors first-hand over the years. Atabəy has more than earned his topic ban. To be frank, he should had been permanently banned a long time ago, but the admins have been too soft on him, giving him chance after chance that he's burnt. Khodabandeh14 on the other hand, while displaying signs of compulsive and combative behavior, is generally a constructive editor with good research skills, and who helps keep this area of articles NPOV. He may be a hothead sometimes, but anyone else constantly dealing with nationalist trolls like Atabəy who are always engaged in gaming -- is going to be prone to lose control every now and then. As Dab said, a week-long cool-down break in the form of a ban should be more than enough to deal with Khodabandeh14. Atabəy, I am afraid though, is a lost cause. Khoikhoi 16:51, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- I've been significantly swamped in meatspace, so have been unable to fully follow up on this. I hope to rectify that within the next 24 hours. In the meantime, I have considered the opposing opinions, and I have found them ultimately unpersuasive. These seem to be appeals to a notion of justice in punishment: equal crime doing equal time. As we have droned on and on, bans are not punishments, but tools for preventing harm. The behavior here justifies the action independently. It is not only outside of our mandate and abilities to Do Justice, a practice best left to philosopher-kings, but ill advised in the AE context, where fine tuning lengths as a sorting function of who is the "worst" encourages even lengthier complaints and game playing behavior. Furthermore, the topic ban has a structural out. If one party is fundamentally a better editor, they will escape the ban much sooner.
- I am generally of the mind that administrators should try to achieve consensus when possible, even with discretionary sanctions. However, I also balance those concerns that the need for relatively swift conclusion, and the implicit err-on-the-side-of-action implied in the broad grant of administrator discretion in discretionary sanction remedies. To that extent, I am logging the sanctions, but leaving this thread open for investigation of other users in related dispute, as well as to independently investigate and entertain arguments that Khodabandeh14 has been inappropriately sanctioned. Please bear in mind that Khodabandeh14 has apparently left Wikipedia indefinitely. Perhaps he or she will be back if the topic area is brought to heel.--Tznkai (talk) 06:02, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
Jonchapple
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Jonchapple
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Domer48'fenian' 08:44, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Jonchapple (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Per Result concerning Jonchapple Terms of probation and Enforcement
All articles related to The Troubles, defined as: any article that could be reasonably construed as being related to The Troubles, Irish nationalism, and British nationalism in relation to Ireland falls under WP:1RR (one revert per editor per article per 24 hour period). When in doubt, assume it is related.
Terms of probation Participants placed on probation are limited to one revert per article per week with respect to the set of articles included in the probation. Any participant may be briefly banned for personal attacks or incivility. Reversion of edits by anonymous IPs do not count as a revert.
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 18:04, 13 October 2011 First Revert
- 19:55, 13 October 2011 Second Revert
- 20:46, 13 October 2011 Third Revert
Additional Violation of Probation since report was filed.
All articles related to The Troubles, defined as: any article that could be reasonably construed as being related to The Troubles, Irish nationalism, and British nationalism in relation to Ireland falls under WP:1RR (one revert per editor per article per 24 hour period). When in doubt, assume it is related.
Terms of probation Participants placed on probation are limited to one revert per article per week with respect to the set of articles included in the probation. Any participant may be briefly banned for personal attacks or incivility. Reversion of edits by anonymous IPs do not count as a revert.
- 11:27, 17 October 2011 First Revert adds Flag against WP:MOSFLAG in addition to changing Nationality from Irish to British with sources making no mention of British.
- 08:40, 18 October 2011 Second Revert, Per previous again adding flag against WP:MOSFLAG and ref which dose not support addition. Notice the big green race car with big shamrock not to mention the Team Ireland logo's. Editor accepts that they are editing against the terms of their probation by reverting on British Nationality.
Again:
- 06:57, 18 October 2011 First Revert: Again reverting over British Nationality.
- 09:49, 18 October 2011 Second Revert: As previous, again Nationality.
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- Prior Notices of 1 RR [29][30][31][32][33][34]Violation of Terms of probation notice
- Warned on 19:34, 14 August 2011 by KillerChihuahua (talk · contribs)
- Warned on 16:24, 14 August 2011 by EdJohnston (talk · contribs) who made them aware of the Terms of probation
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- The editor is well aware of the enforcement and sanctions, and has made it a habit of arguing the point regardless. As the notices placed on their talk page illustrate, this disruption is over a number of articles. The editor is knowingly violating this enforcement. Should addition diff be required I'm more than happy to provide them.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- [35]
Discussion concerning Jonchapple
Statement by Jonchapple
I am fully aware of the sanctions under which I'm placed, but I haven't broken 1RR on any articles that come under the scope of the Troubles restrictions. If you've got some more diffs that prove I have, please provide them. JonCTalk 08:57, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- One Night in Hackney, Flags of country subdivisions is not an article related to The Troubles, British nationalism in Ireland, the Ulster Banner or British baronets. It's a gallery of flags used by subdivisions of states from around the world. It's as equally related to Argentinian nationalism, Australian nationalism, Austrian nationalism, Belorussian nationalism, etc. JonCTalk 09:11, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- With respect, KillerChihuahua, I'm not trying to offer up an "I didn't know!" defence, merely stating that the article in question clearly isn't covered by the Troubles restriction. Per Template:Troubles restriction, articles subject to the restriction are defined as: "any article that could be reasonably construed as being related to The Troubles, Irish nationalism, and British nationalism in relation to Ireland". Flags of country subdivisions isn't, and as such isn't subject to 1RR. JonCTalk 14:44, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- I can't believe this is even being considered. So, what – anything that mentions Northern Ireland even in passing is now subject to Troubles restrictions? Is Georgie Best? The Titanic?
- Or is it the fact that paramilitary groups identified with the Ulster banner? Is the Flag of Ireland under a hidden 1RR too because it was used by republican groups? Honestly, I don't even know where we're at here. Maybe I'll just have to get into, say, birdwatching instead. Hope there's no birds in Northern Ireland. JonCTalk 16:22, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'll only say this one more time: Flags of country subdivisions doesn't fall under the Troubles restrictions. Is anyone actually going to address this? JonCTalk 23:38, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- With respect, KillerChihuahua, I'm not trying to offer up an "I didn't know!" defence, merely stating that the article in question clearly isn't covered by the Troubles restriction. Per Template:Troubles restriction, articles subject to the restriction are defined as: "any article that could be reasonably construed as being related to The Troubles, Irish nationalism, and British nationalism in relation to Ireland". Flags of country subdivisions isn't, and as such isn't subject to 1RR. JonCTalk 14:44, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
If you'd bothered to look at the page history of Adam Carroll, you'd notice the flag and British nationality have always been there as he's a racing driver that races with a British licence. From WP:MOSFLAG: "Flag icons may be relevant in some subject areas, where the subject actually represents that country, government, or nationality - such as military units, government officials, or national sports teams." (emphasis mine). This is the convention for racing drivers on Wikipedia, as the infobox is their racing infobox that displays their sporting information, including the country that they represent. I have now provided two sources from the two racing leagues Carroll has raced in since 2010 that clearly show he races as a Briton. You shouldn't edit articles related to subjects you clearly know nothing about (and have only found by trawling through my edit history; not for the first time). JonCTalk 12:52, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
In response to One Ton Depot's assertion that he finds it "hard to reconcile with his comment a few months ago in the Nationality RFC that [he's] 'in agreement that the Anglo-Irish disambiguator is neccessary here'", I'd just like to make it clear that that particular discussion was for what should appear in the lead. I don't believe there was any discussion about what nationality should be in the infobox. Thanks. JonCTalk 11:17, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Jonchapple
Considering the probation section reads "To address the extensive edit-warring that has taken place on articles relating to The Troubles, as well as the Ulster banner and British baronets, any user who hereafter engages in edit-warring or disruptive editing on these or related articles" (emphasis added) and Jonchapple is indeed edit warring regarding the Ulster Banner, his defence is incorrect, particularly as he is "fully aware of the sanctions under which I'm placed". 2 lines of K303 09:03, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- If an article has got the Ulster Banner in and you're edit warring over it, it's a related article. If an article has got the Ulster Banner in and you're edit warring over some other part of it, it's not a related article. It's not rocket science... 2 lines of K303 09:20, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- more troubles
- See Ernest Shackleton and Talk:Ernest Shackleton#redux.
- Jonchapple has been systematically edit-warring over the terms Anglo-Irish and British on this article since February. There's a large RFC on the very issue just above the redux link: Talk:Ernest Shackleton#Nationality. Jonchapple even agreed that "Anglo-Irish is good". For reference:
- [36]; Anglo-Irish to British, with link changes, too. [37]; removes Irish-born. [38]; adds Anglo- resulting in Anglo-Irish. Followed immediatly by: [39]; Nationality to British. [40]; Nationality to British, again. [41]; Nationality to British, again, removing a source re Anglo-Irish (BBC, ironically). [42]; Nationality to British, yet again, and yet again removing the BBC link. In this edit summary, it is asserted that Anglo-Irish was just added five days ago (which would be the edit by me, where I linked the BBC page): [43]; Anglo-Irish sourced to BBC.
- [44]; Jonchapple agrees with a request for comment that "Anglo-Irish is good. :)"
- Since posting, here, I've read this whole thread and the older one (and see that two of the reverts I mentioned were previously given). Jonchapple has removed my post to his talk page about this and posted on mine protesting that he believes 'British' was the stable version. I find this hard to reconcile with his comment a few months ago in the Nationality RFC that [he's] "in agreement that the Anglo-Irish disambiguator is neccessary here." Say one thing and do another, I guess.
- He's been at this article for 8 months, and is here for more of the same, on others. Someone clarify just why he should ever edit regarding anything British/Irish again? It's disruptive, and takes time that would be better spent improving articles.
- One Ton Depot (talk) 11:01, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Result concerning Jonchapple
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
He's already on probation, the only option left is a block. I suggest a one week block, and if he comes back and does it again, block for increasing periods of time until he either learns or is indef'd. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but we have had enough of this "I didn't know!" defense from this editor, and I am disinclined to suspend disbelief enough to believe this is sincere this time. I almost simply blocked and then closed this, but would appreciate other admins offering their views before taking this step. KillerChihuahua?!?Advice 14:30, 14 October 2011 (UTC)Support 3 month topic ban per updated options, see below. KillerChihuahua?!?Advice 15:56, 14 October 2011 (UTC)- Jonchapple was here at AE as recently as September 24, which is later than the August appearance which led to his Troubles probation. See the closure of that AE. When closing, I stated "I'm closing this with no action. However any new appearances of Jonchapple here at AE in the next three months, as either the source or the target of complaints, could cause the issue to be revisited." The reason for the AE complaint was this comment by Jon in his edit summary, referring to Domer48 as 'Dumbo48': "Seeing as Dumbo48 won't play nice, let's remove the republican links from this article". During the discussion at that AE, participants (including one arbitrator) stated that WP:TROUBLES could be interpreted nowadays as allowing bans from the area of conflict. Since that AE was about to close with a 3-month topic ban, I propose that we now go ahead and issue the topic ban that was previously considered. The mention of the Ulster banner in the Troubles arbcom case surely allows banner-related edits to fall under Troubles enforcement. EdJohnston (talk) 15:53, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- I had forgotten that, thank you for reminding me. I support a 3-month topic ban for this editor. So glad we're not painted into the "block or nothing" corner. KillerChihuahua?!?Advice 15:55, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- Does WP:TROUBLES give us the authority to hand out a topic ban? --Mkativerata (talk) 19:27, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- See the discussion in the Result section of the last AE about Jonchapple for the logic of giving out topic bans under TROUBLES. EdJohnston (talk) 19:31, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you. That is fine with me. Perhaps we should ask Arbcom for a clarification or amendment to make it official. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:34, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- It might be nice to have a note, I forgot this myself, and I was part of the discussion - but do we need to pester Arbcom with that? Ask a clerk, maybe? Or Coren, since he was the one who commented on the earlier case? KillerChihuahua?!? 19:42, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- Definitely wouldn't hurt to have this clearly on the record - and I am still of the opinion that the Troubles remedy provisions should be revamped. T. Canens (talk) 05:25, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- Speaking as one of the original administrators in this area (which is a reason I have recused myself as an arbitrator), I am in the firm opinion that from practice as well as theory that a topic ban is within the bounds of the Troubles discretionary sanctions, and while recused, issue a statement supporting this in any such clarification request. I am not going to speak on the APPROPRIATENESS of the sanction (administrative recusal), just the validity of the sanction itself). SirFozzie (talk) 20:27, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- Definitely wouldn't hurt to have this clearly on the record - and I am still of the opinion that the Troubles remedy provisions should be revamped. T. Canens (talk) 05:25, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- It might be nice to have a note, I forgot this myself, and I was part of the discussion - but do we need to pester Arbcom with that? Ask a clerk, maybe? Or Coren, since he was the one who commented on the earlier case? KillerChihuahua?!? 19:42, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you. That is fine with me. Perhaps we should ask Arbcom for a clarification or amendment to make it official. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:34, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- So are we in agreement on the sanction as proposed by EdJohnston? KillerChihuahua?!? 22:42, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- 3 months is probably lenient considering the last thread, but it's fine with me. T. Canens (talk) 09:33, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- 3 months, then, and if he's back before the three months is up we'll look at other measures. KillerChihuahua?!? 11:29, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- 3 months is probably lenient considering the last thread, but it's fine with me. T. Canens (talk) 09:33, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- See the discussion in the Result section of the last AE about Jonchapple for the logic of giving out topic bans under TROUBLES. EdJohnston (talk) 19:31, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'll go ahead and propose to the committee that we make a quick motion to bring the Troubles remedy in line with our now-standardized discretionary sanctions. I've little doubt that this preserves the original intent and simplifies things for future enforcement. For now, I agree that a topic ban is a reasonable application of administrative discretion even though a strict reading of this older remedy does not directly support it. — Coren (talk) 01:33, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- thanks much, this will make things much more even. KillerChihuahua?!? 22:42, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Bdell555
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Bdell555
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- 2 lines of K303 09:18, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Bdell555 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles#Final remedies for AE case
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 07:45, 13 October 2011 Revert#1, adding back text originally added by Dbell555 here
- 02:32, 14 October 2011 Revert#2, within 24 hours of the previous revert
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- Warned on 16:25, 17 June 2010 by RepublicanJacobite (talk · contribs)
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
In addition to being a violation of 1RR, the edit is also a violation of WP:BLP and WP:SYN. I'll give some brief background just to help make it clear why. During The Troubles, the Provisional Irish Republican Army and/or Sinn Féin did at various times conducted both direct and indirect talks with the British Government or their representatives, including the 1972 talks when IRA members were flown to London, during the 1975 IRA ceasefire, during the 1980/1981 hunger strikers, and during the early 1990s. Throughout The Troubles, but completely unrelated to those talks, IRA members became informers and passed information to the police, army, MI5 or similar. Therefore to have a sentence in Martin McGuinness's article reading "He was in indirect contact with British intelligence during the hunger strikes in the early 1980s, and again in the early 1990s, but in a BBC interview stated that the penalty for "go[ing] over to the other side" was "death, certainly." It insinuates Martin McGuinness "went over to the other side" by talking with the British, when he didn't and he's talking about IRA members, who are well aware the penalty for informing is death as it's in the Green Book which they have to read before being sworn in. So it's synthesis to try and conflate two different issues, especially to add a BLP violating insinuation. But when all's said and done anyway, it's a 1RR violation no matter what. 2 lines of K303 09:18, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- I feel like I've stepped into some strange alternate universe where nothing makes sense.
- There is the original addition of the text, reading "although he stated that the penalty for fellow Republicans who "went over to the other side" was death.<ref>[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch5u8YbOyIE McGuinness interview]</ref>"
- http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Martin_McGuinness&action=historysubmit&diff=455336065&oldid=455332631 There] is the first revert, reading "although he stated that the penalty for fellow Republicans who "went over to the other side" was death.<ref>[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch5u8YbOyIE McGuinness interview]</ref>"
- Both edits were made by Bdell555, so the first revert was not some innocent mistake where he was adding back material previously added by another editor, it was a clear and unambiguous revert.
- Claiming that adding information to a completely unrelated article, which was once deleted, would be a revert because the article was deleted, well I hope anyone can see the amount of wikilawyering involved in that one.
- RepublicanJacobite's revert included WP:SYN in the edit summary, no attempt was made to comply with that with the second revert, nor was there any attempt to discuss on the talk page.
- Given Bdell555 is stil edit warring to include this without attempting to discuss, hopefully this can be dealt with soon? 2 lines of K303 11:54, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- [45]
Discussion concerning Bdell555
Statement by Bdell555
In the above complaint, "Revert#2" is followed by "within 24 hours" in order to argue that this is an edit warring reversion. If time frame is relevant, and Wikipedia policy seems to indicate it is, then "Revert#1" should be followed by "within 16 months". This information is excluded, of course, because it doesn't support the claim that "Revert#1" is really a "revert" under a definition relevant to whether someone is edit warring. If one is to insist there isn't an identity and change issue by deeming the passage of 16 months and hundreds of intermediate edits to the article irrelevant, then by this logic I could return to, say, the Down with Webster article 50 years from now and ANY addition I make to the article could potentially be cited as a "reversion" in an edit warring complaint. Why? Because given that someone deleted the article in 2009, any addition I make, even in the distant future, is arguably a "reversion" of another's "work" (which was to delete everything). If an editor has declined to edit an article for more than 15 months, may I suggest that he or she has stopped edit warring? In the case at hand, I would dispute whether there was an edit war in the first place, given that last summer when my work was reverted I just let it remain deleted at that time. As for the content dispute, my "Revert#2" already attempted to answer an edit summary objection to my alleged "Revert#1". Any WP:SYN problem here could have been corrected by moving the material I added to somewhere else instead of deleting it, and instead of trying to cram this additional objection into an edit summary, the complainant could have explained his views on my User page, or better yet on the article Talk page, as opposed to first and finally introducing his argument here. However you want to define "edit warring" technically, in my mind it is undoing another editor's work without trying to minimize the undoing (e.g. by not making an effort to just partially revert or move, etc), without trying to work with the other editor(s) by changing the edit according to their objection(s), and without addressing the issue on the article Talk page. Given that more than a third of my edits to article and Talk pages are to the Talk pages, it is not like I am unwilling to discuss should the complainant be so inclined.--Brian Dell (talk) 09:06, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- To respond to the new allegations: 1) I have never claimed to be "adding back material previously added by another editor" and I have not called attention to any real or hypothetical cases involving this by way of argument (since those instances are irrelevant). My "innocent mistake" was thinking the "clock had restarted" after more than 15 months since the "clock" appears to be integral to determining whether edit warring is going on, both formally and in terms of common sense. If it NEVER restarts the guidelines should state that explicitly, in my view, because absent that people are going to make their own common sense assumptions about when edit wars begin and end. 2) re "wiki-lawyering" I'm not the party trying to take this content dispute to "court" 3) I "attempt[ed] to comply" with the WP:SYN objection with my latest edit and the complainant promptly responded by indicating that, as I suspected, this would not resolve the objection anyway! 4) the Talk page discussion, which in my view should have been initiated by the complainant before coming here to make demands on already busy admins, is underway now that the complainant has made some remarks warranting a longer response than an edit summary can provide.--Brian Dell (talk) 14:37, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Bdell555
Result concerning Bdell555
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
- Both of the edits listed above restore the phrase "over to the other side", which had previously been deleted by another editor. So there are in fact two reverts in 24 hours by Bdell555, and this is an actual 1RR violation. It should not be necessary to understand the complaint about WP:Synthesis to determine if this is a Troubles violation. A 24-hour block is a common remedy for a 1RR violation but it might be avoided if the editor will promise to avoid all Troubles articles for a month. EdJohnston (talk) 16:07, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Ludwigs2
Appeal unsuccessful. T. Canens (talk) 13:51, 18 October 2011 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Statement by Ludwigs2This topic ban was improper for the following reasons:
Proposed resolution to the Appeal I would like the topic ban lifted under the same conditions (slightly modified, for reasons given above) that I offered on the AE page:
Modifications are, of course, welcome if further guarantees are necessary on the project's side: my main concern is relief from punitive sanctions and some guarantee on my side that this ruling does not become an excuse to impose future sanctions vindictively. This is going to be my behavior regardless. Whether or not this sanction is lifted, I will be entering discussions on articles where I will run against this strong cultural bias, so it is obvious that I will need to be deeply circumspect in my actions regardless. We might as well begin on the astrology page now rather than later; the ban serves no particular purpose. --Ludwigs2 17:19, 14 October 2011 (UTC) quick response to KC, before I'm off for the day
KC, you are simply not being reasonable. --Ludwigs2 18:29, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Statement by KillerChihuahuaResponse to points as numbered by Ludwigs:
Please let me know if there are any questions, thank you. KillerChihuahua?!? 17:51, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Comment by BecriticalI think the Ludwigs has earned himself some sanction, certainly, for being chronically uncivil. But the way it looks to me he has stated that he will not be uncivil anymore. Thus, I think 6 months is harsh. I was expecting something more like two weeks or a month, and then another chance to see if he can be civil and not refer to groups of editors in a negative manner. I would suggest revising the ban period to two weeks or a month, then give a longer ban if things do not go well when he comes back. He does have useful ideas on the articles where he edits. He is also correct that the more scientifically oriented editors are nasty to the advocates a lot. This is a fact for what it's worth. It is obvious that there are two sides at the article, and it would be unreasonable to try and make Ludwigs never mention that fact. The two sides obviously come from different social milieus. How about if he promises not to make his own behavior contingent on the behavior of others? Because I've been observing him for some time now, and eliminating that excuse would go 90% of the way to either having him be civil, or else be uncivil with no excuse at all. Be——Critical 19:20, 14 October 2011 (UTC) Comment OliveAs long as a solution has been offered by Ludwigs as an effort to correct his own behaviour then a sanction becomes only necessary as a secondary step, that is, if the first step, in a community that professes to be non punitive, isn't effective. Self correction on Wikipedia by implication is a superior and preferred way to deal with behaviour that is not community accepted. And Ludwigs is right. Name calling is rampant in regards to some editors and by some editors.The truly unfortunate aspect is that this name calling has become so commonplace, like fringe POV pushers, advocate, and worse, and has become so engrained in the Wikipedia culture that it is accepted, brushed aside with out notice, or ignored. If any aspects of Ludwigs proposal isn't acceptable remove it , and amend the proposal. Always, our position must be to help editors improve behaviours, and to do so in a way that does not punish good and productive editors. Seems a simple, first-step solution has been offered. (olive (talk) 21:00, 14 October 2011 (UTC)) Comment by A Quest for KnowledgeI have not participated in the discussion on the Astrology talk page, but I have followed it over the course of the last week. From watching the discussion, it's clear that Ludwigs2 has earned himself a sanction, but it's also clear that he's not the only one causing a problem. On the one hand, I am sympathetic to the viewpoint that the reason why Ludwigs2 is the only editor being banned is simply because he was only editor being reported. That's fine. I understand that. But on the other hand, by focusing on a single editor in a dispute when other editors are also causing a problem, it simply leads to gaming of the system. I don't fault anyone at AE for this happening. My point is that a more holistic approach is required. Maybe my point is beyond the scope of this appeal, but something is broken in the system itself. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:06, 15 October 2011 (UTC) Statement by SirFozzieJust a comment here, this caught my attention (I have AE on my watchlist). I personally do not consider the sanction to be out of line with expectations. In fact, I have concerns that this is seemingly a habit with Ludwigs2. Consider the events of the Arbitration Enforcement Sanction Handling ArbCom case. Ludwigs2 is a generally decent editor, as long as other editors remain relatively civil. However, they has a habit of "returning fire" so to speak. If they perceive someone as editing outside Wikipedia's norms and policies, then they feel justified in violating those norms to deal with it. Unfortunately, as the saying goes "an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind". It is important to stay within Wikipedia's norms and policies when everyone else is.. it is just as important to do so when other editors are violating them, it means that admins and others in the topic area can see the difference between those playing by the rules and those who are violating them.. makes everyone's life easier....SirFozzie (talk) 20:21, 15 October 2011 (UTC) Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Ludwigs2Result of the appeal by Ludwigs2
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