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September 19

English numerals pronunciation

101 is read as "One hundred and one" in British English and "One hundred one" in American English (at least according to English numerals). How is it pronounced in Canadian English? Is there any website or books that compares the differences between Canadian/American/British English? A8875 (talk) 00:33, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

To clarify I'm not looking for an authoritative style manual[1] that enumerates every little minutia. I'm looking for common and every-day speech differences. A8875 (talk) 00:38, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Well, even according to that page, British English does use "one-oh-one" when talking about things like bus numbers. My guess is that when they do differ, e.g. American "one-seventeen" instead of British "one-one-seven", Canadians would follow the American usage. However, I might myself (as an American) use "one-one-seven" for extra clarity. Lesgles (talk) 00:53, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

You can say one-seventeen in British English too. We're very broad-minded. Alansplodge (talk) 15:54, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

According to that "article", the year 1225 AD is referred to as the year one two two five. Utter bullshit. And the artcile is based on someone's blog and yahoo as its reference. Utter bullshit. μηδείς (talk) 01:02, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

With the Refimprove template on there since 2007, I'm not surprised. A8875 (talk) 01:15, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Yea, here in the US, I'd use each system, depending on the situation. StuRat (talk) 01:49, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

To clarify, I'm only asking about the "math" situation. As in, how would a Canadian answer "What's one plus one hundred?". According to that (poorly sourced) article, an American English speaker would answer "One hundred one" and a British English speaker would answer "One hundred and one". A8875 (talk) 02:00, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

It's just nonsense, in case you didn't know what I meant with the French term bullshit. I would say, "a hunrit 'n' one". μηδείς (talk) 02:20, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Medeis here. Depending on the context, I would say either "one-oh-one" or "a hunnert-n-one", unless I was being deliberately formal, and then I would say "A hundred and one". I speak a hybrid of General American English colored with my native dialect of New England English, with a couple of odd bits of Southern American English creeping in from time to time. --Jayron32 02:45, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. It's good to know I haven't been pronouncing numbers wrong my entire life. Now the question becomes an anthropological one: "Who are these people insisting that Americans pronoun it as 'one hundred one'"? It's not just a vandal on WP; there are gangs of these people on the internet[2] and they all collaborate each other's story. Apparently their style could better differentiate between the numbers "100 2/3" "102/3". My theory is that maybe this is something being perpetuated in the educational system in only certain parts of the country. A8875 (talk) 02:56, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

In the field of languages, linguists fall broadly into two camps, prescriptivists who maintain that there is a standard form of the language which must be preserved at all costs against lazy, inconsiderate, and uneducated speakers, and descriptivists who are more concerned with describing the language as it is. If people tell you that you and everyone you know has been saying something wrong all of your lives, they're prescriptivists. A descriptivist would say that no usage which is easily understood between speakers without any discomfort or unease is an incorrect usage, regardless of what is written in Strunk and White or any other "authoritative" source. --Jayron32 03:17, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

A few links to show how wide-spread it is: [3][4][5]. So far five Wikipedians came up on the "one hundred and one" side, and no one on the "one hundred one" side is chiming in curiously enough. For the internet as whole, and especially on US-oriented sites, it's apparently the other way around. A8875 (talk) 03:18, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Are you an American English speaker or a British English speaker? A8875 (talk) 02:25, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

[ec] Just from personal observation, I have heard far more Americans say "one hundred and one." In fact, I don't recall ever hearing "one hundred one."    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 02:28, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't ever recall hearing "one hundred one" to be honest, maybe I just have bad memory. But I saw this comment[6] on the internet and this particular numerical Nazi seems really adamant about it, and our own (poorly sourced) article says "not to use the word 'and' anywhere in the whole part of a number" so I was really confused. For a second there I thought I had been pronouncing numbers wrong my entire life.A8875 (talk) 02:35, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

If you're asking me, A8875, Midlands American. (If Jayron, see his user page.) I have a Delaware Valley accent with a code-switching New York City overlay. For example, I distinguish Mary/marry/merry/Murray, when in NYC, while the last two are merged as Murray in the Delaware Valley. I say /farhɛd/ and I front my o's to [ɛʊ] when in the south, but say /fɔrhɛd/ and never front when in NYC. New Yorkers laugh if I say I am gewing hewm to my parents' for Christmas, and wish them a Murray one. Interestingly, New Yorkers always pick up my Delaware Valley accent, and usually interpret it as my being a Southerner, (i.e., well below the Manson-Nixon line) while Delaware Valley residents never comment if I use New York vowels. μηδείς (talk) 03:03, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

I can confirm being taught (Midwest US, a long time ago) not to say "and" unless a fraction followed. "One hundred one", but "one hundred and two tenths." I still do it, and no one seems to be confused. Zoonoses (talk) 04:39, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the response. Can you please be more specific about when this was taught? Approximately which decade was this? Was it elementary school or middle school? Do you hear people around you using it? I'm trying to track down the approximate geographical and chronological spread of this phenomenon.A8875 (talk) 04:59, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

In elementary and high school in Canada (southern Ontario, 1980s and 1990s) I learned we should say "one hundred one". But I don't think I ever actually say numbers like that in any other context. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:03, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

I have a general American accent, and I say "a hundred and one" (except that maybe in counting off seconds of time I might say "a hundred one, a hundred two,..."). But I vaguely remember learning back in first or second grade in Buffalo, NY around 1960 that the "and" should be omitted.

This reminds me of a related issue. When people argue about whether to pronounce 2012 as "twenty twelve" or "two thousand (and) twelve", I have seen it said (maybe on Wikipedia?) that the former is superior because it is two syllables shorter than "two thousand and twelve", and the response was that it's only one syllable shorter than "two thousand twelve".

I also vaguely recall long ago hearing that 1912 should be pronounced "nineteen twelve" and not the rare "nineteen and twelve"--does anyone else recall that? Duoduoduo (talk) 14:27, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Anecdotal observations: When we got to the year 2000, it was pretty much universally "two thousand". Saying "twenty oh oh" would have been sort of weird. In 2001 people were starting to say "twenty oh one", but I think "two thousand one" was more prevelant. By 2010, the usage "twenty ten" was becoming the more common usage. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:04, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

I've never yet heard anyone call the movie 2001: A Space Odyssey "twenty-oh-one ...". Even your "two thousand one" sound weird to my ears, which much prefer "two thousand and one". -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 12:09, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Nor have I. When it was released ca.1968, whatever Arthur Clarke's actual intentions were, it was typically called "two thousand one" or "two thousand and one". In general usage, I didn't hear "twenty oh one" very often when the actual year hit. But once we got to 2010, "twenty ten" started seeming more natural than "two thousand [and] ten". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ —Preceding undated comment added 12:14, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

(U.S. data point) When I'm counting dalmatians (or anything else) I say "one [or 'a'] hundred and one". When I'm writing a number of dollars in words on a check, however, I write "one hundred one and 00/100". Deor (talk) 15:44, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

A hundred and one dalmations, running along highway one oh one. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:58, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

• (From the UK.) I'm slightly confused by this thread. I thought that omission of "and" after "hundred" in numbers was a well known and undisputed US-English trait, as compared to UK English where "and" is always inserted. I can clearly picture hearing Americans say it that way – or so I thought. Are people saying that this whole idea is faulty, or is 101 an exceptional case? 86.183.1.88 (talk) 02:09, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
  • It varies from place to place and from context to context. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:53, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
    • Yeah, to second Bugs on this one: The ommission of "and" is what is taught as "standard American English" that most people don't use in every day conversation. It's a sort of calcified rule of language that most native English speakers in America have dropped when talking casually. Some never use and, even informally, but I would guess they are in the minority: I've lived in three very different parts of the U.S., and everywhere I have lived the most common phrasing is "one hundred and whatever" or "a hundred and whatever". People who drop the "and" sound a bit formal and stuffy to my ears, kinda like Boston Brahmin or Received Pronounciation sounds. --Jayron32 11:42, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
      • There was a joke at one time about why the blonde couldn't make an emergency 911 call, because there was no "11" on the phone. That assumes the listener understands that people used to say "nine eleven". You seldom hear that anymore, for any number of possible reasons, including maybe the coincidental association with September 11 [2001], or "nine eleven [oh one]". It's now pretty much universally "nine one one". But folks still do that kind of shortening with phone numbers: "call me at home, my number is five five five twelve twelve." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:21, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Locke: "suspected of jargon in others"?

Not sure whether this belongs here or on the Humanities desk, but I'll ask it here. There is a sentence in John Locke's Essay Concerning Human Understanding (published in 1690) that is giving me a lot of trouble. For context, here is the passage it comes from:

19.That a man should be busy in thinking, and yet not retain it the next moment, very improbable.---To suppose the soul to think, and the man not to perceive it, is, as has been said, to make two persons in one man; and if one considers well these men's way of speaking, one should be led into a suspicion that they do so. For they who tell us that the soul always thinks, do never, that I remember, say, that a man always thinks. Can the soul think, and not the man? or a man think, and not be conscious of it? This perhaps would be suspected of jargon in others. If they say, "The man thinks always, but is not always conscious of it," they may as well say, his body is extended without having parts. ...

I understand all of this except the sentence, "This perhaps would be suspected of jargon in others", which I just can't make out. Clearly he is casting aspersions of some kind, but what exactly is he saying here? If anybody can help me parse that sentence, I would be grateful. Looie496 (talk) 03:51, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

By jargon he apparently means (presumably intentionally) unintelligible speech. I.e., if someone were to say such a thing he would be suspected of intentionally spouting nonsense. See http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=jargon The OED says:

3. Unintelligible or meaningless talk or writing; nonsense, gibberish.

6. Applied contemptuously to any mode of speech abounding in unfamiliar terms, or peculiar to a particular set of persons, as the language of scholars or philosophers, the terminology of a science or art, or the cant of a class, sect, trade, or profession.

μηδείς (talk) 04:12, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

From the context, I'd suspect the first of Medeis's definitions is closer - though in my preferred vernacular English, 'bullshit' would seem closer still. Not merely meaningless, but intentionally meaningless, and recognised as such even as it is said... AndyTheGrump (talk)

BTW, Locke is presumably trying to deal with Cartesian doubt here, but is equivocating, and wrong. Our subconscious often mulls things over (e.g., "sleep on it", ""tip of the tongue") and comes up with the answer unawares at a later time. If you don't want to call such wordless cogitation "thinking" you have to come up with another word for it. μηδείς (talk) 04:30, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

I probably should have clarified. Locke used the word "jargon" many times, and it's reasonably clear what it meant to him -- "bullshit" is a decent equivalent. What I can't figure out is the structure of that sentence -- most importantly, I can't figure out what "others" refers to. Looie496 (talk) 05:10, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

He's referring to the people whose opinions he's criticized in the two prior points:

17. If I think when I know it not, nobody else can know it. Those who so confidently tell us that the soul always actually thinks, I would they would also tell us, what those ideas are that are in the soul of a child, before or just at the union with the body, before it hath received any by sensation....

18. How knows any one that the Soul always thinks? For if it be not a self-evident Proposition, it needs Proof. I would be glad also to learn from these men who so confidently pronounce that the human soul, or, which is all one, that a man always thinks, how they come to know it; ...

See http://www.cliffsnotes.com/study_guide/literature/concerning-human-understanding/summary-analysis/book-ii/of-ideas-chapters-1-11/original-text-4.html μηδείς (talk) 05:31, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

I think, "Jargon" does not mean unintelligible speech in this case. It just refers to what some group of people (the "others") say, although it may well have negative connotations. The "others" and their "jargon" are the same people and speech referred to when he says "If they say the man..." in the next sentence or "They who talk thus" after that. The "this" in your sentence of concern refers to the act of supposition just mentioned: "To suppose the soul to think, and the man not to perceive it". So what he means by the sentence is simply that others' words imply or suggest that the soul can think while the man does not perceive it. So, really he's just repeating what he said earlier with, "And if one considers well these men's way of speaking, one should be led into a suspicion that they do so." --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 00:21, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it isn't any more incomprehensible than "colorless green ideas sleep furiously" is incomprehensible. But when you try to integrate it into your wider understanding of the real world it makes no real sense--which is somewhere between meanings 3 and 6 from Oxford.

That all makes sense, but I really don't understand why he would use the word "others" to refer to people he had already mentioned -- it seems like "them" would be the word in that case. Looie496 (talk) 02:34, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Conventions change over the centuries. If he's not specifically referring to those he's already mentioned, who themselves were never specified, then he's referring to the usual contemporary "they". μηδείς (talk) 04:54, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Luxembourgish translation needed

Hello, can anyone point me towards a speaker of Luxembourgish? I'd like to get a translation of lb:Bernard Molitor done. -- Hex [^t/_c] 16:32, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

You might ask on the page Talk:Luxembourgish language (even though that's technically not what that page is for). Or assuming there is a Luxembourgish Wikipedia, you could go there, find a help page, and ask there in English.Duoduoduo (talk) 16:45, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

The OP's link is to an article in Luxembourgish Wikipedia. I think that's prima facie evidence that there is a Luxembourgish Wikipedia.  :) -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 21:22, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

=) -- Hex [^t/_c] 10:59, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

A speaker of Luxembourgish might be preferable, but if you don't find one, drop me a line on my talkpage - the language is close enough to my native German, I can make out most of the article's contents and probably fill in everything I don't understand with a bit of googling -- Ferkelparade π 16:50, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

You can also look at Wikipedia:Translators available and Wikipedia:Translation for additional suggestions and/or help.--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 17:02, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

I understand all of it without being a speaker of the language. There are also printed references in English available. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 18:15, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestions, all. (I wasn't aware of the translators list, that's bookmarked now.) I'm going to take up Ferkelparade on his offer. Pp.paul - yeah, plenty of refs; I figured it'd be quicker to translate an existing article and then add refs rather than write one from scratch. -- Hex [^t/_c] 10:59, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

I left a message at Zinneke's discussion page. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 16:48, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Tommy Wiseau - where's he from?

Would any of the cunning linguists here be able to hazard an educated guess as to where noted cinematic eccentric Tommy Wiseau originates from, based upon his accent (there are loads of vids of him on YouTube for those who've never had the pleasure)? He's notoriously cagey about this subject, I'd assume because people have been speculating about it for years now and coming up with some hugely fanciful stories about his past - and thus talking about him, generating 'buzz' for him or whatever. I recall people saying on forums that his accent is definitely *not* a French, or New Orleans accent. It was also stated by someone else (no idea if they were talking sense or not) that 'Wiseau', while sounding somewhat French to a non Frenchman, is not actually a 'real' French name. Personally, I thought that he was Swedish when I first heard his voice. Others have said that he definitely sounds like he's from somewhere that used to be called Yugoslavia. Not sure. --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 22:26, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Wow. I have looked at Google, IMDb NNDb and our article, as well as some of its refs, aND I'm not sure there's anything I could say that wouldn't violate WP:BLP. μηδείς (talk) 22:34, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Cunning linguists. That's a good one. 86.183.1.88 (talk) 01:59, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

It must be a couple of decades ago when I first heard Bill Maher invoke that one. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:48, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Me too. Not Maher, but that general vintage. Nothing new under the sun, eh. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 08:54, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

You two are a bunch of master debaters... --Jayron32 11:38, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Your point being ... ?  :) -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 12:03, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

His accent reminds me a bit of Arnold Schwarzenegger in his early movies. Arnold is Austrian; his accent is a sort of modified German accent. Looie496 (talk) 02:21, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

"Wieso" (pronounced somewhat similar to the name) is a German interrogative word meaning "how come" or "why". Of course, this may be a pure coincidence. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 10:05, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

September 20

Est-ce que c'est vraiment dur d'être aimé par les cons? (The C-Word)

Looking for a fair use image for the article Charlie Hebdo I came across this: http://arunwithaview.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/charlie-hebdo-mahomet.jpg The English translation strikes me as so obscence I wouldn't use it. It's the only word of the seven dirty words you won't hear me use under any circumstances. Our article on it says it is the most shocking and unusable of English words. Is con not so bad in French? How could one judge, or tell what might be worse? μηδείς (talk) 02:13, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

I guess not. It is the name of a restaurant in Montreal. Bielle (talk) 02:22, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

And Andreanne Mallett has a cute song about Les Cons. I am going to check my primordial French dictionary as I am not seeing examples of any rude translation yet. Bielle (talk) 02:29, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Oh, cheese and crackers. (Avec du smegma?) μηδείς (talk) 02:30, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

According to my MicroRobert, "con" and "conne" are just "vulg" for "imbécile and "idiot". "Fools", in other words. While I don't call people "idiots" very often, whatever the provocation, I wouldn't call it one of the seven unspeakables. Where is the source of your translation? Bielle (talk) 02:35, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

I guess another very related question is, is the French con a borrowing from Germanic or a reflex of the Latin cunnus and cognate with the Spanish coño? μηδείς (talk) 02:36, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

My "source" is personal experience and etymology online and google translate. The Spanish coño has the same meanings as the British sense of the word, but is used a heck of a lot more than the English word in America. I know the word is not so bad in British English as it is in American, and is used there simply to mean idiot, while if said in America I would expect it to come to blows. I have to assume at this point the image I linked to for Charlie Hebdo is using it as idiot as well, although I first took it to mean what it would mean in America. μηδείς (talk) 02:43, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

The c-word is highly obscene in British English. People who speak in a stream of foul language might use it to mean no more than "idiot" I suppose, but dropping it into polite conversation would be something like detonating a small nuclear weapon. 86.183.1.88 (talk) 02:59, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

I'll certainly take your word for it that it's nuclear, since it is in the US, but I believe I have heard it used in British TV (i.e, "silly/stupid c*nt") where it would never be used in American TV at all, and almost never in movies. μηδείς (talk) 03:04, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Malcolm Tucker of The Thick of It certainly drops the c-bomb now and then, and he's not unique in British TV. There was even an episode of Balderdash and Piffle, the BBC dictionary/etymology documentary series, with a section about the word 'cunt', which aired before (or perhaps just after) the 9pm watershed. And a couple of years ago BBC Radio accidentally referred to Jeremy Hunt, the Culture Secretary, as 'Jeremy C!nt, the Hulture Secretary', and then did so again while apologising. All during regular daytime broadcasting - and while the apology was certainly necessary, no-one was fined or fired about it. We're a lot less touchy about this stuff than US broadcasters. As for 'con', I'd say 'twat' was a fair translation in terms of strength, connotation, and so on. 'Schmuck' seems too mild, c$nt too strong. AlexTiefling (talk) 09:03, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Well, except Dinner for Schmucks was a remake of the French film Le Dîner de Cons. --Jayron32 11:37, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

I know that. I meant that, at the time, it struck me as a wildly imprecise translation. AlexTiefling (talk) 12:16, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Way down this page of possible meanings, most of which are terms like "bloody idiots" or "stupid jerks" is a possible use as "twat". I somehow doubt that is the best translation for the example you gave in the beginning, but perhaps a native French speaker would care to comment. Bielle (talk) 03:36, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

"Twat" is a commonly used if slangish Australian synonym for that part of the female anatomy. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 04:47, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

• "Con" means "ass" or "arse" in French, and has the same level of profanity, which is to say not much at all. If you call someone "un con", you're calling them an ass: not a polite thing to say, but not all that obscene. The french word that probably contains the same level of obscenity when directed at women as the English "c-word" is "putain", which roughly translates as "whore". The naughty French slang word for female genetalia is "la chatte". I'm not a native French speaker, but I have native French speakers in my immediate family, enough to pick up on things like this. --Jayron32 05:22, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Agree. But have people not seen the brilliant Le Dîner de Cons (film)? Apparently there's an English language version Dinner for Schmucks, but it can't possibly match real French farce de nos jours. Fr.wiki has an article on Con, the essence is that the word has now settled down to mean simply "idiot", ruder than idiot but not unacceptable. Itsmejudith (talk) 06:44, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm French native speaker and "con" only means "stupid" in French, nothing to see with the English word. You won't use it to talk about your boss when he's there, but in his back I don't think your colleagues would be too angry. Amqui (talk) 06:36, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

What about Louis Aragon's Le Con d'Irène? That seems to have the same anatomical connotation as the English word. AlexTiefling (talk) 09:33, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

It can have that sense, but it simply isn't as vulgar as the English word. When used to describe the female anatomy, it probably doesn't carry any more weight than "hoo-haa" or "cooter" or other such words: informal, maybe a tad rude in some contexts, but not outright vulgar or obscene. It just doesn't have a vulgar sense in French. --Jayron32 11:34, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree; even almost 27 years ago, when I went to school with french pupils, we used it all the time..."qu'il est con, ce mec"...etc., and it had no real vulgar meaning just then. Lectonar (talk) 12:10, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

And the word is frequently used on French television without any censorship or bleeping. --Xuxl (talk) 13:03, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Calling someone a con in French seems to me to be about as strong as calling them a dick in Emglish. I wonder how strong French words for the male genitalia as insults are? --Nicknack009 (talk) 13:32, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Couillon is slightly stronger than con, but not by much. --Xuxl (talk) 14:21, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Is anything actually censored on French TV? This week there have been commercials in the middle of the day for Basic Instinct on France 3, including the shot of Sharon Stone's, er, chatte. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:12, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

And even here we have this ;). Lectonar (talk) 14:40, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

...and the French equivalent of that Meta article is entitled Ne jouez pas au con. AlexTiefling (talk) 14:41, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

:) Live and learn. Lectonar (talk) 14:43, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

The Pondian difference I've noticed about cunt as a person-directed insult is that in British English it's usually applied to men, and in American English it's usually applied to women. Angr (talk) 17:49, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

In French the word con has at least two meanings, see the CNRTL. Meaning A: the external female genitalia. It is a very vulgar to use it (obscene word). Meaning B: a fool, a stupid (male) person. No sexual connotation for this meaning. It is used in an "uneducated speech". It is almost a colloquial word. There is a famous quote from a former French President: Casse-toi, pauvre con !. — AldoSyrt (talk) 20:49, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

That seems very French. After all, baiser has two meanings, one innocent and one very vulgar. --Jayron32 21:30, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

I have never heard the word "con" used to talk about the female genitalia and I live in French. Amqui (talk) 01:05, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Me neither...and I am quite sure it would at least be used in school if it was really common...Lectonar (talk) 07:32, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

The "usual" word nowdays is chatte, but con is fully understood by a majority of French. If you live in France you can have a look at Sur l'album de la Comtesse, every week in the Le_Canard_enchaîné, which is dedicated to cryptic spoonerisms, where con is often used (in an hidden way, indeed). AldoSyrt (talk) 08:44, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

In terms of how forbidden the word is: The Police Rehumanize Yourself lyrics: "Billy's joined the National Front He always was ( just) a little runt. He's got his hand in the air with the other cunts. You've got to rehumanize yourself." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.107.53.153 (talk) 17:11, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Croatian language

Dear Sirs, Why at you web page site (screen) does n't have the name "croatian" language (like slovenščina, makedonski, srpski)? Thank you very much! Zvonimir Pandžić 23000 Zadar, Croatia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.92.201.90 (talk) 07:47, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

The Croatian version of WP is available with the prefix "hr.", eg this article. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 07:54, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

I may have misunderstood your question. If the Croatian WP has no equivalent to the reference desk then there will not be a link in the "languages" list on the left margin of the page. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 08:05, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

The English-language Wikipedia (en.wikipedia.org) and the Croatian-language Wikipedia (hr.wikipedia.org) are run separately and independently, having no control over each other. Many other Wikipedias are available, see right here for a full list; all of them are being written and maintained by volunteers from all over the world. If you notice that a topic is already covered in some languages, but not yet in Croatian, you are welcome to write an article for the Croatian Wikipedia on that topic, so long as you wish to do so. Check out Pomoć: Sadržaj, a portal with some useful links, if you're interested in editing the Croatian-language Wikipedia. --Theurgist (talk) 12:37, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

At www.wikipedia.org, which is not en.wikipedia.org you indeed don't find the word 'croatian', but 'hrvatski', which is probably fine, for people who speak croatian. OsmanRF34 (talk) 16:36, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

We have millions of pages and you didn't say which one you refer to. Rather than guessing let me ask: Which page is it? PrimeHunter (talk) 02:03, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Center of Attraction

Is there a "single word" that would have the same meaning as "center of attraction"?
Examples

• When she enters the room, she is the "center of attraction" because of her beauty.
  
• When you go to a quaint old town, often times the "center of attraction" is the town's clock. --Christie the puppy lover (talk) 18:17, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
  • The phrase I usually hear in that case is "center of attention". If you want a single word, "centerpiece" fits. --Jayron32 18:47, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

There is a word but it's rather uncommon: cynosure. Also, while I think it can be used in the first of the sentences you mentioned in your posting in place of centre of attraction, I'm not sure it would be appropriate to use it in the second sentence. You could simply use the word focus as well. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 18:49, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Magnet might work in certain contexts. Lesgles (talk) 19:20, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Or Mecca. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 22:22, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Focus. μηδείς (talk) 22:27, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Is that a command directed at me? I only ask because "focus" as a response to the question has already been suggested. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 00:07, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Got distracted when I clicked on the link for cynosure, since I always though that meant dog's tail. But it is always good advice. μηδείς (talk) 01:30, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Ha, ha! — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 13:38, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks again boys.--Christie the puppy lover (talk) 14:13, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Arabic help

Hi! What is the Arabic in the image http://www.ummto.dz/IMG/siteon0.gif ? (the image changes between Arabic, French, and Tifinagh) - Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 18:42, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

جامعة مولود معمري - تيزي وزو Lesgles (talk) 19:27, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Thank you so much! WhisperToMe (talk) 20:53, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

"Mouloud Mammeri University - Tizi Ouzou" ? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:11, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Mouloud Mammeri University - Tizi Ouzou. --Theurgist (talk) 00:19, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

is straits plural or singular

Straits. Is the word singular or plural? Does it matter if you are talking about a particular name. as in "Straits of _______" or "_______ Straits"? Is it done differently in different varieties of English? (In short, straits is or straits are? Straits is, or Straits are?) Thanks Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:24, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

I think this is one of those oddball words (like pants) which is conceptually singular but grammatically plural. Just as you'd say "My pants are too short", you'd say "The straits of Gibraltar are between Spain and Morrocco". (And yes, before anyone objects, I understand that pants have two legs. But its still one object, and if you held one up, people would identify it as one, and not two, things.) --Jayron32 21:28, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

WP:WHAAOE: The proper term for "oddball words" like glasses, scissors, and so on is "pluralia tantum". Gabbe (talk) 06:30, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

But Wikipedia redirects a request for Straits of Gibraltar to Strait of Gibraltar. Duoduoduo (talk) 23:46, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Which reinforces that the "straits" form is an acceptable usage. --Jayron32 06:31, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

What intrigues me is why it's sometimes "strait" and sometimes "straits". It's always just the one body of water. In any given case there's no way of predicting what it's going to be if you didn't already know what the chosen term is. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 22:19, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Oddly enough, people who are in trouble are always in dire straits, always plural. I suppose if one really bad thing happened to you that day, it would be a dire strait? --Jayron32 22:22, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Some etymology might be useful:[7] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:09, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Ah yes. That is a useful thing to consider. Perhaps, the issue arises, in the context I was thinking about because the namers of straits need not be persnickety about whether the are naming one or more things, (See also, Straits of Magellan or Bering Straits). So, the word straits is plural but may be used in reference to a single thing. But if anyone has more usage or grammar thoughts, those would be welcome, of course, particularly the history of how this came to be. Alanscottwalker (talk) 10:45, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Interestingly, both of your examples are better known by their "Strait" (sing.) versions, which is how both articles are titled. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 00:56, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes. I'm wondering if there is an archaic usage thing going on from the pre-twentieth century, when these things were not typically viewed from above. The Megellan for example has several navigable passages, at least in part. Other straits are different, but at water level, perhaps, most straits appear so. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:08, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

The OED (2012 online) has a special note about this in the entry about strait in the waterway sense: When used as a geographical proper name, the word is usually pl. with sing. sense, e.g. the Straits of Dover , the Straits of Gilbraltar (formerly †the Straits of Morocco ), the Straits of Magellan , the Straits of Malacca , and the Straits as short for any of these; with regard to Bass('s) Strait(s) , Torres Strait(s) , usage is divided, while Davis Strait rarely appears in the plural form. The use of the pl. for the sing. began in the 15th c. A few writers, chiefly of gazetteers, use the sing. consistently throughout.

Wikipedia seems to mostly "use the sing. consistently", with some exceptions like Straits of Florida, Straits of Tiran, Straits of Johor, Kanmon Straits, and of course Straits of Mackinac. General list at List of straits. Pfly (talk) 15:18, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I guess that make us 'gazetteers', and "singular sense" means, 'Straits is', I take it? Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:23, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

with regard to Bass('s) Strait(s) , Torres Strait(s) , usage is divided -- Huh? I have never in my life, ever, heard or seen Bass Strait or Torres Strait called or written any other way but Strait. And our articles make no mention of Straits. If the OED recorded Straits, presumably they didn't just make it up. But I fear they are way out of date with this, and that the plural versions are definitely archaic and obsolete. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 00:54, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

"The moon is out to trust"

Esther & Abi Ofarim sang: "In the morning when the moon is out to trust": But I don't understand what "the moon is out to trust" means. Can you help me? Irene1949 (talk) 21:40, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Maybe it sounded nice when they sang it? Sometimes, lyrics are chosen for how they sound and not for what they mean. Lots of songs use phrases and words that seem nonsensical, but sound nice when said in particular songs. The fancy term for this is "Prosody", and song writers may make word or phrase choices based more on "prosody" than on actual meaning. Sometimes they even invent words just to fit the song (like looptid and pompatus). Sometimes, if asked, the song writers can come up with some justification for what it meant, but in this case there is not any onbvious english idiom that makes any sense with that lyric, at least that I have ever heard. --Jayron32 21:45, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

If you Google the song "In the Morning", the results for Barry Gibb's original lyrics consistently come up as "In the morning when the moon is at its rest". That would make much more sense, and rhymes with the following line: "You will find me at the time I love the best". I would suggest that Esther and Abi are probably singing just that, and the lyrics transcribed online are a mishearing that has been copied from site to site over time. - Karenjc 22:10, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

And then there's that. See mondegreen for the technical term of what Karenjc is talking about. --Jayron32 22:18, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

There used to be a slot on a BBC Radio 1 programme, in which listeners could send in their mis-heard lyrics. My favourites were "Bald headed woman" and "Beneath the knees". Alansplodge (talk) 21:08, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

The girl with colitis goes by. Classic Lennon-McCartney off-day. - Karenjc 20:52, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Seems Barry Gibb has the same mother as I do. Welcome to the family, Bazza. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 21:15, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

It could mean "is out of view and thus we must trust that it's still there". Of course, the Moon is not always out of view during the day, but, on overcast days, at least, it is. StuRat (talk) 20:48, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your answers.

Mishearing is a phenomenon that I experienced too. When ABBA sang: "send me a letter" I understood: "send me a ladder". I was amused because it reminded me of a German fairy tale, "Rapunzel", in which a girl is imprisoned in a tower, so that she might be happy to receive a ladder.

StuRat (talk) wrote:“It could mean "is out of view and thus we must trust that it's still there"”. That does not convince me, because the position of the moon can be predicted with more precision and more reliability than many other phenomena. Of cause the moon can be hidden by clöuds. But that is usually not the moon's fault. Usually clouds are the result of forces whose origin is on earth. Irene1949 (talk) 22:36, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

About "letter"/"ladder", I also heard the latter. As for "we must trust that it's still there", I'm talking about at an intuitive level, not scientific evidence for it's continued existence. StuRat (talk) 22:43, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

September 21

Spanish "diskos" bread

Hello all. My Spanish friends have tasked me with finding some sort of disc like bread at the local Spanish convenience store. They refer to them as "diskos" (I have no idea how this is spelled), and this is all I really know about them. I tried googling a few things with no luck. Can anyone shed some light on this? 129.3.150.123 (talk) 02:53, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Where in Spain? There's a Catalonian flat bread called "coca", see [8] for some more info. Is that it? --Jayron32 02:59, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

The OP geolocates to Oswego, New York, so "local Spanish convenience store" presumably translates to Mexican convenience store. Or so it would seem. At any rate, this needs clarification. Looie496 (talk) 04:59, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Some common Latin American flatbreads are the Mexican tortilla (though I would find it hard to believe that something as ubiquitous in the U.S. would be unknown to any American.), the Central American Pupusa, or the sweet Sopaipilla. I'm out of ideas after that. There is a Puerto Rican bread called "pan de agua" which isn't really a flat bread; its a leavened bread. There's a Mexican version of the gyro called "tacos al pastor" that is served on pita bread, or a Mexican varient of pita bread. Otherwise I'm spent for ideas on Hispanic flat breads. --Jayron32 05:56, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

In Spanish the /k/ sound is spelt with a C (before A, O, U or a consonant) or QU (before E or I). So the spelling would be "discos". Subliminable (talk) 07:43, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

I would hazard an unscientific guess that this is a very colloquial use of the word "discos" or they are joking with you. Richard Avery (talk) 07:49, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Everything and nothing

What is the word for the phenomenon or viewpoint in which everything has a characteristic so nothing can be described as having the characteristic? For example, the editorial here which asks, "And in a world where almost everyone is, by some degree, a nerd, is anyone, anymore?" Or the conlanging blog entry here which states: "This specific hole exists because I think that art has been defined so broadly that everything and nothing is art by now". Subliminable (talk) 07:39, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't know of a word for it, but it's a consequence of defining things in relative terms rather than absolute. For example, to win, somebody else has to lose. So, in kids' sports where everyone gets a trophy and is called a "winner", it really loses it's meaning (although here I suppose the "losers" could be those who don't play at all.) StuRat (talk) 20:44, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

It is a consequence of the Genus–differentia definition of concepts. As StuRat mentions, if a concept is not differentiated from other things it has no real meaning because it has no boundary. You might also look at the tangentially relevant metaphysical corrolary of Leibniz's identity of indiscernibles and here http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/identity-indiscernible/ μηδείς (talk) 20:50, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

It seems akin to moral relativism. Examples abound. One that comes to mind is Paul Newman's character in The Sting, speaking of Chicago in the time the film is set: "No point in being a grifter if it's the same thing as being a citizen." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:35, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Mali online newspaper (in French) - is it an RS?

OP refered to RSN
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Hi. Is this paper from Mali a reliable source? --Dweller (talk) 08:55, 21 September 2012 (UTC) Did you mean to ask the question here? It should go on WP:RSN, I think. And you could ask: reliable for what? At first sight, it looks like a mainstream news outlet, but if it's to be used to back a controversial statement, more careful consideration might be required. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:03, 21 September 2012 (UTC) I meant to post here, as I'm not sure about the French expertise there, but I'll definitely post a message there, too. To my mind, an RS is an RS, but in these circumstances, I'm looking at whether it's a source for establishing notability of the subject of the article. --Dweller (talk) 10:22, 21 September 2012 (UTC) Then you're in the wrong place. That's not what the reference desk is for. There are people at RSN who do read French, and will be able to help you. Good luck! Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 10:43, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Troshing the Clossics in the Clossroom

At just after two minutes into this clip, the interviewer of Mark Steyn suggests people may be "troshing the clossics" and later on suggests this is happening in "closs". (With the vowel of father, not boss.) Specifically what sort of accent is this (I get the guy's Canadian) or is it due to some sort of influence, like Steyn's public school accent? μηδείς (talk) 19:55, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Apparently, he was born in Toronto, but went to school in Birmingham, and then worked in London. He currently lives in New Hampshire. (All of that from Mark Steyn). He "says "idear", something I've never heard from a Canadian who grew up here. I suspect his accent has been influenced by all the places he has lived and worked. Bielle (talk) 20:20, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

I've just listened to the clip - it's the interviewer whose accent is in question by the OP rather than Mark Steyr. Alansplodge (talk) 20:28, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Hehe (!), I was reading Bielle's kind response, and thought, gosh, this guy's history sounds just like Mark Steyn's, no wonder he talks so funny. Lol. μηδείς (talk) 20:32, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't think he's using the vowel of father at all. It's just that his /æ/, his TRAP vowel to use John C. Wells's terminology, is slightly lower and further back than what Americans (especially those who tend toward æ-tensing) are accustomed to hearing. This retraction of /æ/ toward the cardinal vowel [a] is part of the Canadian Shift. Angr (talk) 20:51, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

The interviewer is Charles Adler (broadcaster). His article says that he is Canadian with Hungarian ancestry, but his accent sounds purely Canadian to me -- a mix of standard broadcast American and a bit of hoser. Looie496 (talk) 20:52, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

I have the tense/lax /æ/ split, not /æ/ tensing. His TRAP vowels sound just to the back side of /a/ to me. But I am not sure he backs all his TRAP vowels. I'll have to listen again. I find his accent not so annoying as the northern cities vowel shift but much harder to understand--it all sounds very mumbled, all schwas and ahs. This still doesn't sound like anything I am used to hearing that I can associate with anything specific from Canada--certainly not Kids in the Hall. Can anyone (1) give a narrow location for this accent (a city) and (2) suggest another clip with another speaker where I can hear it? Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 21:07, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Being a Canadian, the only "questionable" accent I heard was Steyn's, so I grandly dismissed the actual question and answered the one I thought should have been asked -all quite subconsciously, of course. I am still not hearing anything odd, but here is a link to some podcasts that might help you further. Sorry about the earlier distraction. Bielle (talk)

Turns out he is almost as peripatetic as Steyn, but within a single country. This, from here :

A 32-year radio and television broadcast veteran, Adler started his career when he was only 18 years old, in Montreal. He attended McGill University during the day and produced rockn’roll radio shows in the evening at CKGM. Behind the scenes was not his scene and so he moved on to Calgary in the winter of 1974 and became a rock jock for the venerable CKXL. For the next fifteen years he toured Canada, working in Vancouver, Montreal, Hamilton, Toronto, London, and Winnipeg. Adler worked for several broadcast legends, including CJAD in Montreal, CHUM and CFRB in Toronto. A six year stint as News Director at CKY in Winnipeg gave Adler the motivation to crank it up a notch and get involved in talk radio. It was Calgary that gave Adler his start in talk radio where he hosted HOT TALK on CISS - AM. Adler has a unique brand of straight talk filled with humorous rants and honest observation. In 1992 Adler took his microphone to Tampa, Florida and turned Hot Talk into a nationally syndicated show hitting more than 120 markets in the USA. In 1994, he moved up to Boston, and began hosting Adler on Line, a primetime television show for which he won a Best TV Host for New England Emmy. Following a return to Canada with CFRB in Toronto in 1996, Adler joined CJOB Winnipeg, where his show has one of the highest audience share in North America. Winnipeg is where Adler has spent more than a third of his adult life and he now considers it his adopted hometown. In January 2005, the CORUS RADIO NETWORK began to air Adler on Line the National Edition. In addition to his radio broadcasts, Charles writes newspaper columns for Sun Media.

Bielle (talk) 21:35, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Sounds like he is trying for a neutral "general Canadian" accent, the type a national newsreader might have (like Peter Mansbridge or Lloyd Robertson or Sandie Rinaldo). He also sounds like he's trying to be a bit hoity-toity. Keep in mind that Sun News is the Canadian equivalent of Fox News, or at least it wishes it was, and everyone involved with it is a giant asshole. Er, citation needed etc. Adam Bishop (talk) 22:52, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

^^^^ What he said! Bielle (talk) 23:31, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

But this doesn't really help. Those backed /æ/ vowels are certainly not broadcast standard or something you would expect someone to affect intentionally, least because he's on Fox News. Perhaps this is typical of Montreal? What I'd really like is an example of another Canadian doing this. Is there a clip of Mansbridge or Rinaldo doing this, for example? μηδείς (talk) 02:57, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Well, as Angr says above, it's a normal /æ/ vowel, at least for Canada. Here is an example of Lloyd Robertson using numerous words with that vowel even in just the first 30 seconds - and as an extra bonus, you get to hear Conrad Black doing the same thing. I'd still say it's a bit affected; maybe typical of an older generation, or a mark of education, or a pattern of speech affected by people who are used to speaking in public/on TV (all of which would fit Adler, Robertson, and Black). An old-fashioned attempt to sound a bit more British, basically. It doesn't sound strange to me at all though. I have the same vowel, although maybe slightly more forward (being younger and not a television personality). Ah, but the Kids in the Hall, as you mention, don't sound like that, and they are also on TV...but that's why I suspect it might be a generational thing. But none of KITH has an /æ/ as forward as you are used to in the US, do they? Unless they are specifically trying to imitate an American accent... Adam Bishop (talk) 09:50, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

That link to the Black interview was very helpful. The female interviewer had the most backed ashes, which is consistent with Canadian shift. There is either some free variation or phonemic conditioning, since the quality varies from a lax ash all the way to a full ah. Adler does indeed say /klasrum/ about halfway through his interview with Steyn. μηδείς (talk) 16:43, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Oh yeah. That's Lisa LaFlamme, who has the same "newscaster accent" but she's a bit younger so maybe it's not as strong! Adam Bishop (talk) 18:19, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Actually, she seemed to have the most backed ash of all the instances in that interview at one point. Given how it varies, I suspect there's some sort of conditionin. Adler's ashes it seemed were most backed before voiceless sibilants. μηδείς (talk) 19:08, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Help with Korean Lyrics

Can someone take a listen to this Psy Gangnam Style video and tell me if there are references to "Love Boat" in it? Thanks Bielle (talk) 23:30, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

September 22

Quick translation from Norwegian

On this page, we're told that the poet Hallfreðr vandræðaskáld død ved 1007. Google Translate thinks this means "death by 1007", which I think we can assume should be more like "died by 1007", but also lists "dead on" and "dead at" as alternative translations for død ved. There are slightly different meanings here – the ambiguity being whether he died in 1007, or is known to have been dead at that point – which I'd like to clarify for use in the article 10th century in poetry. Can anyone offer clarity on which of the meanings is correct? Thanks in advance! – Arms & Hearts (talk) 01:54, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

This page has a very long account of his life and work, in Danish. The relevant part is rendered by Google Translate as follows:

Then had Hallfreðr rest no longer, he was still on holidays (summer 1005 he sailed to Iceland and Gunnlaugr with him), his joy was over. His last trip to Iceland he did to hænte all his, as he intended to stay with his eldest son in Sweden. They had a hard storm, and Hallfreðr was sick. Once he sat down tired of spoon, then beat a wave of the ship, it tore him, and sail pole fell on him. Shortly after he died, his body was in a coffin thrown overboard. The coffin washed ashore on Jona and was found by the abbot journeymen. They broke it up and plundered it. But their misdeeds were discovered, as in the saga called, in that King Olaf appeared in dreams to the abbot - this poetic narrative features denotes the heartfelt relationship that had existed between the king and Hallfreðr -. The body was later buried, and the treasures that were in the coffin, used for lime, altar cloth and candlesticks. Once this is done, can not be determined a priori, but it is most reasonable that it occurred omtr. The 1007th

In spite of the broken English, that seems clear enough for your needs. Looie496 (talk) 02:35, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

I'd render it as "died in 1007". Here's my (human) translation of the same Danish text above, with a few notes on things that are a little unclear:

Hereafter, Hallfreðr had no rest; he was constantly travelling (the summer of 1005, he sailed to Iceland along with Gunnlaugr [another poet]); his zest for life had gone. He took his last trip to Iceland in order to collect his things, as he intended to stay with his oldest son in Sweden. They ran into a severe storm, and Hallfreðr was sick. As he sat down, tired from scooping [water out of the ship, given the storm], a wave struck the ship, knocking him down and causing the mast to fall on him. He died shortly thereafter; his body was thrown overboard in a coffin. The coffin washed up at Jona, and was found by the abbot's explorer [I think "svende" is an old word; Google offers up "squire" and "journeyman" as well]. They broke it up and plundered it—but their misdeeds were discovered, as it is told in the story, when king Olaf appeared in the abbot's dreams. This poetic narrative denotes the intimate relationship that had existed between the king and Hallfreðr. The body was then buried; the valuables in the coffin were used for lime, an altar cloth, and candle sticks. When exactly this happened is difficult to say, but it is most sensible [or reasonable, etc] to say that it occurred sometime around 1007.

 dalahäst ^{(let's talk!)} 03:35, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

I suppose "Jona" actually means Iona, for what it's worth. It seems a little unlikely that his coffin would have washed up there, but not impossible. Looie496 (talk) 17:18, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

'Svend' is unambiguous. "Svende" is plural. See the etymology in Sven, i.e. squire, in its original meaning, as parodied by Sancho Panza's relationship to Don Quijote. Assistants of a king or nobleman of high rank, carrying their weapons, traveling with them (hence journeyman edit: see my post below), and assisting in battle. "Sven", "Svend" and "Svein" are common Scandinavian given names. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 19:00, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Huh, I never knew that—"squire" isn't exactly a common word nowadays, so I suppose that's why I'd not seen it before in any language but English. Are most people named "Sven" (or Svend or Svein) familiar with the origin of their name? I dunno how it is in European countries, but here in the US, most people seem to be unfamiliar with the origins and meanings of names.  dalahäst ^{(let's talk!)} 20:40, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

If they have paid attention in their history classes, I suppose they will know the origin of the name, at least if they're my age (in their fifties). Whether the term is used when teaching history today, I don't know. I tried it out with a sample of one (age 23, not named "Sven"). She didn't know. Regarding the etymology: our article states that the original meaning is 'young boy' or 'young warrior'. The term "Svenn" (current Norwegian spelling) or "Svend" (current danish spelling) has another meaning in Norwegian and Danish (don't know about Swedish, there's no interwiki link). A "svenn" is someone who has completed an apprenticeship and is fully educated in a trade or craft, but not yet a master. The test you must pass is called is called "svenneprøve", which is a term that just about every Norwegian above the age of 18 will be familiar with. The same system appears to be is use in Germany, see de:Gesellenprüfung. Following the wikilinks then led me to the page journeyman, which explains some of the confusion: A journeyman is someone who has completed an apprenticeship and is fully educated in a trade or craft, but not yet a master. ... The terms jack and knave are sometimes used as informal words for journeyman. Hence the expression "jack of all trades, master of none". --NorwegianBlue ^talk 08:05, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

The related English word swain from Old Norse sveinn has become archaic, but means (mostly) a young man courting his would-be sweetheart. This use is somewhat self-consciously old-fashioned, but not so rare or archaic as the other meaning of "a rustic peasant/yokel".

Thanks everyone! – Arms & Hearts (talk) 22:26, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Without knowing what notation is used in that database, even in Norwegian saying that someone died ved 1007 sounds odd. I suppose that one could have said før (before), omkring (around)/cirka (circa) or i løpet av (during - for which the preposition could be dropped altogether, leaving us with død 1007), but these might not meet the specifics of what is required here: If we want to say he died in or before 1007, we can't use før alone, and if we say he died around 1007 that also gives us some leeway beyond 1007. If the website were to state that he died during 1007, that might seem a bit to specific, given that it's not always possible to date events that far in the past accurately (i.e. he could also have died towards the end of 1006). V85 (talk) 16:38, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Problem with Wikipedia fonts

In the article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astarte (just one example), I get boxes instead of characters, which I assume mean that I need a font to render something in an unusual language. Words in Ugaritic, Akkadian, and Etruscan show up as a series of boxes.

Can you help me get these characters to show properly? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.16.99.183 (talk) 07:59, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

You need to have installed some font that includes the relevant range of Unicode. (I can't see them either.) —Tamfang (talk) 08:09, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Some tips and links are available at Help:Multilingual support (though of the three scripts you've specifically mentioned, only in the case of Akkadian does the page link to a downloadable font). Deor (talk) 13:11, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

If you go to article Ishtar you can see the Akkadian name in small images. If you go to Image:Ugaritic-alphabet-chart.svg and scan the ʕ-θ-t-r-t characters in sequence, then you can get an idea of what the Ugaritic would look like. The Etruscan alphabet is kind of quasi-intermediate between the Greek and Roman alphabets, and so is much less exotic than Akkadian or Ugaritic... AnonMoos (talk) 15:20, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

The characters are displaying correctly for me. For Akkadian, you can install this font, for Etruscan and Ugaritic, this font seems to work. - Lindert (talk) 15:44, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestions. I tried loading those two fonts, without success. This isn't a major issue, but it would be nice if there were a simple fix for this issue for Wikipedia users. Something like: "Want to show all those weird fonts? Click here to get them all installed." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Seidensticker (talk • contribs) 22:31, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Some applications and operating systems simply can't handle things beyond the Basic Multilingual Plane... AnonMoos (talk) 06:33, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Arabic help with two images

Hi! What is the Arabic in the image File:Tizi Ouzou Tasdawit.jpg and in the image File:Kabylia-3lingual sign.jpg? I want to post what the signs say in those languages on the Wikimedia commons.

I would also like to know what the Arabic translations are for "Signs in the University of Tizi Ouzou " and "A multilingual traffic sign in Kabylie (Algeria), depicting Arabic, Tamazight and French."

Thank you WhisperToMe (talk) 16:21, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

I can't help with translating into Arabic, but for the first image, the "Faculty of Letters and Humanities" one is: "كلية الاداب و العلوم الإنسانية "; "Auditorium" is " قاعة المحاضرات"; the economics one is "كلية العلوم الإقتصادية" ; "rectorat" is " رئاسة"; and the library is " مكتبة الجامعة". In the second image the Arabic is " بلدية يسر ترحب بكم". Adam Bishop (talk) 18:12, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Adam! I notice that "كلية العلوم الإقتصادية" (for "economics") is the first part of the Arabic in its sign, but there is some Arabic below it too (probably to reflect "et des sciences de Gestion") - Would it be alright if you captured that Arabic as well? Also for "Rectorat" "رئاسة" is the first part, but there is some Arabic after that too WhisperToMe (talk) 18:39, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Oops, sorry, I was having trouble copying and pasting and some of it got deleted. The whole economics one is:

" كلية العلوم الإقتصادية و علوم التسيير"

And the rectorate in full is "university rectorate":

" رئاسة الجامعة"

Hope that works this time. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:42, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Signs in the University...

علامات في جامعة تيزي وزو

A multilingual sign in Kabylie....

علامة متعددة اللغات في منطقة القبائل (الجزائر) باللغة العربية والأمازيغية والفرانسية

Wrad (talk) 22:35, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Adam and Wrad, thank you so much :) ! I added the Arabic to the descriptions and file annotations WhisperToMe (talk) 00:06, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

September 23

What does the name Aelita mean?

Is it even a real name? I'd thought the Code Lyoko writers just made it up, but then I saw it was used in a Soviet sci-fi novel/movie. --128.42.223.219 (talk) 05:41, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Doing a google search turns up dozens of those sketchy "baby names" sites, but the consensus there is that the name means "Noble", as in a varient of "Elite". It isn't a common name, but it also isn't a completely made-up name either. There are real people with it. --Jayron32 05:46, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Remember it's a French series so it may help to ask French-speaking editors. WhisperToMe (talk) 06:54, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I believe that Alexei Tolstoy invented this name, for the Martian girl in the eponymous novel (1923). There was no "meaning" per se, but the name was meant to side sufficiently romantic and "Martian". -- Vmenkov (talk) 03:02, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Ngram agrees.--Luboslov Yezykin (talk) 04:10, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Arabic and French help

Hi! For File:TiziOuzou University-Thesis.JPG what is the Arabic and French for "The first Algerian Ph.D. Thesis in Berber Linguistics, Tizi Ouzou University, May 28, 2003" ? (For French, is it "la première thèse de doctorat des langues berbères, Université Mouloud Mammeri de Tizi Ouzou, 28 maï de 2003"?)

Secondly, for the board, is this a good English translation for what is there?

• Defense of Doctorate Thesis
• Presented by M. Mohamd Akli Haddadou
• Jury: Mrs. Noura Tigzire, M. Comp, UMMTO President
• Mr. Rabah Rahlouche, Professor, UMMTO Reporter
• Mrs. Dahla Morsly, Professor, U. Angers Examiner
• Mr. Vermondo Brugnatelli, Professor, U. Milan Examiner
• Mr. Boutelja Riche, M. Conf, UMMTO, Examiner (check spelling to make sure the names are spelled right, please)

It would be nice to also have an Arabic translation of the board listing too, so I can post it on the Wikimedia Commons entry Thanks, WhisperToMe (talk) 07:01, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I can help you for the French part: it would be "la première thèse de doctorat sur les langues berbères, Université Mouloud Mammeri de Tizi Ouzou, 28 mai 2003". For the English part, I would say "Defense of doctoral thesis"; as for the spelling, I read "Mohand", "Tigziri" and "Kahlouche". Hope it helps! Bryan P. C. C. (talk) 12:23, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Someone more intimately familiar with the French university system can probably clarify better, but it seems to me that Mme Tigzire was presiding over the defense, not that she was president of the university. "Rapporteur" is not a reporter, but maybe the student's thesis advisor? The others must be internal and external examiners. "M. Conf" is "maître de conférence", a specific rank in the French academic system, roughly equivalent to a "lecturer" in English although it differs depending on the English system. (Whenever I have had to translate that, I just leave it as a proper French noun).

Looking at fr.wki it would appear the un rapporteu is the main examiner who has actually read the thesis while "un examinateur" hasn't. The supervisor (le directeur de thèse) isn't specified in the picture. Aa77zz (talk) 15:13, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Thank you all for the feedback! I made a preliminary English annotation at File:TiziOuzou University-Thesis.JPG WhisperToMe (talk) 08:15, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Hello ! From what I saw more than 30 years ago in Lyon , France (but it may be subject to local and chrono. variations) , the "rapporteur" summarizes and presents your work in a rather friendly way (above all if you are one of his students, and if he's inspired the "thèse") while "les examinateurs" tend to tear it to pieces, and harass you, for exemple, for limitating yourself to a hundred cases etc...T.y. Arapaima (talk) 10:36, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

The file description currently says "The first Algerian Ph.D. Thesis in Berber Linguistics, Tizi Ouzou University, 28 May 2003", but the photo is not of the Ph.D. thesis itself but of the people present at the defense. Angr (talk) 10:50, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

The person who uploaded the photo may have been one of the people present at the meeting. Yes, this is an image of the PHD defense hearings. WhisperToMe (talk) 14:38, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Translation from Arabic

Hello! I have this paragraph about Francis Marrash, and there is a sentence about his trip to Paris with his father in 1850, but there are some words I am not able to read; especially the sentence that says he (?) stayed in Aleppo until 1853 (?). Would anyone be kind enough to type or translate these sentences for me? Thank you very much in advance! Bryan P. C. C. (talk) 12:04, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

If no one manages to give you satisfactory assistance here, don't forget that there's the Arabic Wikipedia Language Reference Desk. --Theurgist (talk) 17:21, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

That's a good idea! Thank you so much Theurgist for telling me about it! I'll go post on it. Bryan P. C. C. (talk) 18:12, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Double contractions

I use "I'd've" in place of "I would have", but I'm not sure how to put that in writing. Is this the correct way ? Are there any other such double contractions ? StuRat (talk) 17:43, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

You'll've noticed spell check doesn't like these double contractions. μηδείς (talk) 18:13, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I use these informally, and write them more or less that way—I'd've, wouldn't've, couldn't've, etc. I don't think anybody considers these standard, and most spell-checking software will mark these wrong unless you tell them not to. Mind, most style guides will tell you to avoid contractions entirely in essays and such. Personally, I tend to write with a slightly irreverent, plain-English kind of tone even in those situations, so I let them in anyway, hehe.  dalahäst ^{(let's talk!)} 18:45, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Sturat, don't forget that you can indicate a non-standard word, pronunciation, or spelling with a single apostrophe. Thus I'd of' is allowed, after eyeing the pronunciation. A less anal editor would probably just write I'd of in prose. In the least formal online forums, if I wanted to be quite colloquial I might even write what I'd of done, etc. Most readers wouldn't even notice - it would just come off as authentic speech. The reason no variation of I'd've really looks right is because this is what is usually done instead. 80.98.245.172 (talk) 19:37, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I also note that this "authenticity" comes at the price of some actual aural authenticity. To me "I'd've" uses the iv schwa whereas i'd of' uses the ov schwa. So writing "I'd ov" to mean "I'd iv" is cheating ever-so-slightly. But iv and ov (I'd 've and I'd of) are really blending. Most people wouldn't even make the distinction, I think. (This indent is just about the pronunciation that is suggested by the spelling I propose). 80.98.245.172 (talk) 19:44, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Are you kidding, IP 80? "I'd of" is a sign of written illiteracy. It has nothing to do with more accurately representing spoken pronunciation, which is perfectly represented by I'd've. People don't speak misspellings. One might as well say "Your a good friend of mine" or "Theirs know they're they're" are "authentic". I had to stop reading a book once where the author intentionally used "I'd of", which brought me up short every time I saw it. μηδείς (talk) 19:53, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I would just write I'd have; [əv] is a weak pronunciation of have even when it isn't spelled 've. Consider a sentence like My brothers have called me ten times this week. I wouldn't write it My brothers've called... but I'd definitely pronounce it [ˈbrʌðɚzəv]. Angr (talk) 20:24, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

But when writing dialog, it's important to convey the level of formality of the speech. Mabye "My brothers 've called" would be better, with a space ? StuRat (talk) 20:33, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

But there's not even really a schwa there--that's a phantom of citation form and our tendency to analyze syllables with vowels. No one ever says "I'd (pause) of". The /v/ in a naturally spoken "I'd've" is perfectly syllabic on its own. μηδείς (talk) 21:01, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree with everything Medeis has said on this thread. I'd also make the point that what spellcheck may or may not like should be close to irrelevant for good writers (sheesh, it even has a problem with "spellcheck"). I'dn't've thought that was a problem.

PS. StuRat, your love of truth is well known. This question is further evidence of it. I feel supremely confident you'll follow whatever we tell you here. Just as you always do when we tell you the only correct way of writing the possessive adjective its is without an apostrophe. For example. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 22:09, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

It's important for me to know the proper way to spell it, so I can spell it anyway but that. :-) StuRat (talk) 22:47, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Well, why didn't you say! Heck, if that's the only problem, I can suggest lots of ideas: it-s, iTs, its. it...s, it/s, it(s), zebra, cheese, love, splinge, spifflicate, ... There must be others. Have at it. Enjoy. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 22:58, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't agree with Medeis's claim that there's no schwa in I'd've. The lack of a pause between I'd and 've doesn't prove anything. When I pronounce it, there is a moment after I release the [d] before I articulate the [v] during which no active articulator is in contact with any passive articulator, but I'm still exhaling through vibrating vocal chords. And that is the schwa sound. Maybe Medeis pronounces it differently, though. Angr (talk) 06:44, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Argue all you like, but /v/ is a voiced continuant, and if you can't say it without an independent vowel, you are not a fluent SAE or RP English speaker. You may pronounce a schwa there, but it is not inherent. μηδείς (talk) 21:45, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

I didn't say I couldn't, I said I don't. If you actually pronounce it [aɪdv̩] with no period of even a few milliseconds between the release of the [d] and the articulation of the [v], you're probably the only native English speaker who does. English doesn't have syllabic obstruents (except in a few marginal forms like psst!), only syllabic sonorants. Angr (talk) 22:02, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

For formal writing, I would say that "I'd've" is fairly atrocious. But for writing in a slangy way, "I'd've" works just fine. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:47, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

I found this on Commons: File:Iwouldnothavecontractedlikethis.jpg. It isn't an article, per se, but it is interestingly germaine to this discussion. WHAPOE maybe? (we have a pic on everything)... --Jayron32 06:00, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Reminds me of "ima" (as in Kanye West's "Ima let you finish..."), the remaining three letters/sounds of "I am going to". Adam Bishop (talk) 09:38, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Reminds me of what someone posted above. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 21:14, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

@ Angr, I guess the really relevant question is, are I'd of and I'd've contrasting minimal pairs? While there is a way that I can pronounce I'd of so it sounds indistinguishable from I'd've, it is also possible for me to say I'd of with a schwa in a way that I simply would never pronounce I'd've. You seem, if I understand, to be saying they are not a contrasting pair in your speech. I can't say I have ever heard anyone say "I'd. . . of" for "I'd've", but I would love to hear it on youtube (outside an elicited example) if someone has such a link. μηδείς (talk) 22:13, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Medeis, as the sequence I'd of is impossible in grammatical English, your question is meaningless. But if I misquoted "Beware the ide of March" it would sound just like I'd've. Sussexonian (talk) 09:10, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

How good is the "UK English versus American English" analogy for Austrian German versus German German?

How good is the UK English versus American English analogy for the difference between Austrian and German German?

According to the analogy, the STANDARD version of the two basically just have some minor spelling differences, and a speaker to one sounds like an "accent" to a speaker of the other. (assuming an educated speaker speaking in a standard way). is this true? --80.98.245.172 (talk) 19:32, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

That sounds more like the difference between US English and Canadian English. The larger difference between US English and UK English also includes usage differences. Also, since Germany borders Austria, the geographic analogy with the US and Canada is also present. Note that border regions of the US and Canada have a blended accent, does this also happen between Germany and Austria ? StuRat (talk) 20:01, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes. The accents of Bavaria and Austria, while not identical, are more similar than they are different, and certainly more similar to each other than they are to the accents of the rest of the German-speaking world. As for the written language, the differences are much smaller than between British and American, or even between Canadian and American. There are no pure spelling differences as far as I know; the differences are mostly in vocabulary (is January called Januar or Jänner? are tomatoes called Tomaten or Paradeiser?) and syntax (ich habe gesessen or ich bin gesessen? - but even that isn't a Germany vs. Austria difference so much as a northern vs. southern difference with Bavarians, Allemanic speakers, and Austrians patterning together). Angr (talk) 20:18, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

for what it's worth, guys, when it comes to standard English, you can read many chapters before you realize that you have a "British edition" in your hand (maybe it's somethinas small as realise for realize). Other times you might get through the damn book and never know it. So, I would say that in standard, written English there are next to no differences; it really is an "accent" (like speaking with an unpronounced Boston, Southern, or Californian accent) and for this difference only very very rarely makes it onto the page.

With that said, does the same apply to German German versus Austrian German? Or is it heavier than that? I don't know how Canadians talk. 80.98.245.172 (talk) 22:09, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Well, I can read German or English without noticing which language I just read. On the other hand, I don't think there even are separate German and Austrian versions of books (there may be different editions from different publishers, but, as far as I know, the text will usually be the same same). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:31, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Note also that the spelling differences between British and American standards do not represent differences in pronunciation. μηδείς (talk) 02:14, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

With one exception: the two spellings of alumin(i)um do reflect the two pronunciations. But otherwise, no, the pronunciation differences aren't reflected in the spelling, and the spelling differences don't reflect the pronunciation differences. Angr (talk) 06:46, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

There are a lot of "exceptions", from the top of my head air(o)plane, buro(ugh), and I am sure there are many more. I think all you can say is they usually don't represent a difference in pronunciation. -- Q Chris (talk) 13:17, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Airplane/aeroplane is indeed another exception (I don't think it reaches the point of simply being two different words like gasoline/petrol), but borough as a standalone noun (as opposed to an element in various place names) is spelled the same in en-US and en-GB. Certainly Americans don't write "Brooklyn is a boro of New York City", at least not in edited writing. Angr (talk) 13:27, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, there are lots of differences that reveal whether the text is British or American (a couple that spring to mind are "1 thru 10/1 to 10" and the different meaning of "momentarily"), but I agree that one can sometimes read a whole book without realising that it was published in a "foreign" version. Other "exceptions" where the spelling reflects a pronunciation difference are behove/behoove, furore/furor, haulier/hauler and speciality/specialty. Dbfirs 16:59, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Things like aeroplane and aluminium are word variants, not reflections of different pronunciations of the same sound. There is no rule in American speech that requires one to drop an o between aer- and -plane, and an American will agree that aeroplane is pronounced "air-oh-plane" without at all affecting a British accent to say it. Conversely, regular phonetic differences are not reflected in spelling. The RP speaking British don't drop their ars in spelling harm or card. Americans with the Mary-marry merger don't spell both Harry and hairy as hary because the say them the same. There may be spelling variants like tyre and there may be word variants like whilst--and there are indeed jocular variants like "toon" for "tune" which do reflect regular pronunciation differences--but there are no standard spelling variations that reflect differences in pronunciation of the same word between British and American. μηδείς (talk) 17:23, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

It is kind of odd that differently spelled words are pronounced the same way, at least within the confines of the respective accents (color vs. colour) whereas the pronouncation differences seem to arise where the spelling is constant (schedule as "skedule" vs. "shedule"). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:24, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Noah Webster's change of -our to -or and -re to -er work because they are both etymological (these are the Latin, not the French spellings) and they match pronunciation. μηδείς (talk) 02:43, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Why was Latin favoured over French here? English was not exactly uninfluenced by the presence of French-speaking people. And how can "color" be considered to match the pronunciation any more than "colour" does? The only thing that changes is the ending, yet that's unstressed no matter which dialect you speak. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 02:54, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

September 24

Adaptation of the Ancient place names into Turkish

I wondered why the name of Kayseri has a diphthong, as I known in Byzantine Greek by the 11th century αι already became ε. Though I've found in the Wikipedian article that it came through Arabic Kaisariyah. Nevertheless, whether in the 7th century the diphthong αι was still in Greek? I thought that it became a monophthong long before this date.
Another question: why "z" was added in İznik? I perfectly know that all the Turkic languages usually avoid sonorants in the beginning of words, but why not simply İnik?
So, finally, is there any general research on Turkification of the Ancient place names into Turkish?--Luboslov Yezykin (talk) 00:25, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Iznik comes from a reanalysis of the Greek preposition eis, meaning "into". So just as Istanbul comes from εἰς τὴν Πόλιν (eis tēn Polin) "into the City", Iznik means "into Νίκαια" (Nikaia). μηδείς (talk) 00:37, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it's obvious! I've totally forgotten about Istanbul! Though why have the Turks adapted it with "into the"? Didn't they hear from the Greeks the bare names of the cities or with other prepositions? E.g. "I came from Nicaea" or "Ø Nicaea is a great city" etc.--Luboslov Yezykin (talk) 02:10, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

That sort of thing is typical in loanwords, such as Western languages borrowing Arabic words with the al- article appended, such as alcohol;, English speakers talking about "the El Niño", The Zulu language reanalyzing initial consonants in borrowed words as noun class markers, so that the English spoon is analyzed as the root -punu maked with the isi- noun class prefix. Since the izi- prefix marks the plural of the isi- class, the plural of spoon in Zulu becomes izipunu.

For the specific case of the Is/z- prefix, Turkish doesn't use prepositions. So the very common answer to "Where are you going?" which would have a destination with a dative (I believe) case ending in the Turkish language would be answered with a prepositional phrase in Greek, but not be understood that way in a language that lacked prepositions. Note also that eis is a proclitic in Greek, so it did not bear its own stress, and would seem like part of the following word. http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/lessons/greek-accentuation.asp?pg=9 μηδείς (talk) 02:50, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

That's right, Turkish uses the dative case for the concepts of "to/towards/into something", in contrast to the general Indo-European pattern, where the accusative case is employed for that purpose, usually along with a preposition. --Theurgist (talk) 16:08, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

I wonder how it looked in real life. I imagine that once upon a time a Turkish merchant came to Nicaea and asked (in broken Greek) a local the name of the city: "Vot iz neym ov dis siti?". "This city is Nicaea", replied the local. Then after trading he returned to his native city and told his fellow merchants in the bazaar that there is a rich city in the west called Nicaea. So why did he hear from the Greeks not Nicaea (Nikea) but Innicaea (Iznikea)? --Luboslov Yezykin (talk) 03:59, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Because in natural speech one much more often hears "I am going to the city" as a destination than "the city is beautiful", or "on fire". A verbatim google for "to the city" gets 9,450,000,000 hits. That's Nine Billion+ μηδείς (talk) 04:13, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Another example akin to Istanbul or Iznik, but in the other direction Alexandria is transliterated into Arabic as "al-Iskandariyyah"; that is the "Al" from the Greek name of the city is re-appropriated as the "al-" definite article, something similar happened with Iskanderun which used to be "Alexandretta", but the "Al" was dropped from the name, as though it were an optional article. --Jayron32 04:10, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

I have never bought the traditional etymology of İstanbul as being εἰς τὴν Πόλιν. That stinks of folk etymology, and fails to explain why the name isn't İstinbul, or does someone want to claim Doric Greek was still being spoken in Constantinople in the 11th century? I'm convinced the -stan- of İstanbul is the -stan- of Constantinople, with a prothetic i added to make the consonant cluster pronounceable, same as the Turks did with İzmir < Smyrna and Isparta < Sparta (and coincidentally the same as Vulgar Latin did with all sC- clusters, hence Spanish escuela < schola etc.) Angr (talk) 06:57, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree. This happens in Hungarian, too. The word for 'table' is 'asztal' (from Russian or other Slavic 'stol') and the word for 'school' is 'iskola'. It's common in many languages to add a supporting vowel for unfamiliar consonant clusters from loan words. French even added the supporting vowel, and then dropped the troublesome consonant in 'école'. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 16:10, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Finnish, on the other hand, simply dropped consonants it couldn't be bothered with, which is why it calls Stockholm Tukholma and France Ranska. Angr (talk) 16:15, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

So I suppose you believe equally strongly that con- > i- and -tin- > 0 are perfectly natural developments requiring no special pleading to explain? μηδείς (talk) 16:59, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

No, I said where the i- came from. The con- and -tin- presumably wore away in the way syllables in long words are always prone to do. Angr (talk) 18:15, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

If I may add to the prothetic vowel theory - I distinctly remember that IStanbul was historically called Stamboul, which is perhaps the original contraction of (Con)stan(tino)pol(is). Ratzd'mishukribo (talk) 05:25, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

The plausibility of the -tan- as a form of the article in eis tin polin is confirmed by parallel cases such as eis tin Ko > İstanköy, where the etymology is beyond any doubt. I'm not sure what the current views on the explanation of the [a] is, but to the best of my knowledge the eis tin polin etymology has been the firmly held communis opinio in all research since the late 19th century. The alternative derivation from Konstantinupolis was considered back then and is considered obsolete. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:00, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

There's also the question of when in the last millennium eta started being pronounced as ita. μηδείς (talk) 18:20, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Oh, that one would be early enough, during antiquity, at least in the mainstream varieties. Some eastern, Asia Minor varieties might have lagged back in some of these things though, judging by what is known from their fragmentary modern remnants. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:31, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Can anyone recommend any good books, popular or technical, on the development of Greek through time from Mycenaean to Demotic? Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 20:23, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

I often use Geoffrey Horrocks, Greek: A history of the language and its speakers. It's not very strong on the earliest (Mycenean/archaic) phases, but quite nice on the development of post-classical Koine and medieval Greek. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:31, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

That's fine, I'm actually much more up on Mycaenaean than I am on modern developments. Open to other sources. μηδείς (talk) 20:48, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

And what about the Greek diphthongs in the 7th century? Why not Keseri? --Luboslov Yezykin (talk) 13:13, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Dunno, but I suppose that placename would not have been borrowed directly from Greek to Turkish, but probably through Persian or some other intermediate language. Persian had apparently borrowed the title of "Caesar" in the form "Kaysar" (قیصر). Can't say when that was, but it may well have been a lot earlier than the time the Turks took over central Anatolia, and either Greek or Latin might well still have had a diphthong at that time. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:39, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Sanskrit question

J. Robert Oppenheimer famously quoted a line from the Bhagavad Gita, "Now I am become death, destroyer of worlds."

The line itself is usually translated as "I am time, destroyer of all things" by most translators, but I'm not interested in that.

I've been poking around with the relevant section of the Gita. I don't speak or read Sanskrit or any similar language. Am I correct in inferring that the second line from the top here is equivalent to the transliterated line that reads kalo smi ... pravrddho" which is equivalent to the line that Oppenheimer was referencing? --Mr.98 (talk) 01:51, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

It certainly looks like it from that link. Kāla has multiple meanings is Sanskrit, and it is likely a deliberate play on words, very common in Sanskrit literature, and completely lost in translation.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 07:39, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

been/bin homophony and Alan Partridge

In the US, "been" invariably rhymes with "bin", whereas in the UK it rhymes with "bean". I always thought that the "bin" pronunciation was a conspicuous and idiosyncratic Americanism not used by anyone in the UK, except perhaps by speakers of a highly divergent regional dialect. However, in this clip, Alan Partridge very clearly uses the "bin" pronunciation. I know that Steve Coogan comes from the north of England, but his character is from Norfolk. So what's going on? Is "bin" a northern pronunciation that Coogan used unconsciously, or a Norfolk pronunciation that he was using in character, or something else? LANTZY^TALK 05:31, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

I would say it is used extensively throughout the UK, and in most dialects (with the exception of RP). We even have a joke in English - a rubbish collector walks into a Chinese restaurant and says "Where's yer bin?" and the waiter says, "I bin Hong Kong on holiday." It's very common pronunciation all over the UK. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 05:47, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm afraid I can't help but add the rest of this (rather racist) joke, with apologies; Bin man: "No, I mean where's your wheelie bin?" Restaurateur: "I wheelie bin Hong Kong - you no berieve me?" Alansplodge (talk) 12:55, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

But when these Britons say "bin", is this just a reduced, lazy-mouthed pronunciation of "bean" that they use when talking quickly, or is it the way they would carefully enunciate the word in isolation? LANTZY^TALK 06:04, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

We always say bin in fast speech or even use a schwa. Except when it's emphasised. "I've bin thinking about that a lot" but "Where've you been?". Itsmejudith (talk) 06:29, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

After some consideration, I'm fairly certain that I say "bean" most of the time, even with my dodgy London accent. Alansplodge (talk) 16:37, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

It strikes me as possible than /bi:n/ is an affected spelling pronunciation. μηδείς (talk) 06:56, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

I think that would be very hard to prove. Alansplodge (talk) 12:56, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

As an aside, I'd like to ask the OP how "seen" is pronounced? Where I am in the UK, 'sid' is a regularly used substitute (for both seen and saw). "Have you sid Brian?" " Not today, I sid him yesterday though." - X201 (talk) 13:16, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

"Sid" is an abbreviation of "see'd" (used in place of seen or saw). "Sin" (abbreviated pronunciation of "seen") is also used in some dialects. Dbfirs 16:27, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

I disagree with the first half of the OP's first sentence. I speak US English, and I pronounce been to rhyme with ben if I'm speaking at slow or medium speed, and only rhyme it with bin at high speed. I'm pretty sure this is typical for the US. Duoduoduo (talk) 14:34, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

John Wells, in his Longman Pronunciation Dictionary lists /biːn/ (bean) and /bɪn/ (bin) for British English and only /bɪn/ for American English and writes, "Some BrE speakers have biːn as strong form, bɪn as weak form. — Preference poll, BrE (for strong form): biːn 92%, bɪn 8%." I (an American) also have both /bɪn/ and /bɛn/, though. Lesgles (talk) 14:48, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

To my surprise, my Am Eng dictionary Random House Webster's College Dictionary only gives /bɪn/. Wiktionary is inconsistent about it: for the Gen Amer pronunciation, both stressed and unstressed, it only gives /bɪn/, but under "homophones" for a US accent it gives both "bin" and "Ben".

Is it possible that /bɛn/ is regional in the US? Duoduoduo (talk) 15:05, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes. I associate it (very unscientifically) with Appalachian speech. /bɪn/ is far more common in my hearing. -- Elphion (talk) 15:13, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

I used only /bɛn/ for most of my childhood and young adult years (and I'm not from Appalachia) until I saw that dictionaries gave only /bɪn/ either preferentially or exclusively, and now make a conscious effort to pronounce it that way. Similarly, I've pronounced since /sɛns/ for most of my life, unless I remember not to. Angr (talk) 16:09, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

See pin-pen merger for some background on those two vowels. --Jayron32 16:12, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, though for me at least, it's only these two words where they get mixed up. Pin and pen themselves I distinguish in the usual way. Angr (talk) 16:32, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Interesting, I don't have the pin-pen merger but I do have /bɛn/ ("Where have you ben?") and /sɛns/ in free variation. I remember when learning to spell being surprised been wasn't spelled "bin". μηδείς (talk) 18:14, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

I speak a kind of western General American (definitely not Appalachian), and I don't have pen-pin merger except in the names of the letters M and N ([ɪm] and [ɪn]), but I pronounce "been" as [bɛn] (however "since" as [sɪn(t)s])... AnonMoos (talk) 02:28, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

To summarise for the OP. No, it is not regional, either North of England or East Anglia, but typical of casual speech in most or all British English varieties. By the way, Alan Partridge doesn't have a Norfolk accent but something more like Estuary English. John Wells is saying the same as my previous post. "I've bin listening tə this very carefully" vs "But where the hell have you beeeen all this time?" Alan, try reading aloud very quickly and carelessly and I think at least some of your beans will turn to bins. Itsmejudith (talk) 19:50, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Maybe some, but still not convinced. "Pussy cat, pussy cat where have you bin? I've bin up to London to visit the..." Doesn't work does it? Alansplodge (talk) 01:31, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

No, it doesn't, good example. The first one is what John Wells calls strong. The second one would count as weak in prose speech, but this is verse. If we're singing, it counts as a beat, so although it would be shorter than the first one (2 beats), there is a limit to how much it can be shortened. In speech though, because English is stress-timed, we could make it very short indeed. "I b'n up to London", stressing up and Lon. In fact, we could even leave it out and reply "Up to London". Itsmejudith (talk) 07:10, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Money bins, one hopes. That's if they're those magic beans we read about in Jack and the Binstalk.  :) -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 20:19, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm afraid the might be has bins and might have bins. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:39, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

And coulda bins. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 21:46, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

And Ich bin, ein Berliner: The box holding the jelly donuts. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:38, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for all the replies. It's somehow pleasing to learn that it's not the cut-and-dry NA/UK shibboleth that I imagined it was. LANTZY^TALK 23:51, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Simplified Chinese help

Can someone please get the original abstract for http://en.cnki.com.cn/Article_en/CJFDTOTAL-WGJY200801006.htm and translate it to English better than the translation provided? I am particularly interested in the phrase translated as "the new unjust phenomenon". Thanks. —Cupco 06:30, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Here is the Chinese language entry for the same article on that website: http://www.cnki.com.cn/Article/CJFDTotal-WGJY200801006.htm

Here is the Chinese language abstract:

【摘要】：在美国,教育权属于各州,联邦不能干预地方教育改革。然而,各州小班化教育改革,不仅没能很好地提高学生学业成绩,而且造成了新的不公平现象。为了保障教育效率与教育公平的平衡,联邦政府于1999年开展了一场轰轰烈烈的小班化教育改革,其中的经验与教训,对于深化我国的小班化教育实践、拓展我国的小班化教育研究具有借鉴意义。

My translation:

[Abstract]: In the United States, the education power belongs to the states, [and] the federal [government] cannot interfere in local education reform. However, not only has class size reducation education reforms in the states, not done very well to lift students' academic results, but has created new phenomena of unfairness [/inequity?]. To safeguard the balance between educational efficiency and educational unfairness, the federal government began in 1999 a round of fiery [as of a revolution] class size reduction education reform, the experience and lessons of which, has referential significance for deepening the practice of reduced class size education in this country, and expanding the study of reduced class size education in this country.

Note: the original Chinese language abstract has some grammatical errors such as superfluous commas, I have more or less preserved them here so that the translation is more faithful to the original. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 15:35, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. That answers my question very well. —Cupco 18:26, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

to smell = ?

Hello learned linguists ! I’m trying to pick up the cultural references of the Simpson episode Bart Stops to Smell the Roosevelts for WP fr, & I wonder what that caption exactly means ? Is here "smell" the equivalent of our french slang verb "kiffer" (from the moroccan كيف , meaning now in France "to like", "to love") and could the title mean "Bart is suddenly deeply fond of the Roosevelts" ? Or is it an allusion to a young hound snooping around, & suddenly stopping and sniffing at an unknown scent ? Thanks a lot beforehand for your answer. T.y.Arapaima (talk) 10:23, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

It's a pun on "Stopping to smell the roses", which is an English expression meaning "Taking the time to enjoy life". However, as Bart doesn't seem to particularly take time to enjoy life in this episode, it seems like a rather forced pun. StuRat (talk) 10:25, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

See the Wiktionary entry for stop and smell the roses. Dismas|^(talk) 15:57, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks a lot ! It appears in France everybody pronounces "Rousevelt" , so the link with "roses" is not obvious...I credited you both : cf note N° 1, in the french version. T.y. Arapaima (talk) 08:26, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

You're quite welcome. I noticed you missed the closing quotation mark, so I added it to the French Wikipedia article. StuRat (talk) 09:28, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Arapaima, you mention that in France everybody pronounces it "Rousevelt". You might be interested to know that in America a minority of people pronounce it that way too. Duoduoduo (talk) 14:43, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Resolved

Rhyme with orange

Is it too much of a stretch to say that syringe rhymes with orange?165.212.189.187 (talk) 14:46, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

This is a matter of opinion, but I would say that the two words do not rhyme. Same goes for lozenge as well. --Viennese Waltz 14:49, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

But The Blorenge does. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:54, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

My understanding is that to rhyme, two words must have the same primary-stressed syllable and must be identical in pronunciation from the vowel of the primary-stressed syllable all the way to the end. Syringe and orange are stressed on different syllables. Duoduoduo (talk) 14:56, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree, though in humorous rhymes spoken aloud you often hear words mispronounced to "make" them rhyme. -- Q Chris (talk) 15:01, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

So stress the same syllable. the "ringe" and "range" are pronounced the same afaikt.165.212.189.187 (talk) 15:15, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

• It is a marginal masculine rhyme, but it is not a feminine rhyme. In this context I can't resist giving a pointer to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kQBVneC30o. Looie496 (talk) 15:46, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Haliborange also rhymes with orange. Just saying. :) — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 15:48, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

In an interview with Ed Bradley, Eminem made lots of good-enough-for-rap rhymes for orange. The only one I remember off the top of my head is door-hinge. Angr (talk) 16:05, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

That's the Youtube clip I linked; it was actually Anderson Cooper, though. Looie496 (talk) 16:43, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Oh well, old dead black guy, young white gay guy, it's almost the same thing... Angr (talk) 22:08, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

I'd say that syringe is close-but-no-cigars as a masculine rhyme for orange in US English, though it works in UK English. According to Wiktionary, in UK English the last vowel in orange is indeed /I/ as in syringe, but in US English the last vowel in orange is alternately silent (making the word just one syllable) or a schwa. Duoduoduo (talk) 16:12, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

See also Words that rhyme with orange.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 20:29, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

They left out East Orange, among others. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:49, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Eminem may be late, but he is not black; and neither was Ed Bradley gay, although he did rock that earring. μηδείς (talk) 23:47, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

I think your slide rule slipped a notch. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:35, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Obsolete words

Do we have an article covering the concept of an obsolete word? If so, it should be linked in the Dagger (typography) article, just after the mention of the Oxford English Dictionary. 2001:18E8:2:1020:6959:C401:2BA7:1F7E (talk) 16:46, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

I see that someone redirected it to fossil word. This is incorrect: a fossil word is one that is not obsolete in one or a few settings. The Oxford Universal Dictionary classifies words as obsolete if they've completely fallen out of use, and a sense of a word as obsolete if only other senses are used today, such as "To lift up one's voice; to cry aloud; to sing loud or on a high note" for "yelp" in cases such as "Gude fadir,..To þe we crye and ȝelpe", which is "Good father,...To thee we cry and yelp." 2001:18E8:2:1020:6959:C401:2BA7:1F7E (talk) 19:01, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Chinese name for Betty Bossi?

Hi! In this article:

• "瑞士人迅速加入慢食队伍." Lianhe Zaobao. 27 September 2007 - Seems to discuss Betty Bossi briefly

It seems to be giving a Chinese name for Betty Bossi - But I'm not sure when the name begins and when it ends Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 18:56, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Probably 贝太厨房. Oda Mari (talk) 07:47, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I think that's right, though it means "Betty Kitchen". "Bossi" has not been given a transliteration in the article. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 08:39, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Actually, the "太" part (pronounced "tai") is only tenuously a transliteration of the "-tty" part of "Betty", it is probably intended to be used in the sense of "Mrs", so that the whole thing can also read as "Mrs Bei's Kitchen", which somewhat parallels "Betty Bossi"'s reference to a (fictitious) person. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 10:19, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Could be either, I guess. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 10:46, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Rewriting Elizabeth II's early life

See Talk:Elizabeth_II#Rewriting_some_lines. I wrote to several other admins and the editor himself, though neither of them responded. Spelling Style (talk) 20:54, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

This is not the place to recruit people to a discussion on an article talk page.

If you have a question for which there's a reference, we can help you. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 21:12, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

I was wondering about the best way to rewrite her early life, and did not feel it was necessary to copy and paste the whole thing again... What do people think of what's been written? Should it stay as is or be rewritten? Spelling Style (talk) 22:28, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

You didn't read what I wrote. You're asking us for our opinions on a piece of writing, or our suggestions for improvement. We're not here for that. We're here to help people answer their questions by producing references, citations, research material etc. That's why it's called a Reference Desk. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 23:00, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

The OP might want to go to ::WP:RFC but not here. μηδείς (talk) 23:51, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

September 25

Paragraph structure, and topic sentences, used on Wikipedia.

Hello,

I have reviewed all available style, punctuation, grammar, and article guidelines available on Wikipedia and I can't seem to find any definitive guides. Any recommendations? PeterWesco (talk) 00:20, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

I've noticed some don't actually define the term in the first sentence. I hate this, since when you roll the mouse over a link you expect to see the definition pop right up. Having to actually click on the link to track down the definition disrupts the flow of reading the original page. StuRat (talk) 00:24, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

We also have an expectation that the lede will be written for a general audience (or as general as that topic will allow), while complexities like derivations of formulae be further down, in the body of the article. StuRat (talk) 00:29, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

As for topic sentences on subsequent paragraphs, they don't all need to have one, since paragraph breaks aren't always due to a change in topic, they are sometimes just added because a paragraph on one topic gets too long. Also, the title of each section and subsection may sometimes serve as a topic sentence. StuRat (talk) 00:33, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Okay, this provides some level of guidance. I am working under the belief that the topic sentence defines the paragraph and all subsequent sentences are supporting details of the topic sentence. It is different for Encyclopedic information on new, or newer, topics that are in flux and the details are added, by various editors, in a semi-frantic fashion. Would you agree that, at some point, these articles need a full copy-edit and the facts grouped in clean paragraphs with topic sentences?PeterWesco (talk) 00:47, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Mostly, yes. I often do exactly that, often to articles with which I had had no prior involvement. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 02:47, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

I think there is a reluctance to impose style guidelines that will intimidate people with knowledge from adding material. Lots of people who have expertise on some topic are not particularly good writers. Looie496 (talk) 03:05, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

To which I agree and my desire is to not impose rigid standards as there are countless articles that are composed of a collection of "one liners" or "quick blurbs". Everyone plays a roll and these contributions benefit Wikipedia and will eventually be structured. PeterWesco (talk) 03:35, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Agree, my biggest pet peeve is the non-definitive lead sentence, along the lines of "The fratistats are a group of organisms belonging to the Fratistatidae". Or the lead sentence that defines the title of the article instead of what happened: "The Contested 2000 United States presidential election is an election that was held in the Ustited Nates on Yovember Nerth, in the year bum thousand and itch." I have rewritten the leads for a lot of articles such as fish, mammal, reptile with at least the goal of getting the subject defined in the first sentence and the main points of the entire article summarized in the lead. You run into two problems: experts who think a certain theory either should be mentioned in the lead although it's marginal, or should not be mentioned in the lead because it's become outmoded, even though historically it's hugely important (for example, Dinosaurs should not be mentioned in the lead of Reptile because the historical view that they were cold-blooded is false); and fanboiz who insist their fancruft (Gila monstaz is poisonous) has to go in the lead. Is this a ref desk question? μηδείς (talk) 03:53, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, if I am understanding your question, this is a ref desk question that I posed. Similar to your pet peeve, I have come across numerous articles that have been "corrected" to eliminate punctuation, sentences, paragraph structure, etc. I do not consider it an achievement to reduce sentences to less than 10 words and forgo the use of commas. Today, while searching in the WP:Manual of Style, I was pleased to find the WP:COMMA section.  :) PeterWesco (talk) 05:03, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Don't forget that you can, memetically stated, ignore ALL the rules! Any rule which states that leads like the 'fratistat' example are OK (other, similar forms I can picture occurring somewhere include "fountain pens are a kind of pen" and "bedspreads are a fabric designed for placement on beds") should be ignored, IMHO.  dalahäst ^{(let's talk!)} 07:26, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

My own pet peeve is tautological definition sentences in articles whose titles aren't proper names but self-descriptive phrases ("Elbonian grammar is the syntax and morphology of the Elbonian language"; or even worse: "Elbonian military decorations refers to military decorations awarded by Elbonia". But thank God we don't need to resort to IAR to solve this; the guidelines at WP:MOSBEGIN are actually quite reasonable. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:58, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

That's something dictionaries are famous for, as the alternative would be to define the same root word over and over. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:55, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Turkish help: File:HomelessParis 7032101.jpg

Hi! What is Turkish for "A homeless man in Paris" - I want to add it to File:HomelessParis 7032101.jpg Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 07:21, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

According to Google Translate it's "Paris'te evsiz bir adam". Gabbe (talk) 08:43, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Although the "bir" (meaning "one") is not really necessary. --Xuxl (talk) 11:53, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Seeing the question earlier today, I also was going to guess "Paris'te evsiz bir adam" exactly, but refrained from posting since my Turkish skills are limited. In any case, remember that if you choose to set off the Turkish in all caps, the i's still must be dotted: "PARİS'TE EVSİZ BİR ADAM". Not keeping the dot of a dotted İi is a mistake in Turkish, because that produces another letter, the dotless Iı. --Theurgist (talk) 16:25, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

"Thank you for verbing" in German

In German, how are statements like "Thank you for doing something" said? When I look up phrases like "Thank you for visiting" or "Thank you for helping", they inevitably give the translations "Danke für Ihren Besuch" or "Danke für Ihre Hilfe" - in other words, they rewrite the sentence so the thing that the speaker is grateful for is a noun, rather than a verb. However, I've not found any site that explains what the more general pattern is, in cases where there's not necessary an obvious noun (apart from the verb infinitive) covering the act. For instance, "Thank you for bringing my glasses" - would that be something like "Danke für Ihr Bringen von(?) meine Brille" (Google translates that as "Danke, dass Sie meine Brille" or "Danke für die meine Brille", but that sounds grammatically odd, and like it's thanking someone for the glasses themselves, rather than the act of bringing them)? Smurrayinchester 11:42, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

"Thank you for bringing my glasses" would translate as Danke, dass Sie meine Brille gebracht haben. Google strangely fails to translate the verb. The general construction is with a dass subclause. --Wrongfilter (talk) 13:06, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree with both your phrase books and Wrongfilter. If "Xing" in "Thank you for Xing" can be conveniently converted into a noun, that's probably the most idiomatic way of saying it. If it can't, then a dass phrase is the way to go. Angr (talk) 13:32, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

"Doing", "visiting", "helping" are all nouns, not verbs. Bazza (talk) 14:05, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Actually, not quite: they are gerunds, a special category in English that shares structural properties of nominal and verbal syntax. The reason for the observed difference with German is just that German does not have such a category. The syntactic frame "to thank (sb.) for (sth.)" ("danken für"), being prepositional, requires a nominal complement in both languages. English has this convenient trick of using a gerund phrase in that place, which can act like a noun phrase outwardly but still have fully verbal syntax internally. German can't do that; it only has nominalized infinitives, which are much more unambiguously noun-like than English gerunds. ("Danke fürs Blumengießen"; "Danke für das Gießen der Blumen"). That's why the most elegant option is often a paraphrase with a real noun, or the "that" alternative. Wir bedanken uns, dass Sie heute Wikipedia für Ihre Informationsbeschaffung gewählt haben, wünschen Ihnen noch einen schönen Nachmittag im Internet und hoffen, Sie bald wieder auf unseren Seiten begrüßen zu dürfen. – Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:28, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Jeez, I didn't know Wikipedia had its own stewardesses. Angr (talk) 14:41, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

The joke survived Google Translate, too. :>) Bielle (talk) 15:53, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Pronunciation of the French surname "Serville"

According to the general rules the name of this person should be /sɛrvij/. Though there is a quite homonymous word "servile" and the final part of the surname homographic with "ville". So it can be also /servil/. But my opinion that the surname came from the first word, and the bearer modified it to avoid any bad connotations, this is why there is not -ile, but -lle, which should be pronounced as /-ij/. How should it be pronounced anyway?--Luboslov Yezykin (talk) 13:10, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

As /-ij/. Your opinion that there is any connection between the name and the word "servile" is highly unlikely, and any similarity is coincidental. The name is a toponymn from Serville, a village in France, and there is no plausible reason to suspect that the name of the village is related in any way to the word "servile", either. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 14:10, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

If it comes from a village Serville, then it should be pronounced with an /-il/. The word ville is pronounced that way, as are most if not all the place names ending in ville. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:47, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm with Judith on this. The "-ville" suffix in surnames is almost always pronounced "/vil/", similar to (but less diphthongy) the English word "veal", and the "l" isn't the "dark l" typical in final English L's. But it definately isn't usually /j/ at the endwhich would appear in words like "travail", or "work". (My mom's surname is a -ville name, and I've heard it spoken in Quebecois French many times. I don't think Metropolitan French deals with it much differently.) --Jayron32 16:56, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Untranslated Russian term of early Sovet era

I believed it starts with the letter "O"

Basically, the meaning is active Communists who actively sought out "traitors" of the Soviet ideal, sometimes innocents tu curry favours with the authorities. Eisenikov (talk) 14:49, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

"xh" in Liégeois placenames

I notice a lot of places in Liège (province) contain the digraph "xh", both word-initially and word-internally. What sound is that meant to represent? My guess would be /x/ or /ç/ (being as "ch" signifies something else in French). 137.205.238.4 (talk) 15:49, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

According to xh (digraph), "In Walloon to write a sound that is variously /h/ or /ʃ/, depending on the dialect." So there you go. --Jayron32 16:49, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

countable or non countable

is the word fish plural or singular in the sentence below?

Fish can't live in the air.