Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard

"WP:DRN" redirects here. For the "Deny Recognition" essay, see WP:DNR.

Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN)

This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Wikipedia policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. This may also apply to some groups. Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN. Do you need assistance? Would you like to help? Request dispute resolution If we can't help you, a volunteer will point you in the right direction. Discussions should be civil, calm, concise, neutral, objective and as nice as possible. This noticeboard is for content disputes only. Comment on the contributions, not the contributors. Off-topic or uncivil behavior may garner a warning, improper material may be struck-out, collapsed, or deleted, and a participant could be asked to step back from the discussion. We cannot accept disputes that are already under discussion at other content or conduct dispute resolution forums or in decision-making processes such as Requests for comments, Articles for deletion, or Requested moves. The dispute must have been recently discussed extensively on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to be eligible for help at DRN. The discussion should have been on the article talk page. Discussion on a user talk page is useful but not sufficient, because the article talk page may be watched by other editors who may be able to comment. Discussion normally should have taken at least two days, with more than one post by each editor. Ensure that you deliver a notice to each person you add to the case filing by leaving a notice on their user talk page. DRN has a notice template you can post to their user talk page by using the code shown here: {{subst:drn-notice}}. Be sure to sign and date each notice with four tildes (~~~~). Giving notice on the article talk page in dispute or relying on linking their names here will not suffice. Do not add your own formatting in the conversation. Let the moderators (DRN Volunteers) handle the formatting of the discussion as they may not be ready for the next session. Follow moderator instructions There will be times when the moderator may issue an instruction. It is expected of you to follow their instruction and you can always ask the volunteer on their talk page for clarification, if not already provided. Examples are about civility, don't bite the newcomers, etc. If you need help: If you need a helping hand just ask a volunteer, who will assist you. This is not a court with judges or arbitrators that issue binding decisions: we focus on resolving disputes through consensus, compromise, and advice about policy. For general questions relating to the dispute resolution process, please see our FAQ page. Become a volunteer We are always looking for new volunteers and everyone is welcome. Click the volunteer button above to join us, and read over the volunteer guide to learn how to get started. Being a volunteer on this page is not formal in any respect, and it is not necessary to have any previous dispute resolution experience. However, having a calm and patient demeanor and a good knowledge of Wikipedia policies and guidelines is very important. It's not mandatory to list yourself as a volunteer to help here, anyone is welcome to provide input. Volunteers should remember: Volunteers should gently and politely help the participant fix problems. Suggest alternative venues if needed. Try to be nice and engage the participants. Volunteers do not have any special powers, privileges, or authority in DRN or in Wikipedia, except as noted here. Volunteers who have had past dealings with the article, subject matter, or with the editors involved in a dispute which would bias their response must not act as a volunteer on that dispute. If any editor objects to a volunteer's participation in a dispute, the volunteer must either withdraw or take the objection to the DRN talk page to let the community comment upon whether or not the volunteer should continue in that dispute. Listed volunteers open a case by signing a comment in the new filing. When closing a dispute, please mark it as "closed" in the status template (see the volunteer guide for more information), remove the entire line about 'donotarchive' so that the bot will archive it after 48 hours with no other edits. Open/close quick reference To open, replace {{DR case status}} with {{DR case status|open}} To close, replace the "open" with "resolved", "failed", or "closed". Add {{DRN archive top|reason=(reason here) ~~~~}} beneath the case status template, and add {{DRN archive bottom}} at the bottom of the case. Remember to remove the DoNotArchive bit line (the entire line).

Case		Created		Last volunteer edit		Last modified
Title	Status	User	Time	User	Time	User	Time
Nivkh alphabets	In Progress	Modun (t)	7 days, 16 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 9 hours	Modun (t)	3 hours
Metrication in the United Kingdom	Closed	Friendliness12345 (t)	7 days, 3 hours	Kovcszaln6 (t)	3 days, 6 hours	Kovcszaln6 (t)	3 days, 6 hours
Desi	Closed	Factfinderrr (t)	1 days, 17 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	8 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	8 hours
Lydham Hall	New	Olga Sydney (t)	22 hours	None	n/a	Olga Sydney (t)	22 hours

If you would like a regularly-updated copy of this status box on your user page or talk page, put {{DRN case status}} on your page. Click on that link for more options.
Last updated by FireflyBot (talk) at 10:46, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Current disputes

Talk:Intelligent design

– This request has been open for some time and must be reviewed.

Filed by MisterDub on 22:55, 21 August 2013 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Intelligent design (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• MisterDub (talk · contribs)
• North8000 (talk · contribs)
• dave souza (talk · contribs)
• Guettarda (talk · contribs)
• Dominus Vobisdu (talk · contribs)
• Cla68 (talk · contribs)
• Andrew Lancaster (talk · contribs)
• Johnuniq (talk · contribs)
• Noformation (talk · contribs)
• Yopienso (talk · contribs)
• BabyJonas (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

User:North8000 wishes to add some information about previous uses of the phrase intelligent design before its adoption by creation scientists. I (and others) feel this information belongs elsewhere, in the Teleological argument.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

This is a recurring discussion on the Talk pages. It gets much attention, the consensus ends up keeping the current page, and discussion dies down until the issue is reopened. No other steps have been taken.

How do you think we can help?

I think this dispute revolves around the common names for these subjects, and it would be nice to have some input on that front. North8000 often characterizes it as a problem of scope (i.e. that the article currently disregards all intelligent design (ID) that is not associated with the Discovery Institute), and we could probably use some expertise in distinguishing ID from the teleological argument (aka argument from design).

Summary of dispute by North8000

This is more complex than described:

• There are three larger interrelated issues ("chicken-and-the-egg" type interrelations) and the described question is merely a proposed edit relating to them it is not the issue.
• There is a larger longer term difference of opinion. The described edit is just a tiny bit of addressing concerns expressed by a large number of editors. Also, as many of those have been "chased away" an RFC with external eyes may be needed. (though the vast majority of the editors there keep it on a high plane and do not do such things which makes this very promising)

Nevertheless I would be happy to participate here. Sincerely,North8000 (talk) 09:46, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by dave souza

Since before April 2012, North8000 has been arguing that the scope of the ID article and the term is broader than the modern adaptation of the design argument as promulgated by the Discovery Institute. As an outcome of discussion on his June 2012 proposal for a scope-defining statement which would have widened the scope of the article, trimming of the Origins of the term section was discussed. Following broad agreement that original research and examples unrelated to the current usage should be trimmed, I made edits starting to implement this on 3 July 2012, then following talk page discussion, moved examples to a footnote.[1] Thus examples which are peripheral to modern use of the term are covered in summary style.

North8000 has persisted with discussions trying to widen the scope of the ID article beyond the modern usage of intelligent design, and has repeatedly requested that more prominence should be given in the article to these offtopic examples of what he calls Historic intelligent design material. Despite repeated requests, no new secondary sources have been shown to support these proposed changes. . dave souza, talk 12:30, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Guettarda

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Dominus Vobisdu

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Cla68

This is a content dispute that probably should be addressed in an RfC as recommended by North8000. North8000 mentions that editors have been "chased away" which is a reference to what I believe is a larger problem with that article. The talk page for the Intelligent Design article is one of the most hostile discussion forums I have ever come across in Wikipedia. I myself have been subjected to personal insults on that article talk page several times in the last few months after posting an opinion. Opinions left by new or IP editors are sometimes removed by other editors, and other editors on that page feel it is ok to revert war on contributions to the article without prior discussion. I believe effective administrator intervention may be necessary. Notice I said "effective". Unfortunately, I don't believe WP's current administration is up to the task. Cla68 (talk) 22:21, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Andrew Lancaster

Maybe more opinions can help but I note there are already a fairly large number of experienced good faith editors on the article talk page, and the discussion is fairly rational. The basic policies which are relevant are clear, and not really in dispute, and this is as far as I can see a case where careful balancing/judgment is inevitably going to require some discussion. I'd suggest anyone interested should look at the talk page first and consider whether it is better to post directly there (keeping all discussion in one place).--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:22, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Johnuniq

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Noformation

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Yopienso

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by BabyJonas

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Talk:Intelligent design discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• I'd have to concur with Cla68 here. An RFC I think would be the best way to go - get as many uninvolved people discussing this as possible, and come to a consensus that way. I'd be happy to help set up the RFC. Steven Zhang ^{Help resolve disputes!} 11:15, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
• Seems like this one has gone quiet - I'll close it out in 24 hours if there's nothing else discussed here but an RFC seems the way to go with this one. Steven Zhang ^{Help resolve disputes!} 02:00, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
• Before closing this, perhaps people would like to take account of what is happening on the Teleological argument page. I see that it is involved in this dispute. In an edit blitz, the term "intelligent design" has been introduced by one editor (appearing above) pretty well everywhere. This seems to be a spill-over from the dispute going on here. I, and another editor, tried to show that the introduction of 'intelligence', in the phrase "argument from design" was a recent thing, while the editor, just referred to, removed my cited quotations, saying they were OR. It sounds very similar to what is going on here. I have asked for a Wikipedia:Third opinion. Myrvin (talk) 17:02, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

• Steven an RFC must definitely be in the minds of several of us, but I guess a major concern must come from the question of how to define the core of the complex question, and in such a way that it does not become a beauty contest. The concerns leading to proposals for change are still apparently poorly understood by some editors, partly because of the subject matter and partly because it involves areas of WP policy where people often have misunderstandings. And so the concerns tend to become simplified into absolute proposals whereas there must be dozens of ways of alleviating those concerns if editing and discussion were more healthy on that article. => Maybe it is a silly idea, but I was just thinking that a recent event might help: I have broken a recent major revert into 9 separable edits which I think could be considered independently: [2]. At least a few of them are kind of practical digestible versions of some of the core concerns separating the most active discussants. Just wondering if this makes any helpful sense. BTW although Myrvin probably thinks I'm annoying I agree with him fully that there are several articles which are clearly and openly linked back to the controversy on intelligent design.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 19:52, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

That's a reasonable concern, Andrew. In the past some mediations have functioned to just help define scope. I might head over to the talk page, do some reading and ponder how we can proceed from here but I'm open to the idea of guiding the discussion if that would be of assistance. Steven Zhang ^{Help resolve disputes!} 12:29, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Simon Wells

Dispute resolved successfully. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by EuroCarGT on 18:13, 31 August 2013 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Simon Wells (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved 50.105.84.129 (talk · contribs) Flyer22 (talk · contribs) Freshh (talk · contribs) Trivialist (talk · contribs) Dispute overview Information issues. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Talk page How do you think we can help? Get the real facts from reliable sources. Summary of dispute by 50.105.84.129 Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by Flyer22 Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by Freshh One user claims that Mr. Wells directed a film called Wendy in Wonderland, which is unsourced if such film existed. Summary of dispute by Trivialist The user at 50.105.84.129 (and at other IPs) persists in changing An American Tail: Fievel Goes West to Wendy in Wonderland in several articles, most recently Amblin Entertainment, John Cleese, Phil Nibbelink, and Simon Wells. Simon Wells discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Not much of a dispute to resolve here, relatively clear cut misinformation being inserted by the IP. I'll get that addressed, but no further action needs to be taken here. Closing. Steven Zhang Help resolve disputes! 02:08, 1 September 2013 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Anti-Serb sentiment

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Antidiskriminator on 12:47, 1 September 2013 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Anti-Serb sentiment (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Antidiskriminator (talk · contribs)
• Peacemaker67 (talk · contribs)
• Joy (talk · contribs)
• Bobrayner (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

A group of users think that it is wrong to have criticism section in the article about hatred towards an ethnic group, in this case Serbs, because it implies that such a sentiment may not even exist and justifies this sentiment (based on source which I believe is outdated politically motivated primary source). This view is also based on WP:CONSISTENCY - because no other article (45 of them) on hatred toward an ethnic group does not have criticism section.

I proposed not to deny or justify hatred in Controversy section but to present explanations in one or couple of sentences within the main body of the article (with no outdated politically motivated primary sources) or to point to articles which provide more context in the See also section.

Peacemaker67 and Joy do not agree.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Discussion

How do you think we can help?

To organize discussion based on human common sense, arguments and wikipedia policies without unnecessary personalization, uncivility and fallacy, which would hopefully lead to consensus about this dispute.

Summary of dispute by Peacemaker67

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

I will not be able to enter into this discussion properly until I have access to a real computer (at least five days away). I'm on iPhone, and it just isn't practical. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 13:25, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

I will just briefly add that the "group of users" Antidiskriminator alludes to is a group of one. The other two editors that have engaged in this discussion are a registered account that has made a total of two edits (both to the talk page thread in question), and an IP that has made one edit (also to this talk page thread). Peacemaker67 (send... over) 12:12, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Joy

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Please see Talk:Anti-Serb sentiment#Criticism?? etc. The entirety of the article has a variety of problems; pruning the criticism altogether, which is what was suggested originally, would easily be seen as whitewashing, and adding just another problem to the pile. Antidiskriminator seems to have a tendency of making various edits consistent with Serbian nationalist talking points, recently he 'earned' an WP:ARBMAC topic ban over one Serbian World War II issue (a Chetnik commander) and led to a move ban over another (the article about the Nazi occupation of Serbia), and this appears to be no exception - let's shun the criticism from the get-go just because it doesn't fit our preferred narrative. Assorted Croatian and other nationalists who tried to delete the entire article on their own deluded premises notwithstanding -- the criticism of the use of this term in the more recent history is entirely legitimate, and is already sourced to several English-language publications that appear to be reliable sources. The term has been tainted in the 1980s with the SANU Memorandum's perfidious invocation of "Serbophobia", and in turn Slobodan Milošević's fake outrage about it - they used it as a blatant technique to make the Serbs look like the perpetual victims, while at the same time they orchestrated all sorts of nastiness in the breakup of Yugoslavia. The encyclopedic entry on the phenomenon and the phrase would be incomplete without the clear description of this issue. Also, as I said earlier, having the criticism section does not in any way invalidate the description of the legitimate applications of the phrase, such as those related to WWII. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 15:11, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by bobrayner

I agree with Joy's stance that the article has broader problems; it's a collection of Serb-nationalist talking points; any fragment that fits the Serb-victimhood trope is put on the page without context. The issue over the criticism section raised by Antidiskriminator seems to be highly selective; there are wider issues that need to be fixed. Same problem we had at Persecution of Serbs and other non-Albanians in Kosovo. bobrayner (talk) 21:47, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Anti-Serb sentiment discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Hi;

I've asked another regular to help me mediate in this matter, and until he agrees, this will be quite slow to kick off.

--The Historian (talk) 19:56, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Kfar Etzion massacre

– This request has been open for some time and must be reviewed.

Filed by Ykantor on 00:50, 3 September 2013 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Kfar Etzion massacre (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Ykantor (talk · contribs)
• nishidani (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Nishidani deleted my editing. the Diff page. The problems are:

• Is the term "After their surrender" correct?
• The first sentence should include important facts ( who attacked, where was it) and possibly exclude less important information (the date relatively to the independence declaration).

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

it is discussed in the talk page. We could not find a compromise.

How do you think we can help?

Hopefully, a volunteer will convince us to find a compromise.

Summary of dispute by nishidani

This is being discussed on the page. Generally ykantor's edit (a) rewrote this, which is, as anyone can see a source-adequate statement of the totally misleading lead that preceded it. Ykantor complains I cancelled his revision of my edit. Were I to complain, I would note he cancelled my edit, and did so rewriting a contentless garbled and tediously repetitive sentence to replace it. (b) he added a totally irrelevant and lengthy note clearly intended to contaminate a neutral description of the event with the insinuation that 'Arabs' were accustomed to massacring Jews. That didn't provide historic context, it implied this event was a behavioural problem in Arabs. This is all I will say here. One does not go to this page to complain about a dispute when the talk page is productively engaged in resolving the questions mentioned.Nishidani (talk) 08:02, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Kfar Etzion massacre discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Nishidani's version is much better than Ykantor's one. It provides the historical background, which is important in the context of controversial and dramatic events such the massacres of the 1948 war. Nishidani's version is also more detailled. Anyway, major problem is the behaviour of Ykantor who systematically adds "quotes" that tend to influence the neutral description of the events as well as the fact he systematically discusses each detail and complains when discussions don't go in the direction that he wants. He is in infraction with WP:POINT with his numerous requests and also by the way he intervenes on the different talk pages of wikipedia. Pluto2012 (talk) 10:08, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

TALK: Rupert Sheldrake

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Tumbleman on 17:43, 4 September 2013 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Talk:Rupert Sheldrake (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Tumbleman (talk · contribs) Vzaak (talk · contribs) Dispute overview I am in the process of editing a page on wikipedia that I believed to show bias. I engaged on the TALK section of the page and began to address a few issues, doing the best I can to maintain a NPOV and avoid WP NPA. One of the editors there, user Vzaak - apparently guards the page. User was very confrontational. I maintained etiquette and addressed their questions. When I addressed their questions within reason and apparently user had no further comment, user then began to accuse me of personal attacks, of which there were none. User then came to my talk page, discovered my identity and exposed my real name on wikipedia, a violation of WP. I tried to engage with them on their talk page and then I was given a warning on my page that I would be blocked. Keep in mind, I have hardly even begun to edit the page in question yet. This is, I believe, an attempt to bully me away from editing this page and I seek resolution. I am not sure what else to do. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I tried engaging with the user in our TALK pages and requested in the subject page that we all try to maintain an NPOV and edit without bias as much as possible. How do you think we can help? I need a third opinion here mainly because now I am being threatened from being blocked on the page in question, my identity has been outed, and I am not sure what else I can do but seek a reasonable third party. Summary of dispute by Vzaak Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. I don't think Tumbleman is serious per here. My responses have been measured and appropriate. Tumbleman continued making accusations against me and other editors despite many repeated requests for him to focus on content, not people. When these requests were rebuffed, I issued warnings on his talk page. The conversation at Talk:Rupert Sheldrake speaks for itself. Absurd, over-the-top silliness, matching his boasting descriptions of his Internet antics. If there is any doubt remaining after looking at that those discussions, please inform me. Otherwise I consider the matter closed. Vzaak (talk) 18:00, 4 September 2013 (UTC) Response to Summary of dispute re - Vzaak: Tumbleman Vzaak - an online project I did over 7 8 years ago is entirely irrelevant to my activities, anywhere, now, including wikipedia. Actually using these activities is a WP NPA. Adding my actual identity a clear violation and that is the clear line to draw in the sand for me. Plus this has nothing to do with the issue on the TALK page. The issue on the TALK page is not even an issue, I made my comments as to various reasons for edits you and others were suggesting. I even requested we work this out in our TALK pages. What you are doing here is akin to bullying. To resolve this - i request you immediately edit out my identity on our talk pages. In terms of everything else, we both just have to work on maintaining a NPOV. I think anyone can read the TALK page and determine if what I wrote was a personal attack or rather a response to your questions and my honest concerns of bias.The Tumbleman (talk) 18:11, 4 September 2013 (UTC) Second response by Vzaak Again, I believe this is an experiment by Tumbleman, "a character who spontaneously ‘shows’ up in a internet community and puts on certain antics" [3]. Among other things, he has claimed that the TED blog is a news organization and a reliable secondary source, and that quoting an author's own words is "horribly biased". It matches the behavior Tumbleman has boasted about on other websites. No personal details have been posted. Tumbleman has called himself Tumbleman, and has identified himself on WP here. He has further identified himself, in a manifestly obvious way, through his creation of a WP article on his own project. I'm not sure how much time I should devote to this DR, since the case is so clear cut. Vzaak (talk) 18:40, 4 September 2013 (UTC) Personal details have been posted by you and you actually post my real name - and clearly there is public record in my talk page. This is a strawman argument to bully me off the page from editing. Everything else you mention is your own personal idea and is simply not factually based just because you find an outdated link from 2004. To assume this is an 'experiment' because 8 years ago I was doing an online experiment and personal writing project that had absolutely nothing to do with Wikipedia is a personal attack. Who I am or why I am here is irrelevant, what is relevant is maintaining a WP NPOV which I believe the record on the talk page shows my true intention and I believe what your doing shows yours. This is completely unacceptable behavior for wiki editors. The Tumbleman (talk) 19:14, 4 September 2013 (UTC) TALK: Rupert Sheldrake discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Hi; I'm not going to take this discussion on full-time yet. According to what I've just read, it sounds like there is more a dispute over user conduct rather than article content. This theory is supported by the fact that User:Tumbleman doesn't know the policy on Wikipedia:SIGLINK (he splits the comments of another user by his own comments). Is this a good surmise, or do parties wish to present evidence to the contrary? --The Historian (talk) 18:43, 4 September 2013 (UTC) Correct, this DR is 100% about conduct. The SIGLINK thing is just a part of the silliness throughout. Vzaak (talk) 18:56, 4 September 2013 (UTC) Thank you for your assistance here The Historian. SIGLINK issues were entirely accidental and I apologized for them on the thread. This is not what this dispute is about. The issue is a dispute over conduct. Vzaak has posted my real identity in my page and is harassing me and threatening me that I will be blocked from editing. I have no other recourse but to address in mediation. Is this the wrong forum for conduct disputes? The Tumbleman (talk) 19:19, 4 September 2013 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

2Cellos nationality

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Eleassar on 09:42, 5 September 2013 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• 2Cellos (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Eleassar (talk · contribs)
• Odiriuss (talk · contribs)
• Helpbottt (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

This content dispute concerns the nationality of the music group 2Cellos. Whereas they are described as 'Croatian' at their homepage ([4]) and facebook page ([5]), secondary sources describe them as a Croatian-Slovenian duo.[6] The correct description has been extensively discussed at Talk:2Cellos, with the general consensus that the last description is more appropriate. As far as I understand, per WP:SECONDARY, interpretive claims like this one should be based and referenced to secondary sources. An independent review and opinion would be much appreciated.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

The discussion on the talk page, request for a third opinion.

How do you think we can help?

The provision of an independent view would be much appreciated.

Summary of dispute by Odiriuss

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

User Eleassar clearly doesn't understand what the function of primary and secondary sources is,therefore he doesn't understand that there is no content dispute since on their official pages it clearly states that they are Croatian. Secondary sources cannot be used to determine someones national identity,since it is only that persons choice and as already stated,it clearly says on their official page that it is Croatian. Furthermore,there was no general consensus on Eleassars description,that is an outright lie which can be easily checked by going over the talk page,the only one who insists on this description is Eleassar. With all that said,it is clear that there is no content dispute,only Eleassar claims there is due to his poor understanding of primary and secondary sources and his agenda,i have reported him for vandalising the page because that is precisely what he is doing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Odiriuss (talk • contribs) 09:55, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Forgot to say that there are at least ten times more secondary sources that clearly state they are Croatian, here are just a few : http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/12/ny-2cellos-fall-tour-idUSnPNNY46392+1e0+PRN20130712,http://www.artistdirect.com/entertainment-news/article/2cellos-to-release-in2ition-on-january-15/10362706, http://www.broadwayworld.com/bwwmusic/article/2CELLOS-to-Launch-First-North-American-Tour-in-April-20130319, http://www.calgaryherald.com/entertainment/music/Canadas+Ezrin+takes+unique+Croatian+2Cellos+under/8444073/story.html, http://www.robe.cz/news/article/2cellos-for-robe/, http://www.contactmusic.com/news/2cellos-classical-music-can-be-boring_3445942. Odiriuss (talk) 10:04, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Helpbottt

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

I have to agree with Odiriuss. This duo, is described as Croatian on every relevant site, except Slovenian ones. --Helpbottt (talk) 10:04, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

2Cellos nationality discussion

Hi there, I'm a volunteer here at DRN. Am I correct in saying the majority of the discussion is over a year old bar a few comments from 5 months ago or has discussion taken place recently in another location? If the former then why is this DRN being filed now? To me it seems the third opinion given by Number 57 was reasonable. Finally, when referring to the origin of the band itself, it was formed and developed in Croatia primarily so I'd refer to the band as Croatian, judging by the sources this is the view held by many. Putting Slovenian in the nationality also feels awkward and like its being forced in there. Personally I'd like to see more recent discussion on the talk page before taking this as a DRN but I'll let another volunteer weigh in on that before closing it. Cabe6403^{(Talk•Sign)} 10:23, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

The discussion that first took place was because on their official site and facebook page it did not clearly state the nationality of the duo,since then it has been changed to Croatian duo on both their official pages. Eleassar changed the article again yesterday citing some obscure secondary source from 2012 to prove his "case" without posting on the talk page,today i and Helpbottt changed it back and I reported him for vandalism since 99 % of all other secondary sources refer to them as Croatian,except the Slovenian ones. Odiriuss (talk) 10:30, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

We've tried to resolve the issue at the talk page, but to no avail, which meant that involvement of a wider community is needed. In regard to Odiriruss's opinion I somehow don't see how he has found out that there are 10 times as many sources stating the band is Croatian not Croatian-Slovenian. A description of the nationality of the band is also a matter not only of their personal choice (no explicit statement about this has been presented), but also of the perception by the environment where they're active. In any case, this is something that sources evidently disagree upon. Per WP:NPOV, we should report all significant opinions and not present any one of them as a fact. If the issue is contentious, we should report in the lead that opinions differ if at all. I therefore support the proposal by Number 57 to leave out the nationality from the lead as their backgrounds are well-described in the first section. This was already implemented by an anonymous user in January 2012,[7], but reverted by User:Scrosby85 a month later,[8] which is a shame. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 11:12, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Again,the issue on the talk page was because there was no information about their nationality on their OFFICIAL pages,i cannot stress that enough,now that it has been updated this shouldn't be an issue,only Eleassar is making it one. A simple google search clearly shows the state of secondary sources on this matter,there are virtually none that describe them as Eleassar would like them to be,thus there is no issue whatsoever besides in Eleassars imagination. Odiriuss (talk) 11:27, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

I will quote Odiriuss and then show below that he is wrong.

"What's funny is that you obviously have no idea what you are talking about... There at least ten times more secondary sources that confirm they are Croatian, here are just a few: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 Funny, ha? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Odiriuss (talk • contribs) 10:02, 5 September 2013 (UTC) "

The queries below will prove Odiriuss wrong and Eleassar right. The first query gives correct (advanced) Google search results for "Croatian duo", i.e. without the instances where "Croatian duo" is only a part of the full "Slovenian-Croatian duo" text, and combined with the search for the word "2cellos".
The second query will give you correct results for "Slovenian-Croatian duo" query, combined with the search for "2cellos". The number of hits are 323 and 1100, respectively.
Try for yourself.
Query #1: www.google.com/search?q="Croatian+duo"+2cellos+-"Slovenian-Croatian+duo"
Query #2: https://www.google.com/search?q="Croatian-Slovenian+duo"+2cellos. --DancingPhilosopher (talk) 11:38, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Are you serious? Google 2Cellos, or 2Cellos article,not duos and then tell me how many pages it takes to find Croatian-Slovenian?Odiriuss (talk) 11:43, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Just checked your links, there are barely 3 pages for Croatian-Slovenian, and 14 pages for Croatian even with you query DancingPhilosopher. That is pretty conclusive, thank you. Odiriuss (talk) 11:47, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

If you search "Croatian duo" 2cellos (https://www.google.hr/?gws_rd=cr&ei=83IoUqCYIs-Kswav0IDYCw#q=%22Croatian+duo%22+2cellos&start=250) you get 25 pages,if you search "Croatian-Slovenian duo" 2cellos (https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Croatian-Slovenian+duo%22+2cellos#q=%22Croatian-Slovenian+duo%22+2cellos&start=20) you get 2 full pages and 2 more entries,that is pretty conclusive. Odiriuss (talk) 11:58, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

In numbers, 246 that say Croatian compared to 22 that say Croatian-Slovenian, so i apologise, i was wrong, it's actually more then ten times. Odiriuss (talk) 12:01, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

• Hi, I'm one of the volunteers here at DRN. Two things tip the scales here quite clearly: the group self identifies as Croatian, and a majority of reliable sources do as well. It's not our place, nor the place of media outlets or otherwise to dictate the national identification of a person or group. Given the ratio, it'd be undue weight in my opinion to write Croatian-Slovenian. That'd be like saying "Princess Diana was murdered" - just because a handful take that view does not mean we should change it from the largely held one. Steven Zhang ^{Help resolve disputes!} 12:49, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, and also the google test doesn't carry any weight in these types of discussion other than as a quick rule of thumb Cabe6403^{(Talk•Sign)} 13:31, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you guys, when you look at it objectively, it's all pretty clear. Since both of you agree, i would like to ask you to close this discussion. Odiriuss (talk) 07:52, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Pokémon X and Y

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Ryulong on 19:18, 5 September 2013 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Pokémon X and Y (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Ryulong (talk · contribs)
• Wonchop (talk · contribs)
• Blake (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

As new information was released for this video game, I had been adding the English and Japanese language terms for new video game mechanics. In the last 24 hours, Wonchop removed all of the Japanese text multiple times. I approached him on his talk page requesting he not remove it at User talk:Wonchop#Bulbasaur, Charmander, and Squirtle, but he moved the discussion to the article talk page at Talk:Pokémon X and Y#Unneccessary Japanese and snarkily said he was tired of me talking to him (he was also snarky here). Blake commented on the talk page, and after WP:3O volunteers turned it down, he took it as meaning "2 vs 1 means we win" and added a message saying it was forbidden. WP:MOS-JA#Using Japanese in the article body supports my argument, but because I revealed I had been involved in the formation of WP:VG/JP (which I mistakenly thought had something relevant) he will not acknowledge the manual of style's statement, believing I had been involved in its formation as well and therefore cannot be used.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

A third opinion was sought by Wonchop, but because Blake had participated this negated the use. I also removed some, but not all, of the accompanying Japanese text but Wonchop does not want any of it, saying I am introducing a Japanese bias to the article, when it is an article about a Japanese subject.

How do you think we can help?

A third opinion was sought, and I have found that I cannot adequately communicate with Wonchop due to stubbornness on his side whenever I try to communicate with him. I have brought a communication problem with him here in the past and it somewhat helped.

Summary of dispute by Wonchop

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Ryulong has been overly defiant in this insistance of including Japanese where it is not neccessary, given that the game has already been supplied with official terminology, under the rather boastful assumption that 'it's a Japanese game, therefore it MUST have Japanese text everywhere'. Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Article guidelines#Non-English games states "For systems and games, English terms are preferred over non-English equivalents when the difference would either be confusing to the reader or unimportant within the context of the article." and despite his insistance that it is 'informational', it is mainly proven to be just noise as many of the things he demands remain translated are terms that are either just katakana or literal translations (eg. the translation of 'Mega Evolution' as 'Mega Shinka'). At the most, the article only needs Japanese translations for the game's title, the game's setting (unless it is mentioned in another linked article) and at a stretch, the Pokémon Bank and Pokémon Transporter apps, as they can be considered as seperate software. He has also been very defiant in some of the beneficial edits I have made, such as simplifying the Gameplay description to not focus heavily on specific Pokémon (since it'll become irrelevant when the game is released) and repetition. Ryulong's behaviour has been, to put it as nicely as I can, hypocritical, often accusing me of disrupting the article when he is clearly no better himself, if not worse.Wonchop (talk) 19:53, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Blake

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

While I agree with Wonchop's opinion of the content in the article, I disagree with the way that both parties are going about this. Ryulong mentions how stubborn Wonchop is being, but he is being equally as stubborn. An edit war takes two to participate, and as such, they are both responsible. He also mentions writing the guideline that he is enforcing, which makes his stance very sketchy, and while I don't mean to make any enemies, I just can't agree with the way that he is participating in this debate. Wonchop also brought some WP:OTHERSTUFF arguments which makes his points just as invalid as Ryulong's. I would have liked a third party editor to step in, but it would be best if they were knowledgeable about both video game articles and the Japanese manual of style, similar to Ryulong, but with less of an aggressive attitude. _Blake ^{(Talk·Edits)} 19:45, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Pokémon X and Y#Unnecessary Japanese discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Blake, I did not write the guideline I am enforcing.—Ryulong (琉竜) 19:50, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

I was referring to the WP:VG guidelines, which you admitted that you did help write, due to the project's incorrect guidelines in that area. I don't think I have bothered to check the JPMOS ones, so I can't say for certain whether they support your argument. For the record, my opinion is just that if the subject is only being discussed in passing, then the Japanese name is not necessary, while if it is something even as significant as a whole paragraph, then it could be permitted. _Blake ^{(Talk·Edits)} 19:56, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Also, may I note that Wonchop went ahead and wrote guidelines himself, so if you use those, use it with a grain of salt, knowing that he wrote them after this argument took place. _Blake ^{(Talk·Edits)} 20:00, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

I assure you those weren't added to spite Ryulong, but simply because there was no mention of Japanese text outside of game titles. I'm as big an anime fan as anybody, but I respect that an English Wikipedia needs to have a general focus on English, with Japanese only been used to explain things that English alone could not. Just because a game is developed in Japan doesn't mean that it should be filled with Japanese trivia when there are perfectly good English terms available. According to the article's history, the additions have been generally approved of.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Wonchop (talk • contribs)

Now that definitely does not have any sort of consensus and is equally as disruptive. I've reverted. Things like that should be brought up for discussion on the talk page.—Ryulong (琉竜) 20:34, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Also, just so I don't have to come back here for a while(need to focus on some college work for a bit), I think the winning solution would be to list these gameplay features under Gameplay of Pokémon, like is usually done, and the Japanese names can then be shown there, where they are being primarily discussed. This would free up the clutter in the article, while also being supported by the WP:MOS-JA guideline. _Blake ^{(Talk·Edits)} 20:05, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

I feel that this conflict involves illogical adherence to MOSJA, a community guideline, versus the wikiproject guideline of WP:VG/GL. The question of Japanese usage should be case by case where the careful wording of VG/GL should be taken over the more vague MOSJA. No wikiproject owns a page and since the two sides conflict, typically MOSJA would be preferred, but on its vagueness and the narrow case I'd defer to VG/GL specific reading of, " English terms are preferred over non-English equivalents when the difference would either be confusing to the reader or unimportant within the context of the article." The question that must be asked by both parties: "Why is it an improvement to use the English name and immediately follow it with a different Japanese name without addressing the name in context or referencing it again?" ChrisGualtieri (talk) 21:00, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. Ryulong thinks that just because "it can" means "it should", while Wonchop is trying to make it against guidelines to do it. Overall, it is a loose guideline, and generally allows for the fact that if it helps the article, it can be included under certain restrictions(once per term, and not if it links to an article with more information). The thing is, these names do not help the reader understand it at all unless they are able to read Japanese, which is a very very very small percentage of readers. As they don't help the average reader any, they should be used sparingly, which is what I have said. They should be used when the subject is the primary point of discussion, but not for every single term in the article. Further more, many of these terms can be thrown over to the full gameplay article, where it would be permissible to include the Japanese name. _Blake ^{(Talk·Edits)} 22:13, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Personally, I'd side with not mentioning terms that do not have an explicit and pressing need for Japanese reference when the term already has a concrete and definitive official English definition. A second question could be asked: "What is the purpose of mentioning the Japanese name when it will not be analyzed or repeated throughout the article?"ChrisGualtieri (talk) 22:43, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

It provides more real world context by showing that the Japanese version existed rather than WP:VG's apparent preference to believe that once a localization occurs no one needs to know anything about the Japanese release anymore. That was evident years ago when I helped introduce WP:VG/JP. And I remember that when Pokemon Black and White were finally announced in English, people began changing the Japanese names to the English ones in the sections about the build up to the Japanese release. Japanese text isn't intrusive. It gives the readers more information. It can't be confusing. No one's going to analyze any of these things in a serious manner other than the mechanics once it gets released so your argument holds for even providing any proper nouns.—Ryulong (琉竜) 06:02, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Outside opinion - Like Chris, I'd side with not including the japanese where there's no explicit need for them, especially when there's an official English term. At WP:MOS-JA#Japanese terms it says Give the romanization for any Japanese name or term written in kanji or kana by following the pattern. Things like "Mega Evolution" aren't romanizations of Japanese names. They are the English name for that aspect. Sentences like this: star-shaped Kalos Region (カロス地方 Karosu-chihō?), with Lumiose City (Miare City (ミアレシティ Miare Shiti?) in Japan) as its central city. are now more confusing with nested parenthesis. (Please note: I am not stating this in a capacity of a DRN volunteer, rather I am a WP:VG contributor and am commenting from an editor point of view) Cabe6403^{(Talk•Sign)} 08:06, 6 September 2013 (UTC)