Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Fram 2

Fram

Voice your opinion on this candidate (talk page) (47/14/2); Scheduled to end 11:49, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Nomination

Fram (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) –

Co-nomination by Iridescent: I've certainly had strong differences of opinion with Fram in the past, but despite that I have no hesitation nominating Fram nor in strongly supporting this RFA. While Wikipedia is generally and rightfully egalitarian in its approach to everything, if you're not familiar with the background here in this particular case you probably shouldn't comment (either in support or opposition) until you've at least skimmed the history at WP:FRAMBAN as this is an exceptional case.

At different and relatively recent times I've previously described Fram as arguably the best admin in Wikipedia's history and described his conduct as an atrocious mix of unnecessary overpersonalization, extreme defensiveness when challenged, lashing out at anyone he feels isn't sufficiently agreeing with him, and a general attitude that his opinions are invariably correct and it's his duty to bludgeon them through regardless of opposition, and I stand by both opinions. Fram has a genuine, and rare, talent for spotting the core of a problem, and an even rarer willingness to challenge problematic conduct without fear or favor, even when doing so means alleging misconduct on the part of people who are used to intimidating critics into silence. In the past Fram has also been arrogant, obnoxious, and unwilling to admit any alternative explanation for a given event than his preferred theory.

However, Fram was warned about his conduct in 2018, and since then the issues that caused concern have been virtually non-existent. Despite having literally hundreds of editors going through his contributions (initially looking for something to justify T&S's original ban of him, subsequently trying to find evidence for the arbcom case), nobody has managed to find anything untoward other than a couple of grumpy comments. Although Arbcom are unable to release exactly what the claimed evidence T&S used to support their ban was, they have confirmed that it was based entirely on on-wiki activity, and as such if there was anything problematic it would have come to light. As far as I can tell from what's either been officially made public or has slipped into public knowledge, none of the complaints was legitimate grounds for desysopping, at least one of the complaints was an outright and demonstrable lie, and there's a strong suggestion that Fram was blocked not for anything he did wrong, but for investigating too closely a small group of well-connected people engaged in inappropriate activities.

In light of all this, I believe Fram should have admin status restored for two different reasons. There's the procedural view, that since the entire set of circumstances that led to Fram losing admin status was illegitimate we should return to the status quo of 9 June, and if someone has genuine evidence of any kind of misconduct they should present it so a legitimate case can be held within Wikipedia's accepted processes. (If the reasons for not making the allegations public are legitimate, I assume it's safe to say that everyone involved is by now aware of where to find Special:EmailUser/Arbitration Committee.) I find that procedural argument convincing, but even if one discounts it completely I would still support Fram for admin at this time. The last significant conduct of any concern was more than a year ago—a lifetime in wiki-terms—and since then Fram has demonstrated consistently good judgment, often in very difficult circumstances, and has consistently worked in areas such as New Page Patrol where having access to the admin toolset would be useful. As such, even setting aside everything that happened in the last three months, this is a candidate to whom I would give a straightforward support based on their activity over the past year and a demonstrable use for the tools. ‑ Iridescent 22:11, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Co-nomination by Xeno: I’m not asking you to restore Fram’s administrator privileges in order to reverse what has been (to put it mildly) a rather unfortunate series of events, though that would be a sufficient reason also. I’m asking you to re-instate Fram because despite the treatment Fram has received at the hands of WMF/T&S, and subsequently, the Arbitration Committee, Fram still believes deeply in the project and is still committed to maintaining quality control in our product. No administrator is perfect and Fram is no exception. In the past Fram has been curt (sometimes even uncivil) with users they have dealt with administratively. So have I. So have any number of administrators. From Wikipedia:Administrators#Administrator conduct: “Occasional mistakes are entirely compatible with adminship; administrators are not expected to be perfect.” However, the committee wants us to accept, sight unseen, that Fram has engaged in “sustained or serious disruption of Wikipedia ... incompatible with the expectations and responsibilities of administrators, and [shown] consistent or egregious poor judgment.” (Ibid.) This is simply not borne out by the evidence presented. Fram has made mistakes. Fram has not always been the model of civility. However, Fram has committed to self-introspection and improving their mode of interactions with other editors and the evidence has shown progress in this goal. To refuse to reinstate Fram’s administrative privileges is to engage in punishment, not prevention, and this is not the Wikipedia way. We’ve already lost a significant percentage of our active administrators (and many have significantly curtailed their activity) resulting from the unprecedented actions that were taken against Fram. Let’s not lose another one. –xeno^talk 12:18, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Co-nomination by Chowbok: It's no secret that I'm doing this (my first admin nomination) because I feel a massive injustice has been done to Fram, and it needs to be undone as soon as possible. But I've also had time to look at Fram's contributions as an editor and decisions as an admin, and I must say that I would strongly support his/her getting the admin bit even if this unpleasantness had never happened. While there are some legitimate concerns about Fram's occasional sharp tongue, there's no doubt it my mind that he/she had greatly improved in this respect in the months before the ban, and, more importantly, will be on his/her best behavior going forward, knowing that his/her conduct will be scrutinized like no admin ever before. Being able to take a stand on principle that also unquestionably benefits the project is a win-win, and I strongly encourage everyone to vote to re-grant Fram the tools.—Chowbok ☠ 00:12, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Co-nomination by Lourdes: If this would have been a regular nomination statement, I might have started with showcasing Fram's Featured Lists or Good Article, or the fact that they've written more than a thousand articles, or that more than 62% of their 175,039 edits are to main space...and so on, so forth. But this is obviously not a regular nomination, leave alone a regular RfA. It's an RfA which I'm leading to support to take a stand. To be honest, and as Chowbok says, I too would have nominated Fram even if they'd not gone through the recent saga. I've known Fram for enough time to have had significant disagreements and agreements with them, to have my opinions on their actions and to have their opinions on my actions. And through all this, I've come to realise the value of their contributions. Fram is an absolute net positive, as an editor and as an administrator. They've made mistakes, and I have had no love lost for them in my interactions. But as xeno says above, Fram's been made to go through the shame of thrones with eyes blindfolded and hands tied. And irrespective of what the Foundation's response has been, if things have to be brought to square one by the community, it has to start here – where it's not just my stand or xeno's or Chowbok's, it's the stand of the community that has to prove this point to the powers-that-be... That we are not slaves to Big Brother, and we're ready to bite back when bitten. I consider Fram's RfA a cause I will not back down from; I hope the community joins me in this call for action and supports Fram's RfA. Lourdes 13:21, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Co-nomination by Fastily: Hey folks, I am pleased to co-nominate Fram for adminship. Fram been editing since 2005 (14 years!) and has amassed an amazing 189,000 (!) edits and 28,000 logged administrative actions during this time. As one of our most prolific, accomplished, and long-standing administrators, he has a lengthy history of cluefulness and dedication to the project. Fram has excellent knowledge of Wikipedia's policies/guidelines and he is exceptionally talented at sniffing out nonsense. This is clearly exemplified by his well-reasoned critical commentary throughout the project and extensive contributions to our XfD/PROD processes. In terms of content, Fram has created a massive 1,565 articles, with highlights such as Leuchtenberg Gallery, Antidotarium Nicolai, and La finta pazza. I'll keep my comments on the WMF/ArbCom decision brief, as my fellow co-nominators have already stated most of what I had planned to say. While Fram could have been more friendly in the way he interacted with others, considering how recent events have played out, I cannot possibly imagine an outcome where he has not both learned from mistakes and emerged a changed (and better) Wikipedian. That said, I think it is most important to emphasize the obvious benefits of returning the mop and bucket to Fram: his thorough policy knowledge, detective skills, willingness to speak up, and relentless dedication to the project equate to a net-positive of titanic proportions. Adminship is no big deal, so Why not empower Fram to continue serving and do what he does best to the benefit of the community. -FASTILY 07:14, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Candidate, please indicate acceptance of the nomination here: I gratefully accept. Required disclosures: I have never edited for pay. My only other account is User:EngFram (I may have created one or two throwaway accounts to check the impact of some software deployments for new editors: I don't recall the account names, and never used them contrary to the socking policy). Fram (talk) 06:19, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Questions for the candidate

Dear candidate, thank you for offering to serve Wikipedia as an administrator. Please answer these questions to provide guidance for participants:

1. What administrative work do you intend to take part in?

A: The same as before, i.e. mainly new page patrolling (for all new pages, including those by autopatrolled editors), copyvio checks, some handling of AN and ANI cases, checking new tools or software in general, which includes checking how these work for admins (e.g. we have had in the past some things where people could create pages on enwiki but no one could delete them), and checking DYKs on the Main Page to get rid of errors. My Adminstats show that over 12 years, I made some 28000 admin actions (which excludes things like editing through protection, necessary for main page maintenance), the vast majority of them deletions.

2. What are your best contributions to Wikipedia, and why?

A: Apart from my admin contributions, and keeping an eye on the articles on my watchlist, I try to continue creating content. While I have in the past written some GAs and contributed to some FAs, my main contributions are usually less well developed, just basic articles containing all necessary information. Some articles I'm proud of (ones I started or where I am a main contributor) are Exposition des primitifs flamands à Bruges, which recreates in word and image one of the most important art historical exhibitions ever; Leuchtenberg Gallery, a Featured List about a no longer existing early museum; Antidotarium Nicolai, an important medieval book about medicines; La finta pazza, a popular 17th century opera; some sporting biographies I started, like Nafissatou Thiam, Wout van Aert, Laurens Devos or Willy De Bruijn; Nazi art dealer Alois Miedl; or "firsts", like the first cookbook ever printed or the first dedicated photography exhibition in the world or the first printer in the Americas.

3. Have you been in any conflicts over editing in the past or have other users caused you stress? How have you dealt with it and how will you deal with it in the future?

A: Yes, there have been a number of conflicts. In February-March 2018, I got too confrontational, leading to legitimate complaints; I realized that I had unnecessarily antagonised people, and took care to take a more neutral, less personal approach in my adminning thereafter. I have also, as I explained in discussions during the ArbCom case, tried to take care not to be sole admin involved with prolonged or complicated cases, but to bring issues to admin noticeboards for further comments (see for example Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive299#Bach editing from June 2018), or to make sure that others have tried to solve problems or to warn editors about some issues as well. The "job" I do in new page patrolling or copyvio checking is a necessary one, and one that often leads to unhappy "customers", editors who are trying to (or in the case of paid editors usually pretending to) help enwiki, and who don't understand why their edits aren't welcomed no questions asked. But I'm not the only one doing this job by far, at enwiki we luckily have a large pool of editors trying to maintain some basic quality standards, and I have to let go of some problems sometimes and let others deal with it.

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You may ask optional questions below. There is a limit of two questions per editor. Multi-part questions disguised as one question, with the intention of evading the limit, are disallowed. Follow-up questions relevant to questions you have already asked are allowed.

Additional question from Cabayi

4. I'm concerned by this comment - "Fram preferred the option of going to a RfA than having to make a pledge to ArbCom to abide by Admincond". Will you abide by WP:ADMINCOND and WP:5P4? Cabayi (talk) 12:00, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

A: Yes, I will follow WP:ADMINCOND and WP:5P4. Fram (talk) 12:05, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Additional question from Barkeep49

5. I had considered asking this even before it became your first oppose, but after that decided I should. I noticed you accepted a lot of advice and guidance with your RfA. That's great we can all use that. How will you seek out guidance and advice as a sysop if this RfA is successful? Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 13:43, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

A: Depending on the situation, I will e.g. discuss longer with the editor involved before proceeding with blocks, AN discussions, ...; bring possibly controversial blocks to ANI (e.g. if I had raised the GorillaWarfare situation at ANI instead of blocking her, things would have looked a bit different and less drama would have followed); sometimes just sit back and see if others notice the same problems; and if I do get good faith feedback, listen to it. I do not promise that I won't make any more mistakes, but I do try to learn from the ones I did make and avoid repeating them. Fram (talk) 13:53, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Additional question fro Smallbones

6. You’ve been accused of harassing and intimidating people, e.g. you were briefly blocked on MediaWiki for “Intimidating behaviour/harassment” in 2014. [1] Many of the people you appear to be harassing are the elected representatives of the Wikipedia community.

Two former ArbCom members, BU Rob13 and Gamaliel, have said that you were a major factor in their quitting ArbCom.

Less than a year ago [2] you requested a case on ArbCom against the entire 2017 list of ArbCom members (the large majority still on the 2018 ArbCom), appears to be an obvious case of bludgeoning the process.

This year you wrote arbcom “Fuck ArbCom which doesn't even understand their own messages and again give themselves powers they don't have.… utter incompetence in many of its members …. Just crawl into a corner and shut up … don't try to rule enwiki as if you have the right and the competence to do so. Or collectively resign. But don't give us any more of this bullshit.”

Regarding your recent desysop you wrote about ArbCom “So it feels as if the only reason for a desysop is to appease the WMF, as if a 100-days ban and an admonishment isn't enough.” [3]. And criticized “arbs who made incomprehensible statements and refused to do anything about it when this was pointed out, arbs who made personal attacks.” [4]

Can you guarantee that you will not harass or intimidate other editors, especially our elected representatives, and will start accepting the findings and remedies of ArbCom?

Discussion

RfAs for this user:

• Requests for adminship/Fram
• Requests for adminship/Fram 2

• Links for Fram: Fram (talk · contribs · deleted · count · AfD · logs · block log · lu · rfar · spi)
• Edit summary usage for Fram can be found here.

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Please keep discussion constructive and civil. If you are unfamiliar with the nominee, please thoroughly review their contributions before commenting.

Support

1. I nominated last time, and have not come to regret this. (The ban&desysop was clearly wrong, and I resigned my admin bit for a while over this). What impresses me most about Fram is the willingness to point out problems in the editing of powerful and well-connected people. Fram's tone has sometimes been fairly direct, but uncivil only in rare moments of understandable frustration. —Kusma (t·c) 12:02, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
2. Fram's desysop was fatally flawed, and it is really important that it not be allowed to stand, regardless of whether I've had some problems with their approach in the past or not. I understand the nominators' comments about nominating them regardless of the poor desysop, but for me, addressing this is my primary motivation, sorry. I do actually have faith that Fram will accept the 5.3 gazillion units of feedback they've received over the last 3 months, and further adjust their way of interacting with people they think are in the wrong. If my faith is misplaced, I'll have no hesitation in seeking a legitimate ArbCom desysop for future unacceptable behavior, but I'm actually pretty confident that it won't be necessary. I have dozens more thoughts on the subject, but will do everyone (especially the crats, who have to read and digest all this) a favor and keep them to myself, since they do not directly address whether Fram should be resysopped or not. They should be. --Floquenbeam (talk) 11:57, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
3. I can list a long list of reasons for support, but as long as it is not necessary; I would keep my vote consise. —usernamekiran(talk) 11:59, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
4. Support Fram was a good admin previously, and will be a good one again. The WMF actions were totally out of order and should be fully rejected. Mr Ernie (talk) 12:03, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
5. I griped with myself about the details, and used some of the days leading up to this to observe Fram work and deal with criticism, and I'm firmly convinced Support is in order. I'm not going to get into the decision to desysop, even though that in and of itself would have compelled me to support on the moral imperative to not be a part of grave and unfair injustice. Luckily I don't have to. Even leaving FRAMGATE totally out of it I see a passionate, knowledgeable and skilled editor that would be a net benefit as administrator. Magisch ^{talk to me} 12:07, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
6. The WMF was 100% in the wrong to ban and desysop Fram in the first place. Fram should have got the bit back automatically and I regard the necessity for the RFA as actually a bit insulting. Reyk _YO! 12:08, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
7. Support - Welcome back. I see no reason for you to stay desysoped after all you've been through. - ZLEA _T\^C 12:11, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
8. Support I'm convinced that Fram should never have been banned, let alone desysopped. It's time to reinstate this editor to the status quo that existed before everything went sideways. Lepricavark (talk) 12:14, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
9. Support The ban and desysop were entirely unjustified. Fram deserves this back. Toa Nidhiki05 12:15, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
10. Support. As per co-nom (Iridescent). Treating this as a recall referendum for an editor who clearly has always used the tools to support the improvement of the content of the project. Loopy30 (talk) 12:16, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
11. Support Fram is a skilled editor who puts the admin tools to good use. And he watches the watchmen, which is a rare and valuable thing.[5] Haukur (talk) 12:17, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
12. Support because we're here to build an encyclopedia, not a social media site. While Fram is not always the most polite, they always have the goal of the project uppermost and have improved when concerns are brought to them. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:20, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
13. Support I am with Floquenbeam on this one. The most important item in the Arbcom case decision regarding Fram is FoF number 9: "There was no evidence of off-wiki misconduct in either the Office provided case materials, or the community provided evidence. Passed 9 to 0 at 19:16, 21 September 2019 (UTC)". That being the case, Fram's desysop should not have occurred and cannot be allowed to stand. It is a bedrock principle of Wikipedia that we should be judged in the open, in public, for our public on-wiki actions. Secret trials and star-chamber justice in cases of alleged on-wiki misconduct are unacceptable and intolerable. In conducting such a secret trial in this case the ArbCom abused its power and betrayed the community's trust. It is up to the community now to correct this breach. Oh, yeah, I also think that Fram has been a good and valuable admin and will continue to be so. Nsk92 (talk) 12:25, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
14. Absolute and unconditional Support. Even with the higher expectancy on admin standards, I have not seen any evidence that Fram's behaviour has even fallen below anything significantly lower than the highest standards under admins. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 12:30, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
15. Support: I do not like Fram, nor do I agree with their aggressive approach to adminship; the analogy using a police officer to explain their rational here ([6]) is what I think is fundamentally wrong with Fram’s mindset over the years. But nothing they have done up to this point would remotely warrants a desysop; there are far worse administrators that “falls below” WP:ADMINCOND on daily basis.
    This is not whataboutism; the desysop simply should not have happened. It was arbitrarily done without due process, but ArbCom was worried that straight resysop would be a endorsement of Fram’s incivility, which is downright silly; just say it isn’t, as Newyorkbrad has pointed out. Instead, ArbCom has chosen to treat Fram in a grossly unfair manner, something that this particular committee has done consistently to a number of different editors. Many of these committee members throughout the case consistently chosen to neither acknowledge direct pings nor queries, nor even making an effort to communicate with the community; these kind of behaviours should not be the one judging Fram’s conduct as an administrator.
    If anything positive has come out of that mess of a case, I would say that Fram has acknowledged the flaws in their temperament on Wikipedia, and is noticeably improving in my opinion. And that’s why I am supporting; we are not children, nobody needs to be pledging anything. Alex Shih (talk) 12:36, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
16. Strongest possible Support, per... well, pretty much everybody, really, but particularly co-nom (Iridescent), Floq, Reyk, Toa, Ealdgyth, NSK, Dirk, and Alex. rdfox 76 (talk) 12:37, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
17. (edit conflict) Support per everyone. Somehow unable to figure out how to reconcile 70 pages of alleged on-wiki public secret evidence with 0 bits of actual evidence being found when everyone was asked to go on a fishing expedition to dig up dirt in Fram's editing history. Κσυπ Cyp   12:41, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
18. Support My basic requirements are that an editor is competent and well-intentioned, unlikely to abuse the tools, and not a jerk. Fram is clearly competent and well-intentioned. I don’t believe Fram would intentionally abuse the tools. But Fram has often behaved like a jerk, and admins who behave like jerks are abusing the tools every time they act like a jerk to anyone who doesn’t have the same amount of power they have, and that includes other admins who aren’t as influential. Fram is clearly a super useful admin 99% of the time, but that 1% of the time they aren’t causes drama, wastes others’ time and energy, and likely has resulted in the loss of useful or potentially useful editors. That 1% has a disproportionate effect and cancels out way more than 1% of the good work Fram does. If this had been a fresh RfA, I’d have likely !voted oppose with a recommendation the candidate run again after a period of jerk-free behavior. But this whole mess is the fallout from bad decision-making by WMF, who neglected to get the community on board to make needed changes to an atmosphere that tolerated jerky behavior by influential admins. And it looks like Fram did take in feedback over the past year+ and has been behaving like a jerk a lot less. On balance I’ve decided to cross my fingers and treat it as a correction. I’m counting on you, Fram. Don’t abuse the tools by being a jerk admin. --valereee (talk) 12:42, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
19. Support I have not seen any evidence of tool misuse, and in fact, he is incredibly good at using the tools. Fram is very skilled finding copyright violations. Iridescent said it best, above. Fram is positive to have in the admin corps. Jip Orlando (talk) 12:47, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
20. Support. Shouldn't have been banned or desysopped in the first place. —Xezbeth (talk) 12:48, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
21. Even if I didn't think Fram was suitable for adminship at this time I'd support this RfA as a matter of principle - the WMF handling of FRAMBAN leaves a sour taste. As it happens, I do belive that Fram should be an admin, so count this as a double support. — sparklism ^hey! 12:50, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
22. Support. An out-of-process desysop from a toxic over-reach from the WMF should have been overturned. Let me be clear that the support is not a !vote against the WMF or ArbCom (although by Christ they both deserve so much more than that). If this had been a confirmation of Admin abilities pre April 2018 I would likely have opposed the retention of the bit (too black and white in viewpoint, too didactic in approach, etc). Since then, however, I do not see anything that deserves a desysop. In other words the conduct warning did what it was supposed to do and the subsequent removal was nothing more than a punitive and act by WMF, driven by a COI/insider politics, compounded by the mess at ArbCom. - SchroCat (talk) 12:53, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
23. Support Fram's best characteristic is his integrity when investigating things. I trust his judgment more than that of ArbCom, and certainly more than that of the WMF. --Pudeo (talk) 12:55, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
24. Support.--AhmadLX-(Wikiposta) 12:57, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
25. Support. If this goes to a crat chat, take that as a strong support (since that occasionally matters at crat chats). This RfA is going to be huge, and if I get started, I'll have a lot to say, so I'll just leave it there. - Dank (push to talk) 12:58, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
26. Support - Fram has done an awful lot of good work as an admin, and I would prefer to see them continue that work instead of being on the outside looking in. Yes, there have been some problems regarding temperament, but certainly not to the extent that a ban was justified, and Fram has worked hard, in my estimation, to improve. Overall, Fram as an admin is a net plus for the project. Beyond My Ken (talk) 12:58, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
27. Support No justice in WMF action (Fram not allowed to see any details of the complaint(s) against him). Given that ban has been overturned by ArbCom, so should the desysop have been. Murray Langton (talk) 12:59, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
28. Support - It is near miraculous that WMF stepped down to let ArbCom handle this case – simply because WMF members depicted themselves as having Jesus levels of infallibility, repeatedly. It is near miraculous that, having taken the case, ArbCom lifted the ban – albeit after more than a month had passed. It would have been equally miraculous if ArbCom decided to re-sysop, but alas two near miracles is as many as we will receive it seems. I've crossed paths with Fram several times, and have never once doubted their competence as an admin. That is enough for me to support. Mr rnddude (talk) 12:59, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
29. Support after careful consideration. Jonathunder (talk) 13:09, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
30. Support. I've been thinking a fair bit about what I'd say at this RfA, and I could have supported based on the desysop being out of process - and I think that's a fair reason. But I decided instead that I'd base my decision purely on whether or not I want Fram as an admin, and I do. Iridescent has described the situation very well and I agree with every word (and he's saved me from trying to say similar things myself). I know Fram has shown some very bad attitudes in the past, and if this had been the pre-2018 Fram running for RfA I'd be opposing and saying something like "Please adjust your behaviour towards others and try again in another year or so." The post-2018 Fram has been doing exactly that, and will, I hope, continue to do so. We've seen a handful of lapses, when the pompous and aggressive Fram of old has briefly resurfaced, but not enough to dissuade me from supporting. The events of the past couple of months really should have focused Fram on what we expect in the future, and the level of scrutiny we're likely to see from now should be, I think, a sufficient safeguard. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:13, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

    I'll just add that even through some of the worst examples of interpersonal behaviour, I'm firmly convinced that Fram's motivation has always been 100% honourable and aimed solely at protecting and improving the encyclopedia. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:15, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

31. Support The desysop was wrong, while I have disagreed strongly with Fram's behavior in the past, as Iri points out his behavior has improved to a point where I dont think is necessary to hold up his past as a stumbling block to resysopping. ^Thanks,L3X1 ◊distænt write◊ 13:14, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
32. Support ultimately it's about whether wikipedia is better off with Fram as an admin. Yes he can be brusque, but he is often right , and places the integrity of the 'pedia foremost. I have found him to be fair and not afraid to tackle issues with users that might be considered well-connected. I have disagreed with some of the approaches he has and values of entities such as DYK, but his criticisms are based on issues with fidelity and integrity of the 'pedia. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:14, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
33. Support on general principles. Is Fram the most polite? No. Does Fram take criticism onboard and modify their behaviour accordingly? Yes. They were railroaded by a borderline incompetent editor with a clear COI and connections at high levels within the WMF. ARBCOM failed to find any reason to desysop (and had previously declined cases regarding Fram which included...checks notes...all of the 'evidence' provided in the recent case), and yet for some reason didn't reinstate a user permission which had been removed solely as either a standard when banning an admin, or as an extra twist of the knife. There is quite simply no logical reason for Fram to not have the bit. Sebthepleb (talk) 13:15, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
34. Support. Fram is a good administrator who handles a tough job. Not perfect, but improving in light of feedback. We need admins willing to make tough calls and tackle problem users. The goal of this project is to create an encyclopedia, not a social media community where everyone is perfectly nice to one another. If the worse that can be said about Fram is that he has been too tough in defending the integrity of our content and policies, then I think he deserves to continue as an administrator. As an aside, my support is also intended and should be interpreted as a demonstration of my lack of confidence in the actions of T&S and the arbitrators who voted in favour of desysoping Fram. WJBscribe (talk) 13:15, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
35. Support - Per Iri. ∯WBG^converse 13:20, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

    Also, wot 28Bytes says. Gamaliel may choose to self-reflect after being caught hands-down on his blatant lies at the Signpost piece. ∯WBG^converse 14:23, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

36. Support. The legitimacy of Fram's de-adminship in the first place is extremely debatable; unless ArbCom can produce a reason to desysop, it should be restored. Yunshui ^雲_水 13:22, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
37. Support Fram has consistently done good work to uphold quality standards on this project. That work is aided by the admin toolkit. Procedurally, the de-sysop action should be undone to reset things to the status quo as of June 9. There are valid concerns about Fram's temperament and personality, and Fram should be observed closely moving forward, and if those concerns re-manifest themselves, should be dealt with at that time. ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)}problem solving 13:23, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
38. Support - They have learned over the last few years how to better interact with people. There are still occasions where its less than optimal but that goes for many other editors too. They are one of the few that are willing to tackle complex problems head on. spryde | talk 13:29, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
39. Support If you factor out the WMF’s shameful conduct, or Arbcoms evidence free desysop you’re left with the fact that Fram is on the short list of admins worth their salt. You want more Frams not less if the goal is building an encyclopedia. Cube lurker (talk) 13:42, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
40. Support – WP:FRAMBAN was an utter clusterfuck, pardon the expression, and I'd support Fram merely based on that; furthermore, ensuing discussions at FRAMBAN and ARBCOM did not uncover any misconduct to warrant the removal of Fram's tools. All the best Fram! —MelbourneStar☆^talk 13:46, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
41. Support - Has been doing a decent job with the tools, will continue to do so. - MrOllie (talk) 13:49, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
42. Support without hesitation. Zero justification for the manner in which Fram was treated, zero justification for a desysop. Of course protecting the integrity of Wikipedia rattles cages, and I'm sure Fram has learnt from that feedback. Absolute net positive for maintaining a high quality encyclopedia. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:56, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
43. Support per nominators' statements, many of the above editors' rationales, and the restrained response Fram has offered to the endless harassment and abuse directed at him by long-term abusers such as User:Gamaliel. I hope no editor is again subjected to the kind of "anonymous" defamatory and hateful smears published in the Signpost (which have since been deleted on BLP grounds) that Fram has had to endure. 28bytes (talk) 14:13, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
44. Support. I followed the recent ArbCom case in which the Arbitration Committee unanimously overturned the WMF's one-year ban of Fram from EnWP, but a majority of the arbitrators declined to restore his adminship. I do not approve of the hard time that some people have given those arbitrators; they clearly thought their votes were well-justified, even in the face of substantial community pushback on the PD talkpage and elsewhere. But the ArbCom decision also emphasized that all the evidence before them, both public and non-public, was based entirely on Fram's behavior on-wiki, not on any off-wiki matters. Fram's edits, particularly in 2018-2019, have been pored over in great detail by this point, and while they reflect some flawed behavior, I find nothing in them that should have risen to the level of desysopping. It therefore follows that my !vote is to restore Fram's adminship. I take Fram at his word that he will remain mindful of the feedback he has received over the past few months. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:26, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
45. SupportIridescent's judgement over and above any in the'Oppose' section,none of whom make convincing arguments againstthe restoration of the status quo ante bellum. ——SerialNumber54129 14:28, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
46. Support per Iridescent and Fram's answers to Q3 and Q5. Double sharp (talk) 14:29, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
47. Support as the desyop was out of process and Fram seems a tough but fair admin to me,Atlantic306 (talk) 14:39, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose – at this time. Let me begin by saying I have considered none of the allegations relating to your recent case involving WMF and a cast of hundreds. I have read it and commented only a few times here and there.
   I am pleased to see that you accepted a considerable amount of advice in the preparation of your RFA. In particular Q3 and deciding against turning your request into an extension of the drama crusade against WMF/T&S. That, at least, demonstrates a willingness to accept and receive advice. There is no doubt that the hostile diatribe in your earlier draft was an error of judgement. But admins. do not usually get the chance to collaborate on their responses & decisions and I fear that if the Admin. rights are returned, you will resort to the behaviour pattern which would see an ordinary editor referred to AN/I. You are indeed a curious special case. I do doubt you can change your ways (despite the effusive nomination statements to the contrary) or moderate your approach so that editors do not “feel” intimidated by the force, weight and repetition of the arguments you advocate. But I accept that I might be wrong and to that end I think a few months of post drama work might have provided the proof. Instead, you had this drafted even before the AC case was closed, again demonstrating your impetuous nature. I think you have not yet distinguished between the valid concerns about your treatment by others (WMF, Arbcom) and the justifiable concerns about your treatment towards others (identified in Q3 and some of your nominator’s remarks). In fact your dismissive treatment of an editor within the last 24 hours on your talk page indicates your current inability to tolerate challenge. Finally, your voluminous nomination statements look like an attempt at a coronation. Shows bad judgement. Leaky caldron (talk) 12:17, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
2. Oppose - Temperamentally unsuited to be an administrator. Arbcom may have got to the result in a convoluted manner, but they got to a correct result nevertheless. If Fram wants to pour on a 1,680 word nomination to make it seem like All Righteous Thinkers support him, please bear with me for an equally wordy response of why this person should not have power tools ever again: (1) Response to the bad block of GorillaWarfare. I'm sure others will explain why it was a block that never should have been made. It was terrible. Shit happens. What doesn't need to happen, however, is having administrators with such an apparent superiority complex as THIS. When Fuzheado undid his clearly and egregiously bad block, Fram huffed up a bogus requirement that "unblocking shouldn't be done before consulting the blocking administrator... Please reinstate the block and take it to a noticeboard instead." Failure to admin error, failure to even consider the possibility that a dubious block for reasons that only a tortured and "original" interpretation of Wikipedia:Blocking policy would justify, is exactly what we do not want to see in an administrator. I'm not the only one who sees this. A few days ago, HERE is advice Geo Swan} gave Fram, pointing out his user talk: "Your record seems to show you have a great deal of trouble (1) considering the possibility you may have made a mistake; (2) you seem to have a great deal of trouble with showing respect to people who disagree with you." It took Fram an entire four minutes to to contemplate this sage observation before vanishing it from the page with the edit note: "unwanted advice." Well, my friend, you should want that advice, because it is exactly right. //// (more to follow) Carrite (talk) 12:23, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
3. Oppose This !vote is not based whatsoever on anything other than my usual concerns. At AfD, the !votes are over 90% for delete, and about 20% of the time, the result is "not delete". The batting average is below the standards I consider reasonable. And I fear that other arguments made relating to past events are unimportant. Collect (talk) 12:49, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
4. Strong Oppose - It's about the tools and lapses of civility that has been ongoing for years. Fram's style and temperament have left a track record of his hounding multiple editors. This has not happened in a vacuum: see WP:FANCLUB, and refer to the drama that unfolded on Jimbo's talk page over the summer. The subsequent Arbcom case that vacated Fram's ban imposed by Wikimedia Foundation's Trust and Safety (T&S) team, concurred that "the case materials falls below the standards expected for an administrator". Arbcom did not automatically restore his tools, but drop-kicked the ball to RFA.1
   Years ago, I had crossed paths with a good-faith editor whose perceived skill level by Fram led him to launch an unsuccessful attempt to get the editor permanently banned/blocked. That editor is now alleged to be the subject of this year's drama that led to the removal of Fram's tools. During the drama, others "outed" that editor's online identity and private life, leading to the outed editor opting for their right to WP:VANISH. This sends a troubling message that Fram was still targeting this individual, only halted by a T&S intervention.
   How many other editors have dealt repeatedly with Fram hounding them, and for how long? When Fram reverts/deletes/goes after another editor's work, I am not convinced he's always backed by policy. But he's had the tools, so it's his way or the highway. I know of other editors who have been his focus of repeated hounding, but considering the careless "outing" by in-house loose lips, I prefer Fram's other targets "out" themselves if they feel so led. This RFA, and my opposition, is about Fram's temperament and how he has used the tools. — Maile (talk) 13:05, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
5. Oppose - the behaviour displayed over the years by Fram is clearly not up to the standard we should expect from administrators. -- Ajraddatz (talk) 13:11, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
6. Oppose While I support the community pushing back against the WMF process, I can tell you from personal experience that that the "good work" of this candidate caused me significant harm over the years, and not just "on-wiki" harm. They have never stopped finding fault with my work, rarely if ever apologised or even acknowledged being wrong. They have pushed for my indefinite banning for over a decade, and succeeded in getting a year block over one edit to one article which I created.
   While in the early stages of the Arbitration case there were statements about "trying to do better" Fram has not changed his approach. He has deleted advice on how to work collegially from his talk page with the dismissive edit summary "Advice not wanted", and on Meta he is decrying ArbCom as puppets of the WMF. Once again Fram is right, and anyone who disagrees with him is wrong.
   All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 13:15, 26 September 2019 (UTC).
   

   May-be, provide links to the multiple community threads on you including an ArbCom case, for the sake of fairness? ∯WBG^converse 13:25, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

   Just as an aside, and as two people have brought it up now, that "advice" that Fram removed was a follow-up from an editor who had only an hour previously posted this less than collegial message. In the light of that, I can understand Fram reacting badly to the subsequent "advice". Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:27, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

   less than collegial message is a rather diplomatic way of saying "patronizing tirade". I'm staggered that anyone would think removing stuff like that from their own talk page would count against any RfA candidate. Reyk _YO! 13:36, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

   Jeez people aren't allowed to remove messages from their own talk page now?-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:31, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

7. Oppose Not going to write an essay here, because you will already have your views that aren't going to change, but ignoring the procedural irregularities of this whole debacle, I would not vote for anyone who arbcom have found to be involved in a pattern of borderline harassment, however valuable the rest of their work is for the project. ~~ OxonAlex - talk 13:18, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
8. Oppose Just like WP:DRV isn't WP:AFD round 2, RFA isn't RFAR round 2. In this request for adminship, we're not asking "was Fram treated unjustly?", we're asking "Given everything we know, should Fram be an admin?". For me, the answer to this question is No, per Carrite above. I was also taken aback by this proposal Fram made during the early FRAMBAN discussion that we not just go on protest strikes on his behalf, but actually mark WP:CSD#G12 and WP:CCI as historical. This clearly puts a dent in the defense that Fram's behaviour can be excused by his commitment to quality and the integrity of Wikipedia. Compare and contrast with The Rambling Man, for example, who has been blocked a few times because of his temper in pursuit of quality - throughout all his blocks he never relented in posting what he saw issues that needed to be fixed, instead of just giving up, or worse, ask people to actively disrupt Wikipedia in solidarity. I further find the incongruity between Fram's aversion to authority and his request to wield authority himself to be absurd. Last but not least, while the "Fuck Arbcom" comment keeps getting downplayed, the reason this was inherently toxic is that it is difficult to address the unacceptable tone of this outburst without risking immediately to be accused of wanting to silence a critic. Admins are supposed to lead by example, and this is not the kind of examples I'd like to see set for the rest of the editor community. Being a critic of Arbcom or the WMF doesn't require the bit. For all these reasons, Fram should not recover his bit, regardless of how flawed the process that led to its loss was. MLauba ^(Talk) 13:36, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
9. Oppose Per OxonAlex, and MLauba summarises my thoughts with the sentence "Admins are supposed to lead by example, and this is not the kind of examples I'd like to see set for the rest of the editor community". Sam Walton (talk) 13:49, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

   It might be apt to mention that you are on the pay-rolls of WMF. COI disclosure and all that, — Preceding unsigned comment added by Winged Blades of Godric (talk • contribs)

10. Strong Oppose. Fram is temperamentally unsuited to be an admin. His behavior harassing other users has been over the top. He can edit the encyclopedia without the administrator toolkit and because of his temperament and past abuses of the system, he should never be granted the ability to exercise such power. I’ll not go into details, as we all know the tale. Montanabw^(talk) 13:53, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
11. Oppose. It's interesting to look at previous versions of this RFA. The first edit summary reads "No discussion, no application of logic, no appeal to fairness or demand of actual evidence will change the position of those wanting to desysop". Yet the now-removed text is far from a logical discussion, but is a rabble rousing cry to send "a clear message to WMF and ArbCom". You've already sent that message and both the WMF and ArbCom have backed down; there's a clear victory for community governance. Now the message you need to send is not a rallying cry for a battle that's over, it's a message that you are indeed capable of competent community governance, and the way to do that is not to empower a long-term abuser just to spite perceived authority figures. If you want to believe that there no evidence for any of this, despite ample testimony of many and a 70 page report, then no discussion, no application of logic, no appeal to fairness will change your position. While I'm here, I would like to direct Fram's most infamous two word quote to ArbCom, who in a stunning display of moral cowardice has dropped this mess in our lap. Were there any justice in this world, all nine of them would be forced to live in the same house as Fram for an entire season of Big Brother. Gamaliel (talk) 13:54, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
12. I came to my conclusion separately, but I'm here per Maile, Maluba, Gamaliel. --Izno (talk) 14:05, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
13. Oppose - Even their supporters admit their behavior has been appalling and undermining of their own efforts to support them, where they themselves admit that they probably should have been blocked for their behavior. They are happy to shower ArbCom with praises when they think they're on their side. And when it becomes apparent they're not, ArbCom is a cabal of lies conspiring to undermine them (which by some observers could be construed as a personal attack). The best defense here seems to be that they've been doing a bit better lately, except they haven't really.
    The nomination wants us to believe that they care deeply about the project, while the evidence that I've seen is that they care first and foremost about being conspicuously correct, and making sure everyone knows it regardless of the consequences. As pointed out above by Montanabw, "caring about the project" went right out the window the moment it stood in between Fram and being vindictively right. The notion in #3 that they had a brief spat of incivility for two isolated months shows...what?...obliviousness? I get it, people get divorced, family members get sick, sometimes people have a rough go, but we just finished an ArbCom case where, even with time limits placed on evidence we have a novella's worth of incidents. So everything outside these two months is perfectly okay?
    There is simply no reality in which we would give access to the tools to any other user who has such a sustained record of toxicity, been dragged to noticeboards so often, desysoped by ArbCom for cause (in a case where there was unanimous agreement that their conduct was unbecoming, and the most significant debate was how rather than whether to desysop), is even remotely a candidate for being banned by the Foundation, and who continues to be toxic even as the community is debating the extent of their toxicity. The only thing that makes this different is that vocal parts of our community are itching to give the finger to the Foundation whatever it takes.
    So by all means cast a !vote to give the finger to the Foundation by restoring adminship to a toxic user, but heaven help you if you ever find yourself standing between Fram and conspicuous correctness, because they don't care about you, and they will grind you down in the same way they've spent years doing the same to others. Good luck. GMG^talk 14:19, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
14. Oppose. I have no doubt that Fram is well versed in policy, as well as capable and accurate in actions. I respect Fram for that and see their value. However, more is needed from an admin. WP:ADMINCOND states: “Administrators are expected to lead by example and to behave in a respectful, civil manner in their interactions with others.” I feel that to meet this, Admins must do two things in their communication. (1) Respond respectfully to others when correcting them, as this is more conducive to the person actually making a change. (2) Listen when others provide constructive feedback or correction, and try to see if any of it could apply. My personal impression is that Fram, while often right, does not meet either of these two points. If Fram was less blunt with others, it may give room for those corrected to really change instead of resisting. And if Fram could really consider feedback from others, without arguing that it does not apply, it would help Fram. I also feel the “lead by example” point is a key. How do we want new users to behave towards each other? They will follow the example our admins set. Would a new user see a comment by Fram and assume they can likewise correct others that way? Such a new user may then use the same tone as Fram, but without the logic or accuracy behind their statements that Fram has. Examples are powerful. We must think not only of the effect Fram’s communication has on others but the effect that the imitators of it will have. So for now, I must sadly oppose. Desertborn (talk) 14:33, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

• No, because of the last ArbCom elections, which they tried to tank (well, I didn't get in, so I guess they were successful). Somewhere in there they suggested I have students write for DYK so I can get "free reviews", which is pretty ridiculous. I went looking for the diff, but found it's oversighted. I ran into a couple more such edits of theirs on the same occasion, this ("Can you be even more despicable, Drmies? You unbanned a ******") and this (oversighted as "Potentially libelous/defamatory"), and now I'm kind of sick to my stomach. One wonders why they never sought to desysop me; they were eager enough to do that for other admins.

  I don't know what prompts a person to make those kinds of statements; I was fine with not running into this admin for the while. I didn't even submit this to ArbCom, though in hindsight I should have. I didn't even follow the case, in part because the whole episode was so embarrassing in so many ways, including the blatant abuse of process by the WMF, and so I never really got a good idea of what the alleged harassment was supposed to be--but that Fram is capable of saying horrible things is clear to me. The RfA is likely to pass, and as a certified sheep I will fall in line with the community, but if I live out my Wikipedia career without ever seeing them again that will be a good thing.

Neutral

1. Neutral. This feels like a WP:NOTYET situation since the dust surrounding WP:FRAM is still in the air. Steel1943 (talk) 12:37, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
2. Neutral for now. The tone of the nomination does not do it for me. I don't care what process someone has been through, however unfair; I care about whether them having the bit will be a net positive to the project. From my perspective, the nomination statements aren't doing Fram any favours. There seems to be a general acceptance that Fram has not lived up to the standards we expect of administrators in the past. But Fram himself really hits the mark for me in the answer to #3, which is what lands me here instead of opposing. I'll make up my mind over the coming week, but for now, I'm thinking about it. GoldenRing (talk) 13:52, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
   • @GoldenRing: It's interesting that you stated "The tone of the nomination does not do it for me." because I have similar thoughts, but came to the conclusion that opposing a candidate due to nomination statements would be in very poor taste, so I put myself here in "neutral". (I may state more under my comment any discussion can happen there, rather than a discussion tangent thread beginning on your comment/vote.) Steel1943 (talk) 14:16, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

General comments

• I have a general question for anyone who knows more about these processes that I do. Will or are the Bureaucrats likely to disregard !votes that mainly justify themselves upon the FRAMGATE series of events? It seems like this is the thrust of many people's stated rationale for supporting, and they omit other reasons they have for the sake of brevity. If these votes will indeed be disregarded, that should imo be stated in due time to give users time to flesh out their rationale in response Magisch ^{talk to me} 12:40, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

  Magischzwei, there is a thread on WP:BN roughly along the lines of the question you have. Maxim_(talk) 12:53, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

  Maxim, was there any Bureaucrat consensus outcome for how it'll be handled? I'm not sure how to read these discussions yet. Magisch ^{talk to me} 13:05, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

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• Question: Did anyone else not get the watchlist notice that this RfA is underway? I only was alerted that it had started by it being mentioned on WP:FRAM. rdfox 76 (talk) 12:39, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
  • ...Geez, that's technically WP:CANVASSING ... Well, that affects my vote. Steel1943 (talk) 12:42, 26 September 2019 (UTC) (Response to this was an (edit conflict).) Steel1943 (talk) 12:46, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

    • (edit conflict) @Rdfox 76: Where on WP:FRAM is/was the start of this RFA mentioned? I see discussion about proposing that another one start, but not a notification that this one started. Steel1943 (talk) 12:46, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

    Steel1943, The RFA and post-injunction discussion about the timing of it has been discussed on Fram's talk page for a while beforehand, it was there the co-noms were hashed out, and naturally, there was a confirmation there that the thing had indeed been put live out of courtesy of co-nominators. That seems only natural imo. As an aside, I actually did get the watchlist notice. The start of the RFA was mentioned here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Fram#Ready! Magisch ^{talk to me} 12:44, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

    • (edit conflict) @Magischzwei: Awesome for finding that ... considering that I found no such notification on WP:FRAM (meaning that the original message in this chain may be ... wrong), and a notification on a nominee's talk page is not WP:CANVASSING, so all may be good ... unless I'm still not seeing the notification on WP:FRAM. Steel1943 (talk) 12:50, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

    Steel1943 and Rdfox 76, as far as I can see, the start of the RfA was not mentioned on WP:FRAM, only on User talk:Fram. Fram (talk) 12:48, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Rdfox 76, yes, I am only here because I got the watchlist notice - I haven't seen it anywhere else. It has only just popped up, so it may be lagging a bit. - SchroCat (talk) 12:56, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

@Rdfox 76, SchroCat, and Steel1943: watchlists notices should be up now. Triggering the WL notice is a manual process for new RfA, by design - to prevent bothering people for non-starter type RfA's. They are normally triggered within half a day of the start of an RfA by updating a parameter at MediaWiki:Watchlist-messages. I updated that a little while ago. There are conditions where you will see it early (if your script times out, or if you never dismissed the prior one). This is the routine process, not anything special for this RfA. Hope that answers your questions on watchlists? — xaosflux ^Talk 13:21, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks Xaosflux, I didn't realise we had a 'lag by design', but I see why now. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 13:36, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

• @Xaosflux: My comments had nothing and never had anything to do with watchlist notifications, and my original concern about possible WP:CANVASSING may still be valid (though I believe Fram when they say no such comment was posted on WP:FRAM), so I really do not appreciate this thread being moved to the talk page with no reference to the thread being moved here posted on the main RFA page. (I mean, without Rdfox 76 saying otherwise at all yet, I have to assume that they believed to have seen a notification of some sort on the WP:FRAM page itself, even if I cannot find it myself and honestly think that such a notification doesn't exist.) Steel1943 (talk) 13:52, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

• @Steel1943: Point taken, moved this back to the general discussion. I think the watchlist specific questions are resolved now (They comes up from time to time on RfA's) - if there are any other WL specific questions, please ping me. — xaosflux ^Talk 14:16, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
• @Steel1943: It's mentioned at WP:FRAMSUM, perhaps that is where Rdfox76 saw it.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 14:28, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

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