Talk:Donald Trump

Current consensus

NOTE: It is recommended to link to this list in your edit summary when reverting, as:
[[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus|current consensus]] item [n]
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01. Use the official White House portrait as the infobox image. (Dec 2016, Jan 2017, Oct 2017, March 2020) (temporarily suspended by #19 following copyright issues on the inauguration portrait, enforced when an official public-domain portrait was released on 31 October 2017)

02. Show birthplace as "Queens, New York City, U.S." in the infobox. (Nov 2016, Oct 2018, Feb 2021) "New York City" de-linked. (September 2020)

03. Omit reference to county-level election statistics. (Dec 2016)

04. Superseded by #15

Lead phrasing of Trump "gaining a majority of the U.S. Electoral College" and "receiving a smaller share of the popular vote nationwide", without quoting numbers. (Nov 2016, Dec 2016) (Superseded by #15 since 11 February 2017)

05. Use Trump's annual net worth evaluation and matching ranking, from the Forbes list of billionaires, not from monthly or "live" estimates. (Oct 2016) In the lead section, just write: Forbes estimates his net worth to be [$x.x] billion. (July 2018, July 2018) Removed from the lead per #47.

06. Do not include allegations of sexual misconduct in the lead section. (June 2016, Feb 2018)

07. Superseded by #35

Include "Many of his public statements were controversial or false." in the lead. (Sep 2016, February 2017, wording shortened per April 2017, upheld with July 2018) (superseded by #35 since 18 February 2019)

08. Mention that Trump is the first president elected "without prior military or government service". (Dec 2016)

09. Include a link to Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2017) Include a link to an archive of Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2021)

10. Keep Barron Trump's name in the list of children and wikilink it, which redirects to his section in Family of Donald Trump per AfD consensus. (Jan 2017, Nov 2016)

11. Superseded by #17

The lead sentence is "Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American businessman, television personality, politician, and the 45th President of the United States." (Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Feb 2017) (superseded by #17 since 2 April 2017)

12. The article title is Donald Trump, not Donald J. Trump. (RM Jan 2017, RM June 2019)

13. Auto-archival is set for discussions with no comments for 14 days. Manual archival is allowed for (1) closed discussions, 24 hours after the closure, provided the closure has not been challenged, and (2) "answered" edit requests, 24 hours after the "answer", provided there has been no follow-on discussion after the "answer". (Jan 2017) (amended with respect to manual archiving, to better reflect common practice at this article) (Nov 2019)

14. Omit mention of Trump's alleged bathmophobia/fear of slopes. (Feb 2017)

15. Superseded by lead rewrite

Supersedes #4. There is no consensus to change the formulation of the paragraph which summarizes election results in the lead (starting with "Trump won the general election on November 8, 2016, …"). Accordingly the pre-RfC text (Diff 8 Jan 2017) has been restored, with minor adjustments to past tense (Diff 11 Feb 2018). No new changes should be applied without debate. (RfC Feb 2017, Jan 2017, Feb 2017, Feb 2017) In particular, there is no consensus to include any wording akin to "losing the popular vote". (RfC March 2017) (Superseded by local consensus on 26 May 2017 and lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017)

16. Superseded by lead rewrite

Do not mention Russian influence on the presidential election in the lead section. (RfC March 2017) (Superseded by lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017)

17. Superseded by #50

Supersedes #11. The lead paragraph is "Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is the 45th and current president of the United States. Before entering politics, he was a businessman and television personality." The hatnote is simply {{Other uses}}. (April 2017, RfC April 2017, April 2017, April 2017, April 2017, July 2017, Dec 2018) Amended by lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017 and removal of inauguration date on 4 July 2018. Lower-case "p" in "president" per Dec 2018 and MOS:JOBTITLES RfC Oct 2017. Wikilinks modified per April 2020. Wikilink modified again per July 2020. "45th" de-linked. (Jan 2021)

18. Superseded by #63

The "Alma mater" infobox entry shows "Wharton School (BS Econ.)", does not mention Fordham University. (April 2017, April 2017, Aug 2020, Dec 2020)

19. Obsolete

Following deletion of Trump's official White House portrait for copyright reasons on 2 June 2017, infobox image was replaced by File:Donald Trump Pentagon 2017.jpg. (June 2017 for replacement, June 2017, declined REFUND on 11 June 2017) (replaced by White House official public-domain portrait according to #1 since 31 Oct 2017)

20. Mention protests in the lead section with this exact wording: His election and policies have sparked numerous protests. (June 2017, May 2018) (Note: In February 2021, when he was no longer president, the verb tense was changed from "have sparked" to "sparked", without objection.)

21. Superseded by #39

Omit any opinions about Trump's psychology held by mental health academics or professionals who have not examined him. (July 2017, Aug 2017) (superseded by #36 on 18 June 2019, then by #39 since 20 Aug 2019)

22. Do not call Trump a "liar" in Wikipedia's voice. Falsehoods he uttered can be mentioned, while being mindful of calling them "lies", which implies malicious intent. (RfC Aug 2017)

23. Superseded by #52

The lead includes the following sentence: Trump ordered a travel ban on citizens from several Muslim-majority countries, citing security concerns; after legal challenges, the Supreme Court upheld the policy's third revision. (Aug 2017, Nov 2017, Dec 2017, Jan 2018, Jan 2018) Wording updated (July 2018) and again (Sep 2018).

24. Superseded by #30

Do not include allegations of racism in the lead. (Feb 2018) (superseded by #30 since 16 Aug 2018)

25. Do not add web archives to cited sources which are not dead. (Dec 2017, March 2018)

26. Do not include opinions by Michael Hayden and Michael Morell that Trump is a "useful fool […] manipulated by Moscow" or an "unwitting agent of the Russian Federation". (RfC April 2018)

27. State that Trump falsely claimed that Hillary Clinton started the Barack Obama birther rumors. (April 2018, June 2018)

28. Include, in the Wealth section, a sentence on Jonathan Greenberg's allegation that Trump deceived him in order to get on the Forbes 400 list. (June 2018, June 2018)

29. Include material about the Trump administration family separation policy in the article. (June 2018)

30. Supersedes #24. The lead includes: "Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist." (RfC Sep 2018, Oct 2018, RfC May 2019)

31. Do not mention Trump's office space donation to Jesse Jackson's Rainbow/Push Coalition in 1999. (Nov 2018)

32. Omit from the lead the fact that Trump is the first sitting U.S. president to meet with a North Korean supreme leader. (RfC July 2018, Nov 2018)

33. Do not mention "birtherism" in the lead section. (RfC Nov 2018)

34. Refer to Ivana Zelníčková as a Czech model, with a link to Czechs (people), not Czechoslovakia (country). (Jan 2019)

35. Superseded by #49

Supersedes #7. Include in the lead: Trump has made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. The statements have been documented by fact-checkers, and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics. (RfC Feb 2019)

36. Superseded by #39

Include one paragraph merged from Health of Donald Trump describing views about Trump's psychology expressed by public figures, media sources, and mental health professionals who have not examined him. (June 2019) (paragraph removed per RfC Aug 2019 yielding consensus #39)

37. Resolved: Content related to Trump's presidency should be limited to summary-level about things that are likely to have a lasting impact on his life and/or long-term presidential legacy. If something is borderline or debatable, the resolution does not apply. (June 2019)

38. Do not state in the lead that Trump is the wealthiest U.S. president ever. (RfC June 2019)

39. Supersedes #21 and #36. Do not include any paragraph regarding Trump's mental health or mental fitness for office. Do not bring up for discussion again until an announced formal diagnosis or WP:MEDRS-level sources are provided. This does not prevent inclusion of content about temperamental fitness for office. (RfC Aug 2019, July 2021)

40. Include, when discussing Trump's exercise or the lack thereof: He has called golfing his "primary form of exercise", although he usually does not walk the course. He considers exercise a waste of energy, because he believes the body is "like a battery, with a finite amount of energy" which is depleted by exercise. (RfC Aug 2019)

41. Omit book authorship (or lack thereof) from the lead section. (RfC Nov 2019)

42. House and Senate outcomes of the impeachment process are separated by a full stop. For example: He was impeached by the House on December 18, 2019, for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress. He was acquitted of both charges by the Senate on February 5, 2020. (Feb 2020)

43. The rules for edits to the lead are no different from those for edits below the lead. For edits that do not conflict with existing consensus: Prior consensus is NOT required. BOLD edits are allowed, subject to normal BRD process. The mere fact that an edit has not been discussed is not a valid reason to revert it. (March 2020)

44. The lead section should mention North Korea, focusing on Trump's meetings with Kim and some degree of clarification that they haven't produced clear results. (RfC May 2020)

45. Superseded by #48

There is no consensus to mention the COVID-19 pandemic in the lead section. (RfC May 2020, July 2020) (Superseded by RfC Aug 2020)

46. Use the caption "Official portrait, 2017" for the infobox image. (Aug 2020, Jan 2021)

47. Do not mention Trump's net worth or Forbes ranking (or equivalents from other publications) in the lead, nor in the infobox. (Sep 2020)

48. Supersedes #45. Trump's reaction to the COVID-19 pandemic should be mentioned in the lead section. There is no consensus on specific wording, but the status quo is Trump reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic; he minimized the threat, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, and promoted false information about unproven treatments and the availability of testing. (Oct 2020, RfC Aug 2020)

49. Supersedes #35. Include in lead: Trump has made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politics. (Dec 2020)

50. Supersedes #17. The lead sentence is: Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician, media personality, and businessman who served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. (March 2021), amended (July 2021), inclusion of politician (RfC September 2021)

51. Include in the lead that many of Trump's comments and actions have been characterized as misogynistic. (Aug 2021 and Sep 2021)

52. Supersedes #23. The lead should contain a summary of Trump's actions on immigration, including the Muslim travel ban (cf. item 23), the wall, and the family separation policy. (September 2021)

53. The lead should mention that Trump promotes conspiracy theories. (October 2021)

54. Include in the lead that, quote, Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in U.S. history. (October 2021)

55. Regarding Trump's comments on the 2017 far-right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, do not wiki-link "Trump's comments" in this manner. (RfC December 2021)

56. Retain the content that Trump never confronted Putin over its alleged bounties against American soldiers in Afghanistan but add context. Current wording can be altered or contextualized; no consensus was achieved on alternate wordings. (RfC November 2021) Trump's expressions of doubt regarding the Russian Bounties Program should be included in some capacity, though there there is no consensus on a specific way to characterize these expressed doubts. (RfC March 2022)

57. Do not mention in the lead Gallup polling that states Trump's the only president to never reach 50% approval rating. (RfC January 2022)

58. Use inline citations in the lead for the more contentious and controversial statements. Editors should further discuss which sentences would benefit from having inline citations. (RfC May 2022, discussion on what to cite May 2022)

59. Do not label or categorize Trump as a far-right politician. (RfC August 2022)

60. Insert the links described in the RfC January 2023.

61. When a thread is started with a general assertion that the article is biased for or against Trump (i.e., without a specific, policy-based suggestion for a change to the article), it is to be handled as follows:

1. Reply briefly with a link to Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias.
2. Close the thread using {{archive top}} and {{archive bottom}}, referring to this consensus item.
3. Wait at least 24 hours per current consensus #13.
4. Manually archive the thread.

This does not apply to posts that are clearly in bad faith, which are to be removed on sight. (May 2023)

62. The article's description of the five people who died during and subsequent to the January 6 Capitol attack should avoid a) mentioning the causes of death and b) an explicit mention of the Capitol Police Officer who died. (RfC July 2023)

63. Supersedes #18. The alma mater field of the infobox reads: "University of Pennsylvania (BS)". (September 2023)

64. Omit the {{Very long}} tag. (January 2024)

65. Mention the Abraham Accords in the article; no consensus was achieved on specific wordings. (RfC February 2024)

Preventing Animal Cruelty And Torture Act

This bill should be mentioned as it was heavily supported by the Trump Admin and made intentional acts of animal cruelty a federal crime.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/25/us/politics/trump-animal-cruelty-bill.html 2600:1002:B157:B56:4AD:FE6D:1629:32F7 (talk) 19:30, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure how biographically significant this is to put it in this article. It might better belong in Presidency of Donald Trump. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 19:38, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree with you. Can we add it? 2600:1002:B157:B56:4AD:FE6D:1629:32F7 (talk) 20:35, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

@OuroborosCobra there are plenty of other pieces of legislation mentioned in this article, i don't see how this particular act is any less "biographically significant" 2604:3D09:6A7F:82C0:3C2F:CFAE:2217:63CB (talk) 18:58, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

This is an argument for reducing what we have to only mile stone acts, those of great significance. Slatersteven (talk) 19:05, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

I just think it’s a cool fact about the presidency also a lot of people agree it has value and should be added. Especially animal activists, not only that but he signed it into law and this is supposed to be a summary of his presidency so it does at least belong in the presidency section. 2601:14E:80:46D0:1D1F:BF57:3C27:533C (talk) 02:08, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

@2600:1002:B157:B56:4AD:FE6D:1629:32F7

It certainly is relevant to the article on the Trump presidency, but it has very little to do with Donald Trump himself, since he has never owned any pets, either growing up or in adulthood, and reputedly hates personal pets, in particular dogs and cats. Since it's legislation signed into law, anything on this topic should be moved to the Trump presidency and removed from his personal article since it has very little to do with him personally. The inclusion of this topic here in this article makes a mockery of Wikipedia and what it is supposed to be. Stevenmitchell (talk) 19:29, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Whether someone “thinks” this is “cool” is entirely irrelevant as a criterion for inclusion. This is already a very long article, which makes it difficult enough to find important information. Padding the article further with trivial matters like this will only make things worse. TheScotch (talk) 13:24, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Rapist?

Should we add a comment that states that he is now officially recognized as a rapist, per the comments today from Judge Lewis Kaplan, who wrote that the trial evidence demonstrated Trump "raped" Carroll in the plain sense of the word? 76.102.148.6 (talk) 04:02, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

No. Not in Wikivoice, and any addition along those lines would need to be nuanced and explain the context. ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)}problem solving 04:13, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

See WP:LABEL. Trump has not even been charged, much less found guilty, in a criminal court for raping Carroll or anyone else. Furthermore, in the Carroll civil case, the jury found Trump not liable for raping Carroll. So, no, Trump absolutely should not be called a rapist in this article or anywhere else on Wikipedia. Iamreallygoodatcheckers ^talk 05:10, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Seems pretty clear. Yes. We'd do this if it were almost anyone else. Nfitz (talk) 04:45, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, right. There is a long-running dispute in categoriies about criminals, whether the inclusion should be based on historical data or criminal convictions alone. People recently suggested removing gangsters from the categories, because they had not been convicted in court cases. Dimadick (talk) 08:11, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

We wouldn't do it for anyone else because to begin with policy says we cannot state for a fact that he committed a rape. O. J. Simpson for example, who was acquitted but found civilly liable for killing his wife is not said to be officially recognized as a murderer. TFD (talk) 09:43, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

By that logic, we wouldn't call someone a murderer, who murdered someone but died (for example by suicide or shooting) before trial. Lee Harvey Oswald for example. One big difference with Trump and Simpson though. Simpson was charged with murder and acquitted; Trump was not charged with rape (the statue of limitations had passed), and therefore not acquitted. So there's no conflicting court rulings on the matter. Nfitz (talk) 06:40, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

There's a difference between Oswald and Trump: Oswald is dead, but our article on Trump has to comply with defamation law and with Wikipedia's policy on articles about living persons. Richard75 (talk) 17:41, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

This is true. On the basis of the presumption of innocence, Donald Trump has not been proven guilty of rape therefore by default he is innocent. We will probably never know truly what happened that day, but legally he is not a rapist. This is further backed up by article 11 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights stating, "Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence." He was prosecuted in trial and not found guilty. Considering he is an ex-president, and potential candidate for 2024, he is therefore a high-profile figure, and this could be classed as defamation on the basis of falsehood. It would therefore be inappropriate to label him as a rapist. Joecompan (talk) 22:13, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

That is not true on a number of fronts. He was legally found to be a rapist by a federal judge for purposes of defamation. The judge said as much. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights has nothing to do with law in America. 75.4.181.131 (talk) 12:07, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Source for the charge? He was found guilty sexual misconduct (not defending this) but not rape (somehow?). Despite all the evidence he was still not found guilty so therefore he cannot be labelled one. Joecompan (talk) 22:53, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

I haven’t found anything in the article about the E. Jean Carroll trial at all. If it’s there, it seems to be hidden. Surely the article should state that the trial took place and that Trump was found guilty of sexual abuse. I can’t see how that could possibly be controversial. TheScotch (talk) 13:25, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

This is the reason. (Preceded by this.) I suppose we could try again but, all things considered (especially current and upcoming felony charges), I'd recommend holding off until the appeal court's decision. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 13:40, 2 August 2023 (UTC). Preceded by this. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 14:05, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

That's silly and pathetic. The trial has been over for some time, and it was covered extensively by all mainstream news sources. Just report in this article that it took place and what the outcome was. if you wait for an appeal, you'll wait forever because Trump will never stop appealing. Complaining you don't know where in the article it should go is absolutely no excuse. It can go perfectly well in several places. It doesn't matter much where, but it absolutely HAS to be here somewhere. TheScotch (talk) 04:42, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

I've requested closure of the archived discussion at Wikipedia:Closure_requests#Talk:Donald_Trump/Archive_157#Multi-part_proposal_for_content_on_E._Jean_Carroll_v._Trump. starship.paint (exalt) 14:57, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Wording for low ranking by historians

I think the "one of the worst presidents by historians" part should be changed to "he is ranked poorly by historians, normally near the bottom ". It sounds less biased in my opinion TRJ2008 (talk) 00:44, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

@TRJ2008: Please don't use the edit request facility to start a discussion. Its purpose is for things that are unlikely to require discussion. Instead, use the "New section" link at the top of this page. I am converting this to a discussion by changing the heading and removing the edit request template. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:31, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

The current wording consistent with other US presidential articles. Warren G. Harding: "In historical rankings of the U.S. presidents during the decades after his term in office, Harding was often rated among the worst." James Buchanan: "Historians and scholars rank Buchanan as one of the worst presidents in American history." Franklin Pierce: "As a result of his support of the South, as well as failing to hold the Union together in time of strife, historians and scholars generally rank Pierce as one of the worst as well as least memorable U.S. presidents." Cessaune [talk] 05:45, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia's NPOV is dead buddy 43.241.144.234 (talk) 11:46, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Why, do any historians say he is not? Slatersteven (talk) 11:50, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

AryKun (talk) 11:55, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

i rather like to have this paragraph more precise: he is ranked as THE worst or second worst president, depending on the source / study / survey.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/01/trump-worst-president-history/617730/

https://www.usnews.com/news/special-reports/the-worst-presidents/articles/ranking-americas-worst-presidents

'one of the worst' is actually to kind. 84.115.227.133 (talk) 19:04, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

true Andre🚐 19:19, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

First paragraph should mention something about the investigations

The current first paragraph mentions his activities as a media personality and his business activities. In the last few years Trump has become better known for being at the centre of numerous investigations and criminal cases than his former career as a media personality nearly a decade ago. When the media has discussed Trump since he left the presidency, it has very often been related to the investigations of him. It would be reasonable to mention something about the criminal investigations that now engulf him. For example something like this: Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician, media personality, and businessman who served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. Since leaving the presidency he has been the subject of several criminal investigations. --Tataral (talk) 11:17, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

lets leave it until they go somewhere. Slatersteven (talk) 11:25, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

MOS:OPEN, WP:SUSPECT. If and when he is convicted of any of the charges we can discuss this, but for now we should keep them in chronological order in the last paragraph. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 12:36, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Quick question

Hey, I have a question: was the conensus list a novel idea first implemented on this page or was it adapted from another page? Thanks in advance. Cessaune [talk] 02:27, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

There might not be a quick answer.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:15, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

It appears to have been born in this edit, in Dec 2016, as part of the "top material" using the {{Consensus}} template, which is used in many other article talk pages. It then underwent a number of evolutionary changes that were unique to this page. At some point it became a section on the page, which (1) increased its visibility by adding it to the table of contents and (2) provided a target for section links on this page and in article edit summaries. Later, the section became a separate, transcluded page to allow for edit protection. ―Mandruss ☎ 08:47, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Reversing order of last two sentences in 2nd paragraph of lead

@FMSky: why?. You didn't provide an edit summary. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 10:54, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

yes i did https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&diff=prev&oldid=1168761241 , which you reverted without giving a reason --FMSky (talk) 10:55, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

My apology, I didn't notice that edit among the other edits to the lead. However, the sentence about suing and getting sued also applies to the "Apprentice". Trump wasn't just playing a part on the show, he was also involved in the business end (producer, promoting products as part of the show, etc.) and got sued at least a couple of times (Summer Zervos and this. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 11:04, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Ah ok, makes sense then --FMSky (talk) 11:06, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Names of presiding judges in the criminal cases

I was about to delete the sentence Judge Tanya S. Chutkan was assigned to the case with cite when I noticed that I had accidentally removed it in an earlier edit. The reason is the same as the mention of Judge Cannon that I removed just now, i.e., there will be at least six criminal cases with six judges, and at the moment their names don't seem relevant details for Trump’s top bio. We can add them if that changes. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 15:44, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Protective order for evidence

@Tataral: This "standard move" isn't as dramatic as your two sentences with seven cites and the sentence in the lead made it appear. The prosecutors at the special counsel's office and Trump's counsel will be filing more motions. That might have a place at Federal prosecution of Donald Trump (2020 election case) but not here. I haven't removed the sentence from the lead yet (3RR). WP:NOTNEWS and consensus #37 (summary-level) apply. Space4Time3Continuum2x ^(cowabunga) 20:07, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Is it significant? It has been very widely reported[1][2][3][4][5] by RS that the special counsel sought a protective order and cited Trump's threats. This is what Trump's own former spokeswoman had to say about the threats[6]. If those threats and the response to them are supposedly just a "standard move", then why is there widespread and global RS coverage and commentary on it? I seems to me that this clearly belongs here, in light of widespread RS coverage that indicates that it is a significant development. Threatening people in a legal case, particularly when federal prosecutors alert the federal court to the threats, seems like a big issue to me. --Tataral (talk) 20:37, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

The prosecutors asked the judge to issue a protective order to "ensure that sensitive materials are used by Trump's defense team for only the trial, and that the former president view the materials in the presence of his lawyers" — that's the routine request. They cited the all-caps post as evidence that such an order is necessary — that's unusual but then most defendants are smart enough to not post something that stupid. If the judge does issue the order, that will make the headlines on major and minor news sites, too. Space4Time3Continuum2x ^(cowabunga) 21:05, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Six business bankruptcies

I tried to find the word “bankrupt” at this talk page but couldn’t find it, so this edit summary by User:SPECIFICO doesn’t seem correct. Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:13, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

There was a discussion about this months ago that’s been archived. I suggested among other things: “keep bankruptcy figure but clarify it was business bankruptcies not personal bankruptcies”. The only response AFAIK was from User:SPECIFICO: “Also he didn't grow 4 arms. 4 personal bankruptcies, even for someone as old as Trump, would be difficult.” I still don’t understand this comment, I agree Trump does not have four arms, but I didn’t understand that comment as pertaining to inserting the word “business” before “bankruptcies” in the lead. Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:29, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

SPECIFICO, what's your grievance with saying "business bankruptcy"? Iamreallygoodatcheckers ^talk 07:17, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

I think User:SPECIFICO may have meant that it’s obvious from the present version of the lead that Trump didn’t have personal bankruptcies six times, since that would be an extremely unusual feat. But it’s not obvious from the present version of the lead that Trump didn’t have one or two personal bankruptcies, with the rest being business bankruptcies. Anythingyouwant (talk) 08:48, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

So much attention is making this old gal blush! Please follow ONUS and see whether you can gain support for your preferred word. SPECIFICO is not going in the article, so discussing her is barking up the wrong tree. SPECIFICO talk 11:50, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

WP:LEAD: the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents. We mention the Chapter 11 bankruptcies, with link to Chapter 11, Title 11, United States Code, in Donald_Trump#Real_estate, Donald_Trump#Manhattan_developments, and Donald_Trump#Atlantic_City_casinos which are already summary-level per consensus #37. It's the editor adding content who should have explained their reason in their edit summary. (The edit also added the Chapter 11 Wikilink that would need to be discussed per consensus #60, IMO.) So, why does the summary of the summary need the extra word and link? I actually looked at that Kudzu-esque archive and know that you wrote "clarify it was business bankruptcies not personal bankruptcies" but not why we should. "I bankrupted six of my businesses but managed to skirt personal bankruptcy" isn't really something to brag about. Space4Time3Continuum2x ^(cowabunga) 11:35, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Well, it's not to the level of "I didn't rape her, I just sexually assaulted her."--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:07, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Except for I didn't shoot the deputy, not much is. Space4Time3Continuum2x ^(cowabunga) 15:36, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

It’s well-known that there is stigma associated with bankruptcy, more so for personal bankruptcy than business bankruptcy:

• THORNE, Deborah and ANDERSON, Leon. “MANAGING THE STIGMA OF PERSONAL BANKRUPTCY”, Sociological Focus (May 2006).
• Athreya, Kartik. “Shame As It Ever Was: Stigma and Personal Bankruptcy”, FRB Richmond Economic Quarterly (2004).

Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:52, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Cherrypickin' courtesy of Google. SPECIFICO talk 19:30, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

If there’s no stigma attached to personal bankruptcy, then you should be able to find a reliable source that says so. I didn’t see any such sources. Anythingyouwant (talk) 01:06, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

One of your sources was published in 2004, the other one in 2006. The data both papers are based on is 20 years old or older. I haven't been able to find any newer sources, pro or contra — don't know what that indicates, general indifference to the subject? Space4Time3Continuum2x ^(cowabunga) 13:36, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

• The "business bankruptcy" revision is more precise and it only adds one more word and a wiki link to the lead. I support it. Iamreallygoodatcheckers ^talk 20:48, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
• Clarification isn't a bad thing. By all means add "business bankruptcy", to the sentence. GoodDay (talk) 20:50, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

  That is not the qadduestion we are disussing. And it's false. Adding excessive detail interrupts and dilutes the narrative. Consider all the adjectives that you could add before his name in the lead? If you care to support your view with relevant reasoning that addresses the stated objections, that would be helpful. SPECIFICO talk 21:08, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

  As the person who started this thread and who raised the question we’re discussing, I agree that clarification isn't a bad thing, and adding the word "business” before “bankruptcies” in the lead would be wise. Anythingyouwant (talk) 00:32, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

• I'm actually good with adding "business". Six business bankruptcies are quite the "discrediting predicament" such as poor financial performance, times six, per "Stigma of Bankruptcy: Spoiled Organizational Image and Its Management", another blast from the past (1987, four years before Trump's first bankruptcy). competent leaders are expected to exercise control over their organizations and that such control is expected to lead to organizational success, not to more than $1 billion in debt that the business can't pay interest on or repay. I'm opposed to add the link, per consensus #60 and MOS:OVERLINK. IMO business and bankrupty are "everyday words understood by most readers in context (e.g., education, violence, aircraft, river)". Space4Time3Continuum2x ^(cowabunga) 13:36, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

  If it's to be added, it should be stated it in proper English. "Business" is not an adjective. Six Trump businesses went bankrupt, six of his businesses filed for bankruptcy, or something. Were they all petitions filed by Trump? What were the circumstances? Were some forced by creditors? SPECIFICO talk 13:46, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

  Of course it’s an adjective. Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:43, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

  There's a lot of improper English going around — business hours, business environment, business jet, business class. Don't creditors and their pesky requests for payment of interest and principal usually "force" debtors to go to bankruptcy court? It's a summary, thousands of legal actions, including six trips to bankruptcy court. I'm good with "bankruptcy" and "business bankruptcy", prefer the shorter version but meh. Space4Time3Continuum2x ^(cowabunga) 14:53, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

  I still oppose "business bankruptcies" and prefer the status quo "bankruptcies". One cannot have 6 personal bankruptcies. It would be like having six appendectomies. I think the insertion of "business" is an awkard, unnecessary, and misleading dilution of the narrative. SPECIFICO talk 15:33, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

  One can have two personal bankruptcies and four business bankruptcies. Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:43, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Four editors have said they’re okay with inserting “business”, and have explained why, with one of them saying they’re also okay with leaving that word out. A fifth editor has opposed, but has not substantiated that the word “business” is unusable as an adjective (nor has explained why the current language already implies all six were business bankruptcies). So I plan to insert it later today without wikilink. Anythingyouwant (talk) 11:48, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

How about six of his businesses went bankrupt. Is that what you want want to be sure that our readers know? SPECIFICO talk 13:10, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

If we talk about Bankruptcies in the lead, then we should insert the word business to clarify that they are business bankruptcies. The word business is obviously an adjective, I gave you a link to the dictionary, as in business deals business arrangements business trips etc. etc. etc. etc. Anythingyouwant (talk) 14:47, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

That is not the issue I raised immediately above. I proposed a compromise that includes your "business" but makes it clear that it was Trump's businsesses that were forced into bankruptcy, not that he pursued others as plaintiff/creditor. I thought you would respond before you made the article edit. It will be evident to future generations of editors that "He and his businesses"..."Business bankruptcies" is redundant. Ciao. SPECIFICO talk 19:55, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

It is not redundant, because the word "business" excludes personal bankruptcy. We could add lots more modifers besides "business" but I think one is enough. Anythingyouwant (talk) 05:40, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

It is both settled and nonsense. Gratuitous detail that clutters the summary lead content and, contrary to your apparent belief, does not fully specify the meaning of the sentence. SPECIFICO talk 12:29, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Notification

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I have been asked, by way of a message on my talk page, to close Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 157#Multi-part proposal for content on E. Jean Carroll v. Trump. I have no objection to doing this, and if nobody else minds, then I'll proceed to do so. I'm not American, I've never set foot in the US, I don't follow US politics, and I think I'm neutral and uninvolved. But it's a little unusual for a discussion participant to choose their own closer, so it's right for me to give people on this talk page a chance to raise any concerns or objections they might have before I start doing all the required reading. If you'd like to check my previous closes for any hint of bias, you're welcome to review User:S Marshall/RfC close log. I intend to leave this note here for a few days, and I will recuse from closing on request from any good faith, established editor (by which I mean any editor who's autoconfirmed as of this timestamp and not under any admin-imposed sanctions).—S Marshall T/C 18:23, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

@S Marshall: Thank you for the notification. I would agree this is quite an unusual request, particularly because there is a request for closure and some dissent at the Requests for closure page. When heavily participated threads such as that one dissapate and are archived, we generally move on to other things. In this case, given the subsequent real world news related to the issue, I think that any renewed advocacy would most clearly be decided by a new discussion, proposal, and poll. (Not that I think it warrants such discussion. I was involved in the archived discussion.) SPECIFICO talk 18:37, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

@S Marshall: I believe a close would be helpful. This issue has come up some since it was discussed and is prime to become a chronic content dispute on this article without a formal consensus statement. Editors put a lot of effort into that discussion for it to just sum up to nothing. I have no concerns over you suitability as a closer here. Iamreallygoodatcheckers ^talk 18:48, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

One reason that it was inconclusive and therefore not closed is that it was poorly framed before the issue was narrowed down as it must be for successful and lasting RfC decisions. But at any rate, 3 months later there is new information and the passage of time, and it would not be correct to draw any conclusions without reopening the discussion -- which can be done in a narrowly framed new poll, if anybody cares to do so. SPECIFICO talk 19:53, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

"Unusual" — if I understand AirshipJungleman29's comment correctly, it is improper for Starship.paint as a participant in the discussion to select a closer. The discussion had stopped and was archived without objections, so I'm a bit surprised to learn that Starship requested a close a month after that. Space4Time3Continuum2x ^(cowabunga) 21:10, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

• AirshipJungleman29's saying that nobody should close the discussion. Although I haven't read the discussion we're talking about, I already know there's a good chance that I'll disagree with him. It's been my experience that most contested discussions in contentious topic areas benefit from a formal closing statement that summarizes what the community thinks.—S Marshall T/C 21:24, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

  It died a quiet death, just like so many other discussions that don't reach a consenus to do anything. Apparently, not to put words in their mouth, but I am guessing that Starship hopes that the close will favor insertion of the content. But as I've said, we have new developments. Yesterday a judge told Trump that in the ordinary meaning of the English word "rape", he did indeed rape her. I still think, however this is UNDUE for this page and inclusion of more detail will require even more detail to properly contextualize it. But that's what the trial's own page is for. So there cannot be any conclusive close of this three month old thread. If Starship wishes to pursue inclusion of this content, the best course would be to workshop a new RfC framing and launch a new more clearly defined RfC now. SPECIFICO talk 22:38, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

• The closure request had been sitting for nearly a month, Space4Time3Continuum2x, and it was being marked as not done. I hope that you can see why I requested a closure from an experienced closer, and I thank S Marshall for their consideration. SPECIFICO, my main concern is that I want a proper close for the discussion in which many editors participated. At least everyone’s efforts would have not come to nothing. The close may go against me, or it may not; if my proposal is accepted, that is merely a bonus. starship.paint (exalt) 00:59, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

• proper close: don’t you mean "formal"? Looks to me as though everyone involved decided to WP:DISENGAGE and live with the status quo ante, preferring no mention to "the wrong one". I kind of assume that during the month the closure request was open a number of potential closers took a look at the discussion and said "not with a ten-foot pole". By that time, the discussion had been closed for over 7 weeks and buried (archived) for 5 weeks.

Following up on Specifico’s edit, since the discussion stopped on May 17 Trump hasn’t just appealed the judgment (still pending), he also requested a new trial on damages or grant remittitur because contrary to Plaintiff's claim of rape, the Jury found that she was not raped but was sexually abused by Defendant". The judge denied the request and clarified the judgment. "Instead," the judge wrote, "the proof convincingly established, and the jury implicitly found, that Mr. Trump deliberately and forcibly penetrated Ms. Carroll's vagina with his fingers, causing immediate pain and long lasting emotional and psychological harm. Mr. Trump's argument therefore ignores the bulk of the evidence at trial, misinterprets the jury's verdict, and mistakenly focuses on the New York Penal Law definition of 'rape' to the exclusion of the meaning of that word as it often is used in everyday life and of the evidence of what actually occurred between Ms. Carroll and Mr. Trump," the ruling said. In the meantime, we’ve added the section Federal and state criminal cases against Trump and in January, at the latest, will probably add a section on the civil cases (at least three I know of, Carroll II and ACN scheduled for January, NY tax case unknown date), so I personally wouldn’t want to pet-sematary the discussion that stopped almost 3 months ago. Space4Time3Continuum2x ^(cowabunga) 11:34, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

• As of yet, I don't see a request that I recuse. I'll start the reading later today. That will take a few days because I'll read it three times: once from top to bottom, and then once from diff to diff, so I know I've followed both sequences and fully grasped all the arguments presented, and then at least one more time taking notes and checking the policy wordings. If, in the meantime, an autoconfirmed editor who's not under any sanctions asks me to recuse, then I will stop reading and recuse.—S Marshall T/C 15:23, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

  OK, please recuse. SPECIFICO talk 16:11, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

  I think you might be under sanctions?—S Marshall T/C 16:33, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

  That’s right per WP:AEDR there are two sanctions. starship.paint (exalt) 01:13, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

  Starship.paint, is there a rule that says editors can’t be under sanctions when asking for recusal? Didn't know that page existed — life sentences, no parole? 2014, Austrian economics and interaction at GGTF (what does that acronym stand for - not listed here or here). Space4Time3Continuum2x ^(cowabunga) 11:21, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

  GGTF is the Gender Gap Task Force.—S Marshall T/C 17:37, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

  That's what S Marshall asked for. Why are you asking me? starship.paint (exalt) 13:38, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

  My apology. I was under the mistaken impression that you supported the view that sanctioned editors can't request recusal. Space4Time3Continuum2x ^(cowabunga) 13:51, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

  is there a rule that says editors can’t be under sanctions when asking for recusal? Space4Time3Continuum2x ^(cowabunga) 13:47, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

  I think you've missed the point. I do not think there is a rule, but there isn't any need for there to be a rule. There's no need for S Marshall to recuse even if unsanctioned editors request it, but this is probably something S Marshall came up with as a principle for recusal. Even though it seems arbitrary, it can still be respected. starship.paint (exalt) 14:07, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

• Please, recuse. Partially quoting this edit on Wikipedia:Closure_requests: The last comment was three months ago, the discussion is already four archive pages deep. The discussion is out of date, IMO - see my earlier edit. Space4Time3Continuum2x ^(cowabunga) 11:25, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

  @Space4Time3Continuum2x: - very disappointed. Your rationale shows that there is no conflict of interest for S Marshall to recuse. You just don't think the discussion should be closed. I thought better of you. starship.paint (exalt) 13:38, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

  Sorry I disappointed you but I think that discussion is closed. If anyone goes BOLD and adds the lawsuit to the article, well, WP:BRDB. Clarifying, that wasn't meant as a challenge, dare, or threat. Since there's no consensus, WP:BRDB applies. Space4Time3Continuum2x ^(cowabunga) 14:07, 10 August 2023 (UTC) Space4Time3Continuum2x ^(cowabunga) 17:16, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

  Just as a practical matter, any close of that thread is likely either to be challenged (forbid the thought) or supplanted by a new discussion and RfC, due to 1) subsequent events and 2) the overly complicated statement of that months-old RfC. It's up to S Marshall what he does for any reason or for no reason but everyone's time would better be spent on more constructive tasks. SPECIFICO talk 15:00, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

• Any close of any discussion involving Mr Trump is highly likely be challenged, and that's okay. Anyone qualified to close this is no stranger to close challenges. But I've been asked to recuse by an editor who meets the criteria I set; and therefore I recuse. This section can be hatted if you wish.—S Marshall T/C 17:37, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

@S Marshall: Do you have any figures or a personal estimate of the relative frequency of close challenges to Trump-related discussions? I do not recall that having been the case, nor do I expect it generally to be the case in the future. Thanks for your efforts here. SPECIFICO talk 19:37, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Birthplace City

So I saw earlier on Wikipedia that for people born in NYC the consensus is to say “New York City, New York, U.S.” in the infobox. As such Donald Trump’s box should be changed as well. Banan14kab (talk) 00:47, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Except that dude is from Queens -- it's important to his life story. Queens boy moves to Manhattan, makes it big. SPECIFICO talk 02:25, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Queens is New York City. 67.82.74.5 (talk) 12:30, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

It's a borough of New York City but, as far as snooty Manhattanites were concerned (and in Trump's mind, it seems), he was a bridge-and-tunnel guy from Queens. Our current consensus, #2, is based on four discussions. Many people associate "New York City" with Manhattan. Space4Time3Continuum2x ^(cowabunga) 13:36, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

See current consensus, item 2. Space4Time3Continuum2x ^(cowabunga) 10:37, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Residence

Shouldn't residence in the Infobox include Trump National Golf Club Bedminster? He spends summers there and says he wants to be buried there. JonathanDP81 (talk) 02:58, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Mar-a-Lago is his legal domicile where he pays taxes, is registered to vote, and where court summons can be served. The private quarters at Bedminster and the apartment at Trump Tower in Manhattan are not his primary residence. Space4Time3Continuum2x ^(cowabunga) 10:35, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Why are the charges against Trump buried in this article?

The charges against Trump are probably the most significant thing about him at this point. They should be given more prominence in the lede and article and not buried, like they are now. This is a disgrace. Sad! 67.82.74.5 (talk) 12:33, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

If you have specific suggestions as to improvement of the article, please present them. Otherwise, "disgrace. Sad!" is pointless. SPECIFICO talk 12:37, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Why, he has not been found guilty yet. Slatersteven (talk) 12:38, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

They're not buried. Per our consensus #37 they're limited to summary-level in the body and in the last paragraph of the lead. Space4Time3Continuum2x ^(cowabunga) 13:40, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

You and at least 2 other people who have brought this concern to the talk page seem to not realize that Wikipedia is not news and thus that the lead of a Wikipedia article is not meant to follow the inverted pyramid structure of a news article. The lead is meant to summarize the body, and the body is meant to tell the story of the man's life, and chronological order is important to that endeavor. ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)}problem solving 14:08, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

I mean, Trump tried to illegally overthrow the duly elected US Government and install himself as unelected dictator after losing the election. It's a pretty big deal. 67.82.74.5 (talk) 14:34, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

See wp:blp until he is found guilty of any of these, he is innocent of all of them. Slatersteven (talk) 14:44, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

• Because it's a huge article about a topic where we have a ton of stuff to discuss, so it's hard to avoid things getting "buried." If you have a proposal for how it could be restructured, go ahead and offer it, but the charges do get nearly an entire paragraph at the end of the lead (and the two paragraphs above it, while not about them directly, discuss events that lead to them.) Currently the lead is mostly chronological because... imagine someone who knows little to nothing about Trump reading it. There's a lot of other biographical details we have to introduce before the charges even make sense - we have to talk about him being president and about the 2020 election before we can talk about his attempts to overturn the 2020 election, and we have to talk about his attempts to overturn the 2020 election before we can talk about charges stemming from that in particular. --Aquillion (talk) 14:42, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Why is there nothing about the cult of Trump in the article?

Since the cult of Donald Trump has been an important, if not critical aspect of Donald Trump since the 1980s, why is there not a single mention of this in the article? Donald Trump was famous for having an ardent cult following in the 1980s. It's how he promoted his books and got people to go visit his properties in Atlantic City and Las Vegas. It's how he got his fan base to buy Trump University products after his nationally famous business bankruptcies. There are many mentions and even books on this topic, so it's exclusion from the article leaves it being very suspect and even intentional. By the way, how much of this article was written by people from outside the United States, where most information on Donald Trump and the U.S. is largely unavailable? Stevenmitchell (talk) 19:48, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Do you have links to reliable sources that describe this "cult of Trump" going back to the 1980s? As for the contributions of editors outside the United States, Wikipedia is a worldwide project, and anybody anywhere in the world can contribute to any article on any topic, as long as they comply with our policies and guidelines. We don't do nationality tests. As for information about Trump being "largely unavailable" in other countries, that assertion is without merit. Media outlets worldwide cover Trump heavily, and anybody with a working uncensored internet connection in any country has easy access to vastly more Trump content than any human being can possibly read. Cullen328 (talk) 02:27, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

This is partly covered by Public image of Donald Trump.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:51, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

WP had a page called MAGA cult which was moved to Trumpism. I'm fairly certain that Trump didn't have an "ardent cult following" in the 1980s — can't prove a negative, 'though. In the 80s, he did seek and get a lot of publicity, including a lot of ridicule. When "The Apprentice" became a success on reality TV, Trump used that success to advertise products offered/made by others, such as real estate training courses and the ACN videophone. The only property he's ever owned in Las Vegas, afaik, is the Trump International Hotel Las Vegas, the No. 10 ugliest building in the world and the sixth ugliest building in the U.S., which he co-owns with Phil Ruffin (it's a condo-hotel, unknown how many units were sold. It doesn't have a casino and didn't open until 2008. Space4Time3Continuum2x ^(cowabunga) 12:20, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Sixth ugliest building in the U.S. is a wild description but I second this. If you find reliable sources (and in this case more scholarly sources would be warranted in my opinion) that discuss this "cult of Trump" extensively then we can probably include a short paragraph somewhere in the article. Cessaune [talk] 01:53, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

The only mention of Trump in the 1980s that I am familiar with is the Marvel Comics supervillain of that name, a stage magician and illusionist. His big ego, a tendency to abuse or kill his employees, and a lust for beautiful women were the character's only personality traits. Dimadick (talk) 23:13, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

14th Amendment

Space4Time3Continuum2x removed a section about Trump's possible ineligibility for office under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. This is not just two lawyers saying this; this issue has been repeatedly raised in WP:RS before (as an Internet search for "Trump 14th amendment" on any of the major search engines will show), and is a matter of active controversy. I propose to reinstate this material. Comments welcome. — The Anome (talk) 07:51, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

NYT: "[T]he scope and depth of the article may encourage and undergird lawsuits from other candidates and ordinary voters arguing that the Constitution makes him ineligible for office." If any states take Trump off the ballot, we’ll mention it but until then it’s an opinion and a hypothetical scenario. The sources you provided, as well as most others I found online, were about the legal paper published by law professors Baude and Paulsen. They’re members of the Federalist Society, so, of course, they received more publicity than, e.g., Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington, who argued in July that "Donald Trump was the central cause of and a participant in the January 6th insurrection. Because of that, Trump is disqualified from holding any public office, including the Office of the President, under Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment." They’re not conservative, though, so very few RS took notice. Space4Time3Continuum2x ^(cowabunga) 09:44, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

RfC: E Jean Carroll civil case finding sexual abuse

Should we include the following text?

Proposed text:

In November 2022, columnist E. Jean Carroll sued Trump for battery, alleging that he "forcibly raped and groped her" in a Manhattan department store in 1995 or 1996, and also sued him for defamation for his October 2022 statement, which included Trump's claim that Carroll "completely made up" the allegation. The jury's verdict, delivered in May 2023, stated that Carroll had proven that Trump sexually abused her and defamed her; thus the jury ordered Trump to pay $5 million to Carroll for damages. Federal judge Lewis Kaplan dismissed Trump's counter-claim that Carroll had defamed him by alleging rape. In his ruling, Kaplan stated that jury's verdict found that Trump did rape Carroll in the common understanding of the word, which includes digital rape. Trump has appealed the jury verdict against him.

After some widely-participated discussions months earlier on the topic, the discussions were unfortunately not closed, archived, and closure was rejected recently on the basis that since new developments occurred, the discussion may be out of date, and that it would be better to have a new discussion with new arguments. The above text is similar to Part 1 of the old discussion, but the second-last sentence ("digitally raped") is entirely new, due to new developments. starship.paint (exalt) 14:35, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

References

Survey (Carroll)

• Support as proposer - the content is relevant, important, reliably cited, WP:DUE, and updated. Sources will be provided in green boxes in the Discussion section. starship.paint (exalt) 14:38, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support - It's well sourced, neutral, certainly due. What's the problem? O3000, Ret. (talk) 14:55, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support - This is brief and to the point, and unlike the other allegations, this one has been adjudicated. Frankly, I'm not sure an RfC is needed. I think a bold edit would not have been challenged. OP, please consider that instead of jumping to yet another time-consuming RfC. SPECIFICO talk 15:16, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Discussion (Carroll)

From previous discussion: @Shibbolethink, SPECIFICO, Lights and freedom, The Capitalist forever, Jerome Frank Disciple, DFlhb, Jayron32, Space4Time3Continuum2x, Iamreallygoodatcheckers, Bob K31416, and Objective3000: starship.paint (exalt) 14:44, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Mainstream sources on the judge's ruling on digital rape - starship

Associated Press (link) the ‘truth’ — that Mr. Trump forcibly digitally penetrated Ms. Carroll Reuters (link) - Kaplan said the May 9 verdict reflected a finding that Trump "deliberately and forcibly" penetrated Carroll's vagina with his fingers. Bloomberg (link) “It accordingly is the ‘truth,’ as relevant here, that Mr. Trump digitally raped Ms. Carroll.” CBS News ([7]) - implicit determination that Mr. Trump digitally raped her The New York Times (link) Kaplan wrote that the jury’s finding implicitly determined that Mr. Trump had forcibly penetrated Ms. Carroll with his fingers, which he said amounts to rape as the term is commonly used NBC News (link) - paragraph 1: the jury believed Trump forcibly penetrated Carroll with his fingers. The verdict "establishes, as against Mr. Trump, the fact that Mr. Trump 'raped' her, albeit digitally rather than with his penis Al Jazeera (link) - The verdict reflected that “Mr Trump ‘raped’ her, albeit digitally rather than with his penis” The Washington Post (link) - that the conduct the jury effectively found Trump liable for — forced digital penetration — meets a more common definition of rape Politico (link) - the proof convincingly established, and the jury implicitly found, that Mr. Trump deliberately and forcibly penetrated Ms. Carroll’s vagina with his fingers The Guardian (link) - paragraph 2: implicitly determined that he forcibly penetrated her digitally

Mainstream sources on the jury's verdict - starship

Associated Press (link) Reuters (link) Agence France Presse (link) CNN (link) NBC News (link) ABC News, American version (link) CNBC (link) CBS News (link) Bloomberg (link) USA Today (link) The New York Times (link) The Washington Post (link) The Wall Street Journal (link) NPR (link) PBS (link) UPI (link) Telemundo, national Spanish-language outlet in America - (link) (link) Australian Broadcasting Corporation (link) British Broadcasting Corporation (link) Al Jazeera (link) Der Speigel (link) The Guardian (link) Forbes staff (link) The Hill (link) Politico (link)

• Regarding WP:DUE, see above. starship.paint (exalt) 14:45, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

@Starship.paint: I think you may have misunderstood the concern about your close request. I don't think we need this RfC. Just make the edit and see whether there's any objection. SPECIFICO talk 15:19, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

• I'm a bit confused. Donald Trump#Civil lawsuits against Trump already includes the following:

In May 2023, a New York jury in a federal lawsuit brought by journalist E. Jean Carroll found Trump liable for sexual abuse and defamation and ordered him to pay her $5 million. Trump asked the court for a new trial or a reduction of the damage award, arguing that the jury had not found him liable for rape. In July, the judge denied the request, saying that Trump had misinterpreted the verdict. The appeal Trump filed separately with the federal appeals court is still pending. In August, the judge dismissed Trump's countersuit for defamation, saying that the details of the jury’s findings showed that Carroll "having maintained that Trump raped her is 'substantially true'". Trump appealed the dismissal.

• Is this new text a proposal to overwrite what is already in the article? – Muboshgu (talk) 15:44, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

References