Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement: Difference between revisions
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{{yo|MrX}}Can you provide any diffs to support my alleged [[WP:Hounding]] of you? The other very old issue you brought up has nothing to do with AP2 and has already been resolved (despite the objection of the other person involved), making it irrelevant here.--[[User:Rusf10|Rusf10]] ([[User talk:Rusf10|talk]]) 00:27, 27 December 2019 (UTC) |
{{yo|MrX}}Can you provide any diffs to support my alleged [[WP:Hounding]] of you? The other very old issue you brought up has nothing to do with AP2 and has already been resolved (despite the objection of the other person involved), making it irrelevant here.--[[User:Rusf10|Rusf10]] ([[User talk:Rusf10|talk]]) 00:27, 27 December 2019 (UTC) |
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{{yo|BullRangifer}}So after attacking me, now you want to make peace and be my friend? Why? because you're under scrutiny? I'm not holding a grudge, you're the one who came to attack me. I just want to be treated fairly, not have my competence called into question every time I say or do something you disagree with.--[[User:Rusf10|Rusf10]] ([[User talk:Rusf10|talk]]) 00:51, 27 December 2019 (UTC) |
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; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : |
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : |
Revision as of 00:51, 27 December 2019
For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
See also: Logged AE sanctions
Important information Please use this page only to:
For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.
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Edit5001
Edit5001 is cautioned to project greater moderation, especially in such a contentious area as AP2. But as Ian.thomson correctly notes, this request does, indeed, lacks focus. See also my comments below for further details. El_C 02:50, 26 December 2019 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Edit5001
This user is making tendentious edits to a wide array of American politics-related articles, editing them to remove and/or weaken reliably-sourced statements about people, misuse sources, depict conspiracy theories as potentially true. When their edits are challenged and they are asked to discuss these contentious changes as per WP:BRD, they have made the statement that
Notified here. Discussion concerning Edit5001Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Edit5001NorthbySouthBaronOf has essentially sat on several political related articles and turned them into partisan political hit pieces for or against subjects as meet his political ends. He refuses to consider any opinions other than this own and declares that each and every modification to articles he's involved with require consensus to the point of needing an RFC for most changes. I'll respond to each and every case he cites; 1. None of my edits were contested on the Talk page. I also only reverted a single edit, which itself was a revert of several of my edits by NorthbySouthBaronOf with zero explanation other than "get consensus", so that's hardly an "edit war". NorthbySouthBaronOf is simply totally wrong about what he's claiming here. 2. Who is the arbitrator on Wikipedia of whether a claim is fit to be labeled "false"? If sources contest something, it's a contested claim. Outright calling people whose articles he's editing liars spreading falsehoods, as NorthBySouthBaronOf commonly does on politically charged pages of those he edits, isn't constructive or neutral. 3. It's extremely contested at best to say Dobbs was intending to be anti-Semitic with those remarks. Criticism of George Soros is extremely common and much of it has absolutely nothing to do with his ethnic background. To flatly label criticism of Soros as anti-Jewish is outrageous. 4. See above. Soros is well known as an international political activist. Further, the source itself calls him a "liberal" philanthropist - wording that NorthbySouthBaronOf completely left out. 5. Vox is described as a politically partisan source here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources The USA Today article, meanwhile, is an opinion piece. That's why I refer to these two sources being cited in the example in question as biased. 6. As I wrote in the edit there - Horowitz stated "It doesn’t vindicate anyone at the FBI who touched this, including the leadership,” This directly covers Strzok, as he was one of the leading FBI agents involved and "touched" the issue thoroughly. 7. I removed that sentence because I felt it wasn't adequately backed by the sources included. Not much beyond it than that. Edit5001 (talk) 15:23, 19 December 2019 (UTC) Statement by Levivich1. Team red Yup, it's AP2! Looking at those diffs, I agree with NSBF on some, with Edit5001 on others. This is a content dispute and should be resolved through dispute resolution, not AE enforcement. Having a difference of opinion is not disruptive. – Levivich 17:01, 19 December 2019 (UTC) Statement by JFGContent disputes; nothing actionable here. Go back to talk pages and seek consensus. — JFG talk 16:58, 20 December 2019 (UTC) Statement by Ian.thomsonIf you look at Talk:White genocide conspiracy theory, you'll see that Edit5001 is a civil POV pusher -- he wants us to "enforce the rules" so stringently on any source that correctly labels the CT as indisputably false but completely ignore multiple editors explaining that we can't just throw in tangentially related sources that supporters would view as evidence for the CT. When directly asked multiple times if he realizes that the CT is false, he dodges the question or refuses to answer. I did figure that if Edit5001 continued to edit in the same manner, they would end up either here or ANI sooner or later but that said, I think this filing was premature and lacks focus. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:45, 20 December 2019 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Edit5001
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Samp4ngeles
Editor self-reverted. TFD (talk) 13:18, 20 December 2019 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Samp4ngeles
Violation of 1RR.
Tulsi Gabbard is under 1RR. The editor was already recently blocked for violating 1RR. I notified them after they exceeded 1RR in this case and asked them to self-revert or I would report them to AE.[2] They replied, "I think you need to count it again. It was only one revert, of the @Xenagoras revert. If you notice, I went on to explain the revert in further by creating a new topic in Talk. That should eliminate any confusion. This is not "edit warring," but I would perhaps agree with you if I were to revert it a second time." However, in both cases they removed the words "and multireligious" in the sentence "Gabbard was raised in a multicultural and multireligious household." Based on the comments of original blocking administrator, the quickness with which the editor reverted to edit-warring and their apparent lack of appreciation of what edit-warring is, I would recommend a topic ban on Tulsi Gabbard and related articles. TFD (talk) 03:39, 20 December 2019 (UTC) Since after a posting by an administrator on the editor's talk page, they have self-reverted, I am collapsing this discussion thread. TFD (talk) 13:18, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Samp4ngelesStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Samp4ngelesStatement by (username)Result concerning Samp4ngeles
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Fifth Harmony Fanboy
Fifth Harmony Fanboy is indefinitely topic banned from post-1932 American politics and is also warned that they are likely to be indefinitely blocked if they repeat similar misuse of sources in other topic areas. Bishonen | talk 10:22, 25 December 2019 (UTC). |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Fifth Harmony Fanboy
I am deeply concerned by this user's pattern of source manipulation on a BLP, including edit-warring to re-add unquestionably deceptive text undercut by the sources.
None known, but FHF has stated that he/she "started a new account because I couldn't remember my old account info." I do not know FHF's previous username, so cannot check that old account).
Discussion concerning Fifth Harmony FanboyStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Fifth Harmony FanboyStatement by MrXThe evidence of POV pushing and edit warring by Fifth Harmony Fanboy is compelling. Notably, Fifth Harmony Fanboy is promoting the same type of material and with similar behavior as sock puppets DouggCousins (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and GooodHousekeeping (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) did a few days before he created his account. {{Checkuser needed}} - MrX 🖋 20:21, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
Statement (Checkuser results) by IvanvectorPer MrX's request, I checked the accounts and found them Unrelated. I clarified after their follow-up comment that they're editing from different continents. I realize these comments should be in my own section, so I'm self-clerking. In my opinion, the technical results show that Fifth Harmony Fanboy cannot be the same operator as the sockpuppeteer behind DouggCousins and GooodHousekeeping, but I cannot rule out some kind of off-wiki coordination between the two sets of accounts. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 01:10, 22 December 2019 (UTC) Result concerning Fifth Harmony Fanboy
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98.221.136.220
As the admin who protected the page for one week (on Dec 23), I'm a bit loath to block. But this request is becoming stale. So I think a warning to the IP that, if all other editors disagree with them, they should not be edit warring against consensus. Instead, they should use the article talk page or other forms of dispute resolution (and accompanying requests) in a manner that is sensible, without bludgeoning the discussion. El_C 02:59, 26 December 2019 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning 98.221.136.220
Notified at 00:21, 19 December 2019 of discretionary sanctions and 1RR rule.
Multiple editors have made the same objection to the change on the article's talk page, yet as the evidence shows the IP persistently claims nobody has provided a reason why and repeatedly tries to use references that, while certainly talking about the Easter Rising in the context of World War 1 (as every book written about the Rising will do) don't say it's part of World War 1 (as every book written about the Rising doesn't do).
The editor's refusal to listen has led to Scolaire, The Banner and Guliolopez to all say we should not even bother replying any more.
Discussion concerning 98.221.136.220Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by 98.221.136.220I support the inclusion of the Easter Rising as part of the Great War for a variety of reasons. For starters, I believe that the fact that WW1 significantly influenced the timing, conduct, and outcome of the Rising, it should be naturally included as part of WW1, (meaning it cannot be adequately understood without WW1). This matches the Ireland and World War I page, which mentions the Rising in its text, ostensibly because the Easter Rising was part of the First World War. I have provided numerous sources (see the Easter Rising talk page at the bottom), which show that WW1 played a heavy hand in the rising, and that the rising would have developed differently if it were otherwise. These sources, the majority from RS sites, not only back up my claims, but show that my belief is in fact common and widespread among scholars of the conflict. User Keith-264, who is part of the Military History project, agreed with my position. If you check my contributions, I have notified other members of the MilHistory project to contribute to the discussion, because I believe their opinion was more relevant to the discussion (most haven't responded yet). The other editors who opposed my edits never really explained why significant influence over timing, conduct, and outcome don't warrant inclusion. Moreover, they alluded to "historians" who agree with them but never gave any sources at all that stated explicitly that the Rising wasn't part of WW1 (meaning they named names but gave no quotes justifying their name-dropping). I gave sources, they didn't. Perhaps my editing was bothersome, but at least it was factual. The Banner tried stalking my contributions on the Central Asian revolt of 1916 page and tried to edit war (without providing any reason, once again I provided a source in response) but ceased. In summary, the above editors adamantly disagreed with my position simply because they felt so, not because they provided any source or reason; I provided sources and reasons. Finally, the above editors reverted to attacking a straw man, saying that I was mistaking the uprising for a time coincidence, which I wholeheartedly disagree with. I provided examples to prove that we were on the same page (another example, the First Caco War during the United States occupation of Haiti occurred in Haiti in 1915 while an influential German population was there, but I disagree with any assessment stating that the Caco War was part of WW1 because no sources have made any substantial connection of influence). That pretty much sums up my position. Why doesn't significant influence by the Great War, particularly to the point where it determined the Rising's timing, conduct, and outcome, make the Rising not part of WW1? I gave reasons, they did not. Personally, for the record, I prefer some dispute resolution to mindless bickering. 98.221.136.220 (talk) 21:26, 21 December 2019 (UTC) Statement by Keith-264That the Germans had a policy of encouraging insurrection in British and French colonies and supported Irish nationalists indubitably makes the Rising part of the Great War and this should be reflected in the infobox. Keith-264 (talk) 22:17, 21 December 2019 (UTC) Statement by GuliolopezIn terms of content, while it is clear, acknowledged and already covered that the Easter Rising occurred during (and at least partially within the context of) the Great War, that it was "part of" the war is not supported by the available references. (That the anon editor implies that these references do not exist because it is so obviously self-evident and therefore unnecessary for a historian to state as much, simply isn't the case. And isn't how references work anyway.) Five other editors have pointed this out on the relevant talk page. In terms of editing patterns, while 98.221.136.220 has received several advisories against warring and contra-consensus editing (both on user talk page, article talk page and otherwise), the editor took it upon themselves to engage in a series of warring reverts to push a single POV. As here: [4][5][6]. (Justifying doing based on partial support from one other editor who was declared an expert by virtue of participating in a WikiProject and therefore more important "than the 'consensus'"). In terms of user behaviour, that the related talk-page thread is now approaching 6,000 words (in an argument with 5 other editors about adding TWO WORDS to the infobox) would seem, to me, to be evidence of a type of WP:BLUDGEONING and WP:NOTLISTENING that is not helpful to the project. It is pretty clear to me that this anon is treating the project (and the article and its talk page) as a battleground, has little interest in collaborative editing, and is generally WP:NOTHERE for the purposes of expanding the project constructively and collaboratively or for the benefit of the reader. I'm not sure what action to suggest. But the warring (and near trolling IMO) might warrant at least a temporary block. Guliolopez (talk) 11:36, 22 December 2019 (UTC) Comment by SN54129I'm not sure I see the need to bring a dynamic IP AE. How will it be enforced? ——SN54129 14:53, 22 December 2019 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning 98.221.136.220
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Jweiss11
Request concerning Jweiss11
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Bacondrum (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 00:14, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Jweiss11 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:BLOCKEVADE
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- [7] has a tban that applies to this article
- [8] has a tban that applies to this article
- [9] has a tban that applies to this article
- [10] xhas a tban that applies to this article
- [11] has a tban that applies to this article
- [12] has a tban that applies to this article
- [13] has a tban that applies to this article
- [14] has a tban that applies to this article
- [15] has a tban that applies to this article
- [16] has a tban that applies to this article
- [17] xhas a tban that applies to this article
And this list could go on and on.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- [18] Explanation
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Jweiss was well aware that Ngo and Quillette are connected, he personally added Ngo's work at Quillette to the lede of Ngo's article here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Quillette&diff=prev&oldid=930921808
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Jweiss11 has been editing the Quillette article,[19] edited by Andy Ngo in contravention of an indefinite topic banned from all pages connected with Andy Ngo [20]
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Jweiss11
Statement by Jweiss11
As I stated at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:Jweiss11, based on my discussion with with Bishonen on my talk page in the wake of the sanction, in particular her comment, "...Or maybe appeal the ban if you think it's worth it (it's after all a small ban, from just one article subject)" on September 11, it was my judgement that that ban would not apply to Quillette. None of my edits there or elsewhere since then have been related to the sanctioned topic. See also comments at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:Jweiss11 from Loksmythe, Springee, and Paulmcdonald to that effect. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:22, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
I appreciate everyone's comments here. I want to respond to a couple items. First, per Bishonen's comment about this edit, I understand the argument that the entirety of the Quillette article would fall under the ban because of the banned subject's connection to it. That's not an argument I agree with, and it certainly wasn't my working understanding going into this incident, but that argument seems coherent enough. However, if we are working under the assumption that my editing of the Quillette article is okay so long as it doesn't deal with content directly related to the banned topic, I'd say it's not legitimate to argue that the removal of a stray character following a sentence that has a citation that mentions the banned topic qualifies as a violation. I vaguely remember making that edit. I make many like it all time even when in more of read mode as a I surf around and notice a glaring typographical or layout issue, particularly in the lead of an article. The motivation for that edit was utterly unrelated to any specific meaningful content.
Second, @El C:, are you considered an involved admin here? That seems curious to me given your role as the first responder to Bacondrum's related edit war. Jweiss11 (talk) 04:17, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
- @El C: here's the relevant link to your first-response to Bacondrum's edit war, which also admonished me based on a mistaken count of edits: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Quillette&diff=932171468&oldid=932171283. Jweiss11 (talk) 04:33, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
Statement by Lepricavark
See this edit at Talk:Quillette, in which Bacondrum strikes several of Jweiss11's comments. In the edit summary, Bacondrum justifies their action by citing a policy that allows for the striking of comments made by sockpuppets. Unless Bacondrum wishes to suggest that Jweiss11 is a sockpuppet, there was no justification for striking those posts. In the ANI thread, Bacondrum has also come across as overeager to get Jweiss in trouble. It's time to back off and let cooler heads weigh in. Lepricavark (talk) 03:47, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
Note that Bacondrum has rage quit Wikipedia after being criticized for repeatedly posting his comments on this page in the wrong section. So much for cooler heads prevailing. Lepricavark (talk) 15:10, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
Statement by Aquillion
Three points:
- Regardinging Bacondrum's striking or reversion of Jweiss11's comments, assuming the topic ban does apply to that article, those would probably be justified under WP:BANREVERT (which applies to violations of topic-bans, not merely sockpuppetry); Bacondrum merely linked to the wrong policy.
- Regarding the scope of the topic ban, the sanction itself is clearly worded as applying to
all pages connected with Andy Ngo
, not just the page Andy Ngo specifically. - Regarding whether Quillette is connected to Andy Ngo (or closely connected enough), Ngo was well-known and widely-reported on as a somewhat infamous editor at Quillette before he quit or was let go (under somewhat controversial circumstances, which have a paragraph devoted to them on Ngo's page); Jweiss11 is aware of this, here and here (it looks like Bacondrum got the wrong link above.) Whether that connection is enough to be a topic-ban violation is another question, but it seems at least worth clarifying.
Those seem to be the important points. --Aquillion (talk) 06:13, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
Statement SN54129
Here from ANEW, so will repeat myself—with a couple of tweaks for context—particularly regarding the matter of blocks n' bans.
It would seem as if Bacondrum was reverting in line with policy; after all, Anyone is free to revert any edits made in violation of a ban, without giving any further reason and without regard to the three-revert rule
. It may be that other parties were unintentionally enabling a breach of the topic ban—covered as it is by WP:BMB—and that is not something they deserve criticism for, just education. However, warning Bacondrum for edit warring over something explicitly covered by WP:3RRNO (#3) seems rather undeserved also.
Regarding doubts raised as to whether the page is within scope (It is your claim that the article Quillette is covered by the Andy Ngo topic ban. However, that has not been established
), they are unfounded. As noted, Bishonen quite explicitly T-banned Jweiss11 from from all pages connected with Andy Ngo
; I find it unlikely that, on consideration, anyone is really suggesting that the talk page of an article in which the subject is directly discussed multiple times (as on T:Quillette) is not a page connected to the article. If, of course, they believe that the Tban is unfair, then the usual routes of appeal are open to them. But I don't think anyone argues that ignoring a topic ban is an effective way to contest it. ——SN54129 11:39, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
Just realised User:Aquillion has said much of this, with more brevity and much improvement, apologies. But I'd also add that Bacondrum has received an "official" warning for edit-warring, which should probably be expunged. ——SN54129 11:40, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
- @Paulmacdonald: please post in your own section, not others', and that includes the "Uninvolved administrators" section also, as you are very much involved. Many thanks. ——SN54129 10:11, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
Statement by Springee
As I said at the ANI discussion, I see this as a bad faith accusation by the filing editor. They recently went on a bit of a warpath removing Jweiss11's comments from the Quillette talk page [[22]]. As I've read topic bans enforced in the past, if an editor is banned from topic X then they cannot post to that article (or talk page) nor can they discuss that topic at other articles. So if you are Tbanned from Trump articles you can't edit Trump's personal BLP article, his presidential article, articles about his business etc. You also can't edit Trump Casino related materiel in say the Las Vegas strip article. It doesn't mean you can't edit an article about Las Vegas or the strip just because Trump has a casino on the strip. If you were editing the Las Vegas strip article to discuss the Caesars Palace you haven't violated the Tban. The claim that a Tban related to Andy Ngo is effectively a Tban from the Quillette article is laughable. It comes from the same type of common sense that thought it was reasonable to delete another editor's talk page comments... 5 times despite those edits being restored by two other editors. Would we also say the Wall Street Journal article is off limits because one of Ngo's early, controversies involved work for the WSJ?
Jweiss11's edits to the Quillette article were totally unrelated to the topic of Andy Ngo's employment by the site. They also were well within the scope of good editing practice and respectful disagreement. The behavior of Bacondrum is really that which needs review. Not just for the edit warring but for failing to understand basic concepts that help to prevent talk page animosity. Questioning if the Andy Ngo tban applied to the Quillette page was reasonable. The disruptive behavior before and after are not. I would suggest closing with a clear warning that Bacondrun needs to review policies related to CIVIL and CONSENSUS. Springee (talk) 12:18, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
@El C:, please see @Bishonen:'s comments here [[23]]. you are not allowed to talk about Ngo anywhere on Wikipedia, except in the context of appealing this ban, or of asking for explanation and clarification, as you're doing now. That includes user talkpages.
. At no point didn Jweiss11 talk about Ngo or his employment, even obliquely, at the Quillette article. Springee (talk) 19:04, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
@Bishonen:, do you consider the whole Quillette article and talk page to be part of the Tban or just the part with an Andy Ngo references? I would argue that this is a stretch to call the whole subject Ngo related and this will be used to justify ignoring/striking legitimate talk page comments and as a way to build steamroll a "new" consensus on some disputed content vs working towards a compromise. Springee (talk) 00:01, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
Statement by Kyohyi
A number of editors are hanging on the "all pages connected to" aspect of the topic ban. I think it's worth noting that Jweiss11 asked for clarification regarding the ban, and received two comments from the imposing administrator. [24] [25] These posts to me indicate that it was intended to be limited to Andy Ngo (or possibly Andy Ngo broadly construed), and not every thing that someone can posit as a link to Andy Ngo. Though it would probably be best for the imposing admin to clarify their intended scope. --Kyohyi (talk) 15:48, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
- @El C: I believe clarification was sought when the Tban was imposed, unfortunately admins commenting at the time merely pointed to [WP: TBAN], and didn't really go any further on what "connected to" meant. This leads me to believe that "all pages connected to" really means "broadly construed", and broadly construed is defined in TBAN. --Kyohyi (talk) 19:20, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
Statement by Bishonen
Jweiss, you shouldn't have made the judgment[26] that the T-ban would not apply to Quillette; you should have asked. As for your attempt to use a comment by Paulmacdonald as a prop, that cuts no ice with me. If anybody is inclined to give weight to Paulmacdonald's opinion on the basis that he's an admin, I warmly recommend them to read this discusssion, with particular attention to Paul's contributions, especially this response to a question. Compare also Black Kite's comment below.
Your edits to Quillette as enumerated by Bacondrum are generally very minor and harmless. However, note this edit, where you copyedit a sentence with a very visible footnote about Ngo (indeed with the "ref name" Vox-Ngo, and the actual title being "The assault on conservative journalist Andy Ngo, explained"). You didn't notice, I guess. But if you're going to make dodgy judgments such as that Quillette does not come under your T-ban, then you need to be very noticing altogether. Asking is safer.
That said, I would go by my usual principle here, which is to let a first T-ban vio go with a warning. (I see this as one vio, even though it's several edits.) Especially since, quoting Springee, "At no point did Jweiss11 talk about Ngo or his employment, even obliquely". Bishonen | talk 22:44, 24 December 2019 (UTC).
- Comment I have no objection to anyone reviewing any comments I have made. I also would recommend that no one give extra credit to me or anyone else based on Wikipedia administrator status. Note the essay Wikipedia:But I'm an administrator! for any details. Each argument should stand on its own merits regardless of who made them. Why am I suddenly a topic of consideration in this discussion?--Paul McDonald (talk) 03:07, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
- Question on this edit noted above, I'm not exactly understanding what was edited. It looks like it might have just been removal of a carriage return--if that's the case, it could have been easy to not notice the content of the paragraph. What am I missing there?--Paul McDonald (talk) 03:12, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
- @Paulmcdonald:, please create a section of your own and place all comments you wish to make there. The reason you're "suddenly" a topic of discussion here is that Jweiss11 referred to your ANI comment in their post above, so it's not really sudden on my part or Black Kite's. We do expect more of administrators, see WP:ADMINCOND: "Administrators are expected to lead by example". That, I presume, was the reason User:Black Kite found your ANI comment disturbing: a sysop is expected to be well-informed when making comments, or else refrain from making them. The "links and changes [you] looked at" before commenting at ANI were clearly insufficient. Looking at the article Andy Ngo, which was the basis of the topic ban, before commenting would have been a good idea. Ngo's work for Quillette is mentioned there. Or, as Black Kite suggests, taking a good look at Jweiss's contributions. (User:Serial Number 54129, your ping of Paul won't have worked, but nm, I'm pinging him now.) Bishonen | talk 16:03, 25 December 2019 (UTC).
- @Springee:. Yes, I think the Quillette article is covered by the topic ban. But I don't think Jweiss's decision that it wasn't was made in any kind of bad faith — his edits were not tendentious AFAICS. He'd better have asked, that's all. But as I've already said, I'm against sanctioning him for this. Indeed, if he is sanctioned — which I presume would mean a block — I'm thinking of lifting the topic ban. Not retroactively, of course, but for the future. I don't want any editor to have to constantly worry whether they're violating a T-ban or not. Compare User:EdJohnston's comment here. Bishonen | talk 16:16, 25 December 2019 (UTC).
- @Jweiss11: As for your suggestion that El C is involved, no he isn't. (At least, for your question about it to make sense, I'm assuming that when you wrote "El C, are you considered an involved admin here? That seems curious to me", you meant to say "are you considered an uninvolved admin?") Per WP:INVOLVED,
"An administrator who has interacted with an editor or topic area purely in an administrative role ... is not involved and is not prevented from acting in an administrative capacity in relation to that editor or topic area."
Italics in original. What you link to regarding El C is administrative action. Bishonen | talk 10:29, 26 December 2019 (UTC). - Paul McDonald, please move the comments you have made, here and below in the uninvolved admin section, to your own section (add names with pings so that it's clear who you're responding to, the way I'm doing here). The rule about it is to be found in the big pink box at the top of the page: "Statements must be made in separate sections." I agree it's not easy to find. Bishonen | talk 10:29, 26 December 2019 (UTC).
Statement by Paulmcdonald
I apologize. Apparently there is a rule or expectation that we only comment in sections based on our userid. I found no reference to that anywhere in this document, so I followed standard Wikipedia behavior and replied in-line.
If the links that I looked at were insufficient (again, that's possible) the fix is easy: post the link(s) that support your conclusion. In order to "prove someone didn't do something" we would need to examine every edit that the user made. Instead, we need to "prove someone did do something" which only requires posting the evidence. If I'm wrong, I'll change my position. Show me.--Paul McDonald (talk) 16:41, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
Statement by Levivich
WP:INVOLVED says One important caveat is that an administrator who has interacted with an editor or topic area purely in an administrative role ... is not involved and is not prevented from acting in an administrative capacity in relation to that editor or topic area.
– Levivich 04:56, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
Statement by Nil Einne
@Paulmcdonald: AE follows the rules of arbitration cases so is a little different from many places, but yes, you are expect to only comment in named sections.
I don't think it's particularly plausible that Jweiss11 was not aware of Quillette's connection to Andy Ngo considering edits like this [27] [28] [29] which I found by looking through the histories. Note that I stopped after finding those examples.
But anyway, even if we didn't know of edits like this, or we think maybe he completely forgot about the connection, considering that the article Andy Ngo mentions Quillette in the lead and his leaving Quillette in the body I don't think it's unreasonable for us to assume that Jweiss11 was aware of the connection without needing evidence.
If Jweiss11 denies they were aware, perhaps we can AGF. But AFAICT, Jweiss11 has never said they weren't aware. Instead they've never answered when asked, and concentrated on the fact that they feel what they were told suggests it's not a violation despite any connection.
Nil Einne (talk) 12:27, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
I'm concerned by User:Jweiss11's comment at ANI "the sanction only applied to that one article
". They said they got this impression in part from the comment "(it's after all a small ban, from just one article subject)
". But that comment has an important modifier "article subject
".
In my opinion, Quillette is clearly part of that article subject. Maybe Andy Ngo is not a particularly big part of Quillette, although enough that his name is mentioned in one of the ref titles albeit not really in relation to what the reference is used for, and that he is mentioned in 2 of the refs currently supporting a while paragraph. But significantly, at the moment his work for Quillette seems to be a somewhat big part of his notability.
It's still a very narrow topic ban, other than Quillette, there aren't many articles likely affected. E.g. Daily Vanguard, Antifa (United States), Proud Boys, Patriot Prayer, Rose City Antifa are some of the few where there may be concerns. (Articles like Portland, Oregon, Portland State University for example seem too disconnected.)
Editors may disagree whether it applies to the entire article of Quillette etc. But I don't see anyone can plausibly claim it doesn't apply where Andy Ngo is directly mention, or using something written by Andy Ngo as a ref. While this may not have happened here, it demonstrates the importance of the distinction between one article, and one article subject.
Nil Einne (talk) 12:27, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
Result concerning Jweiss11
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- This request seems to be incomplete at this time. El_C 00:18, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
- @Bacondrum: I'm not sure, but in any case, you need to inform Jweiss11 on their user talk page that this report exists. El_C 00:46, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
- I'm looking at Jweiss11's talk page, but there seems to be no notification there concerning this AE report. El_C 00:54, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
- @Bacondrum: I'm beginning to question your level of competence here. Why do you continue to comment in this section (four times already!)?El_C 04:38, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
- @Jweiss11: there seems to be a firm connection between Quillette and Andy Ngo, so to say you thought the ban does not encompass it is surprising. El_C 18:55, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
- @Springee: Topic ban's scope is clear:
all pages connected with Andy Ngo
. At the very least, some clarifications should have been sought. El_C 19:07, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
- Unless there are objections, I intend to close this with a warning per Bishonen. The spectrum dividing Black Kite and DGG isn't likely to be bridged —obviously, I lean more toward the former— but in terms of sanctions, I usually apply a warning for first-time topic ban violations, anyway. So, I suggest we just do that and move on. El_C 02:25, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
- @Jweiss11: I don't know what you're referring to. Please don't make me search for it and just provide the relevant links. El_C 04:27, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
- @Jweiss11: I don't see how that makes me involved. I also closed the AN3 report. But someone else can close this report as they see fit, sure. El_C 04:40, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
- @Springee: Topic ban's scope is clear:
- Comment I'm a little concerned that some editors seem to assume a level of stupidity on the behalf of administrators. Jweiss11 was quite aware that the Quilette article was related to Ngo - how could they not be when they'd already been topic-banned from Ngo and Quillette is mentioned in a significant part of Ngo's article? Phil Bridger at the ANI performed a remarkable feat of AGF by saying "The scope of the topic ban is clear from the user talk page: "You have been indefinitely topic banned from all pages connected with Andy Ngo." If Jweiss wasn't aware that Ngo was connected to Quillette before then he does now.". But they were quite aware of the link. Yes, Bacondrum's editing was sub-par here - being right (and he was) doesn't give you the right to edit-war. Incidentally, I am somewhat concerned by this comment from a sysop (User:Paulmcdonald) - "It's evident to me that Jweiss11 was not consciously aware of any connection (based on talk comments end editor history) and the connection to the banned topic is not obvious--in fact, it seems to be quite a stretch to say they are related." when there's a whole paragraph about Quillette in Ngo's article which Jweiss is very familiar with and topic-banned from. This is actually quite disturbing, to be honest. Other admin's comments welcome. Black Kite (talk) 15:35, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
- Question what's disturbing about it? It's possible I'm incorrect. If so, just point that out-mistakes happen. Was this one? Show me, no big deal. Based on the links and changes I looked at, I don't see it--and the one mentioned above looks like just a carriage return removal which could have been done without reading the content. But I haven't reviewed every edit he made. Make your case, just make it clear.--Paul McDonald (talk) 03:16, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
- Well, it is worrying. You said it was "evident" that Jweiss11 wasn't aware of any connection when even a cursory scan of their contributions would have made it clear that they were absolutely quite aware of it. I'm concerned that you didn't see that. Black Kite (talk) 13:55, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
- I still haven't seen it. Rather than being accusatory toward me, perhaps you could just show your evidence. I'm asking.--Paul McDonald (talk) 15:02, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
- Well, it is worrying. You said it was "evident" that Jweiss11 wasn't aware of any connection when even a cursory scan of their contributions would have made it clear that they were absolutely quite aware of it. I'm concerned that you didn't see that. Black Kite (talk) 13:55, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
- Question what's disturbing about it? It's possible I'm incorrect. If so, just point that out-mistakes happen. Was this one? Show me, no big deal. Based on the links and changes I looked at, I don't see it--and the one mentioned above looks like just a carriage return removal which could have been done without reading the content. But I haven't reviewed every edit he made. Make your case, just make it clear.--Paul McDonald (talk) 03:16, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
- I have never heard of either the magazine or the person until today. Looking at the discussion here and at ANI, I definitely do not consider the editing here to be a violation of the topic ban if they do not concern any of the columns or other work by Ngo. As pointed out at ANI, and in the lede of the Ngo article, Ngo has worked at numerous other media outlets. A topic ban on Ngo does not rationally cover everything about articles about those other publications. Nor does it cover an article about Ngo's home town or any of other places he has lived, or everyone who has ever commented on any of Ngo's work. There is thus no violation by JWeiss11. A"firm connection" has to be also relevant to be the basis for a violation DGG ( talk ) 01:42, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
BullRangifer
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning BullRangifer
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Rusf10 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 23:28, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- BullRangifer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics 2 :
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- December 21, 2019 violation of WP:NPA. Stated that I was either acting in bad faith or had "a competency issue"
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- July 20, 2018- "BullRangifer is warned that if they persist in making personal attacks and treating Wikipedia as a battleground, they may be topic-banned from the American politics topic area or made subject to other sanctions"
- March 13, 2019- "The comment was clearly inappropriate, especially given the previous warning. BullRangifer has struck the comment and apologised and so I am closing this with no action, but this is thin ice being skated."
- April 24, 2019-"Awilley has applied some specific sanctions to both editors involved. Additionally, everyone involved (and specifically Rusf10 and BullRangifer) is reminded that wikipedia is not a battleground, nor a forum for discussing politics, but a place where we summarise the world's knowledge as we find it in reliable sources. "
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Participated in an arbitration request or enforcement procedure about the area of conflict in the last twelve months (see above)
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
I am not sure if this is even the right venue for this complaint since the personal attack occurred on my user talk page. However, filing this since my ANI complaint was closed by El C, who instructed me to bring it here. The issue began when I nominated FBI secret society for deletion, believing in did not meet our guidelines for inclusion. That article happened to have been created by user:MrX, who then came to my talk page to make a bad faith accusation against me [30] based on the fact we had a disagreement on another article talk page. He then doubled down on his assumption of bad faith and threatened me "My accusation of bad faith is exactly what was called for. Watch yourself". BullRangifer came to my user page to attack me completely unprovoked (I have not had any direct contact with him in months) to back up Mr. X. [31] The attack of my competence was the same WP:PERSONALATTACK that he made here which resulted in the March 13 warning issued by user:GoldenRing. Both Mr. X's and BullRangifer's behavior is unacceptable and I should not have to tolerate WP:HARASSMENT. BullRangifer's behavior is especially troubling though since I have made a voluntary effort to avoid interaction with him and the personal attack he made was exactly the same as what he was previously warned about.--Rusf10 (talk) 23:28, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
@BullRangifer:To clear up any confusion about any sanction that I am under, here is confirmation from User:Awilley himself. Your comment was a clear personal attack as per WP:CIRNOT which appears on the page you linked to. To make matters worse, you had no business getting involved here since the discussion on my talk page had absolutely nothing to do with you. Also, I'd like to ask what you meant by "especially if one has a COI of the negative kind" [32] Are you saying I have a WP:COI, not sure? And now you just questioned my competency yet again in your response below.--Rusf10 (talk) 00:23, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
@MrX:Can you provide any diffs to support my alleged WP:Hounding of you? The other very old issue you brought up has nothing to do with AP2 and has already been resolved (despite the objection of the other person involved), making it irrelevant here.--Rusf10 (talk) 00:27, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
@BullRangifer:So after attacking me, now you want to make peace and be my friend? Why? because you're under scrutiny? I'm not holding a grudge, you're the one who came to attack me. I just want to be treated fairly, not have my competence called into question every time I say or do something you disagree with.--Rusf10 (talk) 00:51, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning BullRangifer
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by BullRangifer
Unless Awilley's one year sanction from April 13, 2019, on Rusf10 for their vexatious dramaboard filings against me has expired or has been lifted, this is a SECOND violation of the sanction in two days. This will be the FIFTH such frivolous filing, and the sanction was issued after the THIRD. Even if it's expired, this obsessive behavior should resurrect it, and with a vengeance.
MrX provided this link as evidence the sanction is still in effect, so this is indeed a SECOND violation within two days.
This is a repeat of this closed filing at AN/I two days ago, closed by El C as not a personal attack. That should have been enough for Rusf10 to cease and desist.
Why Rusf10 is so fixated on me is puzzling. I have a talk page. Why don't they just talk to me? Why is their first reflex a battleground one? Why escalate differences, when defusion is better? "Blessed are the peacemakers" because they do not take perceived offenses to dramaboards.
Lest there be any confusion, the sanction on me only applies to article talk pages. My criticism of Rusf10 was rare; it was very specific; it was explained; it was on their personal talk page and not an article talk page; and it was not gratuitous or uncivil. Lack of competency is an accusation that should not be made lightly. I will let others decide whether my judgment of Rusf10's starting of that AfD was wrong, especially since it seemed to be a revenge AfD directed at MrX.
I see this as a thin-skinned response by labeling my justified criticism as a personal attack. The appropriate response is a ban hammer, multiple flying slimy-trout boomerangs, and other sanctions for holding a grudge and now trotting it out as a continuation of Rusf10's previous battleground behaviors. There are a number of behavioral violations here.
A couple days ago SPECIFICO wrote this: "In my opinion this report is boomerang-worthy on its own 2 feet. This is the kind of documented behavior that led to Rusf10's sanction and it would have been better to dispense a TBAN at the outset."
At the very least, this is an abuse of the Arbitration Committee, and at worst a question of a double sanction violation, competency issues, and obsessive harassment behavior. -- BullRangifer (talk) 23:59, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
Okay, Rusf10, so AFTER this started, Awilley let you know the sanction was deprecated. That's nice to know now.
Did you fail to notice his continued "warning about filling vexatious requests"?
Following up from several pings I got from AN/I the other day, yes the sanction is depricated, and sorry for not logging it. It slipped my mind at the time. In the absence of a formal sanction, you should still consider this a warning about filling vexatious requests for admin intervention against ideological opponents and recognize that if you continue to do so any admin is likely to hit you with a standard sanction like a topic ban. ~ Awilley 23:45, 26 December 2019
I suggest you take that to heart and drop this renewal of your obsessive abuse of drama boards to settle minor slights which can be dealt with on talk pages. I have one. You're welcome to discuss things with me. I'd rather make friends than see someone gathering and saving small scraps of worthless paper for years so they can later make a huge bonfire. Don't hold grudges. Be a peacemaker. -- BullRangifer (talk) 00:45, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
Statement by MrX
Rusf10 is incorrect in stating that I came to their talk page to make a bad faith accusation against them. In fact, I made a good faith accusation about their bad faith deletion nomination of an article that I wrote, because the nomination occurred 76 minutes after I reverted their edit on another article. Given the suspicious circumstances and my previous observations of Rusf10's conduct, my assertion that their AfD nomination was done for revenge was perfectly reasonable. - MrX 🖋 23:48, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
- Revert: 18:48 ➜ AfD: 20:04. - MrX 🖋 00:04, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
It looks like I'm not the first victim of Rusf10's revenge AfDs. See User talk:Rusf10#AfD
These can't all be coincidences. I request that an admin review this repeated WP:HOUNDING by Rusf10 and consider appropriate sanctions. - MrX 🖋 00:20, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning BullRangifer
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.