Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard: Difference between revisions
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[[Talk:2014_Israeli_raids_on_UNRWA_schools#RfC:_Should_this_article_contain_the_section_.22other_UNRWA_incidents.22.3F|This]] RfC might be of interest to people here. It is more of a [[WP:UNDUE]] rather than [[WP:NPOV]] issue, but the two are somewhat related. [[User:Kingsindian|Kingsindian]] ([[User talk:Kingsindian|talk]]) 21:45, 14 August 2014 (UTC) |
[[Talk:2014_Israeli_raids_on_UNRWA_schools#RfC:_Should_this_article_contain_the_section_.22other_UNRWA_incidents.22.3F|This]] RfC might be of interest to people here. It is more of a [[WP:UNDUE]] rather than [[WP:NPOV]] issue, but the two are somewhat related. [[User:Kingsindian|Kingsindian]] ([[User talk:Kingsindian|talk]]) 21:45, 14 August 2014 (UTC) |
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:thanks for this information was very useful.[[User:Docsim|Docsim]] ([[User talk:Docsim|talk]]) 05:14, 19 August 2014 (UTC) |
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== [[Creation Museum]] == |
== [[Creation Museum]] == |
Revision as of 05:14, 19 August 2014
This page has a backlog that requires the attention of willing editors. Please remove this notice when the backlog is cleared. |
Welcome — ask about adherence to the neutral point of view in context! | |||||||
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Use of Breitbart.com to defend America: Imagine the World Without Her
The purpose of noticeboards is to bring issues to the attention of univolved editors. This has already served its purpose as those editors are now commenting on and participating on the article's talk page. No uninvolved editor has commented on this discussion here in some time. It has degenerated to the point where only two people have been arguing back and forth between themselves for a week, so it is time for them to take it to the article talk page or their personal talk pages. Gamaliel (talk) 19:34, 6 August 2014 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Stuck – In the past week the last The movie, America: Imagine the World Without Her received over wheeling negative reviews by film critics. However, the article has a long quote from Breitbart.com that defends the movie. I think the source is a fringe source and the long quote is WP:UNDUE. Other editors disagree. I would ask for some input into this issue. Thanks in advance. The talk page discussion can be found here. Casprings (talk) 02:33, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
I'd like to note a couple of things. The specific reference to breitbart.com is regarding a quote from the producer. The "reception" section is suppose to inform readers about how the film was critically and publicly received and I don't see how Molen's criticism of a review is relevant to the purpose of a section. That quote and information seems more appropriately placed on a page about Molen. The next thing I'd like to note is the use of cinemascore. I don't have a problem with the use of cinemascore, but it should not be given equal weight to what critics say and should be identified and separated as viewer polling. The way the information is presented now, it appears the cinemascore is provided to contradict with the critic's score and that is an example of undue weight. That would be like using the opinions of civilians to contradict historians in an article about the civil war. I think the cinemascore information should be moved to its own paragraph and specifically identified as a survey of moviegoers and other viewer based reviews should also be referenced. Scoobydunk (talk) 16:53, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
Did you read the guideline quotes I posted showing that we aren't restricted to only presenting professional film critics' opinions? The guidelines specifically endorse including reception from audiences and notable non film critics. This particular article section isn't even titled "Critical reception", but just "Reception". So the majority of pro critics thinking something doesn't mean other views should be excluded. You also appear confused on a few points. The hypothetical labels in Wiki's voice being discussed in this tangent aren't currently in the article, so it would be hard to remove them. And, again, if sources use the label then it's not WP:OR to apply it. It may or may not be appropriate for other reasons, but it's not original research as defined by the policy. Finally, it seems to me that purging half the debate and only allowing one side of the political divide's voice into an article about an explicitly political film, while scrubbing any mention of said voice's political affiliation, is the very definition of POV. Neutrality demands both sides be presented if there's more than one significant view, as there clearly is. We can simply include coverage of both sides without the Wiki voice labels you object to. Whether or not to add them is a slightly different issue. VictorD7 (talk) 21:32, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
Hogwash on all counts. Ben Shapiro is "notable" by definition because he has a Wikipedia article about him. None of the negative film reviewers currently quoted in the article have such articles, and therefore aren't notable by definition. That you start off by making such a grossly, factually inaccurate claim invalidates your whole position. Shapiro represents at least half the American political spectrum. In fact Gallup polling shows that conservatives outnumber liberals by about two to one, which is why Democrats run more rhetorically away from their base in general elections than Republicans do (the latter are certainly more likely to call themselves "conservative" than the former are "liberal"), even often echoing (sincerely or not) the type of patriotic themes espoused by people like D'Souza and Shapiro. Regardless, you can't dismiss half the political spectrum as unfit for mention. That's insane and unacceptable POV on your part. As for topical scope, my Talk Page section notes that it's routine for Wikipedia articles to cover the noteworthy or controversial aspects of the reception itself, and I list several specific high profile examples. Certainly you've presented nothing in guidelines or policy to prohibit such commentary. The fact that Shapiro's views clearly represent the vast majority of those who have watched the film further refutes your argument. VictorD7 (talk) 16:15, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
Resetting the discussionI have isolated the critics responses into their own section in accordance with MOS:FILM#Critical response. It now has the Rotten Tomatoes & Metacritic data, plus one review from Ebert. The non-movie-critic responses are in a following section. IMO this "new" section will allow for discussion of the film from the political blogger/commentator points of view and avoid the unnecessarily disruptive debate as to whether Hollywood is left, far left or whatever. So, the question can get back to the original theme – to what extent should Breitbart.com and other commentators be placed in the article? – S. Rich (talk) 04:03, 23 July 2014 (UTC) Back to Breitbart.com as a reliable news sourceI strongly object to calling Breitbart.com a 'Conservative blog'. A 'blog' it is not. It has reporters, editors, and source of revenue. "Breitbart.com is a conservative news and opinion website founded in 2007 by Andrew Breitbart,"' says Wikipedia editors in Breitbart.com which is a better description. -- Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 04:35, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
But Shapiro is part of those "Other responses", so the section is as much about his opinion and the millions of conservatives his views represent as the Basic Instinct "Controversy" section (which isn't just about the gay protests, but various other topics too) is about opinions from gay activists and pundits like Camille Paglia. Again, the Paglia quote is sourced by her own book. In that case and Shapiro's such opinionated sources are fine as long as they're properly attributed, because policy considers people reliable for their own views, and a quote from someone is material about that someone (what he or she said) from a sourcing/policy standpoint, regardless of what the quote itself is about. As for Breitbart, while I disagree on the relevance of this, it's a news/opinion site classified as "news" by Alexa (currently ranked the #38 news site in the world), and most news sites have plenty of opinion/analysis segments anyway. Certainly some of the sources cited in the above Basic Instinct examples are opinionated, including the Paglia book. The section is explicitly about personal opinions, as is the America section in question. I've also seen no evidence that either Shapiro or Breitbart are "extremist" (certainly no more so than the gay activists and others quoted on the Basic Instinct page, or for that matter the extremely left wing reviewers quoted on the America page), and the only complaint about fact checking a poster presented here comes from the leftist opinion site Slate. That said, even if Breitbart was considered "questionable" for being opinionated (like Paglia's writing?), at most that would just mean that it would be a less than desirable source for facts about others, not material about itself like a quote of its own author's views. VictorD7 (talk) 17:27, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
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Featured Anarcho-capitalism article is being held captive to left-anarchist editors.
Anarcho-capitalist editors are underrepresented among so-called "anarchist" editors, and the latter (more properly "left-anarchists") have been holding the page captive for several months to inclusion of their POV about anarchism "proper". This does not necessarily imply that anarcho-capitalists are a documentable heterodoxy (which would be irrelevant anyway, since anCaps have no desire to be counted among them), nor that there even exists an official definition of "anarchy" (which, even if it were the case, would not apply to an article that is not about anarchism "proper"). The early POV subtly writes off anarcho-capitalism as "illegitimate".
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anarcho-capitalism&diff=607632560&oldid=607397020
Currently there is a NPOV tag gracing the article (which as of now is, I believe, npov)
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anarcho-capitalism&diff=616525121&oldid=616514970
and edit protection expired today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anarcho-capitalism&diff=618531990&oldid=616619670
While I have made every effort to resolve the conflict by attempting to clarify the nature of the dispute - not only in the body, but already in the lede - they insist that their definition of "anarchism" is "correct", since various prominent left-anarchists claim the title, and that said POV be included in the lede. My hope is that objectivity ultimately takes precedence over majoritarianism.
While I believe that mention of the conflict among anarchists need not be included in the lede in order to satisfy npov requirements, the following compromise text addresses the issue of definition to the extent possible in a few lines without compromising neutrality:
Anarcho-capitalists distinguish themselves from minarchists, who advocate a small night-watchman state limited to the function of individual protection, and traditional anarchists, who typically reject private property and market processes, in favor of collective ownership arrangements. In contrast to left-anarchists, who believe that economic relationships tend to be hierarchical, anarcho-capitalists believe that hierarchies can only be flattened in a naturally competitive marketplace to the extent that states and state-sponsored monopolies are abolished. As a result, there is disagreement between anarcho-capitalists and left-anarchists over the nature of "anarchy".
JLMadrigal (talk) 13:47, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
- Our friend JLMadrigal has put so much spin on the dispute that the true problem is blurred. JLMadrigal uses the label "Featured article" to lend an air of high respectability to the current version of the article, which is however very, very different from the 2006 FAR version, the version which resulted after a lot of different viewpoints were applied to the article during the 2006 FAR discussion. After the 2006 discussion, the article was eventually taken in hand by ancap adherents who gave it a much more subjective and promotional tone. This discussion started by JLMadrigal should instead have the heading Featured article Anarcho-capitalism has been changed to a subjective in-universe style and is being vigorously defended by adherents of a minor viewpoint.
- To anyone who asks nicely I will say that I am a fan of big government—a strong central government—for reasons having to do with historically ugly social problems such as racism, sexism, and economic inequality. So to find myself characterized by JLMadrigal as a "left-anarchist editor" is entertaining if not ridiculous. This shows the degree of WP:BATTLEGROUND attitude which has been applied by ancap adherents to the dispute. During the dispute, one such editor was blocked for 36 hours for "personal attacks, incivility and battleground behaviour". None of the mainstream editors was blocked.
- Instead of being a battle between ancaps and leftist anarchists, the problem here is one of the article having lost its former objectivity, having lost touch with the mainstream literature. The dispute is between ancap adherents and everybody else in the world, that is, the general mainstream viewpoint. The current dispute is about beginning to restore a mainstream viewpoint, and it is just a start. If ancap adherents are resisting this strongly then we have a real neutrality problem. Binksternet (talk) 17:22, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
- After briefly skimming the talk page for the article, it will become immediately apparent that the disputed text is just as I described it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Anarcho-capitalism JLMadrigal (talk) 00:49, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
- Furthermore, the article is just as worthy of the honor it has received - if not more so today - and continues to evolve. It is exemplary of encyclopedic text. JLMadrigal (talk) 11:13, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
- I suspect the phrasing of this thread as opened should clear up any confusion as to where the neutrality problems lie here. As noted, "neutrality" does not consist in having a page written to the perspective of adherents of the philosophy it describes (nor of course does it consist in having it written to the views of opponents – which no one is asking for). Instead it consists in having third-party description and analysis in reliable and authoritative sources noted and reflected with due weight, which is all that was being asked for here, in respect of simply one or two sentences, relating to the fundamental definition and classification of the topic. JLMadrigal also conveniently forgets to note that there was an RfC about the disputed text, which closed in favour of including it. Since then, they and "User:Knight of BAAWA" have tried to reignite a tedious edit war and to remove or change that text. People seeking relief really ought to come with clean hands, as they say in the legal world. And, finally, no, the article is not FA worthy. With or without the disputed content, it is badly written, sprawling, confusing, full of badly sourced material etc. After all the absurd fuss over this one sentence, I'm loath to institute another formal process in the form of an official FA review, but I'd happily have an FA reviewer look at it, even informally, and assess whether it is "exemplary of encyclopedic text". Oh, and I'm not an anarchist either. N-HH talk/edits 10:11, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
I am an involved editor who disagrees with JLMadrigal's portrayal of the situation. It appears that there are a few editors on the Anarcho-capitalism page who believe the subject needs to be composed from an anarcho-capitalist POV: [2] [3] [4]
The Talk page is also filled with uncivil remarks toward dissenters: [5] [6] [7]
These same editors have marked content removals—the same content in dispute—as minor edits: [8] [9]
Contrary to JLMadrigal's claim that we "insist that [our] definition of 'anarchism' is 'correct'", it is JLMadrigal who wants additions to be couched in his POV: [10]
When it comes to verifiability, robust secondary sources on anarchism explain that anarcho-capitalism is a relatively recent, US phenomenon that opposes much of traditional anarchist theory (see Peter Marshall's Demanding the Impossible: A History of Anarchism and Colin Ward's Anarchism: A Very Short Introduction; Daniel Guérin's Anarchism: From Theory to Practice, written in 1970, doesn't even mention anarcho-capitalists). This dispute is not about sources or relevance; it's about anarcho-capitalists wanting a fluff piece in place of an academic encyclopaedia. — MisterDub (talk | contribs) 15:10, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
And now, we have those same editors reverting inclusion of the disputed material after a RfC was closed in its favor. No discussion, just reverting. [11] [12] [13] — MisterDub (talk | contribs) 13:22, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Nor are the most comprehensive secondary sources on anarchism sufficient for Netoholic, who demands an extra guarantee that these sources aren't "cherry-picked". — MisterDub (talk | contribs) 15:23, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Exactly! We should not host a fluff piece as if it were Featured Article quality. Binksternet (talk) 16:37, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
- OK, back to the issue. Discussion of the debate among various anarchist strains IS included in the article. Not advancing it to the lede does not compromise neutrality. Further, a clear definition of the anarcho-capitalist philosophy is prerequisite to an understanding of the differences among the schools of thought in question. JLMadrigal (talk) 09:42, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
The headline of this section is basically correct. The fundamental problem with the (left-)Anarchists here is that they misunderstand, or are intentionally misrepresenting, the root word of "anarcho-capitalism" which is "anarchy" (a society which rejects rulers or governments), not "Anarchism" (the political movement). Anarcho-capitalists advocate anarchy, but do not claim to advocate for the Anarchist movement (which traditionally has been anti-capitalist). As far as I know, there is no AnCap literature that attempts to imply that AnCap is a sub-type of the Anarchist movement, so all this defensiveness from left-Anarchists is unwarranted... its pointless and misplaced to refute something which is not even being proposed. The issues here would clear up if, instead of trying to shoehorn even more anti-capitalist disagreement into an increasingly diluted and unclear article, we clarify the terminology and explain that the only thing AnCaps and Anarchists have in common is the desire for anarchy. Let this article stand on its own two feet and be a clear explanation of the philosophy, without putting tripwires of unfounded disagreement in every section which come off as Anarchists inserting "Nuh-uh!" every few lines. -- Netoholic @ 19:03, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- To rectify Netoholic's incorrect statements: 1) the root of both anarcho-capitalism and anarchism is ἀναρχία (anarchia), meaning "without rulers" or "without leaders" and 2) the article states clearly that the founder of anarcho-capitalism believes his philosophy to be the "true anarchism" ("In other words, we believe that capitalism is the fullest expression of anarchism, and anarchism is the fullest expression of capitalism. Not only are they compatible, but you can't really have one without the other. True anarchism will be capitalism, and true capitalism will be anarchism." [source]). — MisterDub (talk | contribs) 20:08, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Indeed. Its adherents make the claim, and the page as written clearly asserts anarcho-capitalism to be a form of anarchism (ie the political theory/movement, if we're going to get into semantics). Did people miss the huge "Anarchism" template plonked in the lead? Or the first sentence which explicitly says "also referred to a free-market anarchism, market anarchism .." etc? The idea that the page can state all that while ignoring the significant dispute over that classification/description noted in third-party objective sources beggars belief. Also, did people miss the fact that at least two people commenting here, myself included, have explicitly said they are not anarchists? The very fact that this is persistently being cast, by the latter, as a dispute between left-anarchist and right-libertarian editors is part of the problem and says more about those who seem, for some reason, to think that that is what is going on here than it does about those who are in fact arguing for genuine neutrality and objectivity. N-HH talk/edits 10:31, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- I guess I should state explicitly that I am a "left-anarchist" (not really a notable term, but whatever), but only added the article to my watchlist after witnessing the uncivil comments and battleground behavior from the three aforementioned editors (on 20 June 2014). — MisterDub (talk | contribs) 17:13, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Indeed. Its adherents make the claim, and the page as written clearly asserts anarcho-capitalism to be a form of anarchism (ie the political theory/movement, if we're going to get into semantics). Did people miss the huge "Anarchism" template plonked in the lead? Or the first sentence which explicitly says "also referred to a free-market anarchism, market anarchism .." etc? The idea that the page can state all that while ignoring the significant dispute over that classification/description noted in third-party objective sources beggars belief. Also, did people miss the fact that at least two people commenting here, myself included, have explicitly said they are not anarchists? The very fact that this is persistently being cast, by the latter, as a dispute between left-anarchist and right-libertarian editors is part of the problem and says more about those who seem, for some reason, to think that that is what is going on here than it does about those who are in fact arguing for genuine neutrality and objectivity. N-HH talk/edits 10:31, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- I'm fairly new to this debate and am neither an involved editor nor an anarchist of any sort. I'm puzzled by the notion that acknowledging that debate exists as to whether an-cap is an expression of anarchism amounts to an endorsement of the view that it is not anarchism (which is what the originator of this post seems to believe, though the originator apparently does NOT believe that all of the descriptors noted by N-HH above amount to an endorsement of the view that it IS anarchism). It appears that the argument against including the debate in the lead amounts to: "An-cap defines itself as anarchism, so its view and only its view should be reflected in the lead; reflecting any other views amounts to diluting the description of an-cap." But that (1) isolates the legitimate purpose of defining the topic to the exclusion of other purposes of the lead, which include "establish[ing] context"; and (2) assumes that NPOV requires that descriptions of an ideology are made only by adherents of that ideology. Both of these are counter to Wikipedia policies, as other editors have noted. Dyrnych (talk) 18:00, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
Agree with Binksternet
Binksternet is right. The issue is not one of so-called left-anarchists holding the article hostage, but of anarchocapitalists apparently demanding ownership of the article. The timing of this report shows evidence of forum shopping. A Request for Comments was open with two parts, one on an expansion of the article, and one on a sentence in the lede stating that other anarchists did not consider anarchocapitalism to be anarchism. On 25 July, I closed the RFC, with no consensus on A, and a weak yes on B, the sentence in the lede. The RFC was intended, like any RFC, to determine the consensus of the Wikipedia community, not of a political movement. On 26 July, after the RFC was closed, this report was opened. It appears that the right-anarchists or right-libertarians didn't like the consensus and chose to forum-shop rather than either to accept consensus or request closure review. At about this point, also, edit-warring began, and a Featured Article Review was initiated. In my opinion (and my involvement was limited to the closing of the RFC), the anarchocapitalists are seeking ownership of the article. At least the edit-warring appears to have ended. There was an RFC, and weak consensus has been determined, unless closure review is requested. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:19, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- Robert, I concur with your assessment; I am now curious as to what can be done about it. I asked an admin for assistance and was told that few of these NPOV noticeboard discussions receive official closure. If this is the case, how do we resolve this situation? — MisterDub (talk | contribs) 15:08, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
- A helpful measure would be topic bans for disruptive editors. Another would be for someone to rewrite the article in userspace, and initiate an RfC on the article talk page as to whether the mainspace article should be replaced with the user draft. Or this second suggestion could be implemented piecemeal such that specific sections of the article are tackled one by one. Binksternet (talk) 15:36, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
JLMadrigal on the issue of neutrality
If you review the article Anarcho-capitalism as it is written, without any prejudice, you will find that nothing in the lede in its current format is slanted away from the topic of anarcho-capitalism, and that other schools of thought are presented in the body in a neutral way. Currently there are neutrality tags on these sections that clearly don't belong there. The topic of left-anarchism needs to be treated (where it is relevant to an understanding of anarcho-capitalism) as an ideology distinct from anCap. Anarcho-capitalist never make the claim that anarcho-capitalism is part of the leftist school - as these editors posit. Anarcho-capitalists seek to eliminate the collectivist state. Left-anarchists seek to eliminate capital - which anarcho-capitalists believe would require a state. To anarcho-capitalists the premise of left-anarchism is contradictory (which is explored in the article along with the views of opposing schools). JLMadrigal (talk) 11:15, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, no one has argued that "anarcho-capitalism is part of the leftist school." That's absurd. — MisterDub (talk | contribs) 13:21, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
- JLMadrigal: is it your contention that the lead should reflect only views of an-cap that are held by its adherents? Dyrnych (talk) 16:13, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
- As I stated on the FAR, anarcho-capitalism is not presented as a "form of anarchism" in the lede. It would be premature to commence (much less settle) the argument before it is adequately presented. JLMadrigal (talk) 23:36, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
- The opening line of the lead reads, in relevant part: "Anarcho-capitalism (also referred to as free-market anarchism, market anarchism, private-property anarchism, libertarian anarchism)" (emphasis added). There is an anarchism sidebar on the article. I and other editors have noted that this does in fact present anarcho-capitalism as a form of anarchism. How would you characterize these indicia if not as presentation as anarchism? Dyrnych (talk) 04:25, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
- Capitalism is held, by Rothbard and others, to be the fullest expression of anarchism (and anarchism the fullest expression of capitalism) - which is discussed in the article. This concept (along with opposing concepts) is explored in detail in the body - once the anCap definitions of "anarchy" and "capitalism" (and opposing definitions) are clarified. JLMadrigal (talk) 11:50, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
- The opening line of the lead reads, in relevant part: "Anarcho-capitalism (also referred to as free-market anarchism, market anarchism, private-property anarchism, libertarian anarchism)" (emphasis added). There is an anarchism sidebar on the article. I and other editors have noted that this does in fact present anarcho-capitalism as a form of anarchism. How would you characterize these indicia if not as presentation as anarchism? Dyrnych (talk) 04:25, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
- As I stated on the FAR, anarcho-capitalism is not presented as a "form of anarchism" in the lede. It would be premature to commence (much less settle) the argument before it is adequately presented. JLMadrigal (talk) 23:36, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
Tagging
When an editor places a tag questioning the neutrality of an article, can the tag be removed if the editor does not engage in discussion on the reason for the tag or withdraws from the discussion for several weeks? Rev107 (talk) 01:18, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- The policy Wikipedia:NPOV dispute is detailed here. On the tag itself it clearly states "don't removed until dispute is resolved" So, no. I guess it is a matter of protocol that all editors should follow for the good of the project. Some editors obviously have no regard to policy nor respect for other editors.Mrm7171 (talk) 06:42, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- That's not correct, and Mrm7121 got a 6 month block for edit warring. Yes, if the editor doesn't give reasons for the tag it can be removed. If the discussion is abandoned it can also be removed - it can always be restored if the discussion is renewed. Abandoning a discussion can be one form of resolution, otherwise a tag might have to stay on forever. In addition, I don't see that a single editor who simply won't change their mind can hold an article for ransom. Dougweller (talk) 09:47, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Occupational Health Psychology article grossly biased
The occupational health psychology article is grossly biased in mine and other independent editor's opinion. I have tried discussing issues on the talk page, to no avail.
4 months ago, a number of independent editors had all agreed that the article needed to be completely re-written. Nothing was ever done. I have tried to detail my concerns as per Wikipedia policy, again, to no avail. Some of the main reasons why I believe it to be biased and written from a POV perspective are these: It is a non-neutral article, that does not fairly represent the balance of perspectives of high-quality, reliable secondary sources. No other editors can add reliably sourced material, without it being blocked by iss246 & colleague psyc12. It has been written solely from a USA perspective, from a USA OHP Society perspective only, without providing a worldwide view on the topic. It does not present the controversies surrounding OHP. Controversies of origin and overlap. Presents OHP as a distinct field within psychology. It does not give due weight to other reliable secondary sources. Points of view are not recognized internationally within the psychology community. I tried adding alternate titles, as is commonly found in other Wikipedia, (also known as occupational health: psychology and management 'United Kingdom' and occupational health, safety and well being psychology 'Australia'). But iss246 quicly censored these reliably sourced, neutral titles also. Posting here is a last resort. This extremely controversial coatrack article desperately needs to be entirely re-written, or even deleted?Mrm7171 (talk) 01:44, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- This "occupational health psychology (OHP)" seems to be about the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health type in particular. If that's the case, it should be US-centric, because that's a US federal agency. If the article is meant to have a broader scope, the definition in the lead shouldn't be sourced to the American one. I've explicitly mentioned NIOSH in the lead now, to give context. That doesn't mean I think it should be that way, but if it is, it should be clear. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:07, July 30, 2014 (UTC)
- I totally agree and the change is fine with me. The whole article is written from a USA perspective. I just added the UK and Australian titles often used. Hope this brings some solution at least to the different titles used worldwide. However the US definition remains a major concern if the article does not clearly specify it is a US-centric article only.Mrm7171 (talk) 02:13, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- In a sense, a lot of the content isn't particular to one state or the other. It's more about very specific groups of humans that other specific people observe and report upon, hoping to gain insight into general human behaviour. If other governments have similar concepts, I'd think they'd be deserving of their own articles, but it's not like Australians or Cameroonians can't learn something here.
- I totally agree and the change is fine with me. The whole article is written from a USA perspective. I just added the UK and Australian titles often used. Hope this brings some solution at least to the different titles used worldwide. However the US definition remains a major concern if the article does not clearly specify it is a US-centric article only.Mrm7171 (talk) 02:13, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- A problem I've noticed is the article tends to relay what studies "suggest" as what studies "show" instead. You can't learn anything for sure about the US (or Zaire or Italy) by looking at a sample. It's a little more complicated than just changing those words, more of a running theme here. But I'll change those exact words, for now. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:25, July 30, 2014 (UTC)
- Fair points. I'm also wondering why entire sections (eg.Occupational stress and 'cardiovascular disease') of the article are based solely on research quoted from other disciplines, while the authors of this article refer to this research as being "OHP research" or "OHP researchers" etc. Examples are research drawn from separate fields such as occupational medicine? Also, as far as I can tell, the field began in 1990? (it looks like)? but again, the 2 main article authors psyc12 & iss246 quote research from decades before even, and again call it OHP research? Anyway, I'm not sure if I'm missing something here? Would appreciate other editors points of view. I would really like to work through these issues and bring the article up to standard, if possible.Mrm7171 (talk) 02:35, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- The term OHP is not just American, but it is used/recognized throughout the world, e.g., the UK journal Work & Stress refers to occupational health psychologists on the inside cover. NIOSH cannot be equated with OHP--it is just a government funding agency that has funded some OHP grants in the U.S. There is no NIOSH, Society of OHP or American-specific versions of OHP, and this OHP article includes references from all over the world.
- InedibleHulk. I would delete mention of APA and NIOSH in the opening paragraph of the article. Their involvement in OHP is just in the U.S.--they had nothing to do with development of the field in Europe and elsewhere. It adds clutter to the opening which is rather cluttered now, and there's repetition between the first and second paragraphs. The article now mentions them in the history section, which seems to best place. Psyc12 (talk) 13:46, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- I totally disagree. I think this edit is fine. It also highlights the obvious point that this article is almost entirely USA-centric. NIOSH, CDC. You and your close friend/colleague outside of Wikipedia, have authored this grossly biased article from start to finish. You are both from the US OHP society. How on earth is this article representative of a worldwide view psyc12?Mrm7171 (talk) 14:24, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- The OHP entry is built on research from Sweden, the UK, the Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland, Finland, Canada, the US, and elsewhere. The entry is not narrowly focused on a US point of view. I remind readers that US researchers, like researchers in other countries, do not have one point of view on any topic. That the definition from the CDC was settled 7 months ago. Iss246 (talk) 15:05, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Again I ask why entire sections (eg.the Occupational stress and 'cardiovascular disease' header) of the article are based solely on research quoted from other disciplines, while the authors of this article refer to this research as being "OHP research" or "OHP researchers" etc. Examples are research drawn from separate fields such as occupational medicine?
- I answer your question. Occupational medicine has traditionally been concerned with physical factors that affect health (e.g., heavy lifting; exposure to toxic chemicals). OHP is concerned with psychosocial factors that affect health (e.g., decision latitude; the supportiveness of coworkers). Iss246 (talk) 03:59, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Psyc12 & iss246. These 2 questions/points are left unanswered still? They are in addition to the other clear points above that I have specifically detailed, outlining exactly why I believe the article is biased. However you both keep avoiding answering them and then say I don't give reasons why I believe the article is biased? Very odd. Will await your detailed reply please. As a courtesy please don't remove correct tags from the article until these issues are fully resolved.Mrm7171 (talk) 00:16, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Mrm7171. Research on OHP topics is done by people in different disciplines. For example, Tores Theorell is a Swedish physician who does research on occupational stress and health. Citing him in the article does not reflect an American bias--he's not an American. As for work prior to 1990, the study of OHP topics goes back well before the term came into use. Barling (a South African now in Canada) and Christie in their "A Short History of Occupational Health Psychology" (In A-S Antoniou & Cooper New Directions in Organizational Psychology and Behavioral Medicine) traced some "of the most seminal contributions to the field" that predate 1990. This included Robert Kahn's work on occupational stress in the 1960s, Jeffrey Greenhaus and Nicholas Beutell's work and family conflict in the 1980s, and Dov Zohar's work on occupational safety climate in 1980.
- Citing work outside of psychology or work published prior to 1990 does not constitute an American or Society of Occupational Health Psychology bias. Furthermore, you have not given us any evidence that such biases in fact exist. Apparently, Houdmont and Leka (from the UK) don't seem to think it exists. They say in their 2010 book Occupational Health Psychology, "debate on the nature and scope of OHP has crystallized and consensus has developed among academics and practitioners on its aims and objectives" p. 2 and later "despite the absence of a shared heritage across the international OHP community, broad agreement on the nature of the discipline can be found in the definitions advanced by the discipline's European and North American representative bodies." p. 5.Psyc12 (talk) 12:51, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Mrm7171 was blocked for six months for edit warring. Dougweller (talk) 09:50, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- a similar discussion is being held at wikiproject medicine and relates to health care planning. certainly important to include other countries perspectives in articles is it not. looks like this article is based on the united states of america and does not include other countries. niosh is a united states of america organisation like the editor pointed out above. reading through this debate seems like the issue is that it has been written only from that perspective. maybe this could be stated more clearly.Docsim (talk) 01:42, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- Mrm7171 was blocked for six months for edit warring. Dougweller (talk) 09:50, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
This article appears very biased:
- Anonymous editors constantly add US organisations to the article, like the FBI and NSA, without supporting citations.
- I've only been able to verify a handful of obvious examples. I've even included quotes in citations.
- The article seems to cry out for a complete overhaul, despite attempting to draft a general definition (e.g. forced disappearances, arbitrary detention).
- I feel that in the worst case scenario, the article may never satisfy WP:NPOV, possibly making it eligible for deletion.
I've stopped editing that article pending further opinion from here. --Marianian(talk) 09:04, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
- Articles about secret things are inherently hard to verify. Once we start learning more, they stop being secret and disappear (from the article). If we don't mention them in the article, they remain secret and disappear (from Wikipedia). I think the title of the article is disclaimer enough, though yeah, its existence is a bit of a pickle. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:34, August 2, 2014 (UTC)
- The current concept of the article seems to blur the line between unanimously agreed "secret police" organisations like the Stasi of East Germany and intelligence organisations with merely questionable practices, bearing in mind that the term "secret police" isn't usually taken literally. I think this article isn't getting the right attention, especially when it is vulnerable to alternative theories that don't have the approval of even the most reputable of human rights organisation possible. --Marianian(talk) 18:53, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- The article does not provide and I cannot find any literature about "secret police", just articles about secret police in different countries. We need to find a body of literature before we can determine which organizations belong. And we cannot provide a list unless we do that. The list is therefore OR and should be deleted. TFD (talk) 17:13, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Women in science
Hi fellow editors. I am wondering if this article titled Women in science is expressing a POV or NPOV. I just read some interesting comments on the talk page and although I disagree with the editor stating it is POV I thought it may be good to get other peoples opinion on the article itself. As a woman and a scientist I think that the article is worthwhile. Thanks to any one who offers comments in advance.Docsim (talk) 13:05, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- i have noticed no comments on this topic so far. on that article page there is another editor complaining that there is no equivalent men in science article. not sure if this whole issue is too controversial? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Docsim (talk • contribs) 01:49, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- There doesn't seem to be any current controversy. That single talk page comment from an IP is from November of last year; I think the concern has been responded to adequately on the talk page, at this point. I don't see any serious challenge to the article as a whole, as it represents a neutral description of clear and source-recognized academic topic, based on and sourced to wide range of published and cited work from better academic sources.__ E L A Q U E A T E 18:40, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Docsim - seems somewhat POV to me, but mostly it seems rambling about things instead of describing the field of study or presenting RS positions with cites in proportion. The Talk has some mentions of POV concerns, mainly whether this is a topic suitable for article, whether the lead is stating opinion as fact, whether the image is misleading, and it doesn't help give impression of neutrality to have a big feminism symbol. I would look for opposing views fairly stated with proportion, but it does not seem to have enough focus or substance for that kind of a check so again I'm more at the concern that it lacks substance other than a lengthy list of names which seems better done by the Category:Women_Scientists. Markbassett (talk) 03:51, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
- thanks for your comments. could you please explain where/why you believe this article is POV. those other comments from last year also did not explain why or how the article was POV. i don't know how to replace the symbol. will check it again, was not aware it was a feminism symbol in any case. also you mentioned if it was a topic suitable for an article, I think it is at least.Docsim (talk) 04:15, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
Israel/Gaza RFC
The following RFC could use additional input and may be of interest to the members of this noticeboard Talk:2014_Israel–Gaza_conflict#RFC Gaijin42 (talk) 17:32, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
Abiogenesis: hypothetical science, or proven fact?
The opening sentence of the Abiogenesis article treats abiogenesis as a proven fact, calling it a "natural process". Yet the article itself says abiogenesis was originally coined as a 'hypothesis' and that 'There is still no "standard model"' for the theory, listing many alternative hypotheses for how abiogenisis might have happened. In other words, several competing hypotheses prove abiogenesis is not hypothetical!? How does that make sense?
If abiogenesis has been scientifically proven by observed processes, and we now have proof how non-living matter became living matter, then this needs to be made clear in the article and all the incorrect, outdated hypotheses need to labeled so. If, however, abiogenesis has not been scientifically established and remains theoretical (as would seem to be the case), then the opening sentence of the article needs to indicate that it is hypothetical science (much like, say, the article for Dark Matter).
I tried to raise this concern in the talk section and was accused of trying to promote a non-neutral agenda! On the contrary! I am trying to promote neutrality and honesty. I assert that the article is NOT neutral and its opening sentence is the result of unscientific personal bias akin to superstition. Grand Dizzy (talk) 15:11, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- From reading the article, it seems that abiogenesis is accepted as something that occurs in nature, but there are competing theories as to exactly how it occurs. In other words... abiogenesis is accepted as being fact, but there is disagreement in the scientific community as to the details of abiogenesis. Correct me if I have it wrong... it isn't my field. Blueboar (talk) 15:35, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- Agree. Abiogenesis is a fact (the two alternatives are no life ever, which I refute by example) or life forever (which conflicts with e.g. the Big Bang scenario). How exactly it happened is something we don't know yet. But then there is very little that we know exactly (we are lacking e.g. a unified theory of quantum gravity, without which very little in this universe is understood "exactly"). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:50, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Agree with Blueboar and Stephan Schulz. Grand Dizzy asked, on the talk page, when abiogenesis was proved to be categorically true. Stephan Schulz has provided a proof that, if the Big Bang theory is correct, abiogenesis is also categorically true. There are fringe theories that life on Earth came from somewhere else rather than by abiogenesis on Earth, but they still imply abiogenesis somewhere. Grand Dizzy's comments should not have been hatted. The hatting of those comments, even if they proceeded from a misunderstanding, was quite out of line, and should be reversed. It was a valid question. (More generally, in my opinion, some editors are 'far too willing to hat comments that they would rather not address.) Robert McClenon (talk) 16:10, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Related discussion on George M. Church
...is taking place at the COI Noticeboard here, [14]. It is a thorny issue, of a Harvard Prof and wife contributing two thirds of all article content on the Prof (including a 2013 edit that more than doubled the biographical content of the article), and basing primacy of discovery claims on the Prof's own published primary sources (raising COI/POV issues, but also OR issues in the editor's choosing between primary sources). A further issue is the overly positive tone of their article, and the lack of substantive coverage of controversies engendered by the Prof's statements and writings. Please chime in there if non-independence/autobiographical matters (or original research in science writing) is in your area of WP expertise or interest. Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 22:47, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Malaysian Airways Flight MH 17
I wish to raise concerns about Stickee who appears to be using the lead to give the impression that the airliner was brought down by Pro-Russian separatists when in fact an investigation is under way. They are taking sources which report 'beliefs' and trying to present these as though they are established facts. It really would take too much time to argue with him. A balanced opening should begin with facts and then have claim and coutner claim, that's neutral and responsible. Please intervene. See talk and recent edits on this article Sceptic1954 (talk) 09:55, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- First things first, it's Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, not "Malaysian Airways".
- I absolutely agree that factual and objective coverage is the way to go here. But I'm just as convinced it can't possibly happen. Theoretically, sure. But it goes way beyond Stickee, Wikipedia, this plane or any one state's disinformation machine. I suggest surrender. InedibleHulk (talk) 10:19, August 6, 2014 (UTC)
- The bulk of reliable sources favor the widely held opinion that MH17 was shot down with a Buk missile from rebel-held territory. The sources that claim otherwise are generally the Russian media and some conspiracy-oriented web papers in the West. There is considerable opposition on the article's talk page to inclusion of any suspected cause for MH17's crash on the grounds that "not all the facts are in", etc. This is false balance and contrary to the guidelines. WP is not a court, there is no due process here, and this isn't a BLP article. There is no good reason to avoid including facts that are widely covered by RS. Self-censorship on those grounds is a terrible idea and contrary to the way we do things here. I do not oppose including Russian perspectives on the matter, but we should not even consider censoring the views of Western governments when those seem to dominate RS, whether it's for "fairness" or "world peace" or any of the other suggestions that have been floated there in the short existence of the article. Geogene (talk) 18:21, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Tendentious editing on Sex at Dawn
User:Pengortm is engaged in tendentious editing at Sex at Dawn. For instance, he added an Amazon.com review by Herbert Gintis to the article, but even though the review is mixed (3/5 stars), presented only the negative parts of it. I attempted to balance things out by adding the positive remarks (As you can see for yourselves, Gintis disagrees with their prescriptive claims, and thinks their writing/research style was amateurish, but nonetheless thinks their factual conclusions are spot-on and that the book is worth reading). My addition of these points was reverted by Pengortm, based on the straw-man argument that what Gintis thought of their writing style is irrelevant.
Additionally, though a positive review of the book by primatologist Eric Michael Johnson was added to the article, he is only described as a "graduate student in history of sciences." My attempts to note his training in primatology have been repeatedly reverted (most recently by Pengortm). The only explanation given for this is that, because another reviewer who is a grad student is described as a grad student, Johnson should be too. This reasoning is obviously erroneous because Johnson, unlike the other guy (who has no degree but his BA), has a master's degree in evolutionary anthropology (with a concentration in primatology), and he earned it from a top-tier university (University of British Columbia).
I'm at my wit's end here and I would like some editors who have no dog in this fight to intervene. Steeletrap (talk) 04:54, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- I welcome further input from other editors on this. No doubt what we have could use further improvement and other perspectives. As I think you can see from the talk page and revision history comments from me and the other editors, these points have been very clearly discussed. It would be helpful if Steeletrap would read these explanations and engage with the editors on the talk page in a collaborative fashion (e.g. the other graduate student clearly has a masters degree as well and I noted this and linked to the information on the talk page). Please let me know if I can provide further information or explanations to help out on this. Thank you. --Pengortm (talk) 05:50, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- Where do you say this on the talk page? If he has a Master's in psychology or anthropology, we should describe him as a psychologist or an anthropologist. But I don't think he does. Steeletrap (talk) 06:02, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sex_at_Dawn#Johnson_paragraph and then I mentioned that this was already discussed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sex_at_Dawn#Johnson_paragraph- As I pointed out already on the talk page, I don't have any strong commitments to describing them as graduate students or not--just that we keep things balanced in our descriptions. Similarly, you will see that other editors and I have engaged in discussion about whether an Amazon review is a reliable source. We would have welcomed your input in that discussion (and still do) and I think it would have been more collaborative to take part in that discussion rather than simply deleting a source we had discussed the merits of already on the talk page. --Pengortm (talk) 06:10, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- Where do you say this on the talk page? If he has a Master's in psychology or anthropology, we should describe him as a psychologist or an anthropologist. But I don't think he does. Steeletrap (talk) 06:02, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- As an involved editor I would like to second User:Pengortm's comments. Several editors have been discussing the sources used and best way forward regarding this page. However, User:Steeletrap has been largely absent from the discussion. The user has removed discussed changes a number of times, but has so far not engaged on the question of using self-published reviews by experts in the field such as Gintis (see: Talk:Sex at Dawn#Other potential sources to add in to the reactions by relevant experts section), or how to describe the "grad students'" credentials (Talk:Sex at Dawn#Johnson paragraph). There is a clear trail of comments on the talk page, but Steeletrap is largely absent, except suddenly in parallel to this complaint. To suddenly report "tendentious" editing here after being mostly absent from the discussion is not collegiate or constructive IMO. Peregrine981 (talk) 10:36, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- We should note the credentials of both Johnson and Ellsworth (I'm sorry for missing your talk page comments in this regard). However, I am still very troubled by the removal of the positive material from the (mixed, 3/5 star) Amazon.com review. Can you explain the rationale for that? Steeletrap (talk) 16:25, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- That discussion may be best held at the talk page rather than here IMO, as surely it does not warrant the attention of outside observers? Suffice to say here, that I am more than happy to have that discussion. Peregrine981 (talk) 17:23, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- We should note the credentials of both Johnson and Ellsworth (I'm sorry for missing your talk page comments in this regard). However, I am still very troubled by the removal of the positive material from the (mixed, 3/5 star) Amazon.com review. Can you explain the rationale for that? Steeletrap (talk) 16:25, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- As an involved editor I would like to second User:Pengortm's comments. Several editors have been discussing the sources used and best way forward regarding this page. However, User:Steeletrap has been largely absent from the discussion. The user has removed discussed changes a number of times, but has so far not engaged on the question of using self-published reviews by experts in the field such as Gintis (see: Talk:Sex at Dawn#Other potential sources to add in to the reactions by relevant experts section), or how to describe the "grad students'" credentials (Talk:Sex at Dawn#Johnson paragraph). There is a clear trail of comments on the talk page, but Steeletrap is largely absent, except suddenly in parallel to this complaint. To suddenly report "tendentious" editing here after being mostly absent from the discussion is not collegiate or constructive IMO. Peregrine981 (talk) 10:36, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- I should note that User:Gadly Circus who seems not to have the permissions to comment on this page has none the less commented on the situation, here and would like those comments taken into account. Peregrine981 (talk) 17:26, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- Pengortm is adding too much unencyclopedic content especially in the coverage of the criticism. It all needs to be condensed. Pengortm has split the criticism into ever expanding different sections and wants to cover it even more exhaustively; he is suggesting further elaboration with bullet points. Peregrine981 is also still adding to the size of the sections. Any real notability that this popular science book has lies in its evolutionary thesis ("Like bonobos and chimps, we are the randy descendents of hypersexual ancestors.") being accepted by academic evolutionists.Overagainst (talk) 18:02, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
- I think you can find both Peregrine981 and I expressing a similar concern about the length of this section on the talk page and in edit comments and we are trying to figure out a way to boil things down in a good way. Any suggestions on how to go about this or sources that should not be there? Some more specifics would be helpful--and unless you think this is a POV concern, this discussion would be best to take place on the article talk page.--Pengortm (talk) 21:10, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
- It is, to me at least, difficult to follow what is is actually going on in Talk, but you don't seem to be trying to boil things down anywhere I can see. On 4 Aug you started Sentence in the lead summarizing reception by scholars 5 Aug you started the topic 'Other potential sources to add in to the reactions by relevant experts section. Also on the 5 Aug you started the Johnson paragraph section which is just 4 seperate posts from you Pengortm, and there are a lot of abstruse issues about professional qualifications, status, publishing and exactly how they should be described. There were similar edits by you on the article about the the author of Sex at Dawn Christopher Ryan (author)'s page like this. These kind of bikeshed discussions are indicative of a POV.Overagainst (talk) 10:19, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
- Yes--lots of proverbial ink has been spilled discussing this. I'm having trouble seeing a way around this if we are to openly discuss and try to get the best solutions--especially when there are points of contention. Do you have any more specific suggestions on better ways I and other editors should be utilizing the talk page? I'm having trouble deriving anything actionable out of your above point. Also, I continue to welcome input from you on how we should condense the criticism section as you suggested above before switching your critique to how the talk page is used. --Pengortm (talk) 19:18, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
- Looks like Sockpuppet Overagainst will not be responding here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Pass_a_Method --Pengortm (talk) 23:54, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
- I've managed to establish I'm me. Pengortm, Talk pages are where ideas are discussed and there should be no problem with thoroughgoing debate. If you wish a practical suggestion: the article should be concise. It isn't, because you're adding wafflely accounts of the reaction to the book, instead of condensing it down to encyclopedic content. 20:43, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
- Again, I agree that it would be better if we can make it more concise and efficient without losing balance and the jist of things. Looking forward to working with you as you come up with concrete suggestions about how to do this--or perhaps I'll find time to do it at some point.--Pengortm (talk) 05:15, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
- I've managed to establish I'm me. Pengortm, Talk pages are where ideas are discussed and there should be no problem with thoroughgoing debate. If you wish a practical suggestion: the article should be concise. It isn't, because you're adding wafflely accounts of the reaction to the book, instead of condensing it down to encyclopedic content. 20:43, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
- It is, to me at least, difficult to follow what is is actually going on in Talk, but you don't seem to be trying to boil things down anywhere I can see. On 4 Aug you started Sentence in the lead summarizing reception by scholars 5 Aug you started the topic 'Other potential sources to add in to the reactions by relevant experts section. Also on the 5 Aug you started the Johnson paragraph section which is just 4 seperate posts from you Pengortm, and there are a lot of abstruse issues about professional qualifications, status, publishing and exactly how they should be described. There were similar edits by you on the article about the the author of Sex at Dawn Christopher Ryan (author)'s page like this. These kind of bikeshed discussions are indicative of a POV.Overagainst (talk) 10:19, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
- I think you can find both Peregrine981 and I expressing a similar concern about the length of this section on the talk page and in edit comments and we are trying to figure out a way to boil things down in a good way. Any suggestions on how to go about this or sources that should not be there? Some more specifics would be helpful--and unless you think this is a POV concern, this discussion would be best to take place on the article talk page.--Pengortm (talk) 21:10, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
- Pengortm is adding too much unencyclopedic content especially in the coverage of the criticism. It all needs to be condensed. Pengortm has split the criticism into ever expanding different sections and wants to cover it even more exhaustively; he is suggesting further elaboration with bullet points. Peregrine981 is also still adding to the size of the sections. Any real notability that this popular science book has lies in its evolutionary thesis ("Like bonobos and chimps, we are the randy descendents of hypersexual ancestors.") being accepted by academic evolutionists.Overagainst (talk) 18:02, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
- I should note that User:Gadly Circus who seems not to have the permissions to comment on this page has none the less commented on the situation, here and would like those comments taken into account. Peregrine981 (talk) 17:26, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
RfC
This RfC might be of interest to people here. It is more of a WP:UNDUE rather than WP:NPOV issue, but the two are somewhat related. Kingsindian (talk) 21:45, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
Has a current RfC on the expertise of A.A. Gill to write a review of the museum. The material was deleted from "criticism" and is now in the "In the Media" section. Outside eyes are invited to note whether the A. A. Gill paragraph meets WP:NPOV. Cheers. Collect (talk) 21:21, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
- Is the concern the paragraph itself, or the section in which it now occurs? I ask because of the context. The section includes media portrayals that are sympathetic as well as critical, and if there are other sympathetic media portrayals, it might be better to add those, than to delete the critical ones. In evaluating WP:NPOV for this particular page, I think that WP:VALID and WP:FRINGE are also applicable. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:33, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
- The actual source is (in your edit) described as "sarcastic." I happen to think sarcastic sources are not precisely the best sources for NPOV, nor does "it is a fringe topic" allow violating NPOV last I checked.
- Are you asserting that
- In February 2010, Vanity Fair magazine sent critic A. A. Gill and actor Paul Bettany (who portrayed Charles Darwin in the film Creation) to visit the museum on the 150th anniversary of the publication of On the Origin of Species. Gill wrote a scathingly sarcastic account' of his visit: "now seems like a good time to see what the world looks like without the benefit of science. Or spectacles... Adam comes on looking like the Hispanic bass player for a Janis Joplin backup band, with a lot of hair and a tan... And he has what looks suspiciously like a belly button."[1]
- Are you asserting that
- ^ GILL, A.A. (2010-02-01). "Roll Over, Charles Darwin!". Vanity Fair. Retrieved August 17, 2014.
- comports with the policy of WP:NPOV, or that the topic is simply not subject to WP:NPOV because the "Creation Museum" is so fringe as to not be subject to WP:NPOV? By the way, the section contains 31 llines of clear criticis,m .. and six lines comprising:
- An 2008 episode in the first season of the TLC reality series 17 Kids and Counting (now known as 19 Kids and Counting) features the Duggar family's trip to the museum, including a personal tour they were given by Ken Ham.[128] Jim Bob Duggar, the family patriarch, said, "We wanted to bring our family here to teach our children about creation and to show them all these great exhibits of how the world was created, and also to reinforce to them the fallacies of evolution and how it was impossible for this world just to all happen by chance."[129] The episode featured interviews with several of the Duggar children, who made statements supportive of young Earth creationism, as well as other museum visitors who expressed skepticism and disbelief at the museum's claims.[130] The Washington Times reported that the episode's airing "sparked reaction on both sides of the cultural debate" on Internet message boards.[131]
- Which does not appear on its face to be excessively pro-Creation Museum as far as I can tell, nor is it particularly a "sympathetic media portrayal", but apparently counts as "praise" per your comment on balance here. I am absolutely not a creationist, but NPOV does not say we ought to bash them either. Collect (talk) 22:51, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
- You might better help editors who look at your post by not putting in bold font things that are not originally in bold font, so that those editors can decide for themselves. It sounds to me like you are arguing that the "sarcastic" source has a POV. It does. That does not violate NPOV, when we attribute the POV to the source. And your line-count seems to me to go against WP:VALID. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:59, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
- comports with the policy of WP:NPOV, or that the topic is simply not subject to WP:NPOV because the "Creation Museum" is so fringe as to not be subject to WP:NPOV? By the way, the section contains 31 llines of clear criticis,m .. and six lines comprising:
- I don't see where there's a violation of NPOV here. There would be one if this was a case of trying to shoehorn obscure criticism into the article or give a particular piece of criticism undue prominence. But, compared to the other sources used in the section (for example, a college radio show and a reality TV show on TLC), an article by a well-known critic in Vanity Fair is not obscure and, since less space is devoted to it than any other source in the section, it doesn't seem to have been given undue prominence. I'd question, though, whether "sarcastic" is an appropriate characterisation for WP - skim-reading the source, I can't see any actual sarcasm in it. Formerip (talk) 23:21, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks! I've subsequently added the museum founder's response to what Gill said. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:31, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
- And, per what you said about "sarcastic", I changed it to "mocking". --Tryptofish (talk) 23:41, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
- Wikipedia's voice needs to be neutral and the "scathingly mocking" portion is a violation of NPOV. It suffices just to include that Gill wrote/said, we don't have to invoke WP:Editorial to characterize what he wrote as mockery or sarcasm. How would people against Gill's point of view feel if we characterized Ken Ham's response as "pathetic excuse making"?Scoobydunk (talk) 01:10, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
- That's a good point, and you've made me change my mind about it. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:14, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
- Wikipedia's voice needs to be neutral and the "scathingly mocking" portion is a violation of NPOV. It suffices just to include that Gill wrote/said, we don't have to invoke WP:Editorial to characterize what he wrote as mockery or sarcasm. How would people against Gill's point of view feel if we characterized Ken Ham's response as "pathetic excuse making"?Scoobydunk (talk) 01:10, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
- Now, I have some concerns of my own. Editors seem to be battling over whether or not Gill is a Christian, and whether or not he is "notorious". --Tryptofish (talk) 20:37, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
- The source an editor used for saying Gill is a Christian is specifically about him being a "notorious" restaurant critic (wording from the Guardian, which is the source proffered). If we use one claim (actually an aside) from a source, it is hard to deny the primary claims in the same source. Collect (talk) 20:48, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
- So, you started this post at NPOVN, but now you are OK with summing up a living person as "notorious". --Tryptofish (talk) 20:56, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
- "'Notorious' critic" is not the same as implying he is a criminal of some sort. In fact it appears Gill quite relishes his reputation. If the source is used in a Wikipedia article, we do not "pick and choose" to elide parts of it that do not fit a desired outcome. We are stuck with the entire source, warts and all. Collect (talk) 22:30, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
- He was a restaurant critic, and is now a contributing editor to Vanity Fair. We don't describe John Boehner as a bartender just because he once was one. TFD (talk) 21:06, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
- If Boehner still tended bar - he would be a bartender. Gill remains a restaurant critic. Actively such. VF is a side job. [15] at least as of yesterday. Collect (talk) 22:30, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
- I see the problem as being one of relevance and NPOV. People can merit all sorts of titles, but the titles that should be used are the ones that are relevant to the topic/article. Is this topic about food? No, so it doesn't matter that Gill was/is a food critic. People can be fathers, brothers, friends, siblings, chefs, critics, hobbyists, entertainers, jerks, so on and so forth, that doesn't mean all of those descriptors deserve inclusion into the article. The ones that do are the ones relevant and, in this capacity, Gill is acting as a journalist for vanity fair. Any other irrelevant descriptors can be seen as violations of WP:NPOV as they'd carry a certain stigma. For example, for Laura Bush quotes, if we always described her as "person killer, Laura Bush" then it would carry a clear connotation and affect the neutrality in how readers review her quote. Describing Gill as a "food critic" can cause readers to have a negative perception of his opinion because they'd feel he's not qualified to make such observations.Scoobydunk (talk) 23:02, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
- If Boehner still tended bar - he would be a bartender. Gill remains a restaurant critic. Actively such. VF is a side job. [15] at least as of yesterday. Collect (talk) 22:30, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
- So, you started this post at NPOVN, but now you are OK with summing up a living person as "notorious". --Tryptofish (talk) 20:56, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
- The source an editor used for saying Gill is a Christian is specifically about him being a "notorious" restaurant critic (wording from the Guardian, which is the source proffered). If we use one claim (actually an aside) from a source, it is hard to deny the primary claims in the same source. Collect (talk) 20:48, 18 August 2014 (UTC)