# User talk:Paul August

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## Distracting animation at Euclid algorithm

I was VERY bold (as much to make a point and get some dialog going) and pasted in some still drawings in the lead. I hate to muck with a FA, but I'm sorry, IMHO that animation is worse than useless, it's so distracting I don't want to read the lead, plus it delivers no information (and apparently the information is wrong, or misleading per dialog just above my posting on the talk page. Anyway I saw you felt the same way back in 2009, just wanted to let you know I support your opinion. There's some really interesting math going on once a person realizes how the proof works, but you can't find it from that animation. Bill Wvbailey (talk) 17:09, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

It got reverted quickly, which was no surprise. I put it back, but I'm sure it will be gone in an hour. BillWvbailey (talk) 18:19, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

I've made a comment on the talk page. Paul August 19:01, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

## Linear Algebra Article

Hi Paul, you reverted my Linear Algebra edit. I respect your opinion but I spent some time rewording the introduction and I would appreciate some feedback where you thought my editing was not clear. Personally I think the article could use a lot of improvement, and I've made a post on the talk page about this. Loadedsalt (talk) 23:26, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Ok, I'll respond on the talk page, when I get a chance (I'm traveling all day today). Paul August 10:58, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

## Thanks for the help and the welcome!

Since most of what I do here is copy editing, I'm particularly pleased to be directed to the style manual.

Surely I've mentioned to you that I was surprised to learn that I know two categorical topologists. Unless, of course, another of those cognitive lapses has occurred.

Best, M. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Douglas Michael Massing (talkcontribs) 03:19, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

p.s. Glancing over some recent items here, I found myself asking: If Jesus was Jewish, does it follow that he is a figure in Jewish mythology? ;^) Michael (talk) 03:34, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Knowing two categorical topologists is surprising, who is the other? You probably told me, but if so I've forgotten. Paul August 12:50, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
David Farris is completing a PhD at Berkeley, if memory serves. He is also a student of Urdu and an aficionado of Bollywood film and the culture(s) related to both. He has a presence amongst my friends at Facebook, where I understand you do not tread, on Live Journal, and perhaps other places. Ah, of course there's his page at Berkeley. I'd forgotten he'd been mayor of Cambridge. ;^) Please excuse me if I've got his field wrong. Remember, my class is the one that never quite made it to calculus. Best, Michael (talk) 08:38, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
He looks a bit different than the Anthony Galluccio (good guy bad driver) I know.

## I am astonished at lack of an entry for diseasome.

I am astonished at lack of an entry for diseasome. Best, Michael (talk) 20:58, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

WP:SOFIXIT ;-) Paul August 22:00, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
Heh. Phooey! I thought you might be inspired. Alas, I can only write for money these days. I'm sure someone will fill the gap. Best, Michael (talk) 09:28, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

## Persephone

I see that this article, which is currently being radically restructured, is on your Watchlist. I shall remove it from mine, as vetting the diffs wears my patience and I trust your judgment that nothing of value is being lost or blurred.--Wetman (talk) 00:22, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I have it on my watchlist for the same reason that I slow down when passing a car wreck. It used to be a fairly sweet and neo-something kind of article that one might hope to plump up with some scholarship one day. It's now become a pathless wilderness (all trees, no forest). Not to mention the breathless syntax of the first paragraph. And the strange relation of spacing (or the lack thereof) to punctuation. Cynwolfe (talk) 01:14, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
Syntax man to the rescue! Well, the first paragraph is readable now. The second looks like it could use some pruning, but that's probably a question beyond my expertise. Best to all, Michael (talk) 06:39, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
OK, learning that we have a Syntax Man has begun my day with a smile. I'm picturing the cloak and mask. And thanks, more readable now. Cynwolfe (talk) 12:55, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
Nice of you all to have a conversation on my page while I was away ...
Wetman, unfortunately that would be a misplaced "trust". Paul August 20:14, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
Hey, sorry about all the empty pizza boxes around the place. And the broken lamp. You really should get a lock for that liquor cabinet. Cynwolfe (talk) 21:49, 8 March 2011 (UTC
Oh well, mei domus est tui domus. Paul August 22:44, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
While the cat's away, the mice will play. Am I to assume your tongue is planted firmly in cheek in not writing "domus mea est domus tua"? Michael (talk) 08:48, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
Paul's form is the genitive pronoun; both versions are technically correct, but your personal adjectives are less likely in a sentence with the main verb est, where I'd probably use a so-called 'dative of possession' and no verb for aphoristic effect: domus mihi, domus tibi. Cynwolfe (talk) 14:01, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
(On second thought I like pork better than squab.) I chose Latin (albeit pidgin) as a nod to Cynwolfe, perhaps I should have instead written ymay ousehay isway ouryay ousehay. Paul August 18:35, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
'Technically correct, I meant to say. Correct, they were both correct. Didn't have my contacts in this morning, geez, ended up sounding like a scold instead of playing along. Cynwolfe (talk) 19:20, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
So my Latin wasn't so squab like after all? And meanwhile poor Persephone ... and now Lamia as well ... Paul August 19:33, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
No, I'm just an eejit. Or rather, it's as if some mutant neural pathway has formed in my brain, and I'm constantly inserting negatives where they don't go. (Some might consider this righteous retribution for my overly critical nature.) This is especially embarrassing in emails to my dearest family members and friends, where I'm likely to say things like "of course I don't love you." Cynwolfe (talk) 21:33, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
;-) Paul August 22:04, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
Ah, thanks, Cynwolfe! Yes, neither Paul's version nor mine sounded especially idiomatic; thanks for giving the thing the proper swing. Alas, I never developed a sense of style, ending my studies stumbling through Gaius Julius Junior's impedimenta in Gaul. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Douglas Michael Massing (talkcontribs) 07:24, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
I pretty much ended my studies with Maria habuit parvum agnum. Paul August 13:02, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

## "The" versus "the Beatles"

There is a vote taking place in which we could use your input. — GabeMc (talk) 01:01, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

## May I pick your brain?

Hello Paul and sorry for bothering you, but would you please chip in here, if you can? It's a point of procedure regarding Implementation notes on Noleander's arbcom case. Again, sorry for the intrusion and thanks. Salvio Let's talk about it! 19:05, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

## Battle of the Hydaspes

Hi. Please see Cleanup necessary?. Regards Gun Powder Ma (talk) 21:59, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Right; I started, but had to leave before I could finish. Cool Hand Luke 09:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Fixed now I see. Paul August 10:51, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

## First choice, second choice

This whole thing always drives me insane. Could you please check my implementation notes for the AE case, especially for R1 to R3.1? Thanks, NW (Talk) 18:48, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

## Euclid

If you have the time, could you keep a watchful eye on Euclid? I just deleted renewed speculation, inserted as fact, that Euclid was of Egyptian origin. I've had very little time for Wikipedia in recent months. This is the first time I looked in on this article since December, so today's was just a lucky catch. Thank you.—Finell 23:59, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

## Bug in template

Hello.

Can you do something about the bug described at Template talk:SmithDGRA? Michael Hardy (talk) 11:34, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Hi Michael. I'll take a look when I get a chance. Paul August 18:50, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
Hi Michael, I've (finally) taken a look at the comment you left on Template talk:SmithDGRA, and replied there. Paul August 12:59, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

## Article on totally bounded spaces

Would you be able to provide a reference or proof of your claim that "a metric space is separable if and only if it is homeomorphic to a totally bounded metric space?" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.165.28.144 (talk) 15:25, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

See: Willard, Stephen (2004). General Topology. Dover Publications. ISBN 0-486-43479-6., p. 182. Paul August 16:11, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

## Hi Paul

 Hi Paul I saw that you deleted my edits to the 'derivative' page, saying that 'these edits are incorrect'. I'm confused, what parts were incorrect? Evan2718281828 (talk) 01:13, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Ah, ok, this is how to write a message.

So I made edits to the intro to the derivatives page and tried to make it much clearer for people just learning without removing any info. But you deleted the edits and said that they were incorrect, so I wanted to know why; I of course didn't see any flaws in my edits, and I certainly need to know if I have the concept of a derivative all wrong! haha — Preceding unsigned comment added by Evan2718281828 (talkcontribs) 01:22, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Hi, Evan. This is not Paul; but I was going to write you a note about your edits and I saw that you had posted here asking for clarification.
You wrote that "a derivative can be thought of as the rate of change in slope." This is not true. If you use the function to draw a graph, then the derivative is the closest thing there is to the slope of the graph at a point. The rate of change of the slope would be the second derivative. Furthermore, the interpretation as a slope is only one of many. If you interpret f as a function that takes time as an input and gives position as an output, then the derivative represents velocity (the idea of "slope of position with respect to time" doesn't make sense).
Two other things. First, we don't usually use asterisks for footnotes here on Wikipedia. The software has a built-in mechanism using <ref> tags. You can look at WP:NOTES if you're interested. Second, you referred to the increment h as a "random variable". But random variable has a jargon meaning in probability, so that's not a good word for h.
I hope you're not too disappointed about having your first edits reverted. I appreciate your eagerness to participate. It's always good to have new editors around! You might want to join the mathematics Wikiproject. We're based at Wikipedia:WikiProject Mathematics. Most project discussion and organization happens at that page's talk page, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mathematics. I hope you'll consider joining! Ozob (talk) 02:11, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
Thanks Ozob for your reply to Evan. Paul August 12:23, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
Hi Evan. I reverted your edits for all of the reasons Ozob gives above. A good idea is to discuss proposed changes first on the given article's talk page, for the Derivative article that, would be at Talk:Derivative. Best wishes, Paul August 12:23, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

## Statistics on Arbcom candidates

Hi Paul - as you may be aware, there is currently an RFC related to the next Arbitration Committee election. A suggestion has been raised with respect to statistical information about arbitrators seeking re-election here. As I know you have been quite industrious in collecting this sort of information, perhaps you could comment? Risker (talk) 15:27, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

I'll see. Paul August 01:12, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

## Otium

How do I go about getting Otium reassessed to possible B-Class and getting a higher assessment of "importance"?--Doug Coldwell talk 15:31, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Sorry Doug, but I don't participate in, or know much about article assessment, nor do I happen to know much about the article's topic either, so I'm afraid I am not going to be much help here. But goof luck and keep up the good work. Paul August 17:42, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

## Mithraic mysteries

Yes it was inadvertent. since I was manually reverting anyway I wouldn't have got a prompt.©Geni 00:03, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

## Moirai

Hi Paul, if it hasn't been done by the time you see this, could you delete Moirai so that the poorly named Moirae can be moved per the discussion at that page's Talk and at the Classics Project Talk? Thank you — — 19:11, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

I've done the move. Paul August 21:13, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
Thanks so much! — — 21:18, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

## Die and Dice

Regarding your edit to Multiverse. The template has succeeded in discouraging people from changing "die" to "dice". In the context of this article, the die is analogous to a particle in quantum mechanics, it's important that it's a singular die, not dice plural. Would you please self-revert? Thanks.—Machine Elf 1735 22:07, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi Machine Elf. Yes, of course, "it's important that it is a singular die, not dice". And of course my edit maintains that distinction, in the natural way, i.e. writing "die", rather than the very confusing "{{dice}}", when the singular is wanted. In addition using "{{dice}}" generates a link, which can result in violations of WP:overlink. A third problem I have with this template is that it will, it seems to me, encourage the very ignorance that is the root of the problem. Also what, if any, is the evidence that using this template "has succeeded"? Paul August 14:51, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Apparently, in parts of Britain, it's becoming more acceptable… I don't see how it could possibly “encourage the very ignorance that is the root of the problem”, even if ignorance were at the root. As you're concerned, anyone who's unfamiliar with the singular term would obviously benefit from the link (to which no one, in fact, objects). I suppose for those who would try to change it, any confusion upon seeing it already says "dice" on the edit page, is exactly what deters them.
In this case, I don't have a problem with exploiting an ignorance of templates. I've explained why it's being used, because in your edit summary, you said you didn't understand… I'm not going to argue pedantries with you, I find your assumptions less compelling than the hassle of regularly reverting it back to "die". Check the article history if you don't believe me—it completely stopped when I switched to the template.—Machine Elf 1735 17:17, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
We hold fast to the misusage in the US, as explained by Ambrose Bierce:
DIE, n. The singular of "dice." We seldom hear the word, because there is a prohibitory proverb, "Never say die."
Bierce goes on. I shall not. Cheers, Michael (talk) 23:27, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
Funny. Nice to have you suddenly resurface on my page. Hope all is well with you. Paul August 19:46, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
Nice of you to say so! All is, as always, a tall order; well is reasonably accurate. Engaging more in questions of substance here, as I figure out the protocol. How's by you? (Respond where you like, I'm pretty visible.) Best, Michael (talk) 03:12, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

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I've fixed this now thanks. Paul August 15:04, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

## The template "{{dice}}"

You Said ... Hi Melcombe. I see that you have reverted two of my edits, eliminating the use of the template "{{dice}}". I'd like to understand your reasoning for these reverts. I have several concerns with regard to the use of this template: It is confusing to find "{{dice}}" instead of the natural "die" when the singular is wanted, it generates a link, which can result in violations of WP:OVERLINK, it will encourage, it seems to me, the very ignorance that is the root of the problem, and finally I don't see how it, in any way, avoids the problem of editors changing "die" to "dice" inappropriately. Regards, Paul August 15:28, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Firstly, I didn't create the template ... I use it becaause it is there ... someone created it because it is/would be useful. Secondly, experience has shown that (across a number of articles in which it is used)it has reduced the number of times the grammar gets switched inappropriately, presumably because people either read the pop-up that appears on the article (which doesn't need a click-through) or else, when editing, spot the braces and realise that the spelling is intentional as it is not an ordinary wikilink. Melcombe (talk) 18:23, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Well, apparently, it's was removed from all of them nonetheless.—Machine Elf 1735 20:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

## Project Greece and Rome

I don't run that project, I just help with upkeep on things that don't seem to get taken care of. I have been doing so for several years. I never said I run it, just help run it. To keep it fresh and make sure there are new collaborations every now and then and check on other housekeeping things. But I have no problem with working with people that WANT to work together, but Cynwolfe has never shown that they can really do that to me. That is my opinion based on every encounter with the member starting with this[1] and then continuing on the Greek Love article where policy and guidelines have just been thrown out the door as well as several of us that are major contributors. Cynwolfe is not innocent in all this. They have ownership issues on both the Greek love article and The Project Greece and Rome talk page. Talking down and name calling are not just aimed at me. The member looking to find a way to raise Otium to a B rating got slammed and then when I came to the page to discuss it, it became an intellectual contest of text with one person claiming that the article could never be raised to a higher rating until experts on that subject contributed and then some even attacked that member's intelligence. And this all starts with Cynwolfe in my opinion. The Project talk page has always had a lot of people of varying knowledge but this person creates an uncomfortable atmosphere.

Do I owe them an apology? Quite possibly, but I didn't say anything to Cynwolfe that they didn't already say to me. Do I deserve an apology? Calling someone a bully is so easy, but their actions show that more than mine, especially over the course of months where they have created an atmosphere where some don't want to post on the pages they are on out of sheer aggravation.

You have kept your participation in this very simple. That has far more weight to me than those that ramble on about how great Cynwolfe is. But if anyone does something Cynwolfe doesn't like they become horrible and the latest discussion is just one example. So I'll say this, if what Cynwolfe said to me was fine and does not deserve an apology to me or the outrageous attack I took when I was notifying them of changes to an article and then continued to push me off that page....do you think my saying I am sorry is going to change much? I have no problem doing it. Apologies are important....I just wonder who really deserves one here. I need to mean it when I say it and getting some small amount from that member first would go a long way towards my meaning it.--Amadscientist (talk) 20:40, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

You write that "quite possibly" you owe Cynwolfe an apology, that you "didn't say anything to Cynwolfe that they didn't already say to [you]", that in regards to being a bully that "their actions show that more than [yours]", all of which indicate to me that you are not proud of your behavor here. Regardless of how you think Cynwolfe has behaved, if you feel that you have behaved badly, an apology is called for. Paul August 22:42, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
"Called for?" No. Appropriate, yes. Apologies are never called for or required, but in a civil world, regardless of the wrongs we feel we are subjected to....if one feels less than proud of behavior it is the usual step...one I do feel strongly about. It would be nice to see Cynwolfe take a different tact, but alas there is nothing to show that will be the outcome here. I will think about how to approach this further. I don't see pressure to make me apologize coming from you. What I see is your pointing out exactly why an apology would be something I would want to do. Having said that, it is more than likely I will extend it.--Amadscientist (talk) 23:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

## MSU Interview

Dear Paul August,

My name is Jonathan Obar user:Jaobar, I'm a professor in the College of Communication Arts and Sciences at Michigan State University and a Teaching Fellow with the Wikimedia Foundation's Education Program. This semester I've been running a little experiment at MSU, a class where we teach students about becoming Wikipedia administrators. Not a lot is known about your community, and our students (who are fascinated by wiki-culture by the way!) want to learn how you do what you do, and why you do it. A while back I proposed this idea (the class) to the community HERE, where it was met mainly with positive feedback. Anyhow, I'd like my students to speak with a few administrators to get a sense of admin experiences, training, motivations, likes, dislikes, etc. We were wondering if you'd be interested in speaking with one of our students.

So a few things about the interviews:

• Interviews will last between 15 and 30 minutes.
• Interviews can be conducted over skype (preferred), IRC or email. (You choose the form of communication based upon your comfort level, time, etc.)
• All interviews will be completely anonymous, meaning that you (real name and/or pseudonym) will never be identified in any of our materials, unless you give the interviewer permission to do so.
• All interviews will be completely voluntary. You are under no obligation to say yes to an interview, and can say no and stop or leave the interview at any time.
• The entire interview process is being overseen by MSU's institutional review board (ethics review). This means that all questions have been approved by the university and all students have been trained how to conduct interviews ethically and properly.

Bottom line is that we really need your help, and would really appreciate the opportunity to speak with you. If interested, please send me an email at obar@msu.edu (to maintain anonymity) and I will add your name to my offline contact list. If you feel comfortable doing so, you can post your name HERE instead.

If you have questions or concerns at any time, feel free to email me at obar@msu.edu. I will be more than happy to speak with you.

Thanks in advance for your help. We have a lot to learn from you.

Sincerely,

Jonathan Obar --Jaobar (talk) 07:26, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Young June Sah --Yjune.sah (talk) 02:56, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

## Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Statistics 2012

Hi Paul. I wonder if you are still maintaining the statistics of arbitration proceedings, or if the data for 2012 is simply forthcoming. If you are still maintaining the page, then thank you for your hard work, and please don't consider this an impatient demand for new data. Regards, AGK [•] 22:10, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Other activities have kept me from this task lately. The 2011 data is not quite complete, and though I still would like to finish that, I suspect I will not be maintaining any of this going forward. Others of course are welcome to continue to collect this data, but I detect little interest in this. Regards, Paul August 12:07, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

## Apollodorus

Hi Paul, I just finished cleaning up all the 500+ mythology articles that linked to Apollodorus of Athens (who was simply Apollodorus) instead of Bibliotheca (Pseudo-Apollodorus). I've moved the Athenian to Apollodorus of Athens and I'm pretty sure that Apollodorus should just be the dab. When you get a chance, could you clear out Apollodorus and move Apollodorus (disambiguation) there? I think this is uncontroversial and fits the dab page policy, but could be wrong. Thanks a bunch, — cardiff | chestnut — 17:15, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Good of you to fix all these incorrect links. But don't understand why you changed "Apollodorus" to be a redirect to "Apollodorus (disambiguation)" (from being a redirect to "Apollodorus of Athens" here. Presumably those articles are still looking for the Athenian, e.g. Anaximander, Epicurus, Hecate etc? Paul August 19:31, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
A bunch of them definitely are, but an equal number are looking to other Apollodoruses on the dab page or to more minor figures not listed there. Some I couldn't even figure out, hence the redirect to the dab. I should have when I realized what the situation was also gone through and direct linked the certainly intended Apollodoruses of Athenses to his article; I'll do this presently. My main rationale for sending Apollodorus to Apollodorus (disambiguation) was to prevent further introductions of refs like Apollodorus 3.18.2, which is how the Bibliotheca is cited in many sources. Judging from the number of links that are certainly meant to go to Apollodorus of Athens vs. the total number of links that could go to any Apollodorus (incl. Ps.-Apld.), it seems that the 2nd c. Athenian isn't where the simple headword belongs. Let me know what you think. — cardiff | chestnut — 19:44, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
I agree that ultimately "Apollodorus" ought to be the name of the dab page. Once we eliminate all the links to "Apollodorus", I can do the move. Paul August 20:17, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
Sounds good. Do you mean all the links to "Apollodorus" the 2nd c. Athenian, or all the links to random Apollodoroi who are currently simply linked "Apollodorus"? I don't know that I'll be able to dab all of these. One more question: do links in Talk and User spaces need to be changed? Thanks — cardiff | chestnut — 20:27, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
I moved "Apollodorus (disambiguation))" to "Apollodorus". I saw that you disambiguated several of the links to "Apollodorus", and I've now fixed (I hope) several myself. I need now (I see) look at links to Apollodorus (disambiguation). Paul August 15:04, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
Well all the links now look more or less ok to me. Paul August 15:13, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for taking care of that. The Unknown God one and the Leleges–Carians Apld.'s have stymied me. There's a chance that the Unknown God ref might belong to Apld. of Athens' Περὶ θεῶν, but this might be through Philodemus, and I don't have Obbink's editon of On Piety and my TLG disk doesn't either. Good catch on Acestorides: I should have realized from the order of the list (Conon, Apollodorus ...) that it had to be the Bibliotheca. I've cleared out the rest of the links to "Apollodorus (disambiguation)", a few of which I actually introduced. Thanks again for talking care of this. As I was going through the erroneous Bibliotheca > Apld. of Athens links I noticed how often WP had made the Bibliotheca a work of the 2nd c. BC, with some even calling it the Chronicle, so the move was really needed just to slow down WP's returning public knowledge of the Bibl.'s authorship to the state it was in during the the Byzantine period. — cardiff | chestnut — 15:17, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

You're welcome. I spent a bit of time looking at the "Unknown God" mention to no avail. I also spent some time at "Leleges" as you may have noticed. I was able to add some linked cites for the bit about the Lelex connection, but I could find no mention in the Library for the supposed "Cretan legend". Anyway, the situation as you found it was an obvious mess, very much needing cleanup — all your hard work is very much appreciated. By the way, this ancient confusion can still be found I think in modern works. For example the Britannica article on "Apollodorus of Athens" which even though it says the Bibliotheca is not by him, still has him writing on "philology, geography, and mythology"). Paul August 15:59, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, I think both Apollodorus of Athens and the Bibliotheca need a good bulking up with recent scholarship to help make plain just what the situation is in the generally fuzzy topics of Hellenistic scholarship and Greek Mythography. Maybe someday ... — cardiff | chestnut — 16:08, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
Indeed ... someday. Paul August 16:13, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
One more part of the mess: if you have an opinion on the matter, you might want to chime in at User Talk:Phlyaristis#Apld. and, where the discussion should probably take place, Talk:Bibliotheca (Pseudo-Apollodorus)#Citing (and linking) the Bibliotheca: my cleaning up of the mess created a little spill of its own. — cardiff | chestnut — 16:15, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
I've replied there. Paul August 16:50, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

## Absolute Value

Your recent edits of the primary definition[s] of the absolute value function are problematic for three reasons. The first of which is that you are replacing a well source definition with one that does not have a source, the second is your failure to compromise by including the both definitions as they are equally signficant, and the third is that you seem to expect others to make discuss changes to the real argument definitions before they are changed, when you are not doing so yourself. I am going to revert your good faith edits for now, on the assumption that you will either provide a source for your definition, or start a talk page on the subject. Regards. KlappCK (talk) 19:59, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Hi KlappCK. Ok, I've restored the original definition with a source. I'd be happy discuss other changes you think need making. Paul August 20:24, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
Let me put it this way: as the | two most prolific editors of this page, I believe it is against the spirit of Wikipedia for either of us take ownership of the page. The absolute value function's relationship to the sign function is significant and is not expressley stated elsewhere on the page. As both definitions have reputable sources, it is my belief as an inclusionist that we include both definitions. I am putting the $\left|x\right| = x \sgn(x)$ definition back in again, as both definitions have there merits (the former for its simplicity and the latter for its ability to readily demonstrate that $\tfrac{\text{d} \left|x\right|}{\text{d} x} = \sgn(x)$. This is the most pragmatic solution that I can percieve to be a compromise. If you are still flustered by the inclusion of this definition as one of two equally relavent real domain representations, then I believe your are right that we need to start a discussion on the talk page.KlappCK (talk) 15:09, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
As an aside here, I should clarify that $\tfrac{\text{d} \left|x\right|}{\text{d} x} = \sgn(x) \text{ for } x \ne 0$. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KlappCK (talkcontribs) 15:22, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
I'm fine with having the equation
$|a| = a \sgn(a).$
in the article somewhere (the proper place would be in the section "Relationship to other functions" ) but I don't think it should be given as a definition. As I asked earlier can you point to any reliable source which uses this as the definition? Weisstein doesn't really count here as he is self published and idiosyncratic. Paul August 18:44, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
I suppose you can also find a nearly equivalent form (and several others) at Wolfram Alpha (as good a source as any, if you ask me). I wish there were a section of the absolute value in the handbook.KlappCK (talk) 14:38, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
None of the equations there are ever used as definitions. So I'm going to move that equation as I indicated above. Paul August 20:12, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

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Fixed. Paul August 12:23, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

## You're invited! New England Wikimedia General Meeting

 New England Wikimedia General Meeting The New England Wikimedia General Meeting will be a large-scale meetup of all Wikimedians (and friends) from the New England area in order to discuss regional coordination and possible formalization of our community (i.e., a chapter). Come hang out with other Wikimedians, learn more about ongoing activities, and help plan for the future! Potential topics: What is a Wikimedia chapter and should we work towards one? Planning of regular Boston meetups (any other New England cities?) Planning for upcoming coordinated events (Wikipedia Love Libraries, Wiki Loves Monuments, Wiknic, etc.) Outreach to universities (WikiProject Academical Village) and cultural institutions (GLAM) Wikimania DC is this summer. Your ideas! Sunday, April 22 1:30 PM – 4:30 PM Conference Room C06, Johnson Building, Boston Public Library—Central Library 700 Boylston St., Boston MA 02116 Please sign up here: Wikipedia:Meetup/New England!

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## Why the revert?

You reverted my request in Administrator's Noticeboard. Care to explain why you did so, and furthermore failed to notify me that you had done so? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 16:33, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

That was unintentional. Don't know how that happened. I suppose it must have been an inadvertant "click" somehow. Paul August 17:03, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
I thought that might have been the case, esp. since you didn't notify me or edit summarize your reasoning for doing so. No worries. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 17:30, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

## Life's a bowl of …

Pomegranates for Paulus Augustus

A bowl of very ancient pomegranates for you, for cracking down over at Persephone. That article makes me throw my hands in the air. Or wash them.

Anyhoo, welcome back! Cynwolfe (talk) 21:58, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

;-) Paul August 23:19, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

## GA collaboration

I proposed this over at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject Mathematics, but there doesn't seem to be much of a response, so, as I noticed that as you and I are the top 2 contributors to the article Area, would you like to collaborate with myself (and possibly others) in getting this vital article up to GA at least? Thank you for your time.-- 14:03, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi Gilderien. Thanks for asking me to collaborate. I may look at the article now and again, but I'm afraid I don't have much time at the moment to devote to Wikipedia. And if you check, you'll notice that my contributions to Area have been inconsequential. All the best, Paul August 17:41, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
That's fine, real life should always come first :) I will carry on working on it, and if you ever change your mind, just give me a shout.-- 09:52, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

## Sgt. Pepper Straw Poll

There is currently a Straw poll taking place here. Your input would be appreciated. ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:48, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

## Random bits

I didn't know you're a mathematician... o.o - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 11:42, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

What gave me away? Paul August 11:54, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
Erdos number. Randomly wandered over there. - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 18:40, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

## Hesperides

Just to let you know, I deleted the section that an IP had deleted, a deletion which you reverted. I was going to make a dummy edit when I first saw the IP's edit noting that it was right, but was too lazy, so you were right to revert it since there was no edit summary. Other than the gods in that section, the names aren't Greek, just some fantasy fiction approximation of what Greek names would sound like. If the story has some basis in one of the lesser mythographers, I'll add an appropriate summary, but given the nature of the text as it stood I think it's best not to let it stand, since if it's some post-Jacobian Western European fantasy, which it kinduv smelled like, that much coverage would be undue anyway. 01:00, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

## Beatles RfC

Hello this message is to inform you that there is currently a public poll to determine whether to capitalize the definite article ("the") when mentioning the band "THE BEATLES" mid-sentence. As you've previously participated either here, here, or here, your input would be appreciated. Thank you for your time. For the mediators. ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:05, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Ping. ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 03:07, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

## You're invited: Ada Lovelace, STEM women edit-a-thon at Harvard

U.S. Ada Lovelace Day 2012 edit-a-thon, Harvard University - You are invited!
Now in its fourth year, Ada Lovelace Day is an international celebration of women in science, technology, engineering, mathematics (STEM), and related fields. Participants from around New England are invited to gather together at Harvard Law School to edit and create Wikipedia entries on women who have made significant contributions to the STEM fields.
00:37, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

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## Arbcom

Hi. Any chance you might be considering it again? : ) - jc37 17:43, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

No. Paul August 20:19, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
Fair enough. Happy editing : ) - jc37 20:42, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

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Fixed now. Paul August 18:38, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

## Ajax

Hi, just so you know for the future, it is a standard on Wikipedia that headings are written in sentence case, not title case, except where they reference a work, institution, etc. whose name would be written in title case. See WP:MSH. — Smjg (talk) 21:55, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes I'm aware of that. Don't know what happened at Ajax. I could have sworn that my edit there was to undo an IP who changed "fiction" to "Fiction". But that's not what the history shows, so this must be an early sign of dementia. Paul August 22:09, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

## I fixed the problem

On the Cyclopes page it was said that Euripides. Said nothing about Asclepius and the Cyclopes being brought back. Well I explained that it is not in the play. It comes from other writers. So I stated that. The information I put in is fact. So dont delete it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DarkSleach (talkcontribs) 17:26, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Hi Dark Search, thanks for discussing your edit. And yes now your edit makes more sense. Unfortunately I think there are still some problems that I would like to discuss with you. I'd especially like to know the source for what you wrote. Paul August 17:56, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

## My other edit

My edit on Hesiod about Zeus defeating the Titans. With Poseidon and Hades. Is fact and I have to make it all about the Cyclopes. You dont own Wikipedia. Dont act like you own all the pages. I put nothing false in. reason was not good enough. I will take this up with Wikipedia. If you keep deleting my edits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DarkSleach (talkcontribs) 17:42, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Hi again ;-) Sorry you are upset. You are correct that Poseidon and Hades fought in the war with the Titans, but so did all the Olympian gods. I don't see why we need to mention Poseidon and Hades? Paul August 20:31, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

## Ok here is my sources.

Orphic Hymn 18 to Pluton (trans. Taylor) (Greek hymns C3rd B.C. to 2nd A.D.) : "To Plouton [Haides]. Plouton, magnanimous, whose realms profound are fixed beneath the firm and solid ground, in the Tartarean plains remote from sight, and wrapt for ever in the depths of night. Zeus Khthonios (of the Underworld), thy sacred ear incline, and pleased accept these sacred rites divine. Earth’s keys to thee, illustrious king, belong, its secret gates unlocking, deep and strong. ‘Tis thine abundant annual fruits to bear, for needy mortals are thy constant care. To thee, great king, all sovereign earth assigned, the seat of gods and basis of mankind. Thy throne is fixed in Haides’ dismal plains, distant, unknown to the rest, where darkness reigns; where, destitute of breath, pale spectres dwell, in endless, dire, inexorable hell; and in dread Akheron, whose depths obscure, earth’s stable roots eternally secure. O mighty Daimon, whose decision dread, the future fate determines of the dead, with Demeter’s girl [Persephone] captive, through grassy plains, drawn in a four-yoked car with loosened reins, rapt over the deep, impelled by love, you flew till Eleusinia’s city rose to view: there, in a wondrous cave obscure and deep, the sacred maid secure from search you keep, the cave of Atthis, whose wide gates display an entrance to the kingdoms void of day. Of works unseen and seen thy power alone to be the great dispending source is known. All-ruling, holy God, with glory bright, thee sacred poets and their hymns delight, propitious to thy mystics’ works incline, rejoicing come, for holy rites are thine."

KEYS OF HAIDES "Aiakos, even after death, is honoured in the company of Plouton [Haides], and has charge of the keys of Hades’ realm." - Apollodorus, The Library 3.159 "[Depicted on table made by Kolotes at Olympia] On the other are Plouton [Hades], Dionysos, Persephone and Nymphai ... As to the key (Plouton holds a key) they say that what is called Haides has been locked up by Plouton, and that nobody will return back again there from." - Pausanias, Guide to Greece 5.20.2-3 "Earth’s keys to thee, illustrious king [Haides], belong, its secret gates unlocking, deep and strong." - Orphic Hymn 18 to Pluton

HAIDES ATTENDANTS: ROYAL COURT Haides was enthroned in Erebos surrounded by a court consisting of the three Judges of the Dead, the Erinyes (Chthonian Vengeance Demons), the Moirai (Fates), the Keres (Death-Demons) and Thanatos (Death), as well as the personified underworld Rivers. "The lord of Erebus [Haides], enthroned in the midst of the fortress of his dolorous realm, was demanding of his subjects the misdoings of their lives, pitying nought human but wroth against all the Manes (Shades). Around him stand the Furiae [Erinyes] and various Mortes (Deaths) [Thanatoi or Keres] in order due, and savage Poena (Vengeance) thrusts forth her coils of jangling chains; the Fatae (Fates) [Moirai] bring the Animas (Souls) and with one gesture [literally “thumb” as in the amphitheatre] damn them; too heavy grows the work. Hard by, Minos with his dread brother [Rhadamanthys] in kindly mood counsels a milder justice, and restrains the bloodthirsty king; Cocytus and Phelgethon, swollen with tears and fire, aid in the judgement, and Styx accuses the gods of perjury." - Statius, Thebaid 8.21 "Himself [lord Haides] I behold, all pale upon the throne, with Stygian Eumenides [Erinyes] ministering to his fell deeds about him, and the remorseless chambers and gloomy couch of Stygian Juno [Persephone]. Black Mors [Thanatos god of death] sits upon an eminence, and numbers the silent peoples for their lord; yet the greater part of the troop remains. The Gortynian judge [Minos] shakes them [the ghosts of the dead] in his inexorable urn, demanding the truth with threats, and constrains them to speak out their whole lives’ story and at last confess their extorted gains." - Statius, Thebaid 4.520

HADES & THE HERO ORPHEUS When Orpheus came to the underworld seeking the return of his dead love Eurydike, Haides and Persephone were moved by his pleas and agreed to let her return. Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 1. 14 (trans. Aldrich) (Greek mythographer C2nd A.D.) : "When his [Orpheus'] wife Eurydike died from a snake-bite, Orpheus descended into Haides’ realm with the desire to bring her back up to earth, and persuade Plouton [Hades] to release her. Plouton promised to do this if on the return trip Orpheus would not turn round before reaching his own home. But he disobeyed, and turned to look at his wife, who thereupon went back down again." Pseudo-Hyginus, Astronomica 2. 7 (trans. Grant) (Roman mythographer C2nd A.D.) : "Orpheus . . . was passionately devoted to music. It is thought that by his skill he could charm even wild beasts to listen. When, grieving for his wife Eurydice, he descended to the Lower World, he praised the children of the gods in his song." Ovid, Metamorphoses 10. 8 ff (trans. Melville) (Roman epic C1st B.C. to C1st A.D.) : "The new-wed bride [Eurydike, wife of Orpheus] . . . fell dying when a serpent struck her heel. And when at last the bard Rhodopeius [Orpheus] had mourned his fill in the wide world above, he dared descend through Taenaria’s dark gate to Styx to make trial of the Umbrae (Shades); and through the thronging wraiths and grave-spent ghosts he came to pale Persephone and him, Dominus Umbrarum (Lord of the Shades) [Haides], who rules the unlovely realm, and as he struck his lyre’s sad chords he said : Ye deities who rule the world below, whither we mortal creatures all return, if simple truth, direct and genuine, may by your leave be told, I have come down not with intent to see the glooms of Tartara, nor to enchain the triple-snaked necks of Medusaeum [Kerberos], but for my dear wife’s sake, in whom a trodden viper poured his venom and stole her budding years. My heart has sought strength to endure; the attempt I’ll not deny; but love has won, a god whose fame is fair in the world above; but here I doubt, though here too, I surmise; and if that ancient tale of ravishment is true, you too were joined in love. Now by these regions filled with fear, by this huge Chaos, these vast silent realms, reweave, I implore, the fate unwound too fast of my Eurydice. To you are owed ourselves and all creation; a brief while we linger; then we hasten, late or soon to one abode; here on road leads us all; here in the end is home; over humankind your kingdom keeps the longest sovereignty. She too, when ripening years reach their due term, shall own your rule. The favour that I ask is but to enjoy her love; and, if fate will not reprieve her, my resolve is clear not to return: may two deaths give you cheer.’ So to the music of his strings he [Orpheus] sang, and all the bloodless spirits wept to hear; and Tantalus forgot the fleeing water, Ixion’s wheel was tranced; the Belides [Danaides] laid down their urns; the vultures left their feast, and Sisyphus sat rapt upon his stone. Then first by that sad ringing overwhelmed, the Eumenides’ [Erinyes’] cheeks, it’s said, were wet with tears; and the queen [Persephone] and he whose sceptre rules the underworld could not deny the prayer, and called Eurydice. She was among the recent ghosts and, limping from her wound, came slowly forth; and Rhodopeius [Orpheus] took his bride and with her this compact that, till he reach the world above and leave Valles Avernae [Valleys of Hell], he look not back or else the gift would fail. The track climbed upwards, steep and indistinct, through the hushed silence and the murky gloom; and now they neared the edge of the bright world, and, fearing lest she faint, longing to look, he turned his eyes--and straight she slipped away. He stretched his arms to hold her--to be held--and clasped, poor soul, naught but the yielding air. And she, dying again, made no complaint (for what complaint had she save she was loved?) and breathed a faint farewell, and turned again back to the land of spirits whence she came. The double death of his Eurydice stole Orpheus‘ wits away . . . He longed, he begged, in vain to be allowed to cross the stream of Styx a second time. The ferryman [Kharon] repulsed him. Even so for seven days he sat upon the bank, unkempt and fasting, anguish, grief and tears his nourishment, and cursed Erebus’ cruelty." Seneca, Hercules Furens 569 ff (trans. Miller) (Roman tragedy C1st A.D.) : "Orpheus had power to bend the ruthless lords of the shades [Haides and Persephone] by song and suppliant prayer, when he sought back his Eurydice. The art which had drawn the trees and birds and rocks, which had stayed the course of rivers, at whose sound the beasts had stopped to listen, soothes the underworld with unaccustomed strains, and rings out clearer in those unhearing realms. Eurydice the Thracian brides bewail; even the gods, whom no tears can move, bewail her; and they [the Erinyes] who with awful brows investigate men’s crimes and sift out ancient wrongs, as they sit in judgment bewail Eurydice. At length death’s lord [Haides] exclaims : We own defeat; go forth to the upper world, yet by this appointed doom--fare thou as comrade behind thy husband, and thou, look not back upon thy wife until bright day shall have revealed the gods of heaven, and the opening of Spartan Taenarus shall be at hand.' True love hates delay and brooks it not; while he hastes to look upon his prize, ‘tis lost. The realm which could be overcome by song, that realm shall strength have power to overcome." Statius, Thebaid 8. 21 ff (trans. Mozley) (Roman epic C1st A.D.) : "Must I [Haides] so oft endure the profanation of Chaos by living strangers? . . . It shames me too, alas! how Tartarus opened a way to the Odyrsian plaint [Orpheus]; with my own eyes I saw the Eumenides [Erinyes] shed base tears at those persuasive strains, and the Sisters [the Moirai or Fates] repeat their allotted task; me too--, but the violence of my cruel law was stronger."

II) HERAKLES & ALKESTIS Herakles was sometimes described as battling Haides for the life of Queen Alkestis, who had agreed to die in place of her husband Admetos. Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 1. 106 (trans. Aldrich) (Greek mythographer C2nd A.D.) : "[Apollon] obtained from the Moirai (Fates) a privilege for [King] Admetos, whereby, when it was time for him to die, he would be released from death if someone should volunteer to die in his place. When his day to die came . . . [his wife] Alkestis died for him. Kore [Persephone], however sent her back, or, according to some, Herakles battled Haides and brought her back up to Admetos."

HADES WRATH : PIRITHOUS & THESEUS The hero Peirithoos sought to abduct Persephone, the bride of Haides. As punishment the god trapped him on a stone chair and eternal torment. Theseus, who accompanied him on the expedition, was freed at the request of Herakles. Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca E1. 23 - 24 (trans. Aldrich) (Greek mythographer C2nd A.D.) : "Theseus and Peirithoos agreed with each other to marry daughters of Zeus, so Theseus with the other’s help kidnapped twelve-year-old Helene from Sparta, and went down to Haides’ realm to court Persephone for Peirithoos . . . Theseus, arriving in Haides’ realm with Peirithoos, was thoroughly deceived, for Haides on the pretense of hospitality had them sit first upon the throne of Lethe (Forgetfulness). Their bodies grew onto it, and were held down by the serpent’s coils. Now Peirithous remained fast there for all time, but Herakles led Theseus back up." Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 2. 124 (trans. Aldrich) (Greek mythographer C2nd A.D.) : "As he [Herakles] approached the gates of Haides’ realm [in his quest to fetch Kerberos], he came across Theseus along with Peirithoos, who had courted Persephone with matrimonial intentions and for this reason was held fast as was Theseus. When they saw Herakles they stretched forth their hands as if to rise up with the help of his strength. He did in fact pull Theseus up by the hand, but when he wanted to raise Peirithoos, the earth shook and he let go." Diodorus Siculus, Library of History 4. 63. 4 (trans. Oldfather) (Greek historian C1st B.C.) : "Peirithoos [after helping Theseus abduct Helene] now decided to seek the hand of Persephone in marriage, and when he asked Theseus to make the journey with him Theseus at first endeavoured to dissuade him and to turn him away from such a deed as being impious; but since Peirithoos firmly insisted upon it Theseus was bound by the oaths to join with him in the deed. And when they had at last made their way below to the regions of Haides, it came to pass that because of the impiety of their act they were both put in chains, and although Theseus was later let go by reason of the favour with which Herakles regarded him, Peirithoos because of the impiety remained in Haides, enduring everlasting punishment; but some writers of myths say that both of them never returned." Diodorus Siculus, Library of History 4. 26. 1 : "Herakles then, according to the myths which have come down to us, descended into the realm of Haides, and being welcomed like a brother by Persephone brought Theseus and Peirithoos back to the upper world after freeing them from their bonds. This he accomplished by the favour of Persephone, and receiving the dog Kerberos in chains he carried him away to the amazement of all and exhibited him to men." Plutarch, Life of Theseus 31.2 & 35. 1 (trans. Perrin) (Greek historian C1st to C2nd A.D.) : "[Theseus] to return the service of Peirithoos, [who helped him abduct Helene] journeyed with him to Epiros, in quest of the daughter of Aidoneus the king of the Molossians. This man called his wife Phersephone, his daughter Kora, and his dog Kerberos, with which beast he ordered that all suitors of his daughter should fight, promising her to him that should overcome it. However, when he learned that Peirithoos and his friend were come not to woo, but to steal away his daughter, he seized them both. Peirithoos he put out of the way at once by means of the dog, but Theseus he kept in close confinement . . . Now while Herakles was the guest of Aidoneus the Molossian, the king incidentally spoke of the adventure of Theseus and Peirithoos, telling what they had come there to do, and what they had suffered when they were found out. Herakles was greatly distressed by the inglorious death of the one, and by the impending death of the other. As for Peirithoos, he thought it useless to complain, but he begged for the release of Theseus, and demanded that this favour be granted him. Aidoneus yielded to his prayers, Theseus was set free, and returned to Athens, where his friends were not yet altogether overwhelmed." Aelian, Historical Miscellany 4. 5 (trans. Wilson) (Greek rhetorician C2nd to 3rd A.D.) : "Benefits were remembered, and thanks for them given, by Theseus to Herakles. Aïdoneus king of the Molossians put Theseus in chains when he came with Pirithous to kidnap the king’s wife [i.e. Persephone]. Theseus did not want to marry the woman himself but did this as a favour to Pirithous. Herakles came to the country of the Molossians and rescued Theseus, in return for which the latter set up an altar to him." Pseudo-Hyginus, Fabulae 79 (trans. Grant) (Roman mythographer C2nd A.D.) : "When Jove [Zeus] saw that they [Theseus & Peirithous] had such audacity [kidnapping Helene] as to expose themselves to danger, he bade them in a dream both go and ask Pluto on Pirithous’ part for Proserpina [Persephone] in marriage. When they had descended to the Land of the Dead through the peninsula Taenarus, and had informed Pluto [Haides] why they had come, they were stretched out and tortured for a long time by the Furies. When Hercules came to lead out the three-headed dog, they begged his promise of protection. He obtained the favor from Pluto, and brought them out unharmed." Ovid, Heroides 2. 67 ff (trans. Showerman) (Roman poetry C1st B.C. to C1st A.D.) : "With record of his [Theseus'] deeds. When men shall have read of . . . the knocking at the gloomy palace of the darksome god." Seneca, Phaedra 93 ff (trans. Miller) (Roman tragedy C1st A.D.) : "Through the deep shades of the pool which none recrosses is he [Theseus] faring, this brave recruit of a madcap suitor [Peirithoos], that from the very throne of the infernal king [Haides] he may rob and bear away his wife [Persephone]. He hurries on, a partner in mad folly; him nor fear nor shame held back. And there in the depths of Acherontis [i.e. the underworld] he seeks adultery and an unlawful bed." Seneca, Phaedra 147 ff : "Suppose that Theseus is indeed held fast [in the underworld], hidden away in Lethean depths, and must suffer Stygia [i.e. the underworld] eternally." Seneca, Phaedra 222 ff : "Trust not in Dis [Haides]. Though he bar his realm, and though the Stygian dog [Kerberos] keep guard o’er the grim doors, Theseus alone finds out forbidden ways." Seneca, Phaedra 625 ff : "The overlord of the fast-holding realm and of the silent Styx has made no way to the upper world once quitted; and will he let the robber [Theseus] of his couch go back? Unless, perchance, even Pluton sits smiling upon love!" Seneca, Phaedra 951 : "[Theseus was] in depths of Tartarus, in presence of dread Dis [Haides], and imminent menace of hell’s lord." Seneca, Phaedra 1149 ff : "Theseus looks on sky and upper world and has escaped from the pools of Stygia, chaste one, thou owest naught to thine uncle, the all-devouring; unchanged the tale remains for the infernal king [i.e. he keeps his bride]." Seneca, Phaedra 1217 ff : "[Theseus returned from the underworld laments his unhappy lot :] Alcides, give back his boon to Dis [Haides]; give me up again to the ghosts whom I escaped. Impiously, I make vain prayers for the death I left behind.; " Statius, Thebaid 8. 21 (trans. Mozley) (Roman epic C1st A.D.) : "Must I [Haides] so oft endure the profanation of Chaos by living strangers? The rash ardour of Pirithous provoked me, and Theseus, sworn comrade of his daring friend [when the pair attempted to abduct Persephone]."

HADES WRATH : ASCLEPIUS Diodorus Siculus, Library of History 4. 71. 3 (trans. Oldfather) (Greek historian C1st B.C.) : "It was believed that he [Asklepios] had brought back to life many who had died. Consequently, the myth goes on to say, Haides brought accusation against Asklepios, charging him before Zeus of acting to the detriment of his own province, for, he said, the number of the dead was steadily diminishing, now that men were being healed by Asklepios. So Zeus, in indignation, slew Asklepios with his thunderbolt." Aesop, Fables 133 (from Chambry & Babrius, Fabulae Aesopeae 75) (trans. Gibbs) (Greek fable C6th B.C.) : "[This fable by Aesop contains an allusion to the story of Asklepios :] There was once a doctor who knew nothing about medicine. One of his patients was feeling quite weak, but everyone insisted, 'Don't give up, you will get well; your illness is the sort that lasts for a while, but then you will feel better.' The doctor, however, marched in and declared : I'm not going to play games with you or tell you lies: you need to take care of all your affairs, because you are going to die; you are not going to last more than another day.' Having said this, the doctor did not even bother to come back again. After a while the patient recovered from his illness and was venturing out of doors, although he was not yet fully steady on his feet. When the doctor ran into the patient, he greeted him, and asked how all the people down in Haides were doing. The patient said, They are taking it easy, drinking the water of Lethe. But Persephone and the mighty god Plouton [Haides] were just now threatening terrible things against all the doctors, since they keep the sick people from dying. Every single doctor was denounced, and they were ready to put you at the top of the list. This scared me, so I immediately stepped forward and grasped their royal sceptres as I solemnly swore that this was simply a ridiculous accusation, since you are not really a doctor at all."

Ovid, Metamorphoses 2. 260 ff (trans. Melville) (Roman epic C1st B.C. to C1st A.D.) : "Earth everywhere splits deep [when Phaethon scorches the earth] and light strikes down into Tartara (the Underworld) and fills with fear Rex Infernus (Hell’s monarch) [Haides] and his consort [Persephone]." Ovid, Metamorphoses 5. 354 ff : "The land [of Sicily] quakes [as Typhoeus the Giant buried beneath it tries to escape] and even the king who rules the land of silence (Rex Silentum) [Haides] shudders lest the ground in gaping seams should open and the day stream down and terrify the trembling Umpire (Shades). The tyrant (Tyrannus) had left his dark domains to and fro, drawn in his chariot and sable steeds, inspected the foundations of the isle." Seneca, Hercules Furens 603 ff (trans. Miller) (Roman tragedy C1st A.D.) : "I [Herakles] have seen places unapproached by any . . . those gloomy spaces which the baser pole hath yielded to infernal Jove [Haides]; and if the regions of the third estate pleased me, I might have reigned." Seneca, Hercules Furens 658 ff : "All the world’s holy powers, and thou [Haides] who rulest the all-holding realm, and thou [Persephone] whom, stolen from Enna, thy mother [Demeter] sought in vain, may it be right, I pray, boldly to speak of powers hidden away and buried beneath the earth." Seneca, Hercules Furens 707 ff : "What of him who holds sway over the dark realm? Where sits he, governing his flitting tribes? . . . A plain lies round about this where sits the god [Haides], where with haughty mien his awful majesty assorts the new-arriving souls. Lowering is his brow, yet such as wears the aspect of his brothers and his high race; his countenance is that of Jove, but Jove the thunderer; chief part of that realm’s grimness is its own lord, whose aspect whate’er is dreaded dreads." Seneca, Phaedra 625 ff : "The overlord [Haides] of the fast-holding realm and of the silent Styx has made no way to the upper world once quitted." Seneca, Troades 402 ff : "Taenarus and the cruel tyrant’s [Haides] kingdom and Cerberus, guarding the portal of no easy passage." Statius, Thebaid 4. 520 ff (trans. Mozley) (Roman epic C1st A.D.) : "Himself [lord Haides] I behold, all pale upon the throne, with Stygian Eumenides [Erinyes] ministering to his fell deeds about him, and the remorseless chambers and gloomy couch of Stygian Juno [Persephone]. Black Mors [Thanatos, death] sits upon an eminence, and numbers the silent peoples for their lord; yet the greater part of the troop remains. The Gortynian judge [Minos] shakes them [the ghosts of the dead] in his inexorable urn, demanding the truth with threats, and constrains them to speak out their whole lives’ story and at last confess their extorted gains." Statius, Thebaid 8. 21 ff (trans. Mozley) (Roman epic C1st A.D.) : "The lord of Erebus [Haides], enthroned in the midst of the fortress of his dolorous realm, was demanding of his subjects the misdoings of their lives, pitying nought human but wroth against all the Manes (Shades). Around him stand the Furiae [Erinyes, furies] and various Mortes [Thanatoi, deaths] in order due, and savage Poena (Vengeance) thrusts forth her coils of jangling chains; the Fatae [Moirai, fates] bring the Animas (Souls) and with one gesture [literally “thumb” as in the amphitheatre] damn them; too heavy grows the work. Hard by, Minos with his dread brother [Rhadamanthys] in kindly mood counsels a milder justice, and restrains the bloodthirsty king; Cocytus and Phelgethon, swollen with tears and fire, aid in the judgement, and Styx accuses the gods of perjury. But he [Haides], when the frame of the world above was loosened [i.e. when the earth opened up and swallowed the hero Amphiaraus] and filled him with unwonted fears, quaked at the appearing stars, and thus did he speak, offended by the gladsome light: ‘What ruin of the upper world hath thrust the hateful light of day into Avernus? Who hath burst our gloom and told the silent folk of life? Whence comes this threat? Which of my brothers makes war on me? Well, I will meet him: confusion whelm all natural bounds? For whom would that please more? The third hazard hurled me defeated from the mighty heaven, and I guard the world of guilt; nor is even that mine, but lo! the dread stars search it from end to end, and gaze upon me. Does the proud ruler of Olympus spy out my strength? Mine is the prison-house, now broken, of the Gigantes, and of the Titanes, eager to force their way to the world above, and his own unhappy sire [Kronos] : why thus cruelly doth he forbid me to enjoy my mournful leisure and this untranquil peace, and to hate the light I lost? I will open all my kingdoms, if such by my pleasure, and veil Hyperion [Helios the sun] with a Stygian sky. I will not send the Arcadian [Hermes] up to the gods--why doth he come and go on errands between realm and realm?--and I will keep both the sons of Tyndareus [i.e. the Dioskouroi who divided their days equally between Olympos and the Underworld]. And why do I break Ixion on the greedy whirling of the wheel? Why do the waters not wait for Tantalus? Must I so oft endure the profanation of Chaos by living strangers? The rash ardour of Pirithous provoked me, and Theseus, sworn comrade of his daring friend [the pair attempted to abduct Persephone], and fierce Alcides [Herakles], when the iron threshold of Cerberus’ gate fell silent, its guardian removed. It shames me too, alas! how Tartarus opened a way to the Odyrsian plaint [Orpheus]; with my own eyes I saw the Eumenides [Erinyes] shed base tears at those persuasive strains, and the Sisters [Moirai, fates] repeat their allotted task; me too -, but the violence of my cruel law was stronger. Yet I have scarce ventured one stolen journey, nor was that to the stars on high, when I carried of my bride [Persephone] from the Sicilian mead: unlawfully, so they say, and forthwith comes an unjust decree from Jove [Zeus], and her mother [Demeter] cheats me of half a year. But why do I tell all this: Go, Tisiphone, avenge the abode of Tartarus! if ever thou hast wrought monsters fierce and strange, bring forth some ghastly horror, huge and unwonted, such as the sky hath never yet beheld, such as I may marvel at and thy Sisters [the Moirai] envy. Ay, and the brothers [Polyneikes and Eteokles] rush to slay each other in exultant combat; let there be one [Tydeus] who in hideous, bestial savagery shall gnaw his foeman’s head, and one [king Kreon] who shall bar the dead from the funeral fire and pollute the air with naked corpses; let the fierce Thunderer [Zeus] feast his eyes on that! Moreover, lest their fury harm my realms alone, seek one who shall make war against he gods [Kapaneus] and with smoking shield repel the fiery brand and Jove’s [Zeus’] own wrath. I will have all men fear to disturb black Tartarus no less than to set Pelion on top of leafy Ossa.’ He finished, and long since was the gloomy palace quaking at his words, and his own land and that which presses on it from above were rocking: no more mightily does Jupiter [Zeus] sway the heaven with his nod, and bow the starry poles. But what shall be thy [Amphiaraus’] doom,’ he cries, who rushest headlong through the empty realm on a path forbidden?’ As he threatens, the other draws nigh, on foot now and shadowy to view, his armour growing faint, yet in his lifeless face abides the dignity of augurship inviolate, and on his brow remains the fillet dim to behold, and in his hand is a branch of dying olive. If it be lawful and right for holy Manes (Shades) to make utterence here, O thou to all men the great Finisher, but to me, who once knew causes and beginnings, Creator also! remit, I pray, thy threatenings and thy fevered heart, nor deem worthy of thy wrath one who is but a man and fears thy laws; ‘tis for no Herculean plunder--such wars are not for me--, nor for a forbidden bride--believe these emblems--that I dare to enter Lethe: let not Cerberus flee into his cave, nor Proserpine [Persephone] shudder at my chariot. I, once the best beloved of augurs at Apollo’s shrines, call empty Chaos to bear witness--for what power to receive an oath has Apollo here?--for no crime do I suffer this unwonted fate, nor have I deserved to be thus torn from the kindly light of day; the urn of the Dictean judge doth know it, and Minos can discern the truth. Sold by the treachery of my wife [Eriphyle] for wicked gold, I joined the Argive host, not unwitting - hence this crowd of new-slain ghosts thou seest, and the victims also of this right hand; in a sudden convulsion of the earth--my mind still shrinks in horror--thy darkness swallowed me up from the midst of thousands . . . content am I to receive my Shade [Amphiaraus was not yet dead but dropped alive into Haides], nor remember my tripods any more. For what avails thee the use of prescient augury, when the Parcae [Moirai, fates] spin thy commands? Nay, be thou softened, and prove more merciful than the gods. If ever my accursed wife come hither, reserve for her thy deadly torments : she is more worthy of thy wrath, O righteous lord!’ He [Haides] accepts his prayer, and is indignant that he yields." Statius, Thebaid 11. 410 ff : "Thrice from the regions of doom thundered their [the Erinyes'] impatient monarch [Haides], and shook the depths of the earth [at the commencement of the War of Thebes] . . . The king of Tartarus [Haides] himself orders the gates to be set open [i.e. to receive the legions of the slain]." Statius, Thebaid 11. 444 ff : "The Warden of the Larvae (Shades) [lord Haides] and the third heir of the world, after the lot’s unkind apportioning, leapt down from his chariot and grew pale, for he was come to Tartarus and heaven was lost for ever." Statius, Silvae 3. 3. 21 (trans. Mozley) (Roman poetry C1st A.D.) : "Let him [the shade of a father] come, and approach the awful throne of the silent monarch [Haides] and pay his last due of gratitude and anxiously request for his son a long life." Valerius Flaccus, Argonautica 3. 380 ff (trans. Mozley) (Roman epic C1st A.D.) : "Celaeneus [the Black, Haides], sitting sable-shrouded and sword in hand, cleanses the innocent from their error." Apuleius, The Golden Ass 7. 24 ff (trans. Walsh) (Roman novel C2nd A.D.) : "I was pulled out of the hands of Orcus [Haides] [that is, saved from death]." Tryphiodorus, The Taking of Ilias 568 ff (trans. Mair) (Greek poet C5th A.D.) : "And Haides shuddered [at the slaughter of the Sack of Troy] and looked forth from his seat under earth, afraid lest in the great anger of Zeus Hermes, conductor of souls, should bring down all the race of men." Nonnus, Dionysiaca 36. 97 ff (trans. Rouse) (Greek epic C5th A.D.) : "Then Zeus Khthonios (Zeus of the Underworld) [Haides] rumbled hearing the noise of the heavenly fray above [as Poseidon and Apollon entered battle when the gods took sides in the war of Dionysos and his army against the Indians]; he feared that the Earthshaker [Poseidon], beating and lashing the solid ground with the earthquake-shock of his waves, might lever out of gear the whole universe with his trident, might move the foundations of the abysm below and show the forbidden sight of earth’s bottom, might burst all the veins of the subterranean channels and pour his water away into the pit of Tartaros, to flood the mouldering gates of the lower world. So great was the din of the gods in conflict, and the trumpets of the underworld added their noise." Nonnus, Dionysiaca 36. 200 ff : "[During the War of Dionysos against the Indians :] Lethe was choked with that great multitude of corpses brought low and scattered on every side. Aides heaved up his bar in the darkness, and opened his gates wider for the common carnage; as they descended into the pit the banks of Kharon’s river echoed the rumblings of Tartaros." Nonnus, Dionysiaca 12. 213 ff : "[Dionysos transforms his dead friend Ampelos into a grape vine at death :] For you Haides himself has become merciful, for you Persephone herself has changed her hard temper, and saved you alive in death for brother Bakkhos. You did not die . . . You are still alive, my boy, even if you died." Stesichorus, Fragment 232 (trans. Campbell, Vol. Greek Lyric III) (C7th to 6th B.C.) : "Mourning and wailing are the portion of Hades." Aeschylus, Seven Against Thebes 864 ff (trans. Weir Smyth) (Greek tragedy C5th B.C.) : "Cry out the awful hymn of the Erinys [i.e. the shrieks and cries of the grieving women] and thereafter sing the hated victory song of Aides [i.e. the funeral dirge]." Plato, Republic 427b (trans. Shorey) (Greek philosopher C4th B.C.) : “The burial of the dead and the services we must render to the dwellers in the world beyond to keep them gracious.” [I.e. the gods of the dead and the ghosts of men.] Diodorus Siculus, Library of History 5. 69. 5 (trans. Oldfather) (Greek historian C1st B.C.) : "Of Haides it is said that he laid down the rules which are concerned with burials and funerals and the honours which are paid to the dead, no concern having been given to the dead before this time; and this is why tradition tells us that Haides is lord of the dead, since there were assigned to him in ancient times the first offices in such matters and the concern for them." Statius, Thebaid 12. 557 ff (trans. Mozley) (Roman epic C1st A.D.) : "The father of the Eumenides [i.e. Haides, father of the Erinyes] and the ferryman of Lethe’s stream [Kharon] debars them [i.e. the souls of the unburied] from the Stygian gate and keeps them hovering doubtfully between the worlds of heaven and hell (Erebus)."

I) NECROMANCY OF ODYSSEUS Odysseus was instructed in the art of necromancy by the witch Kirke so that he might commune with the prophetic ghost of the seer Teiresias. According to the author of the Odyssey the rites were performed on the borders of the Underworld. Later authors, however, say that Odysseus visited the Nekromanteion (Oracle of the Dead) at Cumae in southern Italy. Homer, Odyssey 10. 495 ff (trans. Shewring) (Greek epic C8th B.C.) : "[Kirke instructs Odysseus in necromancy, the summoning of ghosts :] You must visit the house of dread Persephone and of Haides, and there seek counsel from the spirit of Theban Teiresias. The blind seer’s thought is wakeful still, for to him alone, even after death, Persephone has accorded wisdom; the other dead are but flitting shadows . . . And when you have sailed through the river Okeanos, you will see before you a marrow strand and he groves that are Persephone’s--the tall black poplars, the willows with their self-wasted fruit; then beach the vessel beside deep-eddying Okeanos and pass on foot to the dank domains of Haides. At the entrance there, the stream of Akheron is joined by the waters of Pyriphlegethon and a branch of Styx, Kokytos, and there is a rock where the two loud-roaring rivers meet. Then, lord Odysseus, you must do as I enjoin you; go forward, and dig a trench a cubit long and a cubit broad; go round this trench, pouring libation for all the dead, first with milk and honey, then with sweet wine, then with water; and sprinkle white barley-meal above. Then with earnest prayers to the strengthless presences of the dead you must promise that when you have come to Ithaka you will sacrifice in your palace a calfless heifer, the best you have, and will load a pyre with precious things; and that for Teiresias and no other you will slay, apart, a ram that is black all over, the choicest in all the flocks of Ithaka. When with these prayers you have made appeal to the noble nations of the dead, then you must sacrifice a ram and a black ewe; bend the victims' heads down towards Erebos, but turn your own head away and look towards the waters of the river. At this, the souls of the dead and gone will come flocking there. With commanding voice you must call your cmorades to flay and burn the two sheep that now lie before them, killed by your own ruthless blade, and over them to pray to the gods, to resistless Haides and dread Persephone. As for yourself, draw the keen sword from beside your thight; then, sitting down, hold back the strengthles presences of the dead from drawing nearer to the blood until you have questioned Teiresias. Then, King Odysseus, the seer will come to you very quickly, to prophesy the path before you, the long stages of your travel, and how you will reach home at last over the teeming sea."

Homer, Odyssey 11. 10 ff : "[Odysseus travels to the Underworld to consult the ghost of the seer Teiresias :] The vessel came to the bounds of eddying Okeanos, where lie the land and city of the Kimmeroi, covered with mist and cloud. never does the resplendent sun look on this people with his beams . . . dismal gloom overhangs these wretches always. Arriving there, we beached the vessel, took out the sheep and then walked onwards beside the stream of Okeanos until we came to the place that Kirke had told us of. There, Perimedes and Eurylokhos seized the victims and held them fast, while I myself drew the keen sword from besie my thigh and cut a trench a cubit long and a cubit broad. Round it I poured a libation for all the dead, first with milk and honey, then with sweet wine, then with water; over this I sprinkled white barley-meal. Then with earnest prayers to the strengthless presences of the dead I promised that when I came to Ithaka I would sacrifice in my palace a calfless heifer, the best I had, and would load a pyre with precious things; and that for Teiresias and no other I would slay, apart, a ram that was black all over, the choicest in all the flocks of Ithaka. When with my prayers and invocations I had called on the peoples of the dead, I seized the victims and cut their throats over the trench. The dark blood flowed, and the souls od the dead and gone came flocking upwards from Erebos--brides and unmarried youths, old men who had suffered much, tender girls with the heart's distress still keen, troops of warriors wounded with brazen-pointed spears, men slain in battle with blood-stained armour still upon them. With unearthly cries, from every quarter, they came crowding about the trench until pale terror began to master me. Then with urgent voice I called my comrades to flay and burn the two sheep that now lay before them, killed by my own ruthless blade, and over them to pray to the gods, to resistless Haides and dread Persephone. As for myself, I drew the keen sword from beside my thigh, seated myself and held back the strengthless preseences of the dead from drawing nearer to the blood before I had questioned Teiresias." Homer, Odyssey 11. 210 & 11. 386 : "[Odysseus performs the necromantic rites and is approached by the ghost of his mother. He questions her :] Is this some wraith that august Persephone has sent me to increase my sorrowing and my tears?’ So I spoke, and the queen my mother answered me : Alas, my child, ill-fated beyond all other mortals, this is no mockery of Persephone’s; it is all men’s fortune when they die. The sinews no longer hold flesh and bones together; these are all prey to the resistless power of fire when once the life has left the white bones; the soul takes wing as a dream takes wing, and thereafter hovers to and fro . . .' Meanwhile there appeared a whole company of women [before Odysseus], sent by Persephone the august; and these were the wives or the daughters of great men. They gathered flocking round the dark blood [of the sacrificed black sheep] all together. So they came forward one after another, and each in turn told me her lineage, for I left none of them unquestioned . . . Then, when chaste Persephone had dispersed this way and that the souls of those many women, there came before me in bitter sorrow the soul of Agamemon . . . Then there came before me the soulds of Akhilleus and Patroklos, of noble Antilokhos and of Aias . . . The soul of the fleet-foot son of Peleus went pacing forth over the field of asphodel . . . Other souls of the dead and gone still stood there sorrowfully, each of them questioning me on whatever touched them the most . . . Indeed I might then have seen [more of] those men of past days I wished to see, but before I could, there came before me with hideous clamour the thronging multitudes of the dead, and ashly terror seized hold of me. I feared that august Persephone might send against me from Haides’ house the Gorgoneion (the gorgon's head) of some grisly monster. I made for my ship at once, telling my comrades to step aboard and to loose the cables." Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca E7. 7 & 34 (trans. Aldrich) (Greek mythographer C2nd A.D.) : "He [Odysseus] sailed Okeanos, and offered sacrifices to the souls, and by Kirke's advice consulted the soothsayer Tiresias, and beheld the souls both of heroes and of heroines. He also looked on his mother Antikleia and Elpenor, who had died of a fall in the house of Kirke . . . [Upon returning to Ithaka, Odysseus slew the suitors and then :] After sacrificing to Haides, and Persephone, and Teiresias, he journeyed on foot through Epiros, and came to the Thesprotians, and having offered sacrifice according to the directions of the soothsayer Teiresias, he propitiated Poseidon." Lycophron, Alexandra 697 ff (trans. Mair) (Greek poet C3rd B.C.) : "The grove of Obrimo [i.e. the grove of Persephone near Avernos in Italia], Kore (Maiden) who dwells beneath the earth, and Pyriphleges (the Fiery Stream), where the difficult Polydegmon hill [in Italy] stretches its head to the sky . . . and the lake Aornos [i.e. lake Avernus near Cumae in Italy] rounded with a noose and the waters of Kokytos wild and dark, stream of black Styx . . . he [Odysseus] shall offer up a gift to Daeira [Persephone] and her consort, fastening his helmet to the head of a pillar."

II) NECROMANCY OF TEIRESIAS In Statius' Thebaid the seer Teiresias performs necromancy to commune with the dead when King Oidipous would learn the reason for the plague inflicting Thebes. Seneca, Oedipus 395 ff (trans. Miller) (Roman tragedy C1st A.D.) : "[The seer Teiresias declares that he will perform necromancy :] We must unseal the earth, must implore the implacable divinity of Dis [Haides], must draw forth hither the people [ghosts] of infernal Styx.'" Statius, Thebaid 4. 410 ff (trans. Mozley) (Roman epic C1st A.D.) : "He [the seer Teiresias] prepares the rites of Lethe [i.e. nekromankia], and makes ready beforehand to evoke the monarch [Haides] sunk below the confines of [the river] Ismenos where it mingles with the deep, and makes purgation all around with the torn entrails of sheep and the strong smell of sulphur, and with fresh herbs and the long mutterings of prayer . . . [Teiresias] bids the dark-fleeced sheep and black oxen be set before him . . . Then he entwined their fierce horns with wreaths of dusky hue, handling them himself, and first at the edge of that well-known wood [i.e. one sacred to the goddess Hekate] he nine times spills the lavish draughts of Bacchus into a hollowed trench, and gifts of vernal milk and Attic rain [i.e. honey] and propitiatory blood to the Shades below; so much is poured out as the dry earth will drink. Then they roll tree trunks thither, and the sad priest bids there be three altar-fires for Hecate and three for the maidens born of cursed Acheron [the Erinyes]; for thee, lord of Avernus [Haides], a heap of pinewood though sunk into the ground yet towers high into the air; next to this an altar of lesser bulk is raised to Ceres of the Underworld [Persephone]; in front and on every side the cypress of lamentation intertwines them. And now, their lofty heads marked with the sword and the pure sprinkled meal, the cattle fell under the stroke; then the virgin Manto [daughter of Teiresias], catching the blood in bowls, makes first libation, and moving thrice round all the pyres, as her holy sire commands, offers the half-dead tissues and yet living entrails, nor delays to set the devouring fire to the dark foliage. And when Tiresias heard the branches crackling in the flames and the grim piles roaring--for the burning heat surges before his face, and the fiery vapour fills the hollows of his eyes--he exclaimed, and the pyres trembled, and the flames cowered at his voice : Abodes of Tartarus and awful realm of insatiable Mors [Thanatos, death], and thou, most cruel of the brothers [Haides], to whom the Shades are given to serve thee, and the eternal punishments of the damned obey thee, and the palace of the underworld, throw open in answer to my knowing the silent places and empty void of stern Persephone, and send forth the multitude that lurk in hollow night.'" Statius, Thebaid 4. 520 ff : "[The blind Teiresias while performing necromancy declares :] Himself [lord Haides] I behold, all pale upon the throne, with Stygian Eumenides [Erinyes] ministering to his fell deeds about him, and the remorseless chambers and gloomy couch of Stygian Juno [Persephone].'"

III) NECROMANCY OF AESON & ALKIMEDE Aeson and his wife, the Thessalian witch Alkimede, perform necromancy to learn the fate of their son, the hero Jason, and to bring down the curse of the dead upon King Pelias, who is plotting their death. Valerius Flaccus, Argonautica 1. 730 ff (trans. Mozley) (Roman epic C1st A.D.) : "[Alkimede the mother of Jason, who has departed on his quest for the Golden Fleece, uses necromancy to summon the ghosts of the dead :] Unto the lord of Tartarus [Haides] and unto the Stygian ghosts was Alcimede [i.e. the mother of Jason] bringing holy offerings in fear for her mighty son [Jason, if Shades summoned forth might give her surer knowledge. Even Aeson [her husband] himself, who shares her anxiety but who hides such unmanly fears in his heart, yields and is led by his wife. In a trench stands blood and plenteous offering to hidden Phlegethon and with fierce cries the aged witch calls upon her departed ancestors and the grandson of great Pleione [i.e. Hermes, guide of the dead]. And now at the sound of the spell rose a face, insubstantial, and [the ghost of] Kretheus [the father of Aeson] gazed upon his mournful son and daughter-in-law, and when he had sipped the blood he began to utter these words . . . [The ghost tells him that Jason is safe, but King Pelias is plotting Aeson’s death.] He [Aeson] returns to the holy rites [i.e. the necromancy]. Beneath the gloom of an ancient cypress, squalid and ghastly with darksome hue, a bull still stood, dark blue fillets on his horns, his brow rough with the foliage of yew; the beast too was downcast, panting and restless, and terrified at the sight of the shade. The witch [Alkimede], according to the custom of her evil race had kept him, chosen above all others, to use him now at last for these hellish practises. When Aeson saw that the bull still remained at the hour of the awful rites unslain, he dooms him to death, and with one hand upon the horns of the fated victim speaks for the last time O ye [ghost of Kretheus] who received from Jupiter [Zeus] your reign and the light of life not idly spent . . . my father, summoned forth from the shades to view my death and to endure again the forgotten sorrows of men on earth, O grant me entry to the abode of quiet [Haides], and may the victim that I send before me win favour for me in your dwelling. Thou, O maid [Dike lady Justice], that dost report guilty deeds to Jove [Zeus], who lookest down upon earth with unerring eyes, ye avenging goddesses [Erinyes], thou Divine Law, and thou Retribution (Poena), aged mother of the Furiai [Erinyes], enter into the sinful palace of the king [Pelias], and bring upon him your fierce torches. Let accursed fear ravish his maddened heart; nor let him deem that my son alone will come with grim weapons in his bark . . . [and take vengeance on the king.]' Then he appeased the goddess of triple form [i.e. Hekate, goddess of earth-bound ghosts], and with his last sacrifice offers a prayer to the Stygian abodes, rehearsing backward a spell soon, soon to prove persuasive; for without that no thin shade will the dark ferryman [Kharon] take away, and bound they stand at the mouth of Orcus [Haides]."

IV) NECROMANCY OF MEDEA Witches such as Medea were practitioners of the necromantic rites. Medea employs these powers in a spell to restore youth to Aeson. Ovid, Metamorphoses 7. 242 ff (trans. Melville) (Roman epic C1st B.C. to C1st A.D.) : "[Medea uses her magic to restore Aeson's youth :] Two turf altars she built [for the ritual], the right to Hecate, the left to Juventas [Hebe, the goddess of Youth], wreathed with the forest’s mystic foliage, and dug two trenches in the ground beside and then performed her rites. Plunging a knife into a black sheep’s throat she drenched the wide ditches with blood; next from a chalice poured a stream of wine and from a second chalice warm frothing milk and, chanting magic words, summoned the Deities of Earth (Numina Terrena) and prayed the sad shades’ monarch (Rex Umbrarum) [Haides] and his stolen bride [Persephone] that, of their mercy, from old Aeson’s frame they will not haste to steal the breath of life . . . [and she then applied her potions to the body of the man.] And Aeson woke and marvelled as he saw his prime restored of forty years before."

V) THE NECROMANCY OF WITCHES Not only Medea and Alkimede (above) but witches in general were regarded as practitioners of the necromantic rites. Statius, Thebaid 3. 140 ff (trans. Mozley) (Roman epic C1st A.D.) : "The gloomy councils of the Shades complain [at being summoned from Haides by a witch], and black Avernus’ sire [lord Haides] waxes indignant

VI) THE ORACLES OF THE DEAD The Oracle of the Dead or Nektromanteion in Thesprotia was a shrine dedicated to the gods Haides and Persephone. The oracles of the daimones Amphiaraus and Trophonios in Boiotia were also necromantic in nature. I) ERINYES & THE VENGEAFUL GHOST Aeschylus, Libation Bearers 380 ff (trans. Weir Smyth) (Greek tragedy C5th B.C.) : "[A supplication to the ghost of the murdered king :] This has pierced the earth and reached your [the ghost's] ear as if it were an arrow. O Zeus, O Zeus [here Haides, the Zeus of the underworld], who send long-deferred retribution up from below [i.e. in the form of the Erinyes] onto the reckless and wicked deeds done by the hands of mortals." Seneca, Hercules Furens 100 ff (trans. Miller) (Roman tragedy C1st A.D.) : "Begin, [Erinyes] handmaids of Dis [Haides], make haste to brandish the burning pine." Valerius Flaccus, Argonautica 3. 380 ff (trans. Mozley) (Roman epic C1st A.D.) : "We [the souls of the dead] are not dissolved into the breezes or into mere bones at the last: anger abides and grief endures. Thereafter when they are come to the throne of Awful Jove [Haides] and have set forth all the sorrowful story of their dreadful end, the gate of death is opened for them and they may return a second time [i.e. to the earth as vengeful ghosts]; one of the Sisters [i.e. the Erinyes] is given them as a companion, and they range together over lands and seas. Each involved in penalties the guilty souls of his own foes; they rack them with various terrors after their deserving. But those whose hands have dripped with blood unwillingly--or were it cruel mischance, though nigh to guilt, that swept away the wretches - these men their own minds harry in divers ways, and their own deeds vex the doers; languid now and ventureless they decline into tears and spiritless alarms and sickly sloth [i.e. in their grief at having accidentally killed someone]: such thou dost here behold . . . Celaeneus [Haides], sitting sable-shrouded and sword in hand, cleanses the innocent from their error, and remitting their fault unwinds a spell to appease the angry Shades. He it was who taught me [the seer Mopsos] what lustrations should be made to the slain, he of his good pleasure opened the earth to Erebus below. When therefore the orient sets the crimson seas aflame, do thou summon thy comrades to sacrifice, and bring two steers to the mighty gods; for me were it wrong meanwhile to approach your gathering, until I spend the night in cleansing prayers [i.e. in preparation for the ceremony of purification to cleanse a man of the crime of murder, which drives away the haunting Erinyes and the avenging ghost of the dead]." Statius, Thebaid 8. 21 ff (trans. Mozley) (Roman epic C1st A.D.) : "[Haides commands the Erinys :] Go, Tisiphone, avenge the abode of Tartarus! if ever thou hast wrought monsters fierce and strange, bring forth some ghastly horror, huge and unwonted, such as the sky hath never yet beheld, such as I may marvel at and thy Sisters [the Moirai] envy.'"

II) VENGEAFUL GHOSTS ON THE BATTLEFIELD Valerius Flaccus, Argonautica 4. 258 ff (trans. Mozley) (Roman epic C1st A.D.) : "At their [ghosts of the men slain by the wrestler Ampycus] entreaty father Tartarus [Haides] sends forth in a hollow cloud the Shades of the slain to view at last the well-earned retribution [Ampycus’ own death]; the mountain-tops grow black with them." Statius, Thebaid 11. 410 ff (trans. Mozley) (Roman epic C1st A.D.) : "The king of Tartarus [Haides] himself orders the gates to be set open [ready to receive the legions of newly dead from war], and the Ogygian Manes (Ghosts) to attend their kindred’s monstrous deeds [in the internecine War of the Seven Against Thebes]. Seated upon their native hills they pollute the day with grisly band, and rejoice that their own crimes should be surpassed."

III) CURSE OF THE ERINYES Homer, Iliad 9. 450 ff (trans. Lattimore) (Greek epic C8th B.C.) : "I [Phoinix] first left Hellas . . . running from the hatred of Ormenos' son Amyntor, my father; who hated me for the sake of a fair-haired mistress. For he made love to her himself, and dishonoured his own wife, my mother; who was forever taking my knees and entreating me to lie with this mistress instead so that she would hate the old man. I was persuaded and did it; and my father when he heard of it straightway called down his curses, and invoked against me the dreaded Erinyes that I might never have any son born of my seed to dandle on my knees; and the divinities, Zeus Khthonios (of the underworld) [Haides] and Persephone the honoured goddess, accomplished his curses." Homer, Iliad 9. 565 ff : "Meleagros lay mulling his heart-sore anger, raging by reason of his mother’s [Althaia’s] curses, which she called down from the gods upon him, in deep grief for the death of her brother, and many times beating with her hands on the earth abundant she called on Haides and on honoured Persephone, lying at length along the ground, and the tears were wet on her bosom, to give death to her son; and Erinys, the mist-walking, she of the heart without pity, heard her out of the dark places." Apollonius Rhodius, Argonautica 3. 401 ff (trans. Rieu) (Greek epic C3rd B.C.) : "[Khalkiope addresses her sister Medea :] I implore you . . . not to stand by while they [her sons, who are accompanying the Argonauts] are mercilessly done to death. If you do so, may I die with my dear sons and haunt you afterwards from Haides like an avenging Erinys (Fury) . . . ’ [Medea replies to Khalkiope:] Sister you left me speechless when you talked of curses and avenging Erinyes (Furies).'" Valerius Flaccus, Argonautica 7. 311 ff (trans. Mozley) (Roman epic C1st A.D.) : "[Medea] wearies heaven above and Tartarus beneath with her complaints [about her love for Jason]; she beats upon the ground, and murmuring into her clutching hands calls on the Queen of Night [Hekate] and Dis [Haides] to bring her aid by granting death, and to send him who is the cause of her madness down with her to destruction." Statius, Thebaid 1. 46 ff (trans. Mozley) (Roman epic C1st A.D.) : "[Oidipous blinded himself upon learning that he had slain his father and married his mother. His sons then treated him with cruel disdain and so he summons the Erinyes to punish them :] Oedipus with avenging hand probed deep his sinning eyes and sunk his guilty shame in eternal night . . . yet with unwearied wings the fierce daylight of the mind hovers around him, and the avenging Dirae [Erinyes] of his crimes assail his heart. Then he displays to heaven those empty orbs, the cruel, pitiful punishment of his own lie, and with blood-stained hands beats upon the hollow earth, and in dire accents utters this prayer : Gods [Haides, Persephone and the Erinyes] who hold sway over guilty souls and over Tartarus crowded with the damned, and thou O Styx, whom I behold, ghastly in thy shadowy depths, and thou Tisiphone, so oft the object of my prayer, be favourable now, and further my unnatural wish . . . Sightless though I was and driven from my throne, my sons, on whatever couch begotten, attempted not to give me guidance or consolation in my grief . . . and they mock my blindness, they abhor their father’s groans . . . Do thou at least, my due defender, come hither, and begin a work of vengeance that will blast their seed for ever!'" Suidas s.v. Persephone (trans. Suda On Line) (Byzantine Greek lexicon C10th A.D.) : "Persephone : An Underworld spirit (katageios daimon). Elektra says : O house of Haides and Persephone! O Hermes of the Underworld and holy Ara (Curse) and divine Erinnyes (Furies)! You who watch over those dying unjustly and those being robbed of a marriage bed: Come! Help avenge the murder of our father!'"

IV) CURSE-OATHS BOUND BY HAIDES & THE ERINYES When Haides was invoked in an oath, the connotation was "let me be cursed, if I dare to break the oath." Apollonius Rhodius, Argonautica 2. 259 ff (trans. Rieu) (Greek epic C3rd B.C.) : "[King Phineos swears an oath to the Argonauts :] By the Powers below [i.e. Haides, Persephone and the Erinyes]--and may they blast me if I die forsworn--that you will not incur the wrath of Heaven by helping me.'" Seneca, Oedipus 247 ff (trans. Miller) (Roman tragedy C1st A.D.) : "[King Oidipous swears an oath :] Now at Heaven’s command let the crime be expiated [i.e. the murder of king Laios]. Whoever of the gods dost look with favour upon kingdoms--thou [Zeus], thou whose are the laws of the swift-revolving heavens; and thou [Helios the sun], greatest glory of the unclouded sky . . . and thou, his sister [Selene the moon] . . . thou [Poseidon] whom the winds obey . . . and thou [Haides] who dost allot homes devoid of light--do ye all attend: Him by whose hand Laïus fell may no peaceful dwelling, no friendly household gods, no hospitable land in exile entertain.'" Seneca, Oedipus 868 ff : "[Oidipous curses himself when he learns that he has killed his father and married his mother :] `Yawn, earth! And do thou [Haides], king of the dark world, ruler of shades, to lowest Tartarus hurl this unnatural interchange ‘twixt brood and stock.'"

HELM OF HAIDES The magical helm of Haides was crafted for the god by the elder Kyklopes to use as a weapon in the Titan-War. It bestowed complete invisibility upon the wearer (making him indiscernable even to gods). SCEPTRE OF HAIDES Haides wielded a royal sceptre, a magical death-dealing staff which could sunder the earth, creating a passage between the world of the living and the world of the dead. PALACE OF HAIDES The golden palace of Haides lay in the dark, dank realms of the Underworld. THRONE OF HAIDES Haides sat dispensing fate upon the newly dead, from a golden throne in the hall of his palace, surrounded by the three Judges. KEYS OF HAIDES The Gates of Haides were securely locked to prevent the escape of souls. Haides (or his doorman Aiakos) held the golden keys. HOUND OF HAIDES The gate of the house of Haides was guarded by the ferocious three-headed, monster-dog Kerberos. [See KERBEROS] ORCHARDS OF HAIDES Near the palace of Haides lay the god's famed orchard of pomegranate trees. From one of these came the fruit which trapped Persephone in the Underworld (permanently but for a special dispensation from Zeus which allowed her to return to the world of the living for part of the year). CATTLE OF HAIDES King Haides possessed a herd of immortal, sable-black cattle which roamed the asphodel fields of Haides under the care of the daimon herdsman Menoetes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DarkSleach (talkcontribs) 02:55, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi DarkSleach. I see no reference above to the Cyclopes, and the only reference I see to Asclepius is this passage from Diodorus Siculus:
"It was believed that he [Asklepios] had brought back to life many who had died. Consequently, the myth goes on to say, Haides brought accusation against Asklepios, charging him before Zeus of acting to the detriment of his own province, for, he said, the number of the dead was steadily diminishing, now that men were being healed by Asklepios. So Zeus, in indignation, slew Asklepios with his thunderbolt."
But nowhere does it say that "Zeus returned Asclepius" from the underworld. So you still need to provide a reliable source for that before it can be added to the article (please see WP:Verifiability). You write "You have no right to delete anything that is a fact?|", please realize that just because something is true does not mean it belongs in the article, it must also be appropriate (e,g. relevant, important, on-topic etc.).
Paul August 20:43, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

### You Did Not Listen To What I Told You

I said if you want challenge what I said. Prove me wrong. I did not give you the source to Asclepis turning into a god. Because I assumed you all ready knew that. You must not know crap about Greek Mythology. I research it every day. Been doing it for years. Look up the god Asclepius your self. I am not playing your game. Your trying to vandalize my work is what your doing. You should all ready know that Asclepius is a god. Zeus did bring him back. It's written on college websites and books. I cant give them to you because I dont recall. Where I read them. Go look it up before you decide to delete what I wrote. By the way your not the boss. Put anything in that is fact. You want to put something in do it. But dont delete anything I put in when it is a fact. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DarkSleach (talkcontribs) 04:44, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

You write: Prove me wrong, but that's not how Wikipedia works -- it is your responsibility to provide reliable source for what you want to add to an article (see WP:PROVEIT), please familiarize yourself with Wikipedia's policies (see WP:POLICY). Paul August 12:15, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

### Another thing

Thanks for discussing all this with me. You may well be right that there are myths which tell that Zeus returned Asclepius and the Cyclopes from the underworld, but you can't expect everyone to just accept your word for it, that's not how Wikipedia works. However, you don't need to give an ancient source, a reliable secondary source is in fact even better, so a "published book" -- assuming it's a reliable source (see WP:RS) -- is just fine. I've been trying myself to find a source for this, and have so far but with no luck. As for your writing′ I will just revive it again a thousand times, please don't do this, that is against Wikipedia policy (see WP:CONSENSUS, and WP:EDITWAR).
By the way please sign your posts (see WP:SIGN), by typing four tildes in a row: ~~~~. Thanks, Paul August 12:28, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

### Ok then

Thank you for your respectful replie. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DarkSleach (talkcontribs) 01:51, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

You're welcome. Paul August 22:08, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

## Early greetings for the new year

 Best Wishes for a Happy New Year! May 2013 bring you rewarding experiences and an abundance of everything you most treasure. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:53, 28 December 2012 (UTC) Victory, Janus, Chronos, and Gaea (1532–34) by Giulio Romano

This year, showing how Cronus and Chronus were regularly and purposefully "confused" with each other is on my mythology to-do list. Hope all is well with you, Cynwolfe (talk) 16:53, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Thank you very much! All is very well with me. I don't interact as much as I should, but I always notice and appreciate your work, and I always enjoy seeing you here and there. Happy holidays, and hope all is well with you too. Paul August 19:19, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

## Last change

Hi, you may not have noticed, but your recent contributions have changed some parts of the text. If that was not your intention, do not worry, I proceeded to restore the item. I'll note that the change of content must be justified in the talk page of the article and hopefully you have a good intention, otherwise your actions will be considered vandalism. Thank you. (Slurpy121 (talk) 00:13, 1 January 2013 (UTC))

Huh? Paul was reverting your removal of content without an edit summary or discussion on the talk page of Classical republic. You might want to be a bit more careful about tossing around the term vandalism and remember to remain logged in when editing: editing the same page from an account and an IP within a matter of minutes, and warning your own IP about its edits, looks a lot like a concerted effort at WP:SOCKPUPPETRY. 02:14, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
Anyways, I would like to talk to you sometime about the subject. (Slurpy121 (talk) 02:45, 1 January 2013 (UTC))
You may not remove other people's comments from talk pages, as you did to mine here. 03:52, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

## Labours of Hercules

Indeed

Well, I'm always aware of your presence, as I become less vigilant regarding mythology articles when you're around. I don't know what to do about the recent string of infantile but not-quite-vandalistic edits at Labours of Hercules that occurred over the holiday season. There have been several intervening valid edits that may be tedious to reconstruct. When I noticed it last night, I threw up my hands in despair and moved on. Thoughts? Really, the whole article needs an overhaul. Cynwolfe (talk) 20:45, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

... needs an overhaul ... yes, like many others. But we can't do everything. And I'm an old curmudgeon who only does what he wants ;-) Paul August 21:18, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

..... and it turns out (apparently) that what I wanted to do was something like this. Not an overhaul but ... Paul August 21:33, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

## Help needed

See User talk:Moonriddengirl#User Mondigomo and massive copyvio -some editor here have been involved in some of the articles this editor has left full of copyvio. Dougweller (talk) 16:59, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi Doug. I'll see what I can do. Paul August 17:31, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. It's now properly organised at Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/Mondigomo. Dougweller (talk) 12:17, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

## Factorization Page Changes

Today you justly deleted my edit on the "Factorization" page, but would you put my information back on with proper LATEX? This was my first wikipedia post and I was not sure how to format it, but the math is sound. thank you, Fragershroom (talk) 04:54, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi Fragershroom, and welcome. Sorry I had to delete your contribution. I will take a look and see what I can do. Regards, Paul August 11:55, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

I am glad to let you know that the LaTeX issues are fixed, and you do not need to worry about fixing the page.If you want to check the math, go ahead. Thank you, Fragershroom (talk) 01:22, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

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## Questia email failure: Will resend codes

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## Questia email success: Codes resent

Check your email. Enjoy! Ocaasi t | c 21:40, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

The edits to which you are referring look good to me. Happy editing!Jpcohen (talk) 01:03, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

No. I'm saying that the edits that you made, removing these article adjectives look good to me. Sorry for the lack of clarity.Jpcohen (talk) 01:17, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Ok, then I'll re do my undo. Paul August 01:20, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

## Gone?

Uncertain access? Does that mean I'll have to pay closer attention to mythology articles? Bleah. I hope you're going somewhere romantically remote and even better tropical (it's -14° C. where I am at the moment). Bon voyage! Cynwolfe (talk) 14:11, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Uncertain, but not apparently non-existant. As always you need to attend to whatever strikes your fancy. Yes, tropical, romantic and remote. As I seem to have better access than I might have had, I will probably be in and out. See you around. Paul August 14:55, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

## Nationality of Lagrange

Hallo Paul,
I reverted again your edit on the Lagrange article. In the manual of style of biographies there is a guideline (WP:OPENPARA) which specifies which nationality should be mentioned in the first paragraph of an article. It is quite clear and, in the case of Lagrange, it is also indisputable that his notability was reached when he was in Turin. If you don't agree with the guideline (which of course is not perfect, but in my opinion has the advantage to stop a lot of the nationalistic edit wars which plague wikipedia), please go on the related talk page and discuss there, but please understand that as long as a guideline is there, it should be followed. Talking about my fellow citizens, Fermi, Segrè and Bruno Rossi became 100% Italians, while Giacconi and Viterbi are now 100% Yankees. Of, course, starting with the second paragraph you can write all what you want. :-) Thanks, Alex2006 (talk) 07:32, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Well, ok if you insist, I won't argue (but I don't think I read the guideline quite like you do, and note for example that Britannica describes Lagrange as an "Italian French mathematician"). Paul August 12:04, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Thanks! The GL says:"...or if notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable." I think that it is clear, and in our case, notability was reached for sure not in France (most of his most important contributions were accomplished while he was in Germany). It is also quite evident for me that Lagrange was an Italian mathematician who later became French (BTW, asking Napoleon to annex its homeland - Piedmont - into the French Empire: so to say, he moved into France bringing his own country :-) ), and we can write it after the first sentence. Alex2006 (talk) 12:45, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Yes but the sentence you quote starts off with "In most modern-day cases this will mean" (italics added for emphasis), and in any case WP:OPENPARA is only a guideline. My view is that Lagrange is considered to be both Italian and French, and Wikipedia should not choose one over the other. Paul August 12:55, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Please read the end of this thread regarding Enrico Fermi, another famous Italian/something-else scientist (if you have time, you can read the whole thread :-)). About being "only" a guideline, I think that guidelines can be discussed, but as long as they are in force cannot be ignored. Alex2006 (talk) 14:08, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

## Eros

I may've just done bad things at Eros. I've been working on Cupid, and thought I was going to be working on it tonight because my Valentine was on deadline for a project. Turns out he finished early, and I may not get to finish what I intended. Anyway, when I was reviewing Eros I noticed that the section on his nature as a primordial god was completely missing, and the other background section as well. I don't see anything hideously misleading in those sections, and they're better than nothing, so went back to a version that had them. I did this in haste, but it seemed as if little or no real editing had been done in the meantime … mainly just vandalistic deletion and reversion. Since I know you watch the page, just thought I'd mention it, in case I screwed something up. Cynwolfe (talk) 21:51, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Your edits look good. Paul August 22:33, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

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## User Rfkjnfjnj

why aren't you letting me spit on Plato's grave? my addition was totally awesome and lots of people think itRfkjnfjnj (talk) 20:24, 11 March 2013 (UTC)why dont u find the sources hunty xoxoxoxox <3

? Paul August 21:09, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

## Article Feedback deployment

Hey Paul August; I'm dropping you this note because you've used the article feedback tool in the last month or so. On Thursday and Friday the tool will be down for a major deployment; it should be up by Saturday, failing anything going wrong, and by Monday if something does :). Thanks, Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 23:29, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

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## Moron

get a life — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.125.251.254 (talk) 22:56, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

## Sources

Hi Paul, did you want the sources for Greek Tragedy? If so, shoot me an email, I've nuked my old email, so I don't have your address anymore. 02:58, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi David. I was really hoping that there might be a link you could post that would give all of us access to them, but I'm guessing not? I doubt that I will be able to do much with them on my own. But I will send you an email. On a related minor note, what do you think of the title of this article: Herakles' Children? I suspect that either "'Heracleidae'" or "The Children of Heracles'" would be better titles. Paul August 13:07, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
Yeah ... I'm just not comfortable with posting entire books online. I've sent some already and will sent some more in a bit. I understand not having the Wikienergy to undertake a big cleanup right now. As for the title: I think the person who wrote the original article must have had the one translation listed there that uses Herakles' Children as title. The two titles you're used to are also the only two I'm used to. I think Heracleidae is actually more common, but my view might be skewed because I only read specialist literature. In my opinion patronymics shouldn't be translated, but my Wikipedia rule of thumb for this issue has been to go with whatever the Loeb series has done recently ... in this case Children of Heracles. So, yeah, I agree with you that it would be better moved and I'd support either headword. 15:40, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

## Template:Divine Comedy navbox

I see you have been an active editor at Divine Comedy. Would you take a look at Template:Divine Comedy navbox?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 08:10, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

## Ok

Since you keep deleting all my edits. Like when i put in that Zeus, Hades, and Poseidon Defeated the titans. You deleted it because your trying to delete all my edits. You must know me some how. Your a stalker. Your harrasing me. Now i will return the favor. Since you like to deltete all my edits. I am do right now delete everything you have ever put in now. Have a great day.

## Ok

Since you keep deleting all my edits. Like when i put in that Zeus, Hades, and Poseidon Defeated the titans. You deleted it because your trying to delete all my edits. You must know me some how. Your a stalker. Your harrasing me. Now i will return the favor. Since you like to deltete all my edits. I am do right now delete everything you have ever put in now. Have a great day. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.174.186.167 (talk) 00:40, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

## Ok

another thing i just did. I just delted 5 of your edits on different pages right now. Tomorrow 10 more. I just deleted everything you put in on the Cepheus King of Tegea page. You try to restore it. I will delete again because I can. Stop deleting my edits on the Cyclopes page. Everythiong I put in is fact. Keep deleting my information. I will delete everything you ever put in. Have a good day. Moron — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.174.186.167 (talk) 00:50, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

DarkSleach, I'm sorry that you feel that you've been mistreated. What do you want me to do? Even if I "stop deleting" your edits on the Cyclops page, I can't stop other editor's from doing so. Notice that many of your edits to that page, including your last one, have been undone by several other editors besides me. If you keep doing what you've been doing you will probably end up being blocked or banned see WP:BLOCK and WP:BAN. There are other ways to try to resolve this problem see WP:DISPUTE. I'm willing to discuss any of this with you. Regards Paul August 11:11, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

## Discussion at Talk:Eagle (Roman military standard)#Second survey

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Eagle (Roman military standard)#Second survey. —Sowlos 09:15, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

## Leibniz on energy

Hi Paul, concerning the recent edits at Leibniz, the relevant reference seems to be Ariew and Garber. There are two mentions of kinetic energy on the page. The first one is not relevant, as you pointed out in your message summary. The second one seems to bear out the claim on Leibniz and kinetic energy, and provides the reference to Ariew and Garber. Tkuvho (talk) 16:20, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi Tkuvho. Thomas Kuhn the famous physicist, historian and philosopher of science wrote an article titled "Energy Conservation as an Example of Simultaneous Discovery" in which he lists twelve possible candidates for the title of the discoverer of conservation of energy none of whom were Libnitz (see [2]). See also Helmholtz and the British scientific elite: From force conservation to energy conservation. I'm curious what Ariew and Garber have to say exactly. Paul August 17:31, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Possibly one is talking about different conservation laws. What you possibly have in mind is the conservation of the sum potential+kinetic. What Leibniz was referring to was the conservation of total kinetic energy (no gravity) in a system of, say, elastic balls. Tkuvho (talk) 17:51, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
I followed your link on Kuhn, and then followed their link on "conservation of energy". Their historical section states: "History. The principle of the conservation of energy has a long and elaborate history, stemming from the 1670s theory of vis viva or “living force” of German mathematician Gottfried Leibniz, to debates on the caloric theory, etc." So in a way this supports the claim on Leibniz. Tkuvho (talk) 17:59, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Yes, this supports what our articles on Liebnitz and conservation of energy say, but not what the IP wanted our article on Liebnitz to say, namely that Liebnitz was the discoverer of the conservation of energy. Paul August 18:16, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Would it be appropriate to mention in the introduction that Leibniz discovered the law of conservation of vis viva a.k.a. kinetic energy? The sources seem to be in agreement on this. Tkuvho (talk) 18:40, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
But there is no "law of conservation of kinetic energy" (doesn't work for inelastic collisions, as you point out above). So to be accurate you'd have to say something like "Leibniz discovered that for elastic collisions, kinetic energy was conserved". That is probably accurate, but that leaves the question of whether it is important enough to be mentioned in the lead? I don't know. Paul August 12:57, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
I agree with your conclusion. I just thought such a discussion is a more constructive approach to the issue than the series of mutual reverts at Leibniz. Would it be OK to copy this thread to the Talk:Leibniz so the IP has a chance to respond? Tkuvho (talk) 13:51, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
Sure, and yes discussion is best. Paul August 17:08, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

## Xena of Amphipolis

Please refer to the writings of Dasopholios before deselecting the resource link of Xena of Amphipolis as valid? Thanks in advance I will send on my research papers FYI. David Greene PHD @ Harvard. 65.175.179.93 (talk) 03:18, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi David. Thanks for the note. Any source you can provide would be helpful. Who is Dasopholios? I can find nothing on anyone by that name. Paul August 11:04, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

## Kabeirides

Hi Paul, saw your edit summary at Hephaestus. I agree with your removal, but since you ask who that Kabeirides is ... The Kabeirides are a trio of obscure nymphs who were either the sisters (Pherecydes) or consorts (Acusilaus) of the Kabeiroi—both cited by Strabo 10.3.21. Residue of this info shows up in Stephanus, too. That's the entirety of what antiquity has to say about them. 01:47, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

My question was mostly rhetorical, but thanks. Paul August 10:01, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
Oh. I sure as hell had no idea who they were. 11:19, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
;-) Paul August 12:13, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
P. S. Perhaps in the same vein, any thoughts on "Xena of Amphipolis" see immediately above and recent edits to Amphipolis. In particular do you know who "Dasopholios" might be? Paul August 12:20, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
I saw that, but didn't want to comment since I'd just have been a jerk to the IP-editor: you're a lot better at assuming good faith than I am. Dasopholios has enough of a veneer of plausibility on it that it could be imagined as a single fragment historian in Mueller or something, but it ain't an actual Greek name. 17:24, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

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List of lunar deities (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver)
Selene (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver)

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## Thanks for improving my Pergamon edits!

I was in the middle of trying to improve Pergamon when I was interrupted by a small person needing tutoring. What a lovely surprise to find that the cites had already been cleaned up while I was busy!Mellsworthy (talk) 03:02, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

My pleasure. Your edits have improved the article. And more could be done. Regards. Paul August 10:06, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

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## Cerberus

Good catch at Cerberus. I half revert far too often. 01:56, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
You're welcome. I make similar mistakes. Paul August 13:24, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

## Message

How can I put a message to you, christian? If we are talking about a God, it should be in capital letter, right? Southamerican (talk) 00:12, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

No. In polytheistic contexts "god" and "goddess" are not capitalized. Paul August 01:23, 3 May 2013 (UTC)