Wikipedia:External links/Noticeboard

Welcome to the external links noticeboard
This page is for reporting possible breaches of the external links guideline. Post questions here regarding whether particular external links are appropriate or compliant with Wikipedia's guidelines for external links. Provide links to the relevant article(s), talk page(s), and external links(s) that are being discussed. Questions about prominent websites like YouTube, IMDb, Twitter, or Find a Grave might be addressed with information from this guide. Sections older than 10 days archived by MiszaBot. (For help, see Wikipedia:Purge) If you mention specific editors, you must notify them. You may use {{subst:ELN-notice}} to do so.
Search this noticeboard & archives Additional notes: Concerns with links used as references should be handled at the reliable sources noticeboard. For cases involving blatant spamming, please file a report at the spam project. Obvious cases of corporate vanity can be tagged with {{db-g11}}. This board is not intended for generalized discussion about the external links guidelines themselves, which should be handled at the guideline talk page. To mark a report resolved, place {{Resolved|Your reason here ~~~~}} at the top of the section.
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Template:Osmrelation

This template is getting out of control - Think its time we talk about a deletion of this spam template that links our readers to site that violates many of our WP:LINKSTOAVOID rules. What do you gys think should we put it up for deletion talks?Moxy (talk) 15:11, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Really? Open Street Map violates LINKSTOAVOID? How? —Tom Morris (talk) 17:43, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

- Simply dont see how : Alabama an open wiki with rich media is a resource that would help the articles become featured or even GA. We are not here to help other wikis by recruiting by way of spamming Main Page

• Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a featured article.
• Links to open wikis
• Direct links to documents that require external applications or plugins (such as Flash or Java) to view the content, unless the article is about such file formats. Moxy (talk) 22:30, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

The major problem is that it violates the formatting requirements for non-WMF external links. I have just expanded Wikipedia:External links#How_to_link to explain. The template should either be converted to an acceptable inline format (see Template:Facebook) or replaced with manual links and sent to WP:TFD. It is not okay for non-WMF websites to ape the style of the WMF sister project templates. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:05, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Hi guys, just spotted this conversation. Do you think your last edit do Wikipedia:External links#How_to_link is a consensual one? I do not see any discussion about is, you just added it to a content guideline purely by yourself. The sentence "Do not create graphical templates for non-WMF websites, even if these websites are also wikis." may therefore be removed, because it has no consensus behind it, am I right? I think we should distinguish between links to proprietary/copyrighted content and too free content. I do not see a valid reason why a high-quality free content projects (like OSM or Wikitravel) could not have graphical templates... Does it really matter these are not WMF members? My common sence says it does not. Cheers, --Kozuch (talk) 09:50, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Agree that a site being part of WMF or not should not be a reason to have, or have not, special linking templkates. It should exist only when the target brings exceptional extra information to the articles. This on does not, thus I see no need for it.

PS: Also, OpenStreetMap is already VERY prominently visible and easy to use when clicking on coordinates. This template will lead to excessive linking as much as to visual clutter. - Nabla (talk) 11:26, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Will bring up the templae for deletion in a few days - if not one positive reply is forth coming bedsides from its creator .Moxy (talk) 23:50, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Kozuch, "consensus" means that people think something is a good idea, not that someone has explicitly sought written permission in advance. Even policies and guidelines may be boldly improved.

Nabla, there's a difference between "a special linking template" like {{Facebook}} and a "large graphical template" like {{Commons}}. The community does not permit the second type for any website that is not run by the WMF. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:44, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I have started a conversation at WT:EL about the sentence that Kozuch (creator of the disputed template) deleted. Moxy, rather than deleting the template (for which I expect a consensus to be easily found), I'd prefer to see it turned into an acceptable format that doesn't call so much attention to the website, like the {{Facebook}} template. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:08, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Several articles today

Seohunter (talk · contribs · count) added several links to a site today that seems to fail WP:ELNO #4/#10. I'm inclined to mass-undo them, but think that getting a second opinion first would be prudent. Thanks. Haus^Talk 00:51, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

I removed all the additions except at International Code of Signals where the external link seemed (in a very quick review) to add a rather better summary of the flags. However, it is likely that the same information is available at lots of places, and there are probably too many links at that page anyway. Many of the added external links were an unhelpful list of things, much as in a phone directory, and it is not Wikipedia's role to link to such pages. Johnuniq (talk) 08:33, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for looking into it! Haus^Talk 08:38, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

I reverted one on Deck (ship) as a bit spammy, while unaware of this conversation. --Old Moonraker (talk) 11:34, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

The contributor acknowledges that "I work as an Search engine optimiser" on his user page. I respect his candour. --Old Moonraker (talk) 12:17, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia:External links and Wikipedia:Ignore all rules

I'm in a discussion over at Talk:Circular_buffer#Java_Implementation where a site owner (to his credit he admitted COI up front) seems to be convinced that if his link is 'useful', that he can apply Wikipedia:Ignore all rules and list the link himself regardless of what Wikipedia:External links might say. Is that right? More voices on the subject would be very much appreciated, either here or over on that talk page. - MrOllie (talk) 14:57, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I am the offender :) Will someone familiar with Java and C please come over? --Tennenrishin (talk) 16:41, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I have no opinion on the link in question. However, having briefly glanced over the conversation, I'd like to say that one argument Tennerishin has put forward is that the link is "helpful", which has been batted aside. The EL guideline would technically support such a claim under its requirement for all links to be justifiable according to common sense (as well as according to the guideline). However, merely being able to put forward a single reason in its favor does not mean that the link should be included, and how helpful it might be is something I'm not qualified to comment on.

I'd like to congratulate all sides on complying with WP:ELBURDEN by refusing to WP:Edit war over it during the discussion. Thank you. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:16, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! Unfortunately, the discussion is a long read, but for the benefit of newcomers, I have summarized my arguments below the 3rd "indentation reset thingy". As far as I can see, none of them have been addressed or acknowledged, so far. --Tennenrishin (talk) 20:02, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

You don't get to keep arguing this until you get your way. Wikipedia is not a democracy or a court of law. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 15:10, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Tennenrishin, discussions about external links don't operate under formal Lincoln–Douglas debate rules. No one is required to address or acknowledge any of your points. If you want the link included, you have to convince them (not yourself) that their objections are invalid or unimportant. Your goal needs to be winning friends and influencing people, not failing to listen to them or complaining that they haven't listened to you. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:17, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for the advice. I will try to take it. (gulp) --Tennenrishin (talk) 16:50, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Onislam.net

We have an editor adding a lot of links to this website. Some are news articles being added as ELs, which seems inappropriate, others are like this one: [1]. Comments? Dougweller (talk) 08:12, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

News articles are best used as sources (if they are reliable), and they normally shouldn't be used in external links sections unless they are cover sufficient material that we can't host in our articles. I can't tell how appropriate these particular links are since I don't know what articles they are being linked from. Could you post the user's contribution history? ThemFromSpace 16:28, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

College and university yearbook archives

(I think we've dealt with something similar in the recent past but I can't recall when or where...) An editor is adding links to a website with archives of yearbooks to college and university articles and I'd like a few opinions on whether these links are appropriate. I don't think they're terribly good links and I'm a bit turned off by the way they're being mass-added without discussion but others may feel differently so please weigh in. ElKevbo (talk) 02:44, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Yearbooks might be a suitable addition to external links sections. I don't think there's anything in our EL guidelines that prohibit them. This being said, the EL in question is hard to use (at least for me), due to the huge pagefiles that have to load. Are there any other sites that host yearbook scans that are easier to navigate? ThemFromSpace 16:23, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

This editor is probably related to User:Akadonnew, who was a SPA who added links to this same site (at it's previous URL, evendon.com). - MrOllie (talk) 16:26, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Links to sites that require payment or registration

Username AJonwiki or FTonwiki (I do not know if that is the same user) constantly create links to website that require registration or payment. I noticed this when an article to The Banker magazine has been constantly linked by AJonwiki or FTonwiki, although it requires users to register on the website or even pay to read the content. This is against the Wikipedia external links policy.

Although The Banker is a respected magazine belonging to the FT Group (Financial Times), I think that the user shall not create links for the sake of creating links to the FT Group articles which require registration or subscription. In case that this username is run by paid employees of the FT Group to redirect attention of Wikipedia users to articles written by the FT Group (which are not for free or require registration), then this shall be seriously assesed in my view.

Could administrators please review the contribution of FTonwiki and AJonwiki in this regard. See the history of the Basel III article as an example. I am not a registered users, thus, I am writting my observation at this noticeboard for the attention of more experienced users. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.41.129.27 (talk) 15:04, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Tag for incorporating external links as inline citations

I'd like to tag an "External links" section suggesting that items be incorporated into the article, as inline citations. I think I remember seeing such a tag before -- or am I dreaming? It might have been in a related section, such as "See also" or "References". Thanks. 128.138.43.231 (talk) 05:50, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Ruling On Justifiable Deletion, Please?

Long story short -- I did a search for Wiki pages on primitive fishes and endangered species. I found several Wiki resources, including pages on alligator gar, paddlefish, and sturgeon, and started reviewing them for accuracy. The information provided was pretty basic, lacked validation in some areas, and had only a few external links. Some of the external links didn't work, or the pages had limited information, etc., so I added an external link from Wiki's sturgeon page to Earthwave Society's sturgeon page in an effort to enhance the Wiki resource. I serve as Exec. Director of Earthwave Society (EWS), and had authority to do so. I did the same for the Wiki gar page, and paddlefish page by adding external links to corresponding species pages at the EWS website. Over the years, EWS has accumulated valuable information and rare footage on some of the primitive fishes. I produced several of the first video documentaries ever produced on gar, the 7 North American species of sturgeon, and the paddlefish. PBS initially aired several of the primitive species documentaries, and received excellent ratings. We also allowed the public to come in and view the documentaries at our Texas location. Of course, not everyone can travel to Texas to watch the programs, so we made them available at the EWS website for a small donation which includes the cost of duplication, shipping & handling. There are also several reviews and testimonials at the EWS website from students, teachers, and researchers who appreciate the excellent resources at the EWS website.

So why were the external links deleted by Wiki editors? The responses I received including the following comments: "unnecessary link", "spam", "purely promotional", and "only there to sell product". Of course none of their reasons are valid, and here's why.....

Wiki Guidelines specifically state in the External Link section under Advertising and conflicts of interest Shortcuts: WP:ADV WP:EL#ADV Main pages: ....

Wikipedia:Conflict of interest and Wikipedia:Spam It is true that a link from Wikipedia to an external site may drive Web traffic to that site. But in line with Wikipedia policies, you should avoid linking to a site that you own, maintain, or represent—even if WP guidelines seem to imply that it may otherwise be linked. When in doubt, you may go to the talk page and let another editor decide. This suggestion is in line with WP's conflict-of-interest guidelines. Wikipedia uses the same standards for evaluating links to websites owned by for-profit and (real or purported) non-profit organizations. Links to potentially revenue-generating web pages are not prohibited, even though the website owner might earn money through advertisements, sales, or (in the case of non-profit organizations) donations. Choose which pages to link based on the immediate benefit to Wikipedia readers that click on the link, not based on the organization's tax status or your guess at whether the website's owner might earn money from the link.

(snip) (1) Earthwave Society neither created the Wiki pages in question, nor are they connected to the developers of those pages. - justification (2) Wiki Guidelines clearly allows for links to non-profits who solicit donations, and/or sites that earn money through sales, etc. - justification (3) A link to Earthwave's website provides immediate benefit to Wiki readers who click on the link - Wiki's Alligator Gar page to Earthwave's Alligator Gar page, etc. - justification (4) Earthwave's website also makes available important educational material (DVDs) which includes rare footage and documentation that isn't available anywhere else. - justification

I anxiously look forward to the general consensus in hopes it will resolve this issue once and for all. Atsme (talk) 07:20, 13 September 2011 (UTC)Atsme

• The links I saw had nothing to do with the articles. For instance, on the Alligator Gar page she provided a link to her personal site with nothing about Alligator Gars on it...Smarkflea (talk) 16:52, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Smarkflea's comment is incorrect. I'm not sure why he focused on that one link - it was a simple announcement that linked to a photographic resource which is perfectly acceptable per Wiki guidelines. It is not the job of Wiki editors to judge every link on a 3rd party site. Below the announcement which included the photography link is a link to the organization's current projects which leads to the alligator gar page. That page includes important information with rare photographs. In fact, almost all of the pages, including the index page have important conservation messages, all of which are important to alligator gar. Please review the site in its entirety before you pass judgement. Too many Wiki editors are "trigger happy", and are not taking the time necessary to analyze the benefits of external links as an important RESOURCE for Wiki readers. They tend to become fixated on criticism, and have even manufactured reasons for not including them rather than being open minded enough to realize the benefits. I did make a suggestion to the organization to reword the photo link on the index page as a result of Smarkflea's comment, even though it wasn't required. Also, please keep in mind the link I added originally was to www.earthwave.org/gar.htm, and it was deleted by a prior editor, so I tried to accommodate that editor by linking to the index.html page. That didn't satisfy him either. Again, both links are acceptable resources according to the Wiki Guidelines I recited above, and they do provide immediate benefit to Wiki readers.

• The link on the Crayfish page seemed like an ad to me. [2] There is nothing on the page linked to, http://www.earthwave.org/crayfish.htm that isn't just advertising a product. After edit warring a bit, a link was added just to their main page and not the crayfish page itself. The link on the Paddlefish page links to a similar ad. "These educational video documentaries are being distributed by Earthwave Society Inc., a non-profit organization dedicated to conservation through information and education. Your contribution covers the cost of duplication, video packaging, shipping and handling." They charge $24.95 though, so I don't think it goes to the cost of duplication, and they add to that price for shipping and handling if you try to buy something. Does the poster of these links get a large percentage of the money from sales, or a high salary and possible bonuses? Dream Focus 20:46, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

In response to Dream Focus' comment, I repeat, Wikipedia's External Link Policy clearly states, and I quote: "Links to potentially revenue-generating web pages are NOT prohibited, even though the website owner might earn money through advertisements, sales, or (in the case of non-profit organizations) donations". Unfortunately, that particular guideline is what this particular little group of Wiki editors seemed to overlook. Also, there are many other pages at the Earthwave Society website that include important information regarding the environment and conservation for Wiki readers, and considering crayfish are a keystone species which are important to riverine environments, the entire Earthwave Society site is an important resource. The link provides immediate benefit to Wiki readers because it provides information on how to obtain a valuable and important resource for a small donation. It doesn't matter what the organization charges, or that they charge at all because earning money through sales is a perfectly acceptable practice according to Wiki Guidelines. With regards to the page being a valuable resource to education, please read the following excerpt which is an unsolicited email from a teacher. It is located on the same page with the ordering information....

From: Gayle XXXX, 4th Grade Teacher Date: January 29, 2011 6:36:42 PM CST Subject: Re: America's Crayfish
I just received my DVD of America's Crayfish/Crawling In Troubled Waters. It is very nicely done and I think my 4th graders will really enjoy it. In the spring, we study the FOSS science unit: Structures of Life (bean sprouts and then crayfish). This is really a highlight of the year and kids do get very attached to "their" crayfish. I usually buy some Cajun Crayfish (pre-cooked) from a grocery store so they can taste them at the end of the unit. (Teachers freeze them at the end of the unit, or the custodian takes them home and eats them ;) We do have crayfish in the streams here in eastern Washington state, and sometimes kids catch them and bring them in to compare with the ones we buy from a distributor in the south. I will recommend this DVD to other teachers in the district because I think the information is really interesting for kids and easy to understand. Thank you.

Atsme (talk) 22:28, 13 September 2011 (UTC)Atsme

• The link is not perfectly acceptable as it is not direct. Some of the other links, including the crayfish one, have no real educational content. They are just meant to sell DVD's, which may be educational, but do not provide valid links as they have no real information on the page...Smarkflea (talk) 23:15, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
  • Strongly agree that link is not appropriate, as it's largely an advertisement. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 23:23, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
• Sorry, but Wikipedia is not available to promote noble causes. The fact that this issue is being discussed strenuously in several locations is a demonstration that a COI issue is involved. The links that I checked do not satisfy WP:ELYES as there is no useful information at the linked page (useful = help reader to understand topic). External links are not a means to show every available source of information on the topic. Johnuniq (talk) 02:08, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Ok -- then I respectfully request that you explain why the following pages and links are acceptable, yet the Earthwave Society pages are not: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Monsters (they sell videos/DVDs, and it is a PAID channel not free to the public as is PBS which is where Earthwave Society's programs aired) links - http://animal.discovery.com/tv/river-monsters/ (complete with commercial advertising - Earthwave Society's site does not have any commercials, and it asks only for contributions, not sales) I'm very interested in the responses.... Atsme (talk) 02:52, 14 September 2011 (UTC)Atsme

• River Monsters has a page because it is a notable television show. You're missing the point. The point is your links don't add anything to the articles...Smarkflea (talk) 03:00, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Unbelievable. "River Monsters" is televised on a PAID network. It is not available to the public for free, and they sell their episodes on DVD for profit. "Alligator Gar: Predator Or Prey" was a notable television program that aired on PBS which is FREE to the public. It was the #1 rated program in primetime during the July sweeps. Earthwave Society is a non-profit educational entity, and offers DVDs to the public in exchange for a donation to cover expenses. So who is missing the point? Atsme (talk) 03:47, 14 September 2011 (UTC)Atsme

• Again, River Monsters has a page because it is a notable television show. Whether your organization is free or not is not the point. Your links don't add anything to the articles and are basically for distributing product...Smarkflea (talk) 04:06, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Again...Earthwave Society's website adds A LOT to the articles - example....Alligator Gar....
Following is an excerpt from the Alligator Gar page at Earthwave Society which includes information that is not available on the Wiki page, including access to an IN-DEPTH DVD on the life history cycle of the species....
The rod and reel world record alligator gar weighed 290 lbs, and the trot line, or unrestricted division record weighed 302 lb. Both were caught in the Rio Grande River back in the 1950s, and measured a little over 7-1/2 ft in length. Alligator gars are widely sought after by bowhunters, but a much smaller following of anglers fish for them for sport. The states of Texas and Louisiana permit regulated commercial fishing for alligator gars, however, the demand is nominal. The hard, ganoid scales on alligator gars protect them like a suit of armor. Some Native American Indians used the scales as arrowheads, and for adornment on their tribal dress. Although rare, ganoid scales are still being used as jewelry today. Many researchers see gars as a link between the scientific research of today and what has evolved from a primitive past. Gars can breathe both air and water, which is one of the reasons they are still around today. Unfortunately, we cannot be as optimistic about their future.
Atsme (talk) 04:11, 14 September 2011 (UTC)Atsme

One more note -- Earthwave Society was the first in history - again, FIRST in history to video document the life history cycle of alligator gar, and the FIRST in history to produce a television documentary on alligaor gar which set the stage, or pioneered, if you will, much of the research that is being conducted today. If you dig deeper, you will most likely find that some of the information contained on the Wiki page was made available to those researchers as a result of the research and documentation performed by Earthwave Society back in 1992. Thank you.

Atsme (talk) 04:19, 14 September 2011 (UTC)Atsme

That's great, but there is still an obvious WP:COI issue, as well as advertising issue here. As with many similar arguments, this is a "site owner" vs. "community consensus" issue. The latter prevails. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 04:40, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Looks like a mixed bag. The Crayfish link has essentially zero information beyond "buy our video". The Alligator Gar link, though, has a couple paragraphs of reasonably OK text. The link at Sturgeon is just to the organization's main page; all I could find out about sturgeons after drilling down was "buy our video". The Paddlefish has a little info, as a byproduct of describing the video (buy it!) rather than discussing paddlefish per se. All in all the ratio of useful information to "add to cart" buttons is pretty darn low. Atsme, I'd let it go. Spend the energy on getting a decent web design going instead, or something. Herostratus (talk) 05:50, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

I think the biggest problem plaguing this issue is that the editors who are debating the validity of the external link are failing to grasp the concept of what purpose an external link actually serves. There are hundreds, no thousands of external links on Wiki pages to websites that sell product, are self-promotional, and/or connected directly to the Wiki page -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Monsters (independent producer, and they sell videos/DVDs, and their program airs on PAID SUBSCRIPTION channel not free to the public as is PBS which is where Earthwave Society's programs aired) and that page includes an external link to the PAID CHANNEL @ http://animal.discovery.com/tv/river-monsters/ (complete with commercial advertising - Earthwave Society's site does not have any commercials, and it asks only for contributions, not sales). THERE IS NOTHING INFORMATIONAL ON EITHER THE MAIN WIKI PAGE, OR THE EXTERNAL LINK. Please keep in mind, Wiki editors do not have jurisdiction over the websites connected to the external links. Your jurisdiction is limited to whether or not the link provides a resource that benefits the Wiki reader, regardless of whether that resource happens to be a book, a video, a DVD, a manuscript, an iTunes App, etc. The Wiki page is where the written information is supposed to be, and the information should be validated, and complete with references, etc. The external links are there to provide additional resources for Wiki readers, regardless of whether or not there is a charge for those resources at the 3rd party site. The latter is stated very clearly in the Wiki Guidelines for external links. The editors who have replied to my posts really need to get a grasp on this aspect of external links. I will again quote from the Wiki Guidelines in all caps to make my point: LINKS TO POTENTIALLY REVENUE-GENERATING WEB PAGES ARE NOT PROHIBITED, EVEN THOUGH THE WEBSITE OWNER MIGHT EARN MONEY THROUGH ADVERTISEMENTS, SALES, OR (IN THE CASE OF NON-PROFIT ORGANIZATIONS) DONATIONS. I have tried my best to help you understand, but it appears I am beating a dead horse. You can't squeeze blood out of a turnip, so I'm taking this issue further up the ladder, right to the top. It truly is sad that a viable resource is being stifled because a handful of volunteer editors are unable to grasp the concept of what is, and isn't acceptable even when the Guidelines are staring them in the face. I will leave you with one thought -- let's say you're a college student, and you've been assigned to do a thesis on the seven North American species of sturgeon. You Google it, find a link to a Wiki page. You visit that page, and read what's there. You scroll down to the links. You see Earthwave Society's link. You visit that site. You see there is a one-hour documentary available on DVD which maps out the entire life history cycle on all seven species. Would you consider that a valuable resource??? Have a good night. Atsme (talk) 06:35, 14 September 2011 (UTC)Atsme Atsme, there are several points here. First there is the conflict of interest, though that certainly does not prohibit or forbid you to add information/links yourself. It is however strongly advised to bring it to talkpages, and let other editors without a conflict of interest add the links for you, when there is consensus to insert it. Now for the links itself. You should note, that Wikipedia is foremost an encyclopedia. We rely on info, not on external links. We do not add external links because they are about the subject, we do not add external links because they exist, whatever. External links do need to pass a certain merit of inclusion. In basis "Some external links are welcome ..., but it is not Wikipedia's purpose to include a lengthy or comprehensive list of external links related to each topic. No page should be linked from a Wikipedia article unless its inclusion is justifiable according to this guideline and common sense. The burden of providing this justification is on the person who wants to include an external link." We are not a linkfarm, we are not an internet directory (what this is based on is the parts of the 'What wikipedia is not' policy - WP:NOT#LINKFARM, WP:NOT#DIRECTORY). That a page linked to is commercial in nature, or even primarily for making money - in the end that is true for practically every site out there, they all make money in some way for some reason. The threshold is whether the information on the external page is adding to the page, "All external links must conform to certain formatting restrictions. Some acceptable links include those that contain further research that is accurate and on-topic, information that could not be added to the article for reasons such as copyright or amount of detail, or other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article for reasons unrelated to its accuracy.". You above take the example:

The rod and reel world record alligator gar weighed 290 lbs, and the trot line, or unrestricted division record weighed 302 lb. Both were caught in the Rio Grande River back in the 1950s, and measured a little over 7-1/2 ft in length.

Alligator gars are widely sought after by bowhunters, but a much smaller following of anglers fish for them for sport. The states of Texas and Louisiana permit regulated commercial fishing for alligator gars, however, the demand is nominal.

The hard, ganoid scales on alligator gars protect them like a suit of armor. Some Native American Indians used the scales as arrowheads, and for adornment on their tribal dress. Although rare, ganoid scales are still being used as jewelry today.

Many researchers see gars as a link between the scientific research of today and what has evolved from a primitive past. Gars can breathe both air and water, which is one of the reasons they are still around today. Unfortunately, we cannot be as optimistic about their future.

That is either already in the article (some of it is even reliably referenced!), or could easily be included. I am sorry, but that information you provide does not add anything to the article itself. There is no need to link to it. Not saying anything about the seriousness of your site, anyone could write a page on alligator gar and add it as an external link to Alligator gar, but as stated above, that is not the purpose of Wikipedia.

Regarding the other (commercial) links on the page that are already there - first of all they are likely inserted by editors who do not have a conflict of interest with the specific link, and secondly they saw, maybe at the time of insertion, that the page did give information which was not included or maybe could not be included. But even if neither was true at that point or now, it may be that the other link also does not belong on the page - it is by no means a reason to add yours as well. That type of reasoning is on the way to WP:SPAMHOLE via WP:OTHERLINKS-arguments.

All in all, as I see that you are not going to take no for an answer from all those who have concerns (however experienced they are, however they first encountered the situation), and think that escalating the situation will help, I would first suggest that you make contact with a suitable WikiProject. WikiProjects group editors with similar interests and knowledge. You can find a list via Wikipedia:WikiProject. They may be very interested in your site, and they may be able to use it to expand our articles. Similarly, you can do that yourself. You could even rewrite parts of articles yourself (the last sentence of the lede on Alligator gar could certainly be expanded based on your knowledge, and is also then in dire need of a proper reference - see the reliable sources guideline and the verifiability policy for more info on those). There may even be pages where your link would be a suitable external link (though the cases where you added it now are all questionable per above reasons).

The external links guideline is written by many editors, and it outlines pretty well what external links serve for. But I do think that you should first understand, that external links are not the goal of Wikipedia. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 07:50, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

christianmusiccentral.wikispot.org

From what I see, it's a small, closed group of editors and mostly one editor is working on the wiki. It appears that the information presented is accurate and a is collection of links. User:RichLindvall, the primary editor of the wiki in question, is suggesting that his information is a valuable addition to wikipedia articles. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:09, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

LinkSearch results

This is one of those awkward cases regarding a good faith editor and entertainment articles. However, these external links generally appear unhelpful to the article as required by WP:EL (the few I looked at did not add useful information that should not be incorporated into the article), and while the wiki is not exactly "open", WP:ELNO#12 (Links to open wikis, except those with a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors) clearly applies. Finally, there appears to be a COI issue, and there would need to be a discussion from disinterested editors to support the inclusion of a link (if the link satisfied WP:ELYES). Johnuniq (talk) 02:00, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

If by COI you mean the person who is adding the links is the primary editor of that wiki, then I see what you mean. If by COI with the subjects, I'm a bit lost. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:47, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Jason Raize external link

A link to my website at http://www.jasonraize.net was flagged as a "fan site" and removed from the Wikipedia article for Jason Raize (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Raize), an actor/singer and a Goodwill Ambassador for the United Nations Environment Programme who died in 2004. This site is a comprehensive resource with over 140 pages of detailed information - directly from press releases, press clippings, interviews, and other credited sources - about Jason's projects in theater, film, music, and goodwill work. I am not competing with other sites for traffic: Jason's official website is inactive, and searching for "Jason Raize" on major search engines primarily yields articles about his death. I only seek to provide people with a source for more information about the late actor's life and career beyond the basic summary included on his Wikipedia page.

All data on my site comes from the same sources cited on Jason's Wikipedia page. In fact, the person who first posted Jason's biography to Wikipedia in 2006 took it verbatim from an earlier version of my website (see http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jason_Raize&diff=449256529&oldid=58712831 and http://web.archive.org/web/20060105014937/http://locket.net/raize/biography.html) without my knowledge or consent; while this person originally credited my site, this line was quickly removed. I've since added citations for data in Jason's Wikipedia biography to demonstrate accuracy, with most references citing specific published articles; as Wikipedia still requests improved citations, I will take time to update references that currently cite my site's summary pages to now cite my original sources.

I hope that you will consider allowing me to re-post http://www.jasonraize.net as an external link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Raize so that readers are aware of the only active site dedicated to Jason Raize's life and career. Thank you for reviewing this request. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raizeresource (talk • contribs) 02:51, 14 September 2011 (UTC)