Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard

"WP:DRN" redirects here. For the "Deny Recognition" essay, see WP:DNR.

Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN)

This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Wikipedia policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. This may also apply to some groups. Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN. Do you need assistance? Would you like to help? Request dispute resolution If we can't help you, a volunteer will point you in the right direction. Discussions should be civil, calm, concise, neutral, objective and as nice as possible. This noticeboard is for content disputes only. Comment on the contributions, not the contributors. Off-topic or uncivil behavior may garner a warning, improper material may be struck-out, collapsed, or deleted, and a participant could be asked to step back from the discussion. We cannot accept disputes that are already under discussion at other content or conduct dispute resolution forums or in decision-making processes such as Requests for comments, Articles for deletion, or Requested moves. The dispute must have been recently discussed extensively on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to be eligible for help at DRN. The discussion should have been on the article talk page. Discussion on a user talk page is useful but not sufficient, because the article talk page may be watched by other editors who may be able to comment. Discussion normally should have taken at least two days, with more than one post by each editor. Ensure that you deliver a notice to each person you add to the case filing by leaving a notice on their user talk page. DRN has a notice template you can post to their user talk page by using the code shown here: {{subst:drn-notice}}. Be sure to sign and date each notice with four tildes (~~~~). Giving notice on the article talk page in dispute or relying on linking their names here will not suffice. Do not add your own formatting in the conversation. Let the moderators (DRN Volunteers) handle the formatting of the discussion as they may not be ready for the next session. Follow moderator instructions There will be times when the moderator may issue an instruction. It is expected of you to follow their instruction and you can always ask the volunteer on their talk page for clarification, if not already provided. Examples are about civility, don't bite the newcomers, etc. If you need help: If you need a helping hand just ask a volunteer, who will assist you. This is not a court with judges or arbitrators that issue binding decisions: we focus on resolving disputes through consensus, compromise, and advice about policy. For general questions relating to the dispute resolution process, please see our FAQ page. Become a volunteer We are always looking for new volunteers and everyone is welcome. Click the volunteer button above to join us, and read over the volunteer guide to learn how to get started. Being a volunteer on this page is not formal in any respect, and it is not necessary to have any previous dispute resolution experience. However, having a calm and patient demeanor and a good knowledge of Wikipedia policies and guidelines is very important. It's not mandatory to list yourself as a volunteer to help here, anyone is welcome to provide input. Volunteers should remember: Volunteers should gently and politely help the participant fix problems. Suggest alternative venues if needed. Try to be nice and engage the participants. Volunteers do not have any special powers, privileges, or authority in DRN or in Wikipedia, except as noted here. Volunteers who have had past dealings with the article, subject matter, or with the editors involved in a dispute which would bias their response must not act as a volunteer on that dispute. If any editor objects to a volunteer's participation in a dispute, the volunteer must either withdraw or take the objection to the DRN talk page to let the community comment upon whether or not the volunteer should continue in that dispute. Listed volunteers open a case by signing a comment in the new filing. When closing a dispute, please mark it as "closed" in the status template (see the volunteer guide for more information), remove the entire line about 'donotarchive' so that the bot will archive it after 48 hours with no other edits. Open/close quick reference To open, replace {{DR case status}} with {{DR case status|open}} To close, replace the "open" with "resolved", "failed", or "closed". Add {{DRN archive top|reason=(reason here) ~~~~}} beneath the case status template, and add {{DRN archive bottom}} at the bottom of the case. Remember to remove the DoNotArchive bit line (the entire line).

Case		Created		Last volunteer edit		Last modified
Title	Status	User	Time	User	Time	User	Time
Nivkh alphabets	In Progress	Modun (t)	24 days, 22 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	3 days, 4 hours	Modun (t)	1 days, 5 hours
Wudu	In Progress	Nasserb786 (t)	16 days, 7 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	3 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	3 hours
15.ai	In Progress	Ltbdl (t)	6 days, 4 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	3 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	3 hours
Hypnosis	Closed	Skalidrisalba (t)	5 days, 1 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	47 minutes	Robert McClenon (t)	47 minutes
Talk:Karima Gouit	Closed	TahaKahi (t)	3 days, 6 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	2 days, 14 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	2 days, 14 hours
Asian fetish	Closed	ShinyAlbatross (t)	3 days,	Robert McClenon (t)	2 days, 20 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	2 days, 20 hours
Algeria	New	Monsieur Patillo (t)	2 days, 6 hours	None	n/a	Monsieur Patillo (t)	1 days, 10 hours
2024 Bangladesh anti-Hindu violence	Closed	AmitKumarDatta180 (t)	2 days, 2 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	2 days,	Robert McClenon (t)	2 days,
Tuner (radio)	New	Andrevan (t)	1 days, 23 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	22 minutes	Robert McClenon (t)	22 minutes

If you would like a regularly-updated copy of this status box on your user page or talk page, put {{DRN case status}} on your page. Click on that link for more options.
Last updated by FireflyBot (talk) at 19:46, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Current disputes

Talk:Suicide of Amanda Todd#Hanged vs. found dead

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Tutelary on 19:40, 28 May 2014 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Suicide of Amanda Todd#Hanged vs .27found dead.27 (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Tutelary (talk · contribs)
• Baseball Bugs (talk · contribs)
• OttawaAC (talk · contribs)
• Tarc (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

On May 25th, I reverted an edit that removed some mention of the hanging that had been reported on by media sources. The person who had removed it had done in response to the concern [the reference desk,] where someone apparently close to Amanda Todd's family had averred that the hanging was false, having requested that the article be edited to reflect this. I have made contested (edits that were later reverted) edits, and that changed the wording back to reportedly found hanged that was changed to found dead. In the user's edit summary, OttawaAC cited a suggestion for me to cite sources that said reportedly hanged in the article. I did such, and was reverted by an account which previously had no dealing in the dispute nor any messages prior or after. As I was at three reverts, I ceased editing the page. After a heated discussion on the talk page, (and at the reference desk) there is some confusion on whether the sources that are cited on the talk page are reliable enough to indicate the word change, and as well as indicate the probable responsibility to label it on other sections as well. (IE: Cause of death as "Suicide" or "Suicide by hanging".)

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have discussed it thoroughly on the talk, with uninvolved users on an IRC channel, asking them for advice on what to do. I have discussed it on the reference desk contesting the idea to omit the material. I have asked the advice of another editor who had been kind to me before. That can be seen here; https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Obiwankenobi&oldid=610426225 (Note that he's not personally involved, and I didn't want him to be, so I didn't list him.)

How do you think we can help?

• Determine whether the sources that are cited for the hanging remark are reliable enough or whether there is a probable cause of WP:DUE concerns.
• Determine the necessary importance of indicating the reported cause of death in other aspects. (IE: Cause of death)
• If not resolved here, direct us to a more specific and direct approach.

Summary of dispute by Baseball Bugs

It's important to get it right, and the evidence for the suicide victim allegedly hanging herself is insufficient. While the victim is not a living person and hence BLP doesn't apply to her, her relatives are, and until or if we have rock-solid, widespread reporting of a specific cause of death, we shouldn't be giving artificial notability to such a claim. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:11, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

• Just a comment to mention that BLP does indeed cover the recently deceased. Per WP:BDP:

The only exception would be for people who have recently died, in which case the policy can extend for an indeterminate period beyond the date of death - six months, one year, two years at the outside. Such extensions would apply particularly to contentious or questionable material about the dead that has implications for their living relatives and friends, such as in the case of a possible suicide or a particularly gruesome crime.

--Mark Miller (talk) 00:22, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by OttawaAC

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

I believe that if the article should be edited prudently and mention "hanging" as a possible cause of death, because there's been no official confirmation of the cause of death. The sources, some of which are generally reliable, are only reporting unconfirmed hearsay in the guise of factual information. They may have "verified" the hanging detail using insider sources speaking anonymously, but we don't know that, and they don't state how they may have tried to verify the information, or if they even attempted it at all. Any sentence mentioning "hanging" is going to be giving undue weight to hearsay information if it isn't well qualified by balancing that information against the known facts of the case. Another thing I don't understand is how User:Tutelary is getting away with violating WP:OWN... articles are supposed to be edited collaboratively. The consensus is leaning heavily towards editing the article to qualify the statement about "hanging", and Tutelary is effectively blocking opposing edits any and all ways possible, including maxing out reverts, using accusations of personal attacks, and appeals to bureaucracy with this DR. That's my 2 cents'.OttawaAC (talk) 23:06, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Tarc

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

I only made a single comment in this, which I will repeat; Just write to reflect the reality of the sources, e.g. "Several sources report that the cause of death was hanging, but the police have yet to release the official cause of death to the public." Tarc (talk) 14:27, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Suicide of_Amanda_Todd#Hanged_vs_.27found_dead.27 discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Comment from uninvolved DRN volunteer: While User:Tutelary is correct in observing that a number of sources report that Amanda Todd hanged herself, it is worth noting that the overwhelming majority of the most reliable sources covering the story -- The New Yorker, The Guardian, CNN -- pointedly do not cite a cause of death. MarkBernstein (talk) 20:33, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

This discussion regarding whether or not to move forward with this case from an administrative perspective has been moved to the DRN talk page

Yet another comment from a DRN volunteer - There is an active ANI report on Baseball Bugs that touches on this dispute. I feel this should be closed for the time being.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:17, 29 May 2014 (UTC) I don't see it there. I think it's been archived. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:23, 29 May 2014 (UTC) Come to think of it, I don't think it was on ANI, it was on the Misc Ref Desk, a debate that started with a user complaining about the article saying it was hanging despite the cause of death no being released. After a while, the debate was closed on the ref desk and transferred to the more appropriate venue, i.e. the article talk page. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:28, 29 May 2014 (UTC) I am closing this because there is clearly an ANI discussion ongoing about Baseball Bugs, whether they are aware of it or not and it does indeed touch on this dispute, while not being actually about the dispute.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:38, 29 May 2014 (UTC) I have reopened it because the ANI is completely irrelevant and this dispute is still in need of resolution - unlike the rather silly ANI case, this actually affects content and potentially real people. Guy (Help!) 13:45, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Comment (not really involved in this, but have been following) - Another case of people trying to find "truth". We report on what sources say, not what is true. If there are reliable sources that claim hanging, while others leave out the exact cause of death, then say that. There is no need to choose between the two. For example, "Some media outlets reported that Amanda Todd hanged herself, while others did not specify the cause of death." We had the same issue on Jodie Foster regarding her sexuality. Remember, just because some sources did not include the cause of death does not mean it should not be included; it means they didn't include it for some reason (probably they could not independently verify it). EvergreenFir (talk) 17:37, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

MODERATOR NEEDED: Despite this case being auto-labeled as IN PROGRESS, it has no moderator. DRN volunteers please feel free to jump in and take this case. Thanks!-- — Keithbob • Talk • 20:45, 2 June 2014 (UTC) (DRN vounteer coordinator)

I am still looking to do this DRN, thanks. I also reverted the archiving of this discussion, as it is still an active dispute. Tutelary (talk) 21:40, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Archived again Unless there is an official declination response, please could this move forward? It has not in any regard. Tutelary (talk) 16:05, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi all, I'm the specialist that gets called in when DRN threads have gone on for far too long. I do not think I've interacted substantially with the subject area nor do I think I've interacted substantially with any of the disputants to the case. Before we go any further, do all disputants accept my credentials as being neutral and uninvolved in this dispute? Hasteur (talk) 12:35, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Your thoughts disputants (Tutelary—Baseball Bugs—OttawaAC—Tarc) Hasteur (talk) 13:39, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

I do.Tutelary (talk) 14:05, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't know you, but I'll take your word for it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:57, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Not much has changed since the last time, just say that while some sources report the specific cause of death, it has not been released officially. This shouldn't be this big of a deal. Tarc (talk) 13:51, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

OttawaAC Are you still engaged with this DRN? Dispute Resolution doesn't work unless all disputants are engaged in finding a solution. If you don't respond soon (48 hours) this request might have to be closed with no resolution. Hasteur (talk) 15:42, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

From what I can see all participants have been recently notified that there is now a moderator for this discussion and the case is in progress. Therefore I agree with Hasteur, it's time to either discuss the issue or move on. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 12:44, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Ok, it's been 48 hours since OttawaAC was specifically requested to provide feedback. No feedback has been forthcoming, Emails to OttawaAC have gone unanswered. I'm going to close this in 6 hours as "Not all participants are active, DRN cannot help if participants are active. Please discuss on the article talk page to establish a consensus" (Failed) at that time. Compelling arguments for why we should push forward when OttawaAC was a significant disputant may be presented, and will be considered prior to closing. Hasteur (talk) 18:38, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Skin Game (novel)

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by MjolnirPants on 03:14, 10 June 2014 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Skin Game (novel) (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• MjolnirPants (talk · contribs)
• TheRedPenOfDoom (talk · contribs)
• NeilN (talk · contribs)
• Ngebendi (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

My attempts at initiating a discussion have gone without fruit, and the other party merely continues to revert and repeat him or herself.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Discussion on the talk page, and on user pages.

How do you think we can help?

A third party stepping into the dispute might be the catalyst necessary to initiate a two-way dialogue.

Summary of dispute by TheRedPenOfDoom

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

MjolnirPants does not appear to understand WP:OR and wishes to include duplicative plot information (a "Plot points" section" in addition to a plot summary) in multiple articles to show that plot points are somehow connected across novels when there are no external sources that make such claims in general let alone every specific claim the user wants to include in the article. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 03:47, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Template:@Ngebendi To prevent policy-based clean up of one article purely for the sake of keeping the consistent with other articles, particularly when the other articles are not FA or even GA is to me a glaring example of Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds. The application in general would mean that we would NEVER be able to clean up any article because on the balance most articles dont comply with policy. You have to start clean up somewhere. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:12, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by NeilN

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

From WP:PRIMARY: "For example, an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source. Do not analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so." Describing the plot and then highlighting plot points and themes is analysis. Examples:

• The Denarians: Harry being forced to work with them is the main plot of the book.
• Family ties: Harry's relationship with his daughter Maggie appears to be growing.

These do not appear in the transcript used as a reference. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 14:32, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Ngebendi

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Mine is somewhat of a side issue - since a "Plot Point" section is/was present in the pages of fourteen books of the same series, there should/should not be one also in the 15th, for consistency. Don't particularly care about which.Ngebendi (talk) 15:50, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by MjolnirPants

As I have already explained on the talk page, the majority of information presented in the plot points section is not duplicated. TRPoD's assertion that I fail to grasp WP:OR is misplaced and fails to assume good faith, as I have already explained (and to anyone who owns a copy of the book, I can demonstrate) that the material is verifiable and does not require any synthesis.

With the specific points identified by NeilN, his assertion that the first point is not sourced in the citation is flatly wrong. The source explicitly verifies this claim. Regarding the second, NeilN is correct only in asserting that the material does not appear in the source cited, but that is a problem only with the citation. Should the citation be changed from the interview to the book, it would be well-sourced.

Finally, regarding NeilN's claim that identifying plot points and themes is OR: Nowhere in the plot points section is there any analysis of a theme of an individual book, or the series as a whole. It is the exception (not the rule) that plot points mentioned in these sections are previously described in the plot summary, and those can be dealt with individually. Finally, not only is there a precedent in all but one of the other books, but it is useful in that there is a plot which spans the entire series, specific points of which are addressed in specific books. This does not constitute synthesis because in each case, the book explicitly describes those points as either resolving or setting up a long-term plot question.

In summary, every single claim made by these two (NeilN only became involved at the last minute, and is the only one to engage in any appreciable level of discourse with me) is either demonstrably false or would result in a less useful article if accepted. I have presented a compromise by way of offering to reformat all of the plot point sections into prosaic subsections of the summary, but this offer has been completely ignored. With any luck, a neutral outsider will help resolve this issue by fostering a level of discussion that might result in the other side of this dispute developing a willingness to achieve a compromise. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 14:26, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Skin Game (novel) discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Hi. I am Lixxx235, and I will be the helper in this case. This is my first DRN case, so if you feel I'm too inexperienced, let me know for sure and I'll try to get another helper. Thanks, Lixxx235^{Got a complaint?} 13:58, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

@MjolnirPants:You don't seem to have written an actual summary about the dispute yet, unless your dispute is about user conduct, in which case DRN is not the right place. Once we get that summary, we can move to the next stage. Thanks, Lixxx235^{Got a complaint?} 14:04, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

@Lixxx235: I was in the process of writing one as you posted. I attempted to let the opposition be the first to voice their opinion in this case, as a matter of courtesy. My summary is above, and I apologize for its verbosity, but I couldn't be more concise without failing to address important details. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 14:26, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi Lixxx235, Thanks for stepping up to moderate a case at DRN. I'm sure you will do a fine job. As a veteran DRN volunteer I'll keep an eye on this case and will comment either here or on your talk page if I have a helpful suggestion. Also, you will find some helpful info here. Meantime, please forge ahead! and ping me if I can be of assistance. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 15:56, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

• Okay, thanks. Case status does not seem to be updating, so I'll be getting to that. Thanks, Lixxx235^{Got a complaint?} 03:21, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
• @MjolnirPants:@TheRedPenOfDoom:@NeilN:@Ngebendi:Okay, I have some idea of the dispute. Could you four reply with what each of you would feel would be your preferred outcome of this? Thanks, Lixxx235^{Got a complaint?} 03:28, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
• My desired outcome is that Skin Game and the other articles about the novels in the series comply with WP:OR - that any assertions , analysis and cross novel comparisons are supported by third party reliable sources making the claims and not Wikipedia editors. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 09:29, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
• For the articles to adhere to MOS:NOVEL. One section on plot, one (sourced) section on themes instead of "Plot" and "plot points". Incidentally Lixxx235, your pings won't work - you need to sign in the same edit you add pings. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 12:22, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
• My desired outcome is to avoid removing highly relevant plot information from the articles in the interest of satisfying TRPoD's demonstrable misunderstanding of OR. My offered compromise would address every concern expressed by all four involved parties. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 13:12, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
• Personally, I'd like to have some sort of summary of the important points of each book as they progress in the series, I do not particularly care what form this summary takes. Nor do I require it; the points made in favor and against the "Plot Point" section are a bit too convolute for me to grasp. What I do care about, however, is that, since there are fifteen books, and fifteen pages, a certain consistency among them is kept; this discussion seemed to be entirely focused on "Skin Game", and the two main participants more focused on expressing their respective positions than in keeping track of the whole picture. Ngebendi (talk) 17:15, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

For the record, I've offered compromises that would address your concern on the article's talk page and on TRPoD's talk page. In fact, keeping consistency among the articles was one of my objections to removing the section in the first place. Once this dispute is cleared up, I have every intention of going through each book's article and bringing them all to a consistent standard. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 18:29, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

• Sorry, I haven't been responding here. I shouldn't have taken this task because I have exams(I'm writing this in a 10-minute break between exams). Keithbob, mind if you take over? Thanks, Lixxx235^{Got a complaint?} 13:46, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi, I'm a regular volunteer here at DRN. I'm not sure that I want to "take" this dispute now than Lixxx235 has said that he can no longer handle it, but in considering whether or not to take it, I would like a clarification about something. @MjolnirPants:: You have on several occasions said that TRPOD is wrong or has a "demonstrable misunderstanding" about OR. Would you please demonstrate that misunderstanding? That is, would you please say why you believe that he is wrong? Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 14:06, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Absolutely. Let me preface by saying that I am sure that across the whole of the series, there will be a one or two items in the plot points sections that constitute WP:OR in some form (likely a quite debatable form, but nonetheless), but that is hardly true for the vast majority and I am quite willing to cut loose any specific plot points which do.

I pointed out in my initial post on this subject that the plot points are sourced in the books, portrayed in the book as being plot points, and where they are points regarding the overall plot of the series, they are described in the book in which they appear as being elements of a series of events which has been occurring over the time span of multiple books. For instance, a person who only read Changes would be informed that the war between the Red Court and the White Council has begun during a previous adventure of Harry's and was a sign of brewing troubles to come, in addition to having previous plot points related to this war summarized. The books are generally quite explicit in tying together these book-spanning events whenever they are mentioned.

Recently, NeilN highlighted one plot point from Skin Game, which was: "Family ties: Harry's relationship with his daughter Maggie appears to be growing." and identified it as analysis. When I responded that the novel explicitly describes Harry's relationship with his daughter growing, TRPoD responded that it is still analysis.

NeilN has also mentioned that the plot points describe themes in the books multiple times. I trust I do not need to provide contrasting definitions of the literary terms "theme" and "plot point" in order to demonstrate how this is incorrect, but I will if necessary.

My assertion stems from these exchanges: Even though I have been quite explicit about how these plot points are well-sourced and do not require any synthesis, TRPoD has maintained his or her assertion that they are still OR. Since we must assume good faith, I do not assert that TRPoD is trolling me or refusing to read my comments, but rather that TRPoD doesn't understand what OR is with respect to a novel.

As a final note, I should point out that I have offered to either move the plot points to the main article for the series, or to re-write them prosaically and move them to a subsection of the plot summary. Both of my offers at compromise have been flatly ignored, suggesting that any complaints TRPoD and NeilN have about the formatting are tangential. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 15:13, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

MP, you say "portrayed in the book as being plot points, and where they are points regarding the overall plot of the series, they are described in the book in which they appear." What do you mean by "portrayed" and "described" (and later "informed")? The meanings of those terms could range from "they happened in the story" to "they were expressly described in a plot points appendix." I think you're saying, or saying something very close to, the latter: in other words, you're saying that you could quote verbatim passages from the books where those plot points are set out in words which would not require an ordinary reader to engage in analysis or interpretation or contextualization to understand. Is that correct? Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 17:26, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

To be clear, I meant "They happened in the story," with respect to the fact that the vast majority of the plot points are descriptions of specific events, or summaries of events.

I'll give you an example, using one of the plot points quoted by NeilN above.

The Denarians: Harry being forced to work with them is the main plot of the book.

   A man of medium height and build rose from his chair. He was dressed in a black silk suit, a black shirt, and a worn grey tie. He had dark hair threaded with silver and dark eyes, and he moved with the coiled grace of a snake. There was a smile on his mouth, but not in his eyes as he faced me. "Well, well, well. Harry Dresden."
   "Nicodemus Archleone." I slurred into a Connery accent. "My cut hash improved your voish."

— Skin Game, page 15

*In the world of The Dresden Files, Nicodemus Archleone is the leader of the Denarians.

One could argue that this passage mentions Nicodemus, not the Denarians, or one could argue that it requires the reader to read another passages to arrive at the conclusion that he's working with them, but that would be an blatant example of wikilawyering. The passage which explicitly states that Harry must work with the Denarians refer to them and Nicodemus only by the use of pronouns. One could then argue (following NeilN's tactic) that this is still synth, as one must read another passage to learn who "they" are. It would be synthesis only in the most strict and unyielding definition of the term, of the sort specifically dissuaded by the popular and well-accepted essay Wikipedia:What SYNTH is not.MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 18:05, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Solar Roadways

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Wholesomegood on 21:37, 11 June 2014 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Solar Roadways#Cover the entire USA (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Wholesomegood (talk · contribs)
• Green_Cardamom (talk · contribs)
• Sbmeirow (talk · contribs)
• Dream_Focus (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I have spent a lot of time referencing the "cost" section of Solar Roadways, including articles from The Washington Post and CNN.[1] Sbmeirow and Dream Focus continue to delete this section repeatedly, only leaving information which is positive about the organization. They provide absolutely no sources outside of the company for their position. Why do I have to babysit my sourced contributions?

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have discussed it thoroughly on the talk. There are four sections devoted to this issue.

How do you think we can help?

• Determine whether the sources that are cited are reliable enough.
• If not resolved here, direct us to a more specific and direct approach.

Summary of dispute by Dream Focus

Wholesomegood discussed what he wanted in the article at Talk:Solar_Roadways#Source_from_Solar_Roadways_about_costs. Three other editors responded, all of which were against having it there. Consensus was clear. Please read all of that through to understand this issue before commenting. Dream Focus 22:06, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Sbmeirow

User:Wholesomegood is ignoring statements and lack of proof from the official "Solar Roadways" website to further his agenda. At http://solarroadways.com/clearingthefreakinair.shtml it says "Years ago, when we were working on our very first prototype, we estimated that if we could make our 12' x 12' panels for under $10K, then we could break even with asphalt. That was mere speculation and had no relevance to the cost of even our first prototype, let alone our second." Since this is an official statement, then it trumps the mistakes in other articles. All "area" statements based on 12x12 and "cost" based upon $10K should be removed from this article. Currently the official website doesn't state an official price, nor an official size, nor an official power output, nor any other official technical specifications. • Sbmeirow • Talk • 23:32, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

All statements about the number of miles or square feet of roads in the USA is irrelevant, including the cost to cover the same roads, because it falls under speculation and WP:Crystal Ball. --- Would it be ok to compute the cost to cover every desert on earth? How about about the cost to cover every square foot of the earth? --- Lets look at this differently: would it be ok to put something similar in an Apple iPhone 6 article, like: "There are 64 Million iPhone users and since we estimate the cost of each iPhone 6 to be $300, then it will cost $19.2 Billion to replace all of those phones. If every person on earth bought an iPhone 6, then it would cost $2.1 Trillion." --- Seriously, all of these types of "crystal ball" costs should not be included in any product article! • Sbmeirow • Talk • 03:42, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Green_Cardamom

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

The contested material is one of at least 8 "false claims" floating around the Internet about this company, as described here at the official company website. Wikipedia is not Snopes.com and if we have a lengthy section on this 1 false claim, the other 7 will follow. It's unbalanced. Just because there is bad information floating around the internet doesn't mean we need to echo it, turning the article into a battle zone and an extension of the disputes raging elsewhere on the net. At best these 8 false claims can be referenced as a group, using a sentence or two. -- GreenC 17:03, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

As a matter of procedure I don't know why we are having a DRN. No attempt was made at an RfC. If recommended by DRN I have no problem with an RFC as the next step. -- GreenC 17:20, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Solar Roadways discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

This case is now open for moderated discussion. I've placed a note on Green Cardamom's talk page about this DRN (as has another editor) so they may join in the discussion if they wish. I thank all participants for taking the time to engage in this dispute resolution process. The purpose of this forum is for the discussion of content only. We will not be discussing editor behavior and I ask participants to stick to the content issues and refrain from personalizing their comments. We are going to go step by step. Wholesomegood, please provide here in this thread the precise content and corresponding sources that are being disputed.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 14:07, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

I've placed a note on Wholesomegood's talk page inviting him/her to participate.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 13:34, 14 June 2014 (UTC) DRN volunteer coordinator

Thank you keithbob:

In 2010, Solar Roadways reported that it was aiming for each road 12 feet by 12 feet panel to cost around $10,000 and each mile would cost $4.4 million. At 2010 retail electricity prices the road would pay for itself in about 20 years.

In the FAQ section of Solar Roadways, Brusaw states: "I heard that you said it's going to cost $60 trillion dollars to outfit the U.S. road with Solar Roadways. Is that true?...No, it's absolutely not true. We are still in R & D, and we haven't even calculated the cost for our prototype. That will come next month [July, 2014] as we get our final report ready for our Phase II contract with the Federal Highway Administration. And even if we had those numbers available now they would have no relevance to the cost of our actual product...right now, not even we have that information, so if you read an article where a journalist claims to have any data on costs, you can be assured that they have not done their homework and are quoting another unreliable source or they are making up numbers." Solar Roadways estimates there are 31,250.86 square miles of roads, parking lots, driveways, playgrounds, bike paths, sidewalks, etc.

The media's total estimated costs for solar roadways to cover all United States roads varies widely. The Washington Post estimated there are roughly 29,000 square miles (800 billion square feet) of United States road surface to cover. Which means the United States will need roughly 5.6 billion panels to cover that area with a price tag of $56 trillion. The Economist reports that the installation costs of building such roadways and parking lots are expected to be 50 to 300 percent more expensive than regular roads. To cover all United States roads would cost at least $1 trillion. Alternatively, The American Thinker states that in 2009, the United States had a total public road length of 4,050,717 miles. Which means an estimated solar road infrastructure cost of $18 trillion, or about 125% of the United States' current annual gross domestic product.

--END--

Wholesomegood (talk) 02:37, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Mexico#RfC: What_weight_should_be_assigned_to_the_source_Lizcano_2005

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Aergas on 22:08, 12 June 2014 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Talk:Mexico#RfC: What weight should be assigned to the source Lizcano 2005 (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Aergas (talk · contribs) Maunus (talk · contribs) Tarlneustaedter (talk · contribs) Dispute overview Im having a discussion with Maunus about the adition of this material [2], shortly, the contested claim states (in the page 196 of the study) that since in Mexico ethnic classifications have a cultural base rather than a biological one, it is possible for white people (understood as european people that don't have ancestors of other race) to be considered mestizos if they identify with metizo culture, this statement is analogous to claims already included in the article regarding how, for example an Amerindian person can become mestizo if it accepts the mestizo culture and a white/mestizo person can become amerindian at the eyes of the government if it accepts amerindian culture, Maunus has no problem with these claims despite being the same principle. Through the discussion Maunus have opposed it using and changing claims, like that it is unproffesional, not notorious and that is fringe because no one cites it as reference. In turn I have defended it proving that the source it´s an academic peer reviewed work, it is featured in the "Latin American, Caribean, Spanish and Portuguese Scientific Publications Network and Scientific Information System" [3] and it has been cited by other scientific researchs [4]. However when Maunus ran out of arguments he started deleting the discussions from his talk page and became agressive [5], [6], [7], He is also reverting edits even though he have refused to discuss [8] Have you tried to resolve this previously? I've tried to discuss this on his talk page, but he removes any trace of the dicussions: [9], [10], [11], There is an RfC on the issue, but no third editor have shown. Only other editor involved in a previous discussion three days ago. How do you think we can help? By revising the issue in detail and giving third opinions on it (the more the better), maybe making Maunus recapacite about his obtuse posture and attitude in the last days. Summary of dispute by Maunus Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by Tarlneustaedter Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. I think the existing talk pages cover the dispute. This seems to be a continuation of the previous argument (and edit war) I had with Aergas, which was eventually resolved by asking for an impartial third opinion. This is pushing the same buttons, which sounds like an agenda-driven view of ethnic designations in Mexico. The changes (IMHO) don't improve the article. Personal animosity has also become a factor. Tarl.Neustaedter (talk) 22:46, 12 June 2014 (UTC) Talk:Mexico#RfC: What_weight_should_be_assigned_to_the_source_Lizcano_2005 discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.