Talk:Donald Trump

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Potential paragraph at end of lede on sex abuse allegations

Please vote/comment below so we can assess whether there is consensus for the charge. (The previous "tally" was done in a scattershot manner, and many of the comments took place before most of the women had come out.) For clarity's sake, let's first vote on whether there should be a paragraph:

Vote Include or Exclude. Then, if there is consensus for a paragraph, we can hold an RfC on the length/form of the paragraph. Steeletrap (talk) 19:30, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

• Include A no-brainer; this is the most covered issue in the campaign--both the Billy Bush audiotape and the 12 women who have publicly accused Trump--and all major RS have covered it. We go off of RS here on WP. Steeletrap (talk) 19:26, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

• Exclude I would be for inclusion of a sentence incorporated into existing paragraphs (as the article stands now.) I take issue with the argument that this is the "most covered issue" in the campaign. Firstly, this article is about the man, not his campaign. With almost 40 years of coverage this is by no means his most-covered issue. Secondly, even restricting the group to campaign issues, coverage of his comments regarding muslim immigration (which persisted for months) is greater in total. James J. Lambden (talk) 19:41, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Trump is best-known as the 2016 presidential candidate; and this is the most relevant/most covered issue of that campaign. It's the most notable part of the thing for which he is most-known. The stuff we currently have in the lede--e.g. the Muslim ban--s much less notable than the 12 women who have accused him of sexual assault. Steeletrap (talk) 19:46, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

• Include. Note that a clear majority have already supported the inclusion of the material in the lead in some form; the main issue is whether we should have 2–3 short sentences (as argued by half a dozen or so in the most recent discussion) or just one sentence (as argued by 2 users). For the reasons described in more detail above, I think this controversy is too big, has a too large impact, and is too complex to be covered adequately in a one-sentence passing mention at the end of a paragraph on other stuff. There is no doubt that Trump is best known for his presidential candidacy, and there is no doubt that his candidacy is dominated by the sexual misconduct controversy in reliable sources. Due to its importance and coverage in reliable sources, the controversy is extensively covered in Wikipedia, including in a first-level section in this article, and in 2 further in-depth sub articles, all of which clearly indicate that it should be summarised adequately in the lead section of the main article per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section. --Tataral (talk) 19:54, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

• Include as supported in earlier discussion. Trump's history of sexual assault extends back decades. It is not WP:RECENT and confined to his election campaign. The impact of Trump's 2005 tape in which he supports sexual assault on his current campaign - a major life mark - has been marked and negative (in terms of his poll standings). The argument that one sentence buried amongst other material in the lede reflects the body content is strained - there is a whole article devoted to this topic consisting of material spun off from this BLP. --Pete (talk) 20:06, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
• Objection. This is not how you do an RFC, and therefore "RFC" does not belong in the header. See WP:RFC. There is also a proper RFC on this subject already started below.Anythingyouwant (talk) 01:23, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
  • The competing "RFC" below is quite unhelpful and is certainly not any more proper than this RFC. --Tataral (talk) 02:00, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

The RFC below fully complies with WP:RFC.Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:07, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

The RfC below is redundant and poorly phrased. This one--the first one--should be resolved before proceeding to additional ones. Steeletrap (talk) 02:35, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

• Exclude - My comments copied from 11 October above: Would you have stuck Monica in Bill Clinton's lead a few days after the story broke? That scandal resulted in the impeachment of a president and threatened to force his resignation, and even today it gets two sentences and 57 words in the lead. Gary Hart, "the clear frontrunner for the Democratic nomination", was forced to drop out of the race when news of Donna Rice surfaced, and there is not one word in his lead. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:57, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
• Exclude a separate paragraph devoted exclusively to this subject. A sentence of 15 words or less, within a paragraph that also covers other matters would be more appropriate given that 15 words can describe a great deal, very concisely (see last paragraph of lead as it stands now). I'm not saying that I support or oppose anything about this in the lead yet, but definitely this subject does not warrant a separate dedicated paragraph.Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:16, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

• Exclude any mention in the lead for now. It's WP:RECENTISM and in the scope of his multi-decade biography, it's currently minor. Mandruss' assessment is correct. It's major for the campaign, but we need it to be more for the biography. If he loses and it's ascribed to this, if it leads to more charges, etc., then discuss inclusion. Until then, exclude. EvergreenFir (talk) 06:09, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
• Exclude for now, per Mandruss.LM2000 (talk) 09:04, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

• Include - I'm indifferent to whether this should be a separate paragraph or a couple of sentences in the campaign paragraph, but I have come to the realization that this is a significant series of events in Trump's life as well as his campaign and should be touched on in the lead. The content in the lead should cover Trump's Access Hollywood braggadocio, the ensuing flood of allegations, and the impact to his presidential campaign and the GOP.- MrX 20:08, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
• This is a quickly developing and a highly significant story. Yes, it should be included based on the coverage existing today.My very best wishes (talk) 03:01, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
• Exclude per Mandruss; however support including detailed section later in the article. MB298 (talk) 03:20, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
• Exclude for now. Revisit after election when this can be put into perspective. Include in lede of sub articles about election, ect. --Malerooster (talk) 12:43, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
• Folks, I'm sorry, but if you're saying "include in the text", you are also saying, whether you realize it or not, "include in the lead". The lead summarizes the text. It doesn't make sense - and it doesn't follow Wikipedia policy - to say "include in text but not in lead".Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:11, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
  • Indeed. Any topic with a first-level section devoted to it, and even an in-depth sub article, should be summarised in the lead, given its coverage in the article/Wikipedia. --Tataral (talk) 16:02, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
    • That's not a bad concept, but it's the first I've heard of it in 3.5 years and 30K edits. Is it mentioned in WP:LEAD? I don't see that. If not, it's an editorial opinion but not self-evident as you claim. There needs to be some demonstrable community consensus for that, or at least a local consensus here. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:10, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
• Include if shorter than 23 words; otherwise exclude per MOS:INTRO and WP:BALASPS. (See calculation above: 0.046 × 476 words = 22 words.) --Dervorguilla (talk) 07:46, 19 October 2016 (UTC) 04:49, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

  Sorry, numbers have been banned on this page. We are not allowed to quantify. ―Mandruss ☎ 11:29, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

• Exclude per MOS:INTRO and per WP:BALASP in relation to focusing on recent allegations. --Dervorguilla (talk) 04:49, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
• Include According to Wikipedia guidelines on the intro section, including this information is appropriate.

The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies.

Dig Deeper (talk) 01:40, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

• Include. It's who the man is.--Jorm (talk) 03:49, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

• Exclude. I agree with EvergreenFir on recentism. Saturnalia0 (talk) 04:01, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
• Include. Post P***gate scandal, it deserves a spot here. Daiyusha (talk) 07:31, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Should information about Trump's alleged sexual misconduct be in the LEAD?

Per the comment by Somedifferentstuff and the creation of the RfC below, I am closing this. I apologize for asking folks to vote again, but I hope the RfC can address this section and the others raised. I will not object to any revert of this closure if you feel this discussion may be fruitful. EvergreenFir (talk) 23:41, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Looking to get a general headcount (we can work out the amount/details after this is settled) --- Please state YES or NO -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 18:30, 17 October 2016 (UTC) YES - Given the large amount of weight that this material carries, I think some information about it should be in the lead. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 18:35, 17 October 2016 (UTC) Yes, it should obviously remain in the lead section for all the reasons stated above many times and by many editors, namely because the lead is supposed to summarise the article, because this issue is important enough to have both a first-level section in this article and its own stand-alone sub-article, and because it is the most widely reported issue relating to Trump in reliable sources. --Tataral (talk) 18:46, 17 October 2016 (UTC) CLOSE THIS and start a formal RFC. Already tried to close this once. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:50, 17 October 2016 (UTC) Please allow people to state their opinion. There is no discussion this concise currently taking place on this talk page. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 18:53, 17 October 2016 (UTC) Actually, there is, and the discussion is really redundant, because the main issue is whether we should have one sentence, 15 words or 2–3 sentences, not whether we should cover it at all (not covering such a high profile controversy with a first-level section and a sub article would be odd and highly unusual). --Tataral (talk) 18:56, 17 October 2016 (UTC) (edit conflict) #Accusations of sexual misconduct in lead section, #Removal of sexual misconduct allegations, #RFC:Recent allegations in lede, #Potential paragraph at end of lede on sex abuse allegations, #Concern about the lede, #Sentence on sexual misconduct in lede paragraph on campaign, and #Access Hollywood tape in lead section are all related to this. Make a subsection in one of those. We don't need an 8th section on this. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:59, 17 October 2016 (UTC) Then why does it keep getting removed from the lead? -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 18:58, 17 October 2016 (UTC) I'm not aware that it does. --Tataral (talk) 19:00, 17 October 2016 (UTC) You can see it if you look at the edit history. Here's one example [1] - Here's another [2] -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 19:01, 17 October 2016 (UTC) @EvergreenFir: Could you do something about this perhaps? I'd do it myself but I don't have time right now. A centralized RfC with a clear and neutral wording would be really nice right now. ~Awilley (talk) 22:59, 17 October 2016 (UTC) @Awilley: I'll give it a shot... there are so many issues to address though. EvergreenFir (talk) 23:13, 17 October 2016 (UTC) No - Pretty clear example of WP:RECENTISM. The lede is meant to be an overall summary of the life and times of Trump. The recent sexual allegations make up a pretty negligible portion of those life and times. This topic may cease to receive attention on Nov 9th. NickCT (talk) 19:34, 17 October 2016 (UTC) Yes - Recentism is an essay, not a WP policy or guideline. It has become a significant issue in the election. Every major news souce that covers U.S. politics has written about it. It is an example of WP:WEIGHT, which is a WP policy. --Nbauman (talk) 20:33, 17 October 2016 (UTC) @Nbauman: I suspect that NickCT may also have been thinking of WP:BALASPS policy, which reads in pertinent part: "This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news." --Dervorguilla (talk) 22:54, 17 October 2016 (UTC) Comment - EvergreenFir, I thought this discussion would be helpful but I'm fine with you (or someone else) closing it. Thanks. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 20:21, 17 October 2016 (UTC) No. I want to see evidence that this controversy has been more significant than the other many controversies (such as Trump University and the Judge Curiel comments) before I'll support including one sentence to the lead section, let along a whole paragraph. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:44, 17 October 2016 (UTC) WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS? In fact, Trump University should be mentioned in the lead too, as a relatively prominent controversy, although not as prominent as the sexual misconduct controversy which is dominating his presidential campaign. Newspapers in Europe and around the world write about Trump's sexual misconduct around the clock; Trump University mainly received domestic coverage, and not nearly as much as the sexual misconduct controversy. --Tataral (talk) 21:49, 17 October 2016 (UTC) What does WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS have to do with this? I'm talking about WP:LEAD and WP:BALANCE within the same article. There is no possible way we can include all of Trump's controversies in his lead section. It would be pages and pages long. We should be aiming for 4-5 paragraphs max. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:52, 17 October 2016 (UTC) I realize that you have not read Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section that I pointed you to earlier. Your claims above have nothing to do with how lead sections in Wikipedia articles are actually written. In fact, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section specifically points out that "any prominent controversies" should be included in the lead. This is the most prominent controversy he has been involved in and it belongs in the lead. No one has advocated including "all of Trump's controversies" in the lead section, but a large majority supports the inclusion of the most prominent controversy and issue relating to Trump covered in reliable sources. --Tataral (talk) 22:09, 17 October 2016 (UTC) Please show me evidence that this is the most prominent controversy. I want links, not bare assertions. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 23:26, 17 October 2016 (UTC) NO - Sorry for shouting, just following the instructions. Seems redundant with #Potential paragraph at end of lede on sex abuse allegations, which already has 12 !votes, but I'll play in case there is some subtle difference I'm missing. My comments copied from 11 October above: Would you have stuck Monica in Bill Clinton's lead a few days after the story broke? That scandal resulted in the impeachment of a president and threatened to force his resignation, and even today it gets two sentences and 57 words in the lead. Gary Hart, "the clear frontrunner for the Democratic nomination", was forced to drop out of the race when news of Donna Rice surfaced, and there is not one word in his lead. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:34, 17 October 2016 (UTC) Gary Hart's lead is way too short, and should include Donna Rice. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:38, 17 October 2016 (UTC) I can see that, sorta. So ignore the Hart part and the Clinton part is enough for me. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:45, 17 October 2016 (UTC) No At this point it doesn't deserve that kind of weight. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:37, 17 October 2016 (UTC) Absolutely not. Completely undue.Zigzig20s (talk) 23:34, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

RfC: Lead issues regarding recent news/allegations

Summary of issue

There has been debates, reverts, and contentious editing regarding the lead of this BLP (see the above talk page sections: #Accusations of sexual misconduct in lead section, #Removal of sexual misconduct allegations, #RFC:Recent allegations in lede, #Potential paragraph at end of lede on sex abuse allegations, #Concern about the lede, #Sentence on sexual misconduct in lede paragraph on campaign, and #Access Hollywood tape in lead section).

There are multiple objections and issues raised, but they all center around the inclusion or exclusion of allegations of sexual misconduct, harassment, assault, and crimes by Trump against a number of women. The relevant information in the body of the article can primarily be found at § Presidential campaign, 2016, which summaries the fuller article Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations.

So far, the issues raise have been about (1) the existence of any mention in the lede and (2) the length of any such mention. Regarding (2), among those who think it should be included, some have suggested only one or two sentences be added while other suggest a stand-alone paragraph is warranted. Specific policies and guidelines raised in previous discussions include due weight, recentism, lede guidelines, potential biography of living persons violations, and adherence to a neutral point of view.

Examples of past lede edits: paragraphs, paragraph, sentence.

Need for this RfC

Current discussions are disjointed, redundant, and contentious. Some attempts at consensus-building and !voting have been relative unfruitful. It is unclear if there is consensus for anything. Unlike straw polls and other !votes, an RfC can help bring in new editors to voice their opinions and (hopefully) generate a stronger consensus. Per a request in the above section, I am making a good-faith attempt at creating a neutrally-worded RfC to assess consensus on the aforementioned issues. If you feel I have not adequately or correctly summarized the debate, please feel free to suggest clarification or changes to the background infomation. Because of the complicated nature of the issues and past discussion, please forgive my multi-question RfC. It is the only way I can see any RfC addressing the core issues and making any headway.

Questions

1. Should the lede of this BLP include any summary of the allegations of sexual misconduct against Trump?
2. If the material is included, to what extent should it be covered in the lead?

Thank you for your time and input. EvergreenFir (talk) 23:39, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

RfC opinions and discussion

• Note - I have left messages on the talk pages of users who !voted in the above closed discussion inviting them to comment on this RfC. EvergreenFir (talk) 23:46, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
• 1. No; 2. One sentence. Our guideline on lead sections says that the lead should be a concise summary of the article's most important contents and as a general rule of thumb should be limited to 4 paragraphs. This article is extremely dense due to the... hm... richness of Mr. Trump's life, so some unusually extreme vetting must be done to keep the lead manageable. At this point, I have seen no evidence (such as reliable sources) indicating that the recent controversy surrounding allegations of sexual misconduct is any more biographically significant than other major controversies of the last year, including Trump University and the statements about Judge Curiel, which are not mentioned in the lead section. Therefore I oppose any inclusion at this point, and if we do include something, it should be minimal. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 23:48, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

  One sentence could go on forever.Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:48, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

• No opinion at this time about whether it should go in the lead and if it is included it should not exceed 15 words. As of now, more than 15 words is undue weight especially given that not even the presidential debates are mentioned in the lead. There is also no justification for putting the word "rape" into the lead, nor for omitting Trump's denial of all the allegations. It can all be done in 15 words or less.Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:48, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

  I would like to add that the lead currently refers to "rape, and child rape". This is truly outrageous crap to have in this lead. After all, the rest of the BLP says nothing about any rape aside from the alleged child rape, for very good reason. The alleged adult rape victims withdrew the charges. For example, Collins, Eliza (July 28, 2015). "Ivana Trump denies accusing Donald Trump of rape". Politico. As for the alleged child rape, according to The Guardian newspaper, lawsuits by this "Jane Doe" against Trump "appear to have been orchestrated by an eccentric anti-Trump campaigner with a record of making outlandish claims about celebrities," a former producer on the The Jerry Springer Show. See Swaine, Jon (July 7, 2016). "Rape lawsuits against Donald Trump linked to former TV producer; Norm Lubow, formerly a producer on the Jerry Springer show, apparently coordinated lawsuits accusing Donald Trump of raping a child in the 1990s". The Guardian. Retrieved October 17, 2016. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anythingyouwant (talk • contribs) 00:52, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

• No and one short sentence - Would you have stuck Monica in Bill Clinton's lead a few days after the story broke? That scandal resulted in the historic impeachment of a president and threatened to force his resignation, and the whole thing gets two sentences and 57 words in the lead. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:50, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
  • Bill Clinton's biography does include the Lewinsky controversy in the lead. A key difference, of course, is that Bill Clinton is a former President of the United States with a very long track record and impact, whereas Trump is a guy with no political experience who is mainly known around the world for being accused of sexually assaulting women and spewing racist comments. Another difference is that Lewinsky was a consenting adult, and that Clinton has not been accused of (or admitted to!) sexually assaulting an endless list of women over many decades. The comparison with the treatment of the Lewinsky case in Bill Clinton's article indeed highlights why this (much more serious) controversy should obviously be included in this article (on a guy whose credentials/public track record is nothing compared to Clinton; hence this controversy is more important for and defining of the topic Donald Trump than Lewinsky is of the topic Bill Clinton). --Tataral (talk) 01:04, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
    • Here's my counter to the "long track record and impact" argument, and I'll pass on the rest and leave that to the closer.
      Bill Clinton - file size 186K - readable prose size per User:Dr pda/prosesize 65K
      Donald Trump - file size 327K - readable prose size 88K
      I know, I've been here before, we can get into which sub-articles about each person should be included in that comparison, but I'm passing on that too. What's clear is that Trump has had plenty of "impact", just of a different type than Clinton.
      mainly known around the world for being accused of sexually assaulting women and spewing racist comments. No POV in that argument! ―Mandruss ☎ 01:49, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
      • Measuring impact by whether the article is bloated or not seems like an odd idea, and based on which policy/sources exactly? On Wikipedia, articles are supposed to be readable prose; it's not like there is a contest to make the longest article. A lot of hard work has probably gone into making the Bill Clinton article sufficiently concise. What you have found out is that Bill Clinton has a well written biography within the recommended range per Wikipedia:Article size, whereas Trump has a bloated biography (not due to the very short mentions in the lead and body of the sexual assault scandal, but due to tons of excessively detailed material on trivial stuff such as "Football, cycling and boxing", which is given far more weight than the much more prominent controversy discussed here) near the "almost certainly should be divided" range per Wikipedia:Article size. --Tataral (talk) 02:20, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
        • Look, RfC survey sections are not for extended debates. I concede, you win. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:31, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

• Short sentence including denial, no more. No. Short sentence Anything else is WP:UNDUE. Editors arguing this is the most covered incident in his public life (or even his campaign) have a responsibility to demonstrate that with evidence. James J. Lambden (talk) 23:51, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
• No and very short sentence - As I mentioned in previous discussions, I feel that any mention in the lead is currently undue and recentism. In the scope of this multi-decade biography, this topic is currently minor. Such discussion in the lead belongs more on the campaign page. WP:LEAD directs us to summarize the article is a balanced manner. Currently, only a very small portion of the article covers this issue. Given that, it would not seem important enough to cover in the lead at this point. If, and only if, these allegations (1) result in a conviction or (2) are cited as the primary reason for Trump losing the election, then that would make them significant enough for the lead. In the event of the latter case or consensus forms for inclusion, I do agree with James J. Lambden that Trump's denial should be included if they remain allegations (but not if there's a conviction). EvergreenFir (talk) 23:57, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

• Yesish -- A mention should be included in the lead given the extent of claims, the extent of time period, the extent of coverage, and the extent of apparent effect. I added the "ish" as I don't think it can be summarized in the lead. It can be mentioned and the body will include the summarization. I would go for two or three sentences in the lead. Objective3000 (talk) 00:02, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

• Short paragraph (ec) of two to four sentences. I have no idea where this "15 words" thing was pulled out of but it's completely arbitrary. This is by far the biggest issue of the campaign and the fact that it is still getting extensive coverage in sources weeks later justifies its inclusion and giving it more than just "15 words". But I'm actually more concerned about what is included rather than how long. Specifically the sentence should not be something along the lines "Trump denied some accusations that were made" and leaving it at that, which is what some of the editors wanted to have. Write it straight - NPOV, no monkey business. What, when, who, where and how. First the allegations and their nature, then the fact that he denied them. Both the Bush tape and the women coming forward should be mentioned. The rape allegation can be left out of the lede.Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:06, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
• Yes One Paragraph such as the current,

"Trump has been publicly accused by at least twelve women of sexual misconduct—including sexual assault, rape, and child rape—since the 1980s. Several of these allegations preceded Trump's 2016 candidacy for president; many more arose during that campaign, especially after revelation of a 2005 audio recording, in which Trump appeared to brag about committing sexual assault. He has denied the allegations, describing them as part of a wider campaign to smear his candidacy and reputation." SPECIFICO talk 00:21, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

• Yes, per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section the lead "should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic" and "summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies". Donald Trump is mainly known (especially on a global scale) for his presidential candidacy, which is completely dominated by the sexual misconduct controversy. The sexual misconduct controversy has also received more coverage in reliable sources than any other topic related to Trump in his whole life. It is the most prominent issue related to Trump covered in reliable sources, and it is covered both in the article and in a lengthy in-depth sub article. The notion that such a prominent controversy should not be included in the lead is simply absurd and contrary to Wikipedia policy, such as Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section. We should have two or three sentences (two sentences on the controversy itself with a possible third sentence devoted to Trump's defence/views/denial), as in the current paragraph, because it is impossible to cover this material in a responsible manner in just one sentence, which would also come across as an attempt to unduly downplay the issue. The two or three sentences must however not necessarily constitute a separate paragraph; the reason the three sentences became a separate paragraph in the first place was that this material was placed at the end of an extremely bloated paragraph.--Tataral (talk) 00:40, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
• Yes. The sources clearly support this. One to two sentences that very briefly describe that allegations have been made, with details covered in the body of the article. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 01:06, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
• Yes - The content in the lead should cover Trump's Access Hollywood comments, the ensuing flood of allegations of sexual misconduct, and the impact to his presidential campaign and the GOP. Two to three sentences should be sufficient. Whether it's added to the campaign paragraph or a separate paragraph matters very little. The coverage of this scandal has gone well beyond the 24 hour news cycle. It's being covered in a sustained fashion by major international news agencies, and has even influenced pop culture [3] [4]. - MrX 02:57, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
• Yes. Even if it were a single phrase, this should be a separate paragraph. But this must be more than one phrase. Main point here is that all the allegations by different women are very similar and consistent with each other and with something Donald Trump said himself on the widely publicized tape. We must tell also that he blindly denied everything. Three short phrases should be enough. My very best wishes (talk) 04:12, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
• Note: Based on the responses so far, and in the spirit of BLP, I have boldly merged the standalone paragraph into the campaign paragraph. [5] I realize there are a couple of people who have argued for a standalone paragraph (specifically Volunteer Marek, SPECIFICO, and My very best wishes) while some have said it doesn't matter (Tataral, Mrx) and others oppose it (Dr. Fleishmann, Anythingyouwant, Mandruss, James J. Lambden) while others don't specify (saying maybe 2-3 sentences but without specifying where). This isn't meant to be a "close" or a final wording, but a quick course correction on a highly visible BLP. ~Awilley (talk) 06:42, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
• No Yes but make it very limited. Ideally just one sentence (and include the denial). The allegations are unproven and made in connection to the presidential campaign so should not be in a separate paragraph but in with the rest of the lede's presidential campaign material. However, lede material just summarizes important body content, so the content that the lede is summarizing is the content that is actually important and the content that should be used as the basis for deciding lede wording. This article is NOT Donald Trump presidential campaign, 2016 and about 80% of the article is NOT about his presidential campaign. And ALL content is subject to BLP policy - the existence of an ongoing AfD is not an excuse for allowing BLP violations. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:46, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

In the light of later no reasons presented, and also after reading the content discussions further down the page, I have changed my opinion to no. Anything but no is giving an open door to endless conflict and the insertion of tabloid like claims simply for effect. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 02:41, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

• No - not in lead ...looking for real info in lead - lead is for summarizing main points of the article MOS:INTRO = best not to mention allegations that are barely covered in the article. Best to keep lead simply say "controversy has surrounded the presidential candidacy." WP:PUBLICFIGURE -- Moxy (talk) 21:19, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
• No for now, but revisit as needed. If it is included, I have no opinion.--Malerooster (talk) 23:54, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

• No not in the lead. Largest problem I guess is the WP:LIBEL aspect of the way it's failed to meet WP:BLPCRIME, by the lead having incorrectly presented a felony label, stating it in WP voice as fact rather than a second-party report, and that the article lower down is not saying what the cite said and also edited up the tape transcript. To me though, mostly it is just offtopic -- this is supposed to be a BLP article, and this material belongs to the campaign article or sexual allegations article. Finally -- this is a BLP so anything here should follow the additional bits from WP:BLP guidelines such as writing conservatively and avoiding tabloid. Right now this is too much sensationalism, not yet events in hand to gauge the BLP significance -- and edits may be suspect of being COI political motivated until a few weeks from now. Markbassett (talk) 00:20, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

How does it violate WP:LIBEL and WP:BLPCRIME? The lead currently states "and multiple women alleged sexual harassment ... Previous sexual assault claims ... Trump vigorously denied the allegations" -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 19:52, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

• 1. Yes. 2. As short as possible to specifically state the essential facts: The Washington Post released a 2005 recording of Trump bragging about making sexual advances towards women. Add "Trump denied the allegations," but we don't have to give Trump's full non-defense. That's what I would do, but I realize some editors would give more space to defend Trump. I disagree but would go along for consensus. I also argue that it must go in the introduction because the charges of sexual advances aren't in the Table of Contents and aren't easy to find in the body. The introduction should say, "This article discusses that incident." If I were writing it, I would put “Grab them by the pussy” in the lede. That will tell readers that it's about that incident, they're in the right place if they're looking for it. I may not get consensus for that, but that would best serve the reader. --Nbauman (talk) 03:10, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
• Yes; the whole "tape, allegations, response, media plot" trail of events, in the lede, with 2 or 3 concise and succinct sentences. It speaks to his character and attitude...to moments in his life. Buster Seven Talk 12:16, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
• No - Per WP:BALASPS/WP:RECENTISM - The lead is meant to summarize the whole life and times of Trump. These recent allegations have make up so little of that life and times that they don't deserve mention. NickCT (talk) 12:51, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

First, WP:RECENTISM is just an essay of the personal opinions of some WP editors, not a guideline or policy. In many cases, it doesn't make sense. When you have an article about a current issue, like an election, everything is recent. Would you like to delete everything more recent than 1 year from the article? Second, according to WP:RS, Trump has been doing this all his adult life, documented by his Howard Stern interviews and the complaints of many women. His sexual advances towards women are a major part of Trump's life and the personna that he himself presented. --Nbauman (talk) 13:12, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

His sexual advances towards women are a major part of Trump's life, you really believe that? Please don't answer, its a rhetorical question. --Malerooster (talk) 14:30, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

@Nbauman: - WP:BALASPS is a policy. re "Trump has been doing this all his adult life" - I don't really think you have any idea of what Trump has or has not been doing his whole life. Fact is that most of the "allegations" at this point are just that. Allegations. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them are true, but I'm not so biased to assume they are. Unlike you apparently. NickCT (talk) 14:54, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

According to many WP:RS, his sexual advances towards women are a major part of Trump's life. http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-trump-clinton-allegations-20161019-snap-htmlstory.html http://people.com/politics/every-sexual-assault-accusation-against-donald-trump/ and many more. --Nbauman (talk) 04:55, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

@Nbauman: - You get that there are probably millions of RS's about Trump, right? You understand that a very, very small portion of them specifically cover these sexual allegations? You realize it only seems to you like this issue is important because you have a hard time remembering things which have occurred outside the past week's news cycle? NickCT (talk) 10:37, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

@NickCT: You get that the LAT and People magazine are major news media, right? I don't think there are any major news media covering the election that haven't covered Trump's sexual advances -- even the sober Christian Science Monitor http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2016/1010/Debate-fact-check-Teasing-the-truth-out-of-Trump-and-Clinton- . You realize that May 14 http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/15/us/politics/donald-trump-women.html is longer than a week ago, right? You realize that I live in New York City and we've been hearing Trump brag about his sexual conquests since his appearances on the Howard Stern show, right? --Nbauman (talk) 21:35, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

• 'No'; These allegations have not been proven and are not a major part of his life. Mentioning them in the lead gives the article an anti-Trump bias. For comparison, the lead of Bill Clinton's article is much more positive and doesn't even mention the allegations about Clinton, other than his impeachment. Ag97 (talk) 15:10, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
• 'No... or at least, not yet.' This is why we have WP:RECENTISM. The latest political firestorm may or may not end up being a defining characteristic worthy of the lede. We can't jam every accusation into the intro simply because it's today's controversy. Revisit this issue in six months or a year and see where it stands. Cosmic Sans (talk) 16:22, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
• Yes - 1 or 2 sentences per WP:Weight. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 23:02, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
• Absolutely not. Completely undue. Defamatory content should not appear in a BLP.Zigzig20s (talk) 02:53, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
• Comment. This RfC should be properly closed. Please do not change content under discussion during standing RfC. Thank you. My very best wishes (talk) 04:31, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

While it should be possible to make a mention in the lede of the allegations without infringing on BLP requirements, ongoing RfCs don't place a hold on BLP obligations. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 19:27, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

• Yes, absolutely - we have a separate article on this, which was WP:SNOW kept at AFD for pete's sake. That article is linked and summarized within this article - and linked in the infobox - so of course the lede should have at least a few sentences about it. More generally: this is something that is covered in literally hundreds of reliable sources now, there's really no excuse for not giving that coverage due weight in the lede. My suggestion would be 2-3 sentences but the important thing is that it's mentioned. Fyddlestix (talk) 14:13, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
• Support inclusion, because the introduction should summarise the main points of the article, and the allegations have been a significant element in the election campaign. A couple of sentences will probably suffice, outlining the allegations and that he denies them. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:34, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
• 1. No. 2. Short mention of allegations. – This affair is nothing but WP:RECENTist hyperventilation. If and when such allegations go beyond gossip with actual trials, then let's revisit. Note that even Bill Clinton's lead section does not mention sexual impropriety despite abundant mentions in the article itself and on a dedicated page. The lead just states he was impeached and pardoned following the Lewinski scandal. — JFG ^talk 00:12, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
• Minimal, and only if conjoined. The sexual allegations section takes up 2% of the entire 16,000-word article. But the allegations are 12% (57 words) of the lead. So it's a no-brainer, IMO. I'd give the topic max 4-6 words in the lead, which means it could be conjoined with other controversial issues. However, if WP starts selling and relying of advertising, like the MSM, we could go back to 12%, or up to 50%, to remain competitive. --Light show (talk) 18:56, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

Addendum: I'm not sure about any specific guidelines about allegations, but it seems totally wrong to include things such as allegations, accusations, hearsay, innuendos, insinuations, or gossip anywhere in a lead. It can turn leads into tabloid-type leads. I've seen a number of famous people resign over the years to fight off simple allegations, even before a court hearing. For instance, Dominique Strauss-Kahn, head of the IMF, resigned, and there was never even a trial. It was a pure case of "trial by media", which IMO is possibly one of the worst effects of the readership-hungry MSM. --Light show (talk) 01:55, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

• Yes, one sentence. The coverage for this instance is enormous. I frequently examine man news sources outside the US because I use those for Wikipedia work: and this incident received global coverage in a big way. Leaving it out is not an option: a paragraph, though, is undue weight. Vanamonde (talk) 05:29, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
• 1. Yes, 2. Up to the extent needed to adequately reflect it according MOS:LEAD. The current 3 sentences are appropriate according to the current status of findings. --SI 22:28, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
• Yes to include in lead, and the current wording and length is fine. Summoned to this by bot, and I commend EvergreenFir for an exceptonally clear and well-drafted RfC. So many RfCs are murky, this one set forth the issue clearly and in a neutral fashion. The coverage, as Vanamonde93 points out, is enormous. It has dominated the election campaign. An easy call. Coretheapple (talk) 14:01, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
• Yes prominent controversies can be covered in the lead per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section and this controversy is definitely prominent enough for inclusion. But we should only have 1 sentence because per MOS:INTRO "The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article." Furthermore, anything more than a sentence could give undue weight to the controversy since it's barely even covered in the article. WP:RECENTISM is an essay we could choose to follow if we wanted to, but since it's just an essay- there is no point in following it unless there is a very good reason why we should do so. (Summoned by bot). Prcc27🌍 (talk) 15:14, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
• Yes, a few sentences. Yes, one sentence. Dervorguilla's detailed analysis of the coverage of this topic in mainstream media sources has changed my mind. While I might not argue for exactly 12 words of coverage, I think it should be at least a factor of two away from that ideal. The lead certainly isn't balanced in other areas (though it should be), so aiming for about twenty words should let it be covered accurately enough to avoid misinterpretation. Controversial subjects usually require more precise language, but I don't think that means they're being given undue weight.

My comment copied from below

Sources: The manual of style says, "The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies." WP:BLPCOI says, "Wikipedia articles concerning living persons may include material—where relevant, properly weighted, and reliably sourced—about controversies or disputes in which the article subject has been involved." The manual of style also says, "When writing about controversies in the lead of the biography of a living person, notable material should neither be suppressed nor allowed to overwhelm: always pay scrupulous attention to reliable sources, and make sure the lead correctly reflects the entirety of the article. Write clinically, and let the facts speak for themselves."

In my opinion, we shouldn't give too much weight to the fact that the article covers some trivial topics more than important ones right now. It will probably have to be reworked later on, since its readable prose size is 89 kB. JasperTECH (talk) 18:16, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

• Yes, of course, with two sentences. It is already clear that this issue amounts to a significant turning point in his presidential campaign, which is obviously the biggest part of his notability. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 02:39, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

• No per WP:RECENT, WP:UNDUE, WP:LEDE. Allegations have no place in the lede. Let's also keep in mind this is a separate and different article from Donald Trump 2016 presidential campaign. A short sentence to the effect of "The campaign has been surrounded by controversy." or something like that should suffice. Athenean (talk) 03:57, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Athenean, we already have the sentence: "Trump's campaign has received unprecedented media coverage and international attention. Many of his statements in interviews, on Twitter, and at campaign rallies have been controversial or false. Several rallies during the primaries were accompanied by protests or riots." To clarify, are you suggesting something in addition to this? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 16:57, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

• Yes prominent controversies can be covered in the lead per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section and this controversy is definitely prominent enough for inclusion, meets WP:V and WP:RS and can be written neutrally. But we should only have 1 sentence because per MOS:INTRO "The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article." Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:18, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

• No this man is a 70 year old billionaire, tv guy, etc and page is about his life.. 2 week news story is not why he is famous — Preceding unsigned comment added by KMilos (talk • contribs) 13:01, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

"2 week news story is not why he is famous" - that's not what this is at all.Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:35, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

• Yes to include more than one sentence. The Access Hollywood tape appears to be an integral part of the narrative of how this election has unfolded, and hence of the narrative of Donald Trump's political career. It is having too many other effects in the election and political landscape to be considered just another controversy. Now, nearly three weeks later, sources report these impacts in other races [6] [7], the media [8], and the Republican party [9]. To do it NPOV justice, it should be framed as part of the election and it seems like more than one sentence will be required. It could be either a standalone paragraph or in a campaign paragraph, I think. Chris vLS (talk) 15:13, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

• Less than 12 9–25 words, otherwise no, per MOS:INTRO and WP:UNDUE/BALASP.

Relative emphasis, MOS:INTRO. The due-weight policy holds "for both the lead and the body of the article. If there is a difference in emphasis between the two, editors should seek to resolve the discrepancy."

Calculating emphasis by total readable prose size:

§ Sexual misconduct allegations = 275 words,

Article = 14,675 words,

275 words ÷ 14,675 words = 0.019.

§ Intro = 451 words,

0.019 × 451 words = 8.5 words.

Balancing aspects, WP:BALASP. "An article ... should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to the weight of that aspect in the body of reliable sources on the subject."

Calculating weight by the number of search results in five of the most reputable mainstream publications and news agencies:

|}

Search results: Sexual assault "Donald Trump" site:bbc.com/news = about 5,720 results,

Search results: "Donald Trump" site:bbc.com/news = about 220,000 results.

5,720 results ÷ 220,000 results = 0.026,

0.026 × 451 words = 11.7 words.

Search results: Sexual assault "Donald Trump" site:wsj.com/articles/ = about 1,740 results,

Search results: "Donald Trump" site:wsj.com/articles/ = about 195,000 results.

1,740 results ÷ 195,000 results = 0.009,

0.009 × 451 words = 4.0 words.

Search results: Sexual assault "Donald Trump" site:www.nytimes.com: about 60,700 results,

Search results: "Donald Trump" site:www.nytimes.com: about 3,380,000 results.

60,700 results ÷ 3,380,000 results = 0.0180,

0.018 × 451 words = 8.1 words.

Search results: Sexual assault "Donald Trump" site:bigstory.ap.org = about 409 results,

Search results: "Donald Trump" site:bigstory.ap.org = about 6,080 results.

409 results ÷ 6,080 results = 0.0673,

0.0673 × 451 words = 30.3 words.

Search results: Sexual assault "Donald Trump" site:reuters.com/news = about 169 results,

Search results: "Donald Trump" site:reuters.com/news = about 5,090 results.

169 results ÷ 5,090 results = 0.033,

0.033 × 451 words = 15.0 words.

|}

Trimmed mean = (8.1 + 11.7 + 15.0)/3 = 11.6 words. --Dervorguilla (talk) 06:06, 29 October 2016 (UTC) 12:34, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

A most beautiful and dispassionate argument; I applaud your research, Dervorguilla! — JFG ^talk 09:13, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

I must admit - that's pretty solid. Compressing it into 12 words will be... interesting. This approach, though time-intensive, could be used for balancing the lead in other areas too. For instance, there's a sentence that mentions that his campaigns have often been accompanied by protests and rallies, but as far as I can tell, there is literally just one corresponding sentence in the article body to back it up. JasperTECH (talk) 16:08, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

@JasperTech: I'll take the challenge: "After lewd comments from 2005 emerged, 15 women accused Trump of unwanted sexual advances." That's 14 words. Add one cite about the tape and one about the accusations; done! — JFG ^talk 20:14, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

The earlier RFC made the mistake of counting words and was widely derided/disapproved of. We are writing an article not a spreadsheet and I strongly object to going down the "exactly x words" route. Dervorguilla's analysis does not account for synonyms, for whether a mention of Trump was on "page 1" or on page b7 of a newspaper (or in the classifieds, or about a Trump property, or in a weekly recap of "the apprentice"), etc. Weight simply cannot can't be" calculated" this way. Fyddlestix (talk) 20:53, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

(←)

@Fyddlestix: "Counting words" is actually mandated by policy. "Undue weight can be given in several ways, including ... quantity of text, prominence of placement..." Adding synonyms -- in particular, the word "groping" -- does make sense, though. (So does substituting the phrase "sexual assault" for the words "sexual AND assault".)

Search results

Search results: sexual-misconduct OR sexual-assault OR sexual-harassment OR forcible-fondling OR groping OR sexually-assaulted OR sexually-harassed OR forcibly-fondled "Donald Trump" site:bbc.com/news/ = about 4,970 results, Search results: "Donald Trump" site:bbc.com/news/ = about 242,000 results. 4,970 Results ÷ 242,000 results = 0.021, 0.021× 451 Words = 9.3 words. Search results: sexual-misconduct OR sexual-assault OR sexual-harassment OR forcible-fondling OR groping OR sexually-assaulted OR sexually-harassed OR forcibly-fondled "Donald Trump" site:wsj.com/articles/ = about 12,000 results, Search results: "Donald Trump" site:wsj.com/articles/ = about 172,000 results. 12,000 Results ÷ 172,000 results = 0.070, 0.070 × 451 Words = 31.5 words. Search results: sexual-misconduct OR sexual-assault OR sexual-harassment OR forcible-fondling OR groping OR sexually-assaulted OR sexually-harassed OR forcibly-fondled "Donald Trump" site:www.nytimes.com = about 104,000 results, Search results: "Donald Trump" site:www.nytimes.com = about 3,390,000 results. 104,000 Results ÷ 3,390,000 results = 0.031, 0.031 × 451 Words = 13.8 words. Search results: sexual-misconduct OR sexual-assault OR sexual-harassment OR forcible-fondling OR groping OR sexually-assaulted OR sexually-harassed OR forcibly-fondled "Donald Trump" site:bigstory.ap.org = about 520 results, Search results: "Donald Trump" site:bigstory.ap.org = about 6,230 results, 520 Results ÷ 6,230 results = 0.081, 0.081 × 451 Words = 36.3 words. Search results: sexual-misconduct OR sexual-assault OR sexual-harassment OR forcible-fondling OR groping OR sexually-assaulted OR sexually-harassed OR forcibly-fondled "Donald Trump" site:reuters.com/news/ = about 322 results, Search results: "Donald Trump" site:reuters.com/news/ = about 4,660 results. 322 Results ÷ 4,660 results = 0.069, 0.069 × 451 Words = 31.2 words. Mean = (9.3 + 31.5 + 13.8 + 36.3 + 31.2)/5 = 24.4 words.

--Dervorguilla (talk) 12:34, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

--

• No See Arnold Schwartzenegger, another populist politician subject to similar accusations. There is a section on sexual misconduct but nothing in the lede, because it doesn't define who he is. Thundermaker (talk) 02:21, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

• No This is a WP:BLP, let's not forget. This is extremely defamatory stuff in the most visited BLP article in Wikipedia, and worst of all: it's Donald Trump! This guy is known to have sued many people and institutions of defamatory things like this. Let's not play with fire here. Étienne Dolet (talk) 05:37, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

• Yes, one sentence. The coverage of this is enormous (world-wide), to not mention that this is a key issue would be borderline censorship, there is no need to go through a, (accused), grope-by-grope account, which is dealt with in other articles. Pincrete (talk) 16:26, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

discussion re editor conduct

Notice Pleace take into account that there is an AE case opened by DrFleischman against My very best wishes and DrFleischman just wrote to "My very best wishes" on his talk page: "Tell you what, if you can somehow, miraculously convince everyone editing the article to stop edit warring and to leave sexual misconduct out of the lead section until the RfC is resolved, then I'll withdraw my complaint.". I'm really shocked. So as I understand, that AE-case is deliberately used to force content out of this article by trying to force one user to grant a consensus here. This is in no way acceptable. --SI 15:11, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Addition of sexual misconduct content to lead section while RfC is ongoing

Awilley, I appreciate your effort to find middle ground, but no consensus seems to be forming around adding two sentences to the lead section about the recent controversy. If we end up with no consensus then we should remove this content, so could you please remove it until consensus supports otherwise? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:26, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Let's give it a few days. Headcount is only one aspect of determining consensus. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 23:13, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

@DrFleischman: I think you misunderstood my edit. I didn't add 2 sentences to the lead section, I took an already existing 3-sentence paragraph from the lead section, condensed it into 2 sentences, and merged it into the campaign paragraph. Take a closer look at the diff you linked. I'm sure you'll agree that there is also no consensus forming around having an entire paragraph in the lead. I'm not sure what the status quo was when the RfC was started, but hopefully it will end with something more definitive than "no consensus". ~Awilley (talk) 00:39, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

@Awilley: A, that edit of yours during the RfC was entirely out of process. There was clearly no consensus for your version, and consensus is required under the circumstances. Please self-revert that and let's continue to resolve via established channels. Bold doesn't mean OK. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 23:22, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

I think what Awilley did was mostly a proper course correction justified by comments thus far at this page. Editors who have commented in this subsection have further tweaked it, for the better I think.Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:28, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Well if he doesn't revert himself, I am going to. We don't adjust to whoever comments first. And you know that. SPECIFICO talk 01:27, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

The lead is relatively quiescent now. If there are things about it that you dislike, let's talk about it. I'm against turning the clock back to before Awilley legitimately implemented talk page consensus.Anythingyouwant (talk) 01:32, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

You shoulda thoughta that before mounting various RfC's. SPECIFICO talk 01:43, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean.Anythingyouwant (talk) 01:45, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

Regarding this edit of mine, here is my edit summary: "Reverting huge edit to lead. Per WP:BLP, as I have explained and no one has disputed, 'Sexual assault is a broad term that often (if not usually) suggests rape or attempted rape'." My view is that numerous editors have tried during the past week to explicitly put "rape" into this lead, and having failed the next best thing is to insinuate rape in the lead. If that is not the intent, it has surely been the effect. In any event, the purpose of my edit was to revert that.Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:24, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

Is there a consensus against using the words "alleged sexual assault?" I can't find it. Also, this language is the direct language used by the consensus in the press. It satisfies WP:DUE and WP:CITE. There is no reason not to use that language.Oneshotofwhiskey (talk) 16:23, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, I probably read through the Talk page too quickly before writing a summary on my recent revision. Yes, it seems that since the sexual harassment page interchangeably uses "sexual assault" and "sexual harassment," it doesn't matter which one is used. I do think that "assault" sounds more severe than "harassment," which sounds more severe than "misconduct."

EDIT: In my opinion, "assault" makes the most sense, considering that it is used 44 times in the other article (including references), compared to only three times for "harassment" and three times for "misconduct." JasperTECH (talk) 16:53, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

Do you think it's appropriate for Wikipedia to choose ambiguous terms that suggest Trump may have done a lot worse (rape, attempted rape) than most reliable sources say is being alleged? I don't. Incidentally, this discussion seems scattered all over this page, and it should be consolidated in the "Less obvious BLP violation" subsection, so feel free to move both of our comments there.Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:43, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

I think it will make the most sense for future readers if we leave these comments here and continue the discussion down there. JasperTECH (talk) 19:51, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

Addition of sexual misconduct content to lead section while RfC is ongoing, take 2

So we currently have three sentences in the lead section about the sexual misconduct allegations. Please, someone, where is the consensus for this? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:08, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

I've removed the material from the lead section, which keeps being re-added despite the pending RfC. Reviewing the above RfC, I don't see consensus to keep anything in the lead section about the allegations of sexual misconduct, let alone 3 sentences. Please do not re-add this material until there is consensus to do so. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:25, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Jeppiz, please self-revert your re-addition of this material, which lacks consensus, before administrative action becomes necessary. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:32, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

DrFleischman I utterly reject your accusations and remind you of WP:OWN. All I did was to restore material you deleted (and which I didn't add). For you to call that an edit war is frankly ridiculous. As for consensus, nowhere does it say that consensus or lack of consensus is in favour of leaving material out rather than in. Of course consensus is preferable but rather unlikely in this article. That's not an excuse to impose censorship of any criticism. Jeppiz (talk) 20:47, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

This is anything but censorship. The material is in the body of the article, and no one is trying to keep it out, least of all me. The majority of participants in the RfC above agree that 3 sentences in the lead section is undue emphasis. As for excluding material when there's no consensus, see our policy on the subject. No consensus generally means to revert back to the article before the bold edit(s), and when in doubt, exclude contentious material from BLPs. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:53, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

• Comment While I assume good faith, some users seem to use veeery long RfCs as a way to obstruct the addition of any material, no matter how factual, that doesn't favour their candidate. RfCs should not be use to impose censorship on Wikipedia. Jeppiz (talk) 20:51, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

That is the antithesis of AGF, and is completely unconstructive IMO. All I see is that you are imposing your will against the majority of your fellow editors, regardless of your good intentions, RfC bedamned. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:55, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

@DrFleischman:

• The manual of style says, "The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies."
• WP:BLPCOI says, "Wikipedia articles concerning living persons may include material—where relevant, properly weighted, and reliably sourced—about controversies or disputes in which the article subject has been involved."
• The manual of style also says, "When writing about controversies in the lead of the biography of a living person, notable material should neither be suppressed nor allowed to overwhelm: always pay scrupulous attention to reliable sources, and make sure the lead correctly reflects the entirety of the article. Write clinically, and let the facts speak for themselves."

The RfC should be about how much content to put in the main paragraph - not whether it should be included at all. The quotations above clearly show that the lead paragraph needs to cover the allegations at least to some extent. JasperTECH (talk) 21:25, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

You are free to add your perspective to the RfC above, but this discussion is about something different. It's about whether we should be re-inserting and re-inserting and re-inserting three sentences into the lead section during a pending RfC when there's no consensus to do so. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:14, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

@DrFleischman,Prcc27&James J. Lambden: please refrain from making reverts that could be seen as a "1RR Editwar" towards exclusion of the material that has a long consensus to be included and a RfC that is clearly leaning towards including (17:13), it would be very "Trumpish" to deny this fact. ;) --SI 17:48, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Schmarrnintelligenz, where is this so-called longstanding consensus? Wikipedia is not a democracy so we don't go by majority vote, and even if we did, a majority of RfC participants are against including 3 sentences in the lead section. I am in fact about ready to take this to ANI or AE for those who (collectively) repeatedly reinsert controversial material into a BLP without consensus, and those who (collectively) repeatedly falsely cite some mysterious, unwritten consensus. I'm having a hard time seeing this as anything other than pre-election POV pushing and disruption. Please convince me otherwise. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 18:52, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

I agree with DrFleischman's assessment. We are talking about the LEAD here folks, where it was boldly added and reverted and discussion was started and I guess continues?!? There is NO clear consensus for inclusion in the LEAD, full stop, so we should default to the previous versions. Folks can quote WP:LEAD all day, but it comes down to editorial agreement/consensus. --Malerooster (talk) 19:07, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

• Comment I just wanted to interject that while I favor inclusion of the allegations in the lead section, and have opined to that effect in the RfC, my general feeling is that such things should be excluded pending conclusion of an RfC, per our general attitude toward BLPs. Coretheapple (talk) 19:55, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Good points. But it's also worth noting that this single RfC about sexual allegations only, is already 6,600 words long, yet it concerns a subsection only 2% of the article body and isn't even in the table of contents. The article has numerous other controversies with much more commentary, all unrelated to sex, but none of which are mentioned in the lead. This obsession with sexual issues appears to be intent on equating Trump with Jimmy Savile, whose article was 38% about sexual issues. The implication from this debate is that merely making a public allegation against someone is all it takes to place that allegation in the lead, and thereby undermine the neutrality of a bio with MSM news and soapish commentary. Leads are too important in massive articles and should be heavily monitored to comply with BLP guidelines, not those used by tabloids. --Light show (talk) 20:33, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Can we please reserve these types of arguments to the RfC above? This section is about what to do in the short term while the RfC is pending. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:38, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Yes, let's not re-litigate the underlying passage. I was commenting on what to do while this RfC was pending. Coretheapple (talk) 13:45, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

• This material should remain out of the lead until the RfC closes, or there is a clear consensus (at least 67% in favor, after discounting !votes that do not cite a policy-based reason. {Currently, I see one !vote on each side of the dispute that would be almost entirely discounted}).- MrX 16:51, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
• According to the previous section (RfC itself), there is consensus that the content should remain in the lead, although not necessarily as a separate paragraph, or at least this is my reading. My very best wishes (talk) 19:26, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

You are entitled that reading, though others are entitled to the opposite, and I think there's no doubt that consensus is against having three sentences in the lead, as you have re-inserted three times during the pendency of the RfC. The whole time you ignored my repeated good faith inquiries in this subsection and the one immediately above. This is known as disruption. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:31, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

I am sorry, but you are mistaken. This is not a BLP violation as something extraordinary well sourced, highly notable and already described below on the page. It is generally accepted that we should not change version of text under discussion during standing RfC. Repeatedly doing so is indeed disruptive. My very best wishes (talk) 19:39, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

I don't see any consensus for this third sentence you inserted: "Two sexual assault claims, made against him prior to the campaign, also received increased media attention." This wasn't in the BLP when the RFC began, there's clearly no consensus to have a third sentence in the lead about the general subject, this sentence refers to stuff that has gotten relatively little press coverage, and the allegations discussed in this third sentence were all withdrawn at one time or another, though some of them are subsequently revived.Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:53, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

• Here is version of the page which existed at the moment of posting this RfC. Strictly speaking, any modifications of the last paragraph in intro of this version is a violation of the RfC guidelines. But OK, some people improved this last paragraph (according you your suggestions!) and made it more neutral and less visible by placing it in the end of another paragraph. But you demand to remove this completely, even before the official closing of an RfC. This is not the way to go. My very best wishes (talk) 20:17, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

• I haven't demanded that, and have taken no position about removing it completely.Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:25, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

There is clearly consensus to include this material, as established numerous times over the last two weeks. There may perhaps not be consensus for a separate paragraph, but the current short mention at the end of another paragraph that has been stable over nearly 2 weeks should not be removed without any consensus. Also note that we don't count votes here; what matters is the strength of policy-based arguments. A removal of very well sourced material because it doesn't favour one's preferred candidate in an election is wholly inappropriate. --Tataral (talk) 02:21, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

The added material is clearly undue, as the tag indicates, and has obviously corrupted the lead, IMO. Allowing the addition of a single dated incident, supported by wikilinking to other articles based on allegations and controversies, violates many BLP guidelines. My own concern is not related to guilt or innocence so much as the corruption of WP guidelines. I also wonder how many, if any, of the editor-voters who insist on keeping the sex topics in the lead, despite the allegations being just 2% of the body, are U.S. editors. There would seem to be more worrisome problems in other places than this obsession with a kissing and groping candidate from another nation. --Light show (talk) 16:23, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

• Please note: There is a relevant, pending complaint to enforce arbitration remedies at WP:AE#My very best wishes. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:01, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Helpful interim edits

The WP:RFC guidelines do say it's OK to make helpful edits to content under RfC discussion. Question: Does anyone here see this one as unhelpful?

'Trump bragged about...' -> 'Trump jokingly bragged about...'

References

The word banter means "animated joking back and forth." (Merriam-Webster Unabridged.) So "jokingly bragged" is a reasonable paraphrase of "bragged as part of this banter". Alternative wording:

'Trump jocularly bragged about...'

The subject made the clarification about "banter" in an authoritative press release and was quoted by the Washington Post in its breaking story; to me, this looks like it would meet all the WP:BLPSELFPUB criteria. --Dervorguilla (talk) 13:22, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

This would be very inconsistent with the majority of RS (which mention neither "jokingly" nor "banter"). And given Trumps well documented, easily verifiable propensity to fib there's no way we should be giving his own excuses more weight than a very large number of RS that say something different (although we could certainly note his perspective I guess - it just shouldn't be treated as factual). Fyddlestix (talk) 13:31, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. This is decidedly a minority view, and it doesn't help that it's the subject's own view (spin). We would also want to consider what reliable sources have had to say about this press release. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 13:35, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

@Fyddlestix and Nomoskedasticity: Thanks, and you're 100% right about their not mentioning "jokingly". Indeed, many don't bring up Trump's statement at all. Of those that do bring it up, however, the vast majority actually mention "banter" (usually citing Trump's phrase, "locker-room banter"). Indeed, you'll have trouble finding even one mainstream source who would assert that it wasn't locker-room banter -- the polite term for "bullshitting". (bullshit, vb. "To lie or exaggerate to.") Trump acknowledges he was exaggerating to Bush; most professional journalists already suspected he was exaggerating to Bush.

So at this point it looks like there's nothing to worry about: We can just go ahead and add "banteringly". (Do let me know if you come up with anything interesting, though.) --Dervorguilla (talk) 15:04, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

I strongly object to that - you and I must be looking at very different sources because the suggestion that "most professional journalists already suspected he was exaggerating" appears completely unfounded to me. To me it appears crystal clear that most professional journalists have taken Trump's statements very seriously, and the 15 women who've come forward to accuse Trump of doing exactly what he said he had done on the tape suggests that this was very far from "bullshit" (NB: the media has obviously taken those women's claims seriously too). We can say that Trump says this was banter (and properly source that statement), but we can't say that it was banter (much less "bullshit," or a similar synonym) - because most sources suggest that it was actually a pretty accurate description of things Trump has done and how he behaves. Fyddlestix (talk) 15:52, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

This is not helpful, and discussion of the language used if we do include something is already ongoing below in the section entitled "Language in lead section about sexual misconduct." --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:26, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Addition of sexual misconduct content to lead section while RfC is ongoing, take 3

We currently have two sentences in the lead section about sexual assault. I don't see consensus for this. Can someone please point me to it? Or do I have to list each and every editor who has violated active arbitration remedies by restoring content without consensus? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:06, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Do you think an early close to the RfC would help? It's been running for over 2 weeks now, and could provide some sort of guidance. ~Awilley (talk) 18:04, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I think that would be helpful. The last time I requested an early close I got slapped, so I'm not going to do it myself. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:29, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Yes an early close would be very helpful, or at least an evaluation of the consensus so far, by an involved editor.- MrX 22:20, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

I think you mean UNinvolved... --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:43, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, yes! MrX is distracted as usual.- MrX 23:08, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Language in lead section about sexual misconduct

Capacity for groping and forcibly kissing women

I do not think this edit is neutral, in which Anythingyouwant changed: "Trump bragged about groping and forcibly kissing women..." to: "Trump privately bragged about his capacity for groping and forcibly kissing women due to his fame..." Reframing the controversy as Trump saying he could do those things is deceptive. Yes Trump bragged about his ability to do those things, but he also bragged about actually doing them, and that's what the uproar is about. Sources such as the original Washington Post story back this up. Or just listen to the tape yourself. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:42, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

As you know, I quoted Daily Beast in my edit summary. But you have not quoted anything in the Washington Post. So I will go read the article you have linked, plus some others. I'm glad we agree the lead is factually correct, but if more needs to be said then we can do so.Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:47, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Okay, I've looked at your WaPo link: "Donald Trump bragged in vulgar terms about kissing, groping and trying to have sex with women during a 2005 conversation caught on a hot microphone...." This does not say "about having kissed...." It does not say he admitted those things. I would want something unequivocal before we put such stuff in the lead.Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:53, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

That's is a classic whitewash edit and it needs to be changed back to the previous, non-deceptive neutral version.- MrX 19:58, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. Nothing about "capacity". – Muboshgu (talk) 20:01, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Am I the only one at Wikipedia who has capacity to quote reliable sources? I did so in my edit summary, and I have done so in this talk page section.Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:04, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Poor Anything. POV tweaks waste a huge amount of editor time and attention "explaining" them to the editor who thought them up in the first place. SPECIFICO talk 20:08, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

"Donald Trump bragged in vulgar terms about kissing, groping and trying to have sex with women during a 2005 conversation caught on a hot microphone...." sounds exactly like he admitted those things, and that's exactly the sort of phrasing Anderson Cooper used when he questioned Trump on it in the last debate. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:11, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Repeating what I already quoted is unconvincing. Saying he bragged "about kissing" can mean he bragged about having done so or that he bragged about his ability to do so. I've already given a reliable source for the latter in my edit summary. Convince me with reliable sources and I will agree with you.Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:14, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

"I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait." -- Donald Trump. How much more clear do you need it to be? – Muboshgu (talk) 20:22, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

That's a primary source since you're quoting Trump directly, BUT I'll agree with you anyway as to kissing. How about groping?Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:24, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

"Grab her by the pussy" sure sounds like that to me, but granted he did keep that part a bit more vague. The stronger case for groping is the allegations of those women. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:31, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

For the time being, I have reverted the capacity stuff. I want to see the full pussy sentence.Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:40, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Okay, as best I can tell, the full pussy material is this: "And when you're a star they let you do it. You can do anything ... Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything." Does anyone seriously think that is an admission of having done that? Suggestive, sure, but suggestive is what braggadocio is all about. Our lead now says he admitted doing it, which seems false to me, like Wikipedia has an axe to grind, or something. Quote me a reliable source that says he admitted grabbing people in that way, and I'll totally agree with you about this point.Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:43, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

The first three I checked out:

• [10]: "Donald Trump was caught bragging about kissing and groping women..."
• [11]: "Donald Trump Brags About Nonconsensually Groping Women In Newly Uncovered Recording"
• [12]: "Donald Trump Caught on Tape Bragging About Groping Women ..."

--Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:00, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

As I asked above, when he bragged about kissing and groping, was he bragging about having done so, or bragging about his ability to do so? That's a big difference. From what I can tell, he bragged about having done so as to kissing, but not groping. Isn't this a lovely discussion? I will have to go in a few minutes.Anythingyouwant (talk) 21:10, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

And as I stated above, he bragged about both, which is supported by the sources listed above. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:16, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Have we got an IDHT issue here? I agree with you (again) that he bragged about both kissing and groping, but to me that could mean he bragged about having done both, or alternatively he bragged about being able to do both, and we ought to say which, so our readers are not misled. As to groping, he said "And when you're a star they let you do it. You can do anything ... Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything." By no stretch is that a clear admission of having done it, but does say he was able to do it (because of his fame).Anythingyouwant (talk) 22:11, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

When numerous reliable sources say that Trump bragged about groping, then we can verifiably say that Trump bragged about groping. Arguing that we can't say that because of some hyper-technical semantic ambiguity has no basis in our policies or guidelines. Besides, newsrooms across the country evidently disagree with you and understand what "bragging about" doing something means. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:20, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Anythingyouwant's points are simple and accuratem I think and, unfortunately Dr. Fleischman's argument is subjective and without any merit whatsoever, I think. There are so many Blp violations the article really should have a NPOV tag on it. KINGOFTO (talk) 04:26, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Appeared to brag

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Saying Trump "appeared to" brag is non-neutral. He bragged, and sources such as the Washington Post article verify this. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:55, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

WaPo says he bragged, but not clearly about "having groped" anyone, as opposed to being able to do so. User:Awilley was entirely correct to insert "appeared". When Trump referred to "pussy" it was very unclear that that was an admission of any sort.Anythingyouwant (talk) 21:02, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Correction: I didn't insert the "appeared to brag" language. It was there before my edit. ~Awilley (talk) 05:54, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I'm having difficulty taking this argument in good faith. The WaPo article reads: "Donald Trump bragged in vulgar terms about kissing, groping and trying to have sex with women..." How can you say this doesn't clearly support the statement that Trump bragged about groping? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:12, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

The entirety of that bus conversation with Billy Bush was bragging that he could get any woman (although he acknowledged there was one he failed to get). – Muboshgu (talk) 21:16, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

I am changing the header level, because it's essentially what I responded to in the last subsection. I am saying that "Trump bragged about groping" is unnecessarily vague, because it could suggest that he bragged about having groped or it could mean he bragged about being able to grope. Got it? The transcript strongly indicates the latter. As Muboshgu just said, the conversation was primarily about what Trump "could" do, not what he "had done". This is a critical distinction, and I have difficulty believing that the distinction is not understood by any other Wikipedia editors. I have to go now for a couple hours. Anythingyouwant (talk) 21:21, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

When secondary sources say Trump bragged about groping, they are saying he bragged about having groped, not about being able to grope. There's nothing ambiguous about that aspect of the English language, despite the fact that you apparently disagree with sources such as the Washington Post article and the others that I listed above. When I brag to folks about editing Wikipedia, it means I edit Wikipedia. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:36, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

When I brag about my inheritance, I'm bragging about something I'm positioned to get, not something I have already. Trump said, "And when you're a star they let you do it. You can do anything ... Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything." You think that's an admission of something he already did?Anythingyouwant (talk) 22:15, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Of course it is. How does he know that "they let you do it," except from experience? He didn't say "I suppose they would let you do it" or "I'm told they will let you do it." He said "And when you're a star they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything." This is very clearly an admission, or boast, that he can in fact do this stuff, and he knows he can because he has done it. That's why virtually all reliable sources, including those cited here by Dr. Fleischman, say he bragged about doing it. And that's what we should say. It would be the worst kind of Original Research for us to overrule all those reliable sources because we THINK he MIGHT have been saying he has the capacity to do it (without explaining how he knows he does, if not from experience). --MelanieN (talk) 00:35, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

I respect your opinion, and I don't even deny that he may well have done some or all of the things he spoke about. At the same time, we all have opinions about what things various types of people can get away with, which does not imply we ourselves have done them. Anyways....Anythingyouwant (talk) 01:05, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

This your edit [13] does not fix "obvious BLP violations" you talked above, but modified text currently under discussion at the RfC. Please do not do it. My very best wishes (talk) 04:36, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

Ridiculous logic, MelanieN. (How does he know that "they let you do it," except from experience?) If I brag that I gave Penelope Cruz a big fat kiss, do you deduce I must therefore have "had the experience"?! I could probably name a *dozen* reasons for him saying what he did, none of them requiring that he "had the experience". (Jesus.) IHTS (talk) 18:37, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Oh, I see. Your defense is that he did say it but he was lying. I suppose that would be in character. --MelanieN (talk) 18:43, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

More illogic from you, MelanieN. (Why is a lie necessitated? It's not. Who are you to say Trump was not pontificating what he *supposed* was true, for him & others blessed w/ star status?) How about some discussion integrity rather than baby babble. p.s. Hey MelaniaN, your behavior here (embarrassing logic, ad hominem sarcastic insult against the subject) makes you kind of unfit for the discussion page of this BLP. IHTS (talk) 02:15, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

So let's see. When he said, declarative sentence, "I just start kissing" women - "I don't even wait" - he was relating it as something he actually does. But when he said, in the next sentence, "You can do anything. Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything," we must not assume he was still talking about things he actually does. We must allow for the possibility that although the first brag was based on experience, the second brag might be based on speculation or what others have told him. If one of us here is using ridiculous logic, I don't believe it is me. In any case, Dr. Fleischman has trumped (sorry) this discussion: Wikipedia isn't saying he actually did grope women - only reporting the indisputable fact that he bragged that he could (because he's a star). --MelanieN (talk) 15:45, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

And yet it would have no bearing on this discussion, which is whether we can say he bragged about groping instead of that he appeared to brag about groping. Regardless of whether his braggadocio was true or false, he still bragged. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 18:57, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

I think the term "bragged" is fine, because reliable sources say that. I would question however the wording "bragged about forcibly kissing and groping women." What he bragged about was that he could touch them without consequences.

Trump: And when you’re a star they let you do it. You can do anything.

Bush: Whatever you want.

Trump: Grab them by the p****. You can do anything.[14]

Not trying to diminish what he said, but it is not properly described.

TFD (talk) 01:59, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Numerous reliable sources say Trump bragged about forcibly kissing and groping women. Including some discussed in this section. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 08:17, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Sexual assault

On "sexual assault": [15], [16], [17], [18], [19].

While the rape accusation was a BLP violation, this is not.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:03, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

Volunteer Marek, why do you support rape-inclusive language instead of more specific language about forcible kissing and groping?Anythingyouwant (talk) 05:06, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

I support using the phrasing used by sources, which is "sexual assault".Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:10, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

Oh, and since, as you clearly realize ("rape-inclusive" (sic)), forcible kissing and groping do in fact constitute sexual assault, your comment above clearly indicates that you realize that "sexual assault" is a valid and well sourced description of the behavior and hence is not a BLP violation.

You can disagree and think that alternative language would be more appropriate but then you need to get consensus on talk, and you should not edit war - by violating 1RR - to enforce your preferred version, and you should definitely not try to WP:GAME policy by invoking BLP.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:14, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

'Brag' implies fact-of and an interpretation of the emotion of the speaker. But he has denied having done it and ... pending something evidential that's just an opinion on the outtake, subject to others too. While one could clely say 'reported as bragging' or 'felt to be bragging' from the cites, it's also 'said to be just locker-room talk', or 'capacity for' and probably a lot of other labels. Go with 'said' or 'talk' and it's conveying a demonstrated fact that the tape gave, or go with second-party voice 'said to be' and it's also demonstratable fact -- but I'd say just go with 'talked'. Done so and expect continued thrashing here .... meh. Markbassett (talk) 21:53, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Volunteer Marek - "sexual assault" is commonly understood to be felony rape. (See m-w or cornell law for definitions, or Texas Penal Code etc) - so would be subject to WP cautions about speaking of felony. Also, the label "sexual misconduct" is a broader one that would apply to the wider set of less-than rape events. Markbassett (talk) 21:57, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

M-W's definition of sexual assault does not refer to rape or felony rape and actually describes the allegations to a T. Please read stuff before you cite it. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:12, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Dr. Fleischman - Should be sorta obvious I had and that's why I mentioned the kinds of sites I'd found 'felony' and 'rape' at via google 'sexual assault'.

• m-w "Definition of sexual assault :illegal sexual contact that usually involves force upon a person without consent or is inflicted upon a person who is incapable of giving consent (as because of age or physical or mental incapacity) or who places the assailant (as a doctor) in a position of trust or authority"
• Cornell 10USC "is guilty of rape and shall be punished as a court-martial may direct. (b)Sexual Assault.—Any person subject to this chapter who— (1) commits a sexual act upon another person by—"
• Texas Penal Code 'causes the penetration of ' details ...

Google for yourself, see if 'rape' comes up; or look at cases within Wikipedia mentioning it other than this one. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 20:55, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

I doubt the average person thinks of federal or state penal codes when they hear the term "sexual assault." Rather, they think of what the word means in normal, lay English, which is fairly represented by the M-W entry cited above. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:00, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Apologized

Saying in the lead section that Trump apologized for his 2005 comments is non-neutral. A variety of sources describe his apology as defensive or a non-apology, and simply saying he apologized implies that he showed some sort of contrition, which is arguable at best. I propose removing this phrase and just starting with "Trump vigorously denied the allegations..." --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:55, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

I disagree. Please quote sources or at least give a link. See this link which contradicts your assertion and shows virtually all sources but NYT reporting apology. Can you please propose rephrasing instead of completely deleting? Thanks.Anythingyouwant (talk) 21:05, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Sigh. Here are a variety of reliable sources that describe Trump's response as either a non-apology or a half-hearted apology: [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] If you don't like those, there are plenty more. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:19, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

(I'm in a waiting room.) Dr. Fleischman, isn't it correct that many sources say it was an apology? So we have a split. And that calls for rephrasing, not deletion. Something like "Trump was at least somewhat apologetic". To my mind, apologies are like denials: it's not good to omit either of them. Also, if I recall correctly, Trump made apologetic remarks about this more than once; at first it was one of those lame "if anyone was offended" apologies, but then it was a clearer blanket apology. If that's correct (as I recall) then no rephrasing is necessary.Anythingyouwant (talk) 21:40, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Right, the way to treat this neutrally would be to say he apologized, but to add that the apology was described by some sources as either a non-apology or a half-hearted apology. But we don't have nearly enough space in the lead section for that. (As I've mentioned elsewhere, I oppose including any material about this controversy in the lead section.) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:52, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Also, FWIW I don't think apologies are like denials at all. You'll rarely see apologies for misconduct (or allegations of misconduct) in lead sections. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:55, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

You seem to have mysteriously overlooked the part of my comment where I said he issued a lame apology and then a non-lame one. Here is the non-lame one: "I'm not proud of it. I apologize to my family. I apologize to the American people. Certainly I'm not proud of it." So your sources criticizing the lame one are no longer pertinent, right? P.S. Here's another one: "I said it, I was wrong, and I apologize."Anythingyouwant (talk) 22:18, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

It's worth adding that Trump's non-apology / half-hearted apology isn't sufficiently important for the lead, given the space limitations. Trump's immediate response to the tape isn't something of more than passing interest to the media, beyond the rare story about Trump's general refusal to acknowledge his mistakes. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:45, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Does this apology even directly state to whom he is apologizing? If not, I don't think it fits the definition. Objective3000 (talk) 22:03, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

• I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that it was not an apology. His exact words were "I'm not proud of it. I apologize to my family. I apologize to the American people. Certainly I'm not proud of it." In what world is that a non-apology? The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 22:12, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

I could be wrong, but I think this is the full quote: "No, I didn’t say that at all. I don’t think you understood what was said. This was locker room talk. I am not proud of it. I apologize to my family, I apologize to the American people. Certainly, I am not proud of it. But this is locker room talk. You know, when we have a world where you have ISIS chopping off heads, where you have them, frankly, drowning people in steel cages, where you have wars and horrible, horrible sights all over and you have so many bad things happening, this is like medieval times. We haven’t seen anything likes this. The carnage all over the world and they look and they see, can you imagine the people that are frankly doing so well against us with ISIS and they look at our country and see what’s going on. Yes, I am very embarrassed by it and I hate it, but it’s locker room talk and it’s one of those things. I will knock the hell out of ISIS. We are going to defeat ISIS. ISIS happened a number of years ago in a vacuum that was left because of bad judgment. And I will tell you, I will take care of ISIS. We need to get on to much more important and bigger things."

I can tell you straight-faced that this is not an apology. Objective3000 (talk) 22:39, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Here's another one:[25]

“ I’ve never said I’m a perfect person nor pretended to be someone that I’m not. I’ve said and done things I regret, and the words released today on this more-than-a-decade-old video are one of them. Anyone who knows me knows these words don’t reflect who I am. I said it, I was wrong, and I apologize. I’ve traveled the country talking about change for America, but my travels have also changed me. I’ve spent time with grieving mothers who’ve lost their children, laid-off workers whose jobs have gone to other countries, and people from all walks of life who just want a better future. I have gotten to know the great people of our country, and I’ve been humbled by the faith they placed in me. I pledge to be a better man tomorrow and will never, ever let you down. Let’s be honest: We’re living in the real world. This is nothing more than a distraction from the important issues we are facing today. We are losing our jobs; we are less safe than we were eight years ago; and Washington is totally broken. Hillary Clinton and her kind have run our country into the ground. I’ve said some foolish things but there's a big difference between the words and actions of other people. Bill Clinton has actually abused women, and Hillary has bullied, attacked, shamed, and intimidated his victims. We will discuss this more in the coming days. See you at the debate on Sunday. ”

Anythingyouwant (talk) 22:53, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

• He aPologized on live TV : ) Somedifferentstuff (talk) 23:21, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Trump apologized for his words and denied ever putting those words into action. Certainly some pro-Clinton journalists have said it is not an apology but Olivia Nuzzi, writing "Donald Trump is sorry if you are offended he joked about sexually assaulting women. But he’s not sorry he said it." says "And some people—even those in the media tasked with reporting accurately on what the nominee says—have been fooled." She then quotes the wording of news reports in BBC, The Washington Times and Bloomberg. I don't know what weight to place on these opinions, but I would imagine not much. Nuzzi btw got her start as an intern for Anthony Weiner, whose (now estranged) wife is Clinton's top aide. TFD (talk) 23:44, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Trumps apologies to his family and to the American people are not worth mention. Lets wait till he apologizes (Redacted) Buster Seven Talk 00:19, 20 October 2016 (UTC) BLP violation redacted by The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 14:02, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

Your assumption is that the claims are true when they have not been proved. We are perfectly happy to accept that Bill Clinton apologized for his inappropriate relations with an intern.[26] We don't qualify that by saying he did not apologize for unproved claims against him. TFD (talk) 02:52, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

Yes, we should say he apologized. He said the words "I apologize", multiple times. Maybe a lot of people thought it was half-hearted or weasely. Maybe we think it wasn't strong enough. Doesn't matter. He apologized, that is a fact, and it should be in the article. --MelanieN (talk) 01:05, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

Also the "vigorously" in "vigorously denied" is an unnecessary adjective which constitutes editorializing.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:34, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

I'm not saying that including that he apologized in the lead is unverifiable. Of course he apologized. I'm saying that (1) it's not sufficiently noteworthy for the lead, and (2) it's not a neutral summary of his response. We could just as well include in our lead section not only that he apologized but also also that (1) many sources described his apology as a non-apology or a half-hearted apology, (2) he said his comments were just "locker room talk" and that Bill Clinton boasted of worse while playing golf, (3) he followed up by bringing four of Bill Clinton's mistresses to the second debate. I don't suppose anyone would support that? </snark> --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:27, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

"Talked" versus "bragged"

Sigh. Now we have editors changing "Trump bragged..." to "Trump talked..." The sources, such as the ones listed in the previous subsections, overwhelmingly say Trump "bragged." This conveys more factual (not opinion) information than "talked." WP:SAY is not applicable here. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:49, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Maybe we should quote directly from a particular source then that uses the word "brag." The media is quite unequivocal in their usage of the word "brag," so maybe it should just be reverted. JasperTECH (talk) 21:56, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Dr. Fleischman - "talked" is a physical fact that the tape conveys. "Brag" is an interpretation, unless one has telepathy, so would have to be second-person voice 'said to be bragging', and also have to reflect that other views have been expressed. Go with 'talked'. Markbassett (talk) 21:59, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

The thing is that the tape also talks about Trump attempting to seduce a married woman, saying he "moved on her very heavily." So it's in the direct context of action - not just talk, which is why almost all news articles (i.e., 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6) say that he was bragging or boasting about being able to kiss and grope women. It's not our responsibility to do original research on it, but there is a solid reason behind why news articles have used that phrasing. JasperTECH (talk) 22:07, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

User:JasperTech Tsk - your opinion on what all the editors thought notwithstanding, a list of 'almost all' sources is describing a second-person item; a tape plus acknowledged by Trump 'talked' ... Different there. Markbassett (talk) 18:27, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

I don't agree with your argument here, MarkBassett. One does not require telepathy to determine if somebody's words or actions can be considered "bragging." It's evident from the context of the conversation that "bragged" is the appropriate term to use. On top of that, if it is being reported on as bragging by all of our sources, then it's our duty not to editorialize them and present the facts as they are. AlexEng^(TALK) 22:12, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

User_talk:AlexEng mmm - again, second-person voice for conveying it as what list of sources said. For example "Washington Post reported the tape of him bragging"1. And note that other sources choice for wording do not say 'brag' and some report Trump as 'not bragging' ... try here. Everyone seems agreed the tape is real, but 'brag' is an interpretation,a "can be considered" as you say, not a demonstrable fact of a physical item nor the only interpretation possible. Markbassett (talk) 18:54, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

I agree with DrFleischman. At least one of the sources cited in the article specifically says "...a video of Trump bragging to “Access Hollywood” host Billy Bush in 2005...". Our sources have widely favored the word "bragged" because that's what Trump's words and tone plainly convey.- MrX 22:02, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

I agree with DrFleischman for the reason articulated by MrX. Neutrality^talk 22:46, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

"Bragging" is so widely used in our sources, I'm surprised there's any discussion. The tape is a primary source; we can't interpret it ourselves, but we can certainly cite what reliable sources say about it. --Pete (talk) 09:58, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

It doesn't take original research to understand that Mr. Trump was bullshitting with Mr. Bush. "bullshit, vb. To lie or exaggerate to." But the Post settled on the term "bragging" instead, and so can we. ("Brag ... usually suggests a less well-founded, more ... exaggerated [variety of] boasting.")

And we can add the qualifying adverb "jokingly", because that's what Trump himself says he was doing: jokingly boasting.

"'This was locker-room banter...,' Trump said in a statement."

banter. "1... Animated joking back and forth <banter between husband and wife>." -- Merriam-Webster Unabridged --Dervorguilla (talk) 10:12, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

It sounds like original research to me. I haven't seen any reliable secondary sources saying that Trump was bullshitting. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:29, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

@DrFleischman: Suppose you took this claim to a journal that publishes original research. Would they laugh in your face because this "original research" is utterly devoid of both originality and research, having been common knowledge in the field since ten years before you were born? --Dervorguilla (talk) 09:55, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Doesn't matter. Adherence to WP:OR doesn't depend on your understanding of the meaning of the words "original" or "research." --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 16:37, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

@DrFleischman: It matters to Wikipedia. See essay WP:SYNTHNOT, § SYNTH is not unpublishably unoriginal:

"When you look at a case of putative SYNTH, apply the following test. Suppose you took this claim to a journal that does publish original research... Would they laugh in your face because your 'original research' is utterly devoid of both originality and research, having been common knowledge in the field since ten years before you were born? If [so], it's not original research..."

I've given a reliable source for the claim about Trump: namely, Trump himself. This is Wikipedia policy (but I'd be happy to double-check with Jimbo). Details at WP:V, § ABOUTSELF:

"Questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves ... so long as the material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim..."

You have yet to tell us why you believe this information is OR. I'm asking that you spell out now -- in plain language -- any reason you would have for reverting the material once it's been added. --Dervorguilla (talk) 00:07, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Because the secondary sources say Trump bragged, and you're relying on your own independent analysis, based on primary sources, to justify why we should say he didn't. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 01:36, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Should the sexual misconduct allegations be moved to another (or new) section?

I recently trimmed down the sexual allegations section under the 2016 presidential race, as MrX suggested. However, it is still a bit larger than the surrounding sections, which might constitute undue weight. The reason I expanded it in the first place was to better support the sentences in the lead paragraph (which most editors have supported including), so shortening it significantly doesn't seem like a good idea.

It seems to me this section could plausibly fit into a different part of the article (like a subsection under other relationships so it doesn't show up in the Table of Contents) without being undue weight. JasperTECH (talk) 03:03, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

My opinion has somewhat changed now. In comparison to the total 2016 election part, it actually doesn't take up that much space. But if anyone has some good reasons in support of my original proposition to share, feel free to ping me here. JasperTECH (talk) 03:09, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

I agree it should be moved to the Personal life section. The video that initiated it was from 2005—way before the campaign—and some of the allegations were also made before the campaign. It seems to me that keeping it under the presidential campaign gives weight to the idea that the allegations are politically motivated, which may not be intended, but some readers will infer. Trump has promised to commence lawsuits after the campaign is over, and he is already being called before court on 16 December over the Jane Doe lawsuit (which also predated the campaign), so these allegations are clearly not just a campaign event. Madshurtie (talk) 11:50, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Heading levels

So Trump's participation in/promotion of American wrestling merits a level 3 heading ("subheading") and therefore gets included in the TOC. We also include a Filmography at subheading level for cameo appearances (nothing substantial in the last 10 years). But major, current, newsworthy items connected with Trump's foray into politics and resultant controversies, positive and negative, merit only level 4 headings ("sub-subheadings") and aren't included in the TOC as a result. Is Trump's flirtation with the WWE really more noteworthy than the Trump–Bush recording controversy or the sexual misconduct allegations? I think not. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 22:56, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

While many may agree with you on principle, the way you have edited the subheadings does not make sense. The sexual assault allegations and the Trump-Bush recording were both events associated with the 2016 Trump presidential campaign. Having them inherit directly from Politics is a non-sequitur. Either they belong in a different section, or they belong under the Presidential Campaign, 2016 heading. AlexEng^(TALK) 01:01, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I do see your main point Bastun, but I don't think that changing the heading level is a good way of resolving the issue for the reasons elaborated above. I'd much prefer to split off the business ventures section into a new article, and then condense what's written here. The article is now 88 kB (14633 words) long, which means it probably needs to be split. [Also, please see my proposal to move the sexual misconduct allegations to another (or new) section.] JasperTECH (talk) 02:53, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

I support JasperTech's proposal in the other talk page discussion to move the allegations to another section. If we move them to the Personal life section, it also resolves Bastun's concerns. Madshurtie (talk) 11:54, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

The allegations are basically the story of the campaign though. I think it should say where it was since you can't really give a detailed account of the campaign without discussing them. Basically they're inseparable at this point, and separating them is not NPOV. Fyddlestix (talk) 13:44, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

@Fyddlestix: I'm not sure treating them as a political event is NPOV. The alleged events would have happened long before the campaign, and some of the allegations surfaced before the campaign. One ongoing legal case predates the post-recording allegations. Hillary Clinton's DoS emails became arguably the story of her campaign, but they are correctly put elsewhere in her biography. Madshurtie (talk) 13:54, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

When the events happened is irrelevant - they've come to public attention during the campaign, and - as hundreds of RS have shown - have had a significant impact on it. It is completely inappropriate to treat them as anything other than a critical - and perhaps the - turning point in the campaign. Fyddlestix (talk) 14:01, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

@Fyddlestix: Whether they are a major newstory of the campaign is not relevant to their general category. Bain Capital is not housed in the 2012 campaign section for Mitt Romney, Reverend Wright is not in the 2008 campaign section for Obama, and the DoS emails are not in the 2016 campaign section for Hillary. This article's Health section is not included in the campaign, even though the information only appeared during the campaign and the campaign appears to be the only reason for its inclusion. Making the misconduct allegations inseparable from the campaign is what Trump affiliates are trying to do, to make the case these are all politically motivated attacks. This seems like POV categorization. Madshurtie (talk) 14:18, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

User:Bastun -- ??? Meh... seems about right Well Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations is the main article for that topic, This is supposed to be the BLP article of his whole life, of which this maybe just a 30-day tempest - or at least no major disruption to him has yet taken place, further results still to come. I'll suggest you look at the TOCs in BLP of more serious and longer cases with impacts like O. J. Simpson or Darren Sharper and compare/contrast to placement in William Clinton where it long ago went on a bit more with results of note (impeachment proceeding, FBI determination, etcetera). For now ... this seems more on the level of the Clinton pre-election rumors writ large. Maybe something might go under <legal proceeding> ... but in this case it feels like part 4.5 under politics is the best place for it in TOC. Markbassett (talk) 03:46, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

PROPOSAL: Vote on an NPOV tag

Someone removed the tag and I think that this talk age discussion shows that the tag is reasonable at this time. So, I propose we vote on whether the Tag can exist at this time on this blp. KINGOFTO (talk) 22:01, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

In the meantime, I will relace the tag and hoe it will be respected for its own integrity. KINGOFTO (talk) 22:19, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

You added a link, not a tag. EvergreenFir (talk) 22:23, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

thanks, I just fixed it KINGOFTO (talk) 22:29, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

King, to impose the {{npov}} tag you need to point to specific neutrality issues that cover substantial portions of the article. The neutrality issues being discussed on this page cover very specific sentences and are already tagged appropriately using {{pov-inline}}. {{pov section}} and {{POV lead}} are also at our disposal, though I don't see a need for them. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:35, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

• (Edit conflict) Remove the tag. Immediately, without waiting for discussion or a "vote". There is nothing on this talk page that suggests or indicates support for a NPOV tag for the entire article. This talk page, and its numerous archives, show multiple people working very hard to keep the article neutral. Tagging the article as NPOV is not only inaccurate, it is an insult. You have offered no evidence or examples of what you think is NPOV. If you think there are particular things or sections that need reworking, say so here and let's work them out. But get rid of the tag. --MelanieN (talk) 22:37, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

• Remove it now. Considering the controversial nature of the article's subject, the bulk of the editors here have followed WP guidelines without displaying a POV. Such a tag on a heavily visited article requires a detailed rationale. Objective3000 (talk) 22:55, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
• I have removed the tag due to all editors besides KINGOFTO opposing it. I agree with the arguments above. JasperTECH (talk) 23:12, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Less than 1 hour??? Give other editors a chance to weigh in. KINGOFTO (talk) 23:50, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

The {{NPOV}} page says, "The purpose of this group of templates is to attract editors with different viewpoints to edit articles that need additional insight. This template should not be used as a badge of shame. Do not use this template to 'warn' readers about the article."

Unless you can point to widespread NPOV problems throughout the article, there is on reason to insert a huge, scary banner for one sentence in the lede paragraph that already has an inline tag. JasperTECH (talk) 00:00, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

(It seems MrX quoted the same thing I did at the same time in the section below.)

Another thing the {{NPOV}} page says is that the tag can be removed if it "is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given." JasperTECH (talk) 00:11, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) There is no reason for this article to have a POV tag. These tags are meant to attract editors to a discussion, not to warn readers. As evidenced by the participation on this page, and the fact that the page is watched by more than 400 editors, a serious discussion about neutral POV concerns will be addressed very quickly.- MrX 23:15, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Looking at section 4.1 above, there is no consensus for saying in the lead " On October 7, a 2005 audio recording surfaced in which Trump bragged about forcibly kissing and groping women"; the groping assertion is extremely biased and synthesis, right? KINGOFTO (talk) 23:43, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure if there is consensus yet, but the material is well sourced. Trump's comments were pretty clear, so I'm not sure why you think referring to "grab them by the pussy" as groping would be extremely biased and synthesis. Perhaps you could explain.- MrX

Per Lead section guidelines: The lead serves as an introduction to the article and a summary of its most important contents. It is not a news-style lead or lede paragraph. The lead is the first part of the article that most people will read. Compared to most of the controversial political sections dealing with real issues, the sex section is relatively small. And the fact that there is a non-disputed inline tag in the lead claiming a NPOV issue, would mean it should not be in the lead per BLP. --Light show (talk) 00:31, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Let's keep this section about whether or not a POV tag should be added at the top of the article, and add any opinions about specific statements to the RfC above. JasperTECH (talk) 00:58, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

The "grab them by the pussy" reference is being misrepresented in this discussion because there are many RS references which show the context of that phrase and the reality that it was clearly a hypothetical, not a statement of his personal history. Also, Light show's point is related, I think.KINGOFTO (talk) 14:17, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

KINGOFTO, now we're getting somewhere. Would you please link to some of these sources that say Trump's comments were clearly hypothetical?- MrX 12:51, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

KINGOFTO - Well, sure of course this article has POV issues, sometimes multiple new ones in a single day. Self-evident there are POV disputes here, and that resolution is ummm not keeping up with creations. Suggest for simplicity just admit it's ongoing and put a tag up until at least Nov. 9 -- the POV issue du jour is in such flux and reappearing so just might as well face that things are not going to get resolved in the next 8 days. Markbassett (talk) 23:21, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

Respect for the tag

What is the rationale for removing the tag? The tag itself sets specific limits on when it can be removed, and I do not see where editors here are adhering to those limits? KINGOFTO (talk) 23:48, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

The purpose of this group of templates is to attract editors with different viewpoints to edit articles that need additional insight. This template should not be used as a badge of shame. Do not use this template to "warn" readers about the article. Since there is now a discussion (right here), there is no need for the tag.- MrX 23:56, 27 October 2016 (UTC),

I do not mean it as a badge of shame or warning, I think the article throughout has NPOV issues. I mention 1 such issue above re: the "groping" as a statement of fact, which I think is a huge rationale as it certainly is a sexual assault crime and an enormous condemnation of the behavior of the Subject.KINGOFTO (talk) 14:27, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

It is on you to provide a rationale for tagging an article. Objective3000 (talk) 00:00, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

I will provide a complete list of NPOV infractions, imo, later on, but for now, I think the groping statement in the lead is more than enough to have the lead, at least, tagged.KINGOFTO (talk) 14:27, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

And I am pretty sure any of the infractions I may list have already been noticed and discussed so I am not sure where that leaves us. KINGOFTO (talk) 14:28, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

I oppose the {{POV}} tag. An article-level tag is only for problems that affect a significant portion of the article and are not already tagged. I'm not aware of such problems. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:16, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

The in-line NPOV tag

There is a non-disputed inline tag in the lead claiming a NPOV issue, which means the tagged text should not be in the lead per BLP. Per Lead section guidelines: The lead serves as an introduction to the article and a summary of its most important contents. It is not a news-style lead or lede paragraph. The lead is the first part of the article that most people will read.

So isn't this an either-or situation? Either the tagged text is removed or the tag itself should be removed. However, no one has claimed that the tag is wrong, which is why it's still there.--Light show (talk) 01:34, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

You say it shouldn't be there "per BLP," but I'm not seeing anything from those pages that backs up that claim. The BLP page says that unsourced material must be removed immediately. This is not an issue of poorly sourced claims, but whether it constitutes undue weight. The sentence you quoted doesn't support the argument that the text should be removed during the pending RfC. I'm not saying that argument is wrong, but that the BLP and lead section guidelines you cited don't seem to support it.

By the way, the sentences on the allegations have been toned down considerably, and haven't been removed for a while. That suggests most editors don't believe it constitutes a violation of policy to leave it there during the ongoing RfC, even if some of them would ultimately like for it to be removed depending on whether the RfC supports that. JasperTECH (talk) 01:54, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Some of the possibly relevant BLP issues could be that Editors must take particular care when adding information about living persons... must be written conservatively and that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives.

Combine those guidelines with the purpose of leads, it's apparent that a sentence like, " On October 7, a 2005 audio recording surfaced in which Trump bragged about forcibly kissing and groping women..." is far from a summary of the article's most important contents. In terms of size alone, the sexual allegations section is tiny compared to the many issue-related sections, although few of those issues are mentioned in the lead. It's obvious, at least to me, that the tagged text in the lead magnifies sensationalist details, and does not fairly summarize the full biography.--Light show (talk) 02:26, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

OK, I did some research myself to try and see if there was anything in the official policies that supported the removal of disputed content during an ongoing RfC - and I did find some interesting things. According to WP:ONUS, "The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content." However, WP:PRESERVE says that "as long as any of the facts or ideas added to an article would belong in the 'finished' article, they should be retained if they meet the three article content retention policies: Neutral point of view (which does not mean no point of view), Verifiability and No original research" - which the allegations certainly do. These two things seem to contradict each other, so now I'm extremely confused. I hear your arguments about undue weight, but that's probably best for the RfC section above. For now, My very best wishes has removed the tag.

Give me a few minutes/hours to try and make sense of this. I suppose you could remove the paragraph if you want, citing WP:ONUS. But then someone else could add it back, claiming WP:PRESERVE. Agh! JasperTECH (talk) 17:47, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

• The "[undue weight? – discuss]" in intro is ridiculous. The tag suppose to initiate discussion, however there is already an RfC above, specifically to discuss the phrase(s) which were tagged. This tag only serves to create disruption, such as this whole discussion about nothing. My very best wishes (talk) 02:53, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

The inline tag is perfectly legitimate, and if the disputed content is to remain in the article while the dispute is pending (something I heartily disagree with), then so should the tag. Your statement that the only purpose of tagging is to "initiate" discussion defies both WP:TAGGING and common sense. Tags serve many legitimate purposes, the most important and obvious one being to alert readers of an existing dispute. Your insistence on removing the tag reinforces the appearance that your goal is to ram your preferred version through, RfC bedamned, and to stifle any discussion about it. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:07, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

The only person who tried to place this tag on the page so far was you and another contributor who acted on your request (according to their edit summary). If there are other people who like you want to place this tag, then OK, let's place it per WP:Consensus. My very best wishes (talk) 17:17, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

The fact that Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi was responding to my request doesn't somehow invalidate their position. And it's pretty clear that Light show supports this tag. There is no consensus to remove the tag, just the insistence of a couple of editors who keep reverting over and over again in violation of arbitration remedies. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:33, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Well, if you reread my comment in that link, I don't actually support the tag, since having the tag implies that the text does not belong in the lead. Nor do I feel that any "disputed content" is the issue. It's that the guidelines for leads are being ignored. --Light show (talk) 17:48, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

This issue (placing a couple of phrases in intro) has been sufficiently advertised already through RfC and on WP:AE. A lot of people commented. Advertising it even more by placing additional tags (probably for people who do not regularly edit on-wiki) does not serve any good purpose.My very best wishes (talk) 17:57, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Dr. Fleischman, and have added the tag back for now. If the material is included, it should at least have a tag to indicate that there is an ongoing discussion about it. JasperTECH (talk) 18:02, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

OK, except that you just violated 1RR rule for the page. My very best wishes (talk) 18:09, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

My apologies - I just self-reverted my addition. JasperTECH (talk) 18:19, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Ok My very best wishes, are you ready to make good on your promise? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 23:03, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Associated Press finding no evidence of sexual assault

I don't think this article [27] is a good source. It's a very short article. It's not a piece of investigative journalism. Its statement is: "There's no proof that Trump sexually assaulted women, but he's been accused of it before." This then becomes "no evidence" in the headline, which has been repeated in the lead and in the body of the article. I think this should be removed. The way it is being used is highly misleading. It sounds as if AP has investigated the claims and found them baseless.--Jack Upland (talk) 05:59, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Quickly remove it. (the author Jeff Horwitz about his own expertise: "I’m a financial and enterprise reporter for the Associated Press in Washington, DC.") --SI 06:43, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

That's exactly why we should use it. Because the writer of "fact check" one can assume is relying on what is reported in the press and therefore per weight we can assume that is how mainstream sources see the facts, while weight only justifies including investigative journalism when it has been covered by other media and the claims have been assessed. It does not matter what the reporter's expertise is, AP has decided his reporting is factual. TFD (talk) 06:48, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

"There's no proof" is a platitude. What we have is a string of allegations that Trump denies. What would "proof" be? Conviction by a court?--Jack Upland (talk) 07:03, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Whether or not something has been proved determines whether people are convicted of offenses, win or lose court cases, how historians describe events and what appears in science textbooks. Of course it is possible that you can know something to be true that has not been proved based on divine revelation, paranormal intuition or clairvoyance, but those are not the standards to information in articles. TFD (talk) 16:07, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

• Remove immediately. Reliability of the "no proof" statement aside, the article is definitely unreliable for the "no evidence" statement in the headline. There is a world of difference between proof and evidence. Of course there's evidence, in the form of statements by the women. Which is all there usually is in claims of sexual assault. Which makes the statement that "there's no proof" completely non-noteworthy, non-neutral, insensitive to the realities of sexual assault, and arguably sexist. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 07:24, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. You put it better than I did.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:27, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

"No proof" is not a platitude. It means that a reasonable person could not conclude that a statement was true based on the evidence available. There is proof otoh that Obama was born in Hawaii, Osama bin Laden was behind 9/11 and Saddam Hussein did not have weapons of mass destruction, although there are tendentious editors who plaque articles related to those subjects who ignore proof. TFD (talk) 07:38, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

It means that a reasonable person could not conclude that a statement was true based on the evidence available. I'm unaware of the AP actually conducting investigations. A "financial and enterprise reporter" examining evidence that you admit is just other press reports, thankfully, is not how proof is determined in any civilised jurisdiction. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 08:30, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

I agree that the material should not be included in the lead, but what happened to WP:V, WP:RS and WP:NOTCENSORED? Politrukki (talk) 10:13, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Good question, Politrukki, and the answer is WP:SKYISBLUE - a reporter from a different field, not in possession of any evidence because it's not his to adjudicate, is not in a position to judge the credibility or veracity of such evidence. And has now been pointed out, the reporter in question was apparently, essentially, "live tweeting" his "fact check." This is not a reliable source for this claim. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 14:21, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Look at the date - this is from Oct 9, and was obviously written/published during the second presidential debate. Given the timing and the brevity of the article, it's obviously an AP reporter doing "live" factchecking during the second debate, which is when Trump first said "no I've never done that" (ie, insisted that his "locker room talk" was "just words"). That is very early days as far as this controversy is concerned, and a lot more accusations and evidence have come to light since then. I would oppose using it because it's badly out of date, and because the actual news reports and feature articles cited in the article obviously trump this kind of "live," on the fly reporting. Fyddlestix (talk) 13:49, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Fyddlestix. Based on the date it does not take into account the more than 15 statements by women accusing Trump of sexual misconduct. It is a statement that on the night of the second debate there was no evidence. Now there is and the AP quote should be removed. Gaas99 (talk) 20:46, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

@Schmarrnintelligenz and Bastun: The AP has published 24 stories under the reporter's byline. All 24 are about Trump. Topics include assault, lawsuits, and fraud-

Horwitz & Day, "Sexual Assault Victim Critical of Clinton Paid by Trump Ally" (Oct. 10)

Day & Horwitz, "Trump Has Turned Over Tax Returns — for Lawsuits and Loans" (Sept. 28)

Biesecker & Horwitz, "Lawsuit: Trump's NC Campaign Director Pointed Gun at Aide" (Aug. 11)

Horwitz et al., "Florida AG Asked Trump for Donation before Nixing Fraud Case" (June 6)

Jeff Horwitz profile, Associated Press. --Dervorguilla (talk) 00:29, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

@DrFleischman and Fyddlestix:

• The author of that AP story does recommend against drawing conclusions based solely on a headline. (A headline sometimes isn't worded as well as the story it's attached to.)
• He agrees that there's a distinction between evidence and proof. He agrees that he and the AP are obviously unable to say whether there's any truth to the allegations that have been made against Trump to date (Oct. 28).
• The AP has reported on numerous allegations by women against Trump.

This particular story is as authoritative as any other AP story. --Dervorguilla (talk) 03:11, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

Lead sentences

I changed the first couple of sentences of the lead section. I know this is a hot topic, so I figured I would post here if anyone wants to discuss this. Moxhay (Talk * Contribs) 16:06, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Revert immediately. While I appreciate your good faith contributions, it seems that all you've done is italicized his name (the manual of style recommends bolding), removed his birthdate (which is pretty important for BLP articles), and removed that he was a television producer, despite that being a large part of his life. I've reverted the changes for now because I feel this strongly against accepted norms for BLP articles. JasperTECH (talk) 16:24, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

1RR violation

User:KMilos just violated 1RR [28] [29] - I left a note on his talk page earlier for not providing an edit summary for that first edit. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 18:01, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

@Somedifferentstuff: was the first edit a revert? If not, that's only one revert. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:03, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

They are both technically reverts as there had been "smear campaign" material in the article previously. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 18:04, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Proposal re: "groping"

As editors we need to reflect the content of Reliable Sources. I propose the following:

"Trump was, in 2005, caught on audio tape claiming that, because he was a "star", women allowed him to kiss them and also would allow him, if he chose to, to grab their "pussy"'.

That is an accurate reflection of what he said. What we have now in the lead is an inaccurate and exaggerated reflection. KINGOFTO (talk) 02:41, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

That is not an accurate reflection of what he said. He never said "if he chose to" and he never said "grab their pussy"—he said "grab them by their pussy".- MrX 03:10, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

"I don't even wait. And when you're a star, they let you do it, you can do anything ... grab them by the pussy." does not translate into "Trump bragged about forcibly kissing and groping women,", I can not accept that many editors really believe that the word "forcibly" belongs in there which is why I think we have a real neutrality issue. KINGOFTO (talk) 03:51, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

If the sources say "forcibly" then we use "forcibly".Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:00, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

The word "grab" certainly implies "forcibly" - without the consent of the woman. If she consented, he wouldn't "grab" it, he could feel or caress or (whatever term you want that implies consensuality). Look up the definitions of "grab": "grasp or seize suddenly and roughly"; "to seize suddenly or quickly; snatch; clutch". That's forcible by any interpretation. Also, adding "if he chose to" is putting words in his mouth; his language was a lot more straightforward than that. This kind of change has been discussed above, but the argument that "he SAID he could do it but didn't mean to imply that he actually DID it" has not proven to be convincing. --MelanieN (talk) 06:48, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

There's actually 3 possibilities: (a) he was bragging only that he could do it, (b) he was bragging that he did do it but actually he didn't, or (c) he was bragging about something that he actually did. The conversation doesn't make much sense if you think it's (a).--Jack Upland (talk) 07:15, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

Exactly. "I don't even wait" --> he does (has done) the things he is bragging about. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 08:07, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

He clearly stated that he DOES kiss women right away, as soon as he meets them. In the very next sentence he said women "let you" grab them by the pussy if you are a star. The notion that he switched in mid-brag from talking about things he admittedly DOES do, to talking about things he THINKS HE MIGHT be able to do, stretches credibility to the limit. --MelanieN (talk) 20:39, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Clear your heads. He never confessed to grabbing anything. He boasted he could do so if he wanted to, based on his star status. IHTS (talk) 09:12, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

Would you mind producing a couple of reliable sources that support such an interpretation? Thanks.- MrX 12:12, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

I suggest we rely on the full transcript on the tape itself and not on "interpretations" from sources which themselves are clearly biased exaggerations of Trump's literal words, indicating what they think Trump meant. This is a major BLP issue and we need to be very careful to not unfairly malign Trump or participate in a sort of pile-on along with politically-hostile media sources. Trump's literal words amount to an admission that he would spontaneously kiss women without asking their permission -- a fair wording is nonconsensually, but not forcibly. He also stated that women "let" stars or celebrities "grab" their genitals. He did not explicitly refer to himself in first person terms on that. In any event, we can find many uses of the word "grab" occurring in sexual contexts that clearly do not refer to forcible or nonconsensual sex. An aside: I am writing from France and understand well that US media is monopolized and in this election displays a bias against Donald Trump. That said: Repeating subjective interpretations of the tape's content rather than the literal content of the tape itself does poor service to readers of this site.

According to WP:BLP:

Biographies of living persons ("BLPs") must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives; the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment. This policy applies to any living person mentioned in a BLP, whether or not that person is the subject of the article, and to material about living persons in other articles and on other pages, including talk pages. The burden of evidence rests with the editor who adds or restores material.

The strictest caution must be applied to this article and I feel editors with political bias against Donald Trump are not exercising that level of care here. Adlerschloß (talk) 15:54, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

Actually, interpretation of the tape are what we should be using, almost exclusively. See WP:SECONDARY and WP:PRIMARY. Policy: Wikipedia articles usually rely on material from reliable secondary sources. Articles may make an analytic, evaluative, interpretive, or synthetic claim only if that has been published by a reliable secondary source.- MrX 16:15, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

From WP:NOR

Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources.

The present wording in the article's lead is an improvement but still insinuates a subjective interpretation of the primary source. And secondary sources have reprinted the primary full transcript of the tape outright. Adlerschloß (talk) 20:48, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

The only way we could use the primary source (the transcript) is to quote the entire transcript which is not practical, especially in the lead. The content in the lead should be based on a few impeccable sources and should include their analysis. Here are a few: [30][31][32][33]. Common themes in these sources: lewd, vulgar, bragged, groped, kissed, etc..- MrX 21:29, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

The tape would appear to indicate that he thinks women allow him to do this. In no way can we suggest that women actually are okay with this. Objective3000 (talk) 12:24, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

No. But we can certainly indicate that he SAID women are okay with this. Because he did, explicitly. "They let you, because you're a star." --MelanieN (talk) 20:44, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Here's what happens when you try to insert "controversial" BLP stuff[34]. "Nope". That the "GTBTP" thing is in the lede of this BLP article speaks to the tremendously biased and unencyclopedic editing here. Very sad. Doc talk 12:24, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

Go make that argument at talk:Hillary Clinton if you like, but I recommend keeping your theories about bias and injustice to yourself, lest you become sadder by the realization that over-the-top rhetoric is rarely persuasive..- MrX 17:48, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

I think we should be focusing on what reliable secondary sources are saying he said, and not on our own original analyses. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:27, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

User:DrFleischman When that presents only a single position, or states it in WP-voice as a fact rather than as second-person POV, it fails WP:NPOV "representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views". See also the WP:BLP guidance, including the Adlerschloß quore above about conservative language and not being a tabloid, or see WP:BLPGOSSIP and WP:PUBLICFIGURE examples that would lead one to avoid the "messy" words and be careful to say "alleged" and to also report any denials. Markbassett (talk) 00:09, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Tell me, then, what are all of the significant views--as supported by reliable secondary sources? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:32, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

It seems to me like there wouldn't be any disputes over neutrality if such sentences were taken from reliable sources and not tweaked around to fit an agenda. Although, unless such allegations have been verifiably proven, while such information could certainly remain in the article, perhaps it may not be entirely suited for the article's introduction. –Matthew - (talk) 21:21, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Courtesy post:

sources supporting "being able to"

"Trump said he tried to 'fuck' a married woman and bragged about being able to grope women because of his 'star' status." Diamond, Jeremy. "Trump issues defiant apology for lewd remarks -- then goes on the attack", CNN (October 8, 2016). ".... comments Trump made in a 2005 'Access Hollywood,' where he bragged about being able to force himself on women against their will because of his celebrity." DelReal, Jose and Johnson, Jenna. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/10/22/trump-threatening-nearly-one-dozen-sexual-assault-accusers-vows-to-sue/ "Trump, threatening nearly a dozen sexual assault accusers, vows to sue"], Washington Post (October 22, 2016). "a leaked hot mic conversation in which the Republican nominee bragged about being able to touch women because he is a 'star.'" Diaz, Daniella. "Trump: Clinton is behind sexual assault allegations", CNN (October 19, 2016). "Trump bragged about being able to grope and kiss women" Diamond, Jeremy. "Trump: I'd 'love' to fight Biden", CNN (October 26, 2016). "he bragged about being able to grope women because he is a celebrity" Diaz, Daniella. [http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/28/politics/joe-biden-anthony-weiner-emails-hillary-clinton/ "Biden on Weiner: 'I'm not a big fan'"], CNN (October 29, 2016). "The leak of a 2005 hot-mic video two days before the second debate in which Trump bragged about being able to grope women led to Clinton’s biggest single-day gain of the past four weeks." Tartar, Andre and Tioruririne, Adam. "Trump, Clinton Double Down on Their Strategies: Final Debate By the Numbers", Bloomberg News (October 20, 2016). "remarks Trump made in a leaked 2005 conversation, in which he bragged about being able to grope women because of his fame." "Retired Military Officials Condemn Donald Trump Over Issue of Sexual Assault", Fortune (October 18, 2016). "last week’s release of a 2005 video in which he bragged about being able to exploit women sexually." Langley, Monica. [http://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-angrily-denies-allegations-of-groping-points-finger-at-media-and-clinton-campaign-1476384833 "Donald Trump Prepares New Attack on Media, Clinton"], Wall Street Journal (October 13, 2016). "Trump bragged about being able to grope and otherwise touch women without consent or consequences." Lesniewski, Niels. "Heck Hopes to Mimic Reid in Nevada But for GOP", Roll Call (October 15, 2016). "he bragged about being able to 'do anything' to women 'when you're a star,' including 'grab them' by the genitals" Jaffa, Alexandra and Gutters, Hasani. "Rudy Giuliani on Donald Trump's Crass Comments: 'Both Sides Have Sinned'", NBC News (October 9, 2016). The accusations come after the release of a 2005 tape earlier this month in which Trump bragged about being able to grope or kiss women due to because he was a celebrity. Savransky, Rebecca. "Trump: 'Nothing ever happened' with accusers", The Hill (newspaper) (October 15, 2016).

Thanks for your consider. IHTS (talk) 08:16, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Yes. There's also all of these which support the wording currently in the article though. Personally I think the sources I listed have considerably more weight than some of what you've listed here - like rollcall & thehill. My research suggested that most RS don't use the "being able to" phrasing, but rather say that Trump "bragged" about doing the things he talked about. Fyddlestix (talk) 16:08, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Hm. I'm a bit vexed about what to do here. The sources listed by Dervorguilla by and large meet our reliability criteria. So I guess the question is whether they conflict and must be balanced or whether they're technically consistent. I don't have an answer to that. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 16:41, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

List of Neutrality issues

Dr. Fleischman said neutrality issues are required for a POV tag; here are some imo.

1: "Many of his statements in interviews, on Twitter, and at campaign rallies have been controversial or false" The inclusion of the word "false" is obviously not neutral

2: "audio recording surfaced in which Trump bragged about forcibly kissing and groping women" the recording does not have Trump saying he "forcibly" did anything nor that he actually groped women. the recording said that because he was a star, women allowed him to kiss them and that he could grope them if he chose to.

3:"A subsequent analysis by The Washington Post, whose reporters were denied press credentials by the Trump presidential campaign, concluded that "Trump is a mix of braggadocio, business failures, and real success."[34]" an obvious neutrality issue: This statement infers a retaliatory analysis and adds nothing to the BLP

4"Trump's candidacy has been described as something around which the alt-right movement has coalesced,[259] together with its opposition to multiculturalism and immigration.[260][261]" Another neutrality issue

5 "at least 15 women[384] came forward with new accounts of sexual misconduct including unwanted kissing and groping" the word "accounts" infers not debatable...the word "claimed" should be used

6:Immigration policies The section is not about immigration, it is about illegal immigration and the misrepresentation of that is a major neutrality issue.

7:"He repeated a National Enquirer allegation that Rafael Cruz, father of Ted Cruz, may have been involved in the assassination of John F. Kennedy" The source says "linking Cruz’s father to the man who shot President John F. Kennedy and in no way says his father "may have been involved in the assassination" KINGOFTO (talk) 03:41, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

On the first one, there was a HUUUUGGGEEEE RfC about that [35]. So that's not going to fly.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:56, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

Second one is based on reliable sources and has also been discussed to death.

Third, fourth are just your basic WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT. This is well sourced and attributed. You can't just call something you don't like "a neutrality issue". You have to show that it is not based on sources or that it misrepresents sources.

Actually the same thing for five, six and seven. You are mistaking your own opinions for "neutrality". Bring sources to the table and arguments grounded in policy or the tag is spurious.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:59, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

And oh yeah, there's a big ol' notice at the top of the article when you click edit which says:

" Firm consensus is needed to re-install a POV tag atop this article per discretionary sanctions. Please consider proposing it at the talk page, or getting attention of further editors other ways, like using an RFC or a section tag or an inline tag."

Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:06, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

1. Trump is actually known for using a much larger percentage of false statements, as independently examined by fact-checkers, than most other politicians. These are three references cited by the article: [36][37][38]. All these false statements are a big reason why he has received so much free media attention, which is also described by the article.
2. This has now been changed to nonconsensually, which I think solves this problem.
3. I just changed this to opined.
4. This is just true. Check out the sources. I think white-supremacists could rightly be called the alt-right. However, if you can think of better phrasing, go ahead and improve it.
5. I altered this as well from claims to allegations.
6. It shouldn't be titled Illegal immigration policies. That would be long and probably even more biased. It's in line with how other politicians' policies are described.
7. The definition of the word "link" is "a relationship between two things or situations." I don't see how this is misconstruing the sources.

Thanks for bringing these up. The article will be better as a result. The NPOV tag, however, should not be reinstated. JasperTECH (talk) 14:33, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

On 2, sources actually use the word "forcibly" [39] so we should follow the sources on this.

I also changed "alleged" back to "accused" for the same reason.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:17, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

That's swell, but @Volunteer Marek, Fyddlestix, and Nomoskedasticity: do you understand that headlines are not reliable sources? Politrukki (talk) 22:53, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

One of the accusers did say that he "forced" his tongue down her throat [40].Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:52, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

Who said otherwise? The exact same wording appears in lots of sources:

Sources that say "forcibly"

Molly Redden, "Donald Trump 'grabbed me and went for the lips', says new accuser," The Guardian, October 16, 2016. "On its release, the tape quickly unleashed a cascade of accusations from women who have said Trump forcibly kissed or groped them, or reached under their clothing without asking." Kurtis Lee, "Another woman alleges Donald Trump grabbed and kissed her," Los Angeles Times October 15, 2016. "Heller is the ninth woman to come forward in the past week with allegations that Trump groped or forcibly kissed them before he ran for president last year." Harriet Agerholm, "Donald Trump sex claims: Porn star Jessica Drake becomes 11th woman to accuse Republican of unwanted advances," The Independent, 23 October 2016. "The porn star and sex educator is one of at least 11 women to make claims that the Republican nominee groped them, forcibly kissed them or made inappropriate remarks." Trip Gabriel, "Abandoning Donald Trump and, for Some Women, the G.O.P., Too," The New York Times, October 27, 2016. "Increasing numbers of Republican women have turned on their party’s male leaders for defending Mr. Trump against accusations that he groped or forcibly kissed more than 10 women." Amanda Sakuma, "Donald Trump Surrogates Have Their Own Baggage With Women Voters" NBC News, October 26, 2016. "newly unearthed audio recordings showed Trump bragging about forcibly kissing women and grabbing them by the genitals." "US presidential debate recap: Polls split on whether Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton won poisonous argument," The Telegraph', 13 October 2016. "In what was one of the most negative and acrimonious debates in US presidential history, it was a matter of minutes before the lewd tape, in which Mr Trump brags about "grabbing p----" and forcibly kissing women, was brought up." Jonathan Easeley, "'We Have Substantial Evidence of Lies': Trump Lashes Out At His Accusers, the Media," Fox News, October 13, 2016. "In reports and first-person accounts recorded in The New York Times, People magazine and The Palm Beach Post, four women have accused Trump, the Republican presidential nominee, of forcibly kissing them or aggressively touching them against their will." Tracy Jan, "More women accuse Trump of aggressive sexual behavior," Boston Globe, October 14, 2016. "Trump has been confronted with a slew of allegations of sexual misconduct over the past week, starting with a Washington Post report of a 2005 tape featuring him bragging about forcibly kissing women and grabbing them by the genitals." Nolan D. McCaskill, "More Trump accusers come forward," Politico, October 14, 2016. "the real estate mogul can be heard boasting about forcibly kissing and groping women with impunity because he’s “a star." Joyce Chen, "Donald Trump’s Vice Presidential Running Mate, Mike Pence, Is ‘Offended’ by Candidate’s Comments About Nancy O'Dell," US Weekly, October 8, 2016. "Trump issued a video statement on his Twitter account late Friday evening in response to the footage, which shows him bragging to former Access Hollywood host Billy Bush about forcibly kissing and groping women." Monica Langley, "Donald Trump’s New Attack Strategy: Curb Clinton Vote," Wall Street Journal, October 11, 2016. "on Friday, all attention turned to the video of Mr. Trump’s talking about groping women’s genitals and forcibly kissing women."

Just a selection for y'all to read (there's lots more). The foot-dragging on this is getting pretty tiresome. Fyddlestix (talk) 00:54, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Who said otherwise? With respect, I think you did it implicitly when you reinstated unsourced content (while removing another piece of unsourced content). Since Volunteer Marek's edit summary said "since sources actually use the terms "forcibly" and "accused" not "non-consensual", I assume the only purpose they added WaPo source was because they wanted to use word "forcibly". One would expect to find word "forcibly" in the WaPo article, but I did not find it, hence I made a technical edit in order to enforce WP:V. It would be okay for an editor to say that they are paraphrasing this and this source; then we could discuss how faithful to the source that paraphrase is. I'm not saying that we must use the exact words our sources use – sometimes it's the best course of action, sometimes it isn't – but it's a whole different matter to imply that we use the exact wording when we don't.
How many of those sources are cited in our article? I can't find a policy that says we can cite a source without citing it. If there are sources that you think are representative of population, go ahead and cite them using inline citations. If "forcibly kissed" is properly cited, I see no reason to object that wording, at this point. Politrukki (talk) 13:37, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

@Politrukki: Correct. "The word 'source' in Wikipedia has three meanings: ... [2nd of 3] The creator of the work (for example, the writer)." WP:V. Here, the "source" of the headline -- its creator -- is some anonymous headline-writer. As a courtesy to the cited source (meaning, the article writer), we ought to use his terminology, not the headline-writer's. --Dervorguilla (talk) 01:05, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict)@Volunteer Marek, Fyddlestix, and Nomoskedasticity: As far as I can tell, I hold the same vision of this article as you do, but I'm just striving to find a middle ground that will convince the group of editors who don't want this statement in the lead at all to change their minds. Having a concise, neutral statement is a good start.

All in all, it's not a huge deal whether the article says "forcibly" or "nonconsensually," or whether it says "allegations" or "accusations." One of each word is used verbatim by the sources we cite, while the other ones sound softer and less editorialized while conveying the same meaning. Some editors may see the mainstream media as liberally biased - read this Wikipedia article for more information. If that's somewhat true, then we follow the policies for biased sources. WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV says: "Another approach [besides in-text attribution] is to specify or substantiate the statement, by giving those details that actually are factual."

It's not necessary to write statements that use the exact words our sources use, as long as whatever words we use instead have the same meanings. JasperTECH (talk) 01:14, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

@Volunteer Marek and JasperTech: Given all the controversy about this claim, I think it would be helpful to include the original language in a ref quote to facilitate verification. I've accordingly added a second citation with a short ref quote. --Dervorguilla (talk) 02:48, 30 October 2016 (UTC) 05:14, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

I strongly endorse this. Verification was the sole reason I included inflated (I expected them be shrunk later, but I should have prepared for an emergency landing) quotations in |quote= parameter. I also explicitly endorse using citations, i.e. <ref> tags, in the lead at least until there is consensus on the wording per WP:V ("All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation that directly supports the material."), and per WP:LEADCITE ("Any statements about living persons that are challenged or likely to be challenged must have an inline citation every time they are mentioned, including within the lead. ... The necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus. Complex, current, or controversial subjects may require many citations; others, few or none.")
If citations should be omitted per WP:LEADCITE, we must not forget that the lead should summarize the body. If there's a great discrepancy between the lead and body, something is wrong. Politrukki (talk) 13:37, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Fyddlestix has amply demonstrated that sources say "forcibly", and so should we. The same applies to "bragging" (see #"Talked" versus "bragged". It's getting a little tiresome seeing editors who don't grasp our policies or basic research skills, trying to scrub the meaning from a set of simple facts that have been widely reported. I agree that using direct quotes of the sources in the citation template is a good idea for verification. I also have no objection to including footnote citations in the lead as needed.- MrX 14:14, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps I've misinterpreted the amount of debate happening about inclusion of the sentences. If the majority of editors are fine with using the words the sources do, then I'm not going to complain. The inline citations are excellent - thanks Fyddlestix and Dervorguilla! JasperTECH (talk) 15:31, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

I'm fine with paraphrasing, as long as we use words with the same meaning. For example instead of "bragged" we can use "boasted"; we should not use "talked" because they don't mean the same thing. I'm less concerned about "forcibly". I could live with substituting "without permission" (or consent).- MrX 15:54, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

"Thanks for conforming to the cited source" would have sufficed (I'm referring to your bizarre {{fv}} tag here). I'm truly sorry that I missed your comment "At least one of the sources cited in the article specifically says "...a video of Trump bragging to “Access Hollywood” host Billy Bush in 2005..."" above. Had I noticed that, I would have, of course, cited this source for "bragged", and another WaPo source (which says "can be heard making vulgar comments" instead of "bragging") for "without their consent".
Fyddlestix has amply demonstrated that sources say "forcibly" – I agree and I thank for citing them in the article. We don't know if "forcibly" is what majority of sources use – proving that would require more than basic research – but if anyone objects "forcing", they should bring another set of sources that use different wording.
I hope you, and everybody else who is involved, noticed that you reverted many constructive edits – including all, I assume, Dervorguilla's edits. Politrukki (talk) 19:55, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Correct; the others being DigbyDalton's (Oct. 30) and Charlesaaronthompson's (Oct. 30). --Dervorguilla (talk) 09:01, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

KINGOFTO, if you have issues with the neutrality of specific language, then tag those sentences with {{pov-inline}} and start a new discussion for each one. Some arguably non-neutral language here and there isn't a basis for an article-level POV tag. Also, as other folks have mentioned, some of these issues have already been discussed at length and resolved here on the talk page. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:15, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

-Dr. Fleischman - no, no User:KINGOFTO should put in the tag per guidance that it is the appropriate thing for this situation. (And then others should follow the guidance in the tag that says 'do not remove). Putting in 7 (and then more...) tags all over is not a substitute for it and seems not better anyway. Just kind of proves the point and justifies an overall tag. We've gotten POV issue du jour (or multiples du jour) for weeks now, simpler to just put the notice up there and leave it. (Maybe after 9 November ... or maybe not) Markbassett (talk) 00:21, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Volunteer Marek - You seem missing the text of the POV tag, and the enclosed links for conduct. Relooking at your inputs for User:KINGOFTO list I note you are proving his point it deserves a tag.

1: "HUUUUGGGEEEE RfC about that [41]" ... kind of proves his point there are 20 editors in dispute with the word 2. 'Forcibly' is still in dispute, and "based on" reliable sources sounds a bit like OR rather than NPOV conveying all POVs. 3. WaPo indignation ... Rather than WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT, he seems correct - this is a single offended party, not meeting 'independant' and not wide ... and I'll add what the heck is significant enough to his life to make that worth a BLP inclusion ? 4. How candidacy described - not WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT if it's the only POV being presented ... and again, editor dispute is what the POV tag says. 5, 6, 7 - OK you oppose him, citing opinion difference... demonstrating again POV dispute

Finally you said 'there's a big ol' notice at the top of the article when you click edit which says: Firm consensus is needed to re-install a POV tag' Umm -- not really so big or at top as the boxes, it's an embedded comment lost amidst the page ... and unattributed so why/who or what ... not referenced in the Talk header either so ???? Effectively never gonna get consensus for this either so ???? Seems a circular argument.

CHeers Markbassett (talk) 00:53, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

What does "you seem missing the text of the POV tag" mean? Anyway, there's a specific injunction in the article to NOT put in the tag without consensus. That's really there's to it.

1. Yeah, but we abide by RfC, even if some editors don't like it. This is NOT how this works: "I didn't get my way in an RfC so I'll put in a NPOV tag in the article". Come on, seriously?

2. Yeah and you need consensus to put the tag in. Anything what so ever can easily be made "in dispute" by tendentious editors with enough time on their hands.

3. No.

4. No.

5. No

Basically WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT is exactly what you're doing. And saying "it's disputed" is NOT... not not not not not, a sufficient justification for the tag. You need to articulate it, not just "well I disagree".Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:00, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

• As the [neutrality is disputed]-tag has been reverted into the lede I would like to ask where is the consensus about having that tag? --SI 16:02, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Above DrFleischman states -- if you have issues with the neutrality of specific language, then tag those sentences

It seems that there is consensus a dispute is ongoing (and participation in that dispute amounts to a de facto admission of that dispute), but lack of consensus about whether an article-wide tag is appropriate in this context. There is clearly no consensus for the language in question itself, and many editors have raised concerns that it violates BLP policy, especially that in cases like this we need to use the most conservative language possible. If some editors are unwilling to reach a consensus phrasing, working in everyone's legitimate concerns especially as related to BLP, it would seem tagging the dispute is the only appropriate measure at this time to avoid persistent edit-warring in which each "side" continues to insert its preferred wording into the article. Adlerschloß (talk) 17:08, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Adlerschloß and have replaced the tag....not a badge of shame...not a warning...just a tag which, if not applicable here, then where? KINGOFTO (talk) 23:03, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

• Adding a POV tag to the entire article is way out of line. Work on the specific issues. The article itself as a whole is not in dispute. To be clear: There is no consensus to POV tag the entire article. In fact there is a strong consensus not to. Adding disputed material against consensus can be a blockable offense per the Discretionary Sanctions. --MelanieN (talk) 23:30, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

To be clear, in my above statement I meant to advocate for an inline tag (which I had recently added), in case my statement that there was no consensus for an article-wide tag did not make that clear in context. The differing sides on this dispute have each argued in support of an inline tag, which seems closest we'll to consensus until there is more willingness for compromise on the questionable phrasing in question (which itself in present form lacks consensus). Adlerschloß (talk) 15:24, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Alcohol

The section about health says he doesn't drink alcohol. I'm pretty sure I've seen him drink wine in The Apprentice, but I'm not going to suffer through watching it again to find which episode it was. PizzaMan (♨♨) 08:10, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Maybe it was non-alcoholic. The reliable sources all say he doesn't drink, and I could find nothing online about him drinking wine in The Apprentice. Even if you found it, it would be original research. Worthy of mentioning to a reporter maybe, but not of posting on Wikipedia. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:19, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

TOC Limit 3

I don't think this limit of TOC to 3 levels [42] is good.

This is a complicated article with lots of details. A detailed TOC, like a good introduction, makes it easier to figure out what the article covers.

The TOC limit 3 makes it difficult for the reader to figure out what's covered by the article. For example, it makes it harder to find "Sexual misconduct allegations". A bare mention of "Political positions" doesn't tell the reader that the entry deals with social issues, economic issues, healthcare issues, etc.

In contrast, the Business Career section outlines all of his businesses.

Is there anybody else here who would like to revert it? --Nbauman (talk) 20:24, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. I took it out earlier but it got reverted. I think I'm allowed to revert that under 1RR? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 21:05, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Yes. The rule is, "one revert per editor per article per 24-hour period". You last edited the page on 12:27, 30 October 2016‎, so you can revert again after 12:27, 31 October 2016‎. It's 05:27, 31 October 2016 now, so you can revert.

User:JFG is welcome to argue for his edit in Talk, but if he changes it without discussion, I'll revert it. --Nbauman (talk) 05:28, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

The TOC limit of 3 was longstanding until Bastun removed it yesterday. I reverted this out of usability reasons, because the expanded TOC would cover more than one screenful on a typical laptop screen. I hear the argument that a lot of relevant content is hidden in subsections but the lead is already an accurate summary of such contents, including controversial stuff; I see no pressing need to bludgeon the TOC. Now under DS per the edit notice, you must not reinstate any challenged (via reversion) edits without obtaining consensus on the talk page. As I reverted your change to a longstanding situation, the onus is on you to obtain consensus for an expanded TOC. — JFG ^talk 05:52, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

Usability is an issue, true, but is that much of one? One or two swipes of a mousepad or mousewheel or a press or two of the PageDn key and you're there. Compare to the usability issued raised by hiding main topics - people visiting this page are probably a lot more interested in the current allegations facing Trump rather than his flirtation with professional wrestling some years ago. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 20:31, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

As I said, with the TOC limits, the "Sexual misconduct allegations" became invisible. They weren't mentioned in the introductory summary either. (I'd have to check, but I think that when people tried to include them in the summary, some people objected and defeated that edit too.) When I read a page, I assume that I can get a good idea of the contents by reading the summary and the TOC, and I think other readers would too. Now they can't. There's no hint that the article deals with sexual misconduct allegations. Can you address that problem? --Nbauman (talk) 20:56, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

The TOC limit was in place in March 2016, several months before the sexual misconduct allegations emerged. Those are unrelated developments of the article. Besides, TOC placement of this section was discussed earlier at #Heading levels (question raised by Bastun as well), to no effect. — JFG ^talk 09:36, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

I think the discussion at #Heading levels still stands and was not resolved. First you claim that the sexual allegations are part of the campaign, and should be subheads of the campaign; then you claim that the outline is too difficult to read because it has too many subheads so you eliminate the subheads. You claim that the sexual allegations were not a major issue. Now they are a major issue. The TOC is organized in such a way as to hide them in the body of the text. Headling level 3 manages to obscure the sexual allegations. Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! and I feel that the goal of making the subect accessible to the reader outweighs the problem of limiting it to 1 screen on your laptop. It doesn't fit on 1 screen in other monitors, including mine, anyway.

Why don't you think it's important to make the subject of sexual allegations easy to find in the body? --Nbauman (talk) 14:11, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

@Nbauman: Please read my words again: I don't "claim" anything here about where the sexual allegations should be placed or how much weight they should have; my position on this question is in the relevant RfC. This TOC discussion is not a content dispute between you and me about the sexual allegations, hence I have no answer to "why do I think it's important". I just pointed out that if you want to change the longstanding TOC limit, you must obtain consensus. As you noted yourself, the previous discussion at #Heading levels "was not resolved", i.e. did not show consensus for Bastun's proposal, so the status quo prevailed. — JFG ^talk 18:40, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

User:JFG, So your position is that, when you decide on the TOC level, the question of whether a more detailed TOC would make it easier to read the article doesn't matter, is that correct? --Nbauman (talk) 19:30, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

@Nbauman: No. I didn't "decide" the TOC level; some editor did that 6 months ago and wasn't challenged until Bastun's edit. My position is that changing a longstanding TOC limit in order to emphasize a recently-added controversial topic is a poor attempt to grab readers' attention. Were your premise true (i.e. claiming that somehow the TOC limit was introduced on purpose to hide the groping scandal), I would have supported your position. But it's false, so I don't. — JFG ^talk 20:57, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

I did not say that the TOC limit was introduced on purpose to hide the groping scandal. My position is that, whether or not it is a long-standing TOC limit, the final result is to make it more difficult for the reader to find a topic that many of them are interested in. Do you agree that it would be easier for the reader to find the sexual allegations in the body if it were in the TOC? --Nbauman (talk) 23:04, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

@Nbauman: You wrote: with the TOC limits, the "Sexual misconduct allegations" became invisible. This is wrong; they didn't "become" invisible because of the TOC limit, they always were, by virtue of being written months later. You also wrote: The TOC is organized in such a way as to hide them in the body of the text, implying intent to hide. I say there's no intent to hide anything; there was a long TOC on a {{very long}} article and it was accordingly limited in depth 6 months ago. Recently this groping affair emerged and was placed under the "Presidential campaign" section, so it was not mentioned in the TOC. (Note in passing that contrary to your assertions I was not involved in adding this content or discussing its hierarchical placement.) Now you and Bastun argue that this incident is worth mentioning in the TOC and I argue that the TOC would become unwieldy if we lifted the limit. Clearly I won't convince you and you won't convince me. Unless other editors weigh in strongly one way or another, we should leave the matter to rest. — JFG ^talk 01:24, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

No, you're putting words in my mouth. I said that the sexual misconduct allegations became invisible when you reverted Bastun's change. There may not have been an intent to hide, but it had that effect. The TOC limit 3 may have been acceptable when it was first included, when the article was simpler, but now as the article has grown more complex, the TOC limit 3 is no longer acceptable because it has the effect of obscuring important issues, like the sexual misconduct allegations. Because the article is more complex, we should have a more detailed TOC to help readers get through it.

I don't know that we do have consensus to keep TOC limit 3. Bastun and I want to expand it, you want to keep it. Consensus isn't a vote; you have to give reasons. You can't just arbitrarily vote no because you don't like it. I'm trying to figure out your objection so I can answer it, and I would like you to give me an answer.

My question, again, is, "Do you agree that it would be easier for the reader to find the sexual allegations in the body if it were in the TOC?" Could you please answer that question? --Nbauman (talk) 19:29, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

See the ArbCom remedies message box near the top of this page, in particular: "Consensus required: All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion)." The edit to change the TOC limit was challenged, and it currently lacks consensus. That is all that matters at this point. If your argument is convincing, it will win consensus and the edit will be reinstated; if not, it won't and it won't. To date, after more than 3 days, I see two editors supporting the change, and that is not a consensus by any measure. User JFG is not required to convince you that you're wrong, and you don't get to declare consensus because they have not satisfied you that they have a viable argument (we don't get to be the arbiters of our own discussions and I'm sure you can see why that could not work). ―Mandruss ☎ 08:34, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Ivana Trump: Donald's Low net-worth at divorce

She mentions it, sotto voce, on Late Night with Conan O'Brien either 8 November 1995 or 26 April 1995Xb2u7Zjzc32 (talk)

Possibly so, but not something that should be added to the article without a lot more coverage. --MelanieN (talk) 15:47, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

Trump email controversy

I believe we should cover the Trump email controversy somewhere in the article. As Newsweek notes, "Trump’s companies have systematically destroyed or hidden thousands of emails, digital records and paper documents demanded in official proceedings, often in defiance of court orders."[43] --Tataral (talk) 20:32, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

That seems pretty big, especially the part about the Hard Rock Casino e-mails. I'd wait a couple of days and see whether/how the rest of the media picks it up. It certainly seems newsworthy to me. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:48, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

@DrFleischman, that's the point, we are NOT the news. If this is the type of horsesh$t that's going to be added to the BIO, its time to lock this down. --Malerooster (talk) 14:59, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

It's from a reliable source. The view that this is "horseshit" is your own. You're welcome to go argue on WP:RSN that Newsweek is "horseshit".Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:01, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

More sources [44], [45], [46], [47] as well as older stories which began just scratching the surface [48], [49].Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:04, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Who the F cares that's its from a reliable source? That doesn't mean automatic inclusion in the article? --Malerooster (talk) 15:06, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

The relevant material [50] has been removed by User:Malerooster with an edit summary ... which is really just one big personal attack. Note that the material is well sourced.Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:39, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

If the shoe fits. --Malerooster (talk) 14:56, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

You might want to read WP:NPA again and note the article is under discretionary sanctions. And what your edit summary shows is that your revert is completely spurious.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:01, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Malerooster, you've been around long enough to know better. The material is reliably sourced, and pertinent to this BLP. Trump has criticised Clinton strongly over email management and now it turns out he's been doing much the same thing for years longer. Trump has made this extra-relevant. --Pete (talk) 15:16, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

@Pete, he's been doing much the same thing for years longer, now that's some serious horsesh#t. --Malerooster (talk) 15:24, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Do you have anything constructive to add to the conversations or are you just going to refer to other users' comments as "horseshit"? Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:26, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Agree with Dr. Fleischman that we should wait and see how the media picks it up. The fact it is sourced is irrelevant, it at also must be significant. Per "Balancing aspects", "discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news." While it is tempting to compare this story to Clinton destroying emails, the difference is Clinton's destroying emails is important because it is part of the narrative about whether or not her use of a private email server violated national security (when she was Secretary of State). The investigation into the alleged security lapse was news for months, while few if any of the cases in which Trump allegedly destroyed emails received any attention. TFD (talk) 15:19, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

I initially thought we should wait also, but now it's has been covered in a few very solid sources (in addition to the ones presented above, there's also Washington Post, NBC News, The Independent, Mic, New York Business Journal), so I think a sentence or two would be appropriate right now, and more can be added as the story develops. What makes it noteworthy is that Trump accused Clinton of the same thing. - MrX 15:46, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Plus the whole "often in defiance of court orders" part. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:13, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Wait. No indication this will be a lasting campaign issue much less a biographical one. James J. Lambden (talk) 16:23, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Wait. If we included every Trump-scandal-of-the-day, the article would be overwhelmed. Wait and see if it becomes more than a 24-hour story, or if it becomes a campaign issue. --MelanieN (talk) 16:59, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

I can't remember any time during this election when something like this blew over, but I guess it's possible. Certainly there's nothing wrong with waiting a day or two to see where this goes.- MrX 17:27, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

This again follows the pattern of: 1) Verified material covered by multiple reliable sources gets added to an article. 2) As it's perceived as being negative to Trump, it gets removed. 3) "Debate" follows, with various policies quoted, but no clear consensus can obviously emerge so partisan editors effectively keep out the negative material prior to the election. I've not checked the equivalent Clinton article, but I'm sure it's talk page doesn't include contributions from the same editors who are here quoting WP:RECENTISM, WP:BALASP and similar, in relation to the latest "FBI investigating Clinton for emails she didn't send" story. I find it hard to believe this is what Arbcom actually intended. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 17:19, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

If you did go to the Clinton talk page, you would then realize your analysis above is horsesh#t. Sorry Volunteer Marek, sh$t is sh&t, and just calling a spade a spade, too bad if you don't like. --Malerooster (talk) 17:27, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Is your i key broke? Maybe you can find a replacement at IKEA.- MrX 17:33, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

I'm in favor of immediate inclusion of this content, now that Volunteer Marek and MrX have provided additional sources. And I think Malerooster's arguments should be disregarded, as repeatedly calling the story "horseshit" with nothing more is classic WP:IDONTLIKEIT. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:44, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Include it. Put it in the LEAD. Idiots. --Malerooster (talk) 19:49, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

@Malerooster: WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:18, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

This is a clear example of recentism. Trump has been headline news every day for over a year, and has been a world famous celebrity for over thirty years. Not every story deserves mention let alone its own section. Generally too, stuff like that should not just pop out but should either be included in a section about his business methods or as part of the specific cases where they arose. It seems like this is an attempt by the DNC to counter the Clinton email scandal, and hence its only relevance is to the campaign articles. But it looks like it's not working, and hence has minimal weight. TFD (talk) 02:51, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

It's not recent. He's been doing this for years. Nor is it confined to one episode - it's obviously something pertinent to the man, rather than just one aspect. --Pete (talk) 03:40, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

No, it's recentism. This article is dominated by editors who are unambiguously anti-Trump. There is zero way around this fact. Doc talk 05:19, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

I agree that a section is undue. But a paragraph is appropriate in my view. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 06:12, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

You sure there's not enough "meat" for its own little article? Like this "encyclopedic" little gem. It could get to FA status, ya know... Doc talk 06:59, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

@Doc9871: Of course there's an article, duly listed in Trump's sidebar too… — JFG ^talk 07:53, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

FWIW - Concerning any controversies, both this article & Hillary Clinton, should be left alone until after the prez election. GoodDay (talk) 18:06, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

It looks like someone has created Donald Trump email controversy. It seems like that information should be included into this article or merged into Legal affairs of Donald Trump. The standalone article seems very weak and unlikely to have any legs. Mr Ernie (talk) 18:28, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Tag restriction in edit box

Could someone please explain by what consensus or authorization this came from?

Firm consensus is needed to re-install a POV tag above this article per discretionary sanctions. Please consider proposing it at the talk page, or getting attention of further editors other ways, like using an RfC or a section tag or an inline tag. KINGOFTO (talk) 22:59, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

It was added in this edit on August 14, 2016 by administrator MelanieN in response to another editor repeatedly inserting the POV tag. Maintenance tags, like everything else in this article, are subject to the arbitration remedies mentioned at the top of this talk page (WP:ARBAPDS), meaning they shouldn't be restored without consensus. The POV tag is often used as a badge of shame, which is why it's so contentious. Additionally, this page already has over 1300 watchers, so adding the tag to attract more editors or encourage discussion (which is ongoing) is unnecessary. clpo13_(talk) 23:19, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

KINGOFTO, you were advised by one of our most-respected admins to listen to the experienced editors who have advised you to stop repeatedly adding the POV template to the top of this article. Your examples of how the article fails WP:NPOV have been roundly refuted. Your conduct here has gone from annoying to full-on disruptive and tendentious. If you persist, I can almost guarantee that you're going to be blocked or topic banned. Please stop now.- MrX 23:44, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Too late.- MrX 23:53, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Discussion at Template talk:Donald Trump series#Trimming the template

You are invited to join the discussion at Template talk:Donald Trump series#Trimming the template. - MrX 02:07, 2 November 2016 (UTC)Template:Z48