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May 16

British Submarines

What class of submarine preceded the Oberon Class in the Royal and Royal Australian navies?220.253.137.223 (talk) 01:36, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Our article Oberon class submarine states that they were preceeded by the Porpoise class. Nanonic (talk) 01:43, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Under a train

Something that happens occasionally in the movies is the hero lies down between the rails and a train passes harmlessly above them. In reality could you actually do this, or are there some dangly bits hanging under a train that would make it impossible to survive? Astronaut (talk) 02:40, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Needless to say it'd be a very bad idea, but this guy seems to manage it — Matt Eason ^{(Talk • Contribs)} 02:51, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

It has happened a few times in recent memory (a year or two ago a guy in either New York or Boston jumped onto the subway tracks where an epileptic was having a fit and forced them down and both were totally safe). It depends no doubt on the model of train in question. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 03:43, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

I've always been told that the hoses and chains hanging down would kill you if they hit you at high speed. Also the locomotive is likely to have a piece extending quite close to the rails (to sweep things off the tracks and prevent derailment) which would crush you. On old steam locomotives it was called the pilot or "cowcatcher." Edison (talk) 03:55, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

(EC) There was a guy in the UK last year who tried to do it, showing off in front of his friends after an afternoon in the pub. The emergency services were finding body parts all down the track for the next couple of weeks. Not a good idea.--KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 04:38, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Googling "train passed over him" yields some interesting results.--80.3.133.3 (talk) 17:02, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

I've been seeing videos of teenagers lying down under trains for kicks recently. No ill effects observed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.103.68 (talk) 20:02, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

The other videos are harder to find. (But is anyone else reminded of Penn & Teller and "Dear Janet"?) —Tamfang (talk) 22:48, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

It depends on the train, it would either kill you or not, and there is really no way to know in advance. So as a plot element, it is possible, but it would not be an advisable thing to do. Prodego ^talk 14:45, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

A high-speed train (like the French TGV or Spanish AVE) will probably kill you. Not only because they could be too low to leave you space to survive, but they could drag you in the turbulence left behind when the pass. Mr.K. (talk) 11:10, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

In the late forties/early fifties Brian Johnston broadcast live lying down between the tracks as a train passed over him for the radio show In Town Tonight. See [1]. DJ Clayworth (talk) 17:21, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

In addition to all the points mentioned above, it also matters how high the rails are (they're not the same everywhere) and how thick you are. If you were actually in an emergency situation where there was no time to get across the rail, as in the New York incident mentioned above, lying down between the rails gives you a chance to survive. But any other option is better. --Anonymous, 08:25 UTC, May 22, 2009.

archictect

here in wikipedia, it's written that an architct is one who plans and designs buildings. the pic beside it shows a man drawing the structure of the building. well.... is this what architects do? design the structure on a sheet of paper and then supervise the construction?? is there anything... more practical to this profession?? i searched wiki for branches of architecture but couldn't find it... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.50.135.94 (talk) 04:36, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

That is actually what they do. Actually, very practical to the people who have to build the structure. If they didn't have a plan, imagine what the building would be like.--KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 04:40, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

And of course in preparing the plans the architect has to have an indepth knowledge of the construction methods to be used, which materials to construct with and their stress tolerances as well as having an understanding of both the clients needs and the building code regulations or planning regulations of the area. In many builds, the architect also has some project management functions and is the focal point for both the client and construction contractors for any queries over materials, sourcing of items, siting and any decoration. Nanonic (talk) 04:56, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

In building a building, some of the other key people involved include engineers (who work on the structural end of things) and the builders (who put the material together according to the plans and instructions of the architects and the engineers). --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 05:46, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

While many or most architects still do sketches on paper, technology allows them to access stored plans, materials specifications according to code and other tools while designing a building using a computer. In addition they can use video imaging and photographs of the site to show their clients what their new building would look like. The actual drafting work would usually be done by a draftsman or graphics specialist. How much "hands on" work an architect will do depends on the size of his/her office, the type of building they design, the project they are working on and the career path chosen by the architect in question. The field is very varied. This page on some continuing education opportunities may help you catch a tiny glimpse on some of the things architects can deal with. [2] 71.236.24.129 (talk) 08:09, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Speaking as an architect, the drawing on a piece of paper part is no longer very significant. Almost all work is done on a computer using software like AutoCAD or MicroStation. The architect is responsible for leading a team of structural, mechanical, electrical and civil engineers, as well as acoustical consultants, interior designers, lighting specialists, data consultants and others, depending on the scope and scale of the project. Design work is gradually migrating to parametric design tools like Revit, where the building is modeled in detail in three dimensions, with all attributes of materials, colors, quality,and so on modeled in the software. The architect is also responsible from the very beginning for working to (and sometimes writing) the design program that defines the characteristics of the desired product. This is followed by increasingly detailed documents, moving from schematic design, design development, and finally the construction documents that are used to build the structure. Specifications (usually a very thick book) accompany the drawings. The architect will then have a role in the bidding or pricing (having provided estimates during the design process) and will review contractor submittals for materials and monitor construction as the structure is built.

As for the "practical" end, most architects have (or should have) some degree of construction experience; spending a year or two administering a large construction project tends to be a comprehensive exposure to practical construction, but not all firms are set up to allow the designers to deal with construction too. There are some architects who do their own contracting, usually in residential work or interiors.Acroterion _(talk) 15:39, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

What has killed more americans, Swine Flu or Clowns?

Who has been responsible for the most deaths of american people over the years, swine flu or clowns? Note: I am already aware of the Yarmouth Bridge Disaster but this was in the uk and it is hard to be certain that the clown was indeed the killer or in the wrong place at the wrong time. Catoutofthebag (talk) 13:46, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Current swine flu outbreak: 4, John Wayne Gacy: 33. --Sean 15:00, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

{EC} If you're only talking about the recent outbreak of swine flu, that's easy. According to our article, Swine Flu has only killed 7 Americans. John Wayne Gacy alone killed 33 Americans. Clowns win, hands down. However, if you're talking all-time, probably swine flu. The 1918 flu pandemic killed 50 to 100 million people world-wide, but I'm not sure how many of them were Americans. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:04, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

It's far from certain that the Spanish Flu originated in pigs (although pigs are involved in one theory). It was the H1N1 strain, the same as the current outbreak, but that doesn't mean it reached humans in the same way. See Spanish flu research for details. However, if it was, our article says: In the U.S., about 28% of the population suffered, and 500,000 to 675,000 died. --Tango (talk) 15:13, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

After some thought, I think I need to be a little clearer: "Swine flu" is just a name given to the specific virus responsible for the current outbreak, the name really doesn't mean much. "Swine flu" has little more to do with pigs than "Spanish flu" had to do with Spain. They are just names used for convenience ("the 2009 outbreak of the H1N1 strain of Influenza A" just doesn't have the same ring to it!). It is pretty meaningless to group together deaths from different flu outbreaks, even if their origins did both involve pigs - they aren't the same virus. --Tango (talk) 15:27, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Though I would assume that the OP was speaking solely of this most recent strain, regardless of the involvement of pigs. Or else the question would be kind of moot, as regular flu kills 1000x(approx) more people each year than clowns does. --Saddhiyama (talk) 15:49, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Should I avoid clowns showing symptoms of swine flu? --82.70.152.142 (talk) 00:59, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

No. Avoid pigs showing symptoms of clown flu. That's what we're all doing now, isn't it?--KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 01:17, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

I wonder how well a custard pie functions as a surgical mask... --Tango (talk) 01:34, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Between 1990 and 2005, 69 people died from asphyxiating on balloons. I wonder how many of those were balloon animals? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.164.168.11 (talk) 22:30, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm under the impression that Gacy wasn't a professional clown, he only occasionally performed for friends and family, and I don't think he killed people in his clown getup either, so I'm not sure he ought to count. Are there any others? All the other killer clowns I can think of are fictional—Pennywise, the Joker, Ronald McDonald... -- BenRG (talk) 23:14, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

If you restrict it to murders by someone actually dressed as a clown at the time that is going to dramatically reduce the numbers, perhaps to the point where swine flu is back in the running. --Tango (talk) 00:28, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I was going to suggest Kim de Gelder, but apparently he wasn't made up like The Joker after all. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:18, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

You can not only consider murder. If a clown is involved in a fatal car accident, that would also score one for the clowns. 65.121.141.34 (talk) 15:25, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Especially if all 18 clowns in the car perish. -- Coneslayer (talk) 18:50, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

May 17

Dogfish

I went out sea-fishing with a group a while back (my first time). We were out for a while and caught literally hundreds of mackerel. I also caught a bull huss - something I didn't even know existed - as well as numerous dogfish. I was told to throw the dogfish back, as they were 'not very palatable'. However, one of my mates in our group of five caught only dogfish, time and time again (we gave him a share of our catch at the end). I was just wondering, how inedible are these ugly little creatures? The bull huss was lovely when I cooked it later on at home, just wondering what a dogfish would have been like, considering we would have ended up with about ten each if we'd kept them all. The article says they are commonly eaten, but I was told to throw them back (I caught a few of them, myself).--KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 03:46, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Forget it. The article on Bull Huss says it's also a type of dogfish. Doesn't matter.--KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 03:51, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Have you seen this stub [3], Mmm, yummy, pass the ketchup! Richard Avery (talk) 07:44, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Most (all?) types of shark are quite edible, but in general must be prepared differently than bony fish. Shark has no scales, but the skin is tough and must be removed. There are no bones to worry about, and the meat is quite salty, so do not add salt. Very small sharks are more trouble than they are worth. -Arch dude (talk) 09:34, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Dogfish were for decades sold by traditional British 'Fish & Chip' shops and fishmongers, usually under the name of "Rock Salmon" to avoid putting off those who might have an irrational prejudice against dogfish/shark meat. I suspect that EU rules about labelling have largely ended this practice. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 17:46, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Interesting that the article mentions that they are considered a nuisance by fishermen because they hunt in shoals and they would end up in the nets as well as the intended catch. It also mentions that they are endangered due to overfishing (even though, according to the previous sentence, the fishermen didn't want them in the first place). As for the taste, I noticed the Bull Huss was quite salty, but also vinegary. Just after cooking I sampled it (starving after a full day on the boat! Couldn't wait to eat!) and decided accordingly that I didn't want to add anything to it. Lovely, though! Best fish I've had in this country! Went down very well with a few cold beers! --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 01:35, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Don't know whether it depends on the species, but the Germans make smoked dogfish that is quite tasty. de:Schillerlocken71.236.24.129 (talk) 08:19, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Product placement in children's TV

Do CRTC and FCC regulations ban or restrict the use of product placement, or limit the prominence of real brands, in shows targeting children? NeonMerlin 06:25, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm of the opinion that the system is set up to encourage the prominence of real brands in shows targeting children. 96.227.82.128 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:03, 17 May 2009 (UTC).

Well, only if the product is also the subject of the show, and only if you are extremely cynical. Otherwise, if it's not banned outright, prominence is certainly limited; but this is "original research" based on watching Treehouse TV all day (which doesn't have advertisements, by the way). Adam Bishop (talk) 03:14, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I remember from my youth that during the Transformers cartoon, all the commercials were for Hasbro's GI Joe toys, and then half an hour later during the GI Joe cartoon, all the commercials were for Hasbro's Transformers toys. I assume they were restricted (perhaps voluntarily) to put on this fig leaf of the shows not being half-hour product placements. --Sean 13:43, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Atheistic Existentialism and Ethics

I've heard that according to Jean-Paul Sartre and atheistic existentialism, anything you do, as long as you clearly choose to do it and affirm it, it is morally right. Evil is in not-choosing, being directed by others, or being run by society. Sartre said "To choose is to affirm the value of what we choose because we always choose the good.".

Is that true? Is that what Sartre meant? If so, then there are clearly things that are done with eyes open that were dead wrong. For example, they include the killing of the Jews, the September the 11th terrorist attacks, and the bombing of the FBI building in Oklahoma. So how did Sarte and how does atheistic existentialism respond to this problem?

Bowei Huang (talk) 06:52, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

[Opinion Alert]: The idea itself is contradictory. If we do not choose to do something, yet others choose it for us, then still a choice has been made. The three examples above were all examples of choices being made by their superiors or their social groups or whatever, not the perpetrators themselves. No justification. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 07:08, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

If that definition of Sarte's view is true (which I'm not sure it is), it basically degrades the notion of "morally right" to mean "self-chosen" which is not what most people mean by it. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 14:09, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Morality is an entirely subjective concept (well, there are some people that disagree with that), so Sartre can have those morals if he wants, but other people probably wouldn't share them. --Tango (talk) 14:38, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually I think Sarte's whole argument is that it is not a subjective concept and that he has a definition for it. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 02:24, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I can see what he means. If you choose to do something, knowing what the result of that action will be, then it must by definition be in accordance with your morals, and therefore the "right" thing to do, under the circumstances. He didn't use words like "good", "positive", "beneficial" etc - just "right", and I doubt he meant it in that moralistic sense. Sometimes we're placed in situations where we have to choose the lesser of two (or more) evils, neither of which we would normally do at all. But in this situation a choice must be made, and our morals dictate which choice is made. I might choose one option, you another. Our own personal circumstances and inner feeling states come to bear. It fits nicely with a model used by Milton H. Erickson and others, which assumes that behind all behaviour - that's ALL behaviour, no matter how bizarre or destructive it may appear to others - there is a positive intention. Mind you, those guys spurn the use of the right/wrong paradigm, and are concerned only with what works/doesn't work. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:38, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I choose heads; therefore, heads is good. You choose tails; therefore tails is good. This works, but only until we flip a coin. DOR (HK) (talk) 09:34, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Most disabled person

In the novel Johnny Got His Gun the main character has lost both arms, both legs, his sight, his hearing, his nose, and his lower jaw (darn those artillery shells). Has there ever been a real life case of someone similarly disabled? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.36.216.233 (talk) 07:14, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

A quick look for 'quadruple amputee' in our friend Google shows several cases of women having arms and legs amputated, as a result of septicemia, and one man losing 4 limbs in an industrial accident. In all these cases the amputations are partial, as only the extremities are affected by the gangrene. The novel character, in real life, should have had internal injuries as well, and not survived. I am assuming he is not an action hero in this book.KoolerStill (talk) 11:25, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Google pentaplegia -palsy. Pentaplegia is also associated with Cerebral palsy, but it seems that your question is better answered by removing those cases from the search. 152.16.16.75 (talk) 00:25, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Prince Randian who appeared in Tod Brownings Freaks is possiblt the most well known person without limbs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TrogWoolley (talk • contribs) 16:05, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

A number of people such as Jean-Dominique Bauby have been almost entirely paralyzed (he could only move one eyelid) but he seemed to have been able to see and hear. I don't know of anyone similarly paralyzed, blind, and deaf, for instance. --193.172.19.20 (talk) 17:11, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

May 18

Japanese Wind Bell (風鈴)

On Japanese bells that they put outside their homes (in traditional homes), they have a strip of paper attached to the clanger to attract the wind and make the bell ring. I was given one by a friend about a year ago and have hung it outside my back door. Unfortunately, the rain has started to erode the paper away. I am not in Japan now, and am not in a position to ask anyone Japanese about it, but does this happen in Japan? I was there for ten years and certainly don't remember ever seeing this. If it doesn't happen, how do they stop it? Or do they just replace the strip of paper periodically?--KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 02:35, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Since no one else has bitten yet: Wind chime doesn't say. Maybe you'll get lucky if you ask on that discussion page. (Does the Japanese Wikipedia [4] have a Forum or Refdesk?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.236.24.129 (talk) 08:13, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I've tried, but I seem to need a new username for it, as it won't accept my current one. What's happening there? --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 10:46, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I can't see if there is a RefDesk or not, and to be honest, I can't even remember how I found this one, it was so long ago. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 18:12, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Japanese RefDesk is here: [5] --Auximines (talk) 19:30, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Goth vs. Emo

Do goths typically get super-offended if you call them emo? And if so, why? I know they're two distinctly different subcultures, but they also have a lot of things in common (at least IMO). And why do people associated with emo receive a bigger backlash than goths? Whip it! ^{Now whip it good!} 05:43, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

OR warning: For the last question about the backlash, I think it's because emo is seen as just being a bunch of depressed people listening to depressing music whereas goths are more of a hard rock sort of crowd with a macabre spin. Dismas|^(talk) 08:15, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, if you make assumptions about someone, and those assumptions don't really fit in with their self-image, chances are you're coming off as a bit of a jerk. In fact, I would go so far as to say that if you see someone dressed in black and wearing some make-up and feel the urge to say "hey, goth dude" or "hey, emo dude," you probably are a bit of a jerk. A well-meaning and non-malicious jerk, maybe, but still. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 10:11, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, but if someone goes out of their way to dress according to a certain convention, are they not making an effort to be seen as fitting into the label commonly attached to that convention? If I were to impersonate a policeman, am I not wanting to be seen as a cop? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 11:43, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Right, and if you go to a cop and say "hey, security guard dude", chances are that your faulty assumption doesn't endear you to the cop. The point is, you can probably interact with that individual (especially if the individual is not a police officer) without making the presumptuous assumption. If you feel an urge to label someone, a lot of people find that annoying -- especially if they don't feel the label fits them. I mean, yeah, you can certainly present a reasonable argument as to why getting annoyed isn't very smart, and chances are you would be right... But if the goal is to get along with the person in question, that's probably not going to help things any. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 13:12, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I think it's a reasonable assumption that a person who dresses to type wishes to be the type. Recognising the character they are trying to play is, if anything, a recognition of their efforts. It is a faulty recognition which could produce unpleasantness. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 23:39, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I think this documentary may answer your questions. Tempshill (talk) 15:44, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

As someone who's had first-hand experience to these subcultures, I thought I'd throw in my two cents. Goths and Emos are very similar as far as overall appearance; indeed, some persons may be characterized as both Goth and Emo. What little differences there are usually pertain to the extremes of both subcultures. A Goth will be more likely to revel in excessively elaborate fashion styles and have a greater affinity to darker music (or aptly named Gothic metal. Emos are not as elaborate and can be characterized by hair dyes, piercings, and a preference for hardcore, metalcore or Emo music. Still, these stereotypes are not necessarily conclusive; each person has unique behavioral traits and preferences. As a high school senior, I've met a lot of Goths and Emos and I can tell you that they are not all the same, in spite of having similar appearances or musical preferences. Finally, without a doubt, Emos are the most hated group, one of the only ones I have ever seen people make death threats towards, mainly because of their self-loathing and angst-ridden <sic> lifestyles. I'd almost go so far as to say that the prejudice held towards them parallels racism and anti-Semitism. With these in mind, yes, Goths will be offended if you call them Emo, simply because of the derogatory connotation the latter group holds.--WaltCip (talk) 16:51, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Monkeys

I watched a docmentary once, it showed a troop of monkeys who had dognapped puppies, raised them and used them to protect the troop from predators. This was some time ago and i believed the troop to be Baboons although i cannot be sure. Can anybody help me in confirming this- location, troop species and dog species would be much appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161battery (talk • contribs) 10:27, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

If you had ever seen a troop of baboons you would know that no dog could stand against them.86.200.135.129 (talk) 14:05, 18 May 2009 (UTC)DT

The OP is not suggesting that the dogs stood against the baboons.Popcorn II (talk) 16:35, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Of course not! But why should baboons want a dog to protect them when they can eat a dog for breakfast ? (That means a baboon can easily destroy a dog)... and especially so when you note that they operate in troops of 30 to 40 animals. It would take a brave (foolhardy) animal of any size to upset a troop!!86.197.171.22 (talk) 15:02, 19 May 2009 (UTC)DT

Lol as i have said i believe the troop to be Baboons but i am not sure, obviously you do not have the answers i am looking for which means you have nothing constructive to add! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161battery (talk • contribs) 05:45, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I've not been able to find the documentary referenced by the OP, but I found something that reminds me of an old saying: What matters isn't the size of the dog in the fight, but the the size of the fight in the dog. 152.16.51.122 (talk) 05:12, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

nothing to see here

ok thank you for your ansers I have deleted them now Jwg1994 (talk) 14:37, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Hereis a link to what was here. – Elliott(Talk|Cont)  17:29, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Didn't anyone find that question odd? anyone?  Buffered Input Output 12:47, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

It looks like one person either thought it a prank, or had enough concern that they gave an answer which - if followed - would have pretty much told everyone where it was. I find the qustion odd, too, but doubt anyone would seriously turn to the Reference Desk for that advice. the time of acquiring the screen name, and from where, would have been very traceable, if time-consuming.Somebody or his brother (talk) 13:10, 19 May 2009 (UTC))

Is this a scam?

I saw this in Craiglist by a car dealership:

"$587 Down & $63 A Week- 100% NOT BASED ON CREDIT! NO Jokes.---This program does work!---Your credit score does not matter here!---Approvals are based on income and time on the job."

How does this work? What is the catch? --Reticuli88 (talk) 13:55, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

As a starting point, you can bet that the loan has a high APR and a long term. They'll require proof of employment (income/time on job). If they rip you off enough on the price of the car, the risk that you default while "underwater" on the loan is reasonably low. Any losses on such loans are (presumably) more than offset by the high rates on the performing loans. -- Coneslayer (talk) 14:20, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

You don't give the price of the car, the interest rate or the term of the loan. If that's because the dealer didn't give them, then it is definitely a scam. You need that information to determine if it is a good deal or not. --Tango (talk) 14:44, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

The advertisement did not provide price of car nor the interest rate. --Reticuli88 (talk) 14:49, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Then the default answer is, "Yes, this is a scam." Tempshill (talk) 15:41, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

After 5 years, you've paid $17,000. After 10 years, over $33,000. DOR (HK) (talk) 09:44, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Buddhists

Why do Buddhists meditate together? If you slap a Buddhist on the face, will he offer the other side? Mr.K. (talk) 15:42, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Mu. Tempshill (talk) 15:44, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Mu?

Mr.K. (talk) 16:04, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

The answer is to unask the question. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.255.228.5 (talk) 18:18, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

As one Chan master once famously said (about someone other than the OP, admittedly): "strike him dead with one swing of the stick." --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 23:35, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

OK, a straight answer for once. Buddhists meditate both alone and together. The advantage of meditating together is partly for the shared experience, but also that one feels more obliged to be disciplined and quiet, rather than restless, so this helps the meditation. As for the slap question, this is not a tradition as it is with Christians (and I have seen a Christian do this), and I would think the slappee would be more likely to try to engage the slapper in conversation, depending very much on the mental state of each person at the time. There is, however, an apocryphal story of a master repeatedly asking his disciple about the sound of one hand clapping. Eventually the disciple got so tired of this question that he slapped his master on the face. The master beamed with delight and said "At last!"--Shantavira|^{feed me} 06:58, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Some Christians seem to favor the older passage about "An eye for an eye" rather than turning the other cheek, judging by examples of punches thrown in response to a slap. (The police inexplicable fail to record the faith of the participants in brawls.:-) 71.236.24.129 (talk) 08:04, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Of course, a punch for a slap is not the same as "an eye for an eye". A slap for a slap would be much closer... Matt Deres (talk) 14:01, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Please don't feed the trolls. DOR (HK) (talk) 09:45, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Magic Eye

Hello, I need a good guide to view magic eye images. I have read the article but I still am unable to. --Drogonov (talk) 16:31, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I guess this (http://www.vision3d.com/methd02.html) site won't say anything you've not read but worth a read perhaps? ny156uk (talk) 18:00, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

The way I do it is to put my eyes out of focus so that I'm not focusing on the image itself but on an imaginary point behind it. Just let your eyes go all fuzzy, is the only way I can describe it. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 18:03, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, you have to relax your eyes so that you are looking through the image as if it's made of glass. Try focusing a short distance behind it and try shifting your focus so that you are focusing at different distances beyond it and you should suddenly see the fuzzy mess start to take 3D form. When you first 'get it' the temptation is to snap your focus onto the paper/book image, but this means you lose the 3D image straight away so it takes a bit of practice.Popcorn II (talk) 19:45, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Difficult to master but I'm begining to get it. Thanks. --Drogonov (talk) 00:45, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

It is possible that you are one of perhaps 20%5% of the population who simply doesn't see in 3D. It's fairly common for babies to be born a little cross-eyed - and they almost always grow out of it - but if that doesn't happen within a few months, the part of the brain that provides the ability to see in 3D using stereopsis doesn't develop. Those people are unable to understand the 3D effect in magic-eye pictures no matter what. Do you find that the world looks 'flatter' when you close one eye? If not then this is almost certainly the reason. But if that's not the case then the trick is to notice the repetition in the image - and relax your vision so you start seeing double. Then the idea is to have the 'doubled' image of one repeat of the pattern line up exactly with the next repeat of the pattern. When you do that, the 3D effect should suddenly 'jump out' at you. It's vital that the picture is fairly exactly horizontal (so the pattern repetition happens along a line that's parallel to the line running through the center of your two eyes). There are several other techniques offered in our Autostereogram article. In ASCII stereogram there are some examples that work with simple ASCII text such as this one:

                     O              O
 OIWEQPOISDFBKJFOIWEQPOISDFBKJFOIWEQPOISDFBKJFOIWEQPOISDFBKJF
 EDGHOUIEROUIYWEVDGHOXUIEROIYWEVDGHEOXUIEOIYWEVDGHEOXUIEOIYWE
 KJBSVDBOIWERTBAKJBSVEDBOIWRTBAKJBSOVEDBOWRTBAKJBSOVEDBOWRTBA
 SFDHNWECTBYUVRGSFDHNYWECTBUVRGSFDHCNYWECBUVRGSFDHCNYWECBUVRG
 HNOWFHLSFDGWVRGHNOWFGHLSFDWVRGHNOWSFGHLSDWVRGHNLOWSFGLSDWVRG
 YPOWVXTNWFECHRGYPOWVEXTNWFCHRGYPOWNVEXTNFCHRGYPWOWNVETNFCHRG
 SVYUWXRGTWVETUISVYUWVXRGTWVETUISVYUWVXRGWVETUISVYUWVXRGWVETU
 WVERBYOIAWEYUIVWVERBEYOIAWEYUIVWVERBEYOIWEYUIVWLVERBEOIWEYUI
 EUIOETOUINWEBYOEUIOEWTOUINWEBYOEUIOEWTOUNWEBYOETUIOEWOUNWEBY
 WFVEWVETN9PUW4TWFVEWPVETN9UW4TWFVETWPVET9UW4TWFBVETWPET9UW4T
 NOUWQERFECHIBYWNOUWQXERFECIBYWNOUWFQXERFCIBYWNOFUWFQXRFCIBYW
 VEHWETUQECRFVE[VEHWERTUQECFVE[VEHWQERTUQCFVE[VEOHWQERUQCFVE[
 UIWTUIRTWUYWQCRUIWTUYIRTWUWQCRUIWTXUYIRTUWQCRUIBWTXUYRTUWQCR
 IYPOWOXNPWTHIECIYPOWTOXNPWHIECIYPONWTOXNWHIECIYLPONWTXNWHIEC
 R9UHWVETPUNRQYBR9UHWVETPUNRQYBR9UHWVETPUNRQYBR9UHWVETPUNRQYB

In this case, you need to cross your eyes just enough to have the two 'O's at the top double-image so that the rightmost doubled image of the left-hand O lines up with the leftmost doubled image of the right-hand O. When that happens, the repeated patterns of text should also line up - except for in the few places where the text is further or closer in the 'virtual' image. SteveBaker (talk) 01:48, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Books look identical with one eye closed or both open. It seems as though I don't have the ability (sad face). Though I can cross my eyes and get the double image effect fairly easily, I cannot see a 3d image. --Drogonov (talk) 08:33, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Me neither. And I like to get my own back on those that can see the images, by using an Emperor's new clothes metaphor. The suggestion that no-one can really see anything in these images drives people wild until they realise my tongue is firmly in my cheek. --Dweller (talk) 10:18, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Hi, and thanks for the image.Good stuff. cheers, 10draftsdeep (talk) 14:37, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

FYI, 10draftsdeep has just cunningly demonstrated that there is indeed a discernable 3D image in that pile of text up there...by recognising that this was cunning, I'm confirming that I too see the "Hidden Image" by posting this arcane acknowledgement. Hence, at least two people here can do it - and those who think it's impossible to see a 3D image there should probably read what I have to say below quite carefully!

It is certainly possible (indeed, likely) that at least one or two people who are following this thread literally lack the ability to see in three dimensions using stereopsis. It is thought that between 2% and 5% of people may have this problem! (I said 20% above - but that was incorrect - I was thinking "One in twenty" - I checked, it's 5%).

Stereoblindness covers this (albeit briefly). Amblyopia is about a more general problem - but actually explains things better...and it even points out that failure to detect 3D effects in autostereograms is a symptom of the problem. It has long been thought that people who fail to develop stereopsis in the first few months of life are forever doomed to seeing only in two dimensions (although they are hardly ever aware of the fact - and there are some other cues that enable some degree of depth perception without the ability to perform stereopsis). People who either 'grew out' of the original 'wandering eye' or 'squint' problem or were treated for it and can technically see correctly - may never have developed the brain circuitry to make use of it. What's interesting and new is that quite recently a few people with this condition have managed to train their brains to see in 3D again!

If you have this condition - I STRONGLY advise you to seek medical advice because with practice and determination, you could find yourself exposed to a whole new way of seeing the world...which you've got to admit would be kinda exciting! There was a radio interview with the lady who first managed to do this - and she is extremely excited about her new-found ability. There are some very specific exercises to try - but it takes time.

SteveBaker (talk) 21:02, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Ok I think i'll bring this up with an optician. Do I just say I can't see magic eye images? Or do I mention one of the conditions you've mentioned? Thanks for the assistance. --Drogonov (talk) 11:40, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I think that might raise a chuckle and a "Well, lots of people can't do that - don't worry about it". I think you'd be better off saying that you suspect that you have "stereo blindness" - let the optician determine whether that's true and if so, whether the condition that caused it has subsequently 'gone away'. Whether basic opticians of the kind you find doing routine eye tests and selling overpriced sunglasses have the equipment that tests for that - I have no clue. Whether a normal optician would be able to suggest the necessary exercises is also something of an unknown. The place I learned about this phenomenon was in relation to a lady who is often called "Stereo Sue" in the literature. It was on NPR here, and also here - and subsequently here. SteveBaker (talk) 12:34, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I think it is possible to be unable to see magic eyes without having stereoblindness - I offer myself as case in point. I can sometimes see that there is something there in a magic eye but I can never get it to come into focus. However, I can see in 3D - I can see a distinct flatness when I look at certain things with only one eye open compared to both open. --Tango (talk) 12:45, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I'll add that it takes a bit of practice and time. Once I get the proper focus, I can generally see any of the images right away, but not before at least a minute or two of adjusting my eyes for the first "image of the day". Even though I saw it yesterday, it took me once again a solid minute of staring and adjusting my gaze to see it today. cheers, 10draftsdeep (talk) 17:28, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

When I was first shown such images (many years ago when their quality was poorer), I doubted the veracity of the (then few) people who said they could see an image, and it was not until someone explained how they were printed that I worked out how to unfocus my eyes to see the image. I practised until I could see the images almost immediately, but I have now lost the skill. The image above doesn't seem to work in some screen resolutions? Dbfirs 20:37, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Weird symbol on cameras

I've noticed I've seen the same symbol on many SLR cameras. It's a circle with a line bisecting it, looking like the Greek letter phi. It doesn't seem to mark any sort of control or display, it just is there. What is this symbol and what purpose does it serve on the camera? JIP | Talk 19:06, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Where on the camera do you see it? Near the shutter release, the aperture adjustment, the shutter speed, the distance indicator, or where? If on the top or bottom it might indicate the film plane. Edison (talk) 19:08, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

It's usually on the top of the camera, somewhere near the prism. The only camera I can check at the moment is my own Olympus E-520, and there it's just next to the back left corner of the prism, between the prism and the flash pop-up button. The film plane explanation sounds plausible but it also appears on digital cameras. Is it there for historical reasons? JIP | Talk 19:13, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

That's the location of the Film plane - i.e., the location where the film or sensor is positioned, and where the light from the lens will converge to be in sharp focus. --Zerozal (talk) 19:14, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick answer! I knew it had to have a reason for being there, but I couldn't figure out what it was. JIP | Talk 19:15, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Note that in photography, focus distances are normally measured from the film/sensor plane. For example, the distance markings on your lens, and the "minimum focus distance" in its specifications, will be measured from there. -- Coneslayer (talk) 19:51, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

After the Apocalypse...

Once civilization collapses, what would be the best way to get gasoline out of service station pumps which no longer work electrically? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 19:11, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Serious answer... Hand operated pump sounds like a good way, unless your gas station is on a tall hill. Then you can siphon. 65.121.141.34 (talk) 19:26, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Humor...If I misinterpreted and you don't actually need to move the fuel into another tank, you just need it out of the gas station tank, I think a road flare would be of use, though the tank would probably not be in the best shape when you are done. 65.121.141.34 (talk) 19:26, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I suggest a hand fuel pump. Be aware that gasoline goes stale, usually in under a year. (Faster if it's got a alcohol in it.)

So be prepared to live in a post-gasoline world shortly after the Apocalypse. (On the plus side : No boring attempts to conserve it!)

Perhaps you should start thinking about converting a vehicle to Wood gas APL (talk) 19:34, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, my intention was trying to get it into some sort of vehicle. Motorcycle for quick getaways from dangerous cannibals, trucks for hauling stuff liberated from empty stores.  :) I figured that the gas would probably not be viable after a while. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 19:51, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

And where would one living post-apocalypse be able to find a hand fuel pump? A sporting goods store? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 19:53, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I think they're often used to fuel (or defuel) small yachts, so if you're in a coastal region, I recommend heading down to the nearest marina to try to pillage one. Probably other useful stuff there as well.APL (talk) 20:45, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Camping equipment might also have some, though those would be designed for water most likely. 65.121.141.34 (talk) 20:50, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

When people talk about gas going stale or getting gummy they're talking about running an engine on it, but after the apocalypse you'll probably be engaged in much humbler pursuits where the gasoline's flammability alone will be useful. In The Road, the protagonist just lowers a jar on a string to get gas out of an underground tank. --Sean 20:41, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I think the Straight Dope article mentioned above doesn't actually answer the question of how long the gasoline in a sealed (well, "nominally sealed" as in normal, pre-apocalypse circumstances) underground gas station tank will last in sufficient state to allow a car or truck engine to run on it. It might actually be that an electric vehicle might be worth its weight in spam, if you live next to a working unattended nuclear reactor that has been left in the "on" position, or perhaps next to a wood-burning electric generator. Tempshill (talk) 22:43, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Harder to find spare parts for, though. I wonder if diesel lasts longer? I mentioned Wood gas because I've heard of gas vehicles converted to run by cooking sawdust over a wood stove and piping the fumes directly into the engine. This is probably a major hassle, but after the gas runs out it might remain usable for some time. APL (talk) 00:41, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Stale gas doesn't stop your car from running - it just makes it a little harder to start and run a little rough. You can always raid some abandoned car parts stores for octane booster. I think you'd still be able to run an older car with adjustable (non-computerized) carburettor for many years on the old gas lying around in gas stations. A hand pump would be OK - but a bucket on the end of a chain would be easier. You could probably cobble together a pump from old car parts - a fuel pump, some thin plastic tubing and a car battery would do just fine. SteveBaker (talk) 03:11, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Forget gasoline go hunting for Diesel engine cars and trucks. If you run out of diesel fuel from the gas stations, you can convert the motor to run on canola oil (other vegetable and food oils reportedly take more of an conversion effort). Flush out the engine and change all the filters before you fill it in. Find a good manual on Diesel engine adjustment. If your civilization collapse didn't kill off your local auto mechanic they should be able to do it. This can be done without too much effort and if you want to, you can then take your time developing the wood gas car. 71.236.24.129 (talk) 07:34, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Which reminds me, remember to keep a recent Wikipedia database dump / backup on DVD in a safe, together with a small electric generator and a laptop, for postapocalyptic use. Jørgen (talk) 13:38, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

An electric generator will take fossil fuels. Perhaps you would consider a more environmentally friendly solar panel? 65.121.141.34 (talk) 14:18, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

You don't really need to worry about the environment if most of the human race has been wiped out. --Tango (talk) 17:00, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Along with most of the infrastructure used to create petroleum based fuels. 65.121.141.34 (talk) 18:52, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

If it remains usable, you could run a computer for a very long time on the gas sitting around in filling stations, and have plenty to drive around with besides.

Neither the solar panel or the gasoline is a long-term solution you can reliably pass onto your children, however. Eventually the panel will fail and the fuel will run out, and there would be no way to replace either. APL (talk) 01:36, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Can I point out though that computers rapidly become pretty useless in such a world. The best use of them in such a situation that I can imagine is as a giant book, but even then, there are far less difficult ways to do that. Computers are a wonderful technology that really only do their thing in a world that is built to accommodate them. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 02:17, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

If you really wanted a computer - one of those OLPC gizmo's would be your best bet. You get a hand-cranked charger - no moving parts - very rugged case and ad-hoc networking with other such boxes (so no Internet infrastructure required). If you could find a warehouse full of them so you'd have plenty of spares, you could find uses for them. SteveBaker (talk) 02:36, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

The hand-crank was dropped from the design fairly early on. There are some other power generation options though. More information at OLPC XO-1. --LarryMac | Talk 19:50, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I mentioned a computer because someone mentioned an offline Wikipedia copy. Which would be handy. Wikipedia can be a great resource for people suddenly in unfamiliar situations. APL (talk) 14:57, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Especially if they still have pokemon cards in the postapocalyptic future. TastyCakes (talk) 20:15, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

With a bit of work on the connections, you could run a formerly electric pump from a car engine. One gas station would have enough to supply you for several years (depending on how many others survived nearby), giving you time to raid nearby stores for other supplies you will need in the long term. Liberate a fuel tanker and bring in supplies from other gas stations as yours runs low. While you still have fuel to generate electricity, print out WP and some science encyclopedias as the foundation knowledge base of your new civilsation.KoolerStill (talk) 20:36, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I think the message is to work like mad to avoid the collapse of civilization. DOR (HK) (talk) 09:50, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Hosepipe. Get a section of hosepipe, block one end off, tie the other end to a long piece of string. Drop the hosepipe down the pipe hole, pull it back up with the string. Repeat. 78.146.162.232 (talk) 14:25, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

A profession question

What kind of occupation would make the most sense if one likes to read anything and everything voraciously? The only thing said person has tried and failed to finish due to lack of interest is the dictionary. Thank you, The Reader who Writes (talk) 21:24, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

You failed to finish the dictionary???? I read dictionaries before I go to bed - it's a wonderful way to switch my mind off for the night!--TammyMoet (talk) 08:25, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Me too, but not anymore. I finished the thick Oxford companion in about 3 months. It was an addiction. - DSachan (talk) 09:01, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

All just to find out in the end that the zebra did it? To be honest, I saw it coming, but aardvark was an early suspect. Matt Deres (talk) 14:06, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I think you turned two pages at once - there was a final twist in the tale - Zygmunt Żuławski did it. SteveBaker (talk) 23:11, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Being a security guard/night watchman usually allows plenty of time to sit around reading.Popcorn II (talk) 21:27, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

You could work in the Press office for a major firm - lots of companies have staff whose job it is to look for references of the business in media (positive and negative) though the type of reading is not for fun so much as scanning. More obvious (but presumably harder to attain) they could be a book-critic, an editor for a publisher or a proof-reader (for novels/texts). There are many many jobs which are heavy on reading but rarely do you 'choose' what you read (to my knowledge). ny156uk (talk) 22:04, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I think you would be cut out to be a writer. I have heard it said that the best way to learn to write -- is to read. So, paradoxically, your occupation may be in writing, with reading only serving an ancillary function. Bus stop (talk) 22:13, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree. I've heard plenty of writers say that reading a lot is very important. Particularly for writing fiction, I think. --Tango (talk) 22:25, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Speaking as a writer, I kind of agree. They say that you need to write a million bad words out of your system to get to the good ones, and there's truth to that -- it takes a lot of practice to become a good writer. But I think you can probably cut down on the amount of "bad words" in you by learning some good ones, and while writing stupid crap and then realizing that it was stupid, and then later on realizing precisely why it was stupid played an important role in my own learning process, I've probably learned more from reading something I thought was awesome and then figuring out why it's awesome. That's a kind of a semi-active process, though: you need to pay attention to what you're reading and analyze it as you go, and if you've never done that before, it can be difficult to figure out just what it is the writer is doing on any given page, and why -- how the writer is manipulating the reader, essentially. Once you get it down, it becomes second nature, and it's really, really useful when you're writing things yourself, because there's no point in reinventing the wheel. Another important point is that if you don't know what's good and what's bad, you're not going to write very well -- and the only way to tell the difference is to read enough to refine your taste. And, of course, the more you know, the more you have to work with when you're actually writing regardless of what it is you actually write -- journalism, fiction, literary criticism (in which case reading a lot would be an obvious prerequisite), or whatever. So, yeah, reading is really, really important for a writer.

That said, though, being a voracious reader doesn't automatically mean writing is the thing for you. I mean, I'm not at all sure there's a correlation between the two; the processes involved are pretty different, and so are the pleasures. My point is that just reading a lot doesn't by itself indicate that you would do well as a writer, or perhaps more importantly, that you would particularly enjoy being one. It's certainly worth a shot if the idea seems appealing, but it's a little like saying that maybe you'd like to be a movie director because you like watching movies a lot or maybe you'd like to be a cook because you really like to eat well. Sure, you might, but it's not really the same thing.

And yes, careerwise it can absolutely be a hard slog. My years of freelance journalism and other gigs are starting to be behind me, and I now find myself doing pretty cool work where I can actually sit down and write and really satisfy that creative urge, but it certainly took me a pretty long time -- about a decade, really -- to get to a point where my writing is actually providing me with a steady income and I don't have to supplement that with other work. But it's worth noting that all the weird little gigs I did before, all the stupid pop culture crap I crammed into my brain over the years did a pretty wonderful job of preparing me precisely for this kind of work. Still, if I had children to support, it would've been hard to reach this point. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 00:40, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Fact-checker and copy editor for Wikipedia, though those positions currently offer no pay, health benefits, or accolades. You didn't mention how good this person's memory is — that makes a difference. Tempshill (talk) 22:45, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, your help is much appreciated. I do write some fiction, but it does not seem to be a very secure job to have. My memory is fine, although I can be absentminded at times. Thanks again, The Reader who Writes (talk) 00:21, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Proofreader for translators would be a good one. You would get things from practically every field under the sun, that way. There are websites where you can register for free, and documents then get sent to you by email. You read them at home, correct any grammatical errors, and send them back. Easy job and very interesting sometimes. Being a professional translator it's also another aspect of the work I do. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 00:29, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

They are becoming rather rare. It's hard enough to pay translators with what companies are budgeting these days. Many agencies have cut proofreading. (Judging from the many typos and mistakes I find in books, magazines and newspapers, so have many other former employers for this service.) 71.236.24.129 (talk) 07:53, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

True. But my main agent still asks me to proofread other translators' works, even though they never proofread mine. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 10:22, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I wonder if there are jobs with publishers - going through the proofs of a gazillion amateur books looking for one worth publishing? If nothing else, that might finally be the thing that blunts your reading voracity! SteveBaker (talk) 01:30, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, sure, a publisher's reader. Depending on the size and nature of the publisher, the same person may also work as a book editor, but typically the job goes to an editor's assistant who separates the wheat from the chaff so the editor doesn't have to. Going through the slush pile can be a hell of a job, since the crap/gold ratio is pretty terrible (but at least you don't need to read through the entire manuscript to realize it's crap)... -- Captain Disdain (talk) 07:34, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Librarians have to do a lot of reading. They get to read more summaries than full books, though. You could start a book club (like this guy [6] and suggest books you read to your subscribers. 71.236.24.129 (talk) 07:53, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Given the place where this was asked, I'm surprised reference librarian wasn't mentioned sooner. -- 128.104.112.117 (talk) 17:22, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I'd say lawyer. But the fact that you couldn't finish the dictionary is worrying - many/most legal papers make the dictionary read like a thriller. --Dweller (talk) 10:05, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I recommend the judgments of Lord Denning, then. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 23:21, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Literary agent?

If OP goes for that last one and actually reads the manuscripts he might be the first and only one IMHO. They usually skim or ask for a summary and then do the promoting (don't get your hopes up too high on that either) and negotiating. Not that someone who did a thorough job wouldn't be most welcome. 71.236.24.129 (talk) 07:44, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

May 19

song !?

theres an old song .. and i dont remember much of it.. all i remember is the line "and then she told him of the day she would wed" the song is about a boy and a girl who grew up being best friends, they always had a crush on eachother ,and then when they grew up he was in love with her but then she got married to another guy. i heard the song the other night, and just cant't remember what its called. now i'm from Newfoundland so more then likley thats where it came from. but anyways , i really need to figure it out.. its been driving me crazy! help !? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amandadawe (talk • contribs) 00:32, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

You'd definitely stand a better chance of getting a good answer if you asked this on our Entertainment ref.desk. They are amazingly good at this sort of question. SteveBaker (talk) 01:27, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

It sounds like the story in The Girl I Left Behind.75.91.102.188 (talk) 01:34, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Huh. Seems like writing a new song in a folk style, and giving it the same name as a famous folk song, would be a needlessly confusing thing to do! :P 80.41.20.78 (talk) 17:57, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

OR - Meaning

Pardon my ignorance of leet, but what does 'OR' mean? 'Original Research'?--KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 02:46, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

On Wikipedia, usually. See WP:OR, which is Wikipedia shorthand for Wikipedia:No original research. Usually if you see a little abbreviated word like this used on talk pages it has a WP: link shortcut equivalent... WP:NPOV, WP:V, etc. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 02:54, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

If you're thinking of my anonyms.swer to the "Goth vs. Emo" question above, I meant Original Research. Basically Wikipedia shorthand for saying that I don't have a source for what I was saying and that it is my own original research (opinion). Dismas|^(talk) 03:03, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

WTF? OMG! TMD TLA. ARG! ~EdGl ★ 03:29, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Two letter acronyms certainly have to be important, even TLAs can often be confused with one another so XTLAs are used for the avoidance of doubt. Wikipedia has its own special load of acronyms so two letter ones can be used more often but WP:OR would be more specific, see Wikipedia:Glossary for a lot of other wiki'ed acronyms and terms. Dmcq (talk) 08:46, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Glossary? TLDR. --Dweller (talk) 09:59, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh dear, TLDR isn't in that glossary, I'm sure it should be added along with a number of others I've noticed being used here so there is a definitive list ;-) Oh and by the way that's an emoticon, a type of smiley Dmcq (talk) 10:30, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Clocks

Why do most photos of clocks/watches depict the time as ten to two? 117.194.224.8 (talk) 04:53, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I've seen somewhere that it's because it's a near-symmetrical position, and thus pleasing to the eye, and it allows the manufacturers' logo to be seen without a hand obscuring it.-gadfium 05:15, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

The position (or ten past ten, which is similar) is called a "smiling watch"[7].-gadfium 05:18, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

This is asked probably about every six months or so. If you search the archives, you should be able to find the old answers. We even used to have an article about it before it was deleted due to lack of notability or some such thing. Dismas|^(talk) 05:28, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it was a victory for the deletionists – one of their most egregious, in my opinion. The deletion discussion is here. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 05:30, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

• For anyone who is interested here's an archived version of the article--Drogonov (talk) 08:26, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I know this has been asked many times before, but none of them managed to come up with really satisfactory answers. A Google search showed me explanations like "the time of Abraham Lincoln's death" and "time the inventor of the clock died"... You get the picture... And even for the "manufacturer logo" explanation, I find that there are lots of other hand positions that can not get in the logo's way (9:15 or 2:45, for example). I'm still looking for a truly unique quality about the 10:10 or 1:50 position. And, here's another question: Are both positions (10:10 and 1:50) used equally frequently? Thanks in advance. 117.194.224.126 (talk) 07:13, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I've never seen it at 1.50, I've only ever seen it at 10.10 – or 10.8 to be more precise. I think the best answer you're going to get is the first one – there's a pleasing symmetry to it which shows the clock off to the best advantage in the shop. I also heard that it was beneficial for the watch itself to be kept in this position, but I doubt that is true. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 07:27, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

It sounds to me that this is a notable subject though the title of 10:08 probably is not a good one since there are a number of close alternatives. WP:NOTE says nothing about needing an explanation for something to be notable. It has been researched a few times, the research seems reliable enough and isn't just a blog, and a number of possible explanations have been given which may or may not be right, and lots of people are interested, that's quite enough. The delete discussion seemed to confuse reliability of the explanations or the p[articular times with reliability of the research. Dmcq (talk) 08:27, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Cecil Adam's Column covered this a while back.APL (talk) 13:59, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't necessarily need an article of its own. One reason why it shouldn't necessarily have an article of its own is the difficulty of coming up with a suitable name for such article. Could we call it "Watch or clock faces in advertising"? I don't think that is so great, but it is the best I can think up. But clearly Clock face, which also has a redirect from Watch face, should include material on just this subject, but I don't think that it presently does. And a "See also" section in other related articles could link to just this sub-section. A little verbal note indicating the nature of the subject matter available at that link would also make this information more available to those seeking it. Bus stop (talk) 14:27, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

The explanation for 10:08 is given briefly in Watch#Analog. Astronaut (talk) 15:00, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm a strong inclusionist - but even so - the 10:08 article was poorly named, had no references and could just as easily (and usefully) become a part of other articles (as indeed it subsequently has). The information it contained needed to be included - AND referenced - but the article itself deserved to be deleted. SteveBaker (talk) 20:36, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Links on Talk Pages

Very often (I'm not sure - it might be all the time) when I click on a link on a Talk Page, my browser downloads a PHP file and doesn't take me to the link. Is there any way I can stop this happening (using Google Chrome now, but I also found it on Firefox 3.1). --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 09:09, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I've had similar problems with IE, perhaps you should ask this at the computing reference desk. --Drogonov (talk) 09:44, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

It's really a help desk issue. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 09:46, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I get this with FireFox occasionally: I think it is a connection or server lag issue. An incomplete connection causes the browser to see the raw PHP and attempt to download it. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 14:59, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Company names

Though I am in the UK this may be an international issue, but has anybody got any idea why long established companies like Norwich Union, HSA, British Steel etc feel the need to change their company name. It must cost a fortune to do so.--81.170.40.155 (talk) 10:41, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Norwich Union is changing because it has been bought by Aviva, which presumably feels that it will be better placed if all of its operations worldwide have the same name. I appreciate the point you're making - it is expensive and appears to waste the goodwill and recognition value of the departing name. I guess the owners think the long term benefits outweigh the short term costs & loss.

HSA - "part of a family of organisations with mutual values who have joined together to form Simplyhealth. During 2009, we will be changing our name to Simplyhealth as we believe this better describes who we are and the services we offer." according to their website.

British Steel - bought out by Corus. Same explanation as for Norwich Union, except to add that British Steel had such a crappy history prior to privatisation that I'd guess there was little goodwill attached to the name.

There's a little more at Rebranding --Tagishsimon (talk) 10:49, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Note Norwich Union has been part of Aviva since July 2002 and has been trading on the stock-markets as Aviva for a number of years too (since that date). 194.221.133.226 (talk) 13:38, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Some companies build up long long names which, when the nature of their business changes, appears a little cumbersome.

In Taiwan, in recent years there has been another interesting phenomenon - political renaming. Due to historical reasons, many companies and other institutions which operate only in Taiwan are named "China so-and-so" or "Chinese so-and-so". The more independence-leaning politicians find this inappropriate, and in the early 2000s there was a spate of changes: see, for some example, Desinicization. The trend has apparently halted since the election of a Chinese reunification-leaning President and parliament last year. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 11:09, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, but what took you so long to reply (ha ha!)--81.170.40.155 (talk) 11:12, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

...and where the h ell did that blue box come from?--81.170.40.155 (talk) 11:14, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

That is what happends if the first character in a line is the spacebar. Fixed. Excirial ^{(Contact me,Contribs)} 11:40, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

As Tagihsimon said, not all names have a lot of goodwill attached. A good example would be Blackwater/Xe. Other companies may have some degree or mergers/splits/etc and change name. E.g. BenQ which was formerly called [8] "Acer Communication and Multimedia" and part of Acer [9]. Then there's the interesting case of Accenture who were required to change their name as a result of arbitration and splitting from Andersen Worldwide due to disputes with Arthur Andersen who they used to be a division of but had split with a while back and they were probably glad of the change after the Enron scandal which blew up after they renamed. Also there's cases like AT&T or ASB Bank where the initialism of acronym may have stood for something but most people now called the company solely by the initialism/acronym and the company may embrace that because whatever it stood for is no longer meaningful. A related case is Malaysia Airlines who still go by MAS in some situations, which used to stand for Malaysian Airline System but now only Malaysian Airlines which I would say is a better sounding name Nil Einne (talk) 12:27, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

It sometimes happens with products: Here in the UK Marathon became Snickers, Opal Fruits became Starburst, Oil of Ulay became Oil of Olay and so on. Astronaut (talk) 14:48, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

It seems that Mars, Incorporated (read the section 'Mars Limited') renamed several of its products in 1990. Flamarande (talk) 18:33, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned "tactical rebranding" (article needed), which was the fate of Townsend Thoresen, Ratners, and Windscale--Shantavira|^{feed me} 07:59, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

US economy without population growth

How might US economic and monetary policy have to change if the population stopped growing? NeonMerlin 14:22, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

One of the biggest problems countries face when population growth declines is an increase in the average age. That means the proportion of the country claiming pensions (in the US, this is call Social Security) increases compared to the proportion working. That means the amount current workers need to contribute in order to pay those that have retired increases, which either requires an increase in the total tax burden (or increased borrowing) or a decrease in other government spending. --Tango (talk) 16:04, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I heard on the radio yesterday that in Germany, the old-age pension system is pay-as-you-go, as it is in the USA; and currently 3 workers support every 1 retiree; but in 20 years it looks like it's going to be 1 worker supporting every 1 retiree. There will have to be a higher tax rate, a reduction in benefits, or a new invention that creates free, unlimited energy that solves all the world's problems. Tempshill (talk) 00:12, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I thought that this was already happening in the US because of all the baby boomers not having as many kids as their parents did. Dismas|^(talk) 02:03, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Machines and robots also age, but politician's brains stay firmly glued to the first industrial revolution. In the "West" machines now work for xyz persons, and this might even, in the long run be noticed by politicians trying to figure out who will pay our pensions.--Radh (talk) 12:11, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

An aging population also means there are fewer young people who need to be supported. Those three workers are not only supporting 1 retiree. They are also directly supporting their own children, and indirectly supporting all children in the country. With fewer children, less will be spent on schools, medical services, vaccinations, and welfare payments/dependent deductions. This money will be freed up to support the retirees. There will also be more workers, as fewer children means women can spend more of their adult lives in paid employment. Countries with an aging population prospect are also encouraging or legislating for superannuation schemes (eg 401K) to make more retirees self-funded.KoolerStill (talk) 20:55, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Since the question is not about aging or slowing but an actual stop to population growth, the answer is going to be either a decline in economic growth, or a change in the make-up of that growth. Growth requires inputs, specifically labor, capital and technology. If the input of labor stops growing -- which is not the same as aging, declining labor force or anything other than stable-state labor input -- either growth will slow, or the other factors will have to increase so as to make up the difference. Immigration, for example, increases the labor component which (all else being equal) increases growth. DOR (HK) (talk) 10:03, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

British House of Commons > Speaker's logo

[10] Does anyone know where I could find either a larger version of the symbol on that page, or a vectory-PDF containing it? Thanks! ╟─TreasuryTag►contribs─╢ 15:46, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

File:House_of_Commons_logo.PNG --Sean 17:43, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, I was more generally referring to the Speaker's logo, which is the logo containing the Portcullis, the Mace, and the words "The Speaker"... :P ╟─TreasuryTag►contribs─╢ 17:46, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Cell phone as a component

If a manufacturer wants to incorporate a cell-phone into its products (for example, a manufacturer of hardware wants that its servers send a SMS through the cell-phone net), should it buy a normal (for the consumer market) cell-phone and attach it to the product? Or are there any providers of only a basic cell-phone at the market? A cell-phone without screen, keyboard, loudspeakers, battery.--Mr.K. (talk) 15:50, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

They would almost certainly want to buy the relevant components directly from a cell-phone manufacturer and build them directly into the product. I don't see how you could attach a phone, how would you connect them? Do phones have some kind of API you could use? --Tango (talk) 16:00, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Some cell-phones can be connected through USB. If a product has a computer that should not be a problem, since the computer can dial a number through this connection.--Mr.K. (talk) 16:08, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Looks like you can readily buy a GSM module that can interface with the rest of your electronics. For a soldering-not-desired applications there are also wireless modems that plug into various standard computer ports. 62.78.198.48 (talk) 16:10, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Under my laptop's battery is a little slot which takes a SIM card which would normally go in a phone. If I wanted to, I could subscribe to a mobile internet data service and access the internet anywhere I can get a mobile phone signal. Astronaut (talk) 16:35, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Metal box by the side of the road

I see them once in awhile. They have one or two rubber tubes sticking out perpendicular to traffic flow which are securely affixed to the roadway. They stay there for a week or two then disappear. I know they are used to monitor traffic, but what are they called? Do they measure speed, or traffic volume, or both? Oftentimes they are followed by a new stop sign or traffic light. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.36.216.233 (talk) 20:34, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I think they measure traffic volume. There are usually two so they can tell which direction the cars are going in (by which order they apply weight to the cables). --Tango (talk) 20:37, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes - although the doubled ones can also measure speed. The rubber strips are hollow tubes and inside the box there is an air pressure sensor. When you drive over the strip, compressing it, the pressure sensor registers the fact and the box counts 1/2 of a car for the front wheels and 1/2 of a car for the back ones. Big trucks, people pulling trailers and things with more than two axles mess up the count - but they generally aren't after an exact number of vehicles, just a general idea of how busy the road is at different times of day. Some of these contraptions have two strips - and with that they can measure the time between you hitting the first and second strip and deduce the speed and direction from that. I'm told that they can even figure out whether you're accelerating or slowing down by measuring the difference in speed between when the front and back wheels hit the strip. SteveBaker (talk) 21:13, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

A traffic counter? Nanonic (talk) 22:36, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Humans born and died

Roughly, how many humans are born per minute? And, roughly, how many died per minute?--Reticuli88 (talk) 20:50, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

According to birth rate, approximately 134 million babies were born in 2007. That works out at about 255 per minute. According to mortality rate, that current world rate is about 8.23 per 1000 per year. The current world population is about 6.8 billion, so that works out to 56 million a year. That's 106 per minute. --Tango (talk) 21:02, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

We're doomed. Tempshill (talk) 20:28, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

see carrying capacity Rangermike (talk) 21:56, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

If one were forced to listen to the sounds of all those babies being born and the sounds of all those people dying, let us say through some kind of electronic, worldwide setup, piped into one's ears via ear plugs, would it be considered a worse form of torture than water-boarding? Bus stop (talk) 22:04, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Very probably :-) Astronaut (talk) 16:21, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Do any Wikipedia mirrors do anything useful?

Do any of the sites copying Wikipedia content offer anything I can't get from Wikipedia itself (or Google cache if WP is down)? Cause it seems like they just clutter up search results for no purpose. 86.174.136.167 (talk) 21:39, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Nope. One or two make lip-service at improving their copies of the articles - but without a way to automatically merge in changes we make here - that just means that they get outdated horribly quickly. It's kinda ironic...one of Wikipedia's great claims to fame is that we allow people to make copies - but in the end, any possible benefits from that got kinda wiped out by our own success. SteveBaker (talk) 23:02, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Once, and only once, I found one useful. I had created a diagram for an article. Someone flagged it for deletion because they didn't think my sourcing information was sufficient, and I was never notified about the proposed deletion. It got deleted, and when that occurs on Wikipedia, there's no undelete. One of the awful mirrors had it, though, so I salvaged it. It would be nice if Google would hammer them all downward in the search results. Tempshill (talk) 00:09, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Was that some time ago? I think admins can undelete images now. --Tango (talk) 00:15, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it was quite a while ago, thanks for the info. Tempshill (talk) 04:00, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Offline copies are useful. Online copies can serve as backups, but I can't see how they would ever be anything more. --Tango (talk) 00:15, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Theoretically, any of them could become a major fork if Wikipedia ever became evil. APL (talk) 01:30, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Isn't it the clone with the suspiciously glowing red eyes that you have to worry about? Here we have an entire army of clones! SteveBaker (talk) 02:30, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

In terms of being usefully reproduced elsewhere, Wikipedia's images end up having a huge amount of useful traction in the outside world (you see them all sorts of places—if you are an academic, you quickly notice that almost everyone's Powerpoint images come from Wikipedia for undergrad lectures, and even many academic books feature created-for-Wikipedia images in them). So that sort of accomplishes the original goal quite well. The idea of text redistribution has not really panned out to a whole lot. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 02:15, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

It does to a degree. Just today, I copied a huge chunk out of the Quaternion article to put onto our company Wiki (with due accreditation of course). But photos are certainly more useful - I probably raid WikiCommons several times a week. There is definitely benefit to having this free resource - it just doesn't lie in cloning the entire thing, changing the font and slapping adverts all over it. SteveBaker (talk) 02:30, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes: I downloaded a copy of Wikipedia which is formatted to be easier to read on my Google Phone. The company that did the conversion was not Wikimedia, so I guess that's a mirror/fork. --Sean 16:32, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

http://www.answers.com/ not only mirrors Wikipedia content, it has content of its own. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 18:26, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Many of the offline copies load more quickly than Wikipedia, which can take a while over a slow connection. John M Baker (talk) 01:28, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

What have I missed?

I have been busy with coursework for the last few days and hadn't seen much of the news, then I suddenly discovered something seems to be going on. Apparently the government is about to be overthrown, noone is going to vote in the election, the queen is annoyed and the speaker of the house of commons is going to be thrown out. What is going on here?

148.197.114.207 (talk) 21:51, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

There are calls for a general election, but the government isn't anywhere near being overthrown. There has been a big scandal over MPs making unreasonable expenses claims and the speaker hasn't been strong enough in working towards reform of the expenses system and has annoyed quite a lot of MPs with how he has handled the whole situation. Some MPs filed a motion of no confidence in him so he resigned to avoid such a divisive issue harming the House of Commons (and causing something of a constitutional crisis - the standard way of getting rid of speakers is chopping their heads off, and that option doesn't really exist these days!). No-one ever votes in European elections, so there's no great change there. I don't know how the Queen feels about the whole thing, she usually keeps her political opinions to herself. --Tango (talk) 22:35, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

We do (of course) have an article: Disclosure of expenses of British Members of Parliament. --Tango (talk) 22:37, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I saw that in passing when I was having breakfast this morning, but couldn't make head or tale of it as I've not been following the news much in the last week or so. I'd be interested to know what's happening, too. Is there going to be an election? "disOrder! disOrder! I say disORDER!" --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 02:58, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

David Cameron has called for an election, supposedly to restore public confidence in the government, but a lot of people have noted that the expenses abuse has been completely cross party. In which case, why would we have any more confidence in the Tories or Lib Dems? They were all just as bad. Hence, how could anyone vote for anyone? So, we shall see. Of course, we could vote in an entirely new crop of MPs who have never been in the House before.... Noting the headlines on discarded free newspapers the last week or so has been wonderfully filmic. 80.41.33.31 (talk) 07:23, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Nothing very dramatic is happening at all. Cameron has been calling for an election for months. I think maybe the OP has been reading the paper.Popcorn II (talk) 08:29, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand why the Speaker has been forced out of office, though. Why is he being held culpable for the perceived dishonesty or greed of individual MPs? Is he supposed to police the expenses system or what? --Richardrj ^{talk email} 08:35, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I think I've said this before, but I'll say it again, as no-one gave me a round of applause. :) What's the difference between a yarn an old lady spins and a yarn a politician spins? One's a ball of wool. :) --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 10:31, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Did you miss the sound of one hand clapping?DOR (HK) (talk) 10:07, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it would appear that the Speaker's Office is reponsible for the regulation of MPs expenses. Expenses are submitted to this office, and it seems that no real checking for applicability has been going on. His staff are civil servants, not accountants or auditors. --TammyMoet (talk) 11:04, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

From the article Tango linked: "In the aftermath of the Speaker's statement to MPs, questions were widely raised regarding Martin's future in the job,[165][166] largely due to his focusing on the actual leak of information, rather than the expenses themselves, and due to his response to the point of order raised by the Labour MP Kate Hoey, who suggested that the Speaker and Commons' decision to call in the police was "an awful waste of resources".[167] A Conservative MP, Douglas Carswell, subsequently announced that he planned to table a motion of no confidence in the Speaker, if he could garner sufficient support.[168]"

Does this help? 80.41.33.31 (talk) 11:04, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

When was Owen Hart's time of death?

I know that this Saturday, May 23rd, would make the 10th anniversary of Owen Hart's death. I'm just wondering, what was the exact time of death of Owen Hart? I live in the Central Time Zone, so what was Owen Hart's time of death? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sirdrink13309622 (talk • contribs) 22:40, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

According to our article on Owen Hart, he was pronounced dead on arrival at Truman Medical Center. The live event, Over the Edge, was scheduled to start at 8pm EDT according to this poster, which would be 7pm in the Central Time Zone. I know of no official time of death, but I would surmise it was sometime between his fall (after 8pm) and his arrival at the hospital shortly thereafter. Coreycubed (talk) 23:33, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

The article actually says "Hart had actually died while still being tended to in the ring." - so presumably it was quite soon after he fell. So - probably shortly after 8pm Eastern time (7pm Central). SteveBaker (talk) 12:16, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Although the information in a sentence that is inserted in the article in that way, with parenthesis and no citations, should be read with caution. --Saddhiyama (talk) 12:33, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

May 20

Shop census in Pakistan

Some times some census are made by NGOs or government, I am working in a company workin as Distributor, So I need shop census for all the cities & towns, how many shops are there & what kind of business they have. If there is possible I will also appreciate that clasification (A class,B class etc)included. I heard about Aftab Associates that they have all kind of census for Pakistan but I did not found thier web site. Yousuf Ilyas —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yousuf Ilyas (talk • contribs) 07:49, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

fr:Boîte à meuh

Hello,

Someone asked if there's some article in WP:EN (and other languages) about this thing, to set interwikis. It asked that because he doesn't know the local name of this box.

Thanks a lot in advance for your answers. Olivier Hammam (talk) 10:04, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Bonjour,

Quelqu'un a demandé sur WP:FR s'il y a un article dans WP:EN (et pour d'autres langages) sur cet objet, pour placer des liens Interwikis. Il le demandait car il ignore le nom anglais de l'objet.

Merci d'avance pour toute réponse. Olivier Hammam (talk) 10:04, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

So this is one of those toys where you turn it upside down and it makes a "moo!" sound like a cow. Hence "Boite a meuh" is a "Box that moo's". Sadly, I don't think there is a name for those kinds of toys in English. This web site [11] calls them (variously) "Moo Cow In The Box", "Toy Country Cow Voice Can", "Animal's Cry Cow Toy Noisemakers" - but I can't find English language Wikipedia articles about any of those things. SteveBaker (talk) 12:10, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the answer. Olivier Hammam (talk) 13:23, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Digital zoom in digital cameras

Does it have a purpose or is it complete useless? Apparently I don't see any use to it, you can always process the pics afterwards, can't you?Mr.K. (talk) 14:56, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Digital zoom is basically cropping the image before you take it. I agree, it is pretty much useless. If you are photographing something very small/far away it can help you see it better to line up the shot, but I think that's about it. --Tango (talk) 15:04, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict)It's pretty much completely useless. An optical zoom actually gives you a more detailed image of the area, a digital zoom just uses software to enlarge the area. You get "bigger pixels", so to speak, but you don't get any more actual detail in the image itself. You can get the same (or, more often than not, better) effect simply be enlarging the picture in Photoshop or some other program. However, depending on the camera and image settings, having the camera do it with digital zoom may sometimes offer better quality than doing it in Photoshop, if the image is processed by the camera before it's stored on the camera's memory card a format with a lossy compression method. However, if the camera stores the images in raw format, this advantage goes away. Optical zoom will always offer a better quality image than digital zoom. Of course, for many users none of this may be a concern, they just want to zoom in for compositional reasons and don't really care that much about the picture quality. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 15:07, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Digital zoom has a very important use, which is persuading the naive camera buyer that your camera has a better zoom capability than it really does. These days the lack of usefulness of digital zoom is well enough known that naive has to mean someone who hasn't read anything at all about how to buy a digital camera. DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:19, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

The above is pretty much right in general. Not every photographer has photoshop or the desire to post-process their images or do the cropping so for those folks the digital zoom may serve a beneficial purpose. Similarly if it means that people feel they can take a photo they previously felt they couldn't that's a benefit to them. These are pretty flimsy reasons and i'm 99% certain that the reason it is included by camera manufacturers is so they can over-inflate the zoom-capability of their camera to the naive/average Joe that just wants a camera for holidays and special ocassions as has no knowledge (or care) about features and 'quality'. ny156uk (talk) 16:22, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

If you're planning to crop the photo afterwards, using the digital zoom will allow you to compose/frame the shot and may improve automatic calculation of exposure, white balance, etc, by only focusing on the area you're interested in (although the camera software might be really stupid and not do this). Another factor is that images are normally compressed in cheap digital cameras (and cameraphones) and using the digital zoom may result in lower compression or some interpolation making the image slightly more detailed than the crop of a full-frame image (although on my cameraphone the digital zoom image often looks worse than the cropped unzoomed image, I'm not sure why). Plus it saves memory for stored images, may be quicker to process and store, etc. Of course it's more for low-end cameras and it's only useful if the alternative is taking a full-frame image and subsequently cropping it: it's no substitute for an optical zoom. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.172.19.20 (talk) 17:21, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree with 193; I use digital zoom sometimes in the hope that the white balance and even the autofocus might improve because the camera knows to only consider the area I've digitally zoomed in on. Tempshill (talk) 20:26, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Gulet captain

What qualifications do I need to skipper a gulet with paying passengers in Turkey and Greece —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.70.172.254 (talk) 20:16, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Companies that hire out boats will doubtless be able to tell you the full legal requirements: they may differ between countries, e.g. because Turkey is not part of the European Union. BrainyBabe (talk) 22:58, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

You might need to have training as captain or officer, and furthermore - first aid, safety at sea, fire prevention, SAR, navigation, communication... when my father was a sailor (he's retired now) he needed to renew a dozen or so (I'm not kidding) similar certificates every few years. Concur with BrainyBabe - ask directly at the company you're aiming to work for. --Ouro (blah blah) 06:02, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Clothing

What are these guys wearing on their arms? Some confusion has arisen over their name during a discussion of arm-length dragonscale vambraces. 90.193.232.41 (talk) 22:29, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

The guy on the left seems to be wearing compression arm sleeves with holes in them. The guy on the right seems to be wearing compression elbow sleeves with his forearms and wrists wrapped with the wraps used by athletic trainers (a cheaper, disposable version of an Ace bandage).--droptone (talk) 12:19, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Vimescarrot (talk) 15:56, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

May 21

A question about Silent Hill 4: The Room...

When I was surfing on YouTube, I came across a gameplay clip of Silent Hill 4: The Room. And then I saw that there was a huge face of Eileen in one of the rooms of some corridor. It was quite strange. How did Eileen's face get like that, and what does it suppose to mean? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sirdrink13309622 (talk • contribs) 03:17, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, it's not literally Eileen's head. If you want to inject a bit of symbolism, it could refer to how Henry has been spying on Eileen; now she's staring at him for a change. Or it could represent Henry's obsession with Eileen. Or something else. There's no clear-cut explanation for it; it's also possible that they stuck it in there just to freak people out. That has certainly been a common reaction among players. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 11:44, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Taking a Bicycle onto a Plane

I'm moving to Korea soon, and want to take my mountain bike with me. What is the protocol (generally) for taking a bike on a plane? I know each airline has its own rules, but generally what happens? I don't know which airline it is, because it's being booked for me, and we haven't got to that stage yet (still sorting out work visa). Does anyone know what happens here? Or would it just be cheaper to buy one when I get there? --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 04:42, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

For me, Googling carrying a bike on a plane led to this thread and this random web page and about 108,000 other search results. They seemed informative. Tempshill (talk) 05:14, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I took a bike on a plane from Canada to Texas and back. I did it by putting it in a bike box that I borrowed from a friend. It looked exactly like the picture at the top left of this site: [12]. I think it was pretty expensive new (about $400 Canadian) but I think you can rent them in some places and would probably be much cheaper used (assuming you could find one). The airline charged me $80 extra to ship it, I don't know what it would cost for a trans-Pacific flight. The year earlier I tried shipping the same bike Fed Ex, which didn't work out too well. I had to spend hours wrapping it up, it still ended up taking some damage and it was more expensive than the fee the airline charged (about $120 I think). So if it's an expensive bike you are fond of, it might be worth getting a bike box and paying the airline fee, but if its an old beater and you just want an old beater once you get there it'll probably make more sense to buy a new one there. TastyCakes (talk) 05:40, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I should add that the bike box worked great - it was very easy to pack it and the bike seemed very protected in it. I'd recommend one for anyone that's planning on doing a lot of airplane traveling with a bike, if the price isn't prohibitive. TastyCakes (talk) 05:45, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Good info. I'll see what happens. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 13:35, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Most airlines have baggage handling information on their website. For example, going to the United Airlines website and poking around found a "Special Items" section under "Baggage" in the "Services & Information" area. There they list bicycles, saying "Any non-motorized bicycle must be prepared for travel by the customer. United cannot provide tools. Handlebars must be turned sideways, and protruding pedals and accessories must be removed. The bicycle must be contained in a durable, protective case, bag or box. Maximum weight: 50 pounds (23 kilograms) Other information: Allow an extra 30 minutes at check-in." I would check the site for the airlines you're flying. They may impose additional restrictions, especially for international travel. If all else fails, I'd recommend calling them. They last thing you want to happen is to show up for your flight and have your bicycle refused. -- 128.104.112.117 (talk) 16:07, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Cheers. As soon as the details of my ticket come through I'll know which airline it is, then I can phone up and ask. Cheers, mate! --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 23:47, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

considering the extra-luggage charge and the hassle, would it not be easier to ship it? When moving countries, i've always taken one suitcase and had everything bulky shipped (preferably paid for by a new employer!).YobMod 09:08, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I have a friend (in the UK) who cycled across the USA. After looking at shipping costs he found out that it was cheaper to buy a mid-range bike in the USA. After his cycle trip he donated the now well-used bike to a church before flying home. Obviously if you already have a top of the range bike this won't apply, but it may be worth looking at costs of new equivalent bikes as an alternative -- Q Chris (talk) 09:32, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

If you'll be in Korea for some time, I would strongly suggest shipping the bike. Airlines charge a huge premium for you to have it when you first arrive (assuming it isn't lost!). Shipping it a few days earlier should get it there pretty soon after you arrive. DOR (HK) (talk) 10:14, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Most redirects?

Is there any way to find out which wiki page has the most redirects directed at it? Aaadddaaammm (talk) 12:12, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

• Template:Notwiki --Drogonov (talk) 14:56, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I suggest you ask at the Wikipedia Help Desk, not these reference desks. BrainyBabe (talk) 16:19, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

• Here is a list from 2007 http://pastey.net/30373 not sure if there is any way other than a similar SQL query on the current database. meltBanana 18:30, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Weird Car Problem

Hello again...

Last night my car was running the heater on FULL BLAST. But that's not the weird part. The key was NOT IN THE IGNITION, NOR WAS THE IGNITION TURNED TO "ON" OR "ACC" AND THE HEATER CONTROLS WERE ALL SET TO OFF. Turning the car to "ACC" turned off the heater, but I don't want this to happen while I'm not home and kill my battery. OnStar said that nothing was wrong. Obviously something is wrong and would like someone to tell me what was wrong.

PS DON'T give me answers like "It was a Ghost."

Thanks.  Buffered Input Output 13:06, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Not to sound rude, but maybe it'd be best to not turn to OnStar for this, and maybe take it into a shop to get it checked out..? Yes, it might cost a bit, but at least it'd be cheaper than buying a whole new car, right? ^^ Gothrokkprincess (talk) 15:47, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Are you sure it wasn't the cooling fan running after the car is switched off? The fan can often run for quite a while after the car is switched off to bring the engine down to a reasonable temperature. Dmcq (talk) 17:42, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

That would have been my first guess too - but the OP says it went off when the key was turned to ACC - so that can't be it. The most obvious thing is that there is an electrical short somewhere - but that doesn't explain why it went off when you turned the key to ACC either. I suppose, if your radiator fan broke and if the car's computer could detect that - it might maybe be smart enough to put the heater on full as a last-ditch effort to save the engine block...but that would be surprising - and it still doesn't really explain why it would turn off again when the ignition switch was set to ACC. What kind of car is it? How old is it? SteveBaker (talk) 19:58, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm legally blind, so I dont' even know what the ACC part means, but my mom had a small creature, a raccoon or something, get inside her engine once. Could some animal have gotten inside and accidentallyy triggered something that tripped the heater switch, then scurried out? (And, that concludes my knowledge of cars :-) Somebody or his brother (talk) 23:25, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure what "ACC" is short for, but I believe they are referring to the position you can turn the key to short of actually starting the engine that just turns on the electrics. --Tango (talk) 23:29, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Since it apparently only happened once, there is the possibility that turning the key and the heater stopping were unrelated and just happened at the same time by coincidence. It doesn't seem likely at first glance, but if no-one can think of another explanation then perhaps we should take a lesson from a certain Mr. Holmes. --Tango (talk) 23:29, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

"ACC" is short for "Accessories". This position will enable you to power things like the windows and radio, without powering the ignition system. Bunthorne (talk) 04:42, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

On my Honda ACC stands for 'Assisted Cruise Control'--81.170.40.155 (talk) 05:22, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Could it have been condensation or a leak? You can get strange effects if water creates contacts where it shouldn't go. (OR We had a car start once because water dripped onto the ignition. Spooky!) Powering up the system might have given the current a path of less resistance and evaporated the water drop. 71.236.24.129 (talk) 10:51, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

V sign for survival

I watched on a survival video somewhere that people should make a V sign out of fire, to attract airplanes' attention in the desert. Why "V"? --Jackofclubs (talk) 13:17, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

It is the simplist way of indicating that the fire is man made.86.219.162.216 (talk) 13:25, 21 May 2009 (UTC)DT

Distress signals are generally based around the number three (or sometimes six, eg. the Alpine distress signal). Three blows on a whistle, three flashes of light, triangles of reflective material, etc. A V kind of makes a triangle but is a little easier to make (being 2/3 the size), so I guess that is why it is used. --Tango (talk) 17:10, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

It is a giant arrow pointing at you. 65.121.141.34 (talk) 20:36, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Is that a guess or do you have a reason for thinking that? I don't recall being taught to stand at the tip of the V. --Tango (talk) 21:07, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I find that kind of dubious. I mean, what are the odds of someone coming along, looking around and deciding that since there isn't anyone standing at the tip, it must be a false alarm? -- Captain Disdain (talk) 23:18, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Is Popeye Banned in China?

Question as title. Cheers! --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 13:34, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

The cartoon or the chicken? Recury (talk) 16:58, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

If they are smart, it is the chicken. 65.121.141.34 (talk) 20:35, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

What chicken? I mean the cartoon, anyway. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 21:55, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

There's a chicken franchise called Popeye's that I believe is in California and points around there, we've never had any where I am. Somebody or his brother (talk) 23:20, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Ha! Right. I've never heard of it. I'm from the UK. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 23:45, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

No. He's called 大力水手 in Chinese (um, the big-strengthed sailor?). The cartoons used to be broadcast on TV, and it's still a well-known cartoon character.

Popeye was the cause of a prominent political imprisonment case in Taiwan: see Bo Yang. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 00:35, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Where's this from?

Me and a friend were talking about Wonderland, and making references from it, and he brought something up, that I'm unsure where it's from, or what it's supposed to mean.

"I live in your heart and die in your eyes." Gothrokkprincess (talk) 15:44, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

You'll have to specify whether by "Wonderland" you mean the movie about filthy, sleazy porn or the 28th worst song ever or something else. Tempshill (talk) 17:07, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

... Alice In Wonderland. Gothrokkprincess (talk) 18:12, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Are you asking whether that line is in the book? I don't think so; it doesn't have the right feel at all and sure doesn't sound familiar to me. Matt Deres (talk) 19:52, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, that doesn't sound anything like the book. Tempshill (talk) 22:40, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

The closest quote I could find was "I will live in thy heart, die in thy lap, and be buried in thy eyes", from William Shakespeare's Much Ado About Nothing (text). -- Tcncv (talk) 00:00, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Reaction effect

In this game, is it possible to create an infinite loop? Nadando (talk) 19:28, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I do not think so. It appears that continuous activity would eventually need to involve cells beyond the defined limits. Assume we have an infinite loop involving a finite set of cells. One or more of those cells can be categorized as an upper-left cell, defined as one with no participating cells above or to its left. Eventually, one of those cells will rotate so that the connections are oriented up and left to the non-participating cells. That cell will then be "out of the game" not participating in further activity, thus reducing the set of participating cells. As this situation repeats, the number of participating cells will eventually reach zero. Only action by a cell outside the original set would get things moving again, which implies that the set cannot be finite. That doesn't mean it could run for a very long time though. The 16×16 collection shown has 4^16×16 = 2⁵¹² ≈ 10¹⁵⁴ states.

I'm not sure if this constitutes a proof. Perhaps those on the mathematics desk might like to take a crack at it. -- Tcncv (talk) 23:41, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

It sounds rigorous enough to me. --Tango (talk) 16:51, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

black "g $" stamp on 100 bill

i got a $100 bill (US0 on on the top right corner (reverse side) there is a black stamp "G $" is all it is. what is it? a bank stamp? is it from the printer? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.98.64.15 (talk) 19:59, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

People stamp money with all kinds of stuff. There is not likely any discernible reason for that particular stamp. And as a bit of trivia, it is not a $100 bill, it is a $100 Federal Reserve note. A bill is what you get in exchange for using electricity. 65.121.141.34 (talk) 20:35, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

wikt:bill, etymology 3, item 5. wikt:pedant. --LarryMac | Talk 21:01, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

(ec) In US English, "bill" also means a banknote. --Tango (talk) 21:05, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

When Australian currency went decimal in 1966, the public education campaign included a cartoon character called "Dollar Bill". -- JackofOz (talk) 22:34, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

You get all kinds of thing stamped and written on banknotes. People write numbers of them to help them keep count when counting money, but I can't think what "G" would mean (I initially thought "grand", but that would only be 10 notes, hardly worth a stamp). --Tango (talk) 21:05, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I bet it is G as in Gangster. You know, OG and all that. You have some bona fide gangster money, maybe it was used to buy drugs or the services of a prostitute. Either way best not put it in your mouth. 161.222.160.8 (talk) 22:25, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

'Gay Dollars'? I once read that some gay-rights/pride-type group were stamping money with such - some sort of 'our money is as good as anyone's' statement and possibly to annoy people who don't like gays. --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 22:43, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Possibly, though it's a long shot, it has to do with Wheresgeorge.com. Although, the people stamping bills for that aren't generally that enigmatic. Dismas|^(talk) 03:31, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

The top of a wad of bills usually gets marked with a mark for the register it came from or for the person who counted the money from the tray. When the money is machine counted later and there's a difference, the manager can identify where it came from. 71.236.24.129 (talk) 10:37, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Why would you put $100 notes into a register? You can't really give it as change.65.121.141.34 (talk) 13:10, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

You've got to put them somewhere. The register seems the obvious place. It's more secure than a money bag under the counter, which is the only other option I can think of. --Tango (talk) 13:54, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

If it is a customer spending them, yes they obviously would go into the register. However, the comment before was that the stack would be marked on top, and then placed into the register, which makes no sense for larger denominations, unless of course the customer is spending $2,500 in cash? 65.121.141.34 (talk) 14:36, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

No, the comment said the stack that came from the register would be stamped and then go to be counted. --Tango (talk) 14:54, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Could it be a "Where's George?" marker? Not that $100s are usually so tracked, but it has been known to happen. Go there and check the serial number to see if it's listed. — Michael J 16:14, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't see the earlier comment. I'm a goof! — Michael J 16:15, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

The Good Ship Lifestyle

Does anyone know the place names that the girl speaks at the beginning (and at some point in the middle) of the song 'The Good Ship Lifestyle' by Chumbawamba? --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 23:44, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

This youtube vid's lyrics say it is "Pharohs, Bailey, Pharoh, Heppertes, Rally, Ruffle, Challen, Soh, Travelga, Fiddister, Irisy, Fiscay, Umber, Forfend, Promity forth time", but I'd correct it. They're all islands. "Faroes, Bailey, Fair Isle, Hebrides, Raleigh (Mallee?), Rockall, Channel, Sole??, Trafalgar, Finnister, Irish Sea, Biscay, Humber?, Portland??, ?? . Maybe someone can get the rest of them? Steewi (talk) 02:31, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Correction: they're not all islands, but places to take a cruise ship to. Steewi (talk)

02:32, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh, the ones in the middle of the song (from about 2.50) are different: I hear Viking, Thames, Dover, and at least three more. Steewi (talk) 02:37, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Sounds more like weather forecast areas to me.--81.170.40.155 (talk) 05:20, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

They're areas from the shipping forecast. Dalliance (talk) 08:25, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

So, does this mean neither KageTora nor Steewi have ever listened to the shipping forecast? That's... remarkable. 89.168.85.22 (talk) 10:55, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

There's nothing very remarkable about people outside the UK not having listened to a UK originated & centred weather forecast. Given that it is only broadcast on a single station in the UK, there's nothing remarkable about people within the UK being unfamiliar with it. --Tagishsimon (talk) 10:59, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, except that KageTora at least is British. I misread Steewi's page :P Given the nature of the station which broadcasts the shipping forecast, and given the general reaction when they reduced the number of broadcasts over FM, I would consider it something to remark upon that someone KageTora's age had never heard it. I was hoping for some amusing story as to why (parents considered the BBC to be Satan incarnate, allergic to radios, etc), but there we go. 89.168.85.22 (talk) 11:33, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

... and now I have the Sailing By earworm. Curse this thread ! Gandalf61 (talk) 12:05, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

For the record the correct names from the lyrics are:Faeroes, Bailey, Fair Isle, Hebrides, Malin, Rockall, Shannon, Sole, Trafalgar, Finisterre, Irish Sea, Biscay, Humber, Portland, Cromarty, Tyne DJ Clayworth (talk) 13:54, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

May 22

Trees

You often see many companies claiming to plant 10,000 trees etc, despite all this why is that forest cover is still going down?How do you verify such claims? sumal (talk) 03:08, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Unless you go and physically count the trees they claim to have planted, or you have some evidence to suggest they could not possibly have planted as many trees as they claim, I don't think you can verify it. You have to take it on trust, I guess. -- JackofOz (talk) 03:52, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Well trees are still being cut down in their billions for our use so 100 companies planting 10,000 trees does not a sustainable forest make. Usually you will find that in these circumstances the company will make donations to a firm that agree to do the work. For example often you'll see a "1p from every X will got to Y", my understanding is that the firms do not track sales (since it would be difficult to know as they will mostly sell to retailers rather than consumers directly) but rather that based on their estimates they make an appropriate donation to cover the usage. Will try find some sources to verify but certainly i've heard that policy being mentioned before. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 09:04, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Have you ever seen trees of this type being planted? Each little tree is about four inches high. Boy scout troops sometimes plant them as a project. to plant one, you make a slit in the ground with a small mattock, insert the root, and then close the slit by stamping your foot next to the slit. With practice, one boy scout can plant more than ten trees per minute. Ten thousand trees is a trivial effort and almost a meaningless number. It's better to count then number of acres. -Arch dude (talk) 09:39, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Americans use 2 billion trees per year for wood, paper, board, etc.[13] I can't find figures for the world, but it's maybe 10 times that. --Maltelauridsbrigge (talk) 10:15, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Even if the number of trees planted were equal to the number of trees chopped down, you would still have the problem that the trees you're chopping down are mature and the ones you're planting are seedlings. Forest ecosystems are destroyed when all the big trees are chopped down, and planting some tiny ones (whether in the same place or elsewhere) doesn't really fix that. Calliopejen1 (talk) 20:49, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Utilitarianism, Moral Relativism, and Moral Absolutism

According to utilitarianism, are standards of morality and ethics absolute or relative, objective or subjective? What do utilitarians think about moral relativism and moral subjectivism? What do moral relativists and moral subjectivists think about utilitarianism?

Bowei Huang (talk) 03:46, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Holes in survival knives

Why survival knives usually have holes in their blades?

I think it is just to make them lighter. --Tango (talk) 12:02, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

For fishing.

simple maps

Maps often have loads of detailed information and sometimes that isn't always needed. Is there a special term for streamlined maps that contain only the most basic information needed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.44.54.169 (talk) 16:06, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Needed for what? --Tango (talk) 16:42, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. If you want a topographic map, it's likely not to show where churches are. If you want a map for driving, then it is likely to show churches since they're major landmarks and thus aid navigation. So, what are you looking to do with these maps? Dismas|^(talk) 18:34, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Nothing in particular, I was just wondering if there was a generic name for very basic maps, rather than saying "very basic map" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.44.54.169 (talk) 19:22, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Yet, the question remains... A map of what? Dismas|^(talk) 19:45, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

There are different names for maps intended for different purposes. --Tango (talk) 19:47, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I think the OP is looking for a term that can be used to describe *any* map that has been pared to the bare essentials of its purpose, regardless of what that purpose is. (Not really describing the map itself, but rather the process of minimization, if you will.) I, for one, am not aware of any such term. The best example of the concept, though, is likely the London Underground Map, where the actual geography of London is simplified to emphasise the connectivity of the stations. - The original poster may have better luck asking at the Language Desk -- 128.104.112.117 (talk) 21:04, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

"Obama Would Move Some Terror Detainees to US"

What is so controversial about the possibility of moving terrorist suspects from Guantanamo to US prisons? The guys are prisoners. It’s not like they’re being released to their own devises on American soul. Why is there a controversy over this? --S.dedalus (talk) 16:31, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I think the controversy is that some of them may be released on US soil. They can only be transferred to a US prison if they are convicted (or at least charged) with some offence, which may not happen with all of them due to lack of evidence (or just lack of guilt, but that case isn't likely to worry anyone). Ideally such people would be returned to their country of origin or the country they last legally entered, but some of those countries aren't willing to accept them. As such, they would be a stateless person (that article actually mentions Guantanamo) and the US is obliged to keep them. --Tango (talk) 16:48, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

The irony is that, even though the naval base is on Cuban territory leased to the U.S. government, the detention facility inside is, in every sense of the term, "a U.S. prison". -- JackofOz (talk) 20:30, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

buying desert boots

I want to buy desert boots, but don't know where. I found Bates desert boots, but only in the US. Where can I find similar ones? Or perhaps something equivalent? I walk for long, long journeys, so they have to be good military style desert boots.--88.6.117.202 (talk) 18:42, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Your IP address seems to be from Barcelona, Spain. Is that were you wish the buy the boots? --Tango (talk) 18:52, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

It can be from an internet shop that delivers to Spain. --88.6.117.202 (talk) 19:16, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Lost ID information

Hello, I recently lost photocopies of my Canadian passport and drivers license. Should I be worried about identity theft? Is there anything I should do to minimize potential risks? 71.102.30.155 (talk) 19:26, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Where do you think you lost them? That could matter a great deal. Dismas|^(talk) 19:44, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I forgot them on a plane in the back pocket of the seat in front of me. I talked to the airline and they looked but didn't find them after. 71.102.30.155 (talk) 20:29, 22 May 2009 (UTC)