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August 4

Beavis and Butthead recently

Have any of you seen the episodes of Beavis and Butthead that has been on MTV2? It's the episodes sans the videos, with four segments in the half hour rather than two. What exactly is this? Torkmann (talk) 01:52, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Syndication? Nimur (talk) 02:14, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but the original episodes (with the videos) were in syndication on MTV2 for years. Torkmann (talk) 02:34, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Heh heh heh. Edison (talk)

The DVDs also omit the music-videos. Sad. One understands the licensing problem, but those included some of the best bits! —Tamfang (talk) 22:03, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Yep, MTV2 is now playing the versions from the DVDs. Even the closing credits are from the DVDs. Mike R (talk) 20:36, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Army basic training record

I attended Army basic training at Fort Leonard Wood Mo., beginning March 31, 1964. Throughout the training a photographer took pictures of many activities and at the end of the training you could purchase a "yearbook" of the training period. At the time I did not have any extra money to purchase the "book". I am looking for leads on how I might find a copy of this book. (I won the obstacle course competition for our entire training company). There were hundreds of soldiers who "graduated" that June who probably purchased a copy. I would like to borrow a copy to make a copy. This may be a needle in a haystack but thought I would try. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Farnorthvet (talk • contribs) 03:25, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Is it safe to assume you have tried to contact Fort Leonard Wood directly? - Here is their website: http://www.wood.army.mil/wood_cms/ Failing that, if you can remember the names of some of the other guys in your training company, have you tried looking them up in online telephone white pages or Googling them? Obviously, it might be easier to find a specific individual with an unusual name, than someone with a more common name (for example, there could be thousands of Bill Johnsons but not that many guys called Matt Zwicki) - I'm also thinking that some will probably be around 60 now and coming up for retirement from possibly quite senior positions in various corporations - a site like LinkedIn might help there. Astronaut (talk) 04:48, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Good advice though I'd use Facebook on that last point as well as LinkedIn. Facebook is the #1 social networking site in the US and is bound to be for quite some time. When you set up your profile, be sure to include a photo of yourself from back then as well as today; photos will make it more likely someone will contact you after you find them. Tempshill (talk) 05:13, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Books of that sort come up for sale on Ebay all the time. Old high school yearbooks, phone books from small towns 50 years ago, what have you. Create an Ebay account and it can email you when one comes up for sale. Edison (talk) 14:41, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I searched on Ebay for "Ft. Leonard Wood 1964" and up popped a [1] "1964 FT LEONARD WOOD ARMY TRAINING YEARBOOK CO. A" The sale runs another 3 days. It is for "COMPANY A SECOND BATTALION 2ND REGIMENT OF THE U S ARMY TRAINING CENTER ENGINEER." Here[2] is one for "1964 FT LEONARD WOOD MISSOURI ARMY TRAINING YEARBOOK. COMPANY B 1ST BATTALION 2D 9 APRIL 1964" Whatever group you were in is likely to have similar memorabilia come up for sale. Edison (talk) 03:26, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Future=now?

why is it important to apprehend the future needs of the consumers to stayy competitive in the market as a producer or service provider.Did APPLE do the same to get where it is now with no tough competeter? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.95.140.188 (talk) 07:07, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Please read the top of the page, specifically the bit about us not doing your homework for you. As for Apple computers, they DO have a tough competitor called Microsoft; Apple Records, the record company founded by the Beatles has plenty of competitors all round the world (see List of record labels); and Apple Bank has many competitors in New York including Citibank, Bank of America, and many others. Astronaut (talk) 07:54, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Also, apples are in competition with pears, oranges, etc. It's tough out there. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 07:57, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Having re-read the questions, and taking into account the OP not using English as their first language, maybe he meant "Why is it important to comprehend the future ..." and "Would Apple do the same to get where it is now ...". Astronaut (talk) 08:03, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Any company anywhere wants to be successful, obviously, and to be successful they have to find the market for a product. There were actually quite a few small computers around when Apple first came along. They slowly disappeared, like the Hupmobile and its brethren, until we are left with just two viable competitor types - the Apples and the IBM PC clones. It's the nature of business - from many manufacturers (broad-based competition) to just a few manufacturers (monopolistic competition). Economics 101. When there are a number of rival products that are ostensibly similar, various factors kick in, including marketing skills and, frankly, some luck. VHS won out over Beta, not necessarily because it was a better product as such (Beta's picture quality was said to be superior to VHS, as I recall) but because VHS was perceived to be more flexible (2-4-6 hours vs. just 2) and - fatally so - the perception in the market that VHS was the future. Self-fulfilling. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 08:28, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually - the main reason VHS won was because of Porn. Beta tapes were proprietary - a typical porn vendor couldn't get them - so porn went out on easily obtainable VHS. Since pre-recorded tapes (both porn and mainstream) were expensive, the rental market took off - and that couldn't sustain two formats, so the one that had the porn won. Beta was (technologically) a much better format - and others such as the Philips V2000 format were superior to both VHS and Beta - but by then it was all over. Sad - but true. SteveBaker (talk) 13:07, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Apple/IBM and Beta/VHS are both instructive. Apple and Betamax were both superior technologies kept proprietary. The PC and VHS were made open through licensing deals, allowing a far larger number of participants in the marketplace. Costs came down more quickly and more enterprises promoted the technology. Apple (the computer company) just barely survived as a company, but then got back the smart guy at the top and has since become resurgent by anticipating the customer desire for simplicity in consumer areas beside computers. Also, they figured out that people will buy a computer based on the colour of the casing, which was pretty smart from a marketing standpoint. Basically though, Apple survived long enough on their cashflow from fanatics to use the same brand name in other markets, using the same idea of simplicity in the user interface. Franamax (talk) 12:11, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

The Apple=Beta IBM=VHS analogy can be stretched too far. When Beta died, the change happened rapidly - in a matter of months, certainly not years. More instructively, when HD-DVD died and BluRay won, the change happened in about 2 weeks - a couple of key manufacturers flipped - and before you knew it the prices of HD-DVD players had dropped like a rock and stores had pretty much removed the actual media from their shelves. People who'd bet on the wrong horse were kicking themselves - but everyone knew that both formats couldn't possibly be here to stay. In both cases (Beta/VHS and HD/BluRay), the market couldn't sustain two competing and incompatible formats. However, Apple is still here - and they are still selling a decent range of computers. Their market share for computers is small - but they are in no danger of losing that share anytime soon. They have found a small, stable, profitable niche - and it's working out just fine for them. Fans of Apple computers are amazingly loyal. It has been said that if Apple was ever in danger of bankruptcy, they could file for religious status! Every new product is awaited breathlessly and devoured by the faithful. Compare that to the launch of Vista - with yawns and grumblings and fervent hopes that we can all cling on to XP until the storm blows over! It's a totally different business situation than Beta vs VHS. We have the bizarre situation where a large percentage of people who buy Windows PC's would really LOVE to switch to something else - but perceive (rightly or wrongly...and mostly wrongly) that they cannot. Adherents of Mac and Linux mostly wouldn't switch if you paid them to. It's a totally upside-down situation that's essentially been brought about by the abject failure of the market dynamic that caused VHS to beat Beta to allow Microsoft to crush Apple or vice-versa. SteveBaker (talk) 13:00, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Isn't that obvious? If you don't try to anticipate your consumers' future needs, how are you going to plan your product development? When your consumers' "future" needs become their present needs, you'll be behind—your competitors have product offerings to meet those needs; you're busy playing catch up. --173.49.9.21 (talk) 12:09, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Just as a side note - rather than anticipating customers future needs it is far better (particularily for a high-end/lifestyle manufacturer like Apple) to create and define a customers needs. ie create a new market.83.100.250.79 (talk) 13:23, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Certainly a part of marketing is to try to "create" demand. Hence the concept of advertising. How else would anyone have made money selling "Pet Rocks"? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 15:15, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Buddhist wedding gift, prayer, toast

Good morning.

A couple of friends of mine are getting married. Both are huge fans of Buddhist nun, Pema Chodron.

What would be a good wedding gift prayer, gift, and/or toast for two people who, though not Buddhist, espouse the principles of Buddhism? Maybe there are traditional gifts, prayers, or toasts. If you could advise me or know someone who could, please let me know.

Thank you. Have a nice day! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 512mb (talk • contribs) 12:12, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, as far as gifts are concerned, prayer flags might be well thought of. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 22:45, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Given the reference to Pema Chodron, I take it you mean "Westernised Tibetan Buddhism" and not the East Asian schools.

I suggest googling for "traditional Tibetan wedding ceremony" (rather than Buddhist). This page looks like it might have some useful information.

Wedding and marriage-related traditions in a Buddhist culture are likely to be geographically, rather than religiously, specific, since (non-Tibetan) Buddhism (though modern day Tibetan Buddhism is increasingly adopting some of these values) -- advocates celibacy very strongly, and traditionally (non-Tibetan) Buddhist monks and nuns play no role in weddings and marraige-related ceremonies at all. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 06:04, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

The only Buddhist wedding I've been to was a complicated Zen one in Oakland. I gave the couple one of the things they'd signed up for at Macy's, and a few of us got together to fill a Red Envelope. Good wedding, good tea ceremony afterwards, great banquet afterwards. Everybody seemed happy.

PhGustaf (talk) 06:53, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Fast Food Obesity in China vs North America

On my recent trip to China, I stopped by at several American fast food restaurants such as McDonald and KFC. After surveying the the people inside the restaurants, I noticed that all of them were very thin and far from what we in NA would call "overweight." This holds true for most of the people I see on the streets too.

Surely this must be a genetic difference between Orientals and North Americans right? If so, why are Orientals, on average, smaller - in terms of both height and body mass - than the average North American? Is their ability to not gain weight after eating junk food a result of a fast metabolism or is there something else in play? Acceptable (talk) 15:19, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

That fast food is available in China does not imply that Chinese eat fast food as often as, or in the same quantity as, Americans. It also doesn't consider whether the menu at a Chinese McDonald's is nutritionally equivalent to the same in the US. I'd look for much simpler reasons for obesity rates before jumping to genetic differences. — Lomn 15:32, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Agree with lomn here. Could be a matter of the Americans eat fast food 20 times a month vs the Chinese at 1 time a month, or it could be a matter of exercise. I would not believe that it is genetic unless there were some scientific studies showing support instead of just looking at a small group of people and not knowing 95% of the variables. Googlemeister (talk) 15:43, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

The easiest way to get an idea of whether or not it is genetic would be to look at people of oriental descent living in the US. You can't rule out cultural differences even when people live in the same country, but it is far better than comparing people living in different countries. If there is significant obesity in Chinese-Americans then that pretty much rules out a genetic explanation (the lack of significant obesity wouldn't confirm that is was genetic, though). As for height, that's a combination of genetics and diet (and maybe some other environmental factors), I believe. There is a discussion of the subject here. --Tango (talk) 15:57, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree, that would be the best way. However, while exercise (ie walking to driving ratio) may be closer, I think it's very common for even 2nd generation Chinese people to eat largely Chinese-style meals at home in North America, so I think the error in a random sampling would be pretty systematic. I think the best way to do it would be to study adopted Asian babies, raised in North America with no real connection to Asian culture, but I'm not sure if you could get a large enough sample size to get a lot of confidence, and even this data may be skewed by more "hippie do gooders" adopting Chinese babies than "average Americans". TastyCakes (talk) 16:59, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

A number of studies on NZ Asian migrants have suggested obesity is a big problem [3] [4] [5] [6]. Bear in mind this will potentially include East Asian, South East Asian and South Asians. And the reasons are likely to be more complicated then just diet Nil Einne (talk) 18:34, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

62000+ scholarly articles were found by Google - there's no shortage of research into ethnicity and obesity. Cardiology research journals seem to have a lot of useful information: Fast food and obesity in China seems to specifically address your question. Fast food, automobiles, television and obesity epidemic in Chinese children also seems to sum the subject up. From these articles, and the sources they cite, you can probably deep-dive and find all kinds of statistics research. "In Beijing, 27.8% of children surpass the standard weight guidelines. By the end of 2000, the obesity rate of male students in Beijing reached 15%, doubling that of 1990 and approaching that of developed countries." Your cursory glance at one or two restaurants is not a scientific study - as a single anecdote, it is virtually useless in estimating a population trend. Nimur (talk) 16:32, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure I saw somewhere that American Big Macs are bigger and saltier than anyone else's. Hm. Vimescarrot (talk) 16:48, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

You mean this Big Mac? Nil Einne (talk) 18:30, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I like how the British Big Mac has over twice the sodium of the US one but makes up less of the recommended daily intake. Apparently the UK government are bigger fans of salt. TastyCakes (talk) 18:48, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Seems to me to be a European thing. Well except for the French, but they always have to be different Nil Einne (talk) 19:10, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Are you saying French food isn't salty? I think at least that the British stereotype French food as very salty (as opposed to being bland, which is a stereotype of British food). AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 09:12, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Neuschwanstein

How many rooms are in Neuschwanstein and what was its cost to construct and decorate? Googlemeister (talk) 15:51, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

And here I thought you were a Googlemeister. Googling "Neuschwanstein Castle cost" yields this link, which claims that Ludwig II built it on credit, and his heirs paid it back; the cost through 1886, when Ludwig and the psychiatrist who declared him insane were found drowned, was apparently 6,180,047 Goldmarks. Our article says 14 rooms were completed at the time of Ludwig's death, and this travel guide link says the guided tour is of "the 17 rooms that were finished". Not the most clear or definitive reference, but it may be sufficient? Tempshill (talk) 16:57, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I was looking to see how many unfinished rooms there are. I interpret unfinished as not having decorations installed, or is the definition of unfinished mean there are not any walls in the rest of the place? Googlemeister (talk) 18:18, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I think that's the number of rooms that were decorated, judging from the size of it there would be 17 rooms just for servants quarters at least.83.100.250.79 (talk) 18:20, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I was going to accuse you of not doing your own research - but it's not easy to find - unless you are a genius (like me) and realise that typing "Neuschwanstein floor plan" into google gives the answer almost immediately eg http://randwulf.com/hogwarts/castle.html

I leave it to you to count the rooms.

Maybe this is good too http://www.modthesims.info/download.php?t=241515

And the obligatory lego links [7] [8] [9]

83.100.250.79 (talk) 18:31, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Bravo! Tempshill (talk) 06:34, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Royal Gun Works

I have a Royal Gun Works double barrel 12 gauge shotgun #PF1212 and would like to know the approx. year it was manufactured. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aidendevin (talk • contribs) 16:56, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

A post in this chat thread states that it was made in Belgium by Anciens Établissements Pieper, a company that made guns from 1905 to 1957. That does not narrow it down for you much, I imagine. The Bluebook of Gun Values may help you; it's $5 used (plus shipping) through Amazon's service, or you could probably find it at a library. Tempshill (talk) 17:57, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

question about poker

In 5 card draw poker with wild cards, which is better, a royal flush or 5 of a kind? Googlemeister (talk) 20:16, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Sure surprises me that a "googlemeister" couldn't find this faster than asking us. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 20:40, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

See here for a discussion of the issues involved in ranking hands with wild cards. --Tango (talk) 20:51, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Or just see List of poker hands. "Normally casino draw poker variants use a joker, and thus the best possible hand is five of a kind Aces, or A♥ A♦ A♣ A♠ J. In lowball, the joker plays as the lowest card not already in the hand." PhGustaf (talk) 02:22, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Probable law sentence for fanfiction character

Please note that this is not a real scenario, the character involved is a character in a fanfiction: The character has been found guilty of hacking into government files and reading Top Secret documents. I want to give him a reasonable sentence, but have nothing to base it off of. What would be a reasonable sentence? (it's at the end of the story, so don't worry about story convenience.)--Ye Olde Luke (talk) 21:18, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Gary McKinnon apparently faces a prison term of up to 45 years for something fairly similar. BBC 94.168.184.16 (talk) 22:02, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

(ec) Gary McKinnon, who is accused of the "biggest military hack of all time", recently lost his attempt to avoid extradition and now faces up to 70 years in prison if convicted. — Lomn 22:03, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

What country is he being tried in? We can't answer this kind of question if you don't supply such key details. --Tango (talk) 22:10, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Probably death or life in quite a few countries. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 01:25, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

It's America. Sorry, should have mentioned that. --Ye Olde Luke (talk) 01:47, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Another questions for you to help us is 1) what year/era is this taking place? Is it during a time of "cold war" or other real or imagined conflict? 2) What country/agency did the character betray the US to? Russia? China? Cuba? Israel? Nazi Germany? Japan? Torkmann (talk) 01:54, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

The OP never mentioned betrayal, just reading classified documents. In the US there isn't an official secrets act, or anything like it, so I doubt the classification is relevant. The crime would be breaking into a federal building/computer system, I don't know what sentence that carries. (I think the sentences being suggested for McKinnon are because there were multiple infractions, it is a few years for each computer hacked into.) --Tango (talk) 02:05, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Classification is probably most relevant here for sentencing purposes. Breaking into the Department of Transportation and downloading minutes of their meetings is probably not going to be punished as severely as breaking into the CIA and downloading names of agents. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 14:23, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Also, are you using "top secret" in the generic sense or in the specific sense? Also note that US government classification usually falls into two categories: Department of Energy clearance, and Department of Defense clearance; there will probably be different rules regarding these. Lots of other information is "restricted" or subject to access control, too. Accessing secret information can be punished by anything ranging from a metaphorical wrist-slap to a harsh prison term, depending on many factors, including the actual information; the intent of the perpetrator; etc. This WikiSource link seems to provide information on the legislation behind the scenes: they say that violations may result in "Sanctions may include reprimand, suspension without pay, removal, termination of classification authority, loss or denial of access to classified information, or other sanctions in accordance with applicable law and agency regulation." Nimur (talk) 05:09, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Torkman, it's modern day, exactly as modern day currently is. No imaginary wars have been added. Nimur, the governmental files described a military project being kept hidden from the public involving genetic engineering on animals. The character is a normal citizen, with no governmental rank or job. (He's also a minor character, and I want the sentence to get him out of the picture for the rest of the story.) --Ye Olde Luke (talk) 16:37, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I would think somewhere between 20-50 years would be appear to be appropriate. Googlemeister (talk) 16:42, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Look up the Federal Sentencing Guidelines. You'll need to know two things. First the crime, and second the circumstances for the guidelines. You obviously can make up any of those. The only other variable is judicial discretion, but if you want a realistic yardstick, the sentencing guidelines are where you start. The statutory limits are not useful in most cases. Shadowjams (talk) 04:56, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

August 5

Is there a record for most emails in someone's in box?

A friend recently figured out how to get back into his e-mail account, after having gotten a new one. He said he's up to 7,000 e-mails in his in box. He jokingly (well, maybe not, knowing him :-) said he'd like to get it up to 100,000.

I said I thought that would be a record, and wondered, is there a record? A very quick search (it's close to bedtime) didn't reveal any records, though I didn't check Guinness itself; would they have a record listed? Are there unused, unaccessed e-mail accoutns with millions, somewhere int he ether?Somebody or his brother (talk) 02:29, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I have 9,796 emails in my inbox right now. I received 6,473 spam emails in the last month alone. Your friend's 7,000 is so very much less than unremarkable. I doubt that anyone bar you seeks records in this area, since it would be trivial to break any given record, by the expedient of setting up an email account and sending it the requisite number of emails. Sorry to disappoint. --Tagishsimon (talk) 02:57, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Another bad situation is when an autoreply replies to an autoreply and you get an email loop. Thousands of emails can accumulate. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 04:15, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Or run a website with a bad hosting company who can't seem to keep their database servers up and running. Then have software on that site that emails you everytime it tries to query a database and fails. 1500 emails in a little over three hours.... At least I learned what the max number of emails you can have in a given "conversation" within Gmail is: 61. After that, it starts a new "conversation" Dismas|^(talk) 05:25, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

It seems obvious that it would not be trivial to beat any given record but I don't know what would burst first. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 10:36, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I would expect that certain famous individuals (particularly major politicians and senior tech company management) receive hundreds of emails per day. Any address that is widely disseminated (on purpose or by one's enemies) will be the recipient of great wodges of spam. Any public figure will receive friendly and helpful advice and requests from thousands of people every month — now that we don't have to sit down, find paper, type a letter, find an envelope, and buy a stamp, the urge to share our every little thought with our politicians is damn near irresistable. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:20, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

It's been claimed before that Bill Gates receives 4 million emails a day [10]. This wouldn't surprise me since I know of several people who used to fill in askbill@ms... on those annoying email address request things. Although I have the idea the askbill address may have stopped working at some stage anyway Nil Einne (talk) 14:50, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

dates backwards only in the US

why does every country in the world shows dates as day/month/year ie small/bigger/biggest (units of measurement) except the US which has month/day/year? (bigger,small/biggest). This seems ridiculous. Why is the US out of synch with the rest of the world? are there any other countries like that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Payneham (talk • contribs) 05:50, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Canadians waffle, as in most matters of differences in style between the US and the UK. It's only confusing for days 1 to 12 inclusive of any month. // BL \\ (talk) 05:56, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Or put another way, it's only confusing for a nearly two-fifths of the days in the year. DuncanHill (talk) 15:51, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

We Americans like to think that the rest of the world is out of synch with us. :) Actually, military format, which is what you're describing, is used here. It's also the standard date format for Oracle database, for example. And legal documents will typically say "this __ day of ___ in ____". But to really do it right, for sorting purposes, it should be year-month-day. My guess as far as usage goes is that we tend to say "August 4th", for example, and the year gets stuck on the end when the context is unclear. Europeans would tend to say "4th August". But which usage drove which? Are Europeans parroting what's written? Or was it originally spoken that way and the writing parrots the spoken? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 05:58, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

The U.S. tends to be out of synch with the rest of the world on a number of issues. I think one main reason is ultimately because the U.S. is more geographically isolated than most countries, so its inhabitants tend to have less of a world viewpoint than in much of the world.

However, It isn’t really true that the whole world except the U.S. uses a day/month/year date format. For example, the ISO 8601 standard YYYY-MM-DD format is common in some countries, as well as in databases and other computer applications. In some countries, it’s common to even use a calendar other than the Gregorian calendar, for example the Islamic calendar, the Iranian calendar, the Ethiopian calendar, or the Thai solar calendar. Red Act (talk) 07:07, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm in the US, I use YYYY:MM:DD and nobody knows when I wrote my letters. Nobody knows what a decimeter is, either. It's assumed (and is, sadly, mostly true) that the US can pretty much say "to hell with the standards, we're doing it our own way" and have everyone convert their units. ZS 07:41, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Most countries in East Asia traditionally use Year-Month-Date format (and thus, prefer YYYY-MM-DD today). --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 11:16, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

They also (at least in Japan) write addresses from bigger to smaller. —Tamfang (talk) 22:50, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

And, to switch, why does the US stick to fractions ? Especially in this computer driven decimal age !86.197.21.121 (talk) 13:50, 5 August 2009 (UTC)DT

In what context?AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 14:00, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Stock market, fuel pricing...86.197.21.121 (talk) 15:45, 5 August 2009 (UTC)DT

Fuel prices, if you're talking about gasoline/petrol at the pump, is just phrased as fractions for clarity as, for example, "$2.89 9/10". Mills don't exist as negotiable coin or currency, while cents still do, so "2.899/gal." just looks weird by the roadside. Much easier to think in fractions of the smallest tangible coin. But there's utterly no difference in substance. It's not as if the price were "$2.89 5/12" or "$2.89 3/7". (However, as with all such "just-under" prices, there's an element of trivial psychological manipulation, as the 9/10 is smaller than the 9 which precedes it.)

As for stock prices, I think that the New York Stock Exchange did switch from eighths and sixteenths to decimals. Look at some recent quotations. —— Shakescene (talk) 21:55, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

The fraction thing looks weird to me not the reverse. Nil Einne (talk) 22:54, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

What's the point in having things the same? There's enough market around that the variety doesn't affect prices much. Diversity is a good thing as far as I'm concerned. I don't want to go to another country and find the money the same the language the same the laws the same the electric sockets the same everybody driving on the same side of the road and the same food in the restaurants. Dmcq (talk) 17:16, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Speaking of fractions, I am not yet convinced that there's anything superior about the metric system. You can easily divide a mile, a yard, or a foot by 3. Try doing that with a meter. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 17:52, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

That's not so much a flaw with the metric system as it is with a base-10 numbering system. If only we had two more fingers, we'd have 10s break down into halves, thirds, quarters, and sixths! — Lomn 18:31, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Just like the English System! Shazam! Maybe those old Anglo-Saxons were 6-fingered? Or maybe they just went with what seemed convenient rather than obsessing over divisibility by 10? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 18:36, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

As long as we used a base 10 number system, using a base 10 unit system makes a lot of sense. Using anything else is hardly convenient except in a few rare instances. Trying tell me how much 3 yards, 2 feet and 9 inches in inches in under 5 seconds without a calculator. Very few people can. Or worse, 3.029 yards. However anyone with a basic understanding of SI can tell you how much 3 metres, 2 centimetres and 9 millimetres is in millimetres. Ditto for 3.029 metres. Besides that, it's not as if the imperial system and those based on it is even consistent. Sure a foot is 12 inches which is fine. But a yard is 3 feet. And a mile is 1760 yards. It gets even worse once we start to consider more stuff like weight, let alone temperature. And of course once we get to derived units... There's a good reason why nearly all scientists use SI, and it isn't just because of the need for consistency or clarity of communication. Frankly, I'm glad I never had to learn that shit that some people still hold so dear. Sure, it would probably be largely better if we did use base 12, but we don't so it's a moot point. Nil Einne (talk) 19:59, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

It's amazingly easy to count in twelves on your fingers - you use the thumb to point, and count off the joints on each finger. You can count with one hand, while using the other to hold things. Much easier in fact than counting to ten on the tips of your fingers, which takes two hands and requires a switch of pointer half way through. DuncanHill (talk) 20:13, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I would note that I think most people count by either lifting up or closing fingers, rather then by pointing. And whatever the case most people didn't do that so we are stuck with base 10. Nil Einne (talk) 22:43, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

The trouble is, if we'd gone with a base-12 numbering scheme, (or better still, like the Egyptians, base 60 - which gives you factors of 2,3,4,5,6,10,12,15,20 and 30) then we'd all be whining about how much better it would have been to go with base 16 for the sake of computers. As one who does math in base 16 quite a bit - my observation is that the larger the base you go with, the more hassle it is to remember your multiplication tables - but there is a natural trade-off against the number of digits you have to write down and the ease of doing calculations on large numbers. If, for example, you were to learn your multiplication tables in base 60 (a pretty tough feat of memory) - then you'd be able to multiply quite large numbers in your head - and things like phone numbers would need far fewer digits in them.

I've gotta agree about the illogic of the US date system though - either DDMMYYYY or YYYYMMDD would make much more sense. I used to work for Philips (a Dutch company) and we used YYYYMMDD for everything. Being a Brit and living in the US, I once got into a lot of trouble by not showing up for a court appearance until almost a month after it was due because I forgot about the goddamn date reversal...I showed up on 7th August (8/7/xxxx) instead of 8th July (7/8/xxxx)...WHICH WAS NOT GOOD! SteveBaker (talk) 21:30, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't know how many people would actually be saying 16 is better. 16 isn't dividable by 3. And let's face it, most people don't really care about hexadecimal, many don't even know what it is and probably don't get why it matters. (I learnt it at an early age due to hex editing savegames and it is taught in some schools but I suspect most people would have forgotten by the time they reach 25 unless they actually work with computer to that level.) The inability to divide by 3 is a frequent complaint, the inability to divide by 4 perhaps to a lesser extent. Although I wonder if everyone would be complaining about 5 if we were 12 or 16. Gotta agree about your views on the date thing however, that's perhaps the worst of all the American oddities Nil Einne (talk) 22:43, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Hexadecimal (base 16) arose simply as the lowest power of 2 that could accommodate a sufficiently large character set - as an improvement on the more limited octal (base 8). Tom Lehrer once said "Base 8 is just like base 10, really - if you're missing 2 fingers!" Then there's "hex"adecimal, which someone once characterized as number system that had been "bewitched". Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 09:10, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure of the history, so that may very well be the case, but nowadays hexadecimal has the advantage that two hexadecimal digits represent an 8 bit byte (octet), and many things are either in 8 bit bytes, or multiples thereof. Of course perhaps one of the reasons for this is because of the use of hexadecimal, I don't know Nil Einne (talk) 09:55, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

The first computer I used was PLATO, which had a 60-bit word; hex was unknown there. Indeed, at about the same time it was common to write 16-bit numbers in "split octal": MAXINT was written 377 377 (I think you'll find some examples of this in early issues of DDJ). —Tamfang (talk) 22:50, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I once had a Unix sysadmin class taught by someone who was missing two fingers. I wondered how many people in the room thought of Tom Lehrer when he explained chmod. —Tamfang (talk) 22:50, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

There's a story that Alan Turing, interviewed on radio about the coming age of computers, spent most of the time explaining that people would have to learn to count in base 32. <sigh> —Tamfang (talk) 22:50, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

In Hong Kong, the British date/month is common, but Chinese always refer to 六四 the other way around. DOR (HK) (talk) 09:09, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

YYYYMMDD e.g. 20090806 has digit places in regular size order. DDMMYYYY e.g. 06082009 has irregular size order (no one is seriously proposing to express it as 06089002 which would regularise in increasing size order). So they are not equally good. In both cases the leading zeroes on days 1-9 and months 1-9 are needed. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 11:13, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Surely you mean 60809002, not 06089002. — In my private files, I use one byte for months (123456789abc). —Tamfang (talk) 22:50, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Primates gained an evolutionary boost in the form of their opposable thumbs. One can ask a creationist whether their alleged intelligent designer foresaw its use for handling tools, hitchhiking, operating cellphone keys and counting to 12 on one hand. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 11:13, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

You can count to 11111 if you're willing to use base 2. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 11:40, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

PS: Nil, what about the oddity of the so-called English system units being slightly different to their British homonyms? AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 11:45, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm not really sure what you're referring to. But if you mean the fact that US customary units are slightly different in definition from the British ones, that's just because they were standardised in different ways and at different times (since units were never that well standardised in historic times, with people using different things in different situations). They're still basically the same thing, hence why they have the same names. (Although this is another example of why using the imperial system and those based on it is so problematic.) Do you really think both the Americans and British came up with the name 'gallon' independently? Nil Einne (talk) 09:47, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I really think the main reason the US is different is because it wasn't much of an issue before the internet. I grew up measuring things in feet and pounds (except in science class) and I wrote dates MM/DD/YYYY because that's how everyone I interacted with understood things. Only when the internet made communication with other countries is as easy as communication with someone across the street did these issues start to reach the average person. I agree that the metric system and DD/MM/YYYY system are superior but it takes a long time convert when the system still works just fine for us in our every day lives. -- Mad031683 (talk) 21:40, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Americans are nuts , thats why they do such things which others dont !!

Type O Negative

The following information is missing from the relative articles, I am very curious to know what language or pseudo-language is being used on the album Dead Again. Any help in this matter would be greatly appreciated. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.58.82 (talk) 08:27, 5 August 2009 (UTC) Corrected link in above question --ColinFine (talk) 20:04, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

It's Russian. Seems to be a Russian theme running through the album in general. Fribbler (talk) 13:35, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

It's actually gibberish written in a mix of Cyrillic and Latin letters (was it that hard to find some real words, I wonder?!). The overall theme, however, is indeed Russian, as the picture of Rasputin on the cover would immediately attest.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 20:16, August 5, 2009 (UTC)

the language "written" on the front is faux cyrillic, but the OP wonders about the actual audio. Fribbler (talk) 16:17, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

19th Century secrets

Today there are facts that someone knows but by law have to be kept secret from the public, for reasons of national security, commercial secrecy, protection of archeological sites, international relations, witness protection...or other reasons. There are plenty of secrets from the 20th century. Are there secrets from the 19th century ? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 09:45, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't know, no-one will tell me. But seriously, declassification normally happens in the US after 25 years, unless there are special circumstances. In the UK, I believe it's 50 years. Other countries probably have limits too. In addition, it seems most secrecy legislation only came into place in the 20th century. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 09:56, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I never heard of secret archeological sites. Can you cite one which is secret?--Quest09 (talk) 10:48, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Keeping an archaeological site a secret while the excavation is carried out, is sometimes necessary if the find is valuables like jewelry and/or it is an area that is prone to looting. However as soon as the excavation is over the secrecy is lifted (at least in the cases that I know of). --Saddhiyama (talk) 11:05, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

The most recent I can think of where the location is kept secret would be one of the many findings of Odyssey Marine Exploration. Nanonic (talk) 13:19, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, there are plenty of 19th century secrets. A wonderful book on the entire practice of 19th century secrets (in the UK) is David Vincent, The culture of secrecy: Britain, 1832-1998. It's a wonderfully fun book. All of the things you listed above existed in the 19th century as well, and much more (there were attempts in the UK, for example, to keep effective methods of birth control generally secret, for moral reasons). Though technical secrets for military purposes is something that didn't come into vogue in most places until World War I. Certainly they had industrial trade secrets—you can find evidence of those as far back to Ancient times. If you have more specific questions, feel free to ask. It is true that the government secrecy infrastructure of the US, UK, etc. increased dramatically in the twentieth century, esp. around the periods of WWI and WWII (and went bonkers during the Cold War and afterwards, where millions of documents were being classified as secret per year). But there were all sorts of other secrets as well. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 14:13, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I think the OP means things that are *still* secret. --Tango (talk) 17:52, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes I do mean that. We can safely say there is nobody alive today who keeps a personal secret from before year 1900. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 21:02, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Whilst both US and UK have laws opening up secret documents after so many years - they both have clauses that enable their respective governments to redact either parts of those documents or entire documents for a wide range of reasons. So I'm pretty sure there are a ton of things still being kept secret from 100 years ago. SteveBaker (talk) 21:16, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

There are secrets much older than that. Greek fire is a famous example - it was a state secret of the Byzantine Empire, and it was kept so well that we still don't know what was in it. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:16, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

There is a difference between secrets and lost knowledge. There are plenty of secrets that people took with them to their graves, that's not interesting. I'm sure the OP means things which some people do still know (or, at least, are in archives somewhere). --Tango (talk) 21:19, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Oh, you mean things STILL secret. OK. Well, I doubt there's anything still classified under U.S. government laws from that time period. The earliest I have ever heard are things from World War I relating to cryptography, secret writing, etc. The main reason you wouldn't have much from that time period still secret is because there weren't regular secrecy laws at that point—there was no procedure for making something "officially" secret in a way that would be legally binding over a long period of time. (You could write "secret" on a piece of paper in the Civil War, but there was no official categorization scheme.) As for things that were kept secret and just never seen again, thought of, or figured out... sure, that's definitely the case, though no governments are actively trying to keep such things secret. In general, in terms of secrets, it is easy to make a new secret (whole branches of the government have practically everything they produce be classified in one way or another); it is relatively hard to "take back" a released secret (reclassification); it is not easy at all to classify something that was never previously officially classified, as all pre-WWI materials would be in the US, for example. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 22:17, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

A caveat. There are a lot of historical materials kept in private or provincially-run archives. Embarrassing personal papers, even for figures long, LONG since dead, can easily be kept out of public circulation by such people. I have heard stories of archives today refusing to release information about a certain famous Russian bigamist which was thought to be embarrassing to a great hero. So I guess there are things like that, as well. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 22:20, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Victorian morality demanded secrecy about such facts of life as how two make a baby (in spite of an occasional revealing book or magazine). I have been told that Queen Victoria when she received her first practical demonstration (in 1840?) declared "Oh Albert, this is far too good for the ordinary people!". Another fine lady of the period on becoming aware of the controversy surrounding the publication in 1859 of On the Origin of Species commented "I cannot say whether Mr. Darwin is correct in his theory that we are descended from apes. But if that is found to be true, I hope it does not become generally known". Cuddlyable3 (talk) 21:33, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

The secret journals detailing the perverse and licentious affairs of James Boswell were kept secret by his heirs from his death in 1795 until the 1920's. His heirs used black ink to cover up the naughty bits, but the editor managed to read the original text through the ink. Some hypothesized "affairs" of state, such as some member of a royal family being involved in the Jack the Ripper murders, might be kept as official secrets as long as the particular dynasty remained in power. The Catholic Church had someone forge a "Donation of Constantine" in the mid 8th century, purporting to be from the 4th century, which gave them control of worldly estates. A priest in 1440 wrote a book exposing the fraud, based on textual analysis and historical errors in the document, but the Church still banned the book 200 years later. It is rumored that in the archives of the KGB were Czarist records showing that Stalin had worked for the Czar's secret police, the Okhrana, starting back in 1899. Many a regime has sought to avoid exposing secrets which might be embarrassing or which might provoke unrest. Edison (talk) 02:56, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

My favorite story about the Stalin material in the KGB archives: The KGB inherited the archives of the Czarist secret police. A directive came down from Stalin (or his henchmen) to destroy any documents stating that Stalin had worked for the Czar's secret police. The women archivists, being librarians by nature, and embodying an early version of the Wikipedia WP:PRESERVE principle, first made copies of the condemned archives, then destroyed the originals, and sent back a form certifying the documents had been destroyed. Edison (talk) 03:32, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

investment analysis

discus the aptness of applying capital market theory to real estate investment analysis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Georgekalusanga (talk • contribs) 11:27, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Please do your own homework.

Welcome to the Wikipedia Reference Desk. Your question appears to be a homework question. I apologize if this is a misinterpretation, but it is our aim here not to do people's homework for them, but to merely aid them in doing it themselves. Letting someone else do your homework does not help you learn nearly as much as doing it yourself. Please attempt to solve the problem or answer the question yourself first. If you need help with a specific part of your homework, feel free to tell us where you are stuck and ask for help. If you need help grasping the concept of a problem, by all means let us know. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 11:45, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Have you tried looking at our articles on capital market, investment analysis, and Real estate appraisal and the external links from these articles? AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 11:46, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Walking in zig-zags

I've seen a woman in my area out and about a few times, and she has the most peculiar way of walking. She literally walks in zig-zags, and not just each stride or anything like that, she walks from one side of the road or path to the other, turning at 90 degree angles, and she keeps doing that even after she's turned around the corner. The first time I saw her doing it she was walking downhill, so I assumed she was doing it to lower the resistance on her knees (she's slightly overweight) by walking along the side of the hill instead of directly down it. I've seen her since doing it on a flat path, and on a sidewalk only 2 meters wide (2 or three steps per diagonal). She also has a huge cross on her chest. I'm left assuming she's bonkers, but could there be any physical, diet-related, or religious reason for this particular behaviour? Thanks. 210.254.117.186 (talk) 15:14, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

OCD possibly. Dismas|^(talk) 15:26, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I'd probably assume it is down to a slightly non-straight stride (slight difference in leg-length, slight difference in way places weight from foot to foot) and that she's not thinking about it but when she gets to the edge of the path she corrects, and thus it causes this. It could be an OCD type thing (my years playing Counter-strike have taught me that zig-zag walking in games reduces the ease at which average-competence snipers can kill me. Always thought such a thing would make for a decent real-life mental disease comedy-sketch (if a little geeeky for the general public). 15:32, 5 August 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.221.133.226 (talk)

I sooooooooooooo miss that game!!! Never managed to find the version of this game i once played on a massive LAN in a computer shop... It was about 8 years ago now though so I assume no-one plays it online anymore...  :( AH well... Gazhiley (talk) 11:17, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Was she walking upwind? Maybe she thinks she's an entry in the America's Cup race, and was tacking. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 18:33, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Maybe she thinks she is light in a fiber optic tube. Googlemeister (talk) 20:30, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Could it be that she's blind and is using one of those sonar contraptions to detect the edge of the sidewalk and the wall on the other side? She would have to adopt the strategy of walking in a straight line until the machine goes "beep" then turning slightly to avoid hitting whatever it is. SteveBaker (talk) 21:13, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Models on a catwalk often use a walk which is like that of a cat, placing one foot directly in front of the other to produce an alluring swagger in which the hips take on a more exaggerated movement. Another possibility to consider is that the lady has had one tee many martoonies. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 21:38, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Just what I was thinking - could simply be intoxicated. I recall years ago a panel cartoon showing a drunk walking home. He was zigzagging all over the sidewalk. Then he ran into a part of the sidewalk which itself zigzagged - and he inadvertently ended up walking in a straight line through that part of it. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 09:06, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Might be practicing techniques for walking a straight line on a moving train or during an earthquake. More likely OCD. Edison (talk) 02:40, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I used to play CS too, but to be honest she wasn't strafing; it's like she's using the mouse to turn, and very accurately at that. She's not blind either, because she scowled at me when she saw me looking at her, though I admit it's all very reminiscent of the robot walking mechanism, so I guess there is a possibility she could have some sort of selective visual disorder, or a spacial coordination problem. I guess OCD is a possibility, how obvious can something like that be? She didn't appear troubled at all, and was walking in such a nonchalant way that it was hard to believe there was anything wrong with her. I guess that just added to the tragic comedy of it all. 210.254.117.186 (talk) 11:31, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

The next tie you walk down a sidewalk, just think "Step on a crack, break your mother's back." Unless you hate the old lady, see if you don't start stutter-stepping to avoid the cracks. Now you begin to comprehend the world of OCD. Edison (talk) 03:35, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

never heard of that phrase before, but I walk like this - i cannot stand stepping on a crack in the pavement... But then I'm quite open about having mild OCD... Plus my right foot always has to be the first foot to hit a new floor when walking up or down stairs - even if i have to stop half way up and change to the other foot, or jump a couple of steps to get the order correct... Can't say I've ever tacked down a street though... Gazhiley (talk) 10:01, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

online job

I want some online job like deta transfer or other job.will you suggest some web address from where I get this type job?Supriyochowdhury (talk) 15:57, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

"Data transfer" isn't a job I'm familiar with. Also, there really isn't any web address out there that you can just visit and get a job. It's most likely going to take more than that. If you can be a little more specific about what kind of work you're looking for, we can probably give you some pointers, though. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 21:00, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Have you looked at guru.com? Tempshill (talk) 21:07, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

There are places that will pay you for tasks such as typing in phone books in order that they can cold-call the victims listed within. However, I would caution you that many of those schemes are set up in ways that make it tanatmount to slave labor. They tend to pay you by the number of entries you type in - then DEDUCT a fairly large amount for every mistake you make. Knowing the error rate of typical typists - they set things up so that they hardly have to pay you anything for all your hard (and mind-numbing) work. Be sure you read ALL of the fine-print on the agreement and look hard for any loopholes they've put there...I guarantee you'll find some. The problem is that this work can be done by people in countries where the hourly wage is a TINY fraction of what it's likely to be wherever you live...in order for it to be cost-effective to have you do it, there has to be a scam of some description behind it. SteveBaker (talk) 21:10, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, this is true, but does not apply to more serious sites like guru.com above or elance.com. There are also real descent well-paid services that are traded online. --Quest09 (talk) 09:21, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

From the look of it, guru.com seems to be just some sort of listing site, where many people can list. If so, I don't see any reason to presume all the jobs available thereare magically excellent jobs and without abusive conditions. I know of someone who nearly took up a job accepting money from phished accounts which was offered via a highly reputable job seeking site here in NZ (can't remember which, but it was either [11] or [12] IIRC). He realised something was fishy (pun unintended, seriously) however and made a police report IIRC. In other words, just because the site is reputable doesn't mean all the employers are. Indeed the article on guru.com says "Some customers (freelancers)[who?] are dissatisfied with Guru.com's strong employer bias. "I make sure that my subscribers know that they are not my customer -- the employer is," said Inder Guglani,[2] and Guru.com site policies reflect Mr. Guglani's philosophy." Nil Einne (talk) 10:12, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Tennis Racket

I've taken up tennis recently after a long layoff. My racket is over 15 years old and doesn't have the string tension it had when new. I don't want to have it restrung yet. What can I do to preserve the life of the strings? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.195.3.244 (talk) 16:20, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

My racket has this rubber thing at the bottom of the strings, preserving the string tension. see picture. --Ye Olde Luke (talk) 16:39, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Most tennis racquets can be restored satisfactorily by replacing the frame and strings. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 11:39, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

The rubber thing on the strings is there to dampen racket vibration, or more likely just to change the sound on impact. I've never heard any claims that it "preserves string tension", nor can I imagine how it might do something like that. A tennis racket, like a guitar, probably isn't much good to you if you leave it for 15 years. The strings will stretch over time, and probably become hard and brittle. If you really don't care enough to have it restrung, then don't, and use it as it is. If it's unplayable as it is, you'll have to get it restrung (it's not that expensive), though I'm willing to bet there's been a considerable amount of warpage to your racket frame over the last 15 years. 210.254.117.186 (talk) 02:05, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

twice as wide

It seems that nobody is online at the math’s reference desk... So I would like to as you: We have a question in the german wiki reference desk that can only be answered by a native speaker. How would an english native speaker understand the sentence (from a test): "Now find at least three positions where you can put the light and the card to make a shadow twice as wide as the card." Does the question in that test mean a shadow width twice as wide as the edge width of the card or twice as wide as the whole card? --Ian Dury^{Hit me} 17:14, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

As stated, the question doesn't mean one or the other; the meaning might be discoverable with the complete text, but as is, it is ambiguous. --LarryMac | Talk 17:19, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

If the question is referring to a playing card, I think it would be most common to call the card’s longest size the “height”, the card’s shortest size the “thickness”, and the card’s intermediate size the “width”. I’d be pretty sure that the person who wrote that question intended “twice as wide as the card” to mean twice the card’s intermediate size. Red Act (talk) 17:37, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much. In fact the questioner thought it may be ambigious. Agreeing to that I suggested the answer from Red Act. The question was of course translated into german, but somewhat wrong, I think. The re-translation from German to English would be: twice as big. --Ian Dury^{Hit me} 17:56, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Not necessarily: The shadow may be twice as wide but the height may also be twice as long, thus the shadowed area would be four times as big (by area), ie "vier mal so groß". The translation "doppelt so groß" is ambiguous, as I (a native German speaker) would understand this to mean the area. This is, "doppelt so groß" could also mean to place the light in a positon where the height of the card is doubled but not the width, or to place the light in a position where width (of shadow) times height (of shadow) is twice the area of the "real" card. In neither case the width of the card´s shadow would be twice the width of the real card. As I don´t know the original TIMMS text, I may misunderstand the question, anyway. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:48, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

As a former test writer, I would expect the intent to be "twice the width." The answerer should consider the light to card distance and the card to screen distance. "Twice the area" would perhaps be allowed if clearly explained. Edison (talk) 02:37, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Nordstrom and Paypal connection???

I had a debit card on my Paypal account. That card got lost. I called my bank and cancelled the card. (all this happened over a year ago). I recently attempted to purchase something online from Nordstrom. I entered in the debit card # of my lost card into Nordstrom's website (2 days ago) and it got denied (no surprise there). Today, I receive an email from paypal saying that they have removed a debit card from my Paypal account. Are these events related? How?--12.48.220.130 (talk) 17:27, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps Paypal realised that your old card had been cancelled and thought to themselves what is the point of a cancelled card on this person's account - let's cancel it. The odd thing is why you entered the cancelled card number. 86.4.181.14 (talk) 17:47, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

But how did Paypal find out? Where did the get the information from, when I entered the card number onto Nordstrom's website? I entered it accidentally. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.48.220.130 (talk) 17:50, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I guess they used the same system that they use to validate your card (or anybody's card). They have some sort of card registration centre that they have access to. 86.4.181.14 (talk) 20:01, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

What was the expiry date? It may just be a coincidence and the card would have expired at the end of July and Paypal have gone through tidying up old cards. --Tango (talk) 03:53, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

They all use the same program, your card details go through to aperson/program that enters the details this then comes back with an auth code or declined. This info would be related to all involved to ensure that a stolen/ canx card does not get used by a theif on a diff web site. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.58.82 (talk) 07:08, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

They must have sent u an e-mail stating that your card has been removed because of expiry date of your card.. dont forget whoever and whenevr you `ll register your card with paypal... u give them Card valid from and expiry date too... so when your car get expired ...they remove it and wait for u to enter new card details :)

what metal

What metal was used in the production of a 1939-40 5 Rial Iranian coin? Googlemeister (talk) 18:05, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

According to Iranian_rial#Coins the second issue coins were silver

quote

"Second rial:The first coins of the second rial currency were in denominations of 1, 2, 5, 10 and 25 dinar, ½, 1, 2 and 5 rial, with the ½ to 5 rial coins minted in silver. Gold coins denominated in pahlavi were also issued, initially valued at 100 rial. In 1944, the silver coinage was reduced in size, with the smallest silver coins being 1 rial pieces."

Given that 5rials were silver in 1935 [13], and the switch to alloy coins happened much later (1950s I think) it looks like the answer is silver.83.100.250.79 (talk) 18:53, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I got that they are silver, but are they 100% silver, or is it a mix like American coins at that time were? Googlemeister (talk) 19:07, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

What mix where the american coins?83.100.250.79 (talk) 19:16, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

US silver coins at that time were 90% silver 10% copper. British were 92.5% silver, not sure on the remainder. Googlemeister (talk) 20:28, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Silver standards for Iran in the 20th century include .84 and .90 silver

However for coins, around 1910 5 dinars were .6655 [14], it's unlikely that the content improved, so I'd expect .6655 (or maybe less)83.100.250.79 (talk) 23:23, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

British coins were only 92.5% silver until 1920; then 50% silver (and various percentages of copper, zinc, and nickel) until 1947, then 0% silver. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 00:03, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

TV ratings and muting of commercials

Do any of the meters used to produce TV ratings track whether or not the viewer mutes the TV during commercials? NeonMerlin 18:23, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure how this could be technically accomplished, since volume is almost always a function of the TV itself (that is, the end device) rather than a meter, cable box, or other intermediate device. — Lomn 18:29, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't agree — the remote that is actually used in my house is the cable TV remote, and the "Mute" button on that may send out the mute command for the TV or may send out the mute command for the cable box; I'm not sure. If NeonMerlin's data collection scheme were desirable then the cable TV company would set it up to be the latter, and track it. Tempshill (talk) 21:00, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

The devices they connect to TV's in order to collect viewer data are pretty sophisticated. They can even tell which people are in the room with the TV and who is watching and who is turned around playing with their computers. I don't think they'd have any trouble figuring out whether the mute circuit was activated or not. Remember - the people who submit to this monitoring are paid for their trouble and put under some pretty severe restrictions. Personally - I doubt very much whether the ratings are actually worth the paper they are printed on because there is a ton of bias built into the system. Do people who mute adverts - or use their TiVo to skip past them actually volunteer for ratings monitoring? If so, do they change their viewing habits while they are being monitored? I bet they do. SteveBaker (talk) 21:02, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

What? Really? There's an automated (i.e. not the user-filled survey) method of determining who's watching? I know the paper surveys ask for this info, but as you've noted, that's subject to extreme bias. As for the Tivo, my understanding is that the ad-skipping is monitored universally. My mute function, though -- even on the Tivo remote -- is the TV's native command. The Tivo doesn't know what that particular IR signal means. Supposing any sort of piggybacked Tivo signal with the mute command isn't reasonable, as IR commands are dropped all the time and the Tivo would quickly be out of state with the display. While it's certainly possible to route mute through a cable box (and to be fair, it appears some people meters do this), the inability to force a single-source command (are they listening to the commercial? did they just mute the TV itself? Are they really using our remote or going back to one of the three others they're already familiar with?) makes any sort of objective measurement impossible. — Lomn 21:28, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

My interesting question of the day is whether the cable TV companies in the US are actively monitoring all the activity of their customers who have digital set-top boxes, and then selling that data — or, at least, using it internally for analysis of their customers' viewing. I may have "agreed" to this monitoring in the small print of my subscriber agreement — I don't have any idea. Even if not, presumably all my activity is being logged back at the head office, under the rubric of "collecting data to make sure our systems are working properly". Tempshill (talk) 21:34, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

In the US they have "Nielson boxes" which do it all automatically (in addition to paper surveys, I believe). It gets plugged into your TV somehow and keeps note of what you watch. As far as I know, the UK just uses the paper surveys. --Tango (talk) 00:34, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Jokes and political correction

Is there any serious study relating differences in jokes and the political correct movement? (this question is not a joke).--Quest09 (talk) 18:44, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I would dispute that there is such a thing as the politicall(ly) correct movement. The term is almost always applied by critics to people or groups who are applying strictures they wish to attack or ridicule. --ColinFine (talk) 20:10, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

But it's amazing how quickly people will latch on to perceived political correctness. A couple of years ago, some bright spark announced that, for reasons that completely escaped me, saying "Ho, ho, ho" at Christmas time could be offensive. Then before you knew it, thousands of people were saying, literally, We're not allowed to say "Ho, ho, ho" any more, as if there had been some government decree making this utterance punishable by imprisonment. Same thing happened with "Merry Christmas". Someone went too far in protecting the feelings of non-Christians, so now it's routinely "Happy holidays". Bah, humbug, I say. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:36, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

"Politically correct" was actually used by progressives in the 1960's — although sometimes also with an ironic allusion to Stalinist countries where dissident factions (e.g Trotskyists) could face dire consequences for being "politically incorrect, comrade".

But it didn't take very long for "PC" to achieve its pejorative connotations of censoriousness and censorship.

I don't think there's any conspiracy against Christmas. I'm not a Christian but I often wish people Merry Christmas (or Happy Hanukkah or best wishes for Ramadan). I also often just say Happy Holidays because I don't how they'd feel. Those who are most frantic about "Happy Holidays" being some kind of anti-Christmas conspiracy are probably those who'd be most taken aback if they were constantly wished a Happy Hanukkah or Happy New Year at Rosh Hashannah.

But I'm not quite sure what the question is asking. Do you mean are there studies showing changes in jokes since, say 1965? That's not necessarily, in my opinion, always a bad thing. U.S. cartoons before 1940 show Jews, Mexicans and Negroes in a very different way than most of us would find funny or acceptable, so they're often edited before being shown today. Even Mickey Rooney's portrayal of a Japanese photographer in Breakfast at Tiffany's (1961) is just embarrassing. And both Mr Rooney and the director Blake Edwards are happily still with us. Similarly for Bob Newhart's more-recent routine about Asian women drivers. —— Shakescene (talk) 22:17, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

The title is amusingly misleading, as it's not how it's actually expressed, which is "political correctness", but "correction" is the intent of folks who harp on it too much - i.e. censoriousness. It's a term often used by the right to ridicule the left as being "too sensitive", yet there is also right-wing political correctness - basically, things you're not supposed to say. Right wingers talk about "Winter Holiday" being PC, but actually Christmas usurped the already-existing winter holiday and arbitrarily assigned it as the birthday of Jesus, which in reality is unknown. And if any politician dares to make fun of religion, the right wing will suddenly become very sensitive. Where the right fails on this is when it comes to racial and ethnic stereotyping, which are unacceptable in our somewhat more enlightened society. Pop culture, especially vaudeville, was rife with stereotypes, much of it probably a product of the ethnic diversity in the big cities. It may or may not have been intended to be harmful. It's just out of fashion, at the very least. I'm thinking about the Marx Brothers, as Chico was known for his fake Italian accent which he retained from the stage; Groucho did a fake German accent in some of his bits, but not in films to speak of. They themselves were Jewish, and there was no shortage of stereotypes about Jews. Basically they all made fun of each other. Films and cartoons and phonograph records from that era are loaded with stereotypes - to the point where the WB DVD's hired Whoopi Goldberg to record a disclaimer for some of them. That old-fashioned stereotyping was a curious mix of both celebrating and putting down ethnic diversity. We still like to celebrate ethnic diversity. Putting it down is what's out of fashion - except when someone is trying to make a point of some kind, typically for shock value. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 23:45, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Not exactly a serious study, but The Guardian ran a piece a couple of weeks ago about the increase in political incorrectness by comics: The new offenders of standup comedy which I found quite interesting. In trawling through the archives just now to find the link, I noticed that the original piece seems to have produced a bit of a backlash from some of the comedians mentioned Brendon Burns, Richard Herring, and the original writer, Brian Logan's, response. Frank Skinner also seems to have done an interview on "whether comedy has gone too far]".--Kateshortforbob 21:02, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Leaders of the U.S. Reconstruction Finance Corporation

I got thoroughly snarled up last night in trying to adjust the succession boxes for Calvin Coolidge's Vice-President Charles G. Dawes, who was later briefly either chairman or president of the Reconstruction Finance Corporation (ca. 1931-57), and then in adjusting the succession boxes for subsequent leaders of the RFC. When a government entity or a direct successor has lasted into the age of the World Wide Web, it's usually fairly easy to find a list of its previous principal officials, either at the organization's own site, or at a place like World Statesmen.org.

But the RFC is much murkier (as it was during its TARP-like origins as a bailout mechanism for banks after the international financial crisis of 1931). Apparently its first chairman was Eugene Meyer, also Chairman of the Federal Reserve, and its first president was Dawes. Dawes (whose terms is said to have begun with the RFC's formal establishment on February 2, 1932) had to resign suddenly on June 7, 1932, after questions about RFC loans to his own bank, and was succeeded by Atlee Pomerene — an Ohio Democratic politician who'd prosecuted the Teapot Dome defendants in 1924. But some sources say Pomerene was chairman and others president. (Pomerene himself had to resign the next year after similar questions about home-bank favoritism.) When Franklin D. Roosevelt became President of the U.S. on March 4, 1933, he chose the Texas financier and Democratic stalwart Jesse H. Jones (who became Secretary of Commerce in 1940) to headed the RFC, but under what title I'm not sure. Some sources say he led the RFC from 1933 to 1945. But my 1943 World Almanac and Book of Facts, which devotes pages 626-628 to the RFC and its subsidiaries including Fannie Mae (FNMA), lists Charles B. Henderson as chairman with four other directors, none of whom is Jones, but no president. (Wikipedia says Henderson served as chairman from 1941 to 1947.)

I suppose I should confine this question to the RFC talk page, but it's not an active page, and the varied expertise on the Help Desk seems like a better place to find out where to obtain a good list or at least some clarification.

I can make some estimates and guesses (e.g., did Henderson succeed Jones directly?) but I'd much rather be entering supported facts than suppositions and plausible conclusions. —— Shakescene (talk) 20:14, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry I don't know anything about this, but Amazon shows a 1977 book and a 1988 book and a few others that are 99% likely to be more useful than any articles on the Web. I was surprised to see that 1988 book is going for $197 used. Sounds like a trip to the library would be preferable. Tempshill (talk) 21:38, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

August 6

110 v 220 volts

why do some countries have 110 volts electricity and others 220? surely the first one invented would have taken over. which is more common? Also, why are there so many types of wall sockets in the world? once again why didn't the first one invented become the standard? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.202.43.53 (talk) 00:23, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

See Mains_voltage#History_of_voltage_and_frequency and AC power plugs and sockets. They should get you started. --Tango (talk) 00:30, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

(ec)According to Mains electricity, it was driven in respective countries by optimizing voltage for a specific type of lightbulb. Edison's type was optimal at about 110, and the one invented in Germany or someplace was optimal at about 220. It's kind of like the question of why some countries drive on the left and some on the right. They independently established their national standards, and stuck with them. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 00:31, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

The mains power systems article shows the great diversity in both voltage and frequency (Hz). It's kinda like asking why don't humans all speak the same language which would be much more convenient! -hydnjo (talk) 00:32, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

It's not even within different countries - the two main islands of Japan have different standards! SteveBaker (talk) 00:39, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

And the USA uses 110 or 220 depending on the type of appliance. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 00:47, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Thomas Edison was concerned with safety. He argued that AC (with power lines at thousands of volts, to be stepped down just outside the home) was more dangerous than lower voltage DC (with lines leaving the generating station at 100 or 110 volts, but only economical to carry power a mile or less). Electrocution is less likely with 110 than 220. Countries establishing central power stations later benefitted from improved insulation and perhaps were less concerned with occasional electrocutions scaring people out of having their homes wired. The higher voltage is much more economical of copper. The initial central DC station used 100 volts DC, and it was raised to 110to get more power out, then later to 120 AC as a standard as measured at the meter. 110 would be illegal low voltage in the U.S. today, per state utility regulations. The voltage at the appliance might be 110 if the meter receives 120, due to voltage drop in the wiring. Changing the U.S. standard would have required scrapping all motors and appliances, and perhaps switches and outlets. Yet, such changes can be achieved, as was done in adopting digital TV recently. Edison (talk) 02:32, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

That was his public stance. He was also concerned with keeping his company going. Thus he fought Tesla... and lost. But he was better at marketing. Tom Edison, great inventor that he was, also showed a remarkable tendency to invent something and then stick with it rather than innovating. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 07:24, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

You can say that again! Edison (talk) 18:47, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

That was... No! Not this rut again! :) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 06:44, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Edison's principal invention was the modern commercial research laboratory. He discovered only one memorable thing, the Edison effect, but he couldn't figure out how to sell it and let it be. But he was really really good at trying things that didn't work over and over until he found things that did work, and later at hiring hordes to do the same thing. I will find the riff John dos Passos did on this before he turned Nazi somewhere under all these books. PhGustaf (talk) 23:02, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

215/220/230/240/etc. volt distribution is more efficient than 110/115/120 volt because there is less resistive heating of the conductors used to carry the current. Therefore, more power can effectively be delivered without having things catch on fire. Ilikefood (talk) 22:20, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Disney tv shows

Is there a way to watch the following tv shows on the internet for free? The tv shows I'm after are Disney sitcoms from [15]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.161.138.117 (talk) 03:02, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

You may find them at ovguide.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.225.133.60 (talk) 03:46, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Torrent to torrent download. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.58.82 (talk) 07:22, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Try the disney-website - a lot of companies stream their shows online these days. You certainly shouldn't illegally download them (and we certainly shouldn't have the reference desk promote the illegal downloading of copyrighted content). 15:07, 6 August 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.221.133.226 (talk)

Shouldn't and shouldn't... The question was "Is there a way..." not "How can I, in a legal way,..." /Coffeeshivers (talk) 16:55, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah - and the answer could be an unqualified "Yes" or "No" without further explanation. We all know WHY the OP needs to know - and dodging the issue like that is pointless. We should stick to advice of a legal nature and not stray into helping people to break the law. SteveBaker (talk) 01:52, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Is ovguide.com legal? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.161.138.117 (talk) 06:48, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Ipod

How can I connect my Ipod to my Sony (maybe Panasonic) Hi Fi? It has a usb port on the front, but when I put my Ipod, or a flsh drive in there it says Unsupport In fact what can I plug into this port to make it work. I have put about 3 months worth of music on my Ipod, but some times I want to listen to music through proper speakers, eg a party. Any help in this would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. ~~Zionist —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.58.82 (talk) 06:58, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

(moved to Wikipedia:Reference desk/Science#Ipod) — QuantumEleven 08:37, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

You can't use USB for this (unless your Hi Fi supports it, which, if you're calling it a HiFi, probably doesn't.) Does your Hi Fi have auxiliary input jacks in the back? If so, you'll need a cable that goes from 1/8" TRS connector (the iPod headphone jack) to whatever is on the back of the HiFi, probably RCA connectors. They're commonly available. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 15:59, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

That does raise the question of the purpose of the USB port on the front of the Hi-Fi though, if it's not for plugging an ipod or flash drive into. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 19:30, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Good point. My cable set-top box has one for some mysterious reason (yeah, I know the boxes are pretty generic and some cable services might use it); my TV has one for firmware updates; I obviously made an assumption based on the terminology -- as soon as heard "hi fi" I pictured my Dad's bronze front Harmon Kardon that he was so proud of. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 23:53, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

income statement

what are the key things taht a compant income statement would show? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.122.36.6 (talk) 07:09, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Welcome to the Wikipedia Reference Desk. Your question appears to be a homework question. I apologize if this is a misevaluation, but it is our policy here to not do people's homework for them, but to merely aid them in doing it themselves. Letting someone else do your homework does not help you learn how to solve such problems. Please attempt to solve the problem yourself first. If you need help with a specific part of your homework, feel free to tell us where you are stuck and ask for help. If you need help grasping the concept of a problem, by all means let us know. Thank you. — QuantumEleven 08:33, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

His spelling could use a little help, too. There's a wikipedia article on Income statement. That would be a good starting point. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 08:41, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

To be fair, the OP's IP looks up to India suggesting English may not be his/her first language. Of course a spell checker can help a lot Nil Einne (talk) 13:56, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

To be even fairer, I'd say his typing could do with help, not his spelling. Aaadddaaammm (talk) 15:33, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Now the real question is, did he mean company or compact? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 03:10, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Type O Negative

I asked a question yesterday or the day before, but may have worded it badly. What I meant to ask is what language is he singing in? I realise that the wording on the album cover and sleave is pseudo-russian. But being a band from NY, I cant see why he would be fluent in russian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.58.82 (talk) 07:17, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Why not? People come to New York from all over the world, including Russia. Although the singer's article doesn't say anything about Russian, he could easily come from an ethnic Russian backgroung, have spent some time in Russia, or taken some classes in the languge. Astronaut (talk) 09:42, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

It doesnt sound like russian —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.58.82 (talk) 12:56, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

What songs can we listen to to hear the language? Fribbler (talk) 16:16, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Why do people need to be fluent in a language to sing in it? There are lots of examples of songs where the singer learned the words fo-net-tick-all-lee and never actually learned the language of the song. --Jayron32 01:00, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

They don't. As a quick example, Richie Valens did not speak Spanish, yet he sang "La Bamba" acceptably. I've heard from musically-inclined friends that even if someone doesn't speak a language, good singers will try to understand the words and meaning of a particular song they're singing. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 02:02, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Plenty of people use Faux Cyrillic just because it looks cool. ZS 17:02, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Handkerchiefs as fashion accessories.

This is a silly question I know - but bear with me. I am going to a wedding tomorrow so I have been instructed to take a proper linen handkerchief with me instead of my usual tissues. Which got me to thinking about how we humans have managed to see such accessories as fashion items instead of functional necessities. Think of what you actually DO with a hanky - yuk - and then ask why it needs to be pure white, made of washable fabric that looks nice when ironed, and looks even better when embroidered with your initials. Then think of sexy underwear - for both sexes - they were originally designed to keep your outerwear free from urine and faecal staining - SEXY? - I think not. And what about spectacles? Usefully designed to compensate for poor vision, they now cost an arm and a leg and change designs more often than underwear changes (joke). And womens' brassieres - a clothing item designed to support sagging mammary glands - functional in true intent - but now deemed absolutely essential to the fashionista. So - the question? How have we become so immune to the idiocy that pervades such conflicts between functionality and fashion; and how do we even manage to ignore the significant cost differentials? I mean, if I wear a pair of CK's instead of their Walmart equivalent, do I look more like David Beckham as a result? I will answer that myself? NO. 92.23.93.206 (talk) 16:36, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Seems to me there was a discussion recently about marketers "creating markets". And nowhere is that more evident than the fashion industry. However, there is no law compelling you to conform. That's still a personal choice. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 17:41, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

We like to avoid thinking about and drawing attention to such things. That's why table manners developed: to elevate an animal instinct and biological necessity, and something that may have rather unpleasant connotations (ie: the killing of an animal; cutting flesh with knives; feeding the body) to something refined and orderly. Exploding Boy (talk) 16:51, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

As you say, you ask many silly questions. Dressy garb for men can include a "pocket square", a bit of silk of compatible color to one's necktie, worn in the left pocket of the jacket. If you fold it right, all four corners show. You never ever blow your nose into it. Nor do you ever put a pocket protector full of pens, mirrors, and scales into that pocket. PhGustaf (talk) 17:04, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

"One for showing, one for blowing." As far as folding, there's no one "right" way; the number of points, and the style of folding, is one of the rare pieces of sartorial freedom in men's formal wear. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 17:22, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

That was what I was going to say, too, the old saw, "One to show, one to blow." Regarding folding, though, the men should all be dressed identically, right? So they should probably come to consensus on the manner of folding. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 17:39, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Our article Fashion, not a bad article, says, "The beginnings of the habit in Europe of continual and increasingly rapid change in styles can be fairly reliably dated to the middle of the 14th century". Bastards. Tempshill (talk) 18:05, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, around the time of the emergence from the Dark Ages, right? After the Black Death had run its course, maybe? One good thing about the plague, for the survivors anyway, was that it caused a labor shortage, so wages tended to rise - along with, presumably, a rise in interest in caring about fashion and other items that are well down the "hierarchy of needs" list. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots

There was no such thing as the dark ages, and if there was, it certainly did not end in the 14th century! Argh! *asplode* But yeah, otherwise you might be right, although the kinds of people who benefitted from the plague (labourers who could demand higher wages and who were no longer tied to the land) are not usually the same as the kinds of people who set fashion trends. As with now they were probably set by the rich/nobility. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:04, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Do you mean that people have wrong ideas about the Dark Ages (which ended long before 1348), or what? —Tamfang (talk) 23:11, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

My eyeglasses are functional, but they are also always visible, so why should I want them to be ugly? For that matter, if I wore a brassière, why wouldn't I prefer a pretty one to an ugly one, even if I'm the only one to see it? —Tamfang (talk) 23:11, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Many white-things that shouldn't be white will have their roots in 'showing off' that you can afford to keep purchasing them to keep them smart, and also that you are clean and respectable so you must be of a high class (or at least high enough that your work is not dirty). ny156uk (talk) 20:09, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

The point of many such apparently arbitrary and culturally variable requirements in dress and/or behaviour is not their own intrinsic value (though they may have some - for example an otherwise unused handkerchief is always useful to me to polish my spectacles) but that your displaying them demonstrates that you are willing to go to some trouble to learn about and conform with them and thus demonstrate your respect for those with whom you are mingling. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 23:58, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Clothing fashion is not unlike evolution of species in that we can never tell where it will take us, we have to marvel at the diversity and bizzareness of the developed fashions and we spend time wondering for what reason this or that has developed (as if there was a cogent reason). However unlike the evolution of species fashion eventually repeats itself over an unspecified timespan. 86.4.181.14 (talk) 06:18, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

No kidding. Perhaps you've heard of the big controversy during the Ice Age, over whether saber-toothed tiger skins or wooly mammoth skins were more hep. :) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 06:42, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

There is of course a whole nother level to the hanky thing, and wikipedia of course has an extensive article[16] about it. PhGustaf (talk) 21:17, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Great! The more hanky-panky, the better! Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 21:41, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Q. What would you say to a little hanky-panky?

A. Nice to meet you, little hanky-panky. :) -- JackofOz (talk) 21:13, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

This is perhaps the most clumsily Bowdlerized joke about Harlan Ellison ever. PhGustaf (talk) 21:22, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, there you go: unconscious clumsy bowdlerization - what! no article? I've never heard of Ellison. I heard this joke on Laugh-In in the late 1960s. I can't remember who asked the question, but Goldie Hawn gave the answer. The things we remember. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:31, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Ellison is a very excellent science-fiction writer who is by observation short and by reputation irascible. A well-known but unsourced story involves his alleged encounter with a young woman in an elevator, with "hanky-panky" replaced by a firmer word. Another such story involves a 3'11" actor who, though on his promise of good behavior, told Sophia Loren "I'd like to firmer word you." She is said to have said, "Well, if you did, and I noticed..." PhGustaf (talk) 20:51, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

A Circuit City(?) commercial showed a boyfriend with an electronic scoreboard on his date. Where's the commercial?

There is a video-game-like scoreboard on the top right or left of the TV screen. The man picks up his date. What he does determines how many points he earns or gets taken away. He tells her "Your eyes are so blue," and earns 100 points. She replies with, "Dude, they're brown!" and gets 200 points subtracted.

Then they're at a dinner in a restaurant. He listens to her, and keeps getting 50 points every few seconds for listening. He looks at another pretty girl walking by, and 1500 points get deducted. He tells his date, "Why can't other girls dress more like you?" Then he adds 2,000 points back to his score.

When he drops her off, he asks, "So, how about a kiss?" She looks scared, and 3,000 points get taken off. Then he says, "But we'll wait, 'til we really get to know each other!" Then he earns 10,000 points.

The scene cuts to the guy and the gal playing video games on a store video game display. I'm not quite sure whether this was a Circuit City commercial.

But will anyone here please help me find the commercial matching this description? I've been meaning to watch it again for years. (I've already tried searching for it, but I might not be using the right keywords because I still haven't found it yet.) --Let Us Update Special:Ancientpages. 18:21, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Please don't post the same question twice - you already asked this, and no-one has (so far) found an answer. — QuantumEleven 11:21, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like a Dating sim, you might find an answer following that article's links. Dmcq (talk) 16:54, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Blackberry Problem

_{Moved to the Computing Desk Fribbler (talk) 19:38, 6 August 2009 (UTC)}

August 7

ESUT post UME

When is ESUT having their post UME please? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ikenna Osita (talk • contribs) 04:38, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, what are you talking about? — QuantumEleven 11:14, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

This appears to be a good forum for asking about Post-UME stuff. (UME = University Matriculation Examinations, a nigerian exam). Fribbler (talk) 11:29, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

WW2 crime responsibility

The article says John Demjanjuk is being tried for the murder of thousands of people because they were killed while he worked as a guard at that camp. What exactly determines who is responsible and who was just doing what they were told? 71.176.139.194 (talk) 05:12, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

"Victor's justice" is the term for the victors in a war punishing members of the losing forces, while ignoring war crimes by their own forces. "I was merely following orders" has been discredited as a defense to be used by members of the losing side. Edison (talk) 05:17, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I was watching the Discovery Channel's reruns of their series of interviews with Walter Cronkite from 12 years ago. He talked about the Nuremberg Trials, and pointed out that those Trials were necessary, to stand up for something, to do something about the gross atrocities committed by the Nazis. "Victor's justice", yes, but something had to be done with those evil characters. Having said that, I'm not at all sure they've got the goods on Demjanjuk, and it looks kind of like scapegoating of a low-end figure in the Nazi regime, of which there aren't many left. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 07:33, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I deleted some comments [17], see Wikipedia talk:Reference desk#Deleted highly offensive comments for further discussion Nil Einne (talk) 10:29, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm hoping command responsibility will be a blue link... and it is! Take a look. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 10:52, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Let's get this straight - the Germans are prosecuting one of their ukrainian slaves for war crimes.?83.100.250.79 (talk) 11:02, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

No they are claiming he was an SS volunteer who literaly put people into gas chambers and turned on the gas. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 13:57, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Many believe Germany wants only to look tough on Nazi criminals, even if this means prosecuting an innocent man, that is possibly way to fragile to survive (literally) the process.Quest09 (talk) 11:29, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

It's not just Germany. After the Nuremberg trials, there was not a concerted efforts to get at lower levels of potential war criminals. When in the 1980s public pressure, from sources such as Simon Wiesenthal, shamed some governments into looking at what some of their citizens (or immigrants who later acquired citizenship) did in World War II, 40 years had already passed, and there were few perpetrators or reliable witnesses left alive to testify. In Canada, for example, the Commission of inquiry that looked into the matter only issued its report in late 1986, and prosecutions did not begin until the late 1980s. Most of the cases actually prosecuted around the world, such as Demjanjuk, Maurice Papon in France, or Imre Finta in Canada, turned into questions about the identity of the accused (i.e., is the 80+ year-old man now before trial the same person who did untold harm 40 some years ago ? How can one be sure ?), or why this person in particular is being prosecuted when he was just a cog in a huge machinery of repression and death. As more decades have passed since these later-day trials began, the underlying problems have become even more untractable, and the objective of achieving justice through trials is increasingly elusive. --Xuxl (talk) 15:47, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Buying Expensive Ballpoint Pens

Do high-end ballpoint pens such as Montblanc ones offer any performance advantages over cheaper ones that one can find in everyday department stores? Acceptable (talk) 09:17, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

They are often more comfortable to hold and write with, are usually more durable than cheap ones. They are also refillable, although only the very cheapest are not. But, in my opinion, you don't need to buy anything as high-end as a Montblanc to get all those features. Warofdreams talk 10:07, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Expensive pens are, effectively, jewellery. Like Warofdreams notes a quality pen will probably bring about certain benefits in terms of comfort, durability etc. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 10:42, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

It's like the answers to the earlier question about monogrammed handkerchiefs being any better to blow your nose into than a kleenex (or other disposable tissue). It's much better to be seen using the upscale model dahhlling. And bugger the cost. 92.10.85.217 (talk) 11:47, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

The better pens with a sealed ink refil are not prone to leaking in the same way that inexpensive 'biros' are. You can also assume that the pen will work (though only the very worse cheap pens have this problem)

beyond that it's all 'look and feel', and the quality of the clicking action.83.100.250.79 (talk) 12:43, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

The Space Pen offers a performance improvement over other ballpoint pens. (Even if you're not trying to write in hard vacuum.) but I don't know if it qualifies as "expensive" anymore. You can get them for about $20 at Staples. (Though they certainly sell expensive variants of it!) APL (talk) 03:55, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Economics of International Mail

How does International Mail work economically?

When a letter or package is sent overseas, does the destination country receive any compensation for receiving and delivering the mail? If so, how often are the "book's balanced" by monetary transaction?

How does this work for countries that there is a trade embargo against? When the US had a trade embargo against Libya, you were still able to send mail to Libya from the US. Did Libya profit from this interaction? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.5.192.140 (talk) 14:23, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Our article Universal Postal Union has some information - essentially payment is made on the difference in weight between post received by the country and post sent from the country. I do not know how trade embargoes would affect this. DuncanHill (talk) 15:03, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I have no citations to offer, but I recall reading that what the United States Postal Service does is roughly this, which shouldn't vary that much from other postal services' bilateral relations within the UPU:

• On one day each year, all the outbound mail destined for (say) the United Kingdom is weighed. And (I think on the same day) all the incoming mail arriving from (again, say) the UK is weighed. Then, after accounting (as mentioned in the UPU article) in each instance for the proportions of periodicals to other mail, the difference in weights is used to calculate the payment that the USPS either pays to or receives from the foreign post office, in this case the Royal Mail.

But I can't remember the precise mechanics. Perhaps the USPS would only weigh US mail going to the UK, and let the Royal Mail weigh the mail coming in the other direction on the same day. In each case, one country's post office would normally assume good faith and honest accounting from its foreign counterparty.

As for embargoes, they often make an exception for personal letters and sometimes for small non-commercial packages. One great advantage of international organizations like the UPU or the Red Cross is that they often offer a means by which otherwise-hostile nations can cooperate in a specific technical area without compromising their principles on the issues which divide them. —— Shakescene (talk) 07:22, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

New Kitten in House with Cats

How can we safely integrate a new kitten into our household? We have two adult cats, one an older male and one a female ragdoll that is about five or six years old. We've recently introduced a male shorthair kitten. All three have been fixed. The ragdoll, who is extremely gentle around humans, is very aggressive toward the kitten, attacking it repeatedly, even as the kitten cowers and tries submissive postures. We are considering declawing the ragdoll, but wonder if there are any other options available to us. John M Baker (talk) 14:55, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Whow. A bit late to ask for help! Adding a young male to an existing pair can be very difficult. The female will lose her place as the youngster gets older. So resents him. Also, does she think (are you actually?), spending time with the kitten that you used to spend with her? Is she jealous ? With reason ? Are the older cats sterile ? Answer these questions and some advice will be possible.90.0.6.92 (talk) 15:00, 7 August 2009 (UTC)DT

All three cats are sterile. We have not been giving any less attention to the ragdoll, but of course the new kitten gets lots of attention, so she may have a different perception. John M Baker (talk) 15:14, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Remain in a confined space with all three. Close the door to a small room and go about your usual activities while also interacting with all three. Convey dissaproval for any negative interacting between the three cats. Probably do this only verbally, and only mildly. Express approval at times that peace prevails. I think cats want your approval. The aim of a period of time in a confined space is to convey your desired expectations of each of them. It takes time for them to figure this out. You don't want them to inadvertently receive any unintended messages from you concerning any of this, so your expressions should be mild, and merely verbal. You are not forcing anything on them. You are allowing them to figure out what your wishes are concerning how they relate to one another. I would try to do this for an hour per day for one week, approximately. Bus stop (talk) 15:47, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Whatever the outcome please do not declaw the cat, even putting it to sleep would be preferable to that. If the kitten have no scratch marks from the attacks, the cat certainly has no intention of really harming it, even though it may look vicious in human eyes, but it is most likely only establishing itself in the hierarchy. The ragdoll and all cats of Persian-descent are generally not the most sociable of cats, and no perfect harmony between the kitten and the older cats may ever occurs, but in my experience they should eventually at least begin to tolerate each other. --Saddhiyama (talk) 15:59, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I can't believe someone would have a cat in their house and it is NOT declawed. How do you keep it from shredding everything? No claws is much better if the cat is going to be an indoor cat. Googlemeister (talk) 16:13, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Wrong. Utterly wrong. If the only way you can deal with behavioral issues is to maim an animal, you really should stick to goldfish. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 17:07, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Some people have different ways of dealing with unruly behavior. It isn't illegal in some places. I don't believe this is the place for such ethical discussions though.--Zarfol (talk) 17:48, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion, Bus stop. Saddhiyama, the ragdoll is scratching the kitten, not just intimidating it. Our view on declawing is that we will avoid it if possible, but we will declaw rather than put an animal to sleep. John M Baker (talk) 17:52, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Please consider a product like Soft Paws prior to a potentially painful surgical procedure. --LarryMac | Talk 18:03, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Choose between undeclawed cats and no decent furniture, or "maimed" cats and furniture which does not have the material shredded and the wood clawed. I have seen cats immediately jump on a new piece of upholstered furniture and start clawing it, while refusing to scratch a wooden or cloth covered official scratching post. There is a great selection of furniture at thrift shops, some pre-clawed, suitable for homes with cats having their claws. An indoor cat does not need the front claws. Do any cat vets refuse to declaw on moral grounds? Sticking to pets which live in aquariums or birdcages is another option. Cats (usually tomcats) routinely kill kittens which are not their offspring. You might have to choose between the kitten and the attacking cat. The attacker might be happier in a single cat home. Edison (talk) 18:02, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Declawing cats is considered animal cruelty and is illegal in many countries. A vets personal morals don't come into it. All you need to do is train your cat in how to behave. A sharp noise and a hiss whenever they do something wrong will usually suffice. --Tango (talk) 18:27, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

It's great that you have the freedom to follow your cat around 24 hours a day, seven days a week, hissing at her and making sharp noises until she is fully trained. Unfortunately, some of us must do other things, and it is distressing to come home and find the new sofa clawed to shreds. Edison (talk) 02:56, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Shut the cat out of the living room when you're not there, then. --Tango (talk) 04:14, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Not all living rooms have doors. And they can shred a bed or curtains or something else to amuse themselves. Unless you plan to lock them in the basement, or the bathroom, good luck with your stuff. 65.121.141.34 (talk) 16:28, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Cats will claw furniture to get attention (and boy! does it work!)and because they were not taught not to. Declawing includes the nailbed, that is some of the actual toes. It is painful and cruel.

You can get the ragdoll comfortable in your lap and TRIM its front claws with toe-nail clippers, no more than one-third of the way, to blunt the points. That is enough to save the kitten for now. They will have to work it out for themselves. The hour a day in a closed room is a good idea. Also give the kitten (supervised) time alone with the other cat, so he can make an ally. This is a good time to spend some quality time alone with the ragdoll, to reduce its jealousy.

Feed the kitten in the same room but 4 or 5 feet from the adults, putting the kitten's food down last. Stroke and pet the kitten and the ragdoll at the same time, so both understand you like them equally, but hiss at the ragdoll if she gets aggressive.(You can turn the stroking into a firm grip). This will tell her YOU are keeping the kitten, so she'd better get used to it. It also tells the kitten that you are on his side, so he will gain some confidence. Try talking to them throughout in a low comforting tone. Expect the fighting to settle down to threat displays only in about a week, then mutual avoidance, then toleration, with some arguments over right of way probably for months.(I've never heard of desexed domestic males killing kittens; lions allegedly will kill very young cubs of a mother they are hoping to mate, a totally different story and different cat).- KoolerStill (talk) 22:17, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Edison, Yes, a minority of vets refuse to declaw on moral grounds. (Some will make exceptions for certain extreme cases.) I've even heard of vets refusing to provide (non-emergency) care for declawed cats. Many cat vendors, like shelters and pet stores, will make you sign a contract agreeing not to declaw the cat. (I assume that they have no way of enforcing the contracts.)

I have to say I'm surprised at what seems to be a vast number of cats that are uncontrollable without removing their claws. This hasn't been my experience with cats, and I can't help but notice that cats are still popular housepets in parts of the world where declawing is unavailable. APL (talk) 03:43, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Could we avoid the debate on declawing and stick to the original question, please? Preferably providing, y'know, references? --Anon, 22:11 UTC, August 7, 2009.

De-clawing is legal in each of the 50 U.S. states. It is illegal in some other countries. When people have to choose between euthanizing or declawing a cat, personal values come into play. Please do not state your personal prejudice here as if it were a fact. (This is as inappropriate on Ref Desk as stating as a fact "Abortion is murder!" or "God favors religion X!") Indoor cats get along fine without claws. Cats who go outdoors need their claws, to fight to defend themselves, or for swift tree climbing, but will only live a fraction as long as indoor cats (due to disease, dogs, cars, etc). Clearly "declawing" is not like trimming fingernails. Rather, it is akin to severing the first joints of a human's fingers to prevent nose picking or banjo playing. (Original research warning:) A reliable young observer I know, who did an internship at a vet clinic, said that neutering cats was less gross than declawing. Now that's settled, we can move on to debate whether animal rights groups are correct that having a pet is "immoral" and akin to slavery. Edison (talk) 02:29, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

"Indoor cats" - as in cats that are never allowed outside the house? This isn't a concept I've come across here in the UK. I've never kept cats (more of a dog person) but it seems unfair and unnatural to keep them locked inside the house all the time. 93.97.184.230 (talk) 23:09, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I think your claims cats who go outdoors will only live a fraction of the live of indoor cats is likely too simplistic. Their average lifespan is likely to be shorter, but I don't think it's that much lower, particularly if you live in a relatively quiet (i.e. few cars) and safe (i.e. no stray or loose dogs, which in many countries is the law) neighbourhood but many will still live a relatively long lifespan, even more so if they are given adequete vetenerian care. My cat is currently in its 12th year and still relatively healthy. Obviously a single anecdotal example is useless, but I'm also aware of other cars about that age. I would like to see sources, particularly ones comparing different and consistent environments rather then just average lifespans (which will likely include ones living along busy streets and in places were dogs are not properly controlled)Nil Einne (talk) 09:36, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Indoor cat:14-20 years. Outdoor cat, 3-5 years, per per "Housecat" (2005) by Christine Church, page 19. Indoor, 14 to 18.Outdoor, 2 to 6, per "It's a Cat's World...You Just Live in It" by Justine A. Lee, page 41. It is quite common for cats to live exclusively indoors. "It is cruel" is just someone's personal viewpoint, and they are welcome to it. Edison (talk) 20:54, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Is it even safe to de-claw only a single cat in a household of three? Wouldn't the other cats quickly recognize that they had a tactical advantage in any disagreements? APL (talk) 03:43, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Cats don't usually use their claws in disagreements unless it gets really serious. Batting with claws retracted is much more common in my experience. That is why somebody above pointed out that is the kitten isn't getting injured by the other cat's claws (as is very likely), declawing would be totally pointless. --Tango (talk) 04:17, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

An alternative to declawing is nail caps [18] Nil Einne (talk) 09:36, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Why are IQ tests illegal but Personality and Integrity tests legal in employment screening?

Why is it not the other way around? ----madjello —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.171.0.134 (talk) 18:22, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Where are IQ tests illegal in employment screening? --Tango (talk) 18:28, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

It seems pretty unlikely to me. SteveBaker (talk) 18:38, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Veiled IQ tests are illegal where you cannot show predictive validity for the job at hand (Griggs v. Duke Power Co.). In effect, this means IQ or aptitude tests aren't used but by the largest employers (since small businesses cannot spend the money to validate the test; they just require a BA which functions as a disguised IQ and personality test). Personal opinion: the racial IQ gap is something that the lay public finds more offensive than personality differences between races, so you're less apt to offend the public if you find that race X has higher <insert personality trait/characteristic> scores than race Y. Integrity tests have a much easier naive explanation for their predictive validity, so they are not usually challenged. Basically, the mired history of intelligence testing has made the society such that they are hypersensitive to them whereas personality tests do not share that same stigma.--droptone (talk) 19:42, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Last time I checked, the United States Supreme Court did not have jurisdiction over the entire world. I propose banning Americans from the Ref Desks, their arrogance is getting on my nerves. (Yes, I'm generalising, I consider the few Americans that are aware of the existence of the rest of the world to be acceptable losses.) --Tango (talk) 19:56, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

You misspelled "generalizing." And please save the personal attacks for your favorite blog. Edison (talk) 02:38, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't live in Oxford. --Tango (talk) 03:24, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I think you have it backwards Tango. According to Global Internet usage There are 295.4 million English users of the internet, and according to List of countries by number of Internet users, 227.2 million of them (76.9%) are American, so it would appear that us Americans are pretty justified. The other 23% just need to take it in stride. Googlemeister (talk) 20:14, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Nonsense. You don't completely ignore a quarter of the population. --Tango (talk) 20:20, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Why? You just wanted to ignore 3/4. How about providing information rather than bigotry? --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 20:24, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Not ignore, ban. There is a difference. I know Americans exist. It's not bigotry, it's justified based on observations. --Tango (talk) 20:36, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

There are plenty of Brits who are just as bad. You probably just don't notice when they do it. One of my hot buttons is when they start referring to their dialect as "international English". --Trovatore (talk) 20:43, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

How often does that happen? I can't think when the last time I saw anyone say "international English" (before you did). --Tango (talk) 20:57, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Can you guys take this discussion somewhere else? Algebraist 21:25, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Your statistics are highly flawed. You're using figures from September 2004 in Global Internet Users and figures from 2009 in List of countries by number of Internet users. Hopefully no one here disagrees that the internet has changed a lot in nearly 5 years! (How many people here were even editing wikipedia in September 2004?) If we take the figure of 430.8 million English users in 2008 from Global Internet Users (from another group as the one you are using but the same group as the one you are using for your by country stats) we get a figure of ~52.7%. Or even more sensibly we go to the sources themselves. [19] gives 463,790,410 English users and [20] gives 227,190,989 for the US which is ~49.0%. This is of course presuming all Americans use English as their primary language on the internet (at least I think this is how IWS derive their stats, since they only assign one language per person) which I find fairly unlikely. It may be a fairly high percentage but it seems to me easily possible up to 5% and easily more, may not. I should mention that according to your flawed stats, there are [21] 88039115 internet users from Canada+UK+Australia+NZ despite being only 68209011 people who use English on the internet but aren't from the US, in other words 19830104 people from these countries who don't use English on the internet (I can imagine some in Canada who use French, but that's nearly the entire Canadian internet population). And none from India, Philippines, Pakistan, Malaysia, Nigeria, Hong Kong, South Africa, Singapore, Kenya, Ireland or any other country... While as I've already stated these are figures of people who primarily use English on the internet or whatever, coming from Malaysia myself I can say I find it very hard to believe that no one there primarily uses English... In other words, even without looking at the dates in the articles you took your figures from and realising you're using figures from very different dates, it should be obvious your figures are highly flawed. Then of course, there's the obvious fact that there are likely a fair number more who use some other language as their primary language on the internet, but are still likely to read and maybe even participate in some discussions that are in English. BTW, this sort of use of highly flawed statistics to prove a point I personally find much more aggrevating then any of the other stuff that's been discussed here (which I've purposely avoided getting in to) like presuming everyone else is from the same country as you or ignoring the fact what you are talking about only applies to one country, although I'm not saying only Americans do it Nil Einne (talk) 08:54, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Tango: His IP comes from a cox link in Georgia, the United States. I presumed...--droptone (talk) 20:55, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Since he didn't specify a country in the question, I would have assumed the same, but I would have specified the country in my answer. --Tango (talk) 20:57, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

An IQ test might serve as a substitute (In the U.S.) for just noting skin color. A high score on an IQ test does not automatically predict success as a firefighter, policeman, electrician, carpenter, garbage collector, welder, ironworker, bricklayer, crane operator, typist, customer service representative, bulldozer operator, or salesman. If I recall correctly, U.S. courts ruled that an employment test must be shown to have criterion-based predictive power for job success. A test should be valid and reliable. A company might have a consulting firm give a test to a pool of those who entered any of the above occupations, using a large bank of test items, and select test items which successfully correlated with completion of the training program and achievement of journeyman ironworker or whatever. Then there would be a valid basis for only accepting in the training program those who had a better chance of making the grade, based on the job-related and validated test. Edison (talk) 02:52, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

While there is a correlation between race and IQ, it isn't very strong. It's not going to make any real difference to an individual. --Tango (talk) 03:21, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

The only thing an IQ test can reliably measure is the ability to take an IQ test. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 12:40, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

You've been hanging around me too long! That's almost word for word my standard response to questions about IQ! --Tango (talk) 19:19, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

My dad used to say the same thing. Ironically, we both tended to score well on IQ tests. Come to think of it, that's how we know. :) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 19:36, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Griggs v. Duke Power Co. makes it clear that race is the deciding influence. To quote the article: "if such tests disparately impact ethnic minority groups, businesses must demonstrate that such tests are 'reasonably related' to the job for which the test is required." So it's ok to indirectly racially discriminate as long as you can show the people you're discriminating against are on average inferior.

UK Royal organiser

Who was in charge of the arrangements for the marriage of Charles and Diana on 29 July 1981 at St Paul's Cathedral? (Talk about Recentism: I can't find an article for the event, which was watched by hundreds of millions of people.) I am looking for the name of, presumably, a senior official in the Royal Household. BrainyBabe (talk) 19:10, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I can't find anything myself, but there's this section of the archive Times site that is dedicated to Charles and Diana's wedding (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/system/topicRoot/Wedding_of_Charles_and_Diana/) ny156uk (talk) 19:59, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

We have Prince_Charles#Engagement_and_wedding_to_Diana and Diana,_Princess_of_Wales#Engagement_and_wedding, but apparently no specific article. Neither mention the organisations, though. I'm not really sure where to start looking for that information... --Tango (talk) 20:03, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

And we have an article on Chas and Camilla's do. The Earl Marshall does coronations and funerals, but I seem to remember that Charlie's uncle Dickie had sketched out the bones of a wedding ceremony, though sadly he had been murdered by the time it was needed. DuncanHill (talk) 20:07, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

The Duke of Norfolk is the highest ranking peer. He handles Royal ceremony.90.4.245.191 (talk) 10:21, 8 August 2009 (UTC)DT

And of course the Dukes of Norfolk have held the office of Earl Marshall since the 17th Century. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 23:29, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

How to clean a braided leather belt

I have had the same braided leather belt for nearly 11 years. It is beginning to show its age a tad, and it needs a good cleaning. How do I go about cleaning it thoroughly without damaging the leather? --Abin Sur (talk) 19:19, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Saddle soap is the stuff. You can get it hard (in bars), or soft (in tins). The soft stuff is easier to use, but cognoscenti prefer the hard sort. Ask at your local horsey-shop or farm suppliers. DuncanHill (talk) 19:23, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

In the U.S., you can find saddle soap in small tins (like those for shoe polish) in stores that sell a wide range of shoe-care products. On the other hand, this auto-care site claims that saddle soap is not a cleaner but a compound for softening leather, so they recommend against using it to clean leather seats in your car. Could be hard to get all the soap out of the individual strands in a braided leather belt. --- OtherDave (talk) 21:24, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

It cleans and softens, which is why it's so good. Horsey types use it on all the fiddly leatherwork you need in order to stay on a horse. I use it on boots. DuncanHill (talk) 21:34, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

animal mistreatment question

In those countries where declawing cats is considered to be animal cruelty, is it also considered animal cruelty to shorten the tails of dogs? Googlemeister (talk) 19:27, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

According to our article on Onychectomy, "Although common in North America, declawing is rarely practiced outside North America and is considered an act of animal cruelty in certain other regions." Comparing the list of countries where tail docking and ear cropping are illegal in our article on Docking (animal) to the list of countries where declawing is illegal, it appears there's significant overlap, although admittedly I didn't cross reference very thoroughly. Exploding Boy (talk) 19:36, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

See Docking_(dog)#Legal_status. I'll read it myself after I've eaten! --Tango (talk) 19:37, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Docking. That's what it is called. Will take a look. Googlemeister (talk) 20:08, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

From an Irish perspective, declawing is punishable by imprisonment here, whereas Docking is legal (likely as a result of Farm lobbying). Fribbler (talk) 00:50, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Is neutering legal in countries where declawing is illegal? Do the critters get a say in it? How about slaughtering? Edison (talk) 03:40, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't know of any country where neutering is illegal. Lots of countries have restrictions on the slaughtering of animals - requiring it to be done humanely, requiring it to be done in a licensed abattoir (for food purposes, anyway), etc. Killing members of endangered species is often illegal. --Tango (talk) 04:23, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I believe neutering is illegal is Sweden. Exploding Boy (talk) 04:45, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Seems unlikely to me since [22] is apparently involved in Trap-Neuter-Return in Sweden and [23] mentions two neuter cats although [24] and [25] both suggest neutering dogs is very rare (but don't say it is illegal) Nil Einne (talk) 09:20, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

In Finland the answer is yes. --194.215.122.213 (talk) 16:44, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, there you go: you can't always believe what you read in books. On the other hand, it's possible that neutering is only permitted in populations at risk or to reduce animal overpopulation, such as among strays. Exploding Boy (talk) 16:48, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Oh, neutering is allowed in Finland. I should have read the above a bit better. --194.215.122.213 (talk) 16:51, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

About the First Two Rules of Wikipedia...

Whatever does it mean if you "talk about Fight Club", on this website, anyway? --Ericthebrainiac (talk) 22:59, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Don't forget rule #3: If today is your first day at Wikipedia, you edit! --Jayron32 23:05, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Having an article on Fight Club clearly bars us from being a member of Fight Club. So instead we write articles: "His name was Robert Paulson"...Fribbler (talk) 00:27, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

August 8

Rabbits in KY?

I am in an argument with my brother who posts the question "Do all wild rabbits in Kentucky have white tails?"98.19.132.102 (talk) 16:03, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

First you'd have to identify all the species of rabbits and hares in Kentucky. That could take awhile. Then study them and find out about the tails. If so, there's probably an evolutionary reason for it, as with deer. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 16:34, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

You might want to go down the list of rabbit species in the Rabbit article. I did so briefly and I couldn't find anything but cottontails native to Kentucky, but you'll want to check it more carefully. Also Hare. APL (talk) 17:43, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Another way of phrasing this assertion is "of the millions of wild rabbits in Kentucky, not a single one has a birth defect that removes the tail or makes it a different color, not a single one has had its tail bitten off by a fox, not a single one has been painted pink by cruel children or had its tail colored purple in a pokeberry patch". That seems like a tall order to me. --Sean 20:33, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I would guess he's talking more about species than individuals, but perhaps he could clear that up for us? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 00:46, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

¶ [Who better than Bugs to expound upon the tails of his bluegrass relations? ;-) ] —— Shakescene (talk) 06:39, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Those are some of my poor relations. They're always ready for a touch. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 10:26, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

When I read the header, I had visions of a very down-market version of pheasant in aspic.  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 05:41, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeh, you had to go and bring that up... along with the mental picture of the cliche about "mating" rabbits. Eek! Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 06:07, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Feet

Recently, there was an article in the news about a foot being found at a N.Y. recycling plant. Today it said on the news that the foot was that of a grizzly bear. Considering that the foot was apparently lacking coverings, how could the person waho found it mistake it for a human foot? (And, yes they did assume that that's what it was.) Also, is there anything on Wikinews about the feet that have been washing up on B.C. shorelines for a while now? Library Seraph (talk) 20:19, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Ha, I can't believe we have an article about the BC feet. One of those was also fake/not human, if I remember correctly. Adam Bishop (talk) 20:49, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Bear feet and human feet are actually quite similar, as noted briefly on Foot#Forensics. One of the external links on that page links to a comparison guide by the United States Fish and Wildlife Service here (pdf). Apparently it's really quite common, and bear paws have even been used to prank people! ~ Amory (user • talk • contribs) 21:36, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks guys! The pictures in that guide were quite enlightening-I can see how if someone found a foot and didn't look to closely, it might be mistakable for a human foot(Because seriously, who wants to do a rogorous investigation of a foot?) Library Seraph (talk) 19:46, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

A question about changing lights

Hey yall Im trying to replace my passenger side fog like on my 2002 chevrolet silverado 2500hd, and i cannot seem to get the bolts that hold the bracket in place to come off or out. does anyone know if it is a special bolt or something or how to change the whole foglight assembly ? any advice would be helpfull and greatly appreciated, thanks yall

Saved from How to replace fog light assembly on 2002 chevrolet 2500hd on NPP. User directed to here. ninety:one 22:08, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

August 9

what does<dracula> talking about??

what does<dracula> talking about??(book) written by pauline francis

i want a plot of this book about 100-150 words. thanks!!Dansonncf (talk) 10:11, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Welcome to the Wikipedia Reference Desk. Your question appears to be a homework question. I apologize if this is a misevaluation, but it is our policy here to not do people's homework for them, but to merely aid them in doing it themselves. Letting someone else do your homework does not help you learn how to solve such problems. Please attempt to solve the problem yourself first. If you need help with a specific part of your homework, feel free to tell us where you are stuck and ask for help. If you need help grasping the concept of a problem, by all means let us know. Thank you.. 152.16.59.102 (talk) 10:38, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

We have an article on Dracula, including a plot summary. It still may be a good idea to read the homeopathic version published by Fast Track Classics, even if you think this sucks. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 10:56, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Banks cheating

What stops a bank from creating a false account with hundreds of billions of dollars in it, and then use it to buy out their competitors? --Leptictidium (mt) 10:57, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Auditors, for one. And general government scrutiny anytime there's a big merger or acquisition. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 11:20, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Laws against fraud. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 11:48, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Since when has a law against fraud prevented fraud?86.202.27.124 (talk) 12:59, 9 August 2009 (UTC)DT

That's why there are people whose job it is to enforce those laws. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 13:20, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Banks have to settle transactions at the central bank sooner or later. When they were unable to do so the authorities would get called in and would sort out the mess and the people responsible would go to jail. --Tango (talk) 15:26, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Of course, sometimes it takes quite a while before the authorities notice that assets are missing. How long it takes may depend on the type of institution, but it can still happen even with a bank. --Anonymous, edited 18:53 UTC, August 9, 2009.

I don't think Nick Leeson ever created money. He just made bad trades and hid them from his bosses. Bernard Madoff did lie about how much money he had in his accounts, but I don't think he ever trade to use non-existent money in transactions. --Tango (talk) 22:44, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

To a bank, an account is a liability: the bank is obligated to pay the owner of the account. Creating a false account is like creating a new debt. Not very smart, is it? DOR (HK) (talk) 04:28, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Travelling to Cuba - advice required.

I am going to Cuba for a week's escorted tour staying in several hotels along the way before staying in a Havana hotel for a couple of days before then flying to one of the all-inclusive cayos for a week's beach break. I ma British and have several friends who have done this and they all report that I will have a brlliant holiday. I have also done a load of online and library research and whilst most reports are good, I have seen some that worry me. For instance, I am told that some of the hotels we will use have room safes that are locked with the room key so anyone who has room access has safe access too - and some reports have said their safes have been emptied (or robbed) by presumably staff members though denials by management were well - rehearsed. So, having said that, and having myself been the victim of theft in several European and US hotels (nothing expensive as we don't travel that way - but inconveneient nonetheless), my concern about that happening in Cuba is the risk of losing Passports, Credit/Debit Cards, Cash money, Flight Tickets and Visas none of which can be readily replaced in Cuba as I understand matters. I am not too bothered about cameras or watches or items of clothing disappearing but the other stuff is mega-important. So do I have to carry them with me wherever I go, even to the poolside or the Beach? Thanks folks. 92.8.203.168 (talk) 12:50, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

This [26] site contains reviews by guests of 75 hotels and 63 B&Bs in Havana. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 13:25, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Is Silly Putty Bulletproof?

Due to its non-Newtonian nature, when struck with a high-velocity object such as a hammer, Silly Putty hardens, thus preventing penetration of the object. But can silly putty be used to stop bullets? Acceptable (talk) 14:16, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Take some and see if you can stab a pencil through it quickly. That will suggest the answer to your question. Watch your hand, though. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 14:18, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

And by the way, a fired bullet would make a "high velocity" hammer strike look like it's standing still. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 14:19, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Anything is bullet proof if you have enough of it. The real question is how much silly putty would be required to stop a bullet. I have no idea what the answer is, though! --Tango (talk) 15:28, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

See [27] for the idea used for skiers. I don't believe it is practical for armour but there are some other ideas which would have the same effect and could work. Dmcq (talk) 15:33, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Yes and No - it just shatters unfortunately. However you might be interested in this https://www.inventables.com/technologies/impact-hardening-fluid (click the details tab).

In fact the idea of using an anti- thixotropic Dilatant material is quite a common idea eg [28] (seems it's the same D3O^TM? material mentioned above by Dmcq ) 83.100.250.79 (talk) 15:34, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

I was thinking in terms of a single unit of silly putty. Anything will stop a bullet if there's enough of it. I think they use cotton to receive the bullet in ballastics tests. A single cotton ball won't impact a bullet much, but a sufficiently large box of them will. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 19:54, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

See Ballistic gelatin. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 22:23, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

How much money does a chronic alcoholic need to feed their habit?

I submitted this question yesterday, but it seems to have been deleted or lost somehow. Assuming the alcoholic drinks conventional alchoholic drinks of some kind. I'm wondering how big an impact the cost would have on their personal or family income. I recall that when I asked this question yesterday, Wikipedia seemed to think that it contained an url, even though there wasnt one. Thanks. 78.151.123.131 (talk) 15:37, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

That question is impossible to quantify without more parameters. 1. Over what period (days, months, years, decades...)? 2. Drink(s) of choice (beer, wine, spirits, champagne...)? 3. Capacity to remain conscious (gender, height, weight, ethnic origin, length of alcoholism... play factors)? -- Alexandr Dmitri (Александр Дмитрий) (talk) 15:44, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

According to this website, it can cost as much as $11,648.00 per year! Mgmvegas (talk) 16:14, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Of course that is an expensive choice of drink. I'd imagine a person drinking a bottle of spirits a day would choose a supermarket own-brand whiskey and cut the cost in half. Fribbler (talk) 16:46, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Boone's Farm is only about $4 a bottle... Cheapest crap I know. Dismas|^(talk) 16:59, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes jim beam is a rather expensive choice of brew, however so is Jägermeister and I know this dude who buys the larger bottle of jager and its like 13 bucks plus he buys beer as well. You have to imagine that hardcore alcholics spend at least over $6,000 on brew. Mgmvegas (talk) 17:13, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

From experience of working with alcoholics, the question is impossible to answer for all the reasons given above, but also, and probably more importantly, alcohol is a drug of utter dependence, which obliterates judgement and all sensibility. If the money outlasts consciousness there will be no monetary limits - alternatively, if consciousness outlasts available funds, the only limit will be the initial sum available - and that is when the sufferer, because that is what he or she truly is, will beg, borrow, steal or worse, sell themselves for more drink. Pity them - they are people with families and lives, usually broken. And unlike opiates, alcohol is a drug that some of us can enjoy in moderation without it making us addicts. The best way to give up being an alcoholic? Easy - just give up one drink a day - the first one. Believe me - there is no other way. 92.20.135.252 (talk) 17:14, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Even worse is an addiction to food - you can't abstain completely from food. --Tango (talk) 17:28, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

I heard a bloke on the radio yesterday who said he drank up to 9 litres of cider per day (I find it astonishing that anyone could survive drinking 9 litres of anything per day, but this person reports their brother does the same). Tesco charge £3 for 2 litres of Dry Blackthorn, so that works out at £13.50 per day, or £4927.50 per year. I'd imagine that, by buying in bulk, picking a super-discount brand, and doing canny shopping things like knowing where to get stuff discounted just before/after its sell-by date, that a dedicated purchaser could push that cost below £4000/yr. That's really not a huge amount, and given that the person doesn't really have to eat (9 litres of cider works out at nearly 3000 calories) and that the drinking is much of their recreation (no cruising or playstation games or expensive ballroom dance lessions needed) it's a cheap, if abjectly horrific, way to live. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 17:28, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

That's just the mere cost of buying the alcohol. From my experience working as a volunteer for a well-known worldwide organisation for alcoholics, you also have to factor in things like costs of consequences of alcoholism. These can be, including but not limited to: DUI/other criminal charges, lost of income (loss of job and potentially your house), cost of healthcare, financial costs if the family splits up... Ask a group of 20 alcoholics and you will get 20 different answers. As to the advice given by the doctor that maybe if an alcoholic used a calculator it would deter them from drinking makes me seriously question his understanding of the physical and psychological dependence on alcohol an alcoholic has. -- Alexandr Dmitri (Александр Дмитрий) (talk) 17:52, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

I wonder how much a year's worth of Thunderbird would cost. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 19:57, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

"3 Buck Chuck," or Charles Shaw wine sells for 2 to 4 dollars (U.S.) a bottle. Two bottles a day would handle most alcoholics, requiring about an hour's pay each day at minimum wage. Box wine is also cheap. Edison (talk) 02:52, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Notability

How many reliable sources do you need to make something notable. The Red Peacock (talk) 15:41, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

It's irrelevent, being referenced by a any number of reliable sources does not make a subject notable - please read the guidelines on notability you linked to. Specifically the bit about "general notability guidlines" 83.100.250.79 (talk) 15:47, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

It's not irrelevant. The general notability guidelines do involve mentions in reliable sources. It is not as simple as just a number of sources, though. --Tango (talk) 17:26, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Exactly - the number is irrelevent.83.100.250.79 (talk) 18:16, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

The number isn't irrelevant, it is just one of many factors. --Tango (talk) 22:40, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

If a subject is not notable it won't make it notable by providing reliable sources for information on that subject. Reliable sources are not a guarantee of notability quote:"... means that substantive coverage in reliable sources establishes a presumption, not a guarantee, that a subject is suitable for inclusion."

Also there are further requirements for those 'reliable sources' - reading the WP:Notability article would help. 83.100.250.79 (talk) 18:30, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Substantial is as important or more important than reliable. A person whose name is mentioned in passing in ten reliable newspaper articles, but where none of the articles deals with that person in depth would be LESS notable than someone who had a single reliable book-length biography written about them. Its about the quantity and quality of reliable text, not about the number of citations. --Jayron32 18:39, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

There is a section in an essay Wikipedia:Existence_≠_Notability#Don't_create_an_article_on_a_news_story_covered_in_109_newspapers which gives an example of why number of reliable sources isn't always everything.83.100.250.79 (talk) 18:51, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

What do fighter pilots actually do?

I'm a computer programmer. My father is an architect. My cousin is a fighter pilot. My typical workday consists of receiving feature requests and bug reports from internal testers and end users, and handling each of them by writing new code or fixing bugs in old code, testing that they work, and sending the fixes to the internal testers before shipment to customers. I imagine my father's typical day consists of creating 3D models of buildings and calculating every detail about how well they will work, and how much work and money they will cost to actually implement. But what does a fighter pilot's working day actually contain? What do they actually do when flying the planes? Are they told to fly from point A to point B and back, or something? Do they get paid for just being able to fly the planes or do they have a further use or purpose? Of course, in wartime, fighter pilots are needed to shoot down enemy planes, but I can't imagine what actual content their job has in peacetime. JIP | Talk 19:48, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

I would imagine a lot of it is exercises to simulate actual warfare as closely as possible, so they are ready if they are needed. There are quite a lot of jobs like this; firefighters spend more time in training than actually fighting real fires and attending real accidents, etc. It would be nice to hear from a real fighter pilot -- Q Chris (talk) 20:21, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm not a fighter pilot, but I'm a licensed private pilot. One of the first lessons a pilot learns is to, regardless of distractions, fly the airplane. The fighter pilot has a lot of radios and computers and weapons to handle, but unless he flies the airplane he just makes a smoking hole in the ground and all that stuff is useless. It goes without saying that "he' includes "she" here. PhGustaf (talk) 21:01, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Fighter pilots, as with any pilots, have to stay in a state of readiness, whether they're actually in a combat mission or not. Otherwise, as Ph suggests, they could end up augering into the farm they buy. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 21:04, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

One of the best flight lessons I ever had was from a grizzled old-timer giving me a check ride. I followed the procedures, and turned down the throttle just after takeoff and took a gentle turn to avoid the golf course. He firewalled the throttle, straightened the plane out, and said, "Fuckem. They don't care if you crash, why do you care if they miss their putt?" Best advice ever. PhGustaf (talk) 21:16, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Did it occur to your grizzled oldtimer that those golfers get to vote on whether your airport stays open or not? DJ Clayworth (talk) 19:33, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Brilliant! Gotta love those guys. At any rate, as has been said, fighter pilots need to fly. Hundreds and thousands of hours flight time, maneuvers, technical limits, worst-case scenarios, etc. It's a hugely technical process, and increasingly so, and can require a very studious ethic. I'd recommend reading Yeager: An Autobiography - it's a great read, but it deals with a lot of the technical aspects of flying, and that was 50 years ago! As for what their job is during peacetime, well, they're in the Military, which is a full-time occupation. The role of the Military in peacetime is another question altogether, but deterrence and rapid response in a downfall of order seem to be the standing orders. ~ Amory (user • talk • contribs) 22:07, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

My scariest moment in an aircraft was the time I was practicing maneuvers solo in my Cessna 150 and managed to enter a full-power spin. I learned very quickly that the ailerons did not work well in that circumstance. Fortunately, I had 8'000 feet or so under me, and it took me only 2'000 feet to recover. Altitude and airspeed are good. The book procedure for a fighter pilot in this case would be to eject, but a) I didn't have an ejection seat handy and b) it would have been a bummer to show up at the airport missing an airplane. PhGustaf (talk) 22:32, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Surely a fighter pilot would try and recover from a spin like that - those planes aren't cheap (and if you're over enemy territory you risk capture by ejecting)! They would eject before they hit the ground, of course. --Tango (talk) 22:38, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

My spin was in a Cessna 150, one of the most forgiving aircraft ever. Somewhere around I used to have a manual for a P-51, which would lose 10'000 feet before recovery in a full-power spin. Modern fighters are pretty much bricks with big engines. PhGustaf (talk) 23:30, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Fighters, especially modern fighters, spin very differently from General Aviation aircraft. DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:58, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

How did you manage to get out of the spin? 89.240.34.84 (talk) 22:39, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

I remembered my lessons, eased off on the stick, got the aircraft level once it started flying again, and recovered from the resulting dive. All in a day's flying, given adequate airspace underneath. It was a good thing I learned this lesson at 8'000 feet rather then 400'. PhGustaf (talk) 23:05, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Can I suggest you actually look up spin recovery technique for any aircraft you fly. It used to be compulsory to learn it, but I gather it isn't now. The technique you describe above, "ease off on the stick" will sometimes work but it's not the recommended technique. I strongly suggest reading the proper technique. It could be the difference between life and death. Here is a good starting point. DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:52, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

May I suggest you lose the condescending attitude? I have had training in real spins, and can recover from them quite handily. My explanation was simplified, but reasonable: with a mile of air under you in a C-150, just letting go of the controls until the aircraft starts flying itself again, and recovering from the resulting dive, is a reasonable technique, if perhaps a challenging one to one's underwear. (Yes, getting the throttle off happens sometime.) Spin training with a mile of air under me taught me to never ever get close to a spin at pattern altitude. Which is after all what it's for. PhGustaf (talk) 19:20, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Not intending to be condescending here, but if you thought that what you described was the best approach to spin recovery then my main objective was to potentially save your life. If you do indeed know the correct spin recovery method then fine. Forget I said anything. DJ Clayworth (talk) 19:32, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

What is this "peacetime" you are all talking about? There are wars going on all the time and fighter pilots will be doing tours of duty in Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. they will also be on standby in airbases at home in case of invasion, they will be on aircraft carriers ready to go into action anywhere they are needed, etc. etc. When they are in one of those places but not flying they will be keeping up-to-date with the situation, political, strategic and meteorological, they will be making sure their plane is in working order (there will be technicians for that, of course, but I'm sure the pilots keep an eye on them), they will be doing training drills and exercises, etc. etc.. When they aren't in one of those places they will either be on leave or training (which is much the same as action, just not real). --Tango (talk) 22:38, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

A paperback autobiography I happen to have in reach is Mustang Pilot, by Richard E Turner. Dated 1969, it is about his experiences in WWII. I think there are several other fighter-pilot autobiographies from that war. You have to admire their bravery - most of them were killed. 89.240.34.84 (talk) 22:38, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

As is well-known, fighter pilots endure long periods of profound boredom punctuated by moments of stark terror. B00P (talk) 01:14, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I recall a pilot saying, "Altitude is everything. Nobody ever crashed into the sky." DOR (HK) (talk) 04:32, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Read "Fighter Pilot" by Paul Richey--Artjo (talk) 11:14, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Tango has the best answer so far. The peacetime job of a combat pilot is to be ready for wartime. Flying tasks will mostly be exercises, which will probably include destination flights, formation flying , low-level flying and some live-fire exercises. If your cousin is a fight pilot you probably have better access to this information than most of us. DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:47, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Don't forget the occasional airshow that those guys might put on. 65.121.141.34 (talk) 16:22, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

And racing Top Gear presenters. --Tango (talk) 20:08, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

There's on old saying about the uselessness of the runway behind you, the altitude above you, and the fuel still in the truck. PhGustaf (talk) 19:27, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I wonder if they ever need to practise a regular gun? --194.197.235.26 (talk) 21:45, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Spare a thought for helicopter pilots who have to train hard not to use the ejector seat. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 22:16, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Changes in DNA

I have moved this question to Wikipedia:Reference desk/Science#Changes in DNA, as I think it's better suited there. JIP | Talk 21:03, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Help Me Search On Google

I am not here to start a debate or ask anybody for their opinion.

I am here to ask for help and advice. I want you to be a guide to help me do something that I don't know how to do myself.

I have been trying to search myself on the Internet, on Google, for responses by humanists about the world government or globalism criticism by the Christian right. I don't know what key words should I type in or how to search. I have been trying to search but I couldn't find any websites or webpages written by humanists responding to this particular criticism.

So can you please show me links to specific websites or articles which are humanists' response to this particular criticism? If not, then can please tell and advise me how to search and what key words to type?

I need advice.

Bowei Huang (talk) 23:32, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Google "bullshit" or the latin "Pulvus Taurei" and you have an answer. Seriously, though; check out one of the following: [29], or our very own Secular humanism article. I know "humanist/agnostics" who are far right and far left. But I can guarantee that world-government never features. My own mother is a a secular humanist, and she hasn't replaced my visits with a U.N. ambassador. After much verbosity....I feel this a soapbox.! Fribbler (talk) 23:53, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Bowei Huang, if you'd like to understand what people actually believe, why don't you try to engage with them in an equal and understanding manner? I've spent a lot of time with secular humanists; I've never heard one suggest a world government is a good idea. The idea of a world government was popular during the Cold War because it was seen as the only way to get around the nuclear question between superpowers. Today that sort of thing is a lot less popular, amongst all people, secular humanists included. I think the reason you aren't finding what you are looking for is because it's really not the relevant issue—if you ask a secular humanist what they are most excited about, it is not world government. (Of course, there is variance there as well, but in all my dealings with secular humanists, I've never once heard the idea discussed, and all the ones I know personally would be very dubious about such an idea.) --98.217.14.211 (talk) 00:27, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with 98. It has been difficult to refute the allegations you have been posting because they are un-serious enough that probably nobody out there has bothered to refute them. It is a little like telling us, "I have read that computer technicians want a flat tax. Can anyone refute this?" The two subjects have little or nothing to do with each other, so whoever makes the allegations has to provide some pretty strong proof that it's the case. I know that the authors you've cited have found an organization that calls itself a secular humanist organization and that one of their many, many aims is that they are sympathetic to a world government at some point in the distant future; but you might just as well find a computer technician organization that advocates the flat tax. There isn't a refutation at hand, because those authors have not provided any meaningful evidence. Tempshill (talk) 01:36, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

The secular humanists I hang around with[[30]] are middle-aged to eldering folks who enjoy listening to whichever "liberal" speaker happens to show up each week and having a nice potluck lunch afterwards. "World government" comes up less often in our conversation than, "Eeew, okra again." We're like Unitarians, but less dogmatic. PhGustaf (talk) 03:34, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Bowei, you've created some weird hypothesis about some connection between secular humanists and trying to take over the world; and now your looking for narrowly defined evidence to back up your hypothesis. Sadly, given the wealth of shit availible on the internet, you will likely find it, or at least find something that you can claim will support your hypothesis. You can prove anything with enough time to search and enough willingness to ignore any evidence which does not support your worldview. Heck, if David Icke can be taken serious by more than one person in the world, than you can pretty much find anything you want to "support" any harebrained conspiracy theory out there. --Jayron32 05:34, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Having problems finding a pair of words occurring on the same web page using google indicates you are close to a Googlewhack, i.e. the terms are unrelated. Dmcq (talk) 15:10, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

There are certainly people who think that a world government of some sort might be a good idea. After all a world government might be able to stop massacres in Rwanda and Darfur, force Zimbabwe to actually feed its people. DJ Clayworth (talk) 16:51, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure why the evangelical types Bowei has been reading about are so opposed to it - it's a necessary component of the rapture. Oh well, I guess we can't expect them to be logically consistent. Adam Bishop (talk) 19:56, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Welcome to the Reference Desk, Bowei. Since you asked for help on how to search, please read:

• Google - Google search basics: Basic search help
• Microsoft Bing - Search effectively
• Yahoo! - Search Basics
• Wikipedia - Wikipedia:SEARCH

We also have a WikiBook, "How To Search", with information on major search providers. Each of these services have different algorithms and different philosophies about the way search result information will be presented to you. You might find our list of search engines helpful if you want to locate other web- and offline- search databases. Nimur (talk) 21:03, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Denver Residential Area Map / Population Density Map?

Hello,

I'm trying to figure out where people actually live in Denver. Does anyone know where I could get a map of the residential / commercial zones or the population density?

--Grey1618 (talk) 04:08, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

http://www.census.gov/ is a good place to start. --Jayron32 05:29, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Denver Zoning Report, Map of neighborhood boundaries, Land use and transportation map. 152.16.59.102 (talk) 05:39, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

iPod Woes

I was gifted an iPod Nano two years back. A few days ago, it fell from my computer desk while charging, and from that moment on, it's touch sensitive wheel has stopped working, and the display screen's frozen on the language menu. Googling turned up results as diverse as people telling others to paint the wheel with varnish, or sticking scotch tape, and even trying to bang the device against a hard surface to unstick the hard drive. Needless to say, none of these remedies have worked for me... Causing me to turn up here, hoping for a better answer.. Please help fix my iPod. It's a gift I'll be sorry to say goodbye to... And I'm sure the person who gave it to me won't be particularly happy either.. Please help me out guys..... 117.194.225.119 (talk) 06:27, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I really hope you didn't actually bang the device against a hard surface.... That could easily loosen more parts inside and break it even further, especially if the soldering job isn't that great, like on Nintendo DSes. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 06:43, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Hitting a hard drive to unstick it is a well known technique, but you need to know what you are doing (a rubber mallet is preferable to hitting the drive against something). However, iPod Nano's don't have hard drives, they use flash memory, so trying to unstick it is a complete non-starter. --Tango (talk) 11:30, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

So your warranty is expired then? —Akrabbim^talk 12:23, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

It is if you banged it on a hard surface. DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:43, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

iPod Nanos have a small swittch on the top that can be flicked to lock the ipod on the current screen, and can be activated by dropping. If a padlock icon is displayed at the top of the screen (Next to the battery bar) this is your problem. Library Seraph (talk) 13:57, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Try to lock and unlock it, then hold down two of the buttons at the same time, then lock and unlock it again and hey presto! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.58.82 (talk) 16:33, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

National Socialism

In the above mentioned article they state that there were 25 points, a)these should be in the article. and c) what were they pls —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.58.82 (talk) 19:18, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

They have an article of their own - see National Socialist Program 83.100.250.79 (talk) 19:42, 10 August 2009 (UTC)