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August 20

Learning IPA

In a thread up above one editor asked another "Can you give the IPA?" At times I would love to, but I have no idea where to start.

Is there an Idiot's Guide to IPA, or equivalent?

I speak Australian (we call it English), if that is of any relevance. HiLo48 (talk) 01:01, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

This is explained in Australian English phonology. The symbols used for the sounds are IPA. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 01:09, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

If you want to read a book, Anthony Burgess's A Mouthful of Air is a good introduction.

This page is comprehensive, if not a little cluttered: International Phonetic Alphabet chart for English dialects. If you want to use the characters click on Special Characters at the top of the edit box when you post.

HiLo, do you know any foreign languages? Equivalents can be given. μηδείς (talk) 01:12, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

I'd hardly say I speak them, but I am familiar with pronunciation in French and Indonesian. I'm guessing that, having more consistent pronunciation, they may be more useful than English in learning IPA. HiLo48 (talk) 01:17, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, being able to compare the French vowels to their symbols in IPA will help make it clear when the English is confusing. For some reason the Indonesian language article is very poor--but you can also look at the phonology section of the Malay article. μηδείς (talk) 01:27, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Any introductory linguistics textbook will have an introduction to the IPA. I'm sure there are lots of online resources as well. rʨanaɢ (talk) 01:40, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

New message: You can test your knowledge of IPA with these pages.

• Famous first lines: an IPA quiz
• Can you name the words given their IPA pronunciation? | Online Games & Trivia by Sporcle

—Wavelength (talk) 01:51, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Wavelength's quiz is a close phonetic one rather than a phonemic one. That may be a bit too technical to begin with.

• Here is free online course material from Macquarie, particularly focused on Australian http://clas.mq.edu.au/phonetics/index.html.
• Here is a section on vowels in the IPA http://clas.mq.edu.au/phonetics/transcription/ipa/ipa_vowel.html.
• Here is a list of IPA transcriptions of Australian vowels, with the older 1946 list being much closer to British Received Pronunciation http://clas.mq.edu.au/phonetics/phonetics/ausenglish/index.html. μηδείς (talk) 01:54, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Wow, what a response! Thanks everyone. HiLo48 (talk) 07:00, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Can't you just look up the IPA characters that you don't know? --Belchman (talk) 20:25, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

I asked this exact question about a year ago, I'm Australian too, you got a MUCH better answer. :) I still haven't done much about it. Vespine (talk) 05:59, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

The English consonants don't really vary except that some dialects retain the /x/ of loch. They are easy to learn. Then learn the short vowels, father, amar /a/, best el /ɛ/, sin ficken /ɪ/, cost homme вот /ɔ/, put Putsch /ʊ/ and cup /ʌ/. Then worry about the diphthongs and the difficult long English vowels. Keep in mind both the difference between dialects and between a phonemic (broad) and a phonetic (narrow) transcription. When in doubt, always refer to a foreign language with which you are familiar. Write out a chart of equivalents to your dialect. And practice. μηδείς (talk) 06:21, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Russian (actually Komi) place-name

Does anyone know the etymology of the geographical name Vorkuta? I've read somewhere that in the Komi dialect it means "gathering-place of the dead" -- is that correct? (IMHO the name itself does have a slightly sinister sound to it -- even without considering the place's sordid history -- so I think this is pretty likely.) If this is the case, then what connection (if any) might the location have to hell in Komi/Finnish mythology? (See also a related question titled "What the hell?.." on the Humanities desk.) 67.169.177.176 (talk) 03:05, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

The Russian article says that the Komi spelling is Vörkuta, but that the word originates in Nenets meaning "place with many bears". This may be a case of folk etymology, with an older name being reanalysed according to the language of the new inhabitants. μηδείς (talk) 03:38, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

The airport

Several times in various articles I have come across "the Something Airport" which, to me, looks odd and I usually change to "Something Airport". I was curious though in what English variation would "the Something Airport" be common/correct? CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 04:14, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

It depends on the context. If you are referring to a place as a proper noun (i.e., treating something like "Beijing Airport" as a name), "the" is not needed. If you are, on the other hand, referring to it a descriptively (i.e., treating "Beijing airport" as a phrase meaning "the airport in Beijing"), "the" is needed. rʨanaɢ (talk) 04:24, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

I see that kind of thing sometimes in articles too, and not only in references to airports. I think a fair amount of English Wikipedia content is contributed by non-native English speakers who may not have a command of English articles. Marco polo (talk) 13:24, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

I should have given an example so here is one from yesterday. By the way I have seen this in airports in English speaking countries as well. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 16:02, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Listen to Rjanag.

I did read the example.

First of all, "Ass of 2008" doesn't sound right ...

In the first example, I would allow both "The Grantley Adams International Airport, as it is known today, handles most large aircraft including Boeing 747s." and "Grantley Adams International Airport, as it is known today, handles most large aircraft including Boeing 747s." In the first case, it's the airport that handles large aircraft, in the second, Grantley Adams does. The "as it is known today" makes a big difference.

In the second example, it must definitely say "Since Grantley Adams International Airport had become a relatively busy airport ..."BsBsBs (talk) 18:49, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

In Nebraska, where I'm originally from, it is very common for people to talk about "the Omaha airport" when they mean the airport in Omaha. But you'd never hear anyone say just "Omaha Airport," because that's not its name—its name is Eppley Airfield. In this case the distinction is between a descriptive phrase and a proper name. —Bkell (talk) 18:53, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

… So what Rjanag said. —Bkell (talk) 18:53, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks to all who replied I'll keep it in mind. As for the Ass of 2008 it may not sound right but if I had remembered to add my picture you might have felt a bit differently. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 23:21, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

"You are a little tiger, aren't you"

At 5:40 Simon Cowell says, "Susan, you are a little tiger, aren't you". What does that mean and how could it be translated into other languages? I found a video with Bulgarian captions, but the translator appears not to have known this either, as he/she has skipped that part. --Theurgist (talk) 04:55, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

It could mean many things, so I'd just translate it literally. StuRat (talk) 05:06, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't think so. Imagine a frenchman saying "you are a little cabbage". Would you translate that literally to English? Kittybrewster ☎ 21:10, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Just for clarity here, Kittybrewster is refering to the common french term of endearment "Mon petit chou" which is sometimes mistranslated as "my little cabbage" (chou is the french word for cabbage) but actually refers to Choux pastry, or "Pâte à choux", a sweet confection. The best translation would be "My little sweetie" or some similar, NOT my little cabbage; that's a sort of mistranslation, though common. The choux pastry has it etymological roots in the word for cabbage, but the usage as a term of endearment comes not directly from cabbage, but from the desert instead. --Jayron32 05:58, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, and in that case, the (correct) literal translation works fine. I'd think comparing a woman to a sweet confection would have a similar interpretation in just about any language. StuRat (talk) 07:21, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Isn't there enough context to whittle down the many things to a short list of a few? If they were speaking Bulgarian instead of English, uttering this phrase literally would have been a nonsensical and foolish thing to do, at the very best. --Theurgist (talk) 05:18, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Are you sure about that ? I would expect that such a general expression (referring to a woman as a small feline) would have similar meanings in many languages. In English, if you made it "lioness", "jaguar", or "leopard", would it change the meaning ? I don't think so. This is a clue that it's not a very specific expression. StuRat (talk) 06:32, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

These kind of phrases are more difficult to translate due to culture rather than language. The best option in this case is to make a literal translation. If you are going to write it down in an article, then perhaps you should also give a little context of the situation in order to better understand the phrase. If you're just translating the phrase as part of a video, then just include the literal translation (the viewer should get the picture if they've seen the whole thing up to that point). Best regards.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 06:44, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

@StuRat: Now that you mention it, "tigress" and "lioness" (but not usually "little tigress/lioness", and not usually "female jaguar/leopard") indeed imply a meaning in Bulgarian, but this meaning is something very closely approximating to "sex machine" - a grossly improper thing for a TV show jury member to say to a contestant. Literal translation won't do. --Theurgist (talk) 08:33, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

"Little tiger" also implies a certain sexual meaning in English. Comparing people to animals often has this minor issue. For example, calling someone a "rhinoceros" might imply the person being strong and heavily protected (a compliment); however, it can also mean the person being extremely obese (an insult). Added that Simon is known for not saying the most "TV appropiate" things to contestants (or people by that matter). The solution here is to provide a full context of why this phrase is being used, hence allowing the reader to decide on their own the meaning of Simon's statement.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 14:52, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Having watched the video (and being a native English speaker), I think Cowell was referring to Susan Boyle's feisty nature. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 09:08, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

It may also be an allusion to the line "But the tigers come at night with their voices soft as thunder" in the song she sang (2:46 in the video). Pais (talk) 12:54, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

A bit too subtle, I think. :-) — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 19:59, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

I would have to say that I don't think it is coincidental that "tiger" is mentioned in the lyrics of the song that Susan Boyle sang and it is a "tiger" that is referenced in that question. Simon Cowell is I think creating a link back to her performance. It is a way of saying that "your words still reverberate within me." It is in this way a compliment. Bus stop (talk) 21:00, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm with JackLee here; it's a gameshow for proles, not a poetry recital. Alansplodge (talk) 16:22, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

What Kansan college offers online Japanese courses?

Yes, I tried Google, but it gives me a hard time finding one.

To meet requirements for SRS college tuition assistance, I need to find an online section for Japanese IV that is offered from any college/university in the state of Kansas. As SRS is a state assistance organization, I don't think they'll pay for an online course that originates from out-of-state.

Hopefully anyone of yo uis a better searcher, so please report back. Thanks. --70.179.163.168 (talk) 13:31, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure there are any. There are not even that many schools in Kansas that offer classroom Japanese IV, much less online... rʨanaɢ (talk) 14:49, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

● You can try the following resources.

• University of Kansas Libraries at University of Kansas, Lawrence, KS
  • Ask a Librarian - KU Libraries

• Kansas State University Libraries at Kansas State University, Manhattan, KS
  • K-State Libraries - Services - Ask a Librarian

• Wichita State University Libraries at Wichita State University, Wichita, KS
  • WSU Libraries-Ask! a librarian

—Wavelength (talk) 17:37, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

University library pages are not really going to help someone find course listings. For what it's worth, I know for a fact that University of Kansas doesn't have online Japanese courses. rʨanaɢ (talk) 03:17, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

You can also try these resources.

• College & University Search Engines.
• EducationUSA - Search for Colleges and Universities

—Wavelength (talk) 06:27, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Meaning of "Koyaanisqatsi"

So we all know that Koyaanisqatsi is purported to be a Hopi word meaning "Life out of balance" or one of the other several meanings that the filmmakers put on the title card at the end of the film, but it has occurred to me that I haven't ever seen this independently verified. All the definitions I have seen on the Web just echo what the filmmakers claim it means.

Has anyone independently verified (a) that "Koyaanisqatsi" is a word; (b) its meaning, and (c) that it's spelled correctly? Comet Tuttle (talk) 16:04, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Koyaanisqatsi#Meaning cites the Hopi Dictionary, which seems to be a reliable source, as listing koyaanis- "chaotic" and qatsi "life". Pais (talk) 17:45, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

So a rough translation would be "All jacked up"?  :-) 67.169.177.176 (talk) 19:13, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

A "rough translation" can't really be given except by someone who knows more about Hopi word-formation. koyaanis- and qatsi may mean "chaotic" and "life" respectively, but that doesn't necessarily mean that koyaanisqatsi means "life out of balance" or even "chaotic life" in native, natural-sounding Hopi. As yet we just have to take it on the director's word. Cevlakohn (talk) 02:45, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Lists of words with ʊ and ʌ

I'd like to compile a list of all English words (or better yet, only the common words, or only the short words) containing /ʊ/ (as in foot) or /ʌ/ (as in strut). How can I do this - is there a way to get this information out of Wiktionary, for instance? I tried searching for ʊ, but that only returns the pages on which it appears in isolation.  Card Zero  (talk) 20:00, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

I can tell you one thing, this will be a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG task to accomplish... 67.169.177.176 (talk) 20:28, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Not really, if you attack it systematically, and only with single syllable roots. For instance, /bʌC(C)/ in GenAm: bub, buck, bud, budge, buff, bug, bulk, bum, bump, bun, bung, bunk, bunt, bus, bust, but, butt, Butz, buzz. Keep in mind also that not all dialects undergo foot-strut split. μηδείς (talk) 20:50, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

What about the words that contain those sounds in the last syllable, such as "halibut"? 67.169.177.176 (talk) 22:17, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

The OP said short wirds. And, FYI, halibut as spoken (['hælɨbɨt] or ['hælɨbət]) doesn't actually contain either sound.

Google search for {phonetic word search} threw up http://www.benbriedis.com/phonetic/search.php . I have never used it, and have no idea how good it is, but it might be worth a poke. 86.179.1.163 (talk) 20:52, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

At Wiktionary, you can start with wikt:Rhymes:English:Stressed on /ʊ/ and wikt:Rhymes:English:Stressed on /ʌ/ and the pages linked to from them. Pais (talk) 21:02, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Nice links, thank you both. (The phonetic word search tool seems to work very well!)  Card Zero  (talk) 10:39, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

August 21

'Scale out-ability'

Just as the verb 'scale' can be changed to the noun 'scalability', with a sense of 'potential', what about the phrase scale out? Can anyone think of a concise and succinct way to say this in natural English? --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 06:26, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Extendibility? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.64 (talk) 06:58, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

That's a nice one - I didn't think of that. I was thinking of 'horizontal scalability'. For the record, I have already settled for simply 'scalability' and delivered the project, as it would be understood from context whether the author meant 'up' or 'out'. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 07:08, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Question: (what can replace "with" in this sentence?)

How to express "Does not access Google search on startup for users with Google as default search" if do not use "with"? This sentence is too difficult to understand(-ing?) for me. Thank you!--124.119.134.85 (talk) 10:06, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

-"Does not access Google search on startup for users who have Google as default search"? Is this better? --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 11:15, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

"for for users having Google as", or "for for users employing Google as". Although for me, the bigger problem is in the last three words. What are you trying to convey there? "Does not access Google search on startup for users employing Google as their default search provider"? --Tagishsimon (talk) 20:35, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

"using" ? For me the problem with this sentence is having it start with "Does", making it seem like a question. Perhaps it should say "The computer does..." or something like that. "Also, the end "Google as default search" might need to be expanded to "Google as the default search engine" StuRat (talk) 20:39, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Well, I did assume the OP had purposefully dropped the subject, though that it not necessarily so (c.f. on a packet of nuts: 'Contains nuts' - no subject needed). The phrase is obviously taken from a bug/error report or some such, where the context would make it perfectly clear. Also, I kept the answer simple, as the OP is obviously not a native speaker of English, hence the question, and the self-correction. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 23:26, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

The Most incomprehensible English Dialect

What is the most difficult, incomprehensible English dialect in the world? 174.114.236.41 (talk) 19:37, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Incomprehensible to whom? --Jayron32 19:39, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

All English dialects are highly comprehensible to the people that use them. Falconus^{p t c} 19:44, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Which English dialect is the most incomprehensible to Standard English speakers? 174.114.236.41 (talk) 20:13, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

My native dialect is not particularly difficult to understand, but I can make it incomprehensible to outsiders by choosing words that are uncommon in standard English, and by using older pronunciations. The same is true of most dialects, but the degree of incomprehensibility reduces with exposure to the dialect. The answer will be vary with location and between individuals, but of the accents within a hundred miles of my home, I find Glaswegian the most difficult to follow -- often more difficult for me to understand than accents from the other side of the world. I'm sure there are some obscure dialects of English that are even harder for the average speaker of English to comprehend. Dbfirs 20:17, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Of the 'native' English dialects spoken in England itself, Geordie is probably the hardest to understand for those not acquainted with it (it is probably closer to Scots). AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:22, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Cockney rhyming slang is rather opaque to most English speakers. StuRat (talk) 20:34, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Nah, that's cobblers, Cockney rabbit is easy - take a butchers at the article. ;-) AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:16, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Geordie and Scots English diverged from what evolved into Received Pronunciation and General American a long time ago. Cockney and urban Black American English have been purposefully modified to confound outsiders. This clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aa5XLny8Wmc is particularly informative. μηδείς (talk) 20:45, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

In the U.S., the only time I've encountered a fellow American whose accent I couldn't understand, he was from northeast Maryland (somewhere near Havre de Grace, I think). Pais (talk) 21:22, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

The hardest by far to understand was spoken by only one person, Stanley Unwin (comedian). Check out some of the mp3s on his official site. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 23:10, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

I am a speaker of something close to General American, the "standard" American accent. The most incomprehensible dialects to me are Ulster Irish and many of the Scots varieties, including Glaswegian. Almost as incomprehensible to me is the Southern Appalachian dialect of eastern Tennessee, which is in turn apparently derived from an Ulster Scots dialect. I have a much easier time understanding even a working-class Londoner or Australian with a heavy accent than a working-class person from eastern Tennessee. Marco polo (talk) 23:25, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

(ec)I can't agree with that. Unwinese was extremely comprehensible in context (by design, I suspect, as Unwin was a very clever man with his use of language, which he used with deep joy). For example there's no such word in standard English as "fallolloped", but on being informed that someone had "fallolloped over" the meaning is obvious (and rather richer than simply "fallen"). On the other hand my uncle from Gateshead used to tell the story of his time in the then Malaya doing National Service. With a weekend pass one night he said to the assembled barrack hut "Howway wi' we te toon" and only one other man stood up (Howway is Geordie for "come on", "wi we" for "with us" and "te toon" means "to [the] town"). The original poster's question is about as meaningful as "how big is a horse?" I was born a Geordie though I've lost the accent. I speak "Standard English" but would find many British accents, from Geordie, Pitmatic, Glasgow, Ulster, Devon and many more difficult to comprehend, and that's without going beyond the UK. Perhaps the OP might like to read Accent (linguistics) and the pages linked to it. Tonywalton ^Talk

A friend from high school had a Mother from Edinburgh and a father from Glasgow. She was a pleasure to listen to and he was incomprehensible. Funniest thing was seeing them portrayed to a tee as Mike Myer's parents in So I Married an Axe Murderer. (Mike's "father" was more scrutable than my friend's though.) Blew our minds. As for incomprehensible Americans again, try certain urban dialects and Rosie Perez before she took diction lessons. And worst accent of all time was a guy I met at Cornell with a very thick accent. I asked him where he was from, he said. Bayonne. I said, oh, France? He said no, Bayonne, NJ. μηδείς (talk) 01:34, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm a GA speaker, and the only English speakers I've been completely unable to understand are a Welshman and a Newfoundlander. That said, on my first trip to London, I was completely unable to understand what the locals were saying to each other or the words on a TV comedy program, not because I didn't know the vocabulary but because I couldn't make out the words themselves. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:22, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

If you've seen Snatch, you'd know it's Pikey. ;). Vespine (talk)

I find some of the mumbling teenagers in my own country, Australia, sometimes the most difficult to understand. The other night on TV there was an episode of the local version of The World's Strictest Parents, showing a young Australian girl staying with a Swedish family. The Swedes were easy to understand, but I wish they had used subtitles for the Australian girl. HiLo48 (talk) 08:07, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

I can't understand Scottish accents most of the time either. Ulster Irish is pretty hard sometimes...my wife has relatives in Belfast, and the older generations are pretty easy to understand, but her cousins who are our age or younger are very difficult to understand. I think maybe they just speak more lazily...I mean, I mumble a lot so people can't understand me either, and sometimes that is mistaken for a peculiar accent. Both my wife and I have relatives from Newfoundland, so that accent is easy to understand, if they are just speaking normally with an accent. If they start using particular Newfoundland words and phrases then I have no idea what they're saying. Adam Bishop (talk) 08:20, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

There are a lot of patois, pidgins, and creoles that are derived largely from English, making it hard to say if they are dialects of English or independent lanugages; e.g. Jamaican patois, in which many of the common words (pronouns, forms of "to be", etc) are very different from standard British or American English. The problem with answering this question is that there's no clear division between a dialect and a separate language. --Colapeninsula (talk) 11:21, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

August 22

Translation of French paragraph

Can someone please translate the second paragraph of Page 86 from this book? I just need the text from "La famile royale" to "la cour". I would write this all out but some of the accent marks are really hard to write. Google translating it makes for a difficult read. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 06:20, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

"Aside from the king and queen, the royal family consisted of Kekuanaoa, the king's father, Prince Lot Kamehameha, his brother, and Princess Victoria, his sister, about 20 years old. Victoria was one of the richest landowners in the archipelago. Her great fortune and her rank condemned her to a life of celibacy which was a burden to her. Among her brother's aides-de-camp there was a young Englishman, a handsome cavalier, whose service and friendship with the king gave him free access to the palace. He was married. One day, following a dinner which went a bit late where there had been drinks in abundance, the aide-de-camp went up to the the princess and acted so boldly that that she called for help. The king and his brother immediately had the man arrested and condemned him to be banished under penalty of death. The foreigners, and especially the English, protested in vain against this summary sentence, and threatened to free the man; the king was insistent, and Mr. M..., placed on board a steamship by force, was transported to California. From there, some years later, thanks to the pleas of his wife, he was allowed to return to the islands, but was not able to return to the court." Adam Bishop (talk) 07:57, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

VCR & DVD commands in Spanish?

Where could I find commonly used Spanish words for DVD and VCR controls? I'm looking for such words like "Play All", "Stop", "Fast Forward", "Rewind", "Chapter", "Pause", "Record", "Skip", etc. Online translators are pretty bad at one word translation because there is no context. Google Translate wants to convert "play" into "juego", which I know is the wrong type of play. --24.249.59.89 (talk) 17:33, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

I googled panasonic vcr manual spanish and one of the first hits is this VCR manual which includes both English and Spanish versions, so you can compare. It refers to the buttons as PLAY, FF, REW, etc., because that's how the VCR buttons are labeled; but you may be able to use the context of the instructions to get what you need. Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:51, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

After changing my Windows' language settings to American Spanish and its region to Spain, I opened a movie in VLC Media Player and checked:

Play= Reproducir

Pause= Pausar reproducción

Stop= Detener reproducción

Fast Forward= Más rápido

Rewind= Más lento

I would assume "Play all" would be "Reproducir todo," Chapter to be "Capítulo," record to be "Grabar," and skip to be "Saltar," though those are all just assumptions; although I've studied Spanish for 4 1/2 years, it's not my native language and there are still a myriad of idioms unknown to me. Hope this helps!

I think it's worth noting too that in Spanish it's not uncommon to find expressions that seem to be "clarified", like in the case of "Pausar Reproducción" (As opposed to just "Pausar.") Bossadai (talk) 19:01, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

"Más lento" seems to be a particularly poor translation for "rewind"—it means "slower", which is not at all what "rewind" means. —Bkell (talk) 16:43, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Rewind translates into my dialect of Spanish (Spain) as "rebobinar". --Belchman (talk) 17:40, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Schnuffel/Schnüffler

The article Schnuffel says that the character's name means something like "snuggle" in English. The name is very similar to the German word "Schnüffler", meaning detective, snoop, noser-around. Are these words in any way related to each other? JIP | Talk 19:35, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Nein. Not at all. If you do a Google search in German Google you find a lot of cuddly animals. A "Schnuffel" (god only knows where it comes from) is a term of endearment. If my German girlfriend Brigitte calls me a "Schnuffel," then I say "ah" and cuddle her a little more. If she calls me a "Schnüffler," then she complains that I had read her emails, went through old love letters from her ex, sniffed glue, or her underpants. The primary meaning of "schnüffeln" is to sniff, and a "Schnüffler" is primarily a sniffer, which only later turned into a detective, snoop etc. If I would have to find an English equivalent of "Schnuffel," I'd use "snookums". Has nothing to do with ... BsBsBs (talk) 20:10, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Note that it in some Alemannic dialects "Schnuffel" (without Umlaut) can mean an animal's muzzle or snout too (and it can apply to a person's mouth as well :-). Of course this is again related to sniffing and sniffling and snuffling. Dialect examples: Alsatian (Parlons alsacien, Jean-Paul Schimpf, Robert Muller, Editions L'Harmattan, 1998, p. 202) and Swabian (Schwäbisches Handwörterbuch, Hermann Fischer, Hermann Taigel, Mohr Siebeck, 1999, p. 579). ---Sluzzelin talk 05:41, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Adelung, 1808 edition lists the verbs "schnuffeln" and "schnüffeln" (en: nuzzle, sniff, sniffle, snoop, snuffle) as synonymous and colloquial. A mid 19th century dictionary reports that "schnüffeln" was at the time becoming standard usage. Today "schnüffeln" is standard and "schnuffeln" is used in southwestern and western dialects. The standard verb yields the noun "Schnüffler" (negative connotation, en: sleuth), whereas the dialect form yields a noun "Schnuffel" (nose, snout) and a colloquial name "Schnuffel" (affectionate term, pet name for dogs, rabbits, teddy bears). --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 11:39, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Too much trust in 200 year old dictionaries can become painful: Call your girlfriend a "Schnüffler" instead of a "Schnuffel" and she might slap you. I'd treat German dialects with even greater caution. For instance, a "Fotzn" in Bavarian is a mouth, further up north, it becomes a derogatory term for the primary female genital. Common cause of misunderstandings and occasional fistfights, even amongst native Germans.BsBsBs (talk) 14:23, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

True perhaps, but JIP was asking about a possible etymological connection between the fictional character and the German word "Schnüffler", not whether the two words were interchangeable. We merely maintain that an etymological connection cannot be excluded, prima facie. (Nobody is suggesting you call your girlfriend Brigitte a Schnüffler :-) ---Sluzzelin talk 14:35, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Well, now that we are not joking anymore: Jakob Heinrich Kaltschmidt's "Kurzgefasstes vollständiges stamm- und sinnverwandtschaftliches Gesammt-Wörterbuch der Deutschen Sprache" of 1834 says "die Schnuff" is closer to the aforementioned Fotze (Bavarian Version); "die Schnoff, Schnüff, Schnuffe, Riff, die Schnauze, Nase, Schnabel, Spitze" - it is more related to "Schnauze", colloquial for "mouth" or "snout" than to the nose. If someone says "ich geb dir eins auf die Schuff" then he threatens to kick my teeth in, not to bang my nose up. When someone die "Schnuff" voll hat von uns, then the has "die Schnauze voll" i.e. he has it up to here. If someone is worried "dass Du nur auf die Schnuff bekommst" then he's afraid you'd be beaten up, that you "bekommst was auf die Schnauze" und nicht "die Nase." It's complicated: "Schnäuzen" means to blow your nose. A "Schnauzer" or "Schnäuzer" is a mustache. But a "Schnauze" is the next one down, the mouth. According to Kaltschmidt, that's where it comes from.BsBsBs (talk) 19:36, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

"Schnauze" comes from Middle Low German "snute" (cf. Pfeifer, Etymolog. Wörterbuch des Deutschen, p. 1228 and Grimm). "schnüffeln" (older form "beschnuffeln") comes from the Middle Low German/Middle Dutch verb "snûven" (i. e. "schnauben" in modern High German), cf. Pfeifer, p. 1233 and Grimm.

Schnuffel and Schnüffler seem to be related to each other: there was a form without umlaut, but now it is rather uncommon (cf. Grimm: "die unumgelautete form des wortes begegnet häufig bei Göthe, ist aber in neuerer zeit nicht mehr schriftgemäsz."), cf. "Schnuffler" or this entry.--91.12.221.199 (talk) 21:18, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Eggs, microwaves and vegetables

Is there a name (possibly veggie custard) for a meal made from beaten whole eggs and one can of mixed vegetables and perhaps a variety of seasonings that have been microwaved until the egg in no longer liquid? --DeeperQA (talk) 20:33, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

If you don't stir it, you are likely to get some of the egg turning to rubber before the rest turns solid. If you do stir it (between bouts of microwaving), you basically have scrambled eggs with vegetables. Looie496 (talk) 20:49, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

A frittata or lazy version of Spanish omelette (if you add potatoes)? Although being fried is a pretty characteristic quality of those. A pastryless quiche? 86.163.214.39 (talk) 20:59, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

I would call the resulting dish a "scramble", which is usually the term for scrambled eggs with a bunch of stuff mixed in. A stovetop version may be Egg bhurji, perhaps what the OP has made is microwaved bhurji. --Jayron32 02:43, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

This dish is stirred at one minute intervals after microwaving on high after all ingredients are mixed before microwaving and specifically does not involve oil or frying so frittata and Spanish omelette are close except for the oil and frying. Pastryless quiche and microwave scramble or microwave egg bhurji very much describe what it is. What I'm still looking for a nick name I suppose is rather than an acronym like EMV perhaps. --DeeperQA (talk) 06:49, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

It kinda reminds me of an Arab dish called eggah. --TammyMoet (talk) 08:43, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

(ec) Pastryless quiche reminds me of the breadless sandwich. Or the foodless meal. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 08:45, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

See List of egg dishes. Oda Mari (talk) 10:05, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

August 23

If wishes were horses ...

My Mom use to always say "If wishes were horses, beggers would ride" to my sisters & I whenever we said "I wish" ......Could you tell me where it originated from? Thank you, (email redacted) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.231.30.201 (talk) 15:21, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

We actually have an article about that saying, just click If wishes were horses, beggars would ride. --LarryMac | Talk 15:33, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

IPA pronunciation

Is there a WikiProject or list of users who specialize in adding IPA pronunciations to articles on request? I know a few articles that could probably benefit from it, as they have non-intuitive pronunciations, but I don't really understand IPA well enough to add them myself. Acdixon ^{(talk • contribs • count)} 15:22, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

See Category:User ipa.

—Wavelength (talk) 16:05, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

And WP:WikiProject Phonetics. Pais (talk) 16:38, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Great! Thanks to you both. Acdixon ^{(talk • contribs • count)} 17:19, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Standard form

"Fails to keep updating employees about current information on deposit rates, company’s financial performance"
Is it correct ?--180.234.99.66 (talk) 15:40, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

It isn't awful, but "fails to keep updating" is awkward and ambiguous. I suggest, "fails to regularly update employees with current information on deposit rates and company's financial performance".

Do you mean "the company's financial performance"? Or "companies' financial performance" (more than one company)? If you are referring to just one company, I would insert "the". Also, I think that splitting the infinitive, in this case, is a bit awkward, so I would suggest the following:

"Fails to update employees regularly with current information on deposit rates and the company's financial performance" (or "...and companies' financial performance") Marco polo (talk) 16:23, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, "fails to update employees regularly" is exactly what I thought before seeing that the others had said the same above. μηδείς (talk) 17:17, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Marco Polo, are you regarding "to keep updating" as a split infinitive? It's not. The infinitive is "to keep", and "updating" is an auxiliary verb. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 21:20, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

• • Thanks. But I have something to say about "regularly". Does that mean on regular basis?? I mean updating information and performance whenever company updates them. It can happen each after one month, two or three months?--180.234.73.48 (talk) 18:08, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

In that case, how about "Fails to keep employees up to date with current information..."? That should cover the meaning I think you intend. Marco polo (talk) 18:54, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

"Keep" updating implies "regularly". If he does it on occasion he can complain that he does indeed update them (when he feels like it), but not regularly. μηδείς (talk) 22:46, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Which would be why Marco Polo's version doesn't say "fails to keep updating employees with current information..." but "fails to keep employees up to date with current information...". The first version, besides being clumsy English, would have the problem that you say, which using 'regularly' would also have. Marco Polo's version does not have this problem, as it addresses the problem of the employees not being kept up to date, so that there is more recent information they have not been given. 86.164.63.251 (talk) 09:17, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

祖 and ワィ (Japanese)

Hi, I understand that the basic meaning of 祖 is "ancestor", but what is its significance in this picture?

I'm guessing that ワィ is just "Wi" for Wikipedia, even though the puzzle piece on the actual logo is ウィ. Does that seem right? The katakana article doesn't seem to give ワィ as an option for "wi" though. Should it? 86.179.1.77 (talk) 16:47, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

She has "grampa" in her hair? I suppose it could be moto or hazime, but it's odd.

I've never seen anyone write wi like that. — kwami (talk) 17:09, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

祖 and ワィ were the only Japanese(/Chinese) characters on the old puzzle-ball logo, hence their use on Wikipe-tan. ワィ was an accidental misspelling of ウィ. I don't know why 祖 was chosen—probably at random. It also seems to be incorrectly written, using the radical 衤 instead of 礻. Maybe that's where the missing stroke from ウィ went. -- BenRG (talk) 23:36, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Ben! I see that 袓 is actually a valid Chinese character, apparently meaning "good" or "beautiful" (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E8%A2%93). As far as I can tell, though, it is not used in Japanese, so perhaps the Wikipe-tan designer chose the "nearest" kanji. It seems surprising that ワィ wasn't corrected for Wikipe-tan, since as far as I can tell the designer was a native Japanese speaker. 86.179.3.58 (talk) 00:51, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

D-dropping

G-dropping has a long history in the English language, but d-dropping is relatively new, in my experience. Apparently as a result of young people spending more time at being entertained than at being educated, and the ability of a /d/ sound to disappear between an /s/ sound (or a /z/ sound or a /ʒ/ sound or a /ʃ/ sound) and a /t/ sound, I have been seeing the letter omitted from expressions like those listed below. This can happen when they include verbs in the past tense, but especially when they include past participles (as in is/are/was/were supposed to). Of the words which I have listed here, I found most at http://wordover.com/. It seems to me that some people actually do not know the correct spelling. Even when the past-tense verb or past participle is not followed directly by the word to, sometimes the d is dropped from a word that should have it.

• supposed to, forced to, advanced to, convinced to, announced to, enticed to, induced to, introduced to, sourced to, reduced to, increased to, decreased to, traced to, ceased to, dispensed to, dispersed to, asked to, passed to (See Note 1)
• used to ("was accustomed to; utilized to"), pleased to, advised to, authorized to (authorised to), disclosed to, exposed to, proposed to, opposed to, refused to, generalized to (generalised to), advertised to, paused to, poised to, espoused to, surprised to, televised to, closed to (see Note 2)
• changed to, charged to, enlarged to, acknowledged to, judged to, engaged to, divulged to, diverged to, emerged to, managed to, outraged to, pledged to, surged to, urged to
• attached to, dispatched to, hitched to, latched to, matched to, pitched to, preached to, reached to, stretched to, switched to, abashed to, banished to, crushed to, dashed to, demolished to, diminished to, embellished to, established to, leashed to, published to, vanished to, wished to

Note 1: The expression closed to ("shut to, unopened to; blockaded to") should not be confused with the expression close to ("near to").
Note 2: The expression passed to ("moved to", transitive or intransitive) should not be confused with the expression past to ("onward to").

This problem can occur also with /l/, /m/, /n/, and /r/: thrilled to, claimed to, inclined to, ordered to. I have not spent time in searching for more examples of these, but I am willing to do so on request.

Has d-dropping been especially popularized by any particular entertainer(s)?
—Wavelength (talk) 18:58, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

This is a case of positional assimilation or elision, not a general case of dropping regardless of position as is g-dropping. μηδείς (talk) 01:10, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Many of Wavelength's examples have never been pronounced with a /d/ in modern English. Following an unvoiced consonant, the suffix "-ed" is usually realised /t/, as in "announced", "enticed", "pitched", "reached", "banished", "wished", "passed".

It's common for older people to try and blame society's ills on rap music, but (as Medeis mentions) assimilation of voiced to voiceless sounds is common in many languages, from French to Japanese. --Colapeninsula (talk) 12:14, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, many of the examples involve the sound /t/, but, in writing, it is the letter <d> that is sometimes omitted. This could be from a lack of familiarity with correct spelling. It could be from a linguistic background (maybe Chinese) with a different way of expressing grammatical tense. Hispanophones who have difficulty in pronouncing a final /d/ or /t/ might contribute to misunderstanding in the minds of some people who hear them speak.

—Wavelength (talk) 18:10, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Spelling of “magick”

who changed the spelling of magick" with a k" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.127.140.95 (talk) 18:58, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

See Magick. Deor (talk) 20:07, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Noah Webster introduced the spelling reform of -ick > -ic in Latinate words, as with -our > -or and -re > -er. μηδείς (talk) 20:37, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Oh, so then he was probably born Noah Webstre? —Akrabbim^talk 01:34, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

"-ic" may have been adopted by Webster, but since it is worldwide it seems rather unlikely that it was he that introduced it: non-American Englishes have not usually been eager to adopt his innovations. --ColinFine (talk) 22:39, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

In the preface to his dictionary, Webster wrote, "Fortunately, most modern writers have rejected the k from words in which it is useless; and it is desirable that dictionaries should add their authority to the practice" (more at [1]). So it seems that other writers had made the step before him. Lesgles (talk) 04:43, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

August 24

"Bad" Arabic Translation

This video on Youtube is the song "I won't Say I'm in Love" from the movie Hercules, in Arabic. It's transliterated/translated in the video itself, but as you can see under "Uploader Comments," someone claims that the translation is "really bad!"

To get to the point, my actual question is, is the translation really bad? I understand that it might seem "wrong" for someone who speaks a different dialect of Arabic than the one in the video (Which I assume to be Egyptian, but could be wrong). In addition, if the translation is really that bad...would someone mind translating it? =] Bossadai (talk) 02:03, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

"Zum Eckel find' ich immer nur mich"

The sentence in the subject line appears in C. S. Lewis' book An Experiment in Criticism, in the chapter titled "How the few and the many use pictures and music".

The picture, so used, can call out of you only what is already there. You do not cross the frontier into that new region which the pictorial art as such has added to the world. Zum Eckel find' ich immer nur mich.

Lewis is quoting someone and he assumes his readers are educated and will recognize the quote. I don't. I tried it in Google, within quotes, and also with what I take to be the more up-to-date spelling, "Ekel". I found only passages quoted from Lewis' book! I also tried it without the contraction: "Zum Eckel finde ich immer nur mich", and "Zum Ekel finde ich immer nur mich". I can some additional hits, but they don't have the verbatim quote; rather they are pages with some of the same words.

Can anyone identify the source of that sentence? Michael Hardy (talk) 05:25, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I've found something, which seems possible if somewhat unlikely. The English translation of "Encounters with silence" by Karl Rahner uses the line "Again and again, I find only myself" - which is an almost exact translation, and since the book notes it's been translated, and Rahner was German, perhaps that's possible. It's from 1960, a year before An Experiment in Criticism. Maybe they're both quoting something else, I don't know. Whilst Rahner was a jesuit, he was also quite famous for his writings and Lewis was part of the Anglican church at the time and writing about religion. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 09:58, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I believe the quote originates from Die Walküre by Richard Wagner. The quote there goes "Zum Ekel find' ich ewig nur mich in allem, was ich erwirke!", which I believe is sufficiently close to Lewis' quote. Gabbe (talk) 10:03, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Quite possible, certainly pushes the time period back. Seems a little strange Lewis would misquote such a famous work, though, I don't know. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 10:09, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

But they mean essentially the same thing. Lewis was probably quoting from memory (back in the days before Google when people actually had to remember things!). Adam Bishop (talk) 10:39, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

In fact, that chapter by Lewis in which this quote appears mentions Arthur Rackham's illustrations of "The Ring" several times, so I'm pretty confident that is what Lewis is referring to. Gabbe (talk) 10:51, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Translate the quote as "It is only myself that always bores me". A modern German speaker misunderstands it, for the meaning of the word "Ekel" has changed. The language of the quote can be dated quite well: (1) "Eckel" (obsolete spelling, hence well before 1900). (2) In 1800 "Ekel" (recent spelling) meant tedium, disgust, after 1900 (approximate dates) exclusively disgust. In Lewis' quote it is tedium, must hence be before 1900. (3) Usage around 1800 "zum Eckel werden" (ad nauseam, becoming tedious), usage after 1950 "eklig finden" (find disgusting) hence well after 1800 and well before 1950. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 11:59, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

The full sentence in the Richard Wagner opera of 1870 is spoken by Wotan (reflecting his role as creator deity): "In everything that I create I find forever only myself, ad nauseam". Lewis quotes only the second half of it "I find forever only myself, ad nauseam". Here another translation With disgust I find only myself, every time, in everything I create. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 12:54, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks to all who replied.

"Disgust" is how I understood "Ekel"; it had not occurred to me that "boredom" would be among the senses. The forms in which I've seen it in print before include "ekelhaft" and "ekelig". At dict.leo.org when I enter "Ekel", I find: disgust, disrelish, distaste, execration, nauseation, revulsion.

C. S. Lewis has been credited with eidetic memory. Michael Hardy (talk) 15:17, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Then I presume he's paraphrasing rather than misquoting... Gabbe (talk) 10:54, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

German plural

Being a fan of Kraftwerk, I recently listened to "We are the robots" on Youtube. I actually listened to the German version. The lyrics go "Wir sind die Roboter". Now I know enough to know that this translates to "We are the Robots". But, with my limited knowledge of German, I thought that the line should be "Wir sind die Roboten". So I go along to Google translate and entered in "Wir sind die Roboter" and get "We are the Robots". But then I entered "Wir sind die Roboten" and got the same translation! What gives? If both endings are correct, how do I know which one to use? 121.45.168.224 (talk) 05:25, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Google Translate is being generous. Only Roboter is correct; there is no German word Roboten. Pais (talk) 06:03, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I have never heard or read "Roboten", and I am sure it's simply wrong. Roboter is both singular and plural. It's not clear to me what the plural would have been if "Robot" had been chosen for the singular. It could have been "Robote", "Robots" or indeed "Roboten". If the singular were "Robote", then the word would likely be female (Roboter is male) and the plural "Roboten". Hans Adler 11:36, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Das Robot, die Roböter :-) Pais (talk) 11:48, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

More seriously, "robot" and "roboter" both come from Czech "robot", which goes back to "robota", which roughly means "work" with the connotation of serfdom or feudal duty. In the German version of A Clockwork Orange, and from there in some forms of German youth slang, "roboten" is used as a verb for (unpleasant) work, as in the hit song Hier kommt Alex by Die Toten Hosen. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:02, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Stephan Schulz is correct in all regards.BsBsBs (talk) 17:42, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

The Czech word robot is surely related to the Russian rabota and rabotat' (work, n. and v.), and the German arbeit. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 20:48, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes indeed, and apparently also to Russian раб "slave" and ребёнок "child" and Greek ὀρφανός "orphan".[2] Lesgles (talk) 00:40, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Translation from Korean

Hey, I was wondering if someone could translate this into English. http://comic.naver.com/webtoon/detail.nhn?titleId=350217&weekday=tue 63.225.145.24 (talk) 07:47, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

The entire page ? That's quite a lot to ask. It starts with something like this:

2011 Miss reel fragment:

The Miss reel ghost story was provided by the authors. This summer it will send chills up your spine.

StuRat (talk) 09:02, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Who/Whom in clauses

When deciding on who/whom, are clauses treated as their own entities or are they tied to the verb in the main sentence? For example, Searching for the very souls / Whom already have been sold. I think of they/who and them/whom when trying to figure this out, so if the clause is independent, I would say They already have been sold, in which case I would use Who. On the other hand, the clause is attached to the very souls, which I think is the object of the sentence? In which case I would say Searching for them, and then use Whom. Just wondering which is correct, since in the real life example, Whom was used, but it sounds odd in my ear. — Bility (talk) 17:25, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

The case of who(m) depends on the relative clause itself, in this case "who have already been sold". The object of "search for" is "very souls", while "who" is the subject of "have been sold". "Whom" is wrong here; it may be a hypercorrection on the part of someone who doesn't know when to use "whom" and thinks it sounds more sophisticiated to just throw it in anywhere. Pais (talk) 17:41, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! I thought that was the case, but wanted to make sure. Cheers, — Bility (talk) 17:51, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Well, I recognize that as a line from a Bob Dylan song (I Dreamed I Saw St. Augustine), and when it comes to Dylan's use of language, all bets are off. He probably knew the rules but didn't care much about them. Looie496 (talk) 17:55, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Correct. In fact he does it twice just in that one song! — Bility (talk) 18:15, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

The following rule may help: "Who" may be followed by a verb (inc. auxiliary verbs like "be" and "have"), whereas "whom" must be followed by a noun (or a pronoun) Unless the whole sentence is interrogative, in which case an auxiliary verb must precede the noun.

Simple examples are: "who sees", but "whom he sees" (whereas the interrogative sentence should be: "whom does he see?", in accordance with the rule above).

Therefore, "whom have already been sold" - is both odd and incorrect. Where is the noun (or pronoun) after the whom?

Hope this helps.

HOOTmag (talk) 20:55, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

That's a good rule of thumb, but there are apparent exceptions: "I am the sort of person for whom editing Wikipedia would be the greatest torture imagineable". Admittedly, "editing" here is a verbal noun, but it still has the form of a verb. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 21:02, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

No exceptions. Just read my rule again, after adding the phrase "or a verbal noun" - before the phrase "or a pronoun"... :) HOOTmag (talk) 21:16, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

My rule of thumb is even simpler. "Who" belongs to the same class as "He" or "She". "Whom" belongs to the same class as "Him" or "Her". If you would use "he" to make a statement, use "who" to ask the question. If you would use "him" to make the statement, use "whom" to ask the question. "Who gave it to you?" "He gave it to you." "You got it from whom?" "You got it from him." --Jayron32 21:11, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

How about "The person whom he sees is me"...? HOOTmag (talk) 21:22, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Use "that" instead. No confusion about usage. --Jayron32 00:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm just saying that your rule does not work, as far as my sentence is concerned. HOOTmag (talk) 08:15, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Then there's what I call the "butler's whom", as in whom shall I say is calling?. I'm not quite sure what to make of that one. Is it just a mistake? Or is "say is calling" being treated as a phrasal verb with an object? --Trovatore (talk) 21:29, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

It's just a mistake, another hypercorrection. Usually it would be whom before shall I, as in Whom shall I ask?, and that pattern gets carried over to a different case. Pais (talk) 21:50, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, the "whom" in Trovatore's sentence is wrong. Just think about: "Who do you think is calling?" You can't answer: "I think, him is calling" (i.e. you can say that, but it's wrong...), so the interrogative sentence can't be: "Whom do you think is calling?" HOOTmag (talk) 22:04, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

You all might be interested in James Thurber's notes about who and whom (end of page), although I don't recommend that you take his advice seriously. Lesgles (talk) 00:26, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

anyways

The number of people who use "whom" and "who" wrongly is appalling. The problem is a difficult one and it is complicated by the importance of tone, or taste. Take the common expression, "Whom are you, anyways?" That is of course, strictly speaking, correct — and yet how formal, how stilted! The usage to be preferred in ordinary speech and writing is "Who are you, anyways?" "Whom" should be used in the nominative case only when a note of dignity or austerity is desired. For example, if a writer is dealing with a meeting of, say, the British Cabinet, it would be better to have the Premier greet a new arrival, such as an under-secretary, with a "Whom are you, anyways?" rather than a "Who are you, anyways?" — always granted that the Premier is sincerely unaware of the man's identity. To address a person one knows by a "Whom are you?" is a mark either of incredible lapse of memory or inexcusable arrogance. "How are you?" is a much kindlier salutation.

— James Thurber, Ladies' and Gentlemen's Guide to Modern English Usage

Is "post-traumatic shock disorder" actually a real term?

So once upon a time, I remember hearing the phrase "post-traumatic shock disorder." I got the impression that it was either the British or Australian term for post-traumatic stress disorder -- or possibly an early classification of the same condition, which was eventaully abandoned for the current formation. My Google/Wikipedia dives haven't produced anything. Can anyone verify this for me, or is my mind just playing tricks on me? Thanks. --Brasswatchman (talk) 17:43, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Google and Google Scholar for "post-traumatic shock syndrome" turns up some uses, which mostly appear to be synonymous with post-traumatic stress syndrome. (In fact, one even uses "PTSD" as the abbreviation for "post-traumatic shock syndrome".) rʨanaɢ (talk) 17:47, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Googling with the term in quotation marks yielded many results, some of which seem to use it as a valid term. --LarryMac | Talk 17:51, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

aha, shock syndrome, huh? My thanks to both of you. --Brasswatchman (talk) 02:43, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Heh, I never would have thought to search for "syndrome" if not for Google's auto-complete... rʨanaɢ (talk) 02:45, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Plurals of -y surnames

So, most -y nouns become -ies in the plural: country > countries, sentry > sentries, family > families ....

But -y surnames stay that way: "The Caseys and the Kellys are two well-known local families", not "The Casies and the Kellies ...". Why don't they change?

This doesn't seem to be covered @ English plural. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 21:51, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I think it has to do with preserving the integrity of the proper noun. The other example I've seen is "the two Germanys" (i.e., East and West). It's mentioned as an exception to the "ies rule" in English plural#Regular plurals. Lesgles (talk) 00:13, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Why is integrity an issue here but not with improper nouns? There's no such thing as a familie or a countrie, but we aren't fazed by families or countries. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 01:39, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

My thought was that the Harrys of the world, or the people of Germany, might be offended if their names are changed to meet the needs of English inflection, whereas no one really "owns" words like family or country. I admit it's a weak argument. Lesgles (talk) 04:26, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

◤Some surnames ending in y are French (for example, Thierry) or Hungarian (for example, Nagy).

—Wavelength (talk) 00:35, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

True, but I'm not sure what difference that makes when we don't change English surnames either. "The Berrys were eating berries". -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 01:39, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

What about the plural of money? I've seen both moneys and monies, and I can't bring myself to think that monies is a real word, but it's used often enough that I guess it's been added to the language. It just looks wrong to me. The Mark of the Beast (talk) 04:15, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

"Monies" is a perfectly cromulent word. See, for example, OALD, CALD or M-W. Gabbe (talk) 11:15, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

My surname is Fly, and despite the word "flies" no one referring to the extended family would write anything but Flys. Go figure! Pfly (talk) 04:57, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

"The Toronto Maple Leafs will resume play when the autumn leaves are falling." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:51, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

By spelling their plurals differently, we acknowledge the players are not actually leaves, and people named Berry are not actually edible fruit, and people named Fly are not actually annoying, disease-spreading pests (well, not all of them, anyway -:). That makes sense for the human names that are the same as non-human objects. But what about the Barrys, Kerrys, Terrys, Henrys, Sallys, Marys and Cathys of the world? There's nothing non-human to distinguish them from, and no need to have a separate pluralisation rule. But we do it anwyay. Whence did this rule arise? -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 03:58, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

:-) Pfly (talk) 12:37, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I think it's an issue of recoverability. The Barrys have to be distinguished from the Barries, the Marys from the Maries, the Cathys from the Cathies (some people do spell it Cathie), and so on. If you say "There are three Henries" in this room, Henry may object that he isn't a Henrie. Pais (talk) 08:22, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I think so too. It's easy to find examples of a pair of proper nouns ending -ie and -y that create ambiguity, but it would be difficult to find a pair of ordinary (improper?) nouns with the same potential to create ambiguity. "This circuit has an inductance of three henries" causes little confusion, because most of the audience can be expected to be acquainted with the henry in question and to be confident that there is no unit called the henrie. Even if a pair of -ie and -y homonyms, with different meanings, existed (I can't find one), context would almost certainly point to the right meaning. Personal names can't be relied on in this way, since there are so many of them and in many contexts one person will serve conceptually just as well as another. This doesn't explain what's wrong with writing "The two Germanies", except I suppose you gotta have a system.  Card Zero  (talk) 16:53, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I suspect that the question is backwards. It's more like, "Why is 'y' the singular of so many 'ies' plurals?" And I suspect the answer is in modifications of the Latin-via-French origin of many of those words. For example, library comes from Old French librarie[3] and the plural in both English and French would be libraries. Somehow, over time, words like librarie became library in English. Note that the old French province we call "Normandy" is spelled Normandie in French. If there were two of them, we would call them the two "Normandys" and the French would call them the two Normandies. The article on plurals states that proper nouns are pluralized "regularly", implying that the y-to-ies is an irregular (though obviously very common) form. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:59, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I have to refer you to the Lord of the Rings Bilbo's famous mistake, at Bilbo's 111th birthday party speech, he called his guests whose surname was Proudfoot "the Proudfoots" and was quickly corrected "Proudfeet!" Simply seems that they wanted their name to be declined and not retain it's root unchanged. Why? Go figure. --Lgriot (talk) 16:38, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I guess the same could apply to groups of people named Bowman (but not Archer) or Seaman (but not Sailor) or Palfreyman, Chapman, Goodman, Badman, Hoffman and lots of others. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 19:08, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

August 25

Did - didn't

1 "Didn't I tell you that yesterday?"

2 "Did not I tell you that yesterday?"

3 "Did I not tell you that yesterday?"

What is the grammatical rationale for the unbundled contraction to be proper when written as sentence 3 above but not sentence 2 above? DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 00:52, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

(3) is a result of English subject-auxiliary inversion. (2) used to be grammatical (I don't recall exactly when, 100 or 200 years ago), I assume because subject-auxiliary version once worked differently and let the negative be pied-piped with the auxiliary. (1) is, I assume, a leftover vestige of when (2) used to be grammatical; (2) stopped being used, but since (1) looks like there's only one word coming to the front of the sentence, we still accept it. rʨanaɢ (talk) 00:59, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

How do you pronounce Vančura

How do you pronounce the European name Vančura? (i.e. what is the č sound?) Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 01:41, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

It is Czech, and pronounced 'VAN-chu-ra' - the 'č' is like English 'ch'. The pronunciation in IPA is given for Vladislav Vančura in his article. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 02:13, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Resolved

Thanks (I don't know how to read IPA). Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 02:54, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

What is a qualifying question?

I used to think that's a question that puts the responder into a category (like: are you a good cook?). Is that right? If yes, why would someone consider them rude?Quest09 (talk) 13:19, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Maybe the context of the qualifying question was rude itself. There's lots of ways to be rude. It's impossible to say why without having more context. --Jayron32 13:26, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Some people don't want to be put in certain categories. Some direct questions are socially awkward, but not outright rude. 88.9.108.128 (talk) 13:30, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

File:Buyer's Questionaire.jpg

Buyer's Questionaire used by me in the 1980s to qualify a home buyer.

The expression "qualifying question" seems to be most commonly often as part of sales technique, where the salesman tries to find out things like how much the prospect is likely to be willing and able to spend, and who is responsible for the budget. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 16:01, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

You want to know whether someone is in a position to make a purchase, according to sites such as this. Bus stop (talk) 16:13, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Many a real estate salesperson have gone broke because they didn't ask qualifying questions before trying to sell a house. Qualifying questions are necessary in sales, especially for expensive items, and the idea is to use tactfulness when asking qualifying questions. Many times when selling expensive items (i.e. real estate) it is an accepted practice on the part of the salesman to ask the buyer qualifying questions (i.e. what are you looking for exactly, how much do you made, how much cash do you have for a down payment, how long have you been looking, have you been prequalified by a bank yet for a loan). I never found these type of questions to be rude by the potential buyer in my 20 year career as a real estate salesman. In fact, just the opposite. Then they knew I was a smart salesman that didn't want to waste my time or theirs. Then I could find just the property that suited them that they could actually purchase.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 21:59, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Posted is a Buyer's Questionaire I used in my real estate business in the 1980s to qualify the buyer to see if he was capable of purchasing a property. Those that sent back the form filled in I worked with, those that did NOT fill in the form I dropped. Then I was working with only qualified buyers capable of purchasing a property. Made it a lot easier to sell properties.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 11:55, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

And as a side-question: why do unqualified buyer (also, non-buyers) go around shopping? There not only wasting your time, but also theirs... Quest09 (talk) 19:57, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Chinese question about time

Does this short sentence seem correct?: "多长时间从你的房子到大学？" I'm meaning to ask: "How long does it take to get to college from your house?" What about this one?: "从Miami大学开车开了去你的家几个小时？" --Ghostexorcist (talk) 14:00, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Chinese is pretty flexible, but in these cases (particularly the second one) you would usually add 要 before the question word-- e.g. 从miami大学开车回家要几个小时? In my intuition, the first sentence sounds slightly acceptable without the 要 (at least in informal speech) because the time expression is moved to the front of the sentence in a sort of "comment-topic" format, which already gives it a more informal spoken feel; in "proper" language, though, this sentence would be more like 从你的房子到大学要多长时间? rʨanaɢ (talk) 14:22, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

(Also, it's not relevant to time particularly, but the other change I made in your first sentence was rewording the verb as 开车回家. The typical way of expressing that sort of thing in Mandarin is with a verb or verb phrase expressing manner, followed by another one expressing direction or class; thus e.g. "bike to the office" 骑车去办公室, "walk to class" 走路去上课. I also replaced 去你的家 with 回家 just because that's a more natural way of saying 'to go home' [which usually implies returning home]; this isn't a grammatical issue, though, just a stylistic one. rʨanaɢ (talk) 14:27, 25 August 2011 (UTC))

Thank you for the info. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 14:30, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Another small thing...I'd say 到学校 rather than 到大学, I think 学校 refers more to the physical location whereas 大学 refers more to the entity. rʨanaɢ (talk) 23:09, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I would use 从你的物资到大学要多久？ (instead of 几个小时) but I am quite out of practice. —Kusma (t·c) 21:16, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree 多久 sounds a bit more natural to me, although neither one is grammatically wrong. (I assume you meant 屋子 rather than 物资?) rʨanaɢ (talk) 23:11, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I did, sorry. —Kusma (t·c) 05:24, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Moral lessons

What word is used for expressing moral lessons mixed into a story line?--Doug Coldwell ^talk 21:40, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

My first thought was "parable", but I'm not sure if that's the part of speech that you want. Apparently there is also a verb "parabolise" [4], but I think it's pretty rare. 109.151.39.110 (talk) 22:14, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I have always heard and used the single word 'moral', as in "the moral of the story". Our article backs me up here. —Akrabbim^talk 22:21, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

On second thoughts, I don't think this question is really answerable without knowing which grammatical word function the OP requires. A word for, literally, "expressing moral lessons mixed into a story line" would have to be a word with a function like "parabolisation". We have "moralisation" and "moralising" of course, but to me these have different nuances from that required. 109.151.39.110 (talk) 22:47, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

August 26

Closest languages to English and French

Which other language is the closest to English? What about French? --75.10.48.39 (talk) 00:07, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

They are indeed languages with similar grammar and much shared vocabulary, but there are still lots of languages that are much more similar to English than French is. The first I can think of are English-based creoles (languages which evolved from pidgin English) like Tok Pisin, Singlish, and Norfuk (to see how similar the latter is to English, try reading [5]). There are also English "dialects" such as Geordie which, while not necessarily intelligible to speakers of Standard English, are still very similar; the line between dialect and language is often fuzzy (see our article Dialect#"Dialect" or "language"), meaning that these could also be considered "languages close to English". rʨanaɢ (talk) 00:23, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

(after edit conflict)English is a rather unique language because it's a Germanic language that has (for various reasons, mostly because of the Norman conquest) about 60% Romance vocabulary. The Scandinavian languages (Norwegian, Swedish, and Danish) essentially share the same grammar but are pronounced very differently. Northern variants of German (especially Plattdüütsch, but also the various Frisian dialects) also share basically the same grammar but have a pronounciation that is much closer to English. None of these languages have the pronounced Romance influence English has so they use mostly Germanic vocabulary, so in practice they sound very, very different from English.

French is also a bit of an odd man out: it's a Romance language and thus shares the same basic grammar features and vocabulary with Italian, Spanish and Portuguese, but while these three languages are so similar that they are almost mutually intelligible, French pronounciation and spelling have changed so much over the centuries that the language today sounds very unlike its closest relatives. -- Ferkelparade π 00:34, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

The closest major language to English (excluding ones that are arguably dialects of English) is probably Dutch. Anglophones can pick up a little Dutch just by listening to it. Supposedly linguists claim West Frisian is closer, but meaning offense to no one, I don't really count that as a major language. --Trovatore (talk) 00:36, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, Frisian. I note the ambiguity in the question about French. A good candidate for nearest language to French is Occitan; but the precise status and relations of the relevant languages and dialects are pretty arbitrary. As ever. Noetica^Tea? 01:40, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

OK, Frisian, but come on. Where will I ever read a novel, or even see a street sign, in Frisian? People want to know, among languages that I can study in school, that have a literature, that have an army if you like, which is the closest to English? I still say that's Dutch. Does anyone have another candidate? Maybe Danish? I've never tried to listen to Danish and see if I could pick up more or less than Dutch. --Trovatore (talk) 01:58, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I have seen East Frisian street signs on Sylt. I would be surprised if you couldn't find West Frisian street signs on some Dutch islands. And while it's not exactly a novel, there is a Frisian book with a contentious(!) Wikipedia page: Oera Linda Book. Hans Adler 09:04, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree Dutch is probably the closest "major" language. rʨanaɢ (talk) 02:02, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I too agree about Dutch; and we should not confuse genetic similarity with overall similarity brought about by other means: areal effects, other mutual contact, convergence due to common external pressures, and so on. Noetica^Tea? 02:28, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Dutch does seem to be rather close, even though it started as a German dialect not too long ago. (When German orthography became standardised in the 16th/17th century, they decided to have their own rather than follow it. They could easily have decided differently, in which case the Netherlands would probably be one of four major German-speaking countries today.) I think the fact that Dutch, like English, is strongly influenced by French also helps. But Afrikaans, although very close to Dutch, is even closer to English, at least in its orthography. Our article on the language has two stunning (but exceptional) examples: "My hand is in warm water." and "My pen was in my hand." are both Afrikaans(!) sentences meaning the same as the identical English sentences. Hans Adler 08:26, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Wow, that's very interesting; I did not know that. I had thought of Afrikaans as a fairly minor variation on Dutch, given a different name for political reasons. Looks like that's not so. --Trovatore (talk) 08:44, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I think the most dramatic differences are in spelling. When spoken by an Afrikaans speaker, the above sentences probably sound very similar to the corresponding Dutch sentences that are spelled differently. You can find samples of Afrikaans on YouTube, e.g. this. I think the language is almost exactly half-way between English and German. Hans Adler 08:51, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia has versions in three varieties of Frisian.

• West Frisian language at http://fy.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haadside
• Saterland Frisian language at http://stq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haudsiede
• North Frisian language at http://frr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoodsid

For comparison, here are versions in three other closely related languages.

• Dutch at http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoofdpagina
• West Flemish at http://vls.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voorblad
• Low Saxon at http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Hööftsiet

I invite readers to see how much they can understand in each version.

—Wavelength (talk) 03:04, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

If you're going to compare Wikipedias, I have to recommend that of our friends over at the Scots Wikipædia. I think all English-language Wikipedians of any standing should be obliged to read Dinna bite the newcomers at least once: it says much the same thing as our own version, but in a language that actually makes you think about the meaning of the words: "Mind Hanlon's Razor. Behavior that seems maleecious ti langtime Wikipaedians is mair likelie doun til iggerance o oor expectations an rules. E'en gin ye're 100% siccar that a bodie is a wirthless, orra, scum-soukin Internet trowe, vandal, or waur, conduct yersel gin they're no. Bi bein caum, interestit, an respeckfu, yer deignity is upliftit, an ye further oor project". Wise words, in any language (or dialect, for those that wish to pick nits)...

— Preceding unsigned comment added by AndyTheGrump (talk • contribs) 03:22, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

To clarify, I was asking two separate questions, one about English and one about French. --75.10.48.39 (talk) 02:46, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

For French then, the answer is likely Occitan as mentioned above; though nearly all Occitan speakers have a diglossia with standard French, the language in France has a status somewhat akin to Catalan in Spain (a language which is closely related to Occitan). The closest languages to French are categorized as Gallo-Romance languages, and Occitan is the most prominent of these. --Jayron32 04:19, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Sorry but no. The Occitan language has not a status akin to Catalan language. It is not an official language of France (contrary to Catalan in Spain), and people speak french in the south of France. The references in the article point that there is less than 1 million speakers in France, and it is magically transformed into Native speaker in the article. I'm a (bad) speaker of Gallo language, but it is not my native language. I think that one can say that apart from emigrants, all French have french has a native language.... 194.6.163.244 (talk) 06:49, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't have a reasonable official status, but it's still often considered as a language, and it's not totally extinct yet. The Franco-Provençal language (formerly spoken around Lyon, now still alive in Italy in the Aosta Valley) is another such example. If you want something more major, Catalan might do, as it is very close to Occitan. Hans Adler 08:45, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

The suggestion was of a "status somewhat akin to Catalan", right? Not of a "status closely parallel in all respects to Catalan". What differences there are in their statuses are mainly brought about politically. In Barcelona I revelled in the bookshops, and the lovely lucent Catalan language spoken in the streets and coffee shops – and I fell asleep at night to the songs, on any of several radio stations. Over the border in Sète and Montpellier I could find books in Occitan, and bought some of course; but there is far less of a will to promote it.

Noetica^Tea? 09:02, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

In southern France they are neglecting Occitan, and in Catalonia they are overdoing it with Catalan. I lived in Barcelona for a year, and I found it impossible to learn either Spanish or Catalan because a lot of people can only speak Spanish and a lot of people speak Spanish perfectly but pretend they speak only Catalan. And when you apply for a professorship at Barcelona University you must learn Catalan to a very high level first. Obviously that's to keep the other people from Spain out, but it also prevents international mobility. (Just think of applying simultaneously to universities in Catalonia, Wales, Scotland, Switzerland and Iceland if everybody acted like that. On the academic job market this wouldn't be so unusual.) Hans Adler 09:11, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

The OP's question didn't specify "major" languages, so I don't see why so many answers are dismissing languages that aren't considered "major". If we allow anything with its own ISO 639-3 code to be called a "language", then the closest languages to English are Scots and the extinct Yola, and the closest languages to French are Cajun French, Picard, Walloon, and the extinct Zarphatic (Judeo-French). Pais (talk) 08:14, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I consider Scots a dialect of English. --Trovatore (talk) 08:32, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Do you now? How intriguing. What do you say to the suggestion that its acceptance as a dialect of English is politically conditioned? Do you think that Serbian and Croatian are distinct languages? Do you think they always have been? (Show all working; points will be deducted for bad handwriting and provincialisms.) Noetica^Tea? 09:02, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I tend to think that the claim that it's a separate language is "politically conditioned", probably related to the push for greater autonomy for Scotland (not saying that's a bad thing; I generally like local autonomy unless it's used to restrict individual freedoms). As for Srpsko-Hrvatski, I don't speak a word of it (wait — krukh means bread, right? OK, maybe one word) so I couldn't say, but my default assumption is that it's one language, with the distinction being made politically.

John Anderson, my jo, John

We clamb the hill thegither

And mony a canty day, John

We've had wi' ane anither

Now we maun toddle down, John

As hand in hand we'll go

And sleep thegither at the foot

John Anderson, my jo

Come on, that's English. --Trovatore (talk) 19:20, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

@Trovatore: You can see Frisian street signs in Frisia: commons:Category:Bilingual city limit signs in the Netherlands. And you can buy Frisian novels in book stores in Frisia or online. To give just one example: [6]. You can study Frisian in schools and it has a rich literature. However it has no army. I wonder what your take is on Icelandic. No army either and even fewer speakers than Frisian...

@194.6.163.244: I think that one can say that apart from emigrants, all French have french has a native language... I'm not from France, but it doesn't need any expertise to tell that this is nonsense. If you tell me that all French citizens have almost-native fluency in French, that would be a claim I cannot refute. But almost-native fluency is different from native fluency. Many people in France have probably spoken their native languages exclusively in early childhood and aquired French only when they went to school where the centralist state forced them to learn it. Centralist education and media succede to make the almost-native fluent in French, but that doesn't change that their native language was different in the first place. --::Slomox:: >< 09:06, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

See Language_policy_in_France especially Language_policy_in_France#Endangered_languages. Except for emigrants (first or second generation), approximately 99% of French have french as native language. With differents accents and slight change of vocabulary (see endive/chicon edit war on WP fr), but still french. Pleclown (talk) 09:39, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

What's the source for the 99% number? Or is it a personal guess? My trust in that number is 0%.

The article you linked for example states that in the 1950s Breton with 1 million speakers still was the dominant language in parts of Britanny. Of these 250,000 are left nowadays. Most of them elderly. If someone was born pre-1950 in a predominantly Breton speaking region one's native language is probably Breton. These pre-1950 elderly people not only exist for Breton, but also for Flemish, Alsatian, Corsican, Occitan, Basque, Catalan etc. That's not "all French". --::Slomox:: >< 10:47, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

[7] <- 82% of all population have french as a native language. 194.6.163.234 (talk) 11:41, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

And there is a difference between speaker and native language. There weren't any "predominantly Breton speaking region" in the 1940s in France... You may think it's a shame, but it's not the point here. My grand mother was born in Finistère in 1928, and her mother tongue was french... 194.6.163.234 (talk) 11:46, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

The geographical spread of the Oïl languages (other than French) can be seen in shades of green and yellow on this map

Do you guys really think that Dutch and other Germanic languages are the closest to modern English? I think that (neo-)Latin influence in contemporary English is so enormous that there's a much higher degree of mutual intelligibility between English and the Romance languages than with its genetic Germanic relatives...

And to answer OP's question regarding French: the closest to modern standard French —Parisian— are other (today nearly extinct) Oïl languages such as Norman or Picard. --Belchman (talk) 16:51, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Well, a largish part of the vocabulary of English is from Romance sources. But there are a couple of caveats. First, the most commonly used words mostly have Germanic roots. Secondly, the modern Germanic languages also have significant influx of Romance words. In particular, most of the medieval to enlightenment influx of Latin comes from church and letters culture, and that was shared over much or Europe. Similarly, French cuisine and fashion terms are also widely present in other languages. And finally, grammar and word order is also significant for understanding a language. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:17, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

How did mutual intelligibility get into this? The OP didn't say anything about mutual intelligibility. The question is about the closest linguistic relatives of English and French; there's no rule that close linguistic relatives have to have a high degree of intelligibility. Frisian is (apart from Scots) the closest relative of English because English and Frisian diverged from a common ancestor more recently than they diverged from any other languages. That doesn't imply that English speakers should be able to understand Frisian. Pais (talk) 17:25, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Frisian languages#Old Frisian (permanent link here) says that "Frisian is the language most closely related to English and Scots". See also http://web.quipo.it/minola/frysk/language.htm. (When I invited readers to test their comprehension of Wikipedia in other languages, in my post of 03:04, 26 August 2011 (UTC), I possibly misled some of them in regard to the original question.)

—Wavelength (talk) 17:34, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

modern Germanic languages also have significant influx of Romance words --> significant maybe, but in no way comparable to the huge influence of Norman and Latin in English —huge to the point of clearly overpowering its Germanic substrate—.

The OP didn't say anything about mutual intelligibility. The question is about the closest linguistic relatives of English and French --> OP didn't specify that he meant close in a genetic sense. In that case I agree with you that Dutch is probably the closest major language. --Belchman (talk) 18:39, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

You think it's possible that by "Which other language is the closest to English?" the OP meant anything other than "Which other language is most closely related to English?"? I don't. If he had meant "Which other language has the highest degree of mutual intelligibility with English?", that's what he would have said. Pais (talk) 19:23, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Be that as it may, I think Dutch is the most mutually intelligible major language with English (again, with the caveat that I could be missing one of the Scandinavian languages, probably Danish). English has a large neo-Latin presence in its vocabulary, which will help you a lot if, say, you're trying to read a technical paper in French. But take a native English speaker with no outside language experience and put him in a French-speaking or Dutch-speaking environment, and I predict he'll be able to make basic conversation much sooner in the Dutch one. --Trovatore (talk) 19:29, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Modern English only shares very basic vocabulary with its Germanic cousins —and those words are so frequently encountered that anyone will learn them quickly no matter what... --Belchman (talk) 19:47, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I meant major languages. --75.10.48.39 (talk) 20:54, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Word Referring To An Antique Item's Specific History

The word is used often on Antiques Roadshow, and is often used when the owner has a detailed history of the item's origin and ownership. ΣΑΠΦ (Sapph)^Talk 13:11, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Provenance. --Jayron32 13:13, 26 August 2011 (UTC)