Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement: Difference between revisions
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; Re Re Re Re Re [[User:Heimstern|Heimstern Läufer]]: "Remind my of my duties" is more comprehensible English, Heimstern? And all you could write is just a comment on my notebook keyboard grammar? [[User:Vlad fedorov|Vlad fedorov]] ([[User talk:Vlad fedorov|talk]]) 18:16, 2 September 2011 (UTC) |
; Re Re Re Re Re [[User:Heimstern|Heimstern Läufer]]: "Remind my of my duties" is more comprehensible English, Heimstern? And all you could write is just a comment on my notebook keyboard grammar? [[User:Vlad fedorov|Vlad fedorov]] ([[User talk:Vlad fedorov|talk]]) 18:16, 2 September 2011 (UTC) |
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Maybe I have not read something on limitation period before filing this. The sole reason for this filing is [[Polonization]] article which is again owned by Polish nationalists just like it was before, and is completely whitewashed back to Polish POV. And EEML member returned this article to the version which was before. If POV removal of complete sections of sourced text is ok, by the guy who previously was fond of it and who was sanctioned for it, even despite limitation period lapsed - ok, maybe this report is stale for procedural reasons. (good reason for someone to remember what "merit" means). |
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As to my block - what purpose would proposed block serve? I won't file again report on AE (anyway useless), I would read what I missed to read on these arbs. What would it prevent? I think, you just rush to punitive blocks to shut your eyes on what's still going on with article in EEML area. One more childish admin would test block button. [[User:Vlad fedorov|Vlad fedorov]] ([[User talk:Vlad fedorov|talk]]) 04:57, 4 September 2011 (UTC) |
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; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : |
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : |
Revision as of 05:06, 4 September 2011
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For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
See also: Logged AE sanctions
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For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.
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Miradre
Blocked for one month. -- Atama頭 19:11, 30 August 2011 (UTC) | |||||||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | |||||||
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Miradre
Miradre has been editing the article Criticism of evolutionary psychology for a while now. The subject is not directly related to the topic ban, but there is nevertheless some proximity with topics covered in Race and intelligence and History of the race and intelligence controversy. The article currently contains a section Reification fallacy (historic link) which in its first paragraph discusses in detail the reification of intelligence, a topic introduced by Stephen Jay Gould in the precise context of the debate on R&I in the two articles above (it is discussed in those articles). I have advised Miradre that even discussing that section, or proposing that he would move it and thus edit that content, is a clear violation of the topic ban imposed by 2over0 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA). The responses of Miradre in the section linked to above were evasive and gave no recognition that this particular topic ("the reification of intelligence") lay well within the topic ban. The discussion took place on the talk page of the article because Miradre has previously blanked messages from me on their user talk page. Another edit of this kind occurred in the section on "criticism" in Sociobiology, a week into the topic ban. The beginning of the section makes it clear that the criticisms were related to the debate on race and intelligenc: there is a wikilink to the article race and intelligence. This material, including its relation with sociobiology, is also covered in the article on the history of the race and intelligence controversy. Miradre edited the section here[2], two paragraphs after the paragraph where the debate on race and intelligence is discussed. Miradre has edited other parts of this article more recently. Miradre added the section on IQ in psychopathy 2 days before the topic ban,[3] which is fine. But correcting somebody else's edit to it after the ban [4] does not seem quite right. Userspace edits like this [5], with an explicit discussion of R&I content and literature, are also blatantly pushing at the limits of the topic ban. Mathsci (talk) 11:32, 8 August 2011 (UTC) further edits. Mathsci (talk) 11:14, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
Discussion concerning MiradreStatement by Miradre
Comments by others about the request concerning MiradreComments by aprockI'll start by noting that Miradre has been testing the boundaries of his topic ban from day one. His request for clarification for precise delineation of "broadly construed" was submitted within 24 hours of his topic ban. Since then he has gone on to make edits in a large number of articles testing the boundary. The topic area is "the intersection of race/ethnicity and human abilities and behaviour, broadly construed" as described in the case amendments. Miradre has pursued two topic areas related to the topic ban. Miradre's edits in these topic areas have generated significant dispute and disruption. Extensive walls of text have been produced on talk pages and notice boards involving a diverse group of editors. Links to such discussions are included. The first topic area is that of evolutionary explanations for behavior and ability. This is a generalization of the point of view that Miradre was pushing in the topic area when he was banned. Specifically, Miradre was promoting content which supported the position that intelligence is genetically linked to race. Over the past month, Miradre has pursued the promotion of evolutionary psychology across 43 articles, many of which had no previous mention of the topic. Much of the content added is based on synthesis of primary sources, and generally adds undue weight to the view of evolutionary psychologists. This is exactly the same disruptive editing pattern that characterized Miradres approach to editing race/intelligence related articles. I ask that this specific issue addressed. If this is not the correct venue for this behavior to be addressed, I ask that an admin or ArbCom member suggest a more appropriate forum. Editing of artilces to promote the views of evolutionary psychology and genetic determinism.
The second topic area is in the promotion of Charles Murray's book Human Accomplishment. As author of The Bell Curve Charles Murray is a key figure in the race and intelligence debate. Editing of articles to promote Charles Murray's book:
Note that the diffs provided above are not meant to be an exhaustive list of all topical edits. Comments by ResidentAnthropologistI too like Captian Occam have been observing the MathSci/Miradre. MathSci is quite open about tracking Mirandre's edits to the encyclopedia. Miradre seems to spew their POV in any article they can think of. Examine the Scenarios Occam Pointed out, where Mirandre attempts this to continue their own POV pushing here:
Comment by Captain OccamI should start off by mentioning that although I’m topic banned from R&I, my topic ban makes an exception for AE, based on this request for clarification in which ArbCom determined that topic bans are not intended to prevent editors from opening or posting in AE threads. In the AE thread where my topic ban was expanded, the suggestion that I not participate in AE threads related to the R&I topic area is listed as "not compulsory". This exception is based on the linked request for clarification: "The latest clarification request may have carved out AE requests as a special case, but I see no justification to expand that exception further." I’ve been paying attention to this issue involving Mathsci and Miradre because of an e-mail Mathsci sent me on June 30th, threatening me with some of the behavior that he’s directing at Miradre if I attempt to appeal my topic ban. (On June 30th I’d had no contact with Mathsci in the past several months—the only context of him e-mailing me was that I was discussing the possibility of appealing my topic ban with Newyorkbrad.) The last time I had to endure the full extent of this from Mathsci was sometime in February, so I’ve been watching his interaction with Miradre to get an idea of how he currently acts towards people whom he regards as his adversaries. What I’ve seen isn’t encouraging. I am aware of five examples of Mathsci following to Miradre to articles he had never edited before in order to revert Miradre’s edits. In all five examples, literally the first involvement Mathsci ever had in these articles was reverting edits by Miradre. That’s only the articles in which Mathsci’s absolute first edit to both the article and its talk page was reverting Miradre. If one also includes articles where his first involvement was opposing changes from Miradre without reverting him outright, there are three additional examples: The Blank Slate, in which the first edit Mathsci ever made was tagging content that Miradre added as being non-neutral, [96] as well as Leonhard Euler and Democracy Now!, in which Mathsci’s first-ever participation was to oppose Miradre’s edits on the talk page. [97] [98] The edits that Mathsci opposes from Miradre are on topics as diverse as the possible over-representation of liberals in academia, a book by the psychologist Steven Pinker, and public radio broadcasting. The only common theme to these edits is that regardless of where Miradre goes on Wikipedia, or what sorts of articles he edits, he can always count on Mathsci following him there and opposing him. There are a few other ways that I think Mathsci’s behavior towards Miradre could be considered harassment:
Does it require any explanation what’s wrong with this? Anybody who’s been a Wikipedian for as long as Mathsci must be aware that it isn’t acceptable to try and intimidate another editor by posting private information about them, and that the request “please respect my privacy” from that editor should be responded to with something other than “Ha, ha, ha, ha.” More importantly, Mathsci has already been sanctioned for behavior that’s similar to this. I think in the past year I’ve improved on the behavior for which I was sanctioned in the R&I case (edit warring, etc.) but when I compare Mathsci’s behavior over the past month to the behavior described in his finding of fact, I don’t see any improvement. --- I don’t have a strong opinion one way or another about the quality of Miradre’s editing, so the purpose of this post isn’t to defend him. However, I think that Mathsci’s recent behavior is problematic enough that admins should consider the application of WP:BOOMERANG here. Perhaps the most appropriate response to this thread would be for Miradre and Mathsci to both be sanctioned. I’m aware that in the past Mathsci has been a valuable editor because of his useful contributions to articles about math and classical music. However, according to his comment here, as of the beginning of this year Mathsci has lost interest in making contributions to articles. Looking at all of his recent contributions, his exclusive focus now is on pursuing the editors that he regards as his adversaries. This is after several arbitrators already told him here that he should cease his involvement in the R&I topic area. Quoting what Roger Davies said to Mathsci there: “I expressed the hope in the motion lifting the topic restriction that you'd walk away entirely from R&I-related issues. This is because I do not believe that participants in cases are the best people to push for enforcement as it only opens old wounds (as has happened here). If another editor's conduct is egregious enough, it will be noted by other - less involved - editors, who can initiate appropriate action. That advice still stands and I urge you to follow it.” I should reiterate what my reason is for caring about this: even though Mathsci has mostly left me alone since his attempt to get me site-banned in February, his e-mail to me on June 30th makes it as clear as possible that this is only a temporary respite from him until I attempt to appeal my topic ban. Therefore, it is almost certain that in the future I’ll once again have to put up with the behavior he’s currently directing at Miradre, unless something is done to stop it. It would be beneficial to the community if Mathsci could somehow be encouraged to stop defying the instructions he was given by Roger Davies, and go back to making useful edits on math and music articles. I don’t have a strong opinion about how that should be accomplished, but I think admins should consider the suggestion that Ludwigs2 made in the amendment thread linked above: that Mathsci be placed under a restriction that disallows him from commenting on the behavior of other editors. Update 8/16: Can any admins see the edit summary in this diff? This edit summary was the most recent example of outing from Mathsci, but it’s apparently been oversighted now. I saw what the edit summary said before it got overisghted, but I’m assuming that I shouldn’t repeat it here, because the whole point of content being oversighted is to make it not visible anymore. If any admins can access this edit summary, I think it’s Mathsci’s most blatant policy violation in this thread—although the fact that it’s been oversighted probably makes that obvious, since oversight isn’t used for run-of-the-mill personal attacks.
Comment by SlrubensteinI won't comments specifically on the R&I arbitration. However, I have yet to see Mirardre make a well-researched NPOV contribution to an article. I do not think Mirardre fits the bill of "single-purpose editor" but she is one step away. At the Race and Intelligence article, it turned out that the most persistent arguments that blacks are inherently inferior to whites in intelligence came from people promoting evolutionary psychology, which took Mirardre to EP articles. Then it emerged that one of the established academic disciplines most critical of EP is anthropology, which took Mirardre to Anthropology articles. I just spent the past few days undoing Mirardre's tendentious edits to various anthropology articles (in short: Mirardre found one journal article that had a comment to it that encouraged dialogue between anthropology between EP and anthropology. On the basis of this comment alone, EP added a whole new section to each article on the importance of EP within anthropology.[113] Do I have to tell you how many peer-review articles are published on anthropology each year? Imagine if, for each article, we created a new section in the encyclopedia article! And Mirardre was not even drawing on the article, but on a comment to an article. Note: academics do not list such comments on their CVs because they are not peer-reviewed (whether Mirardre doesn't know this fact or knows it but disregards it, either way it suggests she is not qualified to edit on academic topics. I deleted the addition because it gave undue weight to a fringe view, and from an inappropriate source. The really troubling thing is this: the article itself was an interesting article on the nature-culture divide, and was accompanied by several comments. I pointed out to Miradre that there are a number of other articles on this theme, and that she could draw on these different articles and write a very informative and appropriate section on emerging new approaches to nature-culture in anthropology.[114] I was trying to take Mirardre's edit, and make a good-faith effort to consider what kind of work would lead to a genuinely positive edit, and give Mirardre constructive feedback. Mirardre just changed topics. Mirardre then went on to argu that a whole chapter of a current textbook on cultural anthropology is about EP.[115] Again, my concern was, how to turn a source into an imporovement to our article, and I asked Mirardre to summarize the chapter. Mirardre became evasive, and refused to discuss the contents of the chapter, insisting that the important point is that there is a whole chapter.Well, it turns out that is just a lie. MathSci took the time to verify Mirardre's claim and discovered that there is no such chapter.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cultural_anthropology&diff=prev&oldid=443685189 As Matchsci demonstrated, the topic occupied two pages in a 450 page book.[116] Then Maunus found the textbook, read it, and discovered that the textbook "describes EP as a discipline that 'impinges on cultural anthropology.'"[117] From this, we can see the following:
I admit that this discussion on the surface is not about race and intelligence, but if you go back to the attempted mediation at R&I by Ludwigs, and subsequent arguments there, anthropology was consistently deprecated by advocates of EP in scholarly debates over race and intelligence. A final comment on MathSci, whose editing has been impugned. It is true that MathScie has written a great many articles for WP, all impeccably sourced and well-written. It is true that he does not write as many new articles any more. I do not either. That is because my job requires m to write articles for which I will get credit, and WP does not count. I cannot speak for MathSci but I think a minimum requirement for an editor of an encyclopedia is the ability to comprehend that volunteer editors have more pressing and time-consuming obligations that mean they contribute erratically. We must judge MathSci not by the frequency of his edits by by their quality. I just went into some detail about an exchange on a talk page because this is the kind of contribution Captain Occam deprecates. Yet here we see that MathSci's contribution was exemplary and in fact just the kind of talk page contribution WP depends if it is to exist: Matchsci provided the evidence that Mirardre lied about there being a whole chapter on EP; MathSci provided the evidence that Mirardre was violating WEIGHT; along with Maunus MathSci demonstrated that Mirardre misrepresented the source. Were Mirardre left to her own devices we would have articles with lots of sources - but the articles would be poorly written, misrepresent the sources, even lie about them, and misrepresent scholarly debates. I have tried to work collaboratively with Mirardre and Mirardre has shown no interest in real research. Until Mirardre is banned, someone will have to check every source she cites, and correct her mistakes. This is a takes MathSci has assumed. He (and Maunus) deserves our praise and thanks for this Slrubenstein | Talk 09:59, 10 August 2011 (UTC) Comment by ItsmejudithI don't have much time to edit right now, but would just like to say in reference to comments above that Maunus and SlRubenstein are real experts in social science topics, while Miradre, as far as I can see actually is working like an SPA. His/her level of English is poor too, so when s/he adds large amounts of content, other people have to clean up afterwards. There seems to be a lack of understanding of how to summarise from academic texts, as opposed to direct quoting. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:26, 11 August 2011 (UTC) Comment by MaunusI would like to say that given Miradre's past and current behavior it is fully justified, indeed necessarry that editors who are aware of his history review his edits to almost any page that he might edit. He is clearly agenda driven in the large majority of his edits - wikipedia cannot afford to let that go unsupervised. There is a difference between hounding and actually watching out for potential content problems based on documented experience with certain editors editing patterns. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:07, 10 August 2011 (UTC) Comment by AndyTheGrumpI'd like to second Maunus's comments. I'm not going to suggest that any of us can ever approach Wikipedia with a truly neutral POV (I don't believe that such a thing exists), but I think that Miradre not only edits in such a way at to push a particular POV beyond any acceptable limits, but that also, from the evidence offered, actually goes out of his/her way to find ways to do so, knowing that this will provoke a response. Frankly, I see no way that this attitude can be seen as compatible with Wikipedia's objectives. If Miradre wishes to change public opinion, and/or the opinions of academia regarding issues of race, heredity, and related issues, fine - that is his/her right - just not here, and not in the belligerent manner exhibited. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:50, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Comment by MemillsThe concept of a "construct" has a long history in science, long before Gould. Nor is it limited to studies of intelligence; the term "construct" is used in many, if not most, areas of science. See the relevant WP article: constructs. That several editors above think that it only applies to intelligence is rather shocking. Rather, given the very strong anti-biological POVs of these editors, I suspect another agenda. The editors criticizing Miradre fail to note that there was previous discussion on the Talk page about moving the "reification fallacy" subsection, as well as other sections, and was initiated by several other editors (not Miradre), (see here and here). The rationale for the move was that many of the criticisms of evolutionary psychology are actually more germane to the nature vs. nurture page than to evolutionary psychology in particular. The editors above who label evolutionary psychology as "genetic determinism," and/or who suggest that editors who are trying to accurately describe evolutionary psychology are "promoting" it, betray a strong anti-biological POV. The attempt to associate moving the "reification fallacy" subsection with the topic of intelligence (to snag Miradre) is a red herring. It seems to me to be a POV-motivated attempt to harass and silence an editor with whom they philosophically disagree. Memills (talk) 05:36, 13 August 2011 (UTC) Comment by BoothelloIt's a shame that more uninvolved people haven't shown up to offer their opinion on Miradre's editing. So far everyone criticizing him seem to be R&I regulars who followed him to other topics after he was topic banned (well, except for Itsmejudith who was recruited by Mathsci specifically to oppose Miradre [118]). We could get a clearer picture about whether Miradre's editing has been a problem if some of the editors active on other articles he edits (like, from the looks of it, psychology and public broadcasting etc) would post, instead of just the core group of editors who have historically opposed him on R&I and then followed him elsewhere. For the record, I think there are some issues with Miradre's editing. The biggest one I've seen is his long, circular, and often off-topic arguments with other editors (Mathsci in particular) on talk pages. See a recent typical example of this here. This began as a question of whether Memills has a COI by commenting here as Mathsci claimed and then removed. This quickly devolved into an argument about whether it was a personal attack when Mathsci said that Miradre's arguments "are like those of a small child." Two uninvolved editors, Olyeller21 and Atama, complained there about how Miradre and Mathsci tend to waste other editors' time with this endless bickering. I think Mathsci is more at fault here than Miradre. In my own experience I've seen that it is possible to resolve content disputes with Miradre, it just takes some effort and patience. On the other hand I've found that reasoned discussion with Mathsci is often impossible. Mathsci does not comment on the talk pages of R&I articles, apparently because he has promised ArbCom not to, so whenever he disagrees with one of my edits he responds with threats and accusations in my user talk.
Two things worth noting here. First is the sheer quantity of this: nearly half of all revisions to my talk page are from Mathsci. Secondly, this is literally the entirety of my interaction with him. Never have I interacted with him on talk pages or articles, I have no prior history with him, and did not even know who he was until he started threatening me in my user talk. Based on my experience and observation, Mathsci has virtually no interest in collaborative discussions about content. When he disagrees with anyone's edits, he generally just resorts to belittlement, accusations, and threats.Boothello (talk) 06:51, 16 August 2011 (UTC) Comments on disruption of this request by ipsocks of Mikemikev
Result concerning Miradre
I was asked to come here to look over this request for enforcement. I don't normally get involved in arbitration enforcement, but this request has sat for weeks without any action. I'm uninvolved and an administrator, so I figured that I might as well give this a shot. There is a lot of discussion about this topic, but I think I can cut it down simply. Essentially, Miradre has been involved in the Criticism of evolutionary psychology article, and has edited the article as recently as a week ago. He is currently topic-banned under the discretionary sanctions proposed at WP:ARBR&I, per 2/0's decision, and the ban will not expire until early October. So the only question that needs to be asked, is whether or not the article in question falls under the ARBR&I ban. Let me repeat what the actual ban covers, to clear up any misconceptions. The initial arbitration case was titled "Race and Intelligence", but the ban covers "the intersection of race/ethnicity and human abilities and behaviour, broadly construed". Looking at the article, it's quite clear that human abilities and behavior are part of the article, specifically psychology itself, the discussion of IQ and personality traits in the "reification" section, the adaptability of human behavioral traits, and so on. In addition, those are intersected with ethnicity quite clearly, there is even a section on Ethnocentricism. That means that the article clearly falls under the topic ban, and given the clear intention to "push the boudaries" as demonstrated above, I don't see that this is an isolated incident. Therefore, I am blocking Miradre for the maximum of one month, as recommended at WP:ARBR&I#Enforcement of topic-bans by block. -- Atama頭 18:49, 30 August 2011 (UTC) |
Vecrumba
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Vecrumba
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Russavia Let's dialogue 13:46, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Vecrumba (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:EEML#Editors_restricted
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 24 August 2011 Vecrumba's words are clearly commenting directly on myself as an editor, rather than focusing on content. His words all but accuse me of being antagonistic in Baltic topics (as opposed to often presenting a POV which others neglect to add at the beginning); his words also all but accuse me of being a troll (rather than a long-term editor in good standing); his words also all but accuse me of being petty; his words also assume bad faith on my part (although he states he AGF); his words also paint a negative appearance of myself, rather than focusing on content.
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
As per Wikipedia:EEML#Log_of_blocks.2C_bans.2C_and_restrictions Vecrumba has been blocked 3 times for breaching this interaction ban.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- Vecrumba's breach of the topic ban is somewhat inflammatory, as it has nothing to do with content, but rather it is a direct personal attack on myself. The comments by User:Future Perfect at Sunrise at Vecrumba's last personal attack on myself are still current it appears (and he was blocked for 3 weeks for that attack).
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- [130]
- Response to Canens
- In light of the fact that the article in question was started in 2008, and was seen by way of being a "see also" on Occupation of the Baltic States, there is no interaction breach by my nominating for AfD an article which in good faith I believe is not notable enough for inclusion on WP. Note in everything I have written about the article in question, I have not made a single comment about the editor, but have concentrated purely on content, as per advice given by an arbiter at Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Russavia-Biophys/Proposed_decision#Potential_problem_with_restrictions -- at no stage was my nomination driven by who created it, but it is concentrated purely upon content. I have even stated on the record that any editor under an interaction ban with myself is welcome to comment on anything and everything, so long as they concentrate on content only, as per advice of Carcaroth.
Given that you are now suggesting a one-week block for myself due to my taking heed of advice given by an arb at an Arbcom case, I will be heading you off at the pass on this block by seeking clarification from the committee itself as to what is and isn't allowed under these interaction bans, and you are more than welcome to make known your opinion there. If it is the opinion of the committee that my nominating an article which doesn't comply with many WP policies for AfD that this is disruptive, then I will take issue with the committee directly due to the interaction bans not being intended to stop editors from editing articles in good faith (as per the committee members own words). --Russavia Let's dialogue 17:19, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
- Response to both admins (Canens and Ed)
- I would like you to note that the AfD has seen involvement from other editors who are banned from interacting with me (Vecrumba and Volunteer Marek), so going by your own words they should also be blocked for their involvement in the AfD, seeing as it was started by myself. However, I would not go to AE just for their involvement, so long as content is the only thing being discussed. I don't take the view of issues regarding content being a violation of the interaction ban but if they are, then Volunteer Marek would also be in a more obvious violation with his involvement. However, Vecrumba's involvement was not based on content; instead he chose from the outset to delve into personal attacks on myself, and that is the only reason I have come here. --Russavia Let's dialogue 01:13, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
- Comments re
- Sander Sade : Firstly, please note that Sander Sade was also a member of the EEML, so he is not a neutral, outside observer, but was a willing participant in harrassment and gaming that occurred in EE topics; and at the very least, he allowed it to occur by keeping quiet onwiki about it. It does not surprise me that he also pushes for me to receive an EE topic ban -- this was Article 1 in the EEML manifesto -- eliminate all opponents. Unfortunately, for Sander Sade, and others who push for me to receive such a topic ban, we have the likes of User:Miacek, with whom I can collaboratively edit with in this area; for we both recognise the fact that neither of us are here to engage in advocacy and rabid POV-pushing. User:Pelmeen10 gave me a barnstar back in March "For your contributions internationally and to improve Estonian-Russian relationship." Now if one other ex-EEML member, and another editor who edits a lot in Estonian-related areas, see no problem with my edits, then one has to question why all of these EEML members are pushing for me to topic banned, when not a single one has shown a single article edit of mine which is overtly POV, which doesn't rely on reliable sources, or which is truly disruptive. The truth of the matter there isn't a single edit in the last years that would fit this, let alone the last few weeks. So I hope that admins see such arguments by EEML members for exactly what they are; unnecessary furtherment of the battleground in the EE area. --Russavia Let's dialogue 06:39, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Vecrumba
Statement by Vecrumba
My words have nothing to do with TFD or Russavia individually, but who are symptomatic in this case. If civility and good faith are ever going to reign on Wikipedia in the Baltic and Eastern European article space, we can't have editors who misrepresent sources making out Baltic individuals to be Nazis or editors who fulminate over propagandic foreign ministries being the first ones who line up to nominate content for deletion which refers to the Soviet Union occupying the Baltic states. In my view, that is outright WP:HARASSMENT of the editor(s) who created that content. It's not an article deletion nomination in good faith when we all know that it's going to provoke another fist-fight. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 21:44, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
- P.S. My comments at the AfD can apply only to TFD (Lia Looveer supporting Nazis article content) without the involvement of Russavia. But as Russavia has seen fit to assault me here, I am now applying to both. PЄTЄRS
JV ►TALK 21:50, 24 August 2011 (UTC) - @TFD, I regret my personal perception is that your support of the AfD is partisan as you would know very well given past conflicts that we would eventually end up in some sort of dispute resolution. Whatever the spat Russavia has with another editor is not my concern. To avoid such unfortunate perceptions on my part and I suspect that of others in the future, we would all do well not to piss on the content of editors we consider to be our editorial opposition. I don't piss on anyone's Russophile content as I get no satisfaction from stomping on the good efforts of other individuals—I applaud and support all those whose love of their culture and heritage brings them to contribute to Wikipedia. Unfortunately, it seems that not all share my sentiments. PЄTЄRS
JV ►TALK 15:31, 25 August 2011 (UTC) - @Nanobear, I regret your venom over what you believe are personal attacks by myself against other editors. Russavia's historically anti-Baltic biased editorial position (I can provide diffs) and provocative timing of removing content which is not complimentary to Russia (recent activities) and seeming tit-for-tat leaps into AE requests (and, I ask you, when is the last time I originated one of these to pour gasoline on the fire?) present, to me, an activism which runs counter to our collegial cooperation. We should all consider going to bed early tonight and wake up on a less stressful side of the bed. That you've been completely inactive in the Soviet-Baltic Russian-Baltic sphere of topics but show up in short order to denounce me along the line of your past attacks on my character do not bode well for our moving on from past conflict. As for your diffs of me "attacking" you, I will simply start filing arbitration enforcement requests instead of simply complaining, as this seems to be a contest about who can eliminate who for how long having nothing to do with any postive aspect of Wikipedia. PЄTЄRS
JV ►TALK 00:10, 29 August 2011 (UTC) - P.S. @Nanobear, what you characterize as a "personal attack" upon your person was my comment to you regarding this outrageous attack upon myself with fabricated contentions of secret conspiracies. I regret this pattern of your tirades making yourself out to be the offended party ignoring that you are the originator of the conflict, having launched the initial assault. From now on I will commit to you to no longer complain (i.e., personally attack you), and instead will simply file enforcement requests, as that—unfortunately for us all—appears to be the only sort of interaction you're currently interested in pursuing in the sphere of Baltic topics. You have exhausted my patience and any good will that we had started to build up to the point of your attack which I mention above. (Anyone can reference my comment to you in the diff you provide which comes prior to my so-called attack.) PЄTЄRS
JV ►TALK 17:26, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
To the point in question, this subsequent request to delete content regarding a reputable source ("The Case For Latvia") which punctures myths regarding Latvia—including fiction which the Russian government continues to maintain is fact—rather proves my point, as:
- Neither Tammsalu nor I can comment or act or edit the article in any way as that will just bring more enforcement requests by Russavia or Nanobear or someone else participating here on the attack as Russavia now owns the article owing to the current interpretation of the interaction ban
- Confirmation of this act as a disgustingly cynical display of article control is proven by the fact that the article had not been touched in a year and a half and Russavia acted without any prior discussion on the talk page, so, a preemptive—and certainly overeager not waiting until I'm banned unless it was hoped to provoke another so-called "attack"—action to delete WP:IDONTLIKEIT content while his editorial opposition's hand are tied
Russavia's conduct prompting my original comment and, in particular, Russavia's continuing disruptive and combative conduct with regard to eliminating content not speaking highly of the Soviet legacy and Russia's defense thereof, conclusively and undeniably demonstrates that my alleged "personal attack" upon Russavia is nothing more than the factual observation it was intended as regarding the appearance of editors (plural) advocating along prior party lines.
Now that how the interaction ban works is clear, I will address the next such deletion request to eliminate content Russavia personally disapproves of via enforcement request, not factual and benign commentary. That said, I still
- support a ban on all enforcement requests and arbitration filings by everyone who participated at the EEML case in the area of contention, that is, the portrayal of the Soviet Union, the Soviet legacy, and the fallout of those acts and legacies relative to current Eastern European and Baltic nations and their relationship with Russia
- support the elimination of all interaction bans so we can discuss reputable sources and content
As I am confident in my use of sources and fair representation thereof, I feel no need to ban my editorial opposition. The question is, why is it so critical to Russavia and Nanobear to single me out to be banned? PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 14:08, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Vecrumba
Vecrumba implies that Russavia initiated an AfD for partisan reasons. The comments are unhelpful and disruptive to the AfD. TFD (talk) 14:41, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Nanobear
Starting an AfD about an article falls into the article space, not interaction space. Neither Russavia nor Tammsalu are subjects of the AfD. It is no personalization in itself and not covered by an interaction ban. Please see Wikipedia:Interaction_ban#Interaction_ban. Nanobear (talk) 20:04, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
- According to arbitrator Carcharoth, commenting on content is allowed: please see here. And that's exactly what Russavia did when he initiated the AfD. Nanobear (talk) 20:24, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
- This should probably be sent to ArbCom for a clear clarification (ha!), because I've seen two admins disagree here on what an IBAN should or shouldn't allow. The core issue is how much AGF should go into "I didn't know I was reverting/AfDing stuff added by someone with whom interaction is prohibited", and what should be done in the inevitable cases when it does happen: revert or allow content discussion between the ibanned parties? FuFoFuEd (talk) 02:40, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
So talking about content previously edited by Tammsalu is a violation of interaction ban? This seems to be a completely different opinion that what we currently have in our policy. The policy specifically allows content edits. Russavia was only discussing content - which is allowed - until Vecrumba launched an extremely offensive personal attack against him (not the first time Vecrumba has made such attacks). The only correct thing to do is to then report the attacker on this noticeboard, which is what Russavia did. It seems that you wish to ban Russavia for doing everything correctly. This seems to be completely at odds with current policy. Nanobear (talk) 01:24, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
History of Vecrumba's incivility and personal attacks against editors
After Vecrumba's last personal attack on Russavia (for which he was blocked for 3 weeks), and because Vecrumba is now continuing such attacks, it seems clear that a longer block is now in order for him. This is especially the case since Vecrumba's defence of his attack (see his section above) is an attempt to deflect from the fact that the personal attacks were clearly directed against Russavia.
If the personal attack really wasn't directed against Russavia, but against TFD (which seems unlikely), like Vecrumba claims, then this only demonstrates that Vecrumba has a major problem staying civil in the EE topic area. It looks like Vecrumba deems it necessary to attack all editors instead of commenting on content only, as Russavia notes above. In this case, discretionary sanctions of WP:DIGWUREN apply, and given Vecrumba's battlefield mentality a complete block from the EE area seems now warranted.
I too have been the target of Vecrumba's attacks on many occasions. Two recent examples are: [131][132]. In [133] Vecrumba launches an attack against a respected admin (Future Perfect at Sunrise), because the admin dared to block an EEML member. Nanobear (talk) 02:23, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Tammsalu
On the general issue of what constitutes a personal attack, a review of WP:NPA#WHATIS may be helpful, particularly the fourth bullet point "Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence". On an abstract level, if a party subject to such an accusation is also under an interaction ban or banned in the past, then such evidence must demonstrably exist. For example if someone said to me something like "I regret you have chosen to revert to your former belligerent conduct." given my block log I really can't claim it was a personal attack, can I. --Martin Tammsalu (talk) 19:52, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
- The AfD at the centre of this case has been closed with the admin making the observation "most participants on both sides of the issue are people who I remember as having been involved in nationalist disputes related to historic conflicts in Eastern Europe including issues related to the Baltic states", which somewhat vindicates Vecrumba's viewpoint expressed in the AfD. It wasn't a personal attack. --Martin Tammsalu (talk) 00:17, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
- Arbcom is now be examining the issue of interaction bans at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Amendment#Request_to_amend_prior_case:_Russavia-Biophys, therefore this case can be closed with no further action. --Martin Tammsalu (talk) 08:15, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Sander Säde
This is getting ridiculous. It is painfully obvious that the interaction bans do not work and are often used to game the system.
There is not much to say for Vecrumba. Whether his comment was targeted at Russavia or TFD, whether he was right or not, it doesn't matter. The comment was out of line and should be treated as such.
After he was reported to Arbitration Enforcement last time, Russavia's behavior became excessively pointy - one could even say he set out intentionally to see how far he can stretch the iban. And now he is about to receive yet another addition to his extremely lengthy block log. What is the point in that, it is painfully obvious Russavia sees nothing wrong with his current or past behavior and refuses to change it.
I would recommend an indefinite full ban from any topic related to Eastern Europe, Baltics, Soviet Union and Russia, with the exception of aviation industry and Russia's international relations (but not in case of relations with aforementioned Baltic States and Eastern European countries) - and make it very clear in the wording that it is Russavia's very last chance before getting an indefinite ban from Wikipedia.
That would allow Russavia editing noncontroversial topics where he is a valued contributor - and would keep him out of trouble with editors and topics he has issues with. If some editor follows him to aviation topics and starts to cause trouble for Russavia - banhammer should come down heavily there.
Remove all interaction bans related to Russavia, as they are no longer (hopefully) needed. Wikipeace is restored and everybody are happily contributing, instead of wasting time bickering at ArbCom pages.
--Sander Säde 05:57, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
- Sigh. Russavia, please stop perpetuating the nonsensical myth you were harassed or singled out in any way by EEML. Let me spell it our for you once again: No one in EEML didn't give a flaming f**k about you. You were but one in a crowd - and not even a leading the well-organized crowd. During the EEML case I did a several searches to see if you were mentioned without the others of said crowd - and no, you were not (of course, I did not have the emails prior to my joining to the list, so I cannot vouch for those). No one has been able to show you were harassed in any way. Please, just stop already, no arbitrator or administrator believes you.
- Secondly, you say I've participated in "harrassment and gaming", despite that a very thorough ArbCom investigation did not find anything similar to your claims. Stop with the lies and personal attacks.
- Thirdly, "EEML manifesto"?!!! WTF is that and why didn't I get a copy of it when I joined the mailing list - joined a list of people from very varied backgrounds to discuss Wikipedia. Discussions, which were by most part completely harmless (again, as found by ArbCom).
- Also, could you please look at least a bit to your sentence structure? As a non-native English speaker, I have a hard time understanding the point of your comment, other than "he was in EEML, he is eeeeeeeeeevil, since we all know EEML was eeeeeeeeeevil. Eeeeeeeeeevil!". We both know very well that if EEML ArbCom case would have been about content, behavior and coordination of both "sides", EEML would have looked angelical compared to "child abuse is common in Estonia" people.
- That is my last comment here for this enforcement request. I see no reason to endure being blatantly attacked for suggesting a reasonable and fair solution.
Result concerning Vecrumba
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
- I'm of the view that Russavia's initiation of that AfD violated their interaction ban with Tammsalu - see my comment here - and Vecrumba's comment violated their interaction ban with Russavia - which is plain. Proposing 1 week blocks for both. T. Canens (talk) 17:01, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
- Irrelevant sidenote: Every time I see myself being referred to as Canens I chuckle a little. It's the present active participle of the Latin verb cano, -ere, meaning "singing". No, it's not a surname. T. Canens (talk) 11:58, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
- Agree with T. Canens that one-week blocks of both Russavia and Vecrumba are justified for violating the respective interaction bans: Russavia's with Tammsalu, and Vecrumba's interaction ban with Russavia. The feud between the EEML people and Russavia is not over, and the only restriction still in place which can limit the effects of this feud is the set of interaction bans. EdJohnston (talk) 03:51, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
- I've been discussing the future of these interaction bans with some users. If I can find support for doing something different I'll propose it back here. Please consider keeping the thread open for a couple more days. EdJohnston (talk) 15:44, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
Vecrumba 2
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Vecrumba 2
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Nanobear (talk) 02:55, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Vecrumba (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:EEML#Editors_restricted
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- Vecrumba has been blocked many times for violating this ban
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- Vecrumba has done a wholesale revert of Russavia on an article which subject is directly within Russavia's editing interests. Vecrumba states that it is a good faith revert, yet he also reverts the bypassing of a redirect by Russavia, demonstrating that it is not a selective revert, but an outright revert. Vecrumba is obviously attempting harrass Russavia, and is breaching his interaction ban in a very provocative manner. Given the other issue of Vecrumba's personal attacks on Russavia (see above thread), a topic ban at the very least seems to be warranted for Vecrumba.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Vecrumba 2
Statement by Vecrumba
This filing is nothing but a personal attack by Nanobear, who has been absent from the topic area or proceedings other than to attack me or to make out my complaints about his attacks as being attacks originated by myself. If you want to stop the madness, ban everyone who has participated in any of these from ever filing arbitration enforcement requests against each other. What, I undo a POV delete of content, and that is editorial interaction which is banned, yet the same editor can attack me at will at arbitration enforcement? Am I the only one who sees how ludicrous this is? Don't make me out to be the villain when I undo the deletion of reputable content by an editor inimical to the Baltics—a deletion which was accompanied a edit justification which was a personal characterization of a reputable source as unsubstantiated allegations. As requested, I undid my revert of that deletion, although that does set the precedent that in any set of editors who are banned from interacting, whoever gets there first automatically gets to have their content win with no recourse for the other editor(s). Given that Baltic topics are down to two or three editors who haven't been run off, this filing by Nanobear to get me blocked is, effectively, a cynical and overt bid for topic control. And as long as Nanobear and Russavia engage in provocative behavior gaming the system to eliminate editors, the atmosphere will remain poisoned. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 23:03, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Vecrumba 2
Comment by Volunteer Marek
So much for the idea that AE reconciles warring parties or actually manages to solve problems. As this retaliatory AE request clearly demonstrates, AE makes battlegrounds WORSE, by providing dedicated warriors a venue to pursue their grudges. And yes, you AE admins are to blame for this - discussing some esoteric nuances of what an interaction ban is or arguing over whether a series of reverts/AfD nominations/drive-by-tagging by a user under an interaction ban actually constitutes a violation of an interaction ban or are content edits not included (seriously? The whole freakin' point of these bans is to get users separated from content they perennial fight over! How hard is it to see that?) is exactly the kind of thing that pours gasoline on these fires (where the hell is Sandstein? I miss him - he got things wrong sometimes but at least he didn't make things worse).
Enjoy:
![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d2/Blank.png/1px-Blank.png)
You want to end this, it's simple:
- Topic-ban Martin and Vecrumba from editing anything related to Aviation or Embassies (which is mostly where Russavia edits) as well as the Russian space program (which is where Nanobear edits)
- Topic-ban Russavia and Nanobear from editing anything related to Estonia, Latvia, Poland or Ukraine (for good measure throw in Hungary and Romania, where there's been trouble in the past). For the most part the aviation/embassy/space program articles for these countries have already been written, can be written by someone else or don't need to be written. This way both of them can do the good they do on Wikipedia - contribute content - without the bad they do - keep fucking with Estonian/Baltic/Polish/Ukrainian editors for no reason except some kind of way old grudge.
- Prohibit all of these parties from filing any AE/AN-I/similar drama board requests against each other (hell, throw me in there too) or from commenting on AE/AN-I/similar drama board requests related to each other.
If you're feeling nice then include some kind of provision to the effect that any of the above can be appealed after three years or so (note that this latest round is a rehash of two year old edit wars! Apparently people here have a long memory in this topic area. That needs to be taken into consideration). And if you're feeling wary of potential gaming then make scary faces and wag your fingers and say in a deep baritone that any potential gaming of these sanctions will be severely punished (I'm being a bit facetious, but I'm serious at the same time - this whole thing started because of gaming of interaction bans).
Otherwise prepare to loose more good contributors, deal with a whole bunch of nonsense and look forward to playing a role in escalating the conflict further. But hey, at least then that will give WP:AE a justification for its existence.
Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:44, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Tammsalu
Arbcom is now be examining the issue of interaction bans at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Amendment#Request_to_amend_prior_case:_Russavia-Biophys, therefore this case, in which the revert at issue has been un-reverted, can be closed with no further action. I am sure that those certain people who profess to focus on content rather than on editors, would also agree that this case be closed. --Martin Tammsalu (talk) 08:13, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Russavia
The article in question is clearly within my scope of interest, so for anyone to claim that I am removing information based upon some warped sense of what my POV is, which then sees an editor needing to breach their interaction ban like they did - they were not involved. I also have good mine to ask for check user on a particular editor who only edits when there are disputes ongoing, and they have been around for some time by the looks it, given that they have a knack for pulling info out of article from 3-4 years ago. As to this being discussed at Amendment, I have made it clear that under no circumstances do I want the interaction ban with certain editors looked at---for they are engaged in combative, personal attacks which are reminiscent of the EE battleground of 2 years ago---2 editors in particular. Therefore, given my comments on EdJohnstons, about the particular editor in question, this is still an open case, given that after undoing the revert, they continued to engage in personal attacks upon myself, and other editors. That's all I have to say, I'm back off to work on content. --Russavia Let's dialogue 08:36, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
Result concerning Vecrumba 2
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
- At my request Vecrumba has undone his edit at Latvia–Russia_relations. The overall problem of how to keep Russavia and the EEML editors out of each others' hair is still being considered above, in a previous report which is still open. EdJohnston (talk) 14:08, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Someone35 (2)
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in this 2010 ArbCom motion. According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- Someone35 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Someone35 (talk) 08:04, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
- Sanction being appealed
- Topic banned for 3 months
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Result_concerning_Someone35
- Administrator imposing the sanction
- T. Canens (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Notification of that administrator
- here
Statement by Someone35
I got banned less than half a day after my first ban ended. I haven't edited anything that is not a talk page or my userpage since then. The admin who banned me said I'm banned for breaking these rules, but they explicitly state that " impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia". And I wasn't warned (which is also required, "Prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to this decision". I wasn't given any warning before he banned me.) and I didn't edit any page since before my first ban. This ban is really unnecessary. I removed the sentence that I was banned for in the moment I saw that other users complained about it because I understood it was wrong and as an apologize to Nableezy (and I removed the userboxes on my talk page too). I have only made about 3 edits that count as "disruptive" (2 at Qula and one at Palestinian rabbis), all in the same day and I already got banned for it and won't do this kind of edits again. So if you can either narrow or remove the topic ban I'll be thankful and won't attack other editors or edit war again. I agree to mentorship, if T. Canens approves it as well.-- Someone35 (talk) 05:28, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
Statement by Timotheus Canens
Even now, I see nothing in Someone35's writings that he understood the reasons for the topic ban. My reasons for imposing the ban has been explained in the thread above, which I will not duplicate here. My views stay unchanged. If Someone35's misconduct is due to simple inexperience, then it is best for them to acquire that experience in a topic that is not rife with interpersonal disputes. If you discover that someone is struggling with math, putting him in a calculus class would be a spectacularly bad way to solve the problem.
Broader comments:
- I have become convinced that the time-limited bans previously employed in this topic area have been ineffective in controlling disruption. What is often the case is that the editor jumps back into the topic area as soon as the ban expires, only to be banned again for misconduct shortly thereafter. Therefore, I will employ indefinite topic bans with periodic reviews, similar to the topic bans used in WP:ARBRB, in this topic area in the future, in the absence of extraordinary circumstances.
- Moreover, it has become apparent, sadly, that disputes from this area has been exported into related topics. Moreover, narrow topic bans tend to be actually harder to observe, since in many cases the line is not quite as clear-cut. This is why I opted for a broader ban from the entire Middle East in this case and will do so for all future cases, unless special factors are present.
- How can I prove you that I fit for editing in middle east related topics?-- Someone35 (talk) 11:18, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
Statement by Zero0000 (somewhat involved)
As far as I know, Someone35 is yet to acknowledge that he did anything wrong at all. On the contrary, he thinks the 1RR rule is "stupid". Is that attitude conducive to a reprieve? Where can we see a clear statement that he respects the rules and undertakes to abide by them? Zerotalk 11:11, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
- I meant that this rule is easy to bypass not that it's stupid that people can't revert other people's edits for an infinite amount of time. Also according to this I was supposed to get a warning before the ban, and I didn't. If T. Canens gave me a warning that I'll get another ban I would have stopped immediately doing whatever I did.-- Someone35 (talk) 12:30, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
Statement by Demiurge1000 (uninvolved)
I'm going to use this section to note the deep and presumably unintentional irony of what Russavia said in the now-closed Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Someone35 (i.e. his first appeal, above). "Any editor who attacks another editor using either nationality, race, religion, etc as the underlying basis of the attack should be shown the door immediately." Does etc include age? If so, it seems odd to follow that sentence immediately with a disrespectful comment based on Someone35's age. (I'll assume that the threat to contact someone in a position of authority over Someone35 was made entirely in jest; people have received lengthy bans from Wikipedia, never mind the topic area, for that sort of thing.)
I think Someone35 should immediately retract any suggestion (anywhere) that Nableezy or others are "stalking" him, and apologise for the "anti-Semite" remark (I note he removed it some time ago anyway, but I think he needs to accept that his reasons for thinking it was justifiable were incorrect). Then I think some consideration should be given to shortening or otherwise ameliorating this topic ban. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 12:45, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
- Just a note that Someone35 won't be able to act promptly on the first half of my suggestions as, according to his talkpage, he's offline until sometime on 30th August. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:51, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
- I'm back, I was away for only 1.5 days and there were no traffic jams so I came back fast. I already removed the userboxes on my talk page and the problematic sentence in Hebrew about Nableezy and the Jerusalem Talmud. According to [[135]], I was supposed to get a warning before being banned (like Nableezy told me to revert my edits at Qula before the first time I was banned), and I didn't. If T. Canens would have given a warning to me then I would have stopped immediately whatever wrong I did-- Someone35 (talk) 12:35, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
- Looking at this another way, if you're in a class at school and you pour a bottle of cola over a classmate's head, you don't then say "well if the teacher had told me it was wrong then I would have stopped doing it." You're expected to know already that it's wrong to do that in the middle of a class, so it is likely to result in consequences. You need to look at this again and think about it; you were in the wrong here, and there was no need for an extra warning before action being taken. Your accepting that is probably important. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 22:48, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
Statement by Russavia (totally uninvolved)
The editor chose to engage in personal attacks against another editor, and then when caught out they say that the editor has no right to complain because it was written in Hebrew. This, in my opinion, is more egregious, as he has not only chosen to engage in personal attacks (which is already enough to be shown the door), but has done so in another language in an attempt to avoid being caught, and then when challenged on it he doesn't see any problem with it. And he only got a topic ban? I'd say he got off light, as if I were the subject of a personal attack, I'd be pushing for a complete block for at least that period of time, given that the editor in question sees nothing wrong with making personal attacks on other editors. --Russavia Let's dialogue 20:06, 29 August 2011 (UTC}
- I removed that sentence in the moment I saw he complained about it and I pretty much learned the lesson this time and I won't do such things again-- Someone35 (talk) 07:40, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
Statement by Wikifan12345 (involved in topic area)
- @Russ-Civility is totally independent of the area in conflict. A topic ban would not be the appropriate punishment for personal attacks - a comprehensive block (typically 24 hours first offense) would be fair. The problem I have is this kid has zero record, no prior blocks, and no accusations since he started an account however many months ago. I don't understand how a 72 hour block can mutate into a 3-month topic ban pending appeal (not even a timed ban). Nableezy himself said the conflict was ended after Someone removed his statement:
I cant say that there is presently an issue. A fourteen year old child said something stupid, it has been removed, end of story as far as I am concerned. Should this child be allowed to continue editing such topics? Not my decision, and not really sure if that is a question to decide here.
- Someone removed the comment when he was able to (blocked for 72 hours) and that seemed to settle things. Editors aren't expected to humiliate themselves to prove their ability to edit productivity. He violated basic civility rules by accusing one editor of being anti-semitic. He has stricken the statements, thus admitting the comments were unacceptable. Beyond that I don't see any other behavioral problems. Nableezy filed the original AE, does he/she believe this Someone "child" deserves such a long topic ban? WikifanBe nice 23:00, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
- In light of this edit, I find myself struggling to defend Someone's behavior. As an obviously young editor I would hope administrators would be more forgiving in situations like these. An editor with a vested interest in a crucial area of Wikipedia must understand the dynamic process of collaboration and contribution. I'd say many editors start out with a very SOAPY/opinionated mentality, but eventually normalize themselves with typical procedure and policy.
Someone35 meets this definition. The topic ban imposed on Someone is punitive in nature and will not alter his behavior. How else will he learn the rules if he can't experience the environment? If admins wish to alter Someone's behavior, a whole-sale topic ban is futile. Throwing out users like Someone only deters potential editors from joining the very saturated and almost clan-like pool of I/P users. Someone's original 72 hour block was justified, but the 3 month ban is - ultimately - very hard to support when looking at the evidence independent of commentary from involved users. A personal attack, one edit-war (and barely one), and obvious civility problems. These can be rectified through mentorship, and punished with short blocks. It might be hard for educated admins to understand the brain chemistry of a young editor. Perhaps a user who is closer to his age (openly of course) could weigh in? WikifanBe nice 06:47, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
- I was trying to be nicer to him by talking with him about a subject that he seems to be interested in (israeli palestinian conflict), but it went nowhere so I deleted that section-- Someone35 (talk) 08:00, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
Statement by Cptnono (involved and biased)
The original block was longer than precedent would point to being acceptable. The ban was without any admin actually attempting to counsel the guy. The disruption of edit warring was handled with the block. The incivility was much less than many in the community have gotten away with or received shorter bans for (name calling, legal threats, and so on). Although I would not blame it on him being a kid (if he wants to hang out on the internet he will learn to not divulge information others can use against him) I would blame it on inexperience. I do think he needs to grovel a bit. That is what the admins are looking for. It is wrong of them but that is what they want.
His offenses are worthy of a strong warning and a good mentoring. Not a long block based off of one editor running into trouble with several others on an opposing side. But if he refuses to admit wrong I don't care what happens to him.
You are involved and biased Zero. Cptnono (talk) 05:22, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Malik Shabazz (involved)
Having spoken with Someone35 earlier today, I believe he is a very young editor who needs to learn quite a bit about how Wikipedia operates. I don't know whether a complete overturn of his topic ban is appropriate, but if it stands I think it should be narrowed to the Arab–Israeli conflict (and not the whole Middle East) so Someone35 can contribute constructively to articles on non-controversial subjects related to Israel (nature, geography, etc.). I think he would benefit tremendously from mentorship; if nobody else steps forward to mentor him, I will do it myself. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 21:00, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Someone35
Following the suggestions made by Malik Shabazz and Ctpnono above, I have suggested to Someone35 that mentoring is something he should consider accepting. He has offers of that from both myself and Malik. I have also made some suggestions about ways forward (in addition to my comments under my statement, above.) While I think the topic ban was reasonable, I do feel that it would be useful if Someone35, being a young teenager, were able to edit articles about the country that he lives in. (My understanding is that the present topic ban does not allow that.) He's already been editing constructively about weather and geography and such, and he takes quite a few useful panoramas of landscapes in Israel and Palestine (one of his panorama images is already a featured image). Encouragement to continue contributing positively, would be really useful. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:06, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
- I agree and thank you for this solution, now we need T. Canens to confirm it-- Someone35 (talk) 18:11, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
- I think you mean "agree to it" ... which he may or may not do, and he is under no obligation to comment either way, as far as I know.
- Being slightly more specific, the suggestion is to narrow the topic ban so that it covers editing and discussions related to the Israel-Palestine-Arab conflict, broadly construed; but not all articles/discussions related to the Middle East as a whole. (So for example, editing an article about Tel Aviv would be permissible; but editing information or discussions about who recognises Tel Aviv as the capital city of Israel would not be permissible, because that touches on the conflict.) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:52, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
- I missed T.Canens' rather important earlier comment, when I made my comments above. T.Canens is correct that Someone35 has been slow to acknowledge any understanding of the reasons for the topic ban. (I'm working on that...) I can also readily accept that the move to a wider topic ban ("the entire Middle East" rather than just dispute areas) was for good reasons. I can well imagine that there are problems with narrow topic bans, and even similar risks with Someone35 (for example, some of his photographs, taken from within Israel, have the Golan Heights in the background... all sorts of potential problems there.) What I will offer is that, if I'm mentoring Someone35, I will be keeping an eye on his contributions, and also laying down the law as to what topics exactly he is permitted to edit on. I'm sure there will be risks of his edits drifting into contentious areas, but I won't be allowing it. If he fools around with those limitations, I will request the topic ban be expanded again.
- This entire proposal is rather up in the air, since Someone35 needs to agree that the narrowing of the topic ban is what he wants, and perhaps he also needs to make a few statements that indicate he understands why his behaviour incurred a topic ban in the first place. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:24, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
- I don't understand why T.Canens' new philosophy is suddenly being imposed on a first time offender. For a veteran at AE (like myself) - yeah, sure - but as stated dozens of times he has no prior history. The original filer, Nableezy, has, as far as I know, accepted Someone's apology and stricken edits. He was blocked for incivility. What exact contributions made by Someone warrant a topic ban? Personal attacks alone is not grounds for a whole-sale topic ban. No where in ARBPIA does it suggest editors are supposed to admit explicit guilt for alleged bad behavior. He is a kid, let him contribute. His photo collection is great and it would be nice to have a fresh editor. If he ends up violating ARBPIA then throw the book at him. WikifanBe nice 07:24, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
(Just a note that Someone35 has changed his statement to indicate a better understanding of why the topic ban was necessary - convenience diff. I'll explain elsewhere how strikeout would usually be a better way of doing things like this for the future.) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:28, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
Result of the appeal by Someone35
Jingiby
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Jingiby
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:26, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Jingiby (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBMAC
Dscretionary sanctions
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 3RR violation at Slavic speakers of Greek Macedonia, edit-warring against two other users on two distinct issues:
- 28 Aug, 04:17
- 28 Aug, 13:24
- 28 Aug, 17:05
- 28 Aug, 18:06. Attempt at discussion [136] proved utterly futile and was met with complete stonewalling [137][138]
- Several other slow edit-wars on other articles, mostly against Lunch for Two (talk · contribs) [139][140][141][142][143][144]
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- Has extensive history of prior ARBMAC sanctions, most recently a full-year ban from 2009 to 2010
- Recent warning by myself see above.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
The current conduct is a return to an old and very constant pattern of stubborn agenda editing; see block log. Jingiby's current opponent, Lunch for Two (talk · contribs), is not much better in terms of edit-warring and is certainly just as opinionatetd and tendentious, but appears to be slightly more sensible in discussion. He would also be in for a sanction, but it seems he hasn't had an ARBMAC warning yet. Unless, that is, he is in fact a returning sock; I have a suspicion he is Mactruth (talk · contribs), who is permanently banned from the topic area. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:26, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
- Note: Struck out the bit above about the sock suspicion; having interacted a bit more with Lunch now I can confidently say he behaves far more reasonably in discussion than Mactruth ever did. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:39, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- [145]
Discussion concerning Jingiby
Statement by Jingiby
My position is as follows: without to boast, I am one of the most informed editors on the Macedonian issue on English Wikipedia. With one too long, formal block, the accuracy of the most of the articles connected with the Macedonian question will deteriorate, due to the persistent nationalism implemented there by numerous socks from a blocked users, as well as by different IP-vandals. They never will be blocked really or banned formally unlike me. My last block for a year was without serious reason and done more spontaneous then reasonable.
The supercilious bureaucracy looks sometimes quaint and should be restricted as ineffective instrument. Jingby (talk) 08:12, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
As per EdJohnston's commen "I guess the 8 different admins who issued those blocks must all have been mistaken". No, of course, but the time is inside of us, and we are inside the time. It turns us and we turn it Jingby (talk) 09:30, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
By the way, as per Nipsonanomhmata's comment, only recently, in June 2011, the Arbitration Committee passed a motion which lifted the restriction that was placed on the administrator Future Perfect at Sunrise. The restriction had prohibited Future Perfect at Sunrise from using administrative tools in the Greek and Macedonian topics. Future Perfect at Sunrise was reminded to abide by the policies guiding administrative acts in areas where one is involved, and to apply particular care to avoid conflict in areas related to Greece and Macedonia. Jingby (talk) 10:51, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
To sum up: I must change my edit-behavior. I need to discuss more, to search longer consensus, to be more patient and careful. I must avoid my spontaneous reactions to revert or to edit the text, provoked by vandals, IP-s or socks, even if I believe I am right. More, even if I am really right.
OK! I promise. Jingby (talk) 04:41, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Jingiby
As the editor clearly does not get it, a one-year block is clearly justified, and I would be somewhat inclined to WP:CBAN the editor as having exhausted the community's patience. --Russavia Let's dialogue 20:12, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
I have no account but I would like to share my opinion here. I don't know where the user exhausted the community's parience, but if you see his contribs you will see that if he wasn't in this site, the most Balkan pages would have become blatant POVs and propaganda, and the activity of manipulative POV-pushing in some of these pages is still extremely high and in some of them no one reverts it except him. Soon POV-pushing there was in Bulgarians in Albania, Slavic speakers of Greek Macedonia and Gorani for example, where some editors were removing mass of reliable sources and information, separetely placing POV manipulation, which free editors with disruptive character who only delete information should be blocked much more than a user who only broke the 3rr, in the case surely provoked by POV-pushing. These editors are surely trying to make him nationalistic edit-warrior when he broke the 3rr, but if you check his contribs you will see that the user has not disruptive character neither tendencous editing, one of the best examples for neutrality. I don't know what are the standarts for four reverts, but if he is blocked for a year some editors are going to have fun with some pages in the site, seriously. 213.226.17.10 (talk) 19:49, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
- Comment by Athenean
Lunch for Two reminds me very much of PMK1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who recently had his account deleted and even went around removing signatures because he felt his user name revealed too much personal information. The accounts are virtually identical in terms of interest (essentially single-purpose "Aegean Macedonian" publicity), level of English, and general behavior. It is no coincidence that Lunch for Two appeared soon after PMK1 disappeared. From the very beginning it was clear that Lunch for Two was not a new user by any stretch. Athenean (talk) 01:08, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
- Comment by Nipsonanomhmata
As Fut Perf noted, it had also occurred to me, that Lunch for Two has very much in common with Mactruth because they have frequented the same articles. I note that there is a conflict of interest since Fut Perf supports the same POV as Lunch for Two and they both oppose Jingiby's POV. Jingiby deserves nothing more than a mild 3RR block as a reminder not to exceed 3RR. I also note that Fut Perf is responsible for 5 of the previous 18 15 (as per Ed Johnston) blocks (that's one third of all the blocks). Why not let somebody else find a reason to block him? This looks like over-zealous persecution. Moreover, the title of the article with the edit war is in itself a POV title. Nipsonanomhmata (Talk) 00:48, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
Result concerning Jingiby
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
- This user is a named party of the original WP:ARBMAC decision (2007), so he's been involved in ethnic wars for a long time. He has been blocked 15 times, for as long as one year. He's been placed under a lot of bans and revert limits, then he gets repeatedly sanctioned for breaking those. Due to the difficulties he finds in staying on the straight and narrow, I think a further block for one year is probably the best way to go. A further attempt at a regular topic ban is probably futile. EdJohnston (talk) 19:26, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
- I hope that Future Perfect can provide more details of any recent misbehavior by Jingiby. So far I perceive a recent 3RR violation at Slavic speakers of Greek Macedonia. Have there been other policy violations over the last 6-12 months? The 15 blocks certainly speak for themselves, but they are not recent. EdJohnston (talk) 02:56, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
- Jingiby (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- What I can learn by scrolling a lot of edits is that Jingiby is at war with others in the ARBMAC area and he discusses very little. A 1RR/week restriction on Jingiby on Macedonian and Bulgarian topics may be the best solution. He may not be the only one needing a restriction, but how about a new AE request if anyone believes that others ought to be included. It seems to me that User talk:Wisco2000 is getting close to a block for edit warring at Saint Naum and elsewhere. On the bright side, Wisco2000 has opened a mediation case at Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2011-09-01/ for his dispute with Jingiby and he should get some credit for that. Jingiby's own response above, referring to our 'supercilious bureaucracy', does not inspire any confidence that he intends to follow policy in the ARBMAC area. He does not show the slightest awareness that 15 blocks might be a problem. I guess the 8 different admins who issued those blocks must all have been mistaken. EdJohnston (talk) 03:10, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
Cerejota
Cerejota is warned that large changes to 9/11 related articles require consensus. No other action taken. EdJohnston (talk) 03:19, 3 September 2011 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning Cerejota
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/September 11 conspiracy theories#Remedies
Cerejotas recent edits are disruptive and exhibit a battleground mentality. As the editor has quickly removed notifications and warnings from his talk page, without changing his editing behaviour, a change in his current approach to editing appears to be unlikely. 1. Cerejota boldly adds multiple tags to the article. [146] 2. After Cerejota's edits have been reverted [147] by another editor, Cerejota again inserts the tags. [148] 3. Cerejota boldly removes large parts of the article. [149] 4. After a sysop removes the tags added by Cerejota, as an administrative action [150], and after I have reverted Cerejota's bold changes to the article [151], Cerejota re-reverts to his preferred version [152], without having achieved consensus for his change, and contrary to the WP:BRD guideline. 5. After I reverted again to the status quo ante [153], and explained to Cerejota why he needs to obtain consensus for his bold changes (see the somewhat unfriendly discussion on my talk page [154]) and my warning to Cerejota [155] on his talk page, Cerejota again reverts to his preferred version [156]. 6. After another editor advised Cerejota not to re-make his changes [157], Cerejota claims that he does not need to obtain consensus for his changes. In particular, he asserts that restoring the previous version, which leaves open to him to add a reasonable amount of tags, would grant him the right to make bold changes without consensus, instead of adding appropriate tags. [158] [159] Additional evidence: 7. Another editor reverted Cerejota's bold edit. [160] Cerejota commented on the talk page, stating "This is just delaying the inevitable," [161] which constitutes another indication of Cerejota's battleground mentality with regard to his intention to change the content of the article.
(Cerejota has removed both the notification and the warning from his talk page.)
Cerejota has stated some more detailed reasons for his edits on Talk:Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth some minutes ago. I will take part in the discussion there. However, per WP:BRD, this discussion should proceed with the status quo ante restored (possibly with tags added to the article, of course.) Despite the fact that there now appears to be an opportunity to discuss the merits of Cerejotas changes (a content issue), his behaviour should not be allowed to stand, and the status quo ante of the article should be restored pending the discussion on the talk page. Additional note: Cerejota has now adopted a somewhat different approach at the article. This may or may not be a reaction to the additional scrutiny that his editing is now receiving. While he still maintains that his previous actions would have been fully appropriate and justified, he does not act on this premise as of this moment. To avoid further similar problems in the future, it would be helpful if this AE discussion could clarify that WP:BRD does advise editors making bold changes to discuss the proposed changes immediately, if their bold edit has been reverted, instead of first re-reverting and then discussing the proposal. Cs32en Talk to me 14:08, 2 September 2011 (UTC) Comment on Cerejota's statement: Cerejota says "I missed this until someone else asked me to comment and I realized there was an actual enforcement complaint [...]" However, I have notified Cerejota about this request immediately after filing it, with a link to the section of this request. Cerejota has removed the notification some minutes after I posted it to his talk page, which is generally being interpreted as indicating that Cerejota was aware of this AE request at the time that he removed the notification. Cs32en Talk to me 14:12, 2 September 2011 (UTC) Comment on the statements by Biosketch and by ZScarpia: In my view, this AE request is about the current editing of Cerejota, not about a judgment of his overall editing habits. Currently, there is - as I see it - a real risk that Cerejota may return to a very confrontational editing style, based on an incorrect understanding of relevant policies and guidelines, unless this AE request either results in a finding that admonishes Cerejota to follow the relevant policies and guidelines (in particular, WP:BRD) in the future, or actually results in a block placed on Cerejota that prevents such behaviour for a reasonable amount of time. Given the fact that Cerejota seems to be able to change his approach based on the circumstance, I would prefer the first option, i.e. issuing a formal warning to Cerejota instead of blocking his account at this time. Cs32en Talk to me 14:18, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
Discussion concerning CerejotaStatement by CerejotaI missed this until someone else asked me to comment and I realized there was an actual enforcement complaint - I just felt it was more attempts at intimidation on the part of Cs32en - and misread the item as a threat to open enforcement, rather than an actual opening. Oh well. First of all, Cs32en is misrepresenting the edits, and even misrepresenting what I said when providing a diff. I never, in any diff, say (as he misrepresents) that I didn't need consensus. In fact, as soon as others showed up in the talk page, I stopped reversions. One person is not consensus. Two, well, there is enough for a claim. Secondly, he claims some admins did editing actions as admins. That is news to me. They neither indicated this in my talk page, nor in edit summary, nor in the talk page of the article. It is long established that unless they say so, non-tool actions of admins are the same as any other editor. His claim these were admin actions is hence a misrepresentation of what happened. This is a WP:BOOMERANG issue of WP:OWN: he refuses, after several requests to do so, to provide any substantive debate on the section, other than say "This is the consensus" - without so much as addressing the substance of the debate. I was not part or privy of that consensus, nor is "its just consensus" an acceptable answer - and he only, for example, provided links to previous discussions when prodded further. My point is that the issues are tagged should at the very least be addressed in substance in the talk page, before the tags are removed. And that the edits, if reverted, deserve more attention in the talk page than a simple revert. This is breaking the "D" in BRD. The talk page diffs clearly show my willingness to engage, and my frustration at the lack of constructive engagement on the part of Cs32en - and in fact, his request for AE is viewed as problematic by other users [165] There might be good faith in this report, but Cs32en hasn't made any good faith effort to discuss the issues raised by me in the talk page of the article, so going straight to AE without trying to resolve or at the very least explore the content issue shows an unhealthy focus on the user, rather than the content. I also started an RfC on the question, hoping to get community attention to the issue.[166] I have made a good faith effort to discuss and achieve a change in consensus, based on clearly explained issues - which have not been addressed by any editor. Cs32en is simply refusing to discuss issues of substance, and seeking to advance his editing preferences by bureaucratic means. The community should not endorse such behavior, and should close this as a frivolous enforcement action, and encourage Cs32en to engage in constructive, productive discussion, rather than WP:IDHT and WP:OWN arguments that ignore that WP:BRD exists, and that there is no final version with a privilege that precludes further discussion and change.--Cerejota (talk) 03:23, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning CerejotaComment by BiosketchIn the past few days I've had occasion to cross paths with User:Cerejota at a couple of places relating to the I/P topic area. My experience in each of those cases has been that Cerejota consistently fails to approach Wikipedia with the seriousness the Project demands of its editors. This is likely the result of his either not understanding the policies and guidelines of the Project or of habitually flouting them. At Keffiyeh, for example, he deleted an entire section of the article (twice), even though the claim put forth is sourced to Der Spiegel. His argument that the source doesn't satisfy WP:V is dumbfounding. At WP:NPOVN he describes an objection of mine as "lame" as if that's a meaningful criticism. I'm not trying to piggyback on this AE to get Cerejota in trouble – just offering some of my own personal experience.—Biosketch (talk) 11:53, 2 September 2011 (UTC) Comment by ZScarpia@Biosketch, 11:53, 2 September 2011 (UTC): Cerejota, citing the Exceptional claims require exceptional sources require exceptional sources section of the WP:V policy, quite rightly removed a statement of Biosketch's which misrepresented the provided source, a Spiegel Online, article. Biosketch wrote that the brochure by Michael Weiss said that the keffiyah has been adopted by some neo-Nazi groups "as a symbol of struggle against Israel". However, what the Spiegel article says the brochure says, is that neo-Nazis, giving old symbols including the Keffiyeh new meanings, ignore the broader meaning of the garment (which is popularly used elsewhere as a symbol of struggle against Israel) when they co-opt it as a symbol. As far as Cerejota calling an objection of Biosketch's lame on a noticeboard is concerned, I'd say that is a fairly unexceptional noticeboard behaviour. I'd hazard a guess that Biosketch has even indulged in that kind of thing himself. ← ZScarpia 13:06, 2 September 2011 (UTC) Result concerning Cerejota
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Miradre
No consensus to overturn or modify the block. NW (Talk) 22:05, 3 September 2011 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in this 2010 ArbCom motion. According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by Miradre
Reply to AtamaAtama claims that the sociobiology article mentions the race and intelligence debate when it never does. There is a hidden link to the race and intelligence article which I was not aware of since the link was hidden. Yes, there is a single mention of "ethnic nepotism" but does that mean that the whole article is under the sanctions? Another example would be the Paleoconservatism article which also has such a mention. Does this mean that everything in the Paleoconservatism article is under the sanctions? Regarding the "Criticism of evolutionary psychology" articles I repeat what I stated previously. Atama states that there is a section regarding ethnocentrism in the article. But that section states that evolutionary psychology does NOT look at ethnic differences but rather about universal human behavior. As such the article is explicitly NOT about either racial or ethnical differences. So to me it seemed that the article was safe to edit just because of this section... Now Atama is turning just this against me. Furthermore, Atama is again, as he did previously, bringing up a new accusation. He certainly did not warn me, much less allowed me to defend myself with any counter-argument, before banning me. In effect he bypassed the whole AE process and banned me due to a new accusation without allowing me (or anyone else) to present any arguments regarding his new accusation. Miradre (Talk E-mail) 22:45, 2 September 2011 (UTC) copied from Miradre's talk by 91.85.210.144 (talk) 09:04, 3 September 2011 (UTC) Statement by AtamaI was asked to close the AE request here, by Captain Occam. I was only asked to make a decision because the request had been open so long, I wasn't asked to do anything in particular. I commented in a COI noticeboard thread that Miradre's COI accusation against Mathsci and another editor were unfounded, and later warned Miradre that continuing to make allegations could be considered harassment, but that I had no intention of imposing any sanctions at the time. I don't see how that could in any way make me involved. Miradre withdrew the accusations, and the issue ended peacefully (or I thought so at least). The block is no longer than what the arbitration discussion suggested as an initial block length. I also don't see that arbitration enforcement requires asking for a consensus from other administrators before making a decision. -- Atama頭 20:49, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
Statement by EdJohnston about the appeal by MiradreAtama's closure of this AE request was well within admin discretion. Single admins are allowed to take this kind of action. Only an appeal needs to have a consensus of uninvolved editors. The topic area covered by WP:ARBR&I is characterized by extremely tenacious spokesmen for the various points of view. What Miradre called the 'long period without agreement regarding AE' could be due to the fact that admins tend to avoid areas where they expect any decisions they make to be questioned very intensively by the parties. Also the length of the thread showed that great stamina would be required by anyone try to close it. Anyone studying this appeal who is not yet familiar with Miradre's style of editing should take a look at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive163#User:Miradre reported by User:Aprock (Result: 3 month topic ban). Atama chose to impose a sanction on the ground that the material that Miradre worked on in Criticism of evolutionary psychology fell under his topic ban from race and intelligence. Regardless of how one analyzes the topic of evolutionary psychology, Miradre's general approach to collaboration on Wikipedia is so poor that a lengthy block for disruptive editing would have been equally well justified. There is doubt in my mind whether Miradre's brand of zealous advocacy has any prospect of improving the encyclopedia. (The 3RR thread I cited above shows what happens when his edits encounter opposition). If Miradre's attitude remains unchanged when his block expires, which seems likely, the community will face the question of whether there is any value in letting him return to editing. EdJohnston (talk) 01:56, 31 August 2011 (UTC) Reply to EdJohnston
Another Reply to EdJohnston
Statement by Captain OccamSince it was at my request that Atama closed the AE thread, I guess I should probably offer a comment here. I don’t have a strong opinion one way or another about Miradre’s block. I’m mostly just glad that someone finally closed the AE thread, because it had gone for around three weeks without any attention from an uninvolved admin. AE threads aren’t supposed to stay open for that long, and it’s always annoyed me how incredibly difficult it can be to get admin attention for R&I-related issues, both at AE and elsewhere. The reason I contacted Atama in particular is because he’d recently warned Mathsci for outing someone at the COI noticeboard, and one of the issues that the AE thread involved was a pair of earlier examples of outing from Mathsci: this on July 7th (indirectly revealing what he thinks is Miradre’s real name, which is listed on the main page of the DA account that Mathsci claimed belongs to Miradre), and his edit summary here on August 11th (posted in the AE thread itself, although it’s now been oversighted). Since Mathsci was the person who submitted the request about Miradre, his own behavior was subject to review there also, and I wondered whether admins’ reluctance to examine Mathsci’s behavior was part of why the AE thread wasn’t getting any attention. But since Atama had recently warned Mathsci about a more recent example of outing, I hoped Atama might not have that limitation. I admit I’m kind of disappointed that he chose to not address the issue of Mathsci’s outing when he closed the AE thread, but this is still preferable over the thread being archived while still open, which is probably what would’ve happened if I hadn’t contacted him. --Captain Occam (talk) 10:19, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
Comment on my conflict with MathsciI need to make it clear that, whatever Mathsci says about this, I am the one who’s trapped in this dispute when I don’t want to be. Mathsci’s comment below gave me the impression that he might genuinely want this conflict to end, so I made a proposal in his user talk promising to leave him alone from now on if he could promise to do the same to me. Mathsci did not reply; he simply removed the comment from his user page three minutes later with an edit summary telling me not to comment there again, along with the same accusation of meatpuppetry that he’s been making for more than eight months. This is the result I get when I try to seek a peaceful end to our conflict. If there were a way to make it so that Mathsci and I don’t have to interact with each other anymore, I would really appreciate that, but I don’t believe he’ll ever agree to it. --Captain Occam (talk) 21:43, 31 August 2011 (UTC) Response to T. CanensAs I pointed out in response to Beyond My Ken, if it weren’t for my effort to find an admin who was willing to close the first AE thread about Miradre, it probably would not have been closed at all. I don’t understand why it’s so difficult to explain how my causing that thread to finally receive a proper closure was beneficial. I had actually been hoping that some of the other editors who were frustrated by the lack of action in that thread, such as Aprock, would express some appreciation towards me for having caused a decision to finally be made in it. Does the community have so little appreciation for me that after I’ve caused an AE thread to finally be closed after it’s sat there for three weeks, the only way this action is acknowledged is with a challenge to explain why it was beneficial if I don’t want to be sanctioned? I will agree about one thing, though, which is that this year-and-a-half-old interpersonal conflict between me and Mathsci is not doing the community any good. I feel completely trapped in this conflict, because I had to endure it from January through July even when I was making a conscious effort to avoid Mathsci, and from his reaction to me in his user talk I don’t believe he has any interest in ending it. However, as I explained in NW’s user talk here, this conflict has involved far more than just AE, so an AE ban is not going to resolve it. A mutual interaction ban between him and me would resolve it, and I would appreciate that solution. I would like you or NW to please let me know whether AE can provide that: if not, I’m probably going to request it from ArbCom. --Captain Occam (talk) 06:31, 1 September 2011 (UTC) Statement by Beyond My Ken@Captain Occam: So, you went to Atama, instead of one of the hundreds of uninvolved admins, because you hoped his recent warning of Mathsci would predispose him to close the thread in a way Mathsci would not want. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:55, 31 August 2011 (UTC) Statement by MathsciCaptain Occam's comments here: Since Captain Occam has twice misused this page in matters unrelated to the subject and unrelated to any active ArbCom sanctions, I suggest that this opportunity is used to extend the indefinite topic ban on him and his girlfriend Ferahgo-the-Assassin to include an indefinite ban on participating in any requests at WP:AE related to WP:ARBR&I. Matters on WP:COIN were discussed very amicably on that noticeboard and also in private through emails with Atama at a very early stage. There are no unresolved issues. All other matters raised by Captain Occam seem to be stale and completely unrelated to this project page. There is a pattern here: Captain Occam has recently gone out of his way to press for sanctions to be imposed on me (or to place my editing record in doubt) for spurious reasons
Captain Occam has also lobbied two ex-arbitrators by email (Fred Bauder and Charles Matthews, a real life friend). Fred Bauder has informed me that he forwarded Captain Occam's email to ArbCom. I have no idea what happened with Charles, but I informed ArbCom of Captain Occam's activities. None of this looks very good to me. In particular, as has systematically been the case for the past year or so, Captain Occam's interpretation of what is happening on wikipedia seems completely divorced from reality. Mathsci (talk) 20:14, 31 August 2011 (UTC) extra material added. Mathsci (talk) 20:26, 3 September 2011 (UTC) Miradre's violation of the topic ban: "Reification of intelligence" in the two cited references, books by Lewontin and Gould, refers specifically to the debate on "Jensenism". This is precisely the topic of Race and intelligence and History of the race and intelligence controversy. Miradre discussed moving the section on Reification fallacy out of Criticism of evolutionary psychology. Miradre was repeatedly advised by me by to stop editing or discussing that section of the article,[178][179][180][181][182] following Miradre's original announcement that they were going to move that section.[183] Miradre gave evasive and defensive responses [184][185][186][187][188] and persisted in editing the article and its talk page for two further weeks. In those circumstances, and from Miradre's unwillingness to accept the advice of almost all other editors (most recently SandyGeorgia on Causes of autism), it is unlikely that the very reasonable strategy proposed by NuclearWarfare would have had any effect whatsoever. Of course faced with the choice between a one month block and a much more minor restriction applying to one article, Mirade might well opt for the latter. However, topic bans are not imposed with that kind of after-the-event negotiation in mind. (Note that dicussion/move proposals/deletion of "reification of intelligence" in Criticism of evolutionary psychology was just the first of three topic ban violations that I gave. Note also that the 70s subject of sociobiology morphed into the modern subject of evolutionary psychology (EP), something Miradre has chosen to ignore. Since all his hundreds of edits recently have been related to EP, Miradre cannot be unaware of that change in terminology.) Mathsci (talk) 06:13, 1 September 2011 (UTC) Edits by an ipsock: The recent edits to this page by 94.116.82.8 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)} and 91.85.210.144 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) are socking by Mikemikev; now blocked for one month and one week respectively. Mathsci (talk) 23:44, 2 September 2011 (UTC) Memills' misuse of the word "tag team": Last time he applied it to the three administrators Dougweller, Sandstein and Materialscientist.[189] Mathsci (talk) 14:09, 2 September 2011 (UTC) Statement by memillsI strongly support Miradre's appeal. This appears to me to be a case of a group of editors, in this case led by Mathsci, tag-teaming and wikilawyering against an editor who does not share their strong anti-biological POV in the social sciences. Secondly, I am stunned by some of the comments of the administrators Atama and EdJohnson. Their comments above suggest to me a far over-reaching interpretation of the issue at hand, and they have swallowed Mathsci's setup. In his comment just above, Mathsci is again mis-stating the issue at hand. The so called "reification fallacy" (which is actually not a fallacy if constructs are properly understood) has NOT been put forward as a criticism of evolutionary psychology, and thus its inclusion on the page in question is unjustified. Mathsci has been asked to provide a reference that links evolutionary psychology to the "reification fallacy" and he has failed to do so. Again, as I noted earlier, in my opinion, the "reification fallacy" issue is just a red herring. It is being used to attempt to harass and silence an editor. WP should not tolerate this type of malicious wikilawyering and willful mischaracterizations. What Miradre noted above is correct: there is no mention of race or intelligence on the page in question, let alone their intersection. Thus there can be no violation on the part of Miradre. Also, I think that admistrator's NW comment (below) about warning, rather than sanctioning, Miradre, is far more appropriate if by (quite a long stretch of the imagination) his edits could even possibly be seen to be in violation. Again, clearly I think they are not. Miradre is a hard working editor who adds relevant, notable, and well referenced material, and is a valuable asset to WP. If WP is to be more than just a collection of information that WP editors like and deem personally palatable, editors like Miradre should be particularly encouraged and supported. I hope some truly uninvolved administrators will take the necessary time to review this appeal, which I strongly support. Memills (talk) 04:22, 1 September 2011 (UTC) Reply to MemillsI agree completely with the above statement by memills. There are several subject experts who have commended my contributions to Wikipedia:
On the other hand, many of my critics are anthropologists or more generally opponents of biological explanations in social sciences. While there is certainly no necessary incompatibility between anthropology (or social sciences) and evolutionary theory, some important theories within anthropology (and social sciences more generally) are incompatible with evolutionary psychology theories. Such as the incest taboo and the definition of kinship being arbitrary social constructs and more generally social behavior being arbitrary social constructs on a blank slate mind with little influence from genetics. Thus, I feel this is part of a larger, ongoing conflict within the social sciences where a group of editors with a specifc anti-biololgical POV are trying to push their own POV by using wikilawyering and ultimately banning those wanting to include biological views in Wikipedia. I expect that the next step after this AE is closed will be to try to ban me indefinitely from Wikipedia while I am unable to defend myself properly. In preparation for this I am therefore pointing that I have used scholarly sources in order to add much new and interesting material and that subject experts find my contributions to Wikipedia valuable. Also since I expect an attempt to ban me indefinitely while being blocked, when I have difficulty defending myself, I will state that I will avoid any editing conflicts regarding race and intelligence as long as those pages are controlled by a dedicated group of editors with the same strong POV. The ArbCom explicitly does not judge content disputes. The subject matter and statistical arguments take a long time to grasp and in the end there are no clear answers and will likely not be such answers until we have better genetic testing. On the other hand, there is an extremely strong public opinion and prejudice against biologic explanations in this area. When the Nobel Prize winner and discoverer of DNA James D. Watson was essentially fired and forced to make a public apology for suggesting biological causes in this areas there is currently no hope for lesser persons. As such I will not just avoid editing conflicts in this area, I will actively warn other editors who attempt to introduce biological views to be extremely careful when editing this area and that they can expect wikilawyering with the goal of an indefinite ban by the group controlling these pages. Instead I will strongly suggest that they concentrate on more productive editing in other, less dangerous areas, as I intend to do. Miradre (Talk E-mail) 23:26, 1 September 2011 (UTC) copied from Miradres talk per request by 94.116.82.8 (talk) 07:31, 2 September 2011 (UTC) Statement by MaunusEvolutionary Psychology is not directly related to R&I - it is however very clearly tangentially related - for example Kevin MacDonald, a self described evolutionary psychologists have argued that Jews are characterized by specific "adaptations" including high IQ. Other Evolutionary psychologists have argued that humans have evolved specific psychological mechanisms for classifying others according to racial and ethnic principles. Miradre has shown a very clear pattern of editing articles that do not directly concern R&I, but which he uses to support arguments in the R&I arena. Memills is probably not fully aware of Miradre's editing history and his involvement with R&I topics.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 13:25, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
Reply to MaunusThis is a reply to this edit [193] by Maunus in case he changes it. Maunus here more or less confirms what I stated above in my reply to memills. This is part of a wider conflict regarding EP. Manus states that he thinks evolutionary psychology is a fringe science: "making it look as if EP is a mainstream approach to psychology and cognition" and more generally that his own POV regarding various things is correct and other POVs are fringe. Maunus also makes various unsourced and factually incorrect statements. Regarding sourced views, please again see User:Miradre/sandbox2. Miradre (Talk E-mail) 21:30, 1 September 2011 (UTC) copied from Miradres talk per request by 94.116.82.8 (talk) 07:35, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by MiradreResult of the appeal by Miradre
|
Request concerning Volunteer Marek
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Vlad fedorov (talk) 11:09, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Discretionary sanctions under WP:DIGWUREN, reinstatement of sanctions applied by the virtue of WP:EEML for Radeksz (who is Volunteer Marek currently)
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
The edits and their result clearly demonstrate advancement of single-sided POV and absense of desire to reach consent over the content of the article. Without any attempts to read the linked sources, Volunteer Marek proceeds to total elimination of the whole sections from the article. Even my former colleague Hallibut recognized the sources although qualified them as dubious.
ADD: Oh, my dear. It appears that Volunteer Marek is a new nickname for already sanctioned editor per WP:EEML Vlad fedorov (talk) 15:00, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
I don't believe that this kind of editing adheres to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. Please, stop this whitewashing of the articles. How many arbitrations we should held, until these hot guys would understand this simple idea?
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
DIGWUREN log !!! Already warned by Sandstein "not to continue nationalist edit wars by others and not to engage in a pattern of apparently nationalistically motivated name-changing".
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Re Heimstern Läufer: So, you openly admit that WP:EEML was impotent arbitration ab initio? Could you then relay on the puposes of sanctions laid? And what then was the purpose of all this show? So much words were spoken about good faith and the rest editing style, cooperation, probation term, bla-bla-bla? Oh, common... I look at Boris Stomakhin - the article for which I was one year banned. Now it contains everything I wanted to include then (and it is included by other people) and no one gives any **** about it. No one thanked me for the contribution. Oh no, I got a ban in return. Just to discover 3 years later - that everything I wrote was true. There was no BLP violation. Irony... The guys who owned WP consensus policy rule. And Mr. Heimstern Läufer says everything is fine. Welcome to USSR! Vlad fedorov (talk) 16:44, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
- Re Re Heimstern Läufer
- "I don't know. I don't care. No idea what the heck you're talking about. I don't keep up with all these disputes. so I don't know what's going on with the content here" - What are you doing there in AE thread, then, administrator? Let me remind you then on your re-elections of your duties.Vlad fedorov (talk) 17:41, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
- Re Re Re Heimstern Läufer
- Old edits? The guy is "owning" Arbcom and his WP:EEML decision. He was sanctioned for exactly the same thing he was doing before WP:EEML, the guy and his friends arranged for the parole, but he continues to do the same thing, which is clearly seen in the diffs given above. I ceased to edit at all, but he continues his POV anti-Russian/Belarusian pushing. Heimstern says he won't do nothing as admin, but he feels like he could comment on this. Circus... Vlad fedorov (talk) 17:57, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
- Re Re Re Re Heimstern Läufer
- "Neutral Heimstern's response to my question bothers me: either he doesn't appear to know how to set aside personal time for himself when working on Wikipedia matters (which is not a failing unique to him) & can suggest he may suffer premature burnout; or he has little interest in directly improving the content of Wikipedia. I don't know enough about this user to say more than this, so I'm limiting myself to just offering this observation for further discussion. -- llywrch 20:51, 14 February 2007 (UTC)" self-fulfilling prophecy. Vlad fedorov (talk) 18:10, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
- Re Re Re Re Re Heimstern Läufer
- "Remind my of my duties" is more comprehensible English, Heimstern? And all you could write is just a comment on my notebook keyboard grammar? Vlad fedorov (talk) 18:16, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
Maybe I have not read something on limitation period before filing this. The sole reason for this filing is Polonization article which is again owned by Polish nationalists just like it was before, and is completely whitewashed back to Polish POV. And EEML member returned this article to the version which was before. If POV removal of complete sections of sourced text is ok, by the guy who previously was fond of it and who was sanctioned for it, even despite limitation period lapsed - ok, maybe this report is stale for procedural reasons. (good reason for someone to remember what "merit" means). As to my block - what purpose would proposed block serve? I won't file again report on AE (anyway useless), I would read what I missed to read on these arbs. What would it prevent? I think, you just rush to punitive blocks to shut your eyes on what's still going on with article in EEML area. One more childish admin would test block button. Vlad fedorov (talk) 04:57, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Volunteer Marek
Statement by Volunteer Marek
Huh? Not only are those more than a month two months old, but there's nothing wrong with any of the edits provided. Hell, the last one isn't even mine.Volunteer Marek (talk) 11:16, 2 September 2011 (UTC) Add: Vlad subsequently changed the last diff [199].
Strange timing, this report, has. Vlad has not made any edits on Wikipedia since December 2010 [200] and now all of sudden he pops out, after 9 months, with this.Volunteer Marek (talk) 11:21, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
Note also that User:Vlad fedorov is currently topic banned from articles relating to former Soviet Republics. The Polonization article - and these edits in particular - deals with Belarus, Lithuania and Ukraine; all former Soviet Republics.Volunteer Marek (talk) 11:31, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning USERNAME
Result concerning Volunteer Marek
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
- Stale and probably even mouldy by this point, I'd say. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 16:15, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
- Re:Vlad federov's reply to me: No idea what the heck you're talking about. I don't keep up with all these disputes in the EE area (who could?), so I don't know what's going on with the content here. But I do know that AE is here to deal with currently existing behavioural problems that fall under arbitration remedies, not edits from two months ago. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 17:35, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
- "Let me remind you then on your re-elections of your duties." I'm afraid your sentence is not comprehensible English, so I'm not entirely sure what I'm being reminded of. Perhaps you simply wish to remind my of my duties as an administrator? I'm sorry to say you won't get too far, because administrators have no duties. They, like virtually every other participant on Wikipedia, are entirely volunteers. And if you think I'm doing a bad job here, surely there'll be another admin who will disagree with me. But I don't think you're going to find one willing to sanction based on old edits like these. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 17:47, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
- Re:Vlad federov's reply to me: No idea what the heck you're talking about. I don't keep up with all these disputes in the EE area (who could?), so I don't know what's going on with the content here. But I do know that AE is here to deal with currently existing behavioural problems that fall under arbitration remedies, not edits from two months ago. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 17:35, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
- Entirely stale request that borders on the frivolous. I invite Vlad federov to explain, in 500 words or less, (1) why this request is not a violation of his topic ban and (2) why he should not be sanctioned for filing a completely meritless request. T. Canens (talk) 14:23, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
- Agree with HL and TC. Complainant's responses to these comments just underlines the frivolous nature of the request. Support some sanction. Zerotalk 02:28, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- To clear out some valuable space on this noticeboard, I would support closing this with no action. Topic bans are useful if they address an actual behavior that is causing trouble. The actual problem (in this case) is a frivolous report. Short of telling him not to file reports at AE, I'm not sure of any sanction that would address the matter. If some nominal action is felt to be necessary, how about a one week block. Vlad Fedorov has done scarcely any editing since he was sanctioned in WP:ARBRB in May of 2010. So his edits don't really pose a problem at this time. His ban from editing articles about the Soviet Union and former Soviet Republics is still in place. EdJohnston (talk) 02:52, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- I'm honestly thinking about an indef block, given his history. T. Canens (talk) 03:18, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
I am raising this discussion re this. My intention is *not* to appeal sanctions agains me, but to raise questions about Purpose of Wikipedia: Wikipedia is a project to create a neutral encyclopedia. Use of the site for other purposes, such as advocacy or propaganda, furtherance of outside conflicts, publishing or promoting original research, and political or ideological struggle, is prohibited.
- WP:DR - Is it constructive to raise new RfC on a topic that was already discussed previously? Is it beneficial during RfC to mention/link previous community discussions (RfC, NPOVN), both for discussing editors and closing admins sake?
- WP:NPOV - There were at least couple of NPOV discussion raised (October 2009, August 2010). Let me quote, from here: This article really cries out for some participation by utterly uninvolved (as in "I don't give a f---- about the Gaza war") editors who are interested only in applying Wiki policy and creating a neutral article. There's some excellent stuff in this article, and overall it is informative, but it's a powder keg and the talk page is like the Second Battle of the Marne. I realize most smart editors avoid articles like this, but I thought I'd give it a try just once. --JohnnyB256 (talk) 16:55, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
So bottom line, discussing naming might appear as red herring, yet there is a wide consensus, that Wikipedia should be neutral. According to WP:DR after several 3d party opinions and couple of failed RfCs, the proper procedure is to go to WP:AE. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 12:56, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
Discussions
I was asked by Aganda to comment here:
- "Is it constructive to raise new RfC on a topic that was already discussed previously?" It can be constructive, but sometimes no (and more often so in contested topic areas, such as those that have been the subject of Arbitration). I do not have much to add to the first link, because it summarises the issue of changing consensus rather well.
- "Is it beneficial during RfC to mention/link previous community discussions (RfC, NPOVN), both for discussing editors and closing admins sake?" In my view, it would be essential to link to all previous community discussions, but those links must come with an explanation, by the proponent of the proposal, as to why the status quo should be changed, or why the result previous discussions is no longer correct (or why it never was correct, although such a scenario is rare).
- I agree with the remark by User:JohnnyB256, but I do not see what the question is.
- "After several 3d party opinions and couple of failed RfCs, the proper procedure is to go to WP:AE" strikes me as completely wrong. The purpose of this noticeboard is to action complaints about the conduct of an editor, within topic areas that have been the subject of a ruling by ArbCom. Inevitably, AE, ANI, and most other such pages are not at all part of the content-dispute resolution process, and therefore I cannot imagine how they could be the designated 'next step' of 3O or RFC. If I have misunderstood you, please clarify and I will re-think.
I hope this is helpful. AGK [•] 20:03, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
I too have been asked to comment.
- It could be counted as forum shopping or tendentious editing to repeatedly have deletion reviews. I think they should only be re-held after a long period of time, or there are strong new reasons, eg obvious notability. Many times there is no need for a DR and recreation becomes uncontroversial. It would be fair enough to link to relevant RfCs and rulings. However I appreciate the case presented to be simple and not a complex legal case reliant on minutiae of Wiki-policy. In the sort of situation you are talking about there may be topic bans or interaction bans that should be honoured.
- I agree it is not clear what the question is. I have closed a Gaza conflict RfC about whether some text about the name of a conflict should be in the lede or not. I just based the close based on the arguments supplied and did not add my own opinion or interpretation of NPOV. The discussers already talked about POVs. In a particular case it is up to the participants of an RfC to talk about whether some text is NPOV or makes up a balanced POV for the whole topic. If there is new information then an RfC could be re-held, but it should probably only be whether information is in the lede or lower in the article. (As I suspect that information will not dissappear or prove to be wrong in the first place). Since I am an uninvolved admin I am happy for a new consensus to be determined by a new discussion. I could close such a discussion, but if the same arguments take place it would likely be the same close.
Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:43, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
- Consensus can change but if RfCs on similar topics are held too often it may exhaust people's patience. The only reason that AE was involved in the issue cited by AgadaUrbanit on the Gaza War article was that an editor seemed to be making edits that ignored the result of an RfC. So long as the people on the article talk page are still talking to each other and waiting for consensus before making major changes, there should be no further need to take matters to AE. In the case of the discussion on the names for the Gaza War, it seemed surprising that some editors were so determined not to have the term 'Gaza Massacre' used. (One person in the RfC referred to the term as 'libelous.') Gaza Massacre seems to be the term preferred by the Arab side of that conflict. The other side of a war would be inclined to use a name that put their cause in the best possible light and make their enemies look bad. Finding out what names are actually in use by publications should not be a super-difficult task and we should not need frequent RfCs to sort that out. EdJohnston (talk) 01:50, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- On the topic of POV editing, although Wikipedia's purpose is to prevent POV pushing, a large number of editors have that purpose. Hopefully there is sufficient variety to even out and get a NPOV. The way we work with editors here is that if they are talking first rather than just edit warring then we do not block them. But if we took a strick approach to the purpose then we would have to block anyone editing with POV. My opinion is that we build an encyclopedia with imperfect edits and the result is better than any one's single contribution. We don't just block every editor that is not perfect. But instead use what they can contribute. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 04:26, 4 September 2011 (UTC)