Talk:Main Page

Main Page error report

To report an error in content currently or imminently on the Main Page, use the appropriate section below.

• Where is the error? An exact quotation of the text in question helps.
• Offer a correction if possible.
• References are helpful, especially when reporting an obscure factual or grammatical error.
• Time zones. The Main Page runs on Coordinated Universal Time (UTC, currently 08:04 on 8 July 2024) and is not adjusted to your local time zone.
• Can you resolve the problem yourself? If the error lies primarily in the content of an article linked from the Main Page, fix the problem there before reporting it here. Text on the Main Page generally defers to the articles with bolded links. Upcoming content on the Main Page is usually only protected from editing beginning 24 hours before its scheduled appearance. Before that period, you can be bold and fix any issues yourself.
• Do not use {{edit fully-protected}} on this page, which will not get a faster response. It is unnecessary, because this page is not protected, and causes display problems. (See the bottom of this revision for an example.)
• No chit-chat. Lengthy discussions should be moved to a suitable location elsewhere, such as the talk page of the relevant article or project.
• Respect other editors. Another user wrote the text you want changed, or reported an issue they see in something you wrote. Everyone's goal should be producing the best Main Page possible. The compressed time frame of the Main Page means sometimes action must be taken before there has been time for everyone to comment. Be civil to fellow users.
• Reports are removed when resolved. Once an error has been addressed or determined not to be an error, or the item has been rotated off the Main Page, the report will be removed from this page. Check the revision history for a record of any discussion or action taken; no archives are kept.

Administrators: Clear all reports

Errors in the summary of the featured article

Please do not remove this invisible timestamp. See WT:ERRORS and WP:SUBSCRIBE. - Dank (push to talk) 01:24, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Errors in the summary of the featured list

Friday's FL

(July 12)

Monday's FL

(July 8, today)

Errors in the summary of the featured picture

Notice to administrators: When fixing POTD errors, please update the corresponding regular version (i.e. without "protected" in the page title) in addition to the Main Page version linked below.

Today's POTD

POTD 07/08/2024 You’ve been good about indicating the size of objects in the picture of the day, but not today.by going to the details of the image, I discover "Field of view: 3.5 x 2.6 cm." You should indicate this information with the image. Wis2fan (talk) 03:30, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

• Three copy-editing suggestions. (1) Remove comma in "compact massive, and fibrous forms". (2) Remove second "found" in "It is found worldwide, mostly found in sedimentary rocks". (3) Hyphenate "Pale blue". Thanks. JMCHutchinson (talk) 07:21, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Tomorrow's POTD

• Nikola Tesla - Some minor tweaks seem necessary to this blurb...

The first sentence is not a complete one. Suggest changes (underlined) from:

"Famous photograph of Serbian-American inventor Nikola Tesla in his laboratory in Colorado Springs around 1899, supposedly sitting reading next to his giant "magnifying transmitter" high voltage generator while the machine produced huge bolts of electricity." to

This photograph of Serbian-American inventor Nikola Tesla in his laboratory in Colorado Springs in December 1899, supposedly shows him sitting reading next to his giant "magnifying transmitter" high-voltage generator while the machine produces huge bolts of electricity. JennyOz (talk) 04:45, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

At "In his Colorado Springs Notes Tesla admitted that the photo is false." change to

In his notes, compiled in Colorado Springs Notes, Tesla admitted that the photo is false. JennyOz (talk) 04:45, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

All tweaks as suggested by JennyOz above have been made in the POTD templates. --PFHLai (talk) 11:02, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Dickenson V. Alley or Dickinson V. Alley? - both spellings are in this blurb and in the file Summary. A Google search (except for this which also uses both spellings) shows a prevalence of the "en" spelling, including NYT. JennyOz (talk) 04:45, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

While we sort things out, shall we move this POTD to July 10th, Tesla's 168th birthday? --PFHLai (talk) 07:45, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Well then someone needs to make one for the 10th. Secretlondon (talk) 13:54, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

I have just moved the Tesla photo to July 10th (Template:POTD/2024-07-10), and swapped in a different photo for use tomorrow. I hope I have not messed anything up. Thanks. -- PFHLai (talk) 18:04, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

I've put in "Dickenson" with the 'e', just to be consistent. --PFHLai (talk) 17:30, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks PFHLai. Good idea to move to 10th! JennyOz (talk) 04:45, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

In the blurb, I think a better wikilink for the "magnifying transmitter" is History of the Tesla coil#Magnifying transmitter. There are more specifics there in relation to the image and the experiments conducted. Bammesk (talk) 16:33, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

The link for "magnifying transmitter" has been revised as suggested. Thanks for the suggestion. --PFHLai (talk) 16:45, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

General discussion

Excellent FA

Just want give props people doing the FAs on a really great FA on the Lynching of Jesse Washington and I'm glad it featured on the main page. A grave but moving article.--Johnsemlak (talk) 13:38, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, it was hard to write, but I am glad that I did. Mark Arsten (talk) 16:18, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Equal opportunities...

Please do feature less British and American obscurities, and please do feature more worldwide-related articles. Reading your frontpage everyday, I witness an excessive bias upon British countryside locales and American Midwest landmarks (churches, parishes, villages, bridges, wooden areas, some local celebrities). While that might be of interest to some, they are hardly worth being featured more than once or twice per year, let alone twice weekly. Please raise your objectives a little higher and feature more world-oriented articles of real cultural interest, I'm sure there's tons of them ready in the wings. Max Ventura, Italy.

. .3 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.207.232.125 (talk) 07:34, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't think people here would like more Japanese video games... –HTD 07:52, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Or video games from anywhere else. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.31.12.229 (talk) 11:50, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Hey Max! Thanks for your comments. This is a known and recognized problem at Wikipedia. Part of the issue is that the volunteers who work here tend to come from English speaking countries, so the coverage of topics of interest to English-speaking countries tends to be greater than that of countries for whom English is not a first language. This is somewhat understandable, given that this is the English-language Wikipedia. But we are interested in improving our coverage of topics from other parts of the world, and you Max, are the best person in the world to provide this. That's because you have an interest in seeing better coverage of those topics. Ultimately, all of Wikipedia exists only because someone just like you was interested in something that wasn't here already. So, feel free to get working and helping us all make Wikipedia better! --Jayron32 13:01, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Nicely explained Jayron32. If there are more featured articles with a worldwide topic focus they would be on the front page. Regards, Sun Creator^(talk) 13:15, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Jayron, you so smart and pwetttyyy...um yeah, nicely explained indeed.... >__> I'd like to add that William McKinley following Oldham is a pretty diverse line-up! And what's wrong with Japanese video-games? -.- --Τασουλα (talk) 08:53, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

• I'm assuming the TFA today is exotic enough? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 03:43, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for replying.

@ Jayron: thanks for the offering but between nagging wife and demanding kid, 2 dogs and a job I have barely time to read WP, certainly not contribute... thanks though. I do contribute to articles, editing, restructuring them, correcting some, but only sparingly.

@ Crisco: interesting subject. Sept. 16 featured article was an Indonesian singer who had been already featured in the Did You Know section a couple months ago with the very same article (which i had read back then). I really must point out another major issue here. Indonesian contributors are really VERY active, excessively so if I may. I am sure there is a lot of things goin' on in Indonesia today as it'a a huge country and a very scattered one, with a booming economy, but excuse me, I don't see nearly as many articles or "Did you know" items relating to, say, Russia, Sweden, or let's see... Mozambique, Spain, Uruguay, Japan, the Vanuatus, and so on. The point is, I think your steady contributors are a bit stuck on the same rounds over and over. Like I said the other day, "english parishes, michigan bridges, new zealand forests..." ; add to that "indonesian pop artists". Oh and I'm sorry, I forgot this: there have beeen 5 (five!) filly-related "Did You Know" items in the last 10 days! I mean, seriously now! Historical horseracing? Max Ventura, Italy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.162.4.147 (talk) 18:47, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

• Hmm? You started this with "featured", which I (and probably a few others) took as meaning TFA and perhaps POTD. Before 1740 Batavia massacre on 4 September, there had not been an Indonesia-related TFA for a couple years at least.

Regarding DYK, you don't need a plural there. Editor in the singular would be more precise. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:57, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

If you won't do the work to get material onto the front page, why are you complaining about those that do? Wikipedia doesn't have hired editors each with their own individual assigned topics, it uses volunteers who work on whatever interests them. Because of that some topics are better covered than others and the better articles get on the front page. Complaining about lack of balance isn't going to force people to work on things they aren't interested in. Balance comes when editors of varying backgrounds and diverse interests become more involved. --Khajidha (talk) 10:48, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Today 20 september: another filly is featured in the DYK. I'm sure everyone's cheering. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.191.62.86 (talk) 06:52, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm neither cheering nor complaining. If you don't like it, quit whinging about it and GET INVOLVED!!!--Khajidha (talk) 16:55, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

The "get involved" line doesn't appear to work very well at the moment here, but there's a bbc article.. somewhere.., so the OP may have a point, if not the most articulate. Please stop replying with "get involved", when potentially valid concerns are made. Saying nothing is also a possibility (yes, I see my hypocrisy...). Perhaps DYK should introduce a cap to submissions, one per X months per editor, or some such crap. 46.115.53.165 (talk) 21:07, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

• One per X months? Erm, you may need to learn a bit about the nomination side of DYK... — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:48, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Have you counted the number of articles about soccer players? politicians? mushrooms? old houses? songs? episodes of TV programmes? cantatas? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.31.12.229 (talk) 01:16, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

France

France must have become an obscure country now. No one is complaining about the "over"-linking on ITN..... --70.31.12.229 (talk) 10:59, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

We link when the story has something directly to do with the country and in this case it does. — foxj 12:51, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia languages section

Why a few language names begin with a capital letter (Deutsch, Nederlands, Esperanto) while all the rest with a lower case letter? Shouldn't this be fixed? Also the more than # articles ranking seems arbitrary 750K, 150K, 50K...why not 250K, 500K and 1M then? --Itemirus (talk) 14:25, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

The word "Deutsch", which means "German", is capitalized in the German language. The similar word "français" isn't capitalized in French. Similarly for other languages. The limits of 750K etc. are regularly adjusted upwards as Wikipedia grows. Otherwise, all the languages would gradually move to the top line. Art LaPella (talk) 14:39, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

That argument about capitalisation might make sense if the names appeared in a sentence, but they don't: it is a bulleted list. In bulleted lists, each item is grammatically independent. In the English language, names of mammal species are not treated as proper nouns, and are not capitalised in a sentence, however, in a bulleted list, they would usually have capitals. Kevin McE (talk) 18:18, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

The number groups are also adjusted to avoid having too small a group. For instance, there is only one language's Wikipedia (Chinese, if you must know) with more than 500k articles yet fewer than 750k. Lumping the 6 Wikipedias with 750k - 1M articles into the 500k list seems to make people think we are somehow slighting these languages by not putting them in their "proper" group but leaving a 500k "group" that only includes one member makes the list sloppier. Therefore, even though some might think we are slighting the Chinese wikipedia, that one is included in the 250k+ list. --Khajidha (talk) 17:14, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

While it may be formally correct, I feel that using capital letters just for a few languages is aesthetically unappealing --Itemirus (talk) 10:25, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Kevin - this is something that could only be fixed by changing the Mediawiki files themselves - that is, an admin couldn't sort them. This was also discussed only a month or so ago (and is likely in a recent archive). — foxj 10:29, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Sorry: that is at most a minor obstruction. If there were a desire to change, it could be simply handled by using [http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki Deutsch] which displays identically. That is no reason at all. Kevin McE (talk) 11:40, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Kevin is correct on this point. If deemed preferable, we could simply switch back to the type of manual coding used until June 2010. —David Levy 12:18, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

While David is correct it could be done in a different way, note that Kevin's suggestion Deutsch, is most definitely not ideal. As the example shows, it does not show up the same (the external link arrow is clearly visible) but more importantly, as a hard coded external link it forces the user to a specific variant of the site, the unsecure site, whereas with if it's done properly either as now or as David is suggesting, the wikimedia software is usually smart enough to direct the user to the variant most like what they're currently using (so if they're using the secure site, they will go to the secure Deutsch site). Nil Einne (talk) 09:34, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

We've gone through this issue before. The languages are spelled to the rules of each language, so capitalising them would only work in the English language. I can't see any issue with the capitalisation of words which wouldn't be capitalised in that language doktorb _words^deeds 10:41, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Is your contention that common nouns in all those languages are generally given lower case when presenting them in a bulleted list? I do not believe that to be the case, and would be intrigued to see your evidence. For my part, I would offer the es.wikipedia and fr.wikipedia versions of this very list in contradiction.

You are also insisting an extreme form of inconsistency: that words in the same line of text should be treated according to the rules of several languages.

You cannot apply sentence case to something that is not written in sentences. But to the extent that it is presented in a sentence, with an introduction to describes the list and a colon separating the two parts, that sentence is in English, so the only consistent approach would be to name the languages in English, and with respect for English grammar rules re the naming of languages. Which would probably better serve the readers of a page in English. Kevin McE (talk) 11:40, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

As discussed in the past, these links exist primarily for the benefit of the various languages' readers, so switching to their English names would be unhelpful. (If you were viewing the Korean Wikipedia's main page, which text would you find more useful: "영어" or "English"?) —David Levy 12:18, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

If I were reading the home page of Korean Wikipedia, I would probably already have at least some knowledge of Korean, or the information that it is a list of wikipedias grouped according to the number of articles would be lost on me. If not, suddenly seeing my native tongue in the middle of a set of characters that I cannot understand at all informs me of nothing. The purpose of an encyclopaedia is to inform the reader, not the random uncomprehending visitor: for the reader of en.wiki, it is informative to know what the other large wikipedias are. Those who are on the English wikipedia, unless by pure accident, are likely to be able to recognise the name of their own language in English, just as any English speaker who cannot at least recognise 영어 is unlikely to navigate their way to ko.wiki. Kevin McE (talk) 20:44, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

But as an encyclopedia, Wiki is here to inform and educate. I had no idea what the Korean word for "the Korean language" was until visiting here, and that's how it should be. What kind of project would we be if we "dumbed down" the language bar just for the benefit of English speakers? The language bar acts as a very clear indication that Wikipedia is a truly world-wide project, with gateways into the world through links in the languages of the world. I can't see how anything is improved, or how anyone is satisfied, if we chose to change francais into French. doktorb _words^deeds 20:57, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Q: "What kind of project would we be if we "dumbed down" the language bar just for the benefit of English speakers?"

A: One that caters to English speakers.

The main page of Wikipedia has no brief to teach other languages: its function is to inform (mainly English speaking) readers about Wikipedia, and, in that section, about Wikipedia projects in other languages. At present, it obfuscates that purpose. Using the English language in an English language encyclopaedia is not dumbing down: it is communicating clearly, the most basic requirement of an encyclopaedia.

And indeed, how does the main page tell you that 한국어 is Korean for Korean? At best, it tells you that it is the native word for a moderately widely spoken language.

For what it is worth, the Main Page of ko.wikipedia gives the name of the other wikis in both Korean and the language in question: at least 50% of the way to a much more sensible situation.

The relevant part of our Manual of Style obliges us to bear in mind the needs of page users with disabilities, but not those who do not speak English (yet alone those who do not even speak enough English to recognise the name of their language). How clearly are these non-English names for non-English languages rendered by speech synthesisers?

Using the list of other wiki main pages listed in the left margin of en.wiki's home page, where I can identify an equivalent list, 18 out of 23 non-English projects name the other languages in that project's "home" tongue, 4 of them uniquely, the remainder, like the Korean example mentioned already, in giving both languages. And of the other 5 that do use the various native languages alone, none of them are inconsistent as to whether the language names are capitalised or not in the way that en.wiki is.

The reason for them being in other languages keeps changing: that suggests to me that the reason has never been really rationalised. Kevin McE (talk) 21:09, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

The reason for them being in other languages allows people to see very clearly that the links will take them to an article in that language. It would be a bit odd if the link wasn't in the language, it's there to direct and to inform. I know that accessibility directs us to look at inclusion, but that doesn't mean we have to turn en.wiki into Simple English, does it? We have accepted for years that an interwiki link respects the language of the project to which the link points. The Wikipedia LOGO respects the symbols of the international projects. The language bar would be devalued if it were entirely in English, it would represent the English project 'lording it' over the other projects. doktorb _words^deeds 21:48, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

I see no reason to assume that using the English language is turning en.wiki into simple.wiki: it seems to me to be treating it as en.wiki.

The reader of en.wiki is likely to be able to interpret that links that are under a heading Wikipedia languages and given what they can easily recognise as the names of languages (easily recognised because they are in the language that the reader of the page can read) will be links to wikis in those languages. The sentence at the top of the list of languages ought to give them the clue if they have not gathered it already (and could be rephrased if the current formulation of that sentence is not clear enough). And what's more, if they choose to follow it out of curiosity, they will know what language they are looking at.

Your fear of being seen as taking a position of superiority strikes me as odd: do you really believe that users of other languages are offended by en.wiki using English?

None of your comments provides any reason not to do what more than 60% of other language's home pages do of showing both languages: if you really think that the main page of wiki ought to teach readers what the Korean for Korean, or the Serbian for Serbian, is, then you should be all in favour of that option. Kevin McE (talk) 22:06, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Q: "What kind of project would we be if we "dumbed down" the language bar just for the benefit of English speakers?" A: One that caters to English speakers.

The Wikipedia languages section primarily caters to readers of languages other than English (some of whom also read English, of course).

At present, it obfuscates that purpose.

The section's primary purpose always has been to assist readers of other languages.

Using the English language in an English language encyclopaedia is not dumbing down: it is communicating clearly, the most basic requirement of an encyclopaedia.

The section is intended to communicate clearly with readers of the languages listed.

And indeed, how does the main page tell you that 한국어 is Korean for Korean?

Hover.

For what it is worth, the Main Page of ko.wikipedia gives the name of the other wikis in both Korean and the language in question: at least 50% of the way to a much more sensible situation.

We previously used that format. It was deemed superfluous (because the links are of little value to persons other than the languages' readers) and abandoned to conserve space.

The relevant part of our Manual of Style obliges us to bear in mind the needs of page users with disabilities, but not those who do not speak English (yet alone those who do not even speak enough English to recognise the name of their language).

So...screw them?

How clearly are these non-English names for non-English languages rendered by speech synthesisers?

I don't know, but any problems would extend to every page containing interlanguage links.

I'll note that when we redesigned the main page in 2006, a blind editor kindly informed us of the issues present in his screen reader (a relatively old version of the software, as I recall), which were then addressed via code modifications.

The reason for them being in other languages keeps changing:

Because someone cited a side benefit?

that suggests to me that the reason has never been really rationalised.

It's been discussed quite thoroughly. If you don't wish to take my word for it, feel free to search the archives. —David Levy 22:51, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

If I were reading the home page of Korean Wikipedia, I would probably already have at least some knowledge of Korean, or the information that it is a list of wikipedias grouped according to the number of articles would be lost on me.

"At least some knowledge of Korean" doesn't guarantee comprehension of the word "영어".

But note that I deliberately wrote "viewing", not "reading". The English Wikipedia's main page is easily reached by persons with little or no understanding of written English.

If not, suddenly seeing my native tongue in the middle of a set of characters that I cannot understand at all informs me of nothing.

If you wanted to reach English content and saw an "English" link among the incomprehensible text, you wouldn't follow it?

The purpose of an encyclopaedia is to inform the reader, not the random uncomprehending visitor:

The Wikipedia languages section primarily serves readers of languages other than English (some of whom also read English, of course).

Those who are on the English wikipedia, unless by pure accident,

Some people arrive by pure accident. —David Levy 22:51, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

David, your habit of trying to analyse a discussion by treating individual clauses in isolation rarely does merit to the argument being presented. Largely because of the brevity such a format imposes, you come across as being argumentative, with no argument being put forward; and you make assertions with no substance behind them: I know well enough from other discussions that you are more than eloquent enough not to need to give such an impression. Who says that that section exists primarily for the users of other languages, and why should English language users not be served by it? Your dismissal of MoS comes across as irresponsible, and I suspect that most internet users, if finding themselves by some strange aberration on a page in a language so obscure to them that they would not even recognise the name of their own language, would simply close the page or employ the "back one page" button. Alt text is not available to all users, and one should not have to employ mouse movements around the page to guess what things in the wikipedia of your mother tongue mean. Kevin McE (talk) 23:32, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry that you dislike my style of reply. Feel free to ignore my messages (including this one).

Who says that that section exists primarily for the users of other languages,

...but if you're going to ignore them, please don't also respond to them.

"It's been discussed quite thoroughly. If you don't wish to take my word for it, feel free to search the archives."

In your view, if someone is unable to comprehend a language's native name/script, of what value is the underlying link to him/her?

and why should English language users not be served by it?

I've made no such claim.

Your dismissal of MoS comes across as irresponsible,

I've done no such thing.

I addressed your accessibility concern, which I take seriously. Apart from that, what do you expect? For the main page to be 100% consistent with the style conventions applied to articles?

and I suspect that most internet users, if finding themselves by some strange aberration

You've never arrived at a webpage written in a language that you couldn't read?

on a page in a language so obscure to them that they would not even recognise the name of their own language, would simply close the page or employ the "back one page" button.

Exactly. We don't want people to do that. We want to direct them to Wikipedias written in the languages that they read. —David Levy 00:54, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Are such users really likely to scroll all the way (3 page downs) to the bottom of a page of text that is sheer gobbledygook to them in the hopes of finding this one word they recognize? --Khajidha (talk) 13:28, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

That depends on whether they're familiar with the convention (common to many Wikipedias and other Wikimedia Foundation projects) of placing such a section at the bottom of the page. If they aren't, they might simply use the browser's search function.

Of course, the section is intended to serve the languages' readers in general, including those with varying degrees of English proficiency (most of whom aren't reaching the page accidentally). —David Levy 14:01, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

If they are familiar with that convention, wouldn't they already know how to get to their language's wikipedia? If they are not familiar with that convention, then why would they search for a word in their own language on this page? Wouldn't they simply navigate away? --Khajidha (talk) 14:18, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

If they are familiar with that convention, wouldn't they already know how to get to their language's wikipedia?

Probably.

If they are not familiar with that convention, then why would they search for a word in their own language on this page? Wouldn't they simply navigate away?

Possibly. It might depend on whether they're aware of the WMF projects' multilingual nature (i.e. that such a link is likely to exist).

But again, we've delved into an area outside a majority of the section's usage. I noted that "some people arrive by pure accident", but I'm not suggesting that this describes most users' experience. —David Levy 14:45, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

You've missed my point. Those that know to look for it don't need it while those that need it don't know to look for it. Who exactly is it there for? --Khajidha (talk) 17:29, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Are you reading my replies? —David Levy 19:55, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

I'll give a perfect of example of why those interwiki links should be in the native script/language. As part of my work on Commons, I occasionally find that I need to do something with an image that's only used on a non-English Wikipedia. If that happens to be a language that uses a non-Latin script, there's no way I'm going to be able to easily find a matching article in English (I'd have to hover over each one to see the URL or alt text). —howcheng {chat} 01:38, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Indeed they should be. I've done interwiki work as well, and it's immensely helpful to have language names displayed in their native form. Yes, English screen readers won't recognise most characters outside of Latin-1 (see point 2) and read them as question marks, but if they really want to read another language, they can just install another language version of their speech synthesiser, which is becoming increasingly straightforward these days. BTW, I'm the screen reader user mentioned above who pointed out an accessibility problem with the then-bnew Main Page design back in 2006. Graham87 07:00, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I note that changes have been made in the right direction regarding the capitalization of the names of the various languages so that we now have Français and Español for example. Interestingly, the same capitalization is reproduced in all the other language wikis on their main pages. But I'm intrigued to see we still have "norsk (bokmål)" and "‪norsk (nynorsk)" in lower case although there is no reason for this. Just search some Norwegian pages and you will see that capitalization in lists is the same as for other Scandinavian languages such as Dansk (Danish) and Svensk (Swedish). So this at least should be changed, if only in the interests of consistency. I suggest, by the way, "Norsk (bokmål)" and "Norsk (nynorsk)" rather than "Norsk (Bokmål)" and "Norsk (Nynorsk)". --Ipigott (talk) 14:52, 24 September 2012 (UTC)‬

I note that changes have been made in the right direction regarding the capitalization of the names of the various languages so that we now have Français and Español for example.

I assume that you're referring to the interlanguage links appearing in the sidebar, which are intended to appear with uppercase first letters.

But I'm intrigued to see we still have "norsk (bokmål)" and "‪norsk (nynorsk)" in lower case although there is no reason for this.

This is a known bug. —David Levy 15:02, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your rapid response, David, and for adding a query to 37705. You are completely right in your assumption. I did not specifically mention the precise subject as I thought that was how this whole discussion started. I had in any case noticed myself not too long ago that the languages (at least those in Latin and Cyrillic script) listed on the LHS of the main page varied between upper and lower case. As for the two Norwegian variants, I don't think it would matter too much if we had "Norsk" (Bokmål) and "Norsk" ((Nynorsk). Another option would be to list them as "Norsk" (the usual language of reference) and "Nynorsk". Fortunately they would continue to come together in the list anyway. --Ipigott (talk) 15:30, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

To be clear, the formatting is determined via the MediaWiki software; it isn't a decision made at Wikipedia. —David Levy 16:14, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

A P.S. to the above. Why not just provide a link to "Norsk" (the Bokmål wiki of course) as Nynorsk has less than 90,000 articles while Bokmål has over 350,000. --Ipigott (talk) 15:45, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

On what basis? We currently list Wikipedias containing 50,000 or more articles (provided that certain qualitative criteria are satisfied). And removing one of the two Norwegian Wikipedia links wouldn't address the capitalization problem. —David Levy 16:14, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Georgian does not seem to be included although it has more depth and generally seems to be more deserving than Nynorsk. I suggested simply using "Norsk" without "bokmål" as that is the standard language of Norway (and in fact covers both Bokmål and Riksmål as is explained on their main page). In the case of French and Spanish, we use just Español (rather than "Español (Castillano)") and Français although dialects such as Catalan, Gallego and Occitan are also included. Using just "Norsk" would also solve the capitalization problem as only one word would need to be listed. And if Nynorsk were to be listed too, it could simply be included as "Nynorsk" (just one word). Hope all this is now clear. --Ipigott (talk) 17:24, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Georgian does not seem to be included although it has more depth and generally seems to be more deserving than Nynorsk.

Please see Talk:Main Page/Archive 165#Put Georgian language wikipedia into More than 50,000 articles section!.

Using just "Norsk" would also solve the capitalization problem as only one word would need to be listed. And if Nynorsk were to be listed too, it could simply be included as "Nynorsk" (just one word).

Again, the formatting is determined via the MediaWiki software; it isn't a decision made at Wikipedia. —David Levy 19:55, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

David, I'm not sure if you saw the discussion earlier this year where this was raised. I would try and find it in the archives, but I'm meant to be on a wikibreak. Long story short, my view is that links in other languages (wherever they appear) should be provided in both languages. This is a simple accessibility requirement (linguistic accessibility), keeping the entirety of what is provided accessible to all, rather than saying 'this part of the page is for English readers, and this part of the page is for others'.

Hovering is a compromise solution, but it doesn't currently work on the main page, try it and you will see what I mean (the mouse-ups work on the 'Wikipedia languages' section on the main page, but not on the sidebar interwiki links). And hovering has its own accessibility issues, as not everyone can hover a mouse cursor. When hovering over the interwiki links on article pages, you get shown the name of the link in the language being linked to, but no indication (if you are a non-native speaker) what the language is. My basic objections to how interwiki links are currently handled on the Main Page and on articles is that it turns part of the page being viewed into a 'black box', that English-speaking readers are unable to understand.

Howcheng makes a very valid point that when he is working on non-English wikipedias, the links back here are helpful to find the English article. However, the converse also applies. When I'm reading an article on the English Wikipedia, sometimes I will want to see the article in another language (e.g. if I am reading about a historical French person that we have only a stub on, I might want to see if the French Wikipedia article has more details). The assumption is that I will need to know the name of that language in order to find the link (for French, I can do that, for other languages less so).

This is a prime example of a language barrier being erected, rather than broken down. The standard approach when you may have readers of both languages using links is to use both languages. Quite why Wikipedia elects not to do this, I've never understood. The argument tends to go "if you don't know the name of the language then there is no point you trying to read the article", which is an incredibly patronising argument (checking birth years for example, and other basic data such as name spellings, can be done with little language skills).

The other reason to have the interwiki links in both languages is to allow people to see which languages have corresponding articles (I'm aware this is an issue for interwiki links in general, not the main page, but bear with me). Currently, if you are interested in seeing what the other languages are, you have to open up a page that provides a translation, or know what fr and de and so on mean, or use a script that converts the links for you. To me, that is missing a trick. Having the English next to the native language will teach people what these links are, as opposed to incomprehension and moving on with a shrug of the shoulders (mentally saying 'it would be nice to try and work out what those links mean, but there is a language barrier there that has not been made accessible').

I've now looked up the previous discussion I was thinking of, which is at Talk:Main Page/Archive 169#Languages are not in English... Some of what I said there applies here as well. In particular, see the gadgets and scripts bit at the end, and pages such as User:Equazcion/SidebarTranslate (look at the image there to see the functionality provided), a gadget on the Portuguese wiki (not sure how to link to that), a mediawiki page at mw:Universal Language Selector, and the bit about interwiki links at Template:Wikipedia languages/core/doc. There are clearly enough technical possibilities around for something to be done to allow interwiki links to be accessible to both native language readers and the readers of the language the wiki is in, but it probably needs someone to pull it all together to allow a fully informed discussion. I may do that after my wikibreak, which I should return to now. At the very least (given the regularity with which this comes up), something should be added to the FAQ pointing people to the various gadgets and scripts that are available. Carcharoth (talk) 06:57, 25 September 2012 (UTC) On re-reading this, I see that I've talked mainly about the sidebar, not the languages section, apologies for that, but the point raised earlier about how the mouse-up works on the main page 'other languages' section, but not on the sidebar, is one that should be addressed, as should the one about a FAQ entry for this - I will try and do that when I get back, but if anyone else wants to do so in the meantime, that would be really good - Mediawiki:Sidebar and Wikipedia:Main Page FAQ I think are the locations. Carcharoth (talk) 07:04, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Penis Park on front page

not productive, and already moved off the main page of its own accord
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Really? ugh... I then go to Phallic architecture, it's basically pictures of anything that is in the shape of a stick is a dick... yeah yeah yeah don't start spamming "WP:NOCENSOR !!!" i know, perverts — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.73.114.111 (talk • contribs) 15:15, 22 September 2012‎ Anything which is cited as such in reliable sources, not everything.. The desire to perv at penis shaped architecture was about as far from the reason for creating it as you can get. Sheeks if wanting to perv at something was the purpose then I'd have created Island of 1000 titties.♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:14, 22 September 2012 (UTC) I've already called my estate agent. GRAPPLE X 17:59, 22 September 2012 (UTC) I bet if it was my boobs on the front page you wouldn't be moaning. (So you know yet you still looked/complained? Sounds like you're the one with the issues here) --Τασουλα (talk) 18:32, 22 September 2012 (UTC) This discussion is pointless considering that the original post never suggested taking action about the content but is instead instead just moaning about it... I suggest we close this conversation before it devolves into more aimless moaning at one another. –Prototime (talk · contribs) 18:42, 22 September 2012 (UTC) Since this has already moved off the main page (not because of this complaint, but just because it was due to), I am closing this. --Jayron32 02:45, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Possible vandalism?

Can anyone explain why "Day of Baltic Unity" directs to "Battle of Saule?" 72.94.107.27 (talk) 23:39, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

The day is a commemoration of the battle; the article on the battle mentions that the date was chosen for this. GRAPPLE X 23:41, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Alas, there is no Day of Baltic Unity article, nor is the day listed in Public holidays in Latvia or Public holidays in Lithuania, so the battle article is the best one to list. —howcheng {chat} 01:43, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Featured Article image

Am I the only one who thinks this image is a little too graphic for the main page? 132.162.114.207 (talk) 01:07, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Probably. These things are scheduled by community discussion (WP:TFAR if you'd like to join in in future), and while it was brought up as possibly "iffy" it was widely accepted as relevant to the article and educational in nature (that said, I do believe there are options to manually disable images if you'd like to avoid seeing it again). GRAPPLE X —Preceding undated comment added 01:10, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Yep. Help:Options to hide an image. GRAPPLE X 01:14, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

No, probably not. But it's not going to be swapped out. It's the most relevant image for the article, and its encyclopedic nature is hard to pass up. -- tariqabjotu 01:17, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

I suspect that a lot of people will find this image disturbing, as do I, but I don't think it is "too graphic" for the main page. There are other images that are probably more graphic, this was chosen as a less disturbing one. This is an article about a disturbing topic, and the image helps educate people about the horror of the event. In a sense, we'd be doing a disservice if we make the history of lynching seem less objectionable than it really was. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:47, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

No, I definitely do not want my young grandchildren seeing this image. First time I have had to do this to a Wikipedia main page.-- Salazar45 (talk) 07:26, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Meh; I think it would do them a world of good; teach them what sort of barbarity earlier generations go up to. Break the cycle, as it were ;) Br'er Rabbit (talk) 07:34, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

So Salazar45, you don't want your grandchildren to see (and I mean see) the real story? The photograph is not just a random illustration. It's a critical part of the story. Without the photographs there would have been no story. (Have you read it?) HiLo48 (talk) 08:46, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

• I think that's kinda the idea. If one isn't disturbed by the image, you're probably beyond fucked. I would expect any decent person to be disturbed by it. That's the point of such an image. --Jayron32 02:55, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

  That may be the point of the image, but it's not the point of our Main Page. Of course, I thought it was ridiculous to have an image of the finger on the Main Page but WP:NOTCENSORED fan girls prevail over commonsense daily. There is a difference between ensuring we do not suffer from censorship and being intentionally provocative simply because you can point to a policy that justifies the most underlying aspects of the behavior. --auburnpilot talk 03:07, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

  Is the main page not supposed to feature articles about bad things? Is only butterflies and sunshine supposed to be the subject of quality articles at Wikipedia? Can we not be proud of quality writing about articles of bad things? --Jayron32 03:42, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

  In my experience, you are far too intelligent to pose such utterly stupid questions. At no point did I suggest any of those things, but we both know that. Or should I play the same game? Do you, Jayron, suggest we place pornographic videos on the Main Page with the videos on autoplay? Do you believe we should have images of people having their heads splattered against pavement prominently displayed on the Main Page? You support WP:NOTCENSORED, right? If Murder ends up on the main page, we obviously must have an image depicting a disturbing murder! That's the point! Murder is disturbing! Don't play dumb and I won't either. I don't particularly care enough to fight for the image of the lynching to be removed, but I will register my opinion whenever I see fit. --auburnpilot talk 05:04, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

  "Muder" could easily be conveyed in an informative manner in a number of ways; my own personal take would be to use something from classical literature or Shakespeare (Hamlet/Macbeth particularly) to convey a famous murder without showing a graphic corpse. However, "the lynching of Jesse Washington" really isn't conveyed properly without actually depicting the lynching of Jesse Washington. I wouldn't support, for example, a frank depiction of a penis in a main page blurb for "anatomy" or "organ"; but I would if the article were "penis". It's a case of how informative the image is to the context at hand; this one is hugely relevant, but the same image would probably be out of the question if the article were simply "Lynching in the United States", in which case one which depicted a much less mutilated victim might be a more preferable approach as it would still convey a lynching. This image conveys this lynching, and it does so clearly and informatively; which is why it's important to consider an image's contextual relevance when invoking/decrying WP:NOTCENSORED. GRAPPLE X 05:13, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

  I would have said what GRAPPLE said, but much less intelligently. My answer to AuburnPilot is what GRAPPLE said. --Jayron32 13:31, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

  As I recall, the "finger" image evidently was placed on the main page in the context of "we can get away with this, so let's do it" (which I don't condone). Conversely, the current TFA image was selected because it illustrates the subject in an encyclopedic manner. —David Levy 03:56, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

• My opinion: The image is definitely too graphic and too disturbing to be on the main page. I appreciate that lynching is a very bad thing, and that Wikipedia is not censored, but images of this type, while appropriate within the article itself, do not belong on Wikipedia's main page. An analogy: Graphic and disturbing images may be included in books about serious subjects, but are not printed on the front cover of those books. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 03:15, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

  You mean books like these? —David Levy 03:56, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

  Thanks, but I still think images of this type should not be put on the main page. Providing readers with a positive experience when they come to the main page does not mean that Wikipedia is being censored -- whether those readers are children or adults. If readers click through to the article itself, they will see the historically important photograph of the awful act that was committed. As for editors such as myself commenting now, it's hardly surprising. The number of editors, and readers, who see the main page is huge, compared to the number of editors who participate in the earlier discussions. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 12:47, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

  Thanks, but I still think images of this type should not be put on the main page. Providing readers with a positive experience when they come to the main page does not mean that Wikipedia is being censored -- whether those readers are children or adults.
  We routinely illustrate TFA with a free image depicting the subject or an element thereof (assuming that one is available). As HiLo48 noted, in this instance, the image is especially significant. How, in your view, would removing it from the main page — on the basis that it's unpleasant — not constitute censorship? —David Levy 16:38, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

• I understand Wikipedia is not censored, but common people, that's just a bit too much. Why not change it to the image of the people gathering around the tree or something? (On a side note, it took may wayyy too long to figure out how to edit this thing. Man, it's been a while since the good old days...) All the best,--134.126.193.65 (talk) 03:18, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

  I have a much easier time understanding complaints from users who don't realize that Wikipedia isn't censored. These "I understand Wikipedia is not censored, but come on, we need to censor this" messages baffle me. —David Levy 03:56, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

  And this is exactly why I left this place.-134.126.193.65 (talk) 15:18, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

  Then why are you still here? —David Levy 16:38, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

• Here comes the one eternal peanut gallery once again, come to pick apart yet another controversial image pick, and then fade away when it serves its time on the page and is replaced, accomplishing nothing. ResMar 03:41, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

  The bottom line is that the article was discussed at WP:TFA/R, including the question of the image. This is the community process for determining many of the articles which appear on the main page. The article was then scheduled, following positive reaction of the community towards using the article on that date, and most were OK with the image. Admission was free: in other words, the involved people looked at it and considered the matter, and anyone was free to participate in that discussion. It is a disturbing article. It deserves a disturbing image.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:47, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

  Yeah, what he said. ^^^^ --Jayron32 03:49, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

  What both of you've said; and Mark Arsten. The article is about a lynching; obvious picture is obvious. Br'er Rabbit (talk) 04:23, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

• A few brief comments. Clearly there was consensus to include the image, but if (over the course of the day) consensus changes in the other direction, that should be respected as well. Another point is that including the image in the article and on the main page are two separate issues (I mention this because not everyone coming to such discussions realises this). Finally, there are cases where even encyclopedic images are not used (e.g. for relatively recent events where the deceased has living relatives, newspapers sometimes chose to publish pictures of the body only with permission of the family - this normally doesn't apply to encyclopedias which write on historical topics, but does apply to Wikipedia as it includes articles about more recent events than some encyclopedias would - here, historical distance from an event 96 years ago renders this aspect less relevant). It is always a balancing act. Where objections can reasonably been foreseen, a prepared summary of consensus and how it was reached (not just the discussion itself) should be available to be pointed at. One final point: I would hope, out of respect for the topic at hand, that those following this discussion help ensure that it doesn't become too fractious. Carcharoth (talk) 06:04, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

  A discussion held beforehand includes a cross-section of Wikipedians with no particular bias other than a desire to participate in the FA process. Conversely, a discussion held when the blurb is live is invariably skewed toward persons with complaints (who are far more likely than others to come out of the woodwork to comment), with most disagreement confined to those watching the page. —David Levy 16:38, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

• How many of the objectors have actually read the story and understood the significance of the photo? The fact that the incident was photographed is a critical part of the story. It was because the general public saw the pictures that the public view of lynching changed. Hiding such pictures now would remove a major part of the story, and perhaps make lynching seem less horrible than it really was. HiLo48 (talk) 06:17, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
• My opinion. When the media discusses self-immolation, they almost always show Thich Quang Duc. The image is shocking, disturbing, visceral. It reminds us of the deepest and most horrific emotional charge which led to that protest. When we have an article about lynching, and a specific case, it's only natural and right that we have the image to remind us of the places we humans have walked along in the great and gruesome path of history that brings us into 2012. It's a shocking and disturbing image and it's only right that we record both the text and the imagery of such an event. This isn't just a case of "Wikipedia isn't censored", it's a reminder that, as an encylcopedia, all human life is here. It would be a dereliction of duty to remove or censor it. doktorb _words^deeds 07:36, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree, i think it is too graphic. It shouldn't be censored, it should just not be on the front page. Some children are at the age where reading wikipedia is very useful but seeing these images are not appropriate. Putting them in the linked article at least gives a better chance for some parental supervision. Rcclh (talk) 12:27, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

I second that opinion. It's absolutely right that Wikipedia should deal with issues like this in an uncensored way in an article and I'm introducing my kids to subjects like this at their own pace. Putting images like this at the public gateway to Wikipedia, however, makes that in practise more difficult.

I agree. This was not a typical lynching, but a public torture "the executioners attempted to keep him alive to increase his suffering". Salazar45 (talk) 13:26, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

As the article says "Some people who witnessed the lynching recorded persistent nightmares and psychological trauma". The image causes a similar (though, of course, much smaller scale) trauma in unprepared younger readers (and I'm talking primarily about the under tens here) that ultimately makes it more difficult to explore the important issues contained in the article with them. Blakk and ekka 12:46, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. Just because we can do something, doesn't mean we should. Hot Stop (Edits) 13:10, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Just because we could give in to calls for censorship, doesn't mean we should. The photograph is vital to the story. Anyone who lets an under-10 surf the internet - or just Wikipedia - without supervision and forward planning, is taking a risk. I do not want people to be less shocked by the history of racial violence in the United States. Wikipedia is not a nanny, nor a censor. AlexTiefling (talk) 13:20, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm not saying it should be censored, i'm saying it shouldn't be on the front page, and i'm not saying children should use wikipedia without supervision, i'm saying putting it in the article gives parents a better chance of supervision. Rcclh (talk) 13:36, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia WAS the home page on all of our computers, no longer. Salazar45 (talk) 14:22, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

If you were under the mistaken impression that Wikipedia is "family-friendly", it's good that you've realized your error. —David Levy 16:38, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Just because we can do something, doesn't mean we should.

As noted above, this is not such an instance.

On an earlier occasion, editors of DYK went out of their way to include a photograph of a gesture widely considered obscene. They could have illustrated a different item without reducing the section's encyclopedic value, but they deliberately selected an image that they knew would offend many people.

If today's featured article were Photography, the image would be inappropriate. But it isn't. It's Lynching of Jesse Washington. We include the photograph not "because we can", but because it illustrates the subject in an encyclopedic manner. As HiLo48 noted, it's even more significant than most TFA images are. —David Levy 16:38, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

It shouldn't be censored, it should just not be on the front page.

Translation: "It shouldn't be censored, it should just be censored." —David Levy 16:38, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Putting this image on the front page is the right thing to do. But that doesn't mean it is the smart thing to do. --Awe689 (talk) 13:15, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

That sounds awfully profound, but I'm not sure what position you're arguing for, or why. AlexTiefling (talk) 13:20, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

FYI: a link to the TFAR discussion where consensus (albeit it on a smaller turnout than today) was in favour of the image; and a link to the (now-archived) neutral message I left on this talk-page about this very issue; for some of the time that message was up, the image was on display on this talk page (until I had second thoughts about its appropriateness here). Do I at least get half a cookie for correctly predicting a week ago that there would be "comments and complaints if the picture runs on the main page"? Bencherlite^Talk 13:20, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

The horror, the horror. Lugnuts ^{And the horse} 13:26, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Thank you Bencher. NOTCENSORED and the Main Page, which you link to, is also interesting. Blakk and ekka 13:30, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

• Good decision; people need to see this. Especially the people who don't want to see it. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 14:40, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

  Or, alternatively, freedom of choice; re "not censored", availability for he who seeks ≠ forcing same upon one who does not; with something profoundly disturbing (not a hand gesture or a penis) some people erect defence mechanisms (eg avoidance until they are ready); causing shock/anguish is no great achievement, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 16:05, 25 September 2012 (UTC)