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This is where the Did you know section on the main page, its policies and the featured items can be discussed. Proposals for changing how Did You Know works were being discussed at Wikipedia:Did you know/2011 reform proposals.

Disengaging from certain reviews

I'd like my fellow DYK participants to know that in the future I'm not going to involve myself with the approval or improvement of DYK nominations from Dr. Blofeld, and that I may extend my non-participation to other nominations produced by the "Rosblofnari" group. This is due to a growing concern I have had about the quality of this group's articles and is precipitated by some recent negative interactions with Dr. Blofeld (notably on my talk page, but also in certain nomination templates), including his declaration to me that "If I see you so much as breathe in one of our DYK nominations again I'm going to withdraw it the moment you start commenting". I am further concerned by a recommendation by Dr. Blofeld that the group members should aim to maximize the "efficiency" of their DYK production by limiting the lengths of the articles they nominate at DYK and the amount of time they spend on researching each article.

Accordingly, I will not be responding to other users' requests for help with review of any of these nominations. I will, however, look into these noms/articles if I am reviewing approved noms before sending them to a prep area or to the queues, so you may see my comments on these noms from time to time. --Orlady (talk) 19:45, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

It's good that editors have those rights as volunteers. I never reviewed their articles, but I can say that I won't promote them anymore if this goes through. I partly understood what Blofeld was getting at although the vast majority of what he said was wrong. In response to my comment about quality articles, Blofeld tried to defend the benefits of quality articles, but this new project of his makes it clear, that at least now, he only cares about making a point. SL93 (talk) 20:03, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Sl93, again you've misinterpreted the situation. Rosblofnari has existed since April, it isn't new. I most certainly wouldn't make changes to prove a point. I've proposed changes based on experienced of what works and what doesn't at DYK and that none of us want to have to spend days fixing issues with a single article just for the sake of a DYK credit. You told me I was "wrong" yet admitted that you yourself have been experiencing the same stalling which I find highly hypocritical. You know I'm right, but for some reason you want to continue to bow down to Orlady and defend her as if it improves your status on here or something.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 08:37, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

I didn't misinterpret anything, but you sure did. I said "project" not "Wikiproject". I was referring to your rebellion against DYK in order to prove a point. I defend any editor who acts in good faith while you are assuming bad faith. SL93 (talk) 20:41, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Well..."flabbergasted" comes to mind, but I guess it shouldn't. I didn't know they had a "group" that they're actually calling a WikiProject, but have wondered about the sheer volume of DYKs. I had started to back off from reviewing them about a year ago for a much milder reason. I had questioned a reference, and I got blowback for challenging it. And...you know...why spin your wheels on that kind of thing. To the best of my memory, that was before the campaign on this page to honor Dr. Blofeld's contributons with a mention on the main page. I momentarily forgot about that when I posted at This Here One, and you see the reaction. And in spite of the denial, Dr.B did delete the article sentence in question and removed the photo in question. It's just easier to review others. But I'm still agape at what was posted on your talk page. DYK isn't THAT big of a deal to get that whacked. — Maile (talk) 20:20, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

FWIW, I also was unaware of this "group" that they're calling a WikiProject until less than 24 hours ago. --Orlady (talk) 21:17, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Orlady. You not only bullied us into submission on the Mink industry in Denmark in particular, checking every source and blowing it up into a massive problem despite a lot of effort to correct the problem, but you've also targeted us on the Eagle Peak (Wyoming) article, say that we've bloated it just for the sake of DYK. You admitted on your talk page you dislike the fact that I have a high DYK count and a "sort of cult status" on wikipedia and DYK as you put it which makes you less inclined to help us than oppose us and you wouldn't have brought this up here if you were really constructive and amicable. I told you to stay away from our nominations because there is a difference between constructive criticism and excessive badgering, making little effort to really solve what you are apparently concerned with, and you've admitted as such that you have issues with us personally. You claim that you have all of these life commitments yet you had the time to check every source and stalk me, otherwise you'd not have known about my latest proposal. Yes, DYK needs critical editors who can help identify inaccuracies, poor sourcing etc, but you represent the extreme end of it which crosses over the line into deliberately stalling articles and being excessively picky. As identified on your talk page I could find multiple issues in your own DYKs but I don't hound you about them because I'm just not that sort of person.

Frankly we're sick of reviewers like you moaning about the quality and bloat of expansions, portraying articles with minor problems as disastrous. So from now on we're going to produce new articles which are basic but meet requirements. This will give us more control over content and sourcing which we hope will improve the quality of text and sourcing in the eyes of DYK reviewers, even if the articles are not detailed. I've concluded that DYK generally prefers simple sound quality/sourcing than comprehensive/detailed articles. We're going to work on GA article separately and not put them through DYK. Obviously you've posted here to try to lure reviewers to take a leaf out of your book and impede progress and the number of DYKs we produce which you strangely seem to exhibit some sort of jealousy and contempt for which I find rather pathetic. Above all, our Rosblofnari group work together in good faith to produce an interesting variety of articles for every entity in the world. We work together in a good, collaborative spirit and try to rub that off on others and try to help other editors out with their proposals and however much you do profess to improve DYK quality your attitude at least to us is not what I'd expect of an atmosphere in which everybody helps each other out. I'm very disappointed in you Orlady, given that I had a lot of respect for you and always assumed good faith, which was why it took me so long to speak up about it, but when you insulted us claiming we only cared about DYK count not quality that was the last straw. And it's not as if we're the only victims of your bullying, the copy editing thread further up the page somebody notes how you degraded a contributor by comparing his work to an 8th grader. As somebody said about Orlady "Comments like "Excuse me for assuming competence on your part" and "if I wrote like that in my 8th grade English class, I would have had red marks all over my paper" by User:Orlady on that DYK review are profoundly unhelpful and inappropriate for a collaborative project. (On a separate topic, the prose really is not so disastrous at all - no comment on the now-possibly-fixed close paraphrasing issues.) Possibly Orlady didn't intend them that way... who knows." My sentiments exactly.

Can I just remind you all here that none of us have to contribute to wikipedia much less to DYK. I've long wanted to focus on GA articles myself, but at present DYK seems the only mechanism in which we can work together to produce a series of organized articles together and try to tackle systematic bias and "open up the world". I created my project to better organize our work and keep tabs on everything. If you don't respect us and see our many contributions to DYK as a good thing then that's your problem, but none of us are being paid to produce what we do so you should be grateful rather than hostile towards our efforts. ♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 08:14, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

This whole thing seems like a huge case of WP:GAMING; as an otherwise uninvolved editor, the WikiProject makes me rather uncomfortable and strikes as a more extreme version of a problem we have at WP:NPP - people trying to get a "high score" with little regard for anything else. I would bring this whole thing to WP:AN or WP:DRN, since Blofield seems to be doing the wikipedia equivalent of sticking his fingers in his ears and going "NANANA YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO". I might actually do it myself when I'm a little more awake.

I do agree with Orlady, mass-producing poor new articles (that have only been researched for 20 to 30 minutes?) for the express purpose of garnering DYK credits is rather gross behavior on the parts of everyone involved with that WikiProject.--TKK ^{bark !} 13:49, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

From the person that gave us the ground-breaking brilliance of this near-FA rated magnum opus, I take it you're joking, right? - SchroCat (talk) 19:05, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

for the express purpose of garnering DYK credits. Species articles, especially for obscure species, are frequently short. I also have no intention of nominating that (or any of the other Cotinis species articles, for that matter) to DYK. You've missed the point entirely. --TKK ^{bark !} 19:13, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

I've not missed the point at all: Cotinis subviolacea isn't "short": it's such an utter joke it's ridiculous! It's worthy of half a dozen tags being slapped on it, but I'm afraid this rather silly little posse would probably get panties so bunched up they'd go running to ANI complaining about being pointy - SchroCat (talk) 21:03, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

That you only think that I exist on wikipedia to get a high DYK score is beyond laughable and indicates that you clearly have little experience of my work or me as an editor. Come back here after reading the entirety of User:Dr. Blofeld/DYK and my featured and good articles on my user page and if you still really think that all those articles were written for a cheap credit rather than a love and care for decent content and addressing systematic bias then you have no place existing on wikipedia. You ought to be ashamed of yourself for thinking this♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld

I don't have to read your essays when I can scroll through your WikiProject page and read guidelines that suggest that you have a desire to flood DYK with mediocre-at-best articles. There's a distinct difference between nominated a handful articles and nominating dozens. Also, WP:DWIP.

Don't tell me I should be ashamed of my opinions on anything, because I am not, and no amount of you telling me that I "have no place existing on wikipedia" will make me leave. --TKK ^{bark !} 19:18, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

You're barely out of nappies, you wouldn't know how to identify or write a good article if becoming an adult depended upon it. I can guarantee that the very worst of our DYK articles will be of higher quality than this particular masterpiece put it that way. Why is it the editors who do the least amount of quality work on wikipedia always feel it is their place to denounce the quality and editing of others. If you think a DYK credit is that valuable you know very little about editing.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 20:50, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Really, is bringing my age and an article I made five years ago into this is the best you can do? As far as good articles, see Whippet and Bedlington Terrier, both articles that I rewrote, singlehandedly, nearly from scratch to GA status. You are being disgustingly rude and if this is how you are going to interact with editors outside your little posse, then I'm sorely disappointed. --TKK ^{bark !} 21:37, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps if you refrained from labelling the work of the most productive editor on the website as "mediocre at best" and just shut your mouth about issues which don't concern you (you're not even a DYK contributor) and got on with editing articles on dog breeds things would be sweeter for you. If you insist on turning up here and telling me that I only contribute to wikipedia as a gamer who only cares about DYK count, count yourself lucky I didn't say anything harsher as in my book that's one of the most insulting, rudest comments anybody could say about me on wikipedia given what I've done here...♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 22:10, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Tikuko, I would not call Bedlington Terrier a GA. You seemingly ignored my review which was extremely rude of you. People like you who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones! -- Cassianto^Talk 20:16, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure what should be said here, but if the source of this disagreement is the discussion at Template:Did you know nominations/Mink industry in Denmark, then I'm afraid to say that I think the nominators have only themselves to blame, because it's clear from that discussion that at least two well-credentialled reviewers found multiple problems with the article, including close paraphrasing, factual errors, meaningless sentences and poor organization to name just a few. Nominators remain responsible for ensuring the quality of their submissions and it's hardly appropriate to be trying to pass the blame on to reviewers for identifying the outstanding issues when they fail to do so. Get your article right in the first place and you have nothing to fear from reviewers. Gatoclass (talk) 15:54, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

FTR, Dr. Blofeld is also concerned about Template:Did you know nominations/Eagle Peak (Wyoming). --Orlady (talk) 16:24, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, and most of the issues with that article were caused by DYKs own petty rules...♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 18:07, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Gatoclass, I don't think you've ever said a kind word about me, so what you say is quite frankly irrelevant, you've always been a disgruntled, odious fellow who few people like. None of us are disputing that the article had issues or that anybody was wrong to identify them, but the point is that Rosie tried hard to address the changes and Orlady continued to stall the nomination and make a mountain out of a molehill. You know my opinion of DYK and people like yourself, and the only reason I contribute is for content and collaborating with a bunch of good editors, not for getting a cheap DYK credit, or winning the approval of self-important "well-credentialled" dinosaurs like yourself. I am fully aware that my DYK collaborative work doesn't represent my best quality work, but if you think that we don't care about accuracy you're most mistaken. But there is a difference between constructive criticism and endless badgering over content. Certain reviewers on here seem to like picking holes in articles rather than helping solve whatever they seem problematic themselves. ♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 16:55, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Really surprised to see this here, and hence commenting. In my view, we are lucky to have someone like Dr. Blofeld who bothers with the DYK's. I don't think receiving "DYK credits" is the point here, the point is to expand new articles and his "group" is doing a fabulous job of that. --smarojit ^HD 17:19, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry to hear you think I'm a "dinosaur", but if by that you mean I insist on reasonable standards, guilty as charged. Regarding your professed lack of interest in DYK credits, I might remind you that you are under no obligation to submit your articles here - you can still have the satisfaction of contributing them to wikipedia without ever venturing to this corner of the project. But if you are going to participate here, then you are going to have to accept review of your submissions just like everyone else. Thank you too for the reminder that we are so fortunate to have your services, but perhaps you could also take a moment to reflect on the fact that you are likewise a beneficiary of DYK contributors like Orlady who selflessly devote considerable amounts of their time and energy to the running of DYK and to reviewing of others' submissions, and without whom there wouldn't be a DYK project for you to participate in at all. I'm also happy to hear, BTW, of "the quality of [your] writing", but would prefer to see a little more evidence of that in your DYK submissions, some recent examples of which have not been so impressive. As for the "hostility" toward you, quite frankly I can't recall ever having a dispute with you at all, at least before this last post of yours, let alone holding a "grudge", so unless you can provide me with some evidence for that, I must assume you are mistaken. Gatoclass (talk) 18:16, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

You've not taken too kindly to me Gatoclass since I once spoke out and agreed with Sandy Georgia and Tony that DYK is in need of reform. I remember that you didn't like what I said and you fully defended DYK. Since, I've noticed that you seem to display contempt towards me and whenever you get the opportunity you speak lowly of my work and how wonderful people like you and Orlady are for running DYK. DYK rejects quality articles like Marrakesh in favour of the more basic obscure articles, less to review, easier to process. DYK is not about quality, never has been, but showcasing recent expansions and what wikipedia editors are working on. Articles I've put more time and research into for DYK usually cause the most problems. I think that says a lot about the process and that reviewers seem to care more about technical issues than actual body of content. If you can't see the difference between constructive DYK reviewing (like Bluemoonset who works damn hard to sort issues out by contacting people and doing his best to help them go through) and certain other reviewers like Orlady with our recent articles who seems to relish stalling them and preventing them from going through then I'm sorry that you truly don't understand the perspective of contributors to DYK who find an excessive, badgering reviewer not constructive and deters them from wanting to contribute to it. A few of my friends on here don't contribute to DYK because they found the reviewing environment hostile.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 18:44, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but I've never held grudges against anyone merely for advocating reform here, and could hardly do so since I have initiated many reforms and attempted reforms myself. So again, you would have to show me some actual evidence of where we had a dispute.

The rest of your post is mostly generalizations which can be of little benefit to discuss, I prefer to stick to specifics. The "Mink industry in Denmark" nom clearly had numerous errors which needed attention, and regardless of how you might feel about Orlady or her reviewing style, the responsibility is still on the nominators to fix the issues identified. Other than that, this is probably not the best venue to continue a discussion of this type, if you have more to say you might want to take it to my talk page. Gatoclass (talk) 19:07, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

• I'm utterly staggered by the utter lack of good faith shown here to a respected editor like Dr. Blofeld and by people who really should know better. Orlady, you're taking a rather shabby stance here. I'm hugely glad DYK is an area I don't have to go anywhere near: such a petty and toxic environment is not a place I'd want to spend any time in. - SchroCat (talk) 18:41, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

• I'm staggered too. Gobsmacked, even. The 20 to 30 minutes of research and editing bit blew my socks off. And calling Gatoclass a dinosaur... Manxruler (talk) 19:50, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

20-30 minutes work per editor, there's 3 in our group and often 4 or even 5 people contribute. On average that's at least an 1hr 30 minutes work into each article. That's somehow gross laziness and makes you gobsmacked?♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 20:34, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

90 minutes total, researching and editing; yes, that does leave me gobsmacked. That's not a basis for a proper article at all. Manxruler (talk) 20:48, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Articles on ships maybe. I've written GAs in about 2 hours.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 21:08, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Research and all, of course? Manxruler (talk) 21:26, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

That is around how much time I spend on short articles and Blofeld's DYK articles are much longer than that. SL93 (talk) 20:50, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Pre or post guidelines to "...keep DYKs as simple and minimum/efficient as possible"? I still find it shocking to actually plan on making such a minimal effort. Manxruler (talk) 20:58, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Not really. Articles we put the most effort and work into are not welcome usually, and articles with minimum work which are technically sound are generally approved. It's simply a reflection of the DYK system on which articles are preferred. Do you think that Ivan Sidorenko isn't a "proper article". Because that sort of length would be the minimum we'd go for. I could write up an article of about that length in about half hour. It is a decent start for DYK at minimum anyway.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 21:08, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Wow, it's been a long time since I looked at that. So you could write that up in half an hour, research and all? Those are quite some skills you have there. Manxruler (talk) 21:26, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Sure, look through User:Dr. Blofeld/DYK. There's a quite a few like that. Admittedly we sometimes rush and try to cover too much, but the content is generally OK and the choice of articles are usually quite an exciting mix. If you really look through the lot, you might understand better why I find is difficult to accept comments which infer that I somehow don't put enough work or effort into wikipedia... ♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 21:39, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

I've never denied that you have had quite a number of DYKs over the years, several of which I've found interesting to read, what I'm saying is that if you're serious in spending that short amount of time on each article, then that's one recipe for poor quality. It's not just about articles being such and such a number of characters that worry me, it's the research bit. That's bound to suffer. Also, like Tikuko said, nice job digging up five year old articles. Manxruler (talk) 21:57, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/Grenada National Museum. That sort of length. Short but sweet.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 21:59, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't like the sound of this one bit. Tony (talk) 02:09, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

• If this whole lark isn't about producing the maximum number of DYKs that will sail through reviews with the fewest questions asked, I honestly don't know what it is. We all know it's possible to create good articles without ever submitting it to DYK, and if they are genuinely not seeking either a DYK credit or having their article on the MP, they should put their money where their mouths are (and bypass the "odious dinosaur reviewers" at DYK) instead of blasting others for detecting their own cut corners. And we must seriously ask ourselves if it is desirable for a cabal that has this as a mission statement, that then criticises fellow DYK editors and reviewers for at least trying to do a decent job. I mean DYK has now long had a reputation for sloppy work here that isn't bad enough for some – with the vitriol we see above in this section alone. It sends the clear message that we want sloppy reviewers, and fewer of the sort that asks questions and want to ensure there are fewer articles on the MP that cause the project embarrassment. This is more of the sort of stuff that will hasten DYK's exit from the MP. -- Ohc ^¡digame!_{¿que pasa?} 03:08, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

"Perhaps if you refrained from labelling the work of the most productive editor on the website (citation needed)"... SL93 (talk) 03:48, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

• I am deeply unimpressed by both the posts to Orlady (it isn't reasonable to try to see off potential reviewers) and by the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rosblofnari#New DYK guidelines for maximiding efficiency. When I review, I like to be helpful but maintain decent standards and I believe that is in the best interests of the DYK project and the submitter (whether or not they would prefer a rubber stamp, and I am not saying that is what the Rosblofnari group seek, I am just speaking in general). I support rejecting articles that are far from comprehensive as I noted in relation to some of the "crime in ..." articles recently. An article doesn't need to be a GA but it shouldn't have obvious holes either. Knowing of these guidelines exist hardens my resolve to check any nomination I review for adequate coverage of the topic. EdChem (talk) 04:22, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

• Ladies and gentlemen, no fighting... this is the war room.

• Now, all jokes aside: There is, per the supplementary guidelines, an expectation that an article will appear reasonably complete. This is not a criteria that all articles have to be C-class or higher, but it is an expectation that one will put a reasonable amount of effort in finding sources. That an article takes half an hour to write is not extremely odd (Gagak Item, in its DYK form, took about that much time including research). However, to deliberately aim for the least amount of work possible is not in the DYK spirit, and it certainly doesn't help promote DYK as a viable main page section.

Secondly, this "Wikiproject" should pay attention to close paraphrasing issues. In my last collaboration with the editors in question, William P. Didusch Center for Urologic History, I found while reading and expanding that they seemed to have been copying from sources then paraphrasing (sometimes well, sometimes not) to avoid copyvio issues. Little signs were there: slanted rather than straight quotes, a couple of odd terms which were in the sources but could have been expressed otherwise, and whatnot. As Nikkimaria has removed several of this group's articles in the past month for close paraphrasing concerns, I think this is still happening. It should not be: read first, comprehend, then write in your own words.

Third, Orlady is entirely within her right to withdraw from reviewing articles by any editor she chooses, as are all other DYK reviewers. I would not necessarily have suggested posting that here, but to make a conscious decision is well within one's rights. To be honest I've been trying to avoid this group's nominations as well owing to likely close paraphrasing issues and sometimes confrontational behaviour; there are a few other editors whom I have avoided for similar reasons, though most are not contributing any more.

Can we please just stop the arguing and go back to writing? I am not questioning the value of Rosblofnari's work (I agree they are some of the most productive editors on this site in terms of quantity), but the way in which they approach article writing may need reconsideration. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:36, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't want to prolong this discussion unnecessarily either, but I think a couple of points need to be made. Firstly, it seems clear that a number of our most experienced reviewers have had growing concerns over the quality of some recent submissions from the "Rosblofnari" team. Hopefully the team will take these concerns on board and reconsider their methodology, because while a desire to increase the quantity of contributions is commendable as far as it goes, it won't be a service to the project if it's coming at the cost of basic accuracy and reliability. Secondly, I am concerned at the number of reviewers who have expressed a disinclination to continue reviewing the submissions of the group - you are correct Crisco to say that Orlady or any other user has the right to do so, but if anything seems clear from this discussion it's that these submissions are going to need closer monitoring, not less, and I certainly don't want to be left as the only non-QPQ reviewer covering them. Gatoclass (talk) 09:10, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

• True... true... though a bit of "hard love" (i.e. not allowing reviews to go on forever after close paraphrasing is found) may be necessary. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:15, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, you've lost me as a contributor to DYK, I'm not going to let my name be dragged through the dirt any longer and associated with what the majority appear to consider to be crap that is produced here. Working for DYK is as the janitor is to the corporate fat cat. I'm proud of the range of articles we've produced for DYK and regardless of what anybody says here they're generally pretty decent and interesting articles. Nothing will take that away from us. But I've long wanted to focus on the sort of work which matches my ability as a writer, which is more rewarding for me, but the fact that not a single long-standing DYK contributor could defend us here and each of you seem to speak of us as a pain to DYK and that you only associate us with negative attributes is sufficient persuasion for me that we are wasting our time nominating articles for DYK. DYK is badly in need of replacing with a more exciting way of encouraging content and why the hooks? Name me a writer who truly cares about the majority of the boring hooks and trivia going through every day. DYK has always been about showcasing what editors are working on, not the best of wikipedia. There is an argument to be made that the main page should only be reserved to the best quality work and I happen to agree with it. The way DYK functions at present which encourages mass production rather than quality will continue to cause all sorts of problems. Good luck with continuing to run this and I hope you somehow attract better contributors than myself to it. Thankyou Orlady for reminding me of what is important to me on wikipedia. ♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 09:20, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

"they are some of the most productive editors on this site in terms of quantity"... — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:23, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

So, in essence, you're assigning blame to the DYK system because it forced you to go for quantity over quantity. Right. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 09:48, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not blaming the DYK system itself for anything, DYK wouldn't run if it wass't for people. I'm thanking you for persuading me to do something I've long felt is the right thing to do. But I have a lot of experience with DYK and I've found that articles which had the most effort and research gone into them usually end up being stalled, while the more basic articles tend to go through quicker, so yes, I'm arguing that the current way in which editors review DYKs encourages the mass production of short, basic articles with no technical issues at the expense of articles of real quality because they're easier to approve and process. ♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 10:03, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

• ... Hmm? Sudirman, Albertus Soegijapranata, "Langit Makin Mendung"... those were in pretty much the same shape they are now when they went through DYK, and passed without incident. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:11, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Well it isn't always the case, we've had some long articles go through within a few days and some short ones stalled for over a month. But generally in my own experience those articles with more content and sources tend to be a larger target for issues than smaller articles. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who has put a lot of work into an article and found a lot of problems at DYK review.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 10:16, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Interesting discussion, which sheds some light on the strange reaction to my review of Template:Did you know nominations/Drug barons of Colombia, where some potential BLP issues were in evidence, and the principal authors didn't seem to think it was their responsibility to review text that was in the article before they expanded it and proposed it for a DYK on the mainpage, to assure that text complied with core policies (like BLP). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:02, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

The reaction was prompted by the fact that you once spoke ill of me as an editor and a lot of people turned up saying that you were out of order and I didn't want a conflict breaking out between us again for both our sakes, not that I thought your review wasn't valid. With the Drug barons article, yes, information gathered from existing articles to help write it did seem to cause a few problems and also introduced a few sources which we later removed. Anyway Sandy, you'll be glad to know that I've walked out on DYK now, so that sort of thing need not happen again.. But it's an example of an important article which is probably not suitable for DYK... ♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 11:31, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, that is probably for the best, given your obvious disdain for this project, together with your growing hostility to the review process and apparent reluctance to perform due diligence on your submissions. Reviewers waste an inordinate amount of time on problematic nominations, so I can't pretend to be sorry over the prospect of dealing with fewer of them. Thank you for your past contributions to this project, and good luck with your future wikicareer. Gatoclass (talk) 12:34, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, but don't forget that in return I've also reviewed hundreds of articles myself!...♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 13:49, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

That's fine though. Articles will still get reviewed. SL93 (talk) 13:52, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

When the next ten or twenty finally tire of excessive badgering over reviews and having their work likened to a child, at some point things might not seem so "fine", and I'm willing to bet at some point you yourself will get frustrated with DYK.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 17:48, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

We will see what happens, but you can't predict the future. SL93 (talk) 17:58, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I've removed my name from the DYK leaderboard. Nvvchar is the new "cult" figure and leader of DYK. Our work is important, no matter what holes you pick in it, but DYK really isn't important and articles don't have to go through DYK. If my collaborators still wish to bother with DYK and nominate articles we write together then kudos to them with all the hardship they face, but I want no credit or association with articles as DYKs personally. It's all about content Orlady, that you inferred otherwise at least to me personally is one of the most insulting comments I've ever read on here and really you should have apologized for saying it.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 06:55, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Orlady, thank you for starting this thread and pointing out the existence of this extraordinary pump-out-crap page. Dr Blofeld, you say: "Frankly we're sick of reviewers like you moaning about the quality and bloat of expansions, portraying articles with minor problems as disastrous. So from now on we're going to produce new articles which are basic but meet requirements." There needs to be more moaning and more notice taken of it. Tony (talk) 09:36, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Pump out crap page? I was thinking the same thing about your mouth Tony if you can't see beyond your own snotty-nosed outlook. No there shouldn't Tony. If people are going to consistently moan about quality then I think DYK should be scrapped entirely and replaced with a completely different system which values quality over simplicity with less, higher quality articles go through for longer, not in a hook but article snippet format, with a more welcoming environment than a more hostile environment which you support. Your quest to implement a militarian-type order with DYK is just not compatible with the system that currently functions and your understanding of the situation indicates that you have little experience of how DYK really works and how editors work. That'll reduce the amount of decent contributors and be more likely to only keep those who really care about their DYK count. If you really want to raise standards an article of the month scheme should be introduced which rewards editors for producing the highest quality articles. Bleedin yelling at editors who work in good faith and making them feel like bog standard human beings and contributors is quite frankly a disgusting approach and reflects much about you as a person Tony if you think that sort of approach is constructive. I've supported you on many occasions in the past Tony, but you've really got your wires crossed if you think that belligerent reviewing is somehow the way forward. ♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 10:58, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

May I suggest that you all disengage from this discussion. From what I can see as a non-participating user both Orlady and Blofeld is right at times and wrong at times and I think you are both strong minded users who obviously refuses to see each others point of views and just goes on with the insults towards each other. Might I suggest that Blofeld perhaps takes a break from adding new DYK noms and Orlady takes a break from reviewing DYK noms. When Wikipedia becomes so important to a user that it feels it is entitled to throw insults at another user for whatever reason it is time to take a Wiki-break. regards,--BabbaQ (talk) 15:38, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Adios

I'm no longer going to have anything to do with DYK, I wish everybody the best of luck, and whatever anybody thinks of me here, I've never once strongly criticized anybody's contributions here or intentionally disrupted anybody out of spite and have done little but encourage productivity here. Please remember that none of us have to contribute to DYK and we work for free. None of the contributors to DYK owe us anything so take it easy guys. Problems with one article is never important enough to deter people from contributing here permanently and I fear that we'll lose many more contributors here. Please try to do your part in making DYK a more friendly place and assume good faith in the work of editors. Adios.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 11:52, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I was sad to see the discussion above. As for me, I have definitely valued many of the articles produced by Blofeld and the group (without taking any sides about the disputed articles) and I thought having a small group project appearead like a good idea and a good way to make Wikipedia more social. It's a sad feature of Wikipedia that so many volunteers often will feel at some point that their effort is not appreciated. (And I see a feature, because I think it often happens without nobody actually wants it to happen, and both side of a dispute can have some of the same feelings of not being appreciated for their work). Best wishes, Iselilja (talk) 12:52, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Iselilja for being the only DYK contributor to speak up who values our work and our spirit of collaboration.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 16:17, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I was part of the group and miss it, the collaboration spirit and you especially. See you on GA, says GA, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:37, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I missed the conversation and brewha above but I will chime in that I will miss Dr. Blofeld and his group at DYK. I have reviewed several of their noms and while, yes, some of them have had issues that needed to be addressed before promotion I think that is a due consequence of the sheer volume of noms being produced from that crew. I know that with my own noms and in reviewing the noms of other experienced editors over the course of my 6 year (on and off) involvement with DYK that no one submits perfect articles 100% of the time. If every 7th nom submitted by an editor has an issue, a problematic review will pop up for most editors once every couple of months but for a group of editors that submit several dozen noms a month, of course the occurrence of issues will pop up more frequently just because of scaling.
This is a perspective that both the Blofeld group and other DYK editors should keep in mind. I don't think anyone is deliberately targeting the group's noms for overly critical and pedantic reviewing and I certainly don't think the group produces subpar work that consistently has issues. The vast majority of the group's work is not problematic and is undoubtedly beneficial to both DYK and the encyclopedia as whole. But due to the sheer volume of output, and human nature in general, there will be noms that have significant issues that will need to be addressed before they reach the main page. This is a workable problem (maybe the group should just withdraw the problematic noms if answering the concerns takes too much time away from working on other articles) and one that shouldn't end in a group of valuable contributors abandoning DYK. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 17:58, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

A pity to see the record DYK creator leave. I wish you all the best with whatever you do in future on Wikipedia. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 18:11, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

• I wish you the best, Doc. You are someone who takes pride in his work, and you have been a remarkably hard worker in making Wikipedia better (310 DYKs in the first six months of 2013 blows my mind!). On the other hand, some of your recent comments about good people like Orlady and Gatoclass are not among your better moments. Hopefully, a short break from DYK will revitalize you and allow you to return soon as a constructive contributor. A summer stroll away from the confines of the "evil volcano" can do a person a world of good! Cheers. Cbl62 (talk) 18:22, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Maybe not my best moment but it means I'm now free of DYK!! You may believe they're good people, but that doesn't make the sort of things Orlady has said about Grade 8 red marks and us only caring about a DYK credit acceptable or that Gato and the others ganged up against me here somehow their finest moment either. And quite frankly if on both sides people refrained from insulting each other then things like this wouldn't happen. How I act is always a mirror of what is dished out. The real issue comes down to lack of good faith and the good spirit of collaboration. Agnes summarizes the situation very well I believe, but it is wikipedia community tendency to ignore the positive and focus on the negative, however much the positive outweighs the bad. I don't like being around negative people period. ♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 21:22, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

You've produced some interesting articles about clothing and the like, and I hope that will continue outside of DYK. I'm sorry you decided to take it that way, and opted to bail out. But I guess the ultimate choice is yours. -- Ohc ^¡digame!_{¿que pasa?} 16:55, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi from deWP: Studying potential bias in DYK

Over in the German-language Wikipedia we recently had a discussion about potential bias in the selection of DYK nominations and in what is subsequently shown as DYK items on the Main Page. Please find below my suggestion of 8 July 2013 on how to conduct some research into the second of the two aspects (outcome), see the project page translated into English. Please let me know what you think, cheers --Pipifaxa 07:51, 18 July 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pipifaxa (talk • contribs)

find the original project page in German in one section of this page-- Pipifaxa (talk • contribs) 07:59, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't think the English Wikipedia has the same problems with the bias that the german Wikipedia is alluding to have problems with. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 08:04, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Interesting comment, thanks, btw, it was not my intention to suggest any kind of sameness. Yet, what makes you think the way you do in this regard? cheers, (Pipifaxa 13:40, 18 July 2013 (UTC))

Wrong hook in prep 2

The wrong hook for Honey Creek State Park was promoted. I was the creator so I won't change it. SL93 (talk) 19:47, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

It has been taken care of and has been moved to a queue. SL93 (talk) 21:05, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Prep 3

Two comments:

• the lead hook needs a comma after the place name, but (pictured) is in the way.
• the second hook (Ivanhorod) mentions an iconic photo without showing it, - missing a chance. (It#s also not the preferred hook.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:15, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't see how why it needs a comma. SL93 (talk) 22:45, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

"... that St John the Evangelist's Church, Corby Glen (pictured) has early" - it says that Corby Glen is pictured and has early ..., but you want to say that of the church. Without (pictured), it should be "... that St John the Evangelist's Church, Corby Glen, has early", - I don't know how to repair. If you ask me, the best solution would be to have the second hook pictured ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:52, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

I added a comma after (pictured) and someone can change the hook if it they think that it would sound better. I also moved the second hook to the top of prep area 4 with a picture. SL93 (talk) 22:55, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

• I'm glad that was moved. I think that having two hooks with "execution of Jews" and "Armenian Genocide" in the same set was a bit too much. I moved the "(pictured)"; if people prefer it the other way, feel free to undo. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 23:55, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

• Did I do something wrong and cause Ivanorod to disappear? If so, it was an accident. I was trying to tweak articles and punctuation Awien (talk) 23:00, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
  • You didn't. I moved it to prep area 4. SL93 (talk) 23:01, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
    • OK, thks, caught up now. Now to tweak . . .Awien (talk) 23:02, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:50, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Proposal for enhancement of DYK/Removed

I'm thinking this page would be lot more useful if we included info on the user who approved the submission so we could track which users were making approval errors, and perhaps also the hook promoters as well. If we did this it would be best IMO to put the info into a table with search buttons so patterns could be more easily distinguished. I will probably do this over the next few days if there are no objections, but I'm happy to hear suggestions on what info the table could be used to include. Gatoclass (talk) 05:06, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I think this is a good idea. I also anticipate resistance / unpopularity, unfortunately. We need to ensure that addressing errors is seen as skill development and quality control rather than criticism / blaming for inevitable and avoidable errors. EdChem (talk) 06:27, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

A Polish Nobleman in Template:Did you know/Preparation area 4

I asked for this to be featured as a leading hook, with the picture (it's a Rembrandt piece, with a thumbnail that is pretty distinctive). Since my request was ignored by the admin who passed it, I am now asking here for this entry to be withdrawn from Prep 4 and added to another one, as the leading one. Thanks, --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:29, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

PS. Also, I think that the passed leading hook for Ivanhorod should be pulled. The problem is the opening "that the now-iconic photograph (pictured)" - yet the "now-iconic" text comes from uncited picture's caption. Nothing in text suggests that the picture is notable in itself. The minor problem of linking to Polish resistance movement in World War II rather than to specific organization (Armia Krajowa) is also worth mentioning, although that by itself is not a major issue here, just a tidbit to possibly fix. I guess that the hook can be fixed by removing the "now-iconic", but the reviewer should be cautioned to be more careful. PPS. Looking at Template:Did you know nominations/Ivanhorod, I see that an ALT1 without the controversial phrase was passed, but admin ignored this and used the non-approved hook, uh... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:36, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Ivanhorod: rather than pull, use the ALT1 hook that was preferred anyway by both author and reviewer (me), - actually: I will do that now, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:45, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not an admin. There is no guarantee that every hook with a picture will have that picture in a hook when promoted. Also, I was just promoting what was already approved. It was the responsibility of the reviewer to notice that. SL93 (talk) 11:32, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Also, the original review never said that there was any controversial phrase. Anyway, no one who submits an image is entitled to that image in a lead hook. The only important thing is clearing the backlog. SL93 (talk) 11:34, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Both the reviewer and the nominator cannot approve the reviewer's own hook. SL93 (talk) 12:17, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

(ec) I know that no one is entitled to a picture, but in this case the picture is mentioned in the hook and important. I didn't "create" the ALT1, but only tweaked the original hook, - there is no information in ALT1 that was not in the approved original, therefore it doesn't need an extra reviewer. Please re-install that version, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:26, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It is the responsibility of the person who promotes a hook to make sure that there aren't any issues with the review and approval, and also to check to be sure which of the hooks have been approved, since not all of them may have. This definitely includes checking the selected hook to be sure its assertions—especially something like "now-iconic"—were backed up by inline source citations. In this case, had the original hook been supported, I might well have preferred it to Gerda's ALT; reading Poeticbent's comment, I would have said he was happy with both versions, not necessarily preferring the ALT, and Gerda's approval merely expresses a preference for the ALT, but does not say it's the only one approved, which I would take to mean that both were included in the tick—the promoter is not required to take the reviewer's choice if more than one hook is approved. Finally, regarding the lead hook request, there is absolutely no guarantee that a nominated image will be chosen for the lead slot. This particular image doesn't speak nearly so well as some Rembrandts we have featured in lead slots, and I would be reluctant to have it moved to a lead position now that it has been promoted as a non-lead. BlueMoonset (talk) 12:27, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

In response to Gerda, it it still your hook. In response to BlueMoonset, it doesn't say anywhere that a promoter is responsible. If that was the case, a reviewer would not be needed. SL93 (talk) 12:29, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Ask BlueMoonset, and be careful with strong phases such as "not true". If a new fact is inserted by an alternative, it needs a new reviewer, not if the facts stay the same. I tried to correct the mistake made when the wrong hook was promoted as simple as possible, - sorry for that, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:34, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

(ec) ps: note that I only changed once the original hook caused problems, - I respected the decision of the promoter to use it before that came up. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:39, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Gerda, no one has an obligation to approve your suggested hook when you already added a tick. SL93 (talk) 12:35, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:39, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

You shouldn't have added a tick (an approval of your own hook) to begin with. Also, unlike what BlueMoonset said, DYK rules say no such thing about promoters needing to complete a second review. SL93 (talk) 12:41, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I disagree. I approved both the original hook and my simpler wording which didn't change the facts. That simpler wording (ALT1) is not "my hook". I would have become "my hook" if I had added something, and THEN another reviewer would have been needed. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:51, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) SL93, each step of the process is meant to be a check to be sure that problematic hooks and articles don't make it through to the front page. Even the most experienced reviewer can miss something important: the promoter to prep is the backstop to the reviewer, and can send nominations back for further work. (There are a lot of inexperienced reviewers out there; it's even more crucial to look over those before promoting.) The admin who moves a prep to a queue is also a check point. BlueMoonset (talk) 12:45, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

BlueMoonset, Wikipedia:Did you know/Guide says no such thing. SL93 (talk) 12:48, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Gerda, take a look at Template:Did you know nominations/Sharknado for an example. SL93 (talk) 12:56, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Do you have a simple example? I have no time to study that, would have to go to the article and the history of four alternatives. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:00, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry about this, but I don't think that I can try to explain myself without losing my composure. It isn't because of you, but because Piotrus was complaining about an image and because BlueMoonset is still saying to follow something that is not within the guide on updating preps. He would first need to get consensus to add that to the directions. I don't have to ask the editor anything because I do not believe that he is any better than myself, or what is currently written. SL93 (talk) 13:17, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't want you to lose your composure ;) - I have an easy example, Template:Did you know nominations/Cyberiada (opera), reviewer (not me) saying "I wrote it but it just tweaks the previous, so I don't think needs a 2nd review", but BlueMoonset (correctly) saying that in rewriting, a date was added that was not supported by a source and needed extra review. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:31, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Alright, I have received a response from a frequent DYK contributor. I will not say who as the editor might not appreciate that. His response was that a quick check has been an apparently unwritten rule for a while. I propose that this be added to Wikipedia:Did you know/Preparation areas if that is the case. However, promoters should not be expected to do a deep review. For example, promoters would rightfully not want to review nominations by Blofeld. SL93 (talk) 14:04, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

(You seem to have missed that there is no Dr. Blofeld anymore, nor will there be DYK nominations by the person behind the former name.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:21, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I didn't miss that, but he still left earlier nominations behind when he left. SL93 (talk) 14:24, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

• I didn't say that last sentence, period. (But yes, I've looked through eight different pages and didn't find anything about people promoting hooks to the prep areas having to check the articles promoted). I think, and I hope others will agree, that a promoter (either prep or queue) should check (at the very least): basic grammatical structure, length, tags (if any), and that the hook fact is supported. These are absolute basics. Close paraphrasing should also be checked, but with a random sample. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:10, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I was just taking it from "but it has been an (apparently unwritten) rule for quite a while". I didn't mean anything by it. SL93 (talk) 14:12, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I see that you're referring to the part about Blofeld's nominations. That is exactly why I said "His response was" in the third sentence. I didn't see how it wasn't obvious that "I propose that this be added to Wikipedia:Did you know/Preparation areas if that is the case." and everything after that was what I said. SL93 (talk) 14:20, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

My point of all this is that someone cannot lecture a promoter about not checking such things without even stating that it is an unwritten rule. BlueMoonset's edit summary said "keep checking", but there is nothing to check as it is an unwritten rule. SL93 (talk) 14:27, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, I'm leaving to get books to research subjects for Wikipedia articles. The encyclopedia part is the most important thing anyway, not whether a picture is added to a lead hook or not. SL93 (talk) 14:31, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Speaking as a frequent DYK contributor: 1) nom should never add green check marks to his/her own hook 2) a reviewer should always verify that all facts in the hook are backed up by the refs; in this case this didn't happen (no problem - we all make errors - just a reminder to whoever the reviewer was here that they goofed, please be careful) 3) I'd expect any subsequent reviewer to read comments to see if they raise any red flags; I wouldn't expect them to do any deeper review 4) I would also expect that if a nom (like me) asks for an image to be used in the hook that the hook would either be kept a while for that (if there's a queue of such hooks) or (if the image is not appropriate) an explanation would be made why it is. In this case, I - a frequent DYK contributor - made a request to use the picture (I very rarely do so). That this was ignored I personally consider a bit offensive - as in, the promoter didn't bother to read my comments, or didn't think they are worth replying :( --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 17:30, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Even frequent DYK contributors do not receive extra benefits, but I do agree that a consensus could probably be formed about "if a nom (like me) asks for an image to be used in the hook that the hook would either be kept a while for that (if there's a queue of such hooks)". SL93 (talk) 17:44, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I just thought that editors would rather not wait a long time for their hooks to be promoted, just because of a picture. SL93 (talk) 17:46, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

My personal thoughts on User:Piotrus's points: #1: If the change to the hook is merely grammatical, that is, it presents exactly the same information in a manner that is easier to read, then there is no problem with the reviewer still approving the nomination. #2: Of course a reviewer should always verify the facts are backed up, it's in our rules. #3:Subsequent reviewers should carry out a full review if they are going to approve, or reject the hook; how do they know nothing has changed since the initial review? #4: Nominator requests are merely requests; there are lots of hooks, and lots have pictures. In my opinion, any hook that is nominated with a picture is requesting the use of that picture. Requesting that the picture is used is tautological, and I don't take it into consideration at all. The most interesting hook, or hook with the most interesting picture is what I select (along with a few other factors about not repeating similar images to the last couple of runs etc.) Harrias ^talk 18:31, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Comment. I resent the attitude of User:Piotrus in this thread. He's an experienced Wikipedian with whom I happened to have worked for years proving the utmost value and reliability of the material I add to this encyclopedia. Piotrus should have asked me to supply additional third-party reliable sources instead of bitching about choices which are not his to make. The photograph is iconic, no question about it. I added more proof, as soon as I run into this conversation. Our top DYK volunteers deserve full credit for their editorial work. I respect their decisions, and have never asked anybody for the lead placement myself, because new entries should speak for themselves. Poeticbent talk 18:14, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I am sorry, User:Poeticbent, I must have missed your name as the nom in the DYK page; othewise I'd have notified you. I thought I did notify the nominator, obviously I was wrong. (That said, I still would've listed the issue here, in case you couldn't reply before the featurette). And, uh, I still don't see a citation for an iconic - the quote is about an old man crying at an exhibition. What am I missing here? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 19:39, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Look again. The reference with quote from Professor Daniel Goldhagen about the "iconic" photograph from Ivanhorod is already there. I think we all need to give ourselves more credit then we do. Poeticbent talk 21:25, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

• I took it upon myself to try to overlook all the expressions of entitlement, hurt feelings, and other pettiness in this discussion, and evaluate the hook and image on their merits. I decided that it's a fine example of the kind of content we need in the image slot (a fine image and a hook that becomes much more interesting when it is associated with an image), so I swapped it into an image slot in the prep area. --Orlady (talk) 19:03, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Good move, thank Orlady. By the same token, would you please reinstate the phrase which (on similar premise) makes another hook that much more significant? It is supported by reliable third party source quoted with an inline citation: "the now-iconic photograph" removed in Prep 4. Right now the hook is located at Template:Did you know/Queue/6. Thanks. Poeticbent talk 00:00, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

DYK Prep Guidelines

In re to the above Polish Nobleman issue, SL93 is absolutely correct about one thing. If it is the promoter's responsibility to double-check the approved review, then it should be so stated in the guidelines. This discussion has happened multiple times before here. Rather than wait for someone else to do it, or another discussion hither and yon, I added it as N14 on the above-mentioned DYK/Prep areas page. Edit it, improve it, but it's necessary for it to be there. — Maile (talk) 14:50, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

A link to your addition would be helpful. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:59, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

• Endorse in principle, although the wording and scope could be approved. This is the sort of accountability here that I have long advocated for, and something that could help resolve a number of the recurring issues seen at DYK. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:59, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for putting the link up there. I don't have a problem with any editor wording it better, should any care to. It just needs to be stated for the record. — Maile (talk) 16:26, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Pointless hooks

Serious rewording is required, among the sea of garish blue; in some cases, either (1) searching of the articles involved to locate a fact that isn't boring; or (2) removing the article from the list is in order.

• Prep area 3:

... that St John the Evangelist's Church, Corby Glen (pictured), has early 15th-century wall paintings which Nikolaus Pevsner described as "very extensive"?

Why not make it punchier and shorter by removing whoever he is—it's a needless cluttering:

... that St John the Evangelist's Church, Corby Glen (pictured), has "very extensive" early 15th-century wall paintings?

In any case, Pevsner exposes his poverty of critical language in using "very" ... cf the just as invalid "mildly extensive" or "partially extensive"? You might think it's reasonable to bin the quote marks and turn it into adult language:

... that St John the Evangelist's Church, Corby Glen (pictured), has extensive early 15th-century wall paintings?

That's more like it.

... that the Australian Voluntary Hospital was a military hospital in England, staffed by Australian expatriate nurses and medical practitioners, that served on the Western Front between 1914 and 1916?

I suppose the obvious question is why a military hospital wouldn't have nurses and medical practitioners under its roof. And why an "Australian" one wouldn't have Australians inside. Doctors would be neater, yes? But which bit is interesting or surprising, as required by the rules?

... that although Palikir was made the capital of the Federated States of Micronesia in 1989, it is not the largest settlement on the island of Pohnpei?

This is just plain weird. You know, my home town isn't the largest settlement on that island either. Nor is New York City.

... that there were over 2,500 Armenian churches in Turkey before the Armenian Genocide, and fewer than 40 are functioning today?

Good.

... that Swedish journalist Elisabet Höglund is a former road bicycle racer?

Um ... who cares?

... that in the film Chupkatha, singer Silajit Majumder made his debut as a film music composer?

Very marginal.

... that the song "Synthetic Substitution" by Melvin Bliss, despite being sampled in over 94 songs, originally started life as a throwaway B-Side?

Grumble: I suppose it passes, just.

• Prep are 4:

... that scholars are not sure who is portrayed in Rembrandt's tronie-style painting A Polish Nobleman?

Scholars also aren't sure of a lot of things. Like what brand of deodorant I use. Why are negative statements suddenly appearing as hooks?

... that the pilot for Devious Maids was aired on Lifetime after ABC declined to pick it up?

Again, negative; is there an interest factor in a show being picked up by one network after another declined??? I'd have thought it wasn't too uncommon. Tony (talk) 15:13, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, if we should follow your thinking ALL hooks are pointless or dull. I mean come on, give yourself a break.--BabbaQ (talk) 15:26, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

This is nitpicking. You are not the final authority on what is interesting or not. SL93 (talk) 15:40, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

If that's your attitude and it's shared by other DYK regulars, there is no hope for this forum. Tony (talk) 16:07, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Alright. Believe that. I don't really care. SL93 (talk) 16:11, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

But SL93, I do care about DYK. Tony (talk) 16:22, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I do care about DYK, but I don't care about your belief because the future cannot be predicted. SL93 (talk) 16:24, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I think the Australian hospital one is actually the most interesting of this batch - that the authorities used Aussie doctors and nurses to treat Australian patients, rather than let British or French doctors do it, is really weird when you stop to consider it. Of course, this begs the question of how the building managed simultaneously to be located "in England" and "on the Western Front", as stated in the hook, but that's a different matter. 78.149.172.10 (talk) 16:00, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

No, Babba: I didn't quote the ones I think are good. Sometimes every hook in a prep area will be pretty good. The hospital one: I didn't look at any of the articles, and I'm hoping that the wording can be rationalised (perhaps with a new factoid from the article, perhaps not) in a way that conveys this interest rather than appears to state the obvious. This is one of the more interesting challenges of DYKing. Tony (talk) 16:06, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

But you could stop for a moment and consider the fact that someone has obviously found these hooks good enough to be featured on the main page of Wikipedia. Just a suggestion. Regards,--BabbaQ (talk) 16:14, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I think that a number of the points made by Tony are nitpicking, but there is nothing wrong with that; we should strive for the highest level of quality possible. I think Tony will accept that he is not the final authority on "interesting-ness" but that does not mean we should ignore his help, as bluntly phrased as it may be. I'm just having a quick browse through between work projects at the moment, but if these points are still outstanding later, I'll try and have a further look at trying to resolve them as best possible. Harrias ^talk 16:18, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Sure, and maybe a few points I've made could be argued against—but might all the same prompt nominators to search for the best hook material. One general point I got out of looking at these hooks is that some are stuffed full of information, and that this might make the task of making the hook punchy and easily digestible harder. The Australian hospital one is a point in case: can a few items be stripped out of it to expose the essence of the hook "message"? Tony (talk) 16:22, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunatly nitpicking is nitpicking... it isnt something positive even though it could potentially lead to something positive. Nitpicking is in most cases percieved as rudeness and " I am better than you" mentality. I do not think Tony would have reacted kindly to similar remarks had it been the opposit. Just being real. I am trying to just politly point out that if there are problems with a few hooks bring it up at the hooks talk pages or similar. This is my final comment on this thread.--BabbaQ (talk) 16:25, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

It's not polite at all. And worse, it's detracts from the kind of attitude that DYK needs to evolve, to improve, to fulfil its mission. That is, it needs to react more positively to critiquing. To return to the hooks: the point of the Palikir one is really hard to detect because of the setting up of "the FS of Micronesia" against "the island of Pohnpei" ... we have to think hard to unravel it: "that although Palikir was made the capital of the Federated States of Micronesia in 1989, it is not the largest settlement on the island of Pohnpei?" Could it be simplified, perhaps? "that Palikir was chosen as capital of the Federated States of Micronesia over the largest settlement, X?" (Was there upset, complaining? I'd work that in in a few words if it was the case.) Tony (talk) 16:32, 19 July 2013 (UTC) And a quick look at the article gives the cue:

"that Palikir, formerly a tiny village, was made the capital of the Federated States of Micronesia over the largest settlement and previous capital, Koloni?" Tony (talk) 16:36, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

And there's an apostrophe blooper that needs fixing in the article. Thanks. Tony (talk) 16:42, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Ideally, the attention of a reader is attracted by information that is surprising and unexpected and unlikely. The skills needed for identifying such information might be possessed by a statistician or an actuary or a bookmaker.

—Wavelength (talk) 17:08, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

As usual, Tony is pushing his personal POV on what makes for good hooks. I guess it's Friday. It must be very rewarding being able to know without a shred of doubt what the English-speaking portion of the world's population finds interesting. And, having determined clearly what the majority likes, it must also be nice to be so easily able ignore what the minority might find interesting. Manxruler (talk) 18:08, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

We see that the leopards haven't changed their spots, which is sad. I'd hoped for slight movement in the DYK culture over the past few months. Tony (talk) 02:29, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Tony, why not write a new essay on "how to write a great hook"? Once people get used to it, why not incorporate it into the instructions? I see now that this was attempted at Wikipedia:How to write the perfect "Did you know" hook. How about rewriting and updating it? It's pretty damn old. Viriditas (talk) 02:36, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Instructions are at Wikipedia:Did you know/Hook.

—Wavelength (talk) 00:34, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

FTR, Tony is entitled to identify what he thinks are substandard hooks just like any other user - just as long as he does it in good faith and not merely as a means of attacking DYK. Let's not forget that as a general rule, the more people vetting the queue, the better the quality of the end product. Gatoclass (talk) 12:54, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

FTR, Tony could think about his tone when he presents his good faith suggestions about the hook. Overall I have seen that the user tends to indirectly write "you all are idiots and I am right" but ofcourse not meaning so but it comes across very aggressive. He could do well to be reminded of that at times.--BabbaQ (talk) 17:49, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

His tone seems fine to me, and I share his concerns. I will say, however, that most DYK hooks are pretty good. I think what happens (and I am totally guessing here) is that there are days (involving multiple queues) where the hooks are quite weak, and that might have caught Tony's eye. Viriditas (talk) 00:47, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Suggestion

I have a suggestion, wouldn't it be a good thing to have a talk page Category for all articles that has appeared at the DYK section. Something like Category:Articles that appeared in the Did you know section, for the talk page of each article. Because if an article appear at DYK it means it has a certain standard that some users might be interested in. Just a suggestion. --BabbaQ (talk) 15:28, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree with that. It could be built into {{dyktalk}}. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:29, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I remember trying to look for such a category when I first participated in DYK and I also remember being surprised that it didn't exist. SL93 (talk) 16:30, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

May I then suggest that we do this immediatly so it just not dies out as yet another suggestion. I think that would be really good and important. My only concern is how we should add this Category to articles that has already appeared at DYK. And as I am not the best editor when it comes to this I would like for anyone else to create this Category and let me know when it is done. Would be appreciated so we can get started with adding this category from now on. Regards,--BabbaQ (talk) 17:18, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

So... like Category:Wikipedia Did you know articles? A hidden, talk page category, with over 62,000 members, that is built into {{dyktalk}}, and was made in 2008. Chris857 (talk) 17:25, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Why is it hidden? What is the point in that? Then I suggest making that into what I suggested earlier..more public.--BabbaQ (talk) 17:30, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Also, is there a way to add the "Contents" box at the top of it, like the one on Category:Hidden categories — Maile (talk) 17:37, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

As expected every suggestion made here just dies out and users forget about it just as fast as they have responded.--BabbaQ (talk) 17:43, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I think that this needs to be updated

Wikipedia:Did you know/Guide says that "The image must be protected before it goes live". Images haven't been being protected. SL93 (talk) 22:23, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Oh, never mind - Wikipedia:Cascade-protected items. SL93 (talk) 22:26, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Harvard ref usage

Passing along a helpful tool for the use of Harvard references in articles. User:Ucucha/HarvErrors explains it. If you have that installed, any article that has malformed Harvard referencing will show the errors in red, big enough you can't miss them. Copy this on your .js user page, exactly like this:

importScript('User:Ucucha/HarvErrors.js');

Then save. Might I also suggest that if you find articles that have errors like this, the fix is usually something really simple - the inline citation must be able to find its source you have pointed it to. If you have something in the citation that is not in the source, or something in the citation is off like a missing pipe, it throws up an error. — Maile (talk) 23:03, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

• Yeah, it's a very useful script. I've been using it for over a year now, and it helps me write better articles. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:16, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

They just go straight through despite review suggestions

It's like a faulty toilet that slowly gushes water down the drain. I see that two hooks I've critiqued above have gone through into queue 5 unchanged:

... that the Australian Voluntary Hospital was a military hospital in England, staffed by Australian expatriate nurses and medical practitioners, that served on the Western Front between 1914 and 1916? ... that although Palikir was made the capital of the Federated States of Micronesia in 1989, it is not the largest settlement on the island of Pohnpei?

Now, someone tell me how a hospital "serves" on the Western Front? Isn't it people who do that? And I went to considerable trouble to suggest a much better hook for Palikir—ignored without comment. Who was the promoting admin?

And I note a disturbing xenophobic pattern of screeching back at anyone who comes here criticising (and suggesting improvements). It's a strategy of personalising: please see the pretty nasty, aggressive comments about me above. But I have a shield, so it doesn't put me off; my concern is that other editors might suffer the same blasts of indignation. Tony (talk) 02:35, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

And what a joke this forum is: the apostrophe howler in Palikir still hasn't been fixed, despite my bothering to post here about it. Tony (talk) 02:38, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

The feathers and tar will be ready for you shortly. In the context of the Australian Voluntary Hospital, "hospital" is a military unit, and not a building. We often say that military units serve or fight in battles, campaigns and wars. It is what we call a collective noun. Similarly (and this probably accounts for the confusion above) "Australian Voluntary Hospital" was not, as you seem to have assumed, a description of the unit, but its formal, official name. Hence the capitalisation. It is what we call a proper noun. Hawkeye7 (talk) 02:47, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Tony, I don't think people would "screech back" at you so much if you didn't have a habit of getting your facts wrong when complaining about hooks. The above is a case in point. Do you think you could do a bit more research before complaining in future? It would save a lot of trouble and avoid some of that screechiness you understandably dislike. Prioryman (talk) 06:01, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Oh, which facts are they? Tony (talk) 07:12, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

If I understand correctly, only an admin can promote a prep area into the queue, and there are instructions for doing so. Could we add to those instructions a reminder to check WT:DYK for discussions of issues with hook in that set? Better yet, could there be a way of noting at the top of a prep area that someone objects to its promotion? That way, when (say) Tony posts a long note on two prep areas, he could edit those two areas to note an unresolved query so that the promoting admin comes and checks on the issues before going forward with putting the set into the queue. Is this a viable approach? EdChem (talk) 04:58, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't think that would be practical. Discussion of an item should be on its own page. Hawkeye7 (talk) 05:53, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, what I was thinking is something like this:

1. When the set is prepared, a note is left at the top of the prep area that it is ready for promotion
2. If someone raises an issue here, they also change the note to say that there is an open discussion
3. When the person who raised the issue is satisfied s/he may change the note back to ready for promotion; failing that, once consensus is reached it may be returned to 'ready for promotion'
4. In the absence of responses to the issues raised or in circumstances of urgency, the promoting admin may consider and respond to the issue and then immediately promote the set to the queue.

I agree it is more cumbersome but I can see how issues raised here once hooks make the prep areas can otherwise be missed / lost. EdChem (talk) 06:25, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps what we need is a permanent "Hook queries" or "Hook errors" on this page where such issues can be posted, with an instruction to promoters to check it before they promote. Prioryman (talk) 06:28, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I have trimmed the "Australian Voluntary Hospital" hook of extraneous information. I agree the "Palikir" hook is rather weak but I can see some problems in Tony's suggested alts, so I have left it unchanged. If there's a wayward apostrophe in the article somewhere, it would be far faster for you to fix that Tony than to continue to complain about it here. Gatoclass (talk) 13:11, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Tony, looks like the apostrophe blooper is fixed. --Rosiestep (talk) 14:47, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing, Rosie. Gato, rather than fix it directly I brought it up here to remind the forum that articles aren't been checked properly for obvious issues before being moved to the queue. Tony (talk) 14:58, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I have also now given a tweak to the Palikir and journalist hooks you mentioned. Gatoclass (talk) 15:26, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Tony: as far as I can tell, you made your suggestions at Wikipedia talk:Did you know#Pointless hooks. The nomination pages for those hooks are at Template:Did you know nominations/Palikir and Template:Did you know nominations/Australian Voluntary Hospital, where as far as I can tell you never commented. It's entirely possible that the people promoting these hooks never saw your suggestions. rʨanaɢ (talk) 15:03, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, you're right. Thx again to Gato. Tony (talk) 15:29, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Tony's comment about the hook for St John the Evangelist's Church, Corby Glen. I am making his suggested change. If others strongly disagree, please speak up. Cbl62 (talk) 15:30, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Once again Tony, it is not your suggestions or thinking that is wrong. It is how you present it, your comments at the top looks like you are accusing everyone (except yourself ofcoruse) of being total idiots. I mean if you want to have constructive discussions in the future I suggest a less aggressive attitude when writing. Regards,--BabbaQ (talk) 17:46, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I ask again

Hi, I have to ask again what should we do about the DYK category that is hidden. What is the point of having hidden categories when for example I am interested in reading other previous DYK mentioned articles. I asked a similar question yesterday got a few responses and then as usual the thread went dead. Come on guys!--BabbaQ (talk) 17:50, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Have you read Wikipedia:Recent additions? Every article that was ever on DYK is there.

Category:Passed DYK nominations also has thousands of DYKs (starting in summer 2011). rʨanaɢ (talk) 18:03, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

My concern is that no category is visible on the DYK articles talk pages. What is the point of having these categories if they are hard to find. A visible cateogyr on the talk pages would be preferable.--BabbaQ (talk) 18:06, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, if this were not DYK, I'd say just go over and post at Template talk:DYK talk and ask that coding on Template:DYK talk be added so that when a hook makes it to the Main page, it automatically adds Category:Wikipedia Did you know articles in the category section at the bottom of the article itself. But since things like that need consensus here, I'd say you word it as you choose and put it to a vote. Or, if you feel gutsy, just put in a {{edit protected}} request on the template talk page. — Maile (talk) 23:24, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

The DYK talk template already places the talk pages for DYK articles in that category. It's a hidden category because categories related to Wikipedia administration and maintenance are generally hidden. Registered users can see hidden categories. Why do you think it should be un-hidden, BabbaQ? --Orlady (talk) 02:02, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Babba: Wikipedia:Recent additions, which I already pointed out above, is prominently linked in the banner on the talk pages of DYK articles. rʨanaɢ (talk) 03:35, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

All I have to say is if it is hard for me who is interested in DYK to find this "hidden category" then it is hard for anyone. Why it should be un-hidden you ask.. then I ask why should it be hidden?--BabbaQ (talk) 12:29, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:Recent additions is not a category. We're talking about two different pages. rʨanaɢ (talk) 15:23, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

You can also go to Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-rendering and tick the box to show hidden categories, then you will see the category on all articles and talk pages. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:16, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

@BabbaQ:, Wikipedia:Recent additions is linked in large bold letters ("Archive", at the bottom of the DYK section) on the sixth most visited page on the entire internet. How much more visible do you want it to be? Mogism (talk) 21:24, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

• Do you mean the Category:Wikipedia Did you know articles, which is used on article talk pages, should be un-hidden? If that's the case, i see no problem in doing so. All categories on talk pages are maintenance categories which we expect only editors to see and know and use, just like how Category:C-Class Indian television articles of Low-importance is. But if you mean something else, i didn't understand that yet. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 09:31, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Something wrong

just below "Articles created/expanded on June 24" - the name & top of a nom is missing, or part of the one above mislocated, or something. Johnbod (talk) 16:57, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

That's Template:Did you know nominations/Tino di Geraldo. Somebody promoted it, and only part of the template got reformatted. — Maile (talk) 17:04, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

As usual, it's from someone failing to follow instructions. rʨanaɢ (talk) 17:18, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

I was wondering what happened. SL93 (talk) 19:53, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Increase to eight hooks?

Amount of nominations is around 200 right now. Amount of verified hooks is around 60. If we can't go back to three sets per day, how about eight per set under current trend? --George Ho (talk) 05:21, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't think an increase to eight per set will do much. If we're going to make a change, it should be back to three sets a day. The backlog is quite healthy—well up from the 120s—and it may well be time to start reducing it a bit with 21 hooks a day rather than 14. BlueMoonset (talk) 07:13, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Also 8 hooks would demand increase in ITNs or OTDs to balance the layout. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 09:19, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I was just about to start a new section suggesting we go back to 3 updates a day given the backlog. Good to see it already being proposed. —Bloom6132 (talk) 15:47, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

It should probably start after the 4 currently queued sets in the prep area, which may have been done with certain appearance times in mind.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:29, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't see any evidence of timed appearances in the prep areas, and there aren't any special occasion hooks noted, so there doesn't appear to be any reason to wait. I doubt anything will need to be moved once the switch has been made; we can take another look then and adjust if necessary. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:07, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

The evidence would be in people's mindsets. Yes some explicitly timed hooks come from waiting areas. I don't schedule that often, but when I do, I think about which ones would be best US Primetime and which might be best Europe primetime, even though the hooks are suppose to be balanced, some US hooks are more US than others. Honestly, however one of my big hooks is in the prep area now. It got pulled a week ago and with four Lichtenstein articles in it and so many of my Lichtenstein multi-hooks have made the stat archives, it is a surefire 10K view hook if it stays up for 12 hours. Since it got pulled and everyone waited 5 days to reschedule it, I was hoping it would still make the 12 hour display period.— Preceding unsigned comment added by TonyTheTiger (talk • contribs) 20:36, July 22, 2013 (UTC)

I don't think anyone has enough time to find a suitable hook for a prep area. If we go back to three updates a day, six or seven hooks per set? --George Ho (talk) 22:19, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

George, there were five full queues before the recent promotion of one of them. We seem to be keeping up, and we have done before with three updates. The switch to two sets a day was never supposed to be permanent. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:48, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

OK, sports fans, I've reset User:DYKUpdateBot/Time Between Updates to an 8-hour cycle. Since we're in between updates, this shouldn't cause any near-term disruption. However, if there are hooks slated for a particular date, their position in the queues may need to be adjusted. --Orlady (talk) 15:28, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

After no objection to my comments yesterday, I though we were going to wait until the pre-queued hooks ran.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:45, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Tony, I think I expressed my objections to waiting. Nothing you said after that seemed to require a reply. George, we should keep at seven hooks per set; it's better for main page balance. Orlady, thanks for taking care of it. I've just moved the 25 July 1943 hook from Prep 3 to Prep 1; it's the only special occasion hook there, and it will now run in early to mid-afternoon in Europe that day with Queue 3. (I'm not sure whether the sets are going to run fifteen minutes long or short as the bot works to get the rotation back to include midnight UTC, so it'll be either 75 minutes earlier or later than what currently shown when it runs.) BlueMoonset (talk) 17:57, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Nominations needing DYK reviewers

While we have 200 current nominations, 58 of which are approved, we do have five empty queues, and a great many older hooks that are still (or again) in need of reviewing. Thank you as always for your continuing assistance.

• June 2: Template:Did you know nominations/Hartland Moor
• June 4: Template:Did you know nominations/Pedro Pablo Caro
• June 5: Template:Did you know nominations/Persecution of Biharis in Bangladesh
• June 10: Template:Did you know nominations/Hongcheon County
• June 10: Template:Did you know nominations/Charles Wennergren
• June 12: Template:Did you know nominations/Tuya Soy
• June 12: Template:Did you know nominations/Infant clothing
• June 13: Template:Did you know nominations/Flashback (2013 video game)
• June 15: Template:Did you know nominations/Generación del 13
• June 16: Template:Did you know nominations/Eagle Peak (Wyoming)
• June 22: Template:Did you know nominations/Camden County Police Department
• June 23: Template:Did you know nominations/Anatomy
• June 28: Template:Did you know nominations/Opernhaus Wuppertal
• June 29: Template:Did you know nominations/Fredrik Pettersson
• June 29: Template:Did you know nominations/Nørreballe
• June 29: Template:Did you know nominations/Meka Whaitiri
• June 29: Template:Did you know nominations/The Voice UK discography
• July 1: Template:Did you know nominations/Ted Andrews
• July 1: Template:Did you know nominations/P Sathasivam
• July 2: Template:Did you know nominations/Kinjockity Ranch
• July 2: Template:Did you know nominations/Swami Vivekananda statue (Golpark, Kolkata)
• July 3: Template:Did you know nominations/Klonimir
• July 4: Template:Did you know nominations/2006 USG Sheetrock 400
• July 5: Template:Did you know nominations/Broforce
• July 5: Template:Did you know nominations/Michael Gathy, Athanasios Polychronopoulos, Marco Johnson and Matthew Ashton (six articles) ← I will be working on this one from tonight onwards. Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 11:26, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
• July 5: Template:Did you know nominations/James E. Dull
• July 7: Template:Did you know nominations/New York City Comptroller Election, 2013
• July 8: Template:Did you know nominations/William Browne (died 1514)

Please remember to cross off entries as you finish reviewing them (unless you're asking for further review), even if the review was not an approval. Many thanks! BlueMoonset (talk) 07:21, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

July 25

Good morning,
in three days it will be the 25 of July, which is the seventieth anniversary of the fall of Italian fascism and Mussolini. I wrote an article about it, and in the related nomination comment I asked if would have been possible for it to be published on that same day. The article in the meantime has been approved, but I am still puzzled about the process: in fact, it is written on the Special occasion holding area lead that one should not nominate articles there. What is then this area for, and how can one signal an article for publication on a special day? Thanks, Alex2006 (talk) 08:02, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Its just the way you did. Normal submission and approval process. After approval, the nomination is moved to the special area. Only take care to highlight your request more prominently. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 09:08, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! Then I think that the the guy who approved it forgot to move it there...should I do it? Alex2006 (talk) 09:17, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks again! Cheers, Alex2006 (talk) 09:50, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Question

I have noticed that several articles that has been mentioned at the DYK section has reached the threshold of 5000 views but is not mentioned at the DYKstats page. I have fixed those that I have found but as most articles mentioned at DYK does not reach the views needed wouldn't it be nice to have some better way of keeping track of those few articles that does so they can be mentioned at DYKstats?.--BabbaQ (talk) 14:41, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

As far as I know there is no system in place for doing this, and I don't see the need (as page views mean very little, as there are so many other things other than hook quality that affect page views--time of day and day of the week a hook was run relative to the geographical area in which it is most of interest, presence or absence of relevant current events, whether or not it had a picture, where the hook was in the queue, whether it was part of a 6- or 8-hour update, whether it spanned two days or one, whether it was pulled prematurely). But if you think this information would be useful as data for something, and have an idea how to implement a better way to keep track of views for all DYK hooks (preferably a way that is automated, because I doubt any human will be able to maintain interest in a task like this for more than a few months) you are welcome to try. rʨanaɢ (talk) 12:59, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I do monitor articles related to Germany, for 3 years, still find it interesting, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:45, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

But that's just a tiny subset of all the DYK views. Also I don't think collecting this data would be particularly useful unless someone also collected metadata (all the information I mentioned above--some of which could be extracted using automated tools, but much of which would require a person to sift through things; another one I just thought of is the presence of other click-attracting links in the hook)--if all that metadata were also available, someone could potentially run regressions and identify which factors contribute to hooks getting more views. Without that information, I don't see much use for collecting all the DYK views (other than personal gratification), but if someone finds a way to do it I don't see any harm either. rʨanaɢ (talk) 17:50, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

War War I Centenary

I thought I should post a reminder as we're now approaching the start of the year prior to the centenary. As discussed earlier in the year, there is a nomination page Wikipedia:World War I Centenary/DYK that is intended to work in the exact same way as April Fools nominations - i.e. they are nominated as normal on the nominations page in the main DYK section and then once approved they get moved over to there.

The start date for articles to qualify is the 28th of this month, and the hooks have to be about World War I in some manner or form and otherwise meet the DYK requirements (5x expansion, referencing etc) with the exception of the 5 day rule (although a qualifying article does have to be created on or after the 28th July - so not five days prior to that). I'm also going to post this over at the MilHist Project and see if it can get a mention in the signpost. Miyagawa (talk) 16:15, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Everything verified or just the hook?

At User talk:Tigerboy1966, an editor is giving me a lecture because I want everything at Template:Did you know nominations/Lethal Force to be verified. I'm just basing my reviews on what I've seen more experienced reviewers doing. SL93 (talk) 16:43, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Our rules don't require every single fact in the article to be verified -- only the hook fact. The rules do also require that the article be reasonably well-supplied with footnotes, which creates an expectation of solid sourcing throughout, but not a requirement that all facts be verified.

To my mind, this means that we don't need to delve into every detail in an article, and we shouldn't sweat it if we see details that are plausibly correct but aren't meticulously sourced. Some of my reviews do, however, dig into lack of sourcing for content that's not part of the hook fact. This may happen for a variety of reasons -- for example, when I see article content that doesn't make sense to me (leading me to think that there's an error in interpretation, or that the article needs to be revised for clarity), or when I check sources (either for the hook fact or to spot-check for issues like close paraphrasing) and find that the sources contradict statements in the article. When I see problems with sourcing for content that's not part of the hook fact, I dig deeper because I don't think that DYK should feature articles that have obvious problems.

Some of the horse-related facts that you questioned seem to be based on sport-related statistics. Those sources (and there are similar issues for other sports) don't always make sense to the uninitiated, but specialists can interpret things that aren't obvious to the rest of us. Sometimes we need to AGF the interpretations made by specialists in articles about sports, same as we might AGF a translation of a foreign-language source. I haven't delved into it, but the amount of sourcing and the types of sources cited in that Lethal Force article look OK to me. --Orlady (talk) 17:10, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

The main page says different - Articles for DYK should conform to the core policies of Verifiability, Living Person Biographies and Copyright." SL93 (talk) 17:13, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

It isn't just statistics. It did not say that he "ran four times as a two-year-old without winning and how the horse began racing, it did not say that he was "one of the leading sprinters in the world", it was not said that Adam Kirby rode him for the first time, and a quote is not cited. SL93 (talk) 17:16, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

The four losing races as a two-year-old and the first race with Adam Kirby riding him are included in this race record. The "leading sprinter" fact is supported by this source in the article body. (Facts in the lead section generally aren't footnoted, since the lead is merely supposed to summarize the body.) I don't see any unattributed quotations in the article. --Orlady (talk) 17:31, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

"I'm really, really pleased. We've always had a lot of respect for this horse and, to be fair to him, he's always ran his race without ever winning", while Cox commented "I'm thrilled for everyone. It's just amazing - this is what it's all about. Adam is such a brilliant rider, but it's fantastic for the whole team at home. When he sent him on, it was explosive." SL93 (talk) 17:33, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't see a problem. The quotations are cited to footnote 16. I found them there.[1] --Orlady (talk) 17:39, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

One of the world's leading sprinters cannot be inferred from the body. SL93 (talk) 17:33, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

The article body says "Following the race, Lethal Force was rated the best sprinter in the world following the retirement Black Caviar" and the statement is sourced. --Orlady (talk) 17:36, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Alright, but there were other things that the creator fixed which were indeed not referenced. Also, if only the hook needs to be verified, I suggest removing it from the DYK main page. SL93 (talk) 17:38, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

OK, so there were other errors that were fixed. That's good. At this point, the article deserves to be given a passing review in DYK. --Orlady (talk) 17:42, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree, but only when the quote is fixed. SL93 (talk) 17:43, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

The quotations are appropriately cited. --Orlady (talk) 17:47, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Alright. I passed it. SL93 (talk) 17:50, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

First, the DYK rules do say that articles must conform with core policies, but second, how can reviewers ascertain that expansion or length rules are met if the text has been expanded based on non-reliable sources? In one instance, a DYK ran on the mainpage that didn't even meet notability, because not a single reliable source existed. When text is padded up based on blogs and other non-reliable sources, expansion and length are not met; without at least some look at the sourcing, reviewers cannot be saying that DYK rules are met. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:40, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Then it needs to be clarified instead of being catch all. SL93 (talk) 17:43, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Orlady, I saw the dispute heating up on Tigerboy's talk page and just went over that article (I'm a member of WikiProject Equine and WikiProject Horse racing) As someone who has never saw that article before, it clearly passes DYK as I understand it (BTW I have over 30 DYKs with QPQs and created over 176 articles, plus have multiple GAs and FAs, just FYI). Tigerboy1966 is a very experienced wikipedia user with far more DYKs and new articles than I have! I reviewed the hook and it's clearly sourced, to reliable sources (newspapers and race reports from respected horse racing data sources, and for a new DYK, it's actually quite well-sourced. SL93 seems to be holding this article to something that isn't even WP:V standard, as when I have reviewed some sources he had issues with, like you just did, they clearly verified what they were supposed to verify (albiet with a lot of abbreviations and jargon typical of horse racing reports). at this point, I don't know if I'm now involved and can't pass it, but it is ready to pass, IMHO. Perhaps you can approve it? Montanabw^(talk) 17:50, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Montanabw, there were things that were not in any references which the creator had no problem fixing. SL93 (talk) 17:52, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:DYK statement should be removed or changed

Ignoring any issues related to the article Lethal Force, I have been told that only the hook needs to be verified. The DYK page says "Articles for DYK should conform to the core policies of Verifiability, Living Person Biographies and Copyright." Orlady and Montanabw said different, that only the hook needs to be verified. Sandy Georgia said that it should only relate to unreliable sources. The sentence either needs to be reworded or removed. I would have no problem having every fact be verified because the rule has been on the DYK main page for years. Please stop the lecturing or change the sentence. SL93 (talk) 17:57, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I was lectured for not following an unwritten rule when promoting and now I am being lectured for following a written rule when reviewing. SL93 (talk) 18:03, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:DYK#gen4 ("within policy") covers this. If an article doesn't meet WP:V you can tag it as such and point out on the nomination that the article doesn't meet a policy. However, you should note that WP:V doesn't require inline citations in all contexts (inline citations always preferred, but there are only a few cases where they're mandated). In a case where a particular fact was originally sourced to an end-of-article reference but you or someone else comes in and thinks it needs an inline footnote, then the editor should just add the inline footnote. rʨanaɢ (talk) 18:14, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

That says nothing about tagging it. I am really getting frustrated because with this, I apparently need to follow a mix of written and unwritten rules. SL93 (talk) 18:16, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Tagging is not a DYK procedure, it's just something I mentioned. If an article has problems that are beyond what you can fix quickly (either because the changes are controversial or the problems are rampant) then you tag the problem, that is just basic Wikipedia know-how. Tagging or not tagging is really not relevant to the present discussion. The rule I was pointing out refers to whether the article meets policy, not whether the article has been tagged as meeting or not meeting policy. rʨanaɢ (talk) 21:33, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

[EC] Not all rules can be spelled out in precise detail. Some "rules" need to be understood as principles, not merely as punchlists.

The core policies do apply. Regarding verifiability, reviewers should not accept nominations that have identifiable problems with verifiability. However, reviewers aren't expected to go over the article with a fine-tooth comb to verify that every fact in the article is fully supported by correct citations to reliable sources. That's a level of review that is conducted for Featured Article nominations, not for DYK. Additionally, DYK reviewers are expected to check for issues with BLP and copyright. --Orlady (talk) 18:23, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

The problem is that what both you and Rjanag said was in enough detail for what is needed. It doesn't need to be precise. They aren't expected to, but they should be allowed to. SL93 (talk) 18:28, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Agree with Orlady. It's not necessary to go through every statement to check WP:V, but it is helpful to scan the sources to make sure there are no blogs, etc and that reliable sources are used. If not, we can't know the article meets either core policies or expansion and length rules. I would add, though, that it is important to look at BLP statements and MEDRS compliance ... we shouldn't be putting anything on the main page that has a BLP vio, or faulty medical info. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:39, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Funny stuff

According to his tweet, Clive Thompson wants a 4,000 word article about Sharknado - On July 11, "I am hoping to wake up tomorrow and spend breakfast reading over a 4,000-word Wikipedia entry on Sharknado." On July 17, "Okay, we're up to about 600 words now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharknado … Not enough, people. Not enough." Just thought that I would share. SL93 (talk) 21:02, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

• (He does know that even a featured article on the film would likely top out at 2,500 words, give or take, right?) It's interesting that he's paying attention, I must admit. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:47, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

How to add to DYKSTATS

I'm not sure how to properly add Sharknado to WP:DYKSTATS. The number of views for July 22, the day that the article was on the main page, was 28,590. SL93 (talk) 04:07, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Do it boldly, enter in the July section, see how others look, sort by the views. It's sortable by the other elements (views/hour) also. I will watch;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:33, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I started filling it out, but I don't know how to find the views per hour. SL93 (talk) 06:42, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I found out how. SL93 (talk) 06:48, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but that's not correct. The value to use cannot be determined today. See Wikipedia:DYKSTATS#Rules. I've reverted. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 07:10, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

What I do is enter the first day, add the correction the next day. What's wrong with that? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:14, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

This is a special case of an article which has had a very significant number of views prior to the DYK, so one needs to subtract the average of the views from the surrounding days. I guess if you wanted it up right now, you could subtract the previous day's value of 13332, and then adjust it again tomorrow. And here's where I'm not sure how it works in this special case: I think that, depending on the time it ran, there may be an additional adjustment the day after that. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 07:28, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Special case accepted, but does the "exact" number really matter? If yes, for what? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:00, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

You're probably right, but I wouldn't have any idea of what to do. I knew that Sharknado was a new film so would likely receive a lot of views, but I wasn't expecting this. SL93 (talk) 14:04, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

25 July again

Sorry to disturb again,:-)
but I just noticed that the queues for July 25th are now full, and my article DYK 25 Luglio, although in the special occasion area, as not been considered for DYK publication...Is there a special reason for that? Thanks, Alex2006 (talk) 07:38, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Actually, it appears to be in Prep 3. Its template just doesn't seem to have been coded to remove it from the Special Holding area. — Maile (talk) 12:19, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! Alex2006 (talk) 12:53, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Like to request a second look

Template:Did you know nominations/Press coverage of the Armenian Genocide was recently promoted. The article appears to be a POV fork inappropriate for inclusion in DYK. 1. The main content (the list) is completely unsourced, 2. There is no real discussion of the subject of the article (other than a claim that newspaper coverage was highest during the genocide and then dipped afterward--but nothing like Press Coverage of Iraq war or other news coverage articles). 3. The sample of titles are skewed to one POV. Let's look at 1922 where the only title included is "The Terrible Turk". Why is that title selected when other "press coverage" includes from 1922 about the Armenian genocide: "Citizens are safe in Constantinople" (Jan 1922- NY Times), "MORE TURK MASSACRES REPORTED IN NEAR EAST" (Feb 1922- Washington Post), "ARMENIANS NOT MASSACRED: Hughes and Davis Report Story of Constantinople outrage False" (I am disgusted by this early denial, but, April 1922- NY Times), "Quo Vadis?" (April 1922- NY Times). And others. I'd appreciate if some second experienced DYKer checked the article again to make sure they don't think it is simply a POV list. Thank you. AbstractIllusions (talk) 11:59, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I promoted it because it didn't seem POV to me. I thought that it just looked like a plain list of press coverage. If the coverage is considered POV, I still doubt that it was meant. Both the creator and the nominator should probably be notified of this discussion. I know that if I was being discussed as inserting my personal viewpoint into articles, I would like to try defending myself. SL93 (talk) 13:35, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I put a notice on the talk page of both. — Maile (talk) 14:17, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

(EC) I have pulled the article for further debate. Speaking personally though, I think the hook is sensationalist, and quite frankly I have never seen an article consisting of a list of newspaper articles and I have to question its encyclopaedic value, contemporary newspaper reports are often totally wrong and who decides which reports are added to the list and which are excluded? So yes, I think this one has issues. Gatoclass (talk) 13:37, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

There is also an issue of "newness" on this one. It was created July 1 as a one-sentence lead and a listing of newspaper articles, subsequently expanded until its nom in July 18. DYK says noms older than 5 days can be accepted, but I posted the history stats on the nom template for reference. — Maile (talk) (see below...it was moved from userspace on July 12)— Maile (talk) 17:59, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I wonder if a special case could be made. It was a 5x expansion when it was expanded from the 391 characters that it was on July 12. The current prose size is 2,674 characters, but an exact 5x expansion would have been 1,955 characters. SL93 (talk) 14:18, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

What I mean is that this July 13 edit should not be included because only wikimarkup was added. SL93 (talk) 14:33, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

July 14 was not an expansion. Only wikimarkup was removed. SL93 (talk) 14:43, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Ah, it was moved to mainspace on July 16. SL93 (talk) 14:46, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Actually, the history shows it was moved from user space on July 12. The July 16 move was a move within mainspace to a more article title. — Maile (talk)

• Perhaps I'm being pedantic but shouldn't there be an inline citation to the hook (the bit about the babies as this is a particularly extreme claim)? It looks as if it is the 1915 press report in the Daily Star of October 22, but that is 'baby' rather than 'babies'. SagaciousPhil - Chat 15:14, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Unrelated, this is what I like about Wikipedia. I have never heard the word pedantic used, so I looked it up and learned a new word in the process. Related, I'm not sure if the hook can be properly verified now because of the bigger issues. SL93 (talk) 15:18, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

So, in Wikipedia-Speak, does pedantic mean POINTy? — Maile (talk) 21:50, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand why you're mentioning that. I don't see anyone trying to disrupt Wikipedia to make a point. SL93 (talk) 22:00, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

It was a joke. That obviously just fell flat. At Wikitionary the word pedantic says, "..overly concerned with formal rules and trivial points of learning." Which is what I interpret when people say "that's kind of POINTy", and whoever they're posting for is overly concerned with stuff like that just to illustrate their point. — Maile (talk)

Oh, Ok. I just interpret it as being an asshole. SL93 (talk) 22:11, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for the confusion. — Maile (talk) 22:17, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

It's partly my fault. I'm not used to jokes on Wikipedia. The last joke that I saw was my own that I received a barnstar of good humor for...in 2010. SL93 (talk) 22:20, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

• FYI, I've sent this article to AfD. DoctorKubla (talk) 17:27, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Anti-Muslim violence in India

Does anyone else want to take a look at this fairly controversial nomination for Anti-Muslim violence in India? Do others agree that ALT2 meets our standards and could run on the front page? Thanks, groupuscule (talk) 19:08, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I thought the whole article is needed to meet some standard and not just the hook. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 06:29, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

I would still like to take another look, but I haven't been able to find much time to devote to this project over the last three weeks or so. Last time I looked I couldn't see too many problems but what I really want to do is compare the article with an existing article, which I think is called "Religious violence in India" or something, to make sure that there isn't too much overlap because if there is the content could not be considered new and the article would therefore not be eligible for DYK. Gatoclass (talk) 13:17, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

A problem article

I nominated Template:Did you know nominations/Mary Magdalene (1914 film) for DYK because I assumed good faith that the creator was completely basing it on what was said on offline references. There were parts that were originally sourced to other Wikipedia articles, but I thought of that as a mistake by a new article creator. Since then, the editor added original research based on the online sources that I added, which makes me doubtful of the offline references. The editor also used an edit summary twice which said that he was fixing grammar, but he was actually ruining the grammar. He changed the correction of priviledges to privileges back to the wrong spelling while referring to fixing the grammar in the edit summary. I am very wary of someone reviewing the article and then using AGFtick on the offline references. SL93 (talk) 22:43, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Alright, now I see that he is likely a problematic editor. He said that he was fixing grammar when he substantially changed a big paragraph on another article. SL93 (talk) 22:47, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I withdrew it. SL93 (talk) 23:07, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Template talk page too long

Template talk:Did you know, which transcludes every active nomination, is very long, and so slow to load. Can we split it, so that the list of nominations is transcluded on one page, and the "how to" stuff is on another? People wanting the latter should not have to download all of the former. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:54, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

We could, but the "Instruction" section is not very long and I have my doubts that removing it would make much difference to the page loading time. It loads quickly enough on my PC BTW. Gatoclass (talk) 13:12, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Mine loads fine as well. I think that we would first need proof that it is a problem of the majority. SL93 (talk) 13:15, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Problems that affect a minority are still problems. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:24, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

You have that the wrong way wound. Removing the list of nominations would make the instructions much quicker to load. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:24, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Hmmm, you may have a point there. Gatoclass (talk) 13:26, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Try non-Microsoft browsers. --69.157.46.84 (talk) 13:19, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm using Chrome. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:24, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Queue and Prep areas look rather empty

Pls load. --69.157.46.84 (talk) 13:19, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Deadline

I had in mind that the deadline for DYK nominations was 7 days, not 5. I wanted to nominate Geoffrey Binnie, which was written 6 days ago. Is there any wriggle-room? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:20, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

It's mainly to stop reviewers being overwhelmed, but if you nominate it I'll review it.--Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 13:26, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Go ahead. WP:DYKSG#D9. --69.157.46.84 (talk) 13:29, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

25 Luglio

Pls remove this hook from the main page. It's on OTD at the same time! --69.157.46.84 (talk) 13:29, 25 July 2013 (UTC)