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This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Wikipedia policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. This may also apply to some groups. Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. 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Current disputes

Talk:Erwin Rommel#About_the_revert_of_my_1_Feb_2016_correction

– Closed as failed. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by 209.179.22.107 on 00:55, 13 February 2016 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Talk:Erwin Rommel#About the revert of my 1 Feb 2016 correction (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Rklawton (talk · contribs) Gorthian (talk · contribs) 209.179.86.123 (talk · contribs) 209.179.22.107 (talk · contribs) Camino 2-1-2 (talk · contribs) Dispute overview On 1 Feb 2015 I made a good faith edit to the Erwin Rommel article where I corrected four factual errors and included one footnote. Since the article is semi-protected and my contribution was from my IP address instead of a named account, my edit was pended and had to be approved before it went live. Later on 1 Feb, user Rklawton reverted it, with the rather condescending comment of, "Let's not provide readers with bad translations - especially when the German is both clear and linked." In fact my translations were correct, the German was NOT clear (hence my corrections), and the link is irrelevant, which Rklawton apparently doesn't know. On 2 Feb I politely asked RKLawton on the article Talk page why he reverted my edit. His answer was non responsive, referring me to his vague edit comment. Since I had made several corrections, i didn't know which one(s) he meant, which made it impossible for me to understand his point (especially since I had no errors). Since he was essentially unresponsive, I tried the edit again on 5 Feb. At this point another editor (not RKlevin) reverted it. Oddly, when Gorthian reverted it, he cited WP:BRD, even though his own action ran counter to that guideline. After that, RKLawton sent me a message to my Talk page (209.179.86.123) threatening to block me, again without showing any sign of willingness to discuss my edit. On 7 Feb I made another request to him to discuss it but as of this writing he has refused to do so. I should add here that this isn't one of those abstract philosophical disputes involving shades of gray or it-depends-on-your-paradigm kind of problem. This is a rather simple factual dispute that should be resolved fairly easily if both parties can discuss it, the way Wikipedia's policies require editors to do. Please note that that my edit was done as IP 209.179.86.123, and my IP address was subsequently changed to 209.179.22.107. To avoid any more possible confusion, I am using my account name of Camino 2-1-2 for the rest of this DRN. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Since Rklawton has refused to engage in a meaningful discussion there hasn't really been anything i could do. How do you think we can help? Get RKLawton to discuss the matter. Since this is a fairly basic question it shouldn't be that hard to reach a consensus, if he is willing to listen to the other side. Summary of dispute by Rklawton Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. As noted in my edit summary, the IP provided several bad translations and I reverted them. The IP then demanded an explanation regardless of the fact that his/her edits and my edit summary made the problem self evident. I then left town for a week (and noted so accordingly) for a family funeral. The IP continues to make demands and behave belligerently rather than collegially. Rklawton (talk) 04:19, 13 February 2016 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Gorthian Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Erwin Rommel happened to be listed on Articles with edits awaiting review, which I monitor infrequently; the latest edit had been "pending" for several hours, so I checked it out. From the edit summaries, it was clear there was a dispute between two editors. 209.179.86.123 had added material, Rklawton reverted it, then 209.179.86.123 had reverted it back. I saw it this way: 209.179.86.123 had been bold and added material, then had been reverted, so the next step was to discuss. I reverted 209.179.86.123, citing WP:BRD, and said "take it to the talk page". I know almost nothing about the article or its subject, and I have no opinion on the material added. I don't think I'll be any use in a content dispute. But there's my bit of involvement.— Gorthian (talk) 06:34, 13 February 2016 (UTC) Talk:Erwin Rommel#About_the_revert_of_my_1_Feb_2016_correction discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Volunteer note - The filing party (an unregistered editor) has not listed themselves as a party to the case, and has not notified the other two editors. There has been discussion on the talk page. It is the responsibility of the filing party to notify the other editors (and also to list themselves). Robert McClenon (talk) 02:26, 13 February 2016 (UTC)  To DRN volunteers: I encouraged the filing party to create an account, so they could follow the case easier.--In veritas (talk) 04:15, 13 February 2016 (UTC)  Volunteer note: Does anyone know if we can bring in a third opinion about the above mentioned German translations? In veritas (talk) 03:51, 18 February 2016 (UTC)  Volunteer note: Filing IP has talked to me about creating an account soon, once that happens I will open this case. In veritas (talk) 05:00, 20 February 2016 (UTC)  Volunteer note: Moderation may start. The filing IP is now registered account Camino 2-1-2. Let's keep this civil and focused on the content. Since this seems to boil down to a difference in translation opinions, would each editor explain to me and each other, hopefully word by word, why they disagree with the other's translation? In veritas (talk) 04:13, 22 February 2016 (UTC) First Statement by Camino 2-1-2 (formerly IP 209.179.86.123) First off, I can't help but point out that in my request I wrote, "Hello, Rklawton, could you please explain...," and if that is to be considered demanding and belligerent, then I apologize. I had no idea anyone could consider it as such but I guess you learn something new every day. Since RKLawton even now refuses to explain what his objections are I guess I'll have to go through every one, starting at the bottom of my original edit and working my way up. (I assume that since he said nothing about the footnote I included he has no objections to that, but if he does, I hope he'll say something.) I changed "Oberkommando des Heeres (OKH; German High Command)," to, "Oberkommando des Heeres (OKH; Army High Command)," as I thought including "German" was rather redundant, since no one would assume it was the French High Command (although, considering how ineptly the French conducted themselves, it does look like the German were directing the French forces.). But the High Command of what? The Navy? The Luftwaffe? Oh yes, it does include, "des Heeres," so I feel perfectly confident in translating that as "Army High Command". (Do you see how it's done RKLawton? You state exactly what you think is wrong and then explain why and how it should be changed.) If he challenges the veracity of that I hope he'll explain why. Next we come to "Generalleutnant Heinz Guderian," which I changed to, "General der Panzertruppe Heinz Guderian". I hope RKLawton doesn't think this was a translation as I was simply correcting a factual mistake. Guderian was promoted to the higher rank in 1938 (October, I believe), which is in fact before the war even started. My next change involved Erich von Manstein but that is now irrelevant. A subsequent rewrite of that paragraph sent Manstein to the cornfield and any issue with that one is now moot. This brings me to the last, and certainly not the least of these translation issues. Here I changed, "Rommel was promoted to Generalmajor on..." to, "Rommel was promoted to Generalmajor (Brigadier General) on..." In order to explain this one I would like to ask RKLaton to fill in the chart below, which will be instrumental in determining in what way we disagree on this point. All he need to do is copy the wikitable text (the part from "{| class=wikitable" and "|}", inclusive) to his answer space and fill in the empty boxes. I think doing that will be instrumental in resolving this remaining translation question. US / German Officer Comparison Chart Off. Desig U.S.Rank German Rank Notes O-6 O-7 O-8 O-9 O-10 O-11 Please let me know if there are any problems. __Camino 2-1-2 (talk) 05:02, 25 February 2016 (UTC) Rommel's article is not the place for pedantics or lessons in German military rank. The correct and only translation for Generalmajor is Major General. The equivalent rank may be interesting for some readers and they can follow the link to the Generalmajor article if they want more information. Oddly enough, the Generalmajor article states that the US Army equivalent is also Major General. Rklawton (talk) 12:00, 25 February 2016 (UTC) Start of Second Round  Volunteer note: Discussion has made progress. Camino 2-1-2 does the above comment satisfy your questions? Rklawton are you feeling that this discussion is proceeding in a good direction for you? In veritas (talk) 06:06, 26 February 2016 (UTC)  Volunteer note: Pinging them to remind them of the case @Camino 2-1-2 and Rklawton: In veritas (talk) 19:04, 26 February 2016 (UTC) Camino 2-1-2 Comment I'm sorry, I didn't mean to keep everyone waiting. I need to make some points about translating. The first thing is to not literally parse the term instead of translating it as a concept-to-concept, which is the real trick of translating. Since RKLawton never actually explained what he was thinking, I can only presume that his thought process ran something like this: Generalmajor = General major = Major General. "Translating" it this way is wrong since you are not translating one concept to another. This reminds of the first attempts to use crude computers as translation machines decades ago. They would translate a common English expression into a foreign language and then translate the result back into English. One failed example was the the expression, "Out of sight, out of mind," which when translated into Chinese and then back into English came out as, "Invisible idiot." That's an example of something literally parsed instead of translating a concept. That is why I suggested the chart as a way to help make the point easier to understand. He didn't fill it out (he may not have known the correct answers) so I'll do it to help make my point. US / German Officer Comparison Chart Off. Desig U.S.Rank German Rank Notes O-6 Colonel Oberst O-7 Brigadier General Generalmajor O-8 Major General Generalleutnant O-9 Lieutenant General General der Waffengattung (Service Arm) An honorific title depending on service arm, thus General der Infantrie, General der Artillerie, etc. O-10 General Generaloberst O-11 General of the Army Generalfeldmarschall From this chart we can see why it's incorrect to translate Generalmajor to Major General. When you translate the ranks you go from position to position (left to right), not name to name. After all, the U.S. Army and Navy both have a rank called Captain - would anyone claim that the two are the same position and hold the same amount of authority? Of course not; even though they're both Captains, that doesn't make them the same thing. Look at it this way. Suppose the article had the following factually correct sentence: "On 23 Aug 1939, Rommel was promoted from Oberst to Generalmajor." Now if that statement were written entirely in English as RKLawton would have it, it would read like this: "On 23 Aug 1939 Rommel was promoted from Colonel to Major General." For the average English speaking reader this would make it look like he was promoted from Colonel to the two star General rank with him completely bypassing the one star General rank. (Refer to the chart above if necessary.) Would that be acceptable? Is it the purpose of Wikipedia to mislead readers or confuse them? I should hope not. Why not put factually accurate information in the article? I'm pretty sure Wikipedia policy expects editors to do that. But to recap, let me address RKLawton's response point by point. He wrote: "Rommel's article is not the place for pedantic or lessons in German military rank." I agree wholeheartedly. However, it is the place to put factually accurate information that does not unnecessarily mislead the reader. "The correct and only translation for Generalmajor is Major General." That is absolutely incorrect as I have shown above. "The equivalent rank may be interesting for some readers and they can follow the link to the Generalmajor article if they want more information." Wikipedia policy is to not unnecessarily require readers to follow links if the correct information can be given on the spot. For example, when the word "Blitzkrieg" is used it is often followed by "(lightning warfare)". While it's certainly appropriate to make it a wikilink so that readers can go to the related article for more information, it is also appropriate to give a quick translation so that the reader is not FORCED to go to another page just to find out what it means. "Oddly enough, the Generalmajor article states that the US Army equivalent is also Major General." Well, a proper reading of that article would show that it doesn't apply to Rommel. That article applies to the modern West German Army which was reformed after 1955 when it joined NATO and adopted the NATO command structure, which is almost identical to the traditional U.S. Army command structure. So sending the reader to that article actually misleads the reader, as RKLawton as already experienced. Hopefully I haven' made this too confusing. I simply had no way of knowing how much detail I needed to go into to explain my position. Thanks again. __Camino 2-1-2 (talk) 04:40, 27 February 2016 (UTC) Rklawton Comment  Volunteer note: @Rklawton: Rklawton, it has been two days since Camino 2-1-2 has responded, and the DRN board likes to keep responses every 2 days. Regards, In veritas (talk) 02:17, 1 March 2016 (UTC)  Volunteer note: @Rklawton: Please respond, this case was archived, and I had to save it. In veritas (talk) 04:20, 3 March 2016 (UTC) Awaiting Camino 2-1-2's response. No rush. Rklawton (talk) 22:11, 26 February 2016 (UTC) Translating the link as Camino did would be both confusing and misleading. Providing a lesson in German ranks on Rommel's page would also be inappropriate as the article is about Rommel. Lastly, comparing Rommel's German rank to U.S. military rank would make the article America-centric, and that is most definitely not appropriate. It would be more appropriate to use Rommels' actual rank and let readers click on the link if they want more information about it. Rklawton (talk) 15:33, 3 March 2016 (UTC) Start of Third Round  Volunteer note: With responses in from the last round, we can now move into the third round of moderated discussion.  Volunteer note: Pinging @Camino 2-1-2: to tell him or her that we are ready for his or hers response to Rklawton's response.  Volunteer note: It seems like we are nearing a stalemate, hopefully a solution will be appearing soon. In veritas (talk) 17:41, 3 March 2016 (UTC) Camino 2-1-2 Comment I'm not sure what he meant when he wrote, "Translating the link as Camino did would be both confusing and misleading," I don't understand what he meant by "link." What link? I don't remember doing anything of the sort. If he really meant "rank" instead of link, then no, I have already shown this isn't right. I could take RKLawton's own argument and and show why he's wrong by his own actions. If we leave it his way then it "would be both confusing and misleading," (his words) because readers would incorrectly assume (as he did) that a Generalmajor is the same thing as a Major General. That's what makes this whole thing so bizarre: RKLawton is the living embodiment of the necessity of what I tried to do. He is proof that readers get confused by NOT translating it on the spot! And yet he insists on continuing the confusion. Why? "Providing a lesson in German ranks on Rommel's page would also be inappropriate as the article is about Rommel." I honestly have no idea of what he's talking about. No one is trying to teach anything of the sort. This is like saying that if someone writes, "Blitzkrieg (lightning warfare)" they are guilty of trying to teach readers German vocabulary. Complete and utter nonsense. As for the American-centric rank, I guess I'm guilty of assuming too much. Since RKLawton and I are both veterans of the U.S. Army, I used U.S. as a simple frame of reference. I had assumed that RKLawton knew that NATO and her allies around the globe use the same system. I'm dead certain that any English reader in the UK, Canada, Jamaica, Australia, and all parts in between would not scratch their head in bewilderment trying to figure out what the heck a Brigadier General is. As far as I can see, any question about being American-centric is just utter nonsense. Last, and certainly least, we come to his last point about clicking on the link to get more information. I have already explained about that up above where I noted that Wikipedia's policy is to not force readers to unnecessarily chase links when it can be provided on the spot. Oh, and I also pointed out that the linked article does not apply. Let me repeat that: the linked article does not apply. Do you understand that??? __Camino 2-1-2 (talk) 05:35, 7 March 2016 (UTC) Rklawton Comment If you'd like to teach a lesson on Nazi era military ranks, do it in an article dedicated to the subject. If it's linking to the "wrong" article, then fix it. However, it is entirely inappropriate to use Rommel's article to try to explain how Nazi era military ranks equated to modern U.S. military ranks. And there's an important distinction that Camino keeps conflating - translation v. equivalency. For the purposes of this article, we need neither (though a link is a good idea). However, if we're going to provide a translation at all, it should be literal. If we don't we're going to have readers saying "WTF?" and trying to change it. Our articles need to be clear and concise. Providing an equivalence is not clear. Explaining the equivalency in the article violates coatrack and is trivial to the article's subject. The only suitable solution is to skip the translation entirely and provide a link. All things considered, I'd recommend Camino to write the appropriate article if one doesn't exist. Rklawton (talk) 21:20, 9 March 2016 (UTC) Start of Fourth Round  Volunteer note: It seems like we are nearing a solution, and that most of the dispute revolves around what needs to appear on Rommel's page. For a third opinion, most articles describe a non-English person's rank in their language, with a link to what that rank would be equivalent to. In veritas (talk) 21:30, 10 March 2016 (UTC) That's the solution I've proposed. Rklawton (talk) 16:30, 15 March 2016 (UTC) @Camino 2-1-2: Comment Sorry about the delay - I'll put in a fuller statement a little later, I just wanted to keep the bot from automatically closing this. __Camino 2-1-2 (talk) 03:12, 15 March 2016 (UTC) I'm reminded of an old expression that goes something like, "I can explain it for you but I can't understand it for you." I have consistently refuted everything RKLawton has said by showing either its factual or logical errors. So far as I can see he has not done anything remotely close to that, preferring instead to simply issue pronouncements and not supporting them with facts or logic. In all honesty I have never been so perplexed by anyone like this. It's like trying to convince someone a square actually has four sides and not five. I have trouble writing a response to RKLawton because the points he brings up are just so laughably ridiculous I find it difficult to make a response. No, I am not advocating teaching "Nazi era military ranks," anymore than writing "blitzkrieg (lightning warfare)," is an attempt to teach German vocabulary. As for confusing 'translation v. equivalency," no, RKLawton has got it wrong again. Remember the example I gave above, of how the English proverb got mistranslated as "Invisible idiot"? Incredibly, RKLawton would have have agreed with this and said it was the proper translation! Unbelievable. That is why a literal translation would in fact mislead the reader, and be anything but clear and concise. Maybe he wants Wikipedia's article to include factually incorrect info but I don't. And I don't think any one else does either. And once again I'll point out (maybe the third time will be charm) that forcing readers to chase links instead of providing information on the spot is against Wikipedia policy. As for, "Explaining the equivalency in the article," I never suggested that. And as for, "The only suitable solution is to skip the translation entirely and provide a link," there are a million Wikipedia editors who know that doesn't make sense either. __Camino 2-1-2 (talk) 03:57, 16 March 2016 (UTC) Instead of mocking me, why not focus on the fact that your proposal simply isn't how it's done. See above. Rklawton (talk) 18:05, 16 March 2016 (UTC) I was not not trying to mock you. I was simply trying to point out that your arguments had no merit, a point anyone reading this "discussion" would agree with. The simple fact of the matter is that a Generalmajor is the same thing as a Brigadier General. That is not an opinion, it is an absolutely uncontroverted fact, something I proved above. Back when this all started I was 99.99% sure that you had made a simple, common mistake, (something we all (including myself) have done from time to time) and that once I explained the error to you, you would realize the mistake and we would be done. But instead of this, you continued with it and for what reason I cannot fathom. I challenge any intelligent person to read the above and see if they agree with you. The other problem with your responses is that you never support any of your assertions with facts or logic - you simply made statements and expect everyone to just agree with you. Your complete unwillingness to construct a logical argument makes it impossible to take your position seriously. __Camino 2-1-2 (talk) 17:37, 17 March 2016 (UTC) Rklawton Comment It's clear to me that Camino isn't participating in good faith. He wants Wikipedia to work his way and only his way. An RfC is the way to go if Camino remains obstinate with further sanctions if necessary. Rklawton (talk) 04:08, 22 March 2016 (UTC) Start of 5th Round  Volunteer note: It seems like we are at a stalemate. I will have to close this as failed soon if something does not change. I cannot take sides because I am the moderator, but once again I will reiterate it is common practice for people's military ranks to be in their native language with that military rank hyperlinked to an article about equivalency and the such. If Camino 2-1-2 wants to change this, an RfC might be an option. In veritas (talk) 04:31, 19 March 2016 (UTC)  Volunteer note: If I may: I have read through this case and the relevant article, and I would like to propose a compromise. If both editors agree to it then perhaps we can move on. I see both points - that the literal translation of Generalmajor is Major General, and the conceptual translation of Generalmajor is Brigadier General. The core issue is that the modern one-star rank of Brigadegeneral did not exist at that time, and instead, Generalmajor, which is now 2-star, was 1-star in WWII Nazi Germany. Perhaps if you emphasize this - that Generalmajor was equivalent to the current Brigadegeneral, it will resolve the concern. Jtrevor99 (talk) 17:34, 22 March 2016 (UTC) Or, to be more clear: US Off. Desig NATO Off. Desig U.S.Rank Nazi German Rank Modern German Rank O-6 OF-5 Colonel Oberst Oberst O-7 OF-6 Brigadier General Generalmajor Brigadegeneral O-8 OF-7 Major General Generalleutnant Generalmajor O-9 OF-8 Lieutenant General General der Waffengattung (Service Arm) Generalleutnant O-10 OF-9 General Generaloberst General O-11 OF-10 General of the Army Generalfeldmarschall (abolished 1945) Jtrevor99 (talk) 14:00, 24 March 2016 (UTC) That's not a compromise. That's what Camino wants to do - turn Rommel's article into a lesson in Nazi era Army ranks. However, as noted above, what we do here on Wikipedia is provide actual military ranks along with a link in case anyone is curious. Rklawton (talk) 22:03, 25 March 2016 (UTC) Discussion Since we may have gotten so deep in the weeds that we've lost sight of the forest for the trees (uhhh, a kind of mixed metaphor - sorry), let me reiterate the salient points of the matter: Was my translation factually correct and clear up a potential misinterpretation by the reader? YES. Is it the policy of Wikipedia that readers should not be forced to chase links for information that can provided on the spot? YES. Is there a relevant article in Wikpedia that does provide the information to readers? NO. Does what I propose unnecessarily burden the reader? NO. Everything I have written reflects the reality of these points. Everything that RKLawton has written has not. If I have not understood something please let me know as I really want to understand where I might be wrong. __Camino 2-1-2 (talk) 21:09, 19 March 2016 (UTC) The reality is that we do not translate military ranks - instead we provide a link. That's the reality. That's what we do - and you haven't suggested otherwise. What you propose is an unnecessary distraction from the subject of the article. Readers visit the article to learn about Rommel and not get a lesson in Nazi-era Army rank equivalents to modern NATO ranks. Rklawton (talk) 22:01, 25 March 2016 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:Tamils#Are Tamils a stateless nation or only Sri Lankan Tamils?

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Vatasura on 05:48, 10 March 2016 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Tamils#Are Tamils a stateless nation or only Sri Lankan Tamils? (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Vatasura (talk · contribs)
• 117.192.218.39 (talk · contribs)
• Kautilya3 (talk · contribs)
• Copperchloride (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Vatasura claim Tamils as a nation and as whole a stateless nation, but 117.192.218.39 claim Tamils in India are not stateless nation and Tamils in Sri Lanka are stateless nation.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

So far only discussed, no other steps made.

How do you think we can help?

Volunteers with experience in nationalism, ethnic or history can certainly enlighten us.

Summary of dispute by 117.192.218.39

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Kautilya3

I am not confident that this is issue is ripe for DRN. I have been mostly a bystander in that dispute, asking for reliable sources for the claim that Tamils in general form a stateless nation. I haven't yet seen one. It is possible that what constitutes a reliable source for the claim is itself disputed. If so, this dispute might just focus on pinning down what is required of a reliable source. For example, does the presence of a section on "Tamils" in the [Encyclopedia of Stateless Nations] imply that Tamils as a whole form a stateless nation? Personally, I think it would come as a rude shock to most Tamils in India if Wikipedia were to declare that they now form a stateless nation. This seems to me to be WP:OR of the highest order. - Kautilya3 (talk) 14:16, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Copperchloride

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Talk:Tamils#Are Tamils a stateless nation or only Sri Lankan Tamils? discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Volunteer note - There has been adequate discussion at the article talk page. The filing party has not notified the unregistered editor at any of the IP addresses that they have used. The filing party has the responsibility to notify the other editor. This case can be opened after proper notice has been given. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:00, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
• Volunteer note - Two other registered editors have been discussing at the article talk page and should be invited as parties to this request. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:27, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

All involved users are listed here and informed on their talk page. IP user was informed on 117.192.218.39. Vatasura (talk) 06:13, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

First statement by volunteer moderator

I am opening this case. Here are the usual ground rules. Do not edit the article while this discussion is in progress. Discussion should be here rather than on the article talk page. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not on contributors. Civility is mandatory everywhere in Wikipedia, and especially in dispute resolution, and overly long posts do not clarify issues. Everyone must check the status of this page at least every 48 hours. (There are no exceptions to the 48-hour rule.) Robert McClenon (talk) 20:16, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

I expect every editor to provide a brief restatement of their case. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:16, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

My question has to do with the statement that Sri Lankan Tamils are a stateless nation, but Indian Tamils are not. How can that be? Are Sir Lankan Tamils and Indian Tamils two different nationalities? If not, is there a question about the existence of Tamil-majority Indian states, which are not sovereign states because they are federated states? Robert McClenon (talk) 20:16, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

First statements by editors

Regarding the question, why are only Sri Lankan Tamils a stateless nation, why not Indian Tamils?, modern scholarship doesn't treat "nationhood" as being defined in textbooks. Rather it is defined on the ground, under the pushes and pulls of political and ideological pressures. India is a large multi-ethnic country with 20+ large ethnic groups, and myriads of smaller ones. It has been so for millennia. So the idea of ethnic nationalism simply doesn't work for India. Rather it is territorial nationalism, way back from 300 BC if we are to judge by Megasthenes's descriptions, that shapes India. Sri Lanka could have gone the same way. But it didn't. It has two major ethnic groups. The Tamils, who are a minority most of whom were recent arrivals, were "disenfranchised," according to this source. This gave rise to Tamil nationalism within Sri Lanka. So the comparison between Sri Lankan Tamils and Indian Tamils is like comparing apples and oranges. - Kautilya3 (talk) 16:43, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

References

Robert McClenon has raised good questions, to understand this, we have to look back at history. Tamils are a nation with a history of over 2000 years. Originally, Tamils ruled as an independent nation in Tamilakam and parts of Sri Lanka. During the colonial period, Tamils were defeated by the British and Tamil homeland was absorbed in British India and British Ceylon. This situation completely eradicated the sovereignty of Tamils and reduced them to a minority status under political model implemented by British. Since independence, Tamil separatist movements are suppressed in Sri Lanka and India

Tamils were a independent nation even during Ashoka rule in India.

Today, 77 million Tamils live around the world, but there is no sovereigne Tamil state that represents the interests of the Tamils, this situation makes Tamils as a whole a stateless nation. Tamils in India are called Indian Tamils, in Sri Lanka as Sri Lankan Tamils, in Britain as British Tamils, in Malaysia as Malaysian Tamils, that does not mean that they are different ethnic groups. Vatasura 03:07, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

References

Second statement by volunteer moderator

In general, articles in Wikipedia should be consistent with each other. That is, contradictions between articles should usually be resolved. The article on stateless nation defines a stateless nation as a people that are seen as a nation that do not have a sovereign state. Is there is agreement that the Sir Lankan Tamils and the Indian Tamils are a single nation? If so, how can a subgroup of this nation be stateless according to the current definition? If modern scholarship does not treat "nationhood" as defined in textbooks, then what reliable sources should we use to define it? Alternatively, if the definition of stateless nation is too rigid, then should stateless nation be redefined to have a standard that includes the Sri Lankan Tamils and not the Indian Tamils? If so, how should the stateless nation article be reworked? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:31, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Second statements by editors

I think the page stateless nation needs to be improved and linked to other Wikipedia pages. It explains well, what is a stateless nation and also mentions different situations. A nation without a sovereign state is a stateless nation, that is the bitter truth. Why should we hide the truth, just because its too rigid? There was even a poll to delete the page sateless nation, but it was kept because of its unique concept. There is no doubt that Tamils in mainland and island are ethnically, linguistically, culturally, traditionally a single nation. I think most sources on Wikipedia comes from text books, we should not make it complicated.Vatasura 21:02, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

The article on stateless nation is a stub-class article that has been templated for citations for 2 years. What exists is full of WP:OR and poor-quality writing. It can't be a standard bearer for anything. It should certainly not trump the standard Wikipedia requirements of Verifiability. To call something a "stateless nation" there should be reliable sources that call it so along with a thorough discussion of why it is a stateless nation. We can't use "stateless nation" as if it were a standard term with a dictionary meaning. "Nation" is a loaded term in the current day terminology, and we can't willy nilly call every ethnic group a "nation," without support from reliable sources. - Kautilya3 (talk) 23:39, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Third statement by volunteer moderator

The purpose of dispute resolution should be improving the article. The article states, with two sources, that Tamils are one of the largest national groups without a state. What does any editor who wants to change the article want it to say, and what reliable sources will they provide? Robert McClenon (talk) 21:55, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Third statements by editors

In the first place, the statement occurs as a self-assured assertion in the lead, without any discussion or elaboration in the body. There is no in-line attribution either. So it is being presented as if it were a universal fact, on the basis of two weak sources. The first source, a WP:TERTIARY one, essentially describes the ethnic community of Tamils without making any particular claim to them forming a `stateless nation'. The second source doesn't have the term `stateless nation' in it at all, as far as Google Books can tell. I have no idea what the editor found in the second source.

• On the other hand, if you do search for "Tamils stateless nation" on Google Books, you get tons of sources describing quite explicitly Sri Lankan Tamils forming a `stateless nation'. Apparently, the editor is not interested in any of these sources.
• There are also plenty of sources that indicate that the whole enterprise of `stateless nations' is a red herring, especially for South Asia. One source says: South Asia, in this sense, offers yet another advance in the study of nationalism, and this pertains to the flawed assumption regarding conjugality between state and nation. According to the source, the South Asian model where multi-ethnic groups coexist within a federal polity is an advance over the European nation-state model.
• Another source, actually used in the Stateless nations article, says: Whatever the numbers one might wish to use, nations that have states are only a small fraction of all nations, but we insist in associating nations with states and in regarding the majority of nations that are stateless as problematic or lacking something. This source says, in the content of the Kurdish question, one should avoid the ambiguous use of such terms as `proto-nation' and `stateless nation' .

Comment on content, not on contributors. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:24, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
It does not appear to me that the editor has surveyed the literature with an open mind, and set out to describe its contents from a neutral point of view. He is just grinding his own axe.

For me, there are three options:

• We can state that the Sri Lankan Tamils have been described as a `stateless nation' for which reliable sources are easy to find.
• If the issue is to be discussed for all Tamils, then a section needs to be added in the body describing all points of view and then the lead can summarise them in a sentence or two.
• Or, we omit it altogether. - Kautilya3 (talk) 23:39, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

References

Stateless nation is not a made-up word but a political term. This question can only be answered by neutrality, because it is a national question. Indian nationalists would argue that Indian Tamils are not a stateless nation. Sri Lankan nationalists would argue that Sri Lankan Tamils are not a stateless nation. Tamil nationalists would argue that Tamils are a stateless nation. To claim that Indian Tamils are not stateless nation and Sri Lankan Tamils are stateless nation makes no sense. A nation is born by the national consciousness. Tamils consider themselves a nation otherwise there would be no Tamil nationalism. Tamils can not be compared with other ethnic groups in India. Not all ethnic groups in India have a national consciousness or consider themselves to be a nation. On Wikipedia we find not even a page about Telugu nationalism, Gujarati nationalism or Oriya nationalism. The Encyclopedia of the Stateless Nations by James Minahan which one of the sources, list Tamils as a single stateless nation. The statement "That Tamils are one of the largest national groups without a state" is since 2014 on the page Tamils. It was neither removed immediately or opposed by most users. Tamils is an active wiki page and when someone writes something absurd, it will be removed immediately.Vatasura (talk) 04:42, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

Tamils consider themselves a nation otherwise there would be no Tamil nationalism. That seems like backward reasoning. And it is false. "Nationalism" is a much weaker term than "nation." It means basically ethnic politics or identity politics. On the other hand, "nation" means a group that is laying claim to be a sovereign state (as in being a member of "United Nations"). So the idea of "Tamil nationalism" says nothing about a "Tamil nation." - Kautilya3 (talk) 18:16, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

Fourth statement by volunteer moderator

I forgot to state one of the usual rules, which is that editors should not engage in threaded discussion or reply to each other's posts. This results in going back-and-forth and is unproductive. Respond only to the moderator. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:46, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Comment on content, not on contributors. Referring to "the editor" doesn't avoid commenting on contributors. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:46, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

One editor is satisfied with the current version of the lede sentence, which describes Tamils as a nationality that does not have a national state, which has two sources. The other editor has proposed three alternatives. The first is describing only Sri Lankan Tamils as a stateless nation. Is there a reliable source that states that Sri Lankan Tamils are a stateless nation and Indian Tamils are not? (If there is no reliable source, that position is original research.) If so, how can part of one nationality be stateless and another one not be stateless? The second is presenting a discussion of all views in the body of the article. The third is omitting the issue altogether. Is the other editor agreeable to any of these approaches? Robert McClenon (talk) 01:46, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Fourth statements by editors

I think it should remain unchanged, but we can limit it only to Tamil nationalists.

We can change it to:

Tamil people with a population of about 77 million living around the world are one of the largest and oldest of the existing ethno-linguistic cultural groups of people. Tamil nationalists claim that Tamils are a Nation without a state of their own.

I think this version is acceptable for Indian nationalists, Sri Lankan nationalists and Tamil nationalists.Vatasura (talk) 06:40, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Are there reliable sources that say that the Srilankan Tamils form a stateless nation? Plenty. Here is a sample:

• Put simply, the worlds stateless nations — Kosovan Albanians, Kurds from Turkey and Iraq, Tamils from Sri Lanka, Chechens from Russia, Ibos and Ogoni from Nigeria, and hundreds of other tribes and ethnic groups...
• A stateless nation exists whenever or wherever an imagined political culture that functions in ways that permit a people to conceive of themselves as a nation finds itself lacking its own sovereign, independent state.... Modern examples abound: the Palestinians in Israel and Occupied Territories as well as Gaza; ... the Tamils in Sri Lanka; the Chechens in Chechnya; ...
• In order to escape persecution from the Sri Lankan government, which has suspended the Tamil population's rights as citizens, a large number of Tamils have fled the island... These far-flung Tamils, together with their compatriots in Sri Lanka, constitute the stateless nation of Tamil Eelam, which is reflected in these scattered groups' presence on the World Wide Web.
• Tamils in Sri Lanka have no state and are seeking to create their own sovereign state of Eelam based on their right of self-determination. They are a stateless nation oppressed by alien Sinhalese colonialism and domination.

On the other hand, Robert, your question "If so, how can part of one nationality be stateless and another one not be stateless?" is a prime example of WP:OR. It is not our job to either ask or answer such questions. - Kautilya3 (talk) 20:51, 24 March 2016 (UTC)

Fifth statement by volunteer moderator

The suggestion has been made that we state, with reliable sources, that Tamil nationalists say that the Tamils, of whom there are 77 million, are a stateless nation. Is that statement, which recognizes that nationalism is a matter of opinion, acceptable to both parties? If so, can this discussion be closed as Resolved?

Fifth statements by editors

I think we can close it. Further discussion on this will brings us nowhere. Discuss on this is like an atheist and believer discuss on existence of God, it will never end. Robert, I am grateful that you asked this question. "If so, how can part of one nationality be stateless and another one not be stateless?", but I think you'll like me get no answer for this question. As I said, we can leave it unchanged as since 2014 or we can add the part with Tamil Nationlist and finish this dispute.

• Put simply, the worlds stateless nations — Kosovan Albanians, Kurds from Turkey and Iraq, Tamils from Sri Lanka, Chechens from Russia, Ibos and Ogoni from Nigeria, and hundreds of other tribes and ethnic groups...

According to this source, are Kurds in Syria or Iran not stateless nations?:) Vatasura (talk) 05:30, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

If there are reliable sources saying such a thing, I would have no objection. But there aren't. The other editor has not yet produced a single reliable source stating anything. Without sources, we are simply going around in circles. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:23, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

Leaving it as it is, is not an option. What exists in the lead is WP:OR not supported by RS. It is also not discussed in the article body, as it should be. Once this DRN case closes, I intend to delete it. The other editor needs to produce alternative wording supported by reliable sources, preferably right here. - Kautilya3 (talk) 10:43, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

Talk:Jim Chappell#Use of Scaruffi web site

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by NewYorkActuary on 20:03, 14 March 2016 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Jim Chappell#Use of Scaruffi web site (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• NewYorkActuary (talk · contribs)
• Woovee (talk · contribs)
• Chubbles (talk · contribs)
• Sergecross73 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

This is a slow-motion edit war, the topic of dispute being an external link used in the article's "Further Reading" section. The section (and link) was added by the filing party, but has been persistently removed by the non-filing party. In doing so, the non-filing party cites a one-day discussion on the talk page of a project which is not a "sponsor" of the instant article (i.e., the article does not lie within the scope of that project). Furthermore, the purported consensus reached during that one-day discussion was seriously flawed, for reasons both procedural and factual. The filing party asserts that the only operative requirements for the instant article are those found in WP:EL, and that the particular link in question meets those requirements.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

A third-opinion request led to the fashioning of a compromise, which was rejected by the non-filing party. The filing party also offered to engage in mediation, but this offer was not accepted.

How do you think we can help?

A moderated discussion will provide a necessary basis for clarifying and resolving the issues in dispute.

Summary of dispute by Woovee

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Chubbles

The debate concerns the inclusion of referencing material written by Piero Scaruffi, whose status as a reliable source was rejected by a consensus of Wikipedians a few years ago because he was self-published in the area of music. NewYorkActuary wished to include, on the Jim Chappell page, a link to Scaruffi's website where Chappell's work was discussed. This was reverted by Woovee, who pointed to the consensus that Scaruffi was not a reliable source. NewYorkActuary was able to demonstrate that the consensus had overlooked a crucial piece of evidence: Scaruffi had, indeed, been published in music, by a major Italian publishing house, Arcana Editrice. According to the link on Scaruffi's site, the material NewYorkActuary wished to include was published (with slight revisions) in one of those Arcana publications. Woovee maintained that the inclusion of any link to Scaruffi's website violated the consensus, even if it were just a convenience link to the content that had been published elsewhere by a peer-reviewed print publisher.

I ordered the Scaruffi book from an interlibrary loan service, to confirm that it was editorially reviewed and that the Chappell article was in the book; it was, but there were slight differences in wording between the published version and the online mirror on Scaruffi's website. NewYorkActuary wishes to include the convenience link for the use of readers who want to verify the content of the book reference; Woovee has allowed for the print publication to be included on the article, but reverts all inclusion of the convenience link. For me, the debate hinges on whether the additions on Scaruffi's website are de minimis or not; I see no good reason to exclude a convenience link if the text is exactly the same as in a reliable print publication, but there are some minor differences between what's in the print version and the version on Scaruffi's website, which do not appreciably affect the content of what the sourcing was meant to cover. Lastly, this new evidence indicates that the consensus that Scaruffi is an unreliable author on music needs reexamination. Since he has been published, more than once, by a major music publisher, I'd argue that this may make his website "fair game" for sourcing once again, as a recognized authority in the field. Chubbles (talk) 21:48, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Sergecross73

After a series of disputes regarding the use of Piero Scaruffi work as a source in in music articles, I facilitated a discussion at WP:ALBUMS, which unanimously decided that he was not an authority on music unless his work was published by a third party publisher. Over 10 editors participated at this discussion held at the WikiProject level, many of them long-term and experienced editors. The current consensus is to only use his published work on Wikipedia, a consensus no one has attempted to change in these discussions, so its rather bizarre they didn't go there before coming to DRN.

Regardless, linking to PS's personal blog as an external link not only violates the consensus, and WP:SPS in general, but conceptually adds very little to the article anyways, as its written entirely in Italian, something not readable by a vast majority of English readers anyways. Its inclusion creates virtually no benefit to the reader. Its truly baffling how he's still arguing over such a minor thing, or that he even refuses the compromise I proposed, which was adding a book that published PS's work about the subject in a "Further Reading" section, which at least wouldn't violate the active consensus. Sergecross73 msg me 20:33, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Talk:Jim Chappell#Use of Scaruffi web site discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

DRN coordinator's note: I've added a couple of parties who have been involved in the recent discussion and will notify them. Let me note that there's been plenty of discussion and the other editor, Woovee, has already been notified. — TransporterMan (TALK) 20:15, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Opening statement by volunteer

My name is thehistorian10, and I am the volunteer who will be mediating this case. I see that the parties have attempted to discuss this matter, and have not yet resolved their dispute through previous efforts.

Let me just begin by setting out the ground rules. Please do not edit the article in dispute during this process - it means we are all working with the same material. Second, please respect that some of us come from differing time zones, and may not be able to respond immeidately, so please give it a day or two after your posting, if you are expecting a response. Thirdly, this is meant to be an informal mediation. It is not designed to be another forum for your self-described "slow edit war". Therefore, I will not tolerate any attacks of any kind against me, or another participant. See my comments about civility below. This is because I am trying to help everyone here - and there are multiple parties to this case - reach a solution that they can agree on. I should say that if there is any uncivil behaviour (which, based on the talk page, there hasn't been so far), I might have to collapse the uncivil spats into an archive box, so they can be out of the way. I also expect a degree of cooperation from parties, because solutions to these debates can only come around through compromise and cooperation. If there is no obvious cooperation or discussion, I may close this as a failed case.

As I understand the debate, this centres around the validity of a certain proposed source, authored by someone who has apparently been discredited by the Wikipedia community. I'm not going to question that decision, but I would like to know what information the filing party seeks to get from the source? The Historian (talk) 20:40, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

Response from NewYorkActuary to moderator's questions

When I checked in here yesterday, this topic had disappeared from the page. But everything seems to have been corrected since then.

The material in question is a critical assessment of a particular musician's recorded output. As such, it provides appropriate "Further Reading" in an article about that musician. Although it might have been possible to incorporate that material into the article itself, I had two concerns about doing so. First, the amount of material in the reading's assessment was much greater than the amount of material that could be gleaned from other sources. Using it in the "Critical Reception" section of the article might have given the appearance of placing undue weight on the opinion of this one expert. And second, bringing in enough of that material to fill in the gaps left by the other sources might have raised questions of copyright violations (based on the amount of imported material compared to the total amount in the reading). For these reasons, listing it as a "Further Reading" was the best use of the material and was justified under criterion #3 of WP:ELYES.

I have two comments on procedural matters. First, Woovee (the editor I described as the "non-filing party") has not yet appeared in this discussion. We have had opening statements from the two additional editors who were added to the list by this page's coordinator. Although I believe that useful discussion can take place amongst the three of us, I note that neither of the additional editors was the one who was engaged in the persistent reverting of edits.

Second, I am concerned about your statement that you will not "question the decision" regarding prior discussion of the author. The scope and validity of that talk-page discussion back in 2014 is the central issue here today, and not examining that discussion is tantamount to pre-judging the merits of the case. I pray that you reconsider your position on this. The 2014 talk-page discussion is here.

Thank you for your volunteer efforts. NewYorkActuary (talk) 23:06, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

volunteer's further statement

In my view, the debate over whether to use that particular source has already been an gone, and I'm not sure whether it would be appropriate to reopen it here, given that it was concretely decided by the Community that it should not be used on Wikipedia. What I'm getting at is this - is it possible to get at the underlying information, from another source? Remember, I am attempting to find a solution that all partie will agree on, and I assume that whilst everyone agrees that the information should go in somehow, the main dispute is about the sources used, so it is sensible to suggest that contributors look to other sources or that same information. Now, I am willing to reconsider that position if it turns out that the source under dispute is the one and only source where we can get this information from.

Having said that, if none of the others participate within a day or so, I am thinking of closing thi, because mediation, and dispute resolution is ineffective when there is only one active party.

Talk:Proton_(automobile)#Youngman_sales_data_reputability

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Samhu on 16:15, 20 March 2016 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Talk:Proton (automobile)#Youngman sales data reputability (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Samhu (talk · contribs) Aero777 (talk · contribs) Dispute overview One editor is disputing figures as shown in Proton's Global Operation on these basis 1)Youngman's China-manufactured cars sold as Lian-Hua have little to do with Proton so should they be included in the bar chart and tables in that same section at all? 2) Youngman car sales figures are discredited so should they be quoted as they have been at all? Other editor is standing by entries as they are. Summation of discussion between the two editors involved is at Talk:Proton_(automobile)#Youngman_sales_data_reputability Complete discussion is at User talk:Aero777#Proton automobiles, Youngman controversy Have you tried to resolve this previously? Fully discussed already, without any resolution between authors here User_talk:Aero777#Proton_automobiles.2C_Youngman_controversy Third opinion requested on 13 March 2016 ; went stale on 19 March 2018 How do you think we can help? 1)Give your opinion whether including Youngman Automotive's Lian-Hua nameplate China-manufactured cars is relevant at all in the Proton Global Operations bar chart, section text and tables. 2)Advice whether now-defunct Youngman Automobile Groups sale's figures meet Wikipedia standards for inclusion there. (May not be required if Youngman sales deemed irrelevant for inclusion in Proton Global Operations altogether) Samhu Samhu (talk) 16:15, 20 March 2016 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Aero777 Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. # Talk:Proton (automobile)#Youngman_sales_data_reputability discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Volunteer note - There has been adequate discussion at the article talk page. The filing party has not notified the other party of the filing. This case will be ready for acceptance after the filing party notifies the other party and the other party responds. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:26, 20 March 2016 (UTC) Aero777 has been informed via his talk page. Samhu (talk) 04:12, 21 March 2016 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:Chaharshanbe Suri#Title

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Rye-96 on 18:53, 20 March 2016 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Talk:Chaharshanbe Suri#Title (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Rye-96 (talk · contribs) Pahlevun (talk · contribs) HistoryofIran (talk · contribs) Dispute overview The dispute is on the name of the festival. And this is the edition which I had provided and was opposed to. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I suggest, if we're not to use Charshanbe Suri at the first of the introduction, use it as a bold title after Chaharshanbe Suri. How do you think we can help? Participate in the discussion, and show if there's any chance to change the current introduction which I consider unprofessional (with regard to my explanations). Summary of dispute by Pahlevun Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by HistoryofIran Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Talk:Chaharshanbe Suri#Title discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Volunteer note - There has been adequate discussion at the article talk page. The filing party has notified the other editors. If the other editors reply to agree that they are willing to discuss here, since discussion is voluntary, a volunteer can open a discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:00, 25 March 2016 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:J. Ralph

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Karst on 10:48, 21 March 2016 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Talk:J. Ralph (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Karst (talk · contribs) Eldorado74 (talk · contribs) Moonriddengirl (talk · contribs) Dispute overview I have been in a content dispute over J.Ralph page with its creator Eldorado74 since December 2015. As another editor (Moonriddengirl) on the talk page pointed out, there is an issue of WP:OWN about the content, but assuming Good Faith I have tried to steer the editor away from the promotional language used in the article. This has resulted in a number of mutual reverts in the past three months. Last week I tried to establish a neutral tone to the article but this was met with further accusations of vandalism. After a number of attempts to seek out consensus, I request mediation to solve the issue. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I have attempted to outline the issues with the page and give clear examples of why and how they needed to be addressed. Both on the article Talk page and the Talk page of the article creator. How do you think we can help? Assuming good faith I have tried to find a consensus over the past three months, but have to concede that I have failed and perhaps have become too entrenched in the issue. I intend to take a step away and hope that a third party can help with finding a common ground that will benefit the article. Summary of dispute by Eldorado74 Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by Moonriddengirl Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Talk:J. Ralph discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Volunteer note - There has been extensive discussion at the talk page. Eldorado74 has been properly notified. Administrator Moonriddengirl has not edited the article in two years. Other editors who have not been listed have edited the article or its talk page recently. The filing party must notify the other editors who have edited the article or its talk page recently. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:35, 21 March 2016 (UTC) Notified those who have edited the page in the past year; with the exception of one (blocked sockpuppet).Karst (talk) 21:30, 21 March 2016 (UTC) Recent editor note - A quick glance over the page clearly reads like a biased resume. The article clearly lacks a neutral tone. MetropolisHearts (talk) 21:45, 21 March 2016 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:Cryonics#Analysis of_Wikipedia_policy_in_context_of_the_.22Scientists_Open_Letter_on_Cryonics.22

– New discussion.

Filed by Nome77 on 13:41, 23 March 2016 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Cryonics#Analysis of Wikipedia policy in context of the .22Scientists Open Letter on Cryonics.22 (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Nome77 (talk · contribs)
• David Gerard (talk · contribs)
• Cryobiologist (talk · contribs)
• JzG (talk · contribs) aka Guy
• MjolnirPants (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I'm trying to include the core (premise/point of view) of cryonicists (as a group) in the cryonics article. This point of view is most clearly and reputably represented by the "Scientists Open Letter on Cryonics". Even though the inclusion of this open letter easily meets NPOV and RS guidelines, one editor who is a critic of cryonics is blocking the inclusion of this content. At least two editors agree that the content should be included, especially considering all the critical opinions which are already there. The editor who is blocking the content has provided very little discussion on the topic, while I have pursued discussion extensively and in good faith. The "scientists open letter" in question is referenced multiple places, including on the national Institute of health website, a few printed books, and several news sources. It should be noted that this point of view, and -any- point of view held by cryonicists, is certainly a minority point of view (because they are a minority group). It is easy to make sure that this minority status is represented with the discussed content.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I tried to talk with the objecting editor on the talk page. They write very little in response, mostly making claims that none of the provided sources are reputable. (Regardless of their reputability).

How do you think we can help?

Read through the arguments I have made on the talk page. Especially my references and interpretations of Wikipedia policy on these matters. Let any other editors know if you think that my representation of Wikipedia policy on this matter is correct, or incorrect. I believe that comments from an authoritative third-party on whether the discussed policies are accurate, or inaccurate, could help resolve this dispute.

Summary of dispute by David Gerard

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Cryobiologist

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Nome77 (talk · contribs) has proposed adding an entire new section to the Cryonics article solely devoted to discussion of a document called The Scientists' Open Letter on Cryonics. I believe brief mention of this Letter is warranted, but not an entire section devoted to it.

The Cryonics article in question already contains quotes from scientists critical of cryonics sourced from single newspaper stories. Since the existence of the Scientists' Open Letter on Cryonics is mentioned in multiple newspaper articles, books, and journal articles, it is legitimate to mention the existence of the Letter in the article about cryonics. Mention in just one mainstream media source, such as the China Daily newspaper article should give the Letter the same standing as a single-article quote of an individual scientist. The Letter exists (not in dispute), and was deemed worthy of mention in newspapers and books, including books not about cryonics by neutral authors, just as criticisms of cryonics have been deemed newsworthy in various newspaper stories.

JzG (talk · contribs) noted that the organization currently hosting the Open Letter is insignificant and has a vested interest in topic of cryonics, but agrees that the conclusion can be drawn from reliable sources that the Letter does in fact exist. JzG further said that the purported sources citing the letter appear at first glance to be churnalism of a press release. The only source I can see that did this is the Canadian Medical Association Journal, a mainstream medical journal that deemed a press release referencing the Letter worthy of mention, as did an Australian newspaper story.

Rather than an entire section worded as though it was an extension of the Letter website, I proposed adding the following neutral paragraph to the existing Reception section of the article. Nome77 (talk · contribs) deleted this paragraph, and took the proposal for adding a whole section about the Letter to dispute resolution before other editors could comment on the below paragraph.

With the adoption of ice-free preservation methods (vitrification) in cryonics at the beginning of the 21st Century, several dozen scientists began signing an open letter expressing a minority view that there is "a credible possibility" that cryonics performed with contemporary technology under ideal conditions might preseve enough brain information to allow future revival.. The letter disclaims endorsement of any particular cryonics organization or its practices. As of 2016, the letter had 69 signatories. Cryobiologist (talk) 18:17, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

References

Summary of dispute by JzG

One editor with no other interests wants to include a substantial paragraph, in fact an entire section, on an "open letter" (essentially an online petition) signed by a small number of scientists who support the statement that cryonics is a legitimate field of inquiry. Others have noted some issues with this:

1. The petition is run by a group with a vested interest in promoting cryonics.
2. The group is of no objectively provable significance.
3. The most that can be drawn from reliable independent sources is that it exists, the balance is based on the letter itself and promotion of it on the sponsoring organisation (this group and its website fail WP:RS).
4. When you look into the purported sources, they turn out to be very brief and at first glance appear to be churnalism, based entirely on press release material.

So, the "dispute" is between one newly registered SPA who likely thinks we are "suppressing information" and a group of long-standing editors with very large numbers of edits across multiple subjects.

We would need, I think, a categorical assurance from the OP that they would accept a result that went against them, otherwise any DR process would be a complete waste of time. Long experience suggests to me that this is one of those users who only accepts the answer they want. Guy (Help!) 14:02, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by MjolnirPants

The issue I see here is one of balancing weight between POVs. On the one hand, we have reliable sources stating one thing. On the other, we have unreliable sources stating something else. On top of that, we have a new user interpreting various sources to support the claims of the unreliable source. This seems pretty clear cut to me. We don't give undue weight to fringe POVs. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 17:21, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Nome77

I opened the dispute, so my summary is started in the "Dispute overview". Below are my comments on the issues mentioned by other editors. If this is not the correct place for my thoughts on dispute issues, please let me know where they should go rather than reverting my dispute comments. (Looking at you, JzG). This will be my final input in the header of this dispute, unless additions are requested. Thank you.

(Re Cryobiologists summary): I believe the proposal offered by Cryobiologist is an equitable resolution, and I would support that proposal. The only thing I would add to his text is to change "scientists" to "prominent scientists" or "respected scientists". Several secondary sources refer to them as such, and a lookup of any of the signatories names makes their distinction within their fields fairly obvious.

(Re JzG point 1a) The open letter is not a petition, a petition is defined by the dictionary as a "request for action", and no action is requested by the letter. The letter is better described as a consensus statement for the group of 69 signatories, about their point of view on cryonics from their scientific perspective. The open letter is more specifically an attempt to make their voice and opinion heard. (Which is also the goal of this dispute). (Re JzG point 1b) Yes, the open letter is currently hosted by group with an interest in cryonics, but the letter is not "run" by them. The open letter was originally created in 2004, about six years before the domain on which it is currently hosted existed (domain was created in 2010). This can be verified by looking at the signatory dates and looking at history of the "evidencebasedcryonics.org" domain name as reported by archive.org. (Re JzG Point 2) The word "significance" is always subjective, not objective unless the criteria for significance is clearly specified. Each signatory is a prominent name within their listed scientific or medical field, which means that the group is not significant, but the individuals are significant. (Re JzG Point 3) The fact that the hosting site has an interest and cryonics does not make the hosting site fail WP:RS. The WP:RS policy states about biased sources: "Wikipedia articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject.". As you mentioned, the open letter is also referenced by multiple independent sources, which certainly do not fail WP:RS. The references include the National Institute of Health. Several of the references do discuss some aspects of the letter beyond its existence. Most mention a key point that the letter has been signed by prominent scientists. Several of them also describe the content of the letter. There is little further in-depth discussion of letter in the references, because the letter is mostly used for its intended purpose, which is to present the viewpoint of the signatories as it is written. (Re JzG Point 4) I agree with CryoBiologist that the sources are not churnalism, and neither are all the sources brief. The "St. John's Law Review" article is 33 pages long, with 2 pages dedicated to discussing the feasibility of cryonics. (Re JzG ending points) More than one editor supports the goal of this dispute. See CryoBiologists dispute summary. Yes, I will accept the conclusion of the dispute resolution process, including one that goes against my preferences. However, as Robert McClenon notes, this dispute resolution process may or may not require and include Formal Mediation.

(Re MjolnirPants Summary) While the opinion of leading scientists who are interested in cryonics is certainly a minority opinion (and should be stated as such), it is certainly a common viewpoint -within the population of people who are interested in Cryonics-. Cryonicists (who, as documented, number in the thousands) would certainly not participate in cryonics unless they held some belief that there was a nonzero possibility that cryonics could work.

(Unrelated addition) I should note that every editor who opposes this content, has a long-standing list of edits in the page history that mostly change the article in such a way as to be negative toward cryonics (anti-cryonics). Therefore, while I generally try to assume good intent towards NPOV, I do think it's a possibility that the individual beliefs of the opposing editors is fueling their passion in excluding this viewpoint, in the same way that my own beliefs fuel my desire to include this viewpoint. However, I don't want the article to become one-sided, I only wanted to follow the policies specified in NPOV, specifically regarding including all minority viewpoints, and describing debates rather than participating in them. -- Nome77 (talk) 22:51, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Talk:Cryonics#Analysis of_Wikipedia_policy_in_context_of_the_.22Scientists_Open_Letter_on_Cryonics.22 discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Volunteer note - There has been considerable discussion on the article talk page, in several sections. Most of the editors have been notified of this filing, but one has not. When that one is notified, and if other parties agree, this case can be opened for moderated discussion. If this case is opened for moderated discussion, it may include all of the recent cryonics-related issues on the talk page, not just one issue. I will note that, with this number of parties, DRN is likely to be feasible, but may not be conclusive, in which case it may result in a referral to formal mediation. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:39, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

I checked each editor talk page, and it appears that each listed editor has now either been notified of the dispute or has commented on the dispute. (including David Gerard). Thanks. -- Nome77 (talk) 00:04, 24 March 2016 (UTC)

Talk:Seth Rollins#The_Sting_quote_is_MISLEADING_as_hell

– New discussion.

Filed by 93.44.154.112 on 15:09, 25 March 2016 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Seth Rollins#The Sting quote is MISLEADING as hell (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• 62.19.63.157 (talk · contribs)
• 93.44.152.168 (talk · contribs)
• LM2000 (talk · contribs)
• B. Mastino (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

An old, veteran wrestler has described another young colleague as "the most talented he has ever seen or worked with" in an interview. This has been reported in the intro of aforementioned young wrestler. My friend and I tried to point out what we feel to be some issues inherent to reporting that statement per se and removing its supposed contextualization. Moreover, we are questioning the validity of the source (the veteran wrestler spoke as such in an interview made by the young wrestler's own employing company) and the true meaning behind the words "most talented". If you read the interview in its entirety, it becomes apparent - at least to us - that the "talent" the old wrestler is mentioning is just the young wrestler's ability to keep doing quality work with a higher working schedule than normal during the time they had worked together (in other words: being resourceful professionally and consistent in his work); a wrestling fan would probably take a broader, decontextualized, "the most talented" as in "the most charismatic, the best in the ring" or a combination of both. Both my friend and I think that reporting a stray interview to introduce a concept like "being the best ever" - when there would't even a general consensus about it - it's not really encyclopedic per se; that, and we find the act of removing the context questionable from a journalistic point of view. In addition, there are a lot of other interviews about this or that wrestler that are not reported on Wikipedia; rightly so, in our opinion, because if someone started to report every time a wrestler speaks about someone else biographies of living people would get arguably cluttered. We can't edit the page and we have been invited to desist.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

We proposed to either remove the stray interview for keeping a concise, objective intro, or to at least add another interview of another veteran to reinforce the claim, rewording it in what we would feel to be a more sober fashion: "Seth Rollins' work has been praised by industry veterans such as Sting [1] and Triple H [2]" instead of "Industry veteran Sting has described Seth Rollins' as the most talented wrestler he's ever seen, or worked, with". We've been turned down.

How do you think we can help?

It is our belief that the editors are just really passionate about Rollins and probably assumed the interview was undoubtedly worthy of Wikipedia. Both removing the stray interview, added in all likelihood just to give Rollins' intro more "oomph", or expanding the claim in the intro by adding a second opinion (see above) for added credibility while writing it more conservatively seem like reasonable resolutions to us.

Summary of dispute by 62.19.63.157

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by 93.44.152.168

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by LM2000

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

There is no dispute, the issue was brought to the talk page where no less than seven different IPs traced to Naples, Italy made the same argument, in excruciatingly verbose detail. Mastino and I disagreed with their novel interpretations. When sockpuppetry is taken into consideration, there is a 2-1 consensus against changing the quote. Should they not WP:DROPTHESTICK I will take this to WP:SPI. I don't intend to make any further comments here.LM2000 (talk) 00:24, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by B. Mastino.

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Here is the comment made by Sting, about Seth Rollins:

After 30 years and working with some of the best and some of the greatest, [Rollins] is, I’m telling you, he’s got to be the best I’ve ever worked with. I mean, this guy has it. And I think he’s just scratching the surface on what he will do. I’ve never seen somebody as talented. He’s working two [matches] on Raw, two [matches] on the pay-per-view, he’s involved in every other segment and it’s physical. He’s got guys coming from every angle. There’s a lot on his plate. He’s carrying a lot, and he’s handling it. He’s proven he can do it. I’m just glad I had a chance to work with him. He’s the kind of guy who could be in there with a broomstick and make something very interesting happen, a match that people would love somehow.[1]

This has been used to cite the following line in the lede of Seth Rollins:

Industry veteran Steve "Sting" Borden described Rollins as the most talented wrestler he has ever seen, or worked with.

The various IPs (all traceable to Italy and likely the same person) have taken exception to this line, and would like to modify it. I see no grounds for doing so, given that Sting unequivocally called Rollins the best wrestler he's worked with, and the most talented he's seen. The IP basically says my contextual reading isn't up to par, while I say he's bringing his subjective reader interpretation into the mix. Besides the IP-hopping, I suspect there's also an account in existence with a watchlist, given his speedy responses on Talk:Seth Rollins. B. Mastino (talk) 00:35, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

Talk:Seth Rollins#The_Sting_quote_is_MISLEADING_as_hell discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Volunteer note - There has been adequate discussion on the talk page. The filing party has not notified the other editors. It is not important that other editors have seen the filing. The filing party is still responsible for notifying the other editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:07, 26 March 2016 (UTC)