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Current disputes

Ukrainian language

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Crash48 on 10:35, 22 November 2023 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Ukrainian language (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Crash48 (talk · contribs)
• Rsk6400 (talk · contribs)
• Austronesier (talk · contribs)
• Mzajac (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Disagreement on whether the usage of the term Little Russian language by non-Russians, and in particular, by Ukrainians themselves, including those never subject to Russian imperial oppression, should be mentioned in the article.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

• Talk:Ukrainian language#Little Russian language
• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Third_opinion&diff=prev&oldid=1176410679
• Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 107#Talk:Ukrainian language#Little Russian language
• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case&oldid=1185623520#Ukrainian_language

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Establish whether the usage of the term Little Russian language by non-Russians, and in particular, by Ukrainians themselves, including those never subject to Russian imperial oppression, should be mentioned in the article.

Summary of dispute by Rsk6400

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Comment I'm not opposed to this kind of dispute resolution, but I'm not sure about this, because there were a lot of other participants involved in the discussions. Rsk6400 (talk) 14:10, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Summary The question is not, whether the use of the name "Little Russian" by certain authors should be included, but whether it should be included without reference to good secondary sources. Rsk6400 (talk) 09:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Austronesier

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Ukrainian language discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Zeroth statement by possible moderator (Ukrainian language)

I am still ready to try to mediate this dispute. Please read DRN Rule D, and reply whether you agree to moderated discussion subject to this set of rules, which include recognizing that the Ukrainian language is a contentious topic subject to the Arbitration Committee ruling on disputes about Eastern Europe. The contentious topics procedure has been provided in part to deal with battleground editing about world areas that have been historically real battlegrounds, or are current battlegrounds, and Ukraine is the area of the bloodiest war of the twenty-first century. An editor has said that there have been other editors involved in this dispute. After discussion, we may either use a Request for Comments to involve other editors, or invite the other editors to take part in this discussion.

So I am asking whether at least two editors agree to moderated discussion subject to DRN Rule D and Eastern Europe contentious topic rules. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:21, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Zeroth statements by editors (Ukrainian language)

Yes, I think I understood the rules and am willing to take part. Rsk6400 (talk) 09:04, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I agree to moderated discussion subject to the suggested set of rules. --Crash48 (talk) 16:58, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I was not invited but I did participate in the above-mentioned previous discussion. I ask to be allowed to participate, and agree to the ground rules. Thank you. —Michael Z. 17:28, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

First statement by possible moderator (Ukrainian language)

The purpose of moderated discussion is to improve the article. So I am asking each editor to state what they want changed in the article, or what they want left the same that another editor wants changed. It appears that one area of disagreement is whether to state that the language was sometimes called "Little Russian" in the past. Is that statement supported by a reliable source? If so, is there a reason of due weight or balance why it should not be mentioned?

Are there any other content issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 05:46, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

User:Mzajac will be added to the list of participants, and should answer the questions. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:46, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

First statements by editors (Ukrainian language)

Yes, the article should mention that the language has been called “Little Russian” at some times in some places, in a manner compliant with policies. But no, it certainly should not use the term, as it is pejorative language from a colonial legacy (and is currently used to support a violent campaign against Ukrainian nationhood). And as to the specific question at issue, the article should not just cite cherrypicked historical usages by Ukrainians in primary sources without context to imply something about the term’s acceptability. All discussion of the term should be composed with awareness of its context (including the meaning and implications of “Little Russia” and “Little Russian” [person], colonial relationships, and imperial censorship), avoid WP:SYNTH, and be used to provide information supported by recent reliable sources. And also note that the primary sources in question actually use several different terms, with different meanings, in different languages: malorusskoĭ litaraturě (“of Little-Russian literature”), malorossiĭsʹkym narichchiam (“in the Little-Russian dialect”), iazyka maloruskoho (“of the Little-Ruthenian language/tongue”), malorossiĭskago narěchiia (“of the Little-Russian dialect”), Malorossiĭskaia Eneida (“Little-Russian Aeneid”). —Michael Z. 06:38, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Question It seems to me that this edit[1] by Crash48 means that the mediation has failed, according to rule D, no. 5. Am I right ? Rsk6400 (talk) 06:54, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

The edit I want included in the article is [2]. Every statement added therein is attributed to a RS. Austronesier's statement at WP:ARC, although based on a slanderous premise misrepresenting a clearly attributed citation from Harvard Ukrainian Research Institute as my own OR, nevertheless confirmed Rublamb's earlier statement at Talk:Ukrainian language that citing primary sources is allowed as illustrative material for a conclusion which is itself cited from secondary sources.

As for other content issues: after I had filed this DR request, a new content dispute developed, unrelated to the mentions of Little Russian language. Rsk6400 insists on using the phrasing During the century after the 1654 Pereiaslav Agreement, Kyiv and the parts of Ukraine east of the Dnipro river gradually lost their autonomy in favour of tighter control by Russia. An unsuspecting reader may infer from this phrasing that East Ukraine gradually lost autonomy after being incorporated into the Tsardom of Russia, while West Ukraine retained its pre-1654 autonomy for another century at least. The actual history is exactly the opposite: after the forceful polonisation precipitated the Khmelnytsky Uprising in 1648, East Ukraine broke away from the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth and enjoyed a short-lived autonomy under the Tsardom of Russia, while West Ukraine remained under Polish oppression, and couldn't attain autonomy until after the Great War. This is why I want to change the misleading sentence into The 1654 Pereiaslav Agreement divided Ukraine between the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth and the Tsardom of Russia. During the following century, both monarchies became increasingly intolerant of Ukrainian own cultural and political aspirations., which Rsk6400 opposes. --Crash48 (talk) 17:25, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Second statement by possible moderator (Ukrainian language)

I will not fail a moderation for an edit of the article so soon after I provided the rules, but I will restate that Rule D.5 states not to edit the article while discussion is in progress.

One editor calls for a use-mention distinction about the terminology "Little Russian". Is there agreement that this is the right approach? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:48, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

One editor has identified another content issue. If I understand correctly, what is agreed is that after 1654, Eastern Ukraine was part of the Tsardom of Russia, and Western Ukraine was under the rule of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. The question of which state can be considered more autonomous is a national point of view. Is this disagreement about the wording of the Ukrainian language article, and where, or is it about the content of a different article? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:48, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Are there any other content issues?

Second statements by editors (Ukrainian language)

The proposed edit[3] demonstrates the dangers of “citing primary sources as illustrative material,” as at least one of the statements uses WP:OR to incorporate a misinterpretation of the primary source: “As late as 1845, the Ukrainian poet and philologist Ivan Vahylevych referred to his language as Little Russian.” it says, but that is false. According to the Encyclopedia of Ukraine,[4] Vahylevych’s work is “his published Polish grammar of the ‘Little Ruthenian’ language in Galicia (1845).” The title is Grammatyka Jȩzyka Małoruskiego w Galicii (Polish) or Hrammatyka Iazyka Malorusʹkoho v Halytsïy (Ukrainian/Rusyn), meaning “of Little Ruthenia” or “of Little Rus,” and definitely not “of Little Russia” (which would be “Małorosyjskiego” or “Malorosiĭsʹkoho”). This is clearly supported by the Polish-language passages in the right-hand side of the referenced image file, where we can see distinct mentions of both Russia (Róssia/Россїѧ) and Ruthenia/Rus (Ruś/Рꙋ́сь).

I don’t think the other assumptions in the proposal about vocabulary use are any more reliable, and presenting the collection of unreliable factoids to imply a pattern and encourage particular conclusion is engaging in an insidious form of WP:SYNTH. Instead, we should say what RS say about the historical use of the terminology, directly supported by them.

Although the question of autonomy in the seventeenth century is not directly relevant to this dispute, the issue of the division of Ukraine between empires and the treatment of Ukrainians and Ukraine therein is. Most of the sources in question are from the period of the Ukrainian National Revival in the nineteenth century. In this period, Ukraine continued to be called Ruthenia (a Latinization of Rusʹ) in the Habsburg empire (including Red Ruthenia, Chervona Rusʹ, and Carpathian Ruthenia, Karpatsʹka Rusʹ), but was named “Little Russia,” Malorossiia, in the Russian empire. We must also make the distinction between the medieval and early Modern term Mala Rusʹ/Malaia Rusʹ, and the Russian-empire colonial term Malorossiia, which had a different connotation. A Ukrainians was called a rusyn or rusnak, but the Russian empire invented a new term, maloros.

The Russian labelling was a colonial imposition accompanied by bans on Ukrainian language and violent denial and suppression of Ukrainian identity in ways that did not occur elsewhere (see, e.g., all-Russian nation). The fact that Ukrainians who were subject to this colonization for generations used the colonial vocabulary (or rather that their publishers who wanted to stay in business did) should not be put forward without context and explanation to draw mistaken conclusions from. —Michael Z. 18:18, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Comment on content, not contibutors. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:09, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

I request that we disregard other editors writing that I seem to agree to things that I did not write and do not agree with.  —Michael Z. 23:31, 3 December 2023 (UTC) Mzajac had already admitted that he didn't look at my edits before expressing his disapproval of them That was two and a half months ago, and that is inaccurate. I was responding to statements about principles, not expressing anything about their edits, shortly after joining a very large discussion, and did review the details after that. There is no point in going to dispute resolution and then dredging up months-old personal complaints. Mzajac seems to agree that the passage on autonomy in the 17th century isn't directly relevant to the subject of the article I never wrote that and I don’t agree with that.

Please respond to the moderator and write about the subject and not about other editors.

Comment on content, not contributors. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:09, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
It’s disruptive and provocative to fabricate opinions for them. This dispute resolution appears to be going right off the rails. If it continues this way I will decline to keep dedicating time to it.

avoids any kind of comparison between West and East Ukraine, thereby keeping any national point of view out of the article

What does that mean? The division of Ukraine between empires and their respective treatment of it over the entire early Modern and Modern periods is extremely important to the subject. When Ukrainian language was banned in Russia, Ukrainians could travel to the Habsburg empire to publish their work in Ukrainian (e.g., look at Mykhailo Hrushevsky’s entire career). And when the Soviets conducted genocide, purges of Ukrainian cultural elites, and forcibly Russified the language in the 1930s, it was preserved in western Ukraine and then in the diaspora. This is a fundamental influence on the development of Ukrainian culture, literature, scientific knowledge, nationhood, and especially language. It’s one of the main narratives in every good history of Ukraine.  —Michael Z. 00:35, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Comment on content, not contribtors. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:09, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

I still have two problems with Crash48's edit I mentioned above: 1) The edit is related to the question of "Little Russian" (Crash48 denied this, but it's about the necessary context for the use of "Little Russian".) 2) I want to know, if I can revert them. If not, they should self-revert, because a mediation doesn't make much sense if one party is exempt from the rules. Rsk6400 (talk) 18:47, 3 December 2023 (UTC) The rules were provided on 24/11. Rsk6400 reverted the article on 25/11, and wishes to do so again. The one party he wishes to be exempt from the rules is himself. Also characteristic of him, as I had already commented earlier, is that he's quite enthusiastic to discuss my conduct, and much less enthusiastic to discuss the article content, which in both of his statements so far has been disregarded entirely.

The use–mention distinction is totally irrelevant to the dispute at hand,

Comment on content, not contributors. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:09, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

and Mzajac had already admitted that he didn't look at my edits before expressing his disapproval of them. None of my proposed (or past) edits ever used the term “Little Russian”. The second content issue relates to the passage that Rsk6400 recently added into the Ukrainian language article, claiming that it is "necessary context" and a precondition for being able to mention the term "Little Russian language". Mzajac seems to agree that the passage on autonomy in the 17th century isn't directly relevant to the subject of the article, which is about the language and not about the nation; but I don't oppose addition of such a passage, so long as it isn't phrased misleadingly. My proposed phrasing avoids any kind of comparison between West and East Ukraine, thereby keeping any national point of view out of the article.

--Crash48 (talk) 23:24, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

References

Third statement by moderator (Ukrainian language)

Let's start over. First, read DRN Rule D again. Rule D4 says, "Comment on content, not contributors". It then says, "Discuss edits, not editors". These two instructions are the same, and are repeated because they need repeating. Second, read the ArbCom ruling, as amended, on Eastern Europe. The contentious topics procedure is in place largely to control battleground editing about areas that are or have been real battlegrounds, and too much blood is being shed in Ukraine. Disruptive editing may be dealt with summarily at Arbitration Enforcement. Also, read the boomerang essay before asking the moderator to fail the moderated discussion. If the moderated discussion is failed, the next stop will probably be WP:ANI or Arbitration Enforcement. Try to avoid those conduct forums. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:40, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Third, there appear to be two content issues. The first has to do with the term "Little Russian". The second has to do with the subsection "Under Lithuania/Poland, Muscovy/Russia and Austria-Hungary". We will discuss them separately, commenting on content, not contributors. I am neutral, but I will be active in trying to implement neutral point of view, which is the second pillar of Wikipedia.

Are we in agreement that the term "Little Russian" should be mentioned, but that it should also be noted that the term is considered pejorative, at least in modern times? Since the purpose of dispute resolution is to improve the encyclopedia, state exactly where you want to change what the article says, or what you want to leave the same that another editor wants to change. Just tell what if anything you want to change in the article.

There are clearly two viewpoints about the history of the Ukrainian language in Eastern Ukraine and Western Ukraine, because there are two viewpoints on the history of Ukraine. There are two ways to deal with the conflicting points of view. The two options do not include selecting either of the two viewpoints. We should not make any statements comparing the autonomy of cultural development in the voice of Wikipedia. Either we can state that there are at least two viewpoints on the history of the Ukrainian language, and present both viewpoints as viewpoints, or we can cut down the Ukrainian history to a minimum to state only that the language developed with different influences in the two parts of the country.

What changes if any do the editors want to make concerning the phrase "Little Russian"? Which approach should be used concerning the disputed history subsection? Are there any other article content issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 03:40, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Third statements by editors (Ukrainian language)

The term "Little Russian" became pejorative in the 20th century. We may mention that it is currently considered pejorative, but then we must also clarify that it was not considered pejorative at the time. There is no need to detail the reasons why the term became pejorative.

By way of example, the original name of And Then There Were None came to be seen as offensive in modern times; but nevertheless, the name features prominently in the article, appearing in bold in the lead paragraph, on the infobox cover, etc. The article includes a timeline of the name change, but does not explain any of the reasons why the original name became offensive, nor any description whatsoever of the African-American history.

This is exactly the approach I propose for the Ukrainian language article too. The suggestion that the history of Russian imperialism must be recounted in any article that mentions the term "Little Russian" is ridiculous and WP:UNDUE.

Comment on content, not contributors. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:11, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
@Mzajac: It's so ironic that you ask me to "respond to the moderator and write about the subject" after you ignored all of the moderator's questions yourself, and rambled on other topics... --

Crash48 (talk) 06:12, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Fourth statement by possible moderator (Ukrainian language)

Comment on content, not contributors.

Read Be Specific at DRN. This applies in particular to the phrase "Little Russian". Exactly what does each editor want the article to say about "Little Russian", and where? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:11, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Please state what approach each editor wants to take with respect to the history section. Do you want to expand it to present different national points of view, or to trim it down to a minimum, or do you have a different proposal that maintains neutral point of view?

Fourth statements by editors (Ukrainian language)

The moderator has no interest in trying to restore a stable version or status quo version of the article, and so is not interested in a chronology. The purpose of moderated discussion is to improve the article going forward. A chronology is of no interest, and we will not be trying to restore the status quo. Either answer the questions, or withdraw from the mediation. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:42, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Robert McClenon, it seems to me that there is a mistake. I think that you didn't notice that Crash48 made their problematic edit[5] more than 24 hours after they pledged to follow the rules, not (as you put it in your 2nd statement) "so soon after I provided the rules". The edit that was done soon after you provided the rules, was mine. And I only reverted to status quo. Also, I didn't comment on contributors, I asked a procedural question, in good faith. I don't see a reason to advise me to read the boomerang text. Finally, I didn't ask you to fail this mediation, but I asked you how to deal with the situation. As I see it, a possible continuation of this mediation demands that we return to status quo at the article. To avoid further confusion, here's the chronology of relevant edits: 10:35, 22 November 2023 Crash48 starts this thread 22:20, 24 November 2023 (with a minor correction at 22:25, 24 November 2023) Crash48 changes Ukrainian language. 23:21, 24 November 2023 Robert McClenon makes the "Zeroth statement by possible moderator" 09:12, 25 November 2023‎ I revert to status quo at Ukrainian language 09:04, 28 November 2023 I pledge to follow the rules (0th statement) 16:58, 28 November 2023 Crash48 makes the same pledge 17:57, 29 November 2023‎ Crash48 makes the edit that I consider problematic. Rsk6400 (talk) 08:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC) The edit I want included in the article is [6] with the following statement added after ...Ivan Vahylevych referred to his language as Little Russian: for practical reasons, as this term was more familiar to his intended readers.[7] The added statement addresses two issues raised earlier at this DR. First, it confirms, based on a secondary RS, that Little Russian is the established rendition of małoruski into English, whereas *Little Ruthenia(n) is not a thing. Additionally, it disproves the unsourced claim that the term Little Russian was imposed on Ukrainian authors, or their publishers, by the Russian authorities. --Crash48 (talk) 11:11, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Brock 1972, quoted fully enough to demonstrate Brock’s translation of terms. Of course, ruski does not mean “Russian”:

At the outset of the unpublished treatise he explained, more fully than at any earlier date, the reasons for his using an unfamiliar term to define his native tongue. “I have called the language South Ruthenian,” he wrote, “instead of the more usual Little Russian (małoruski) or Ruthenian (ruski) . . . in order to avoid all misunderstanding; for the adjective Little Russian is too narrow, proper only to [Russian] Ukraine,’ whereas “Ruthenian” alone, although it might be convenient to employ the word by itself in Latin or German, appeared to him to be inappropriate in a Slavonic tongue. His temporary reversion in his published grammar of 1845 to the term “Little Russian” appears to have been dictated by practical considerations — its greater familiarity to his readers who might be put off, needlessly, by the less familiar usage.

The paper was published in an anthology, Nationbuilding and the Politics of Nationalism: Essays on Austrian Galicia,[8] where the index on p 333 actually lists it as “Little Ruthenian”/“Little Russian”, indicating that these are treated as synonyms. As I noted above, the more-specific term is also used in the Encyclopedia of Ukraine entry on Vahylevych written by Roman Senkus and in its internet version.[9]

Note that scholarship in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries often treated Ruthenian and Ukrainian as a variety of Russian, for example calling the Old East Slavic language “Old Russian.” This is no longer the case.

Anyway, sorry I don’t have the time to properly respond to the moderator’s questions. I am very busy in RL for the next week, but will monitor, and respond better if and when I can. —Michael Z. 20:14, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Fifth statement by moderator (Ukrainian language)

There have been mistakes. My mistake may have been not making it sufficiently clear that I am not trying to determine what is the stable version or status quo version of the article. The purpose of moderated discussion is to improve the article going forward, and I do not spend time on determining what previous changes were made when.

The mistakes by the editors include not addressing my questions about changes to article content. The mistakes by the editors also include continuing to complain about the other editor. I said to comment on content, not contributors; and I am not planning to try to determine what was the stable version.

If either editor thinks that it is important to restore a status quo version, or is not interested in following my rules (and I decide how to apply my rules), they can withdraw from moderated discussion, and I will fail moderated discussion, and I will recommend that someone report at least one of the editors to Arbitration Enforcement. You have been notified that this discussion is about a contentious topic, and that special procedures can be used. I don't think that either of you should want to go to Arbitration Enforcement. It will almost certainly result in some sanctions on someone, and then you won't have moderated discussion to try to resolve the content dispute.

So: Exactly what does each editor want the article to say about "Little Russian", and where?

Please state what approach each editor wants to take with respect to the history section.

Fifth statements by editors (Ukrainian language)

Regarding the name “Little Russian,” this comprehensive article on the language should explain all of the names applied to the subject, throughout its history, and their historical, geographical, political, and chronological context, and their connotations. And in different languages, including English, and modern and historical Ukrainian as well as names that were significant in many cases in Polish, Russian, Latin, and Greek languages. It can refer to them in the course of the “History” section, but there are so many historical and current names that it may be helpful to have a “Names” section to sort out the important ones.

It should make assertions referring to statements in RS, not implying them using examples.

It ultimately will need to have more nuance and detail than “‘LR’ is pejorative today but was not in the nineteenth century,” because this is a severe oversimplification. For one thing, the naming of the language is not just black and white, but a process that has continued throughout its history and across Ukraine and the world. This comprehensive article about the language also will need to refer to the many different original names that are ambiguously translated with more precision than has been deemed sufficient in some other contexts like broad history books or narrower articles. For example English “Little Russian” has been used to refer to Ukrainian/Rusyn “maloruskyi iazyk” which existed and is also called Little Ruthenian,[10] and also to “malorossiiska mova” which is not. For example, “Little Russia” in the Medieval and Early Modern periods (Mala(ia) Rus)was a completely different name from “Little Russia” in the imperial period (Malorossiia) or today.

For example, referring to sources, the above-mentioned article Boeck 2004[11] has a lot of important factual info, but while some of Brock’s opinions are important they are not academic consensus; see, for example, the direct critique of Boeck in Kravchenko 2022, The Ukrainian-Russian borderland: history versus geography, (p 40)and what it says about the chronology of the change in connotation (p 46). —Michael Z. 01:11, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

My fourth statement specified exactly what I want the article to say about "Little Russian", and where. It did not comment on any contributors, and I don't understand why it needed to be hatted.

My first statement specified my suggestion with respect to the history section. My second statement additionally clarified that my proposed phrasing avoids any kind of comparison between West and East Ukraine, thereby keeping any national point of view out of the article. This was not a comment on any contributors, and I don't understand why it needed to be hatted too. --Crash48 (talk) 09:40, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Regarding the statement that Vahylevych’s work <..> title is Grammatyka Jȩzyka Małoruskiego w Galicii (Polish) <...> meaning “of Little Ruthenia” or “of Little Rus,” and definitely not “of Little Russia” (which would be “Małorosyjskiego” or “Malorosiĭsʹkoho”), I want also to refer to the dictionary by Kosciuszko Foundation (New York, 1961) translating Little Russia as Małoruś, and Little Russian as Małorusin, małoruski, and not even listing Małorosja or małorosyjski as options. The assertion of a difference in meaning or connotation between these forms is unsourced OR. Between the two synonyms Little Russian and Little Ruthenian, the former is used orders of magnitude more frequently in English-language sources. WP:ESTABLISHED states that we should use the established English terminology, no matter what name is used by non-English sources. --Crash48 (talk) 15:35, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Anything that is identified as important by secondary RS focussing on the history of Ukrainian language (or Ukraine) should be included. Primary sources should not be used here. The name LR was used by the imperial centre (i.e. Russia) in the context of Ukraine being a Russian colony in all but the name. This should be said in the part of the section covering the language history under Russian rule during the 18th and 19th centuries. For Ukrainian under Polish and (after 1772) Austrian rule the only thing important to me is that we stick to secondary sources. Rsk6400 (talk) 19:09, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Sixth statement by moderator (Ukrainian language)

One editor wants to add a Names section covering the history of names for the language, including the various forms of "Little Russian" in various languages. If there is agreement that there should be such a section, then the specific issue about "Little Russian" can be subsumed within an expansion of the article.

That would leave the one remaining previous issue that of the history section, which needs to be expanded, because there are different national points of view, and the article must provide a neutral point of view. This section should be expanded and rewritten.

Is there agreement that there should be a Names section?

If there is agreement that there should be a Names section, and that the history section should be rewritten for neutrality, then I will provide each editor with a sandbox workspace in which to work on the sections of the article that need work, and then we can compare them.

Are there any other content disputes? Are there any other questions?

Sixth statements by editors (Ukrainian language)

I have no objections to creating a Names section. My own suggestion for the content of such a section would be identical to my suggested content for the paragraph starting Although the name of Ukraine... and ending ...(in 1878, by Mykhailo Drahomanov).

I do object to expanding on history of Ukraine in the article on its language, because History of Ukraine already exists as a separate article. I do also object to expanding on the use of terms Little Russia as toponym and Little Russian as demonym, because Little Russia and Little Russian identity already exist as separate articles. I pointed earlier to the example of a novel published under a title that later became offensive. The article on the novel states for a fact that the title became offensive, and doesn't go into any detail as to why. The detailed explanation of how the term developed its modern connotations appears in the separate article on that term.

The paragraph starting During the century after the 1654 Pereiaslav Agreement... and ending ...long period of steady decline has nothing in it that is directly relevant to Ukrainian language, except for the statement The Russian centre adopted the name <...> Little Russian for the language, which is unreferenced, and likely misplaced: the earliest mention of Little Russan language known to Google Books dates from 1748, the very end of the time period being described. As an alternative to expanding the history section in order to include multiple national points of view, I suggest trimming it down to a minimum, keeping focus on just the language. --Crash48 (talk) 13:09, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

A section on the names can be created, but it doesn't have to. In any case, we should refrain from using primary sources.

Regarding the neutrality of the history section: I don't see different national views. I learned most of what I know about Ukrainian history from American and Swiss-Austrian authors who don't seem to share the POV of any of the nations involved (Polish, Ukrainian, Russian). Since the crucial point seems to be the "colonial" situation of Ukraine as part of the Russian Empire, which I see as necessary context for the use of "Little Russian", I'd suggest to solve the problem of "Little Russian" (and, if you like, other names) first and then see whether history is still a problem. Rsk6400 (talk) 17:17, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Seventh statement by moderator (Ukrainian language)

If the editors agree, I will permit the editing of the article to develop a Names section. Alternatively, I can create a sandbox for each editor to develop a Names section and we can compare them. Is the preference of the editors for development of a Names section in the article, or for its development in sandboxes?

As one editor has pointed out, there is a section on History of Ukraine. Rather than expanding the section on Under Lithuania/Poland, Muscovy/Russia and Austria-Hungary, we can cut that section down to remove the point-of-view material. Do the editors agree on this approach? If so, can this be done by normal editing, in which case I will permit the editing of the article for that purpose? Or do the editors want sandboxes so that they can each develop a trimmed-down section and can compare them? Robert McClenon (talk) 16:59, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Seventh statements by editors (Ukrainian language)

For the "names" section, I prefer the sandbox. But since it was not my idea, I'd rather not write the first draft. Still, I'd like to take part in the process of improving that first draft.

For the section on history, I still don't see any POV issues. And, as I said above, I'd suggest solving the "names" question first. Rsk6400 (talk) 18:30, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Either sandbox or inline editing is fine with me. I agree with the proposal to iron out the names first, and then see if any disagreements on the history remain. --Crash48 (talk) 08:04, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Eighth statement by moderator (Ukrainian language)

At this point, I have created a single sandbox page for the development of the Names section, at Draft:Ukrainian language/Names. We will see whether this works, meaning that we will see whether the draft section expands in an orderly fashion, or whether I need to give each editor their own subpage.

We will defer action on the history for now while we are working on the Names section.

Are there any other content issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 19:33, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Eighth statements by editors (Ukrainian language)

Commenting on this version of the draft: Most of it is original synthesis of primary sources. The claim in the first sentence "[before mid-19th century] the language was usually named Ruthenian or Little Russian" is not really supported by the source. The source only makes the corresponding statement in a specific context, i.e. to specify the language it is talking about. Better have no section on names than that one. Rsk6400 (talk) 18:58, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Ninth statement by moderator (Ukrainian language)

I said that I did not know whether a single sandbox page would work. Creating a single sandbox page at Draft:Ukrainian language/Names did not work, because one editor thinks that the other editor's version is non-neutral.

I am giving each editor their own subpage for their version of the Names section. The two versions will be at Draft:Ukrainian language/Names/Crash48, and at Draft:Ukrainian language/Names/Rsk6400. User:Crash48 has either begun or finished their draft. They may work on it further if they wish. The section for User:Rsk6400 is blank at this time. They may either develop their own preferred version, or they may state that they do not want a Names section. In the latter case, we will discuss whether the current draft should be modified, and can then have an RFC to decide whether to add the Names section to the article.

We will defer action on the history for now while we are working on the Names section.

Are my instructions and questions clear? Are there any other content issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 05:07, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Ninth statements by editors (Ukrainian language)

No, I did not claim that Crash48's draft is non-neutral (see my 8th statement). As stated before (6th statement), I'm neutral regarding the question whether there should be a section on names. But, again as stated before (7th statement), I'd rather not write a draft of my own. I don't know what happened to @Mzajac: since the Names section was at least in part his idea, I think he could be helpful to get us out of this deadlock. Rsk6400 (talk) 18:38, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

I have finished my draft. It appears that there is an insurmountable disagreement on these two specific points:

1. Whether the statement ...began to apply the term Ukrainian to the varieties formerly called Ruthenian and Little Russian in Flier&Graziosi means that prior to the use of the term Ukrainian, the language was usually named Ruthenian or Little Russian;
2. Whether citing primary sources is allowed as illustrative material for a conclusion which is itself cited from secondary sources.

Do we need an RFC to definitively resolve these two points, or does common sense and pointing at WP:PSTS suffice? --Crash48 (talk) 20:39, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Tenth statement by moderator (Ukrainian language)

I was mistaken in my statement about what Rsk6400 wrote about Crash48's section on name. They said that the section consisted largely of synthesis from primary sources. Does anyone else want to write a section on Names of the Language? If there is objection to the section, but no one else is proposing an alternative, the community may have to decide via an RFC.

User:Crash48 says that the conclusion is itself cited from secondary sources. User:Rsk6400 says that it is synthesis from primary sources. Will Crash48 please state what conclusion they are drawing from secondary sources? Will Rsk6400 please identify the text that they say is synthesis from primary sources. We need to know what we are disagreeing about. We may then have to ask the volunteers at the reliable source noticeboard for opinions on sources. Both an RFC and a referral to RSN will wait for now but may happen soon.

Please answer the questions. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:28, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Tenth statements by editors (Ukrainian language)

The conclusion (itself cited from Flier&Graziosi, and illustrated using citations from primary sources) is that the name of Ukraine <...> wasn't applied to the language until the mid-19th century; instead, the language was usually named Ruthenian or Little Russian. --Crash48 (talk) 10:23, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Dear moderator, the whole thing has become too frustrating for me. Once again, you misunderstood my eighth statement. The claim in the first sentence "[before mid-19th century] the language was usually named Ruthenian or Little Russian" is not really supported by the source. The source (Flier & Graziosi) is of course a secondary source. I did not claim that this was original synthesis as you mistakenly claimed in your last statement.

You also didn't understand my first statements. This discussion has failed the moment that Crash48 broke the rule[12], 24 hours after they accepted those rules[13]. The rule says "will be failed", there is no need for the moderator to fail it. And that breaking of the rule was not "soon after" you provided the rules[14] - as you mistakenly stated[15] - but five days after that. Rsk6400 (talk) 09:49, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Zagwe dynasty

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by LeGabrie on 23:48, 7 December 2023 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Zagwe dynasty (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved LeGabrie (talk · contribs) Socialwave597 (talk · contribs) Dispute overview About Ethiopian history. Both the Kingdom of Aksum and the Ethiopian Empire have entries dedicated to their respective polities. The relatively obscure intermediate Zagwe polity is, however, simply called "Zagwe dynasty". First I moved the page to Zagwe Kingdom, which was reverted by another user, arguing that "Zagwe Kingdom" is not the commonly known denomination. I argue on the other hand that there is a difference between the ruling dynasty and the polity it rules over. My first solution: two separate entries. One focuses more on the royal family ("Zagwe dynasty") and another ("Zagwe Kingdom") that discusses the polity. For example, I would drastically shorten the "Islam" section in the "Zagwe dynasty" entry while leaving it intact in the "Zagwe Kingdom" entry. On the other hand I would add a royal succession table to the "Zagwe dynasty" page. Alternatively there may also be just one entry titled "Zagwe Kingdom", focusing on the polity aspect. Calling it "Zagwe dynasty", I feel, would not do it justice. LeGabrie (talk) 23:48, 7 December 2023 (UTC) How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Talk:Zagwe_dynasty#Article_dedicated_to_the_entity How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Brief assessment of the situation Summary of dispute by Socialwave597 Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. I saw that without consensus or discussion, the article was renamed to "Zagwe Kingdom", LeGabrie argued that the dynasty of this polity and the polity itself are two different entities and should have their own separate articles, however he then proceeds to change the name of the article to the "Zagwe Kingdom", a term which no academic source ever refers to the Zagwe as. This political entity is referred to as the "Zagwe Dynasty" by most reliable authorities such as Taddesse Tamrat[16], Haggai Erlich[17], Richard Pankhurst, etc. We need some sources explicitly calling this "Zagwe Kingdom" before changing the title to that name - otherwise that would be original research. There's plenty of sources calling this polity the "Zagwe Dynasty" so I don't see the need to change the title. Per WP:COMMONNAME, the article must be titled the "Zagwe Dynasty". If we want to add content about the royal family of the Zagwe this is the article to do so. Socialwave597 (talk) 17:56, 17 December 2023 (UTC) Zagwe dynasty discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Volunteer Note - The filing editor has not notified the other editor on their user talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:13, 9 December 2023 (UTC) @Robert McClenon: Done. LeGabrie (talk) 09:05, 13 December 2023 (UTC) Zeroth statement by possible moderator (Zagwe) The other editor has not responded. If the other editor does not respond within 24 hours, I will have to close this case as declined. Continue discussion on the article talk page. However, the filing editor says that they want separate articles on Zagwe dynasty and Zagwe Kingdom, and there are articles on both Zagwe dynasty and Zagwe Kingdom, so maybe dispute resolution may not be required. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:37, 17 December 2023 (UTC) Zeroth statements by editors (Zagwe) First statement by possible moderator (Zagwe) There seem to be two intertwined questions. The first is whether there should be one article, Zagwe dynasty, or two articles. The second is what the second article if any should be called. Please read the Horn of Africa ruling by ArbCom and DRN Rule D. Please state whether you wish to take part in moderated discussion subject to that rule, and acknowledging that you are aware that the Horn of Africa region is a contentious topic. Then please answer the two questions listed above. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:15, 18 December 2023 (UTC) First statements by editors (Zagwe) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

John de Lancie

– New discussion.

Filed by EpicTiger87 on 00:35, 11 December 2023 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute John de Lancie (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved EpicTiger87 (talk · contribs) FlightTime (talk · contribs) Meters (talk · contribs) Daniel Case (talk · contribs) Dennis Brown (talk · contribs) Sergecross73 (talk · contribs) City of Silver (talk · contribs) Dispute overview On the John de Lancie page, his role as Discord (from My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic) in the lede was listed in the 2nd paragraph where it lists his "other television roles". I disagreed with this, due to his Discord role being easily his most popular and known role right beside his Q (from multiple Star Trek series) role. His other roles listed under "other television roles" were all much less well known/popular than his roles as Q & Discord. So I found it to make much more sense to list his Discord role alongside his Q role in the first paragraph as one of the two roles he is most well known for. So I edited the page to change this, but that edit was quickly reverted and deputed. (My edit can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_de_Lancie&oldid=1188681811 , note that every contribution from the ip 67.60.186.104 on the article and talk page was mine before I made this account) I started a thread on the matter on the article's talk page. I gave my argument there for my edit, and City of Silver responded. We had a brief back and forth where they stated that my edit would have violated the rule on no original editing. I gave a long response to them explaining my disagreement on that point, that they never directly responded to. Sergecross73 did give responses agreeing with me that my edit would not have violated the original research rule, and stated that the argument should be specifically about where it makes more sense to place the Discord role in the lede. Despite this initial good discussion, there haven't been responses since and no clear consensus on this matter has developed. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? [18] Here is where that discussion was. I stand by all of the arguments I gave there, and would be interested in hearing responses to them (in particular to the long response I gave to City of Silver). Since no clear consensus has been developed on the matter, I would be interested in further discussing this matter with any of the people already involved in that discussion. How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? I also completely understand if those people are busy and why this minor edit dispute would not be their priority, so I also would be interested in other parties looking over the edit & discussion and stating their opinions on this. It would be good for me and others to able develop a consensus for or against my proposed edit, or even for a compromise edit if anybody has ideas for that. Thank you, I look forward to good discussion on this matter that can lead to an agreement. Summary of dispute by FlightTime Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Nothing more to say. I'll let the discussion on the talk page speak for itself. - FlightTime (open channel) 01:00, 11 December 2023 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Meters Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. This is a minor content dispute that the OP is not content to allow the talk page to settle. There has been zero other support for the OP's attempt to move mention of John de Lancie's voice role in a children's cartoon from the second paragraph of the lead (as part of a list of roles) into the first paragraph of the lead (as something the actor is "best known for"). As I said on the article's talk page the consensus seems to be that the voice role of Discord in My Little Pony cartoon does not warrant mention in the first paragraph of the lead. I agree with not including it in the first paragraph. If there's no consensus for the challenged edit, it should stay out. Note that since this was opened another editor, user:Slacker13, has commented on the article's talk page, and is also against the OP's proposed change. Meters (talk) 01:15, 12 December 2023 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Daniel Case Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by Dennis Brown Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. This doesn't belong here and is outside the scope of the board. There is a consensus on the talk page, this one user is trying to take a second bite at the apple. Please close. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 01:02, 11 December 2023 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Sergecross73 I'm just an uninvolved admin who has been trying to guide discussions in the right direction. We've got an newbie editor who is still learning, and experienced editors giving pretty lackluster, lazy responses that aren't exactly helping. Sergecross73 msg me 01:06, 11 December 2023 (UTC) To clarify, my frustration is that most editors have spent more time pointing to a consensus that hasn't really been built yet, or on tangents about OR, when they should be commenting on building an actual consensus. And because the dispute is strictly subjective, all it would take is a simple "I disagree, I don't find it important enough to change because of ____." But no one can seem to muster that up, or if they do, it's lost in a wall of text of tangents, and so this drags on. If it wasn't such a trivial dispute, I'd recommend an RFC to muster up some participants that give some actual input. Sergecross73 msg me 21:37, 11 December 2023 (UTC) Summary of dispute by City of Silver This is a bit frustrating. I have to give a long, detailed answer so I won't be (apparently) accused of being "lazy" but what if I don't have a long, detailed answer? Because I very much do not want to come off like I'm dismissing the formidable amount of work EpicTiger87 has done, and because Sergecross87 has (apparently) described my efforts at being concise and short-winded with what I believe is an unfair little attack, I'll go on and on as best as I can. I believe a performer who regularly works as both an on-camera and a voice actor can usually not have a voice performance be considered one of their most recognizable. There are exceptions but I really don't believe John de Lancie is one. I wasn't convinced by EpicTiger87's arguments, all of which I read and considered more than once and all of which I concluded are not compliant with our policy that says we cannot source article text to original research. There's an argument to be made that EpicTiger87 has kinda/sorta claimed that OR is to some extent not in play here, or can be overridden. I still believe it entirely governs this dispute. John de Lancie's most famous work is as Q, a recurring character from several Star Trek franchise shows. Nobody is disputing that. While I believe that nothing he's done has been anywhere near as significant as Q, I believe his second-most famous performance came in a four-episode arc of the prestige TV drama Breaking Bad, where he played a vital character in a storyline whose twist is, arguably, the most shocking in American television history. That's my opinion and if article content is not affected by it, that's fine. This is also me saying quite literally nothing about de Lancie's work on My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic. By all accounts it's some of the finest, most beloved voice acting in its part of our popular culture. (Does it matter that, while I was discussing this on there, I actually tracked down and watched several clips from it of de Lancie's performances? Before this I'd never seen a single second of that show.) Whether or not we should be here, here we are so why don't we get closure from an uninvolved mediator? While I strongly dispute Sergecross73's (apparent) criticism of my participation, I agree that not everyone has done a great job plainly stating where they stand. City of Silver 20:30, 11 December 2023 (UTC) Hello, I appreciate the response. To briefly respond to your points here on popularity, my position is that while Q is clearly less popular overall compared to Discord, Discord's popularity is significantly higher than and closer to Q's than the minor roles listed. Therefore, top billing alongside Q is more accurate than lumping him in with more minor roles. I still strongly disagree on the idea that is Breaking Bad performance is anywhere close to as popular as Discord. His Breaking Bad character was still a minor one in contrast to being famous & memorable consistently recurring characters in their shows like Discord & Q. I'm willing to bet most Breaking Bad fans think of Donald Margolis as just "Jane's Dad" who had a great minor performance but would not think much of them beyond that. While most MLP fans probably consider Discord one of the star characters of that show and bring him up much more. And Discord being at least 15 times more searched according to Google Trends strongly suggests that my suspicions are correct about this. I understand you disagree with the above and that's totally reasonable. Unless there is more you would like to add in response on that, I think we have both aired our perspectives there for others to judge. However, I have some clarifying questions about your stance on the original research issue. You have argued (correctly imo) in favor of Q remaining listed as de Lancie's best known role based on your intuition & evidence that can't actually be used as a source listed in the article. I have argued in favor of Discord being added to that sentence, also based on my intuition & evidence that can't actually be used as a source listed in the article. So I quite don't understand what your standard on the original research policy is. If my Discord edit would be violating original research policy, then I don't see how the current Q claim is not also violating that policy (let alone all of the other pages on actors that also list specific roles as being their "most well-known"). The standard you seem to be setting here is that claiming something as an actor's "most well-known role" is something that requires evidence from reliable sources, but I can't see any precedent for that being the case and it contradicts your defense of the Q claim. And if I granted that that standard is correct, then I would also have to consider the Q claim original research. EpicTiger87 (talk) 21:46, 11 December 2023 (UTC) I tried my best. My first message here is not perfect, obviously, but I did what I could. In response to my effort to build consensus via policy and to disprove implications of laziness by being as detailed as I could, the same user who (apparently) attacked me for being lazy is now attacking me for (no apparently about this) going off on tangents about the policy that backs up what I'm saying, not building consensus when literally every message I've typed out states where I stand and why, and, uh, typing too much? I don't even know. Another response was the original poster making more arguments that I've repeatedly said I do not buy per a policy I now don't even feel fucking comfortable linking or mentioning any more. Please keep that mention of Q where it is per WP:OBVIOUS, if not its letter than its spirit. I retract anything else contentious I've said and I think the article should be written however EpicTiger87 wants it. I have no faith that further contributions from me here will make a positive difference so I'm out. Again, I tried. City of Silver 22:31, 11 December 2023 (UTC) John de Lancie discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Note: I was unable to deliver a notice to Daniel Case, as their talk page is semi-protected and I do not yet have the ability to edit semi-protected pages. If anyone here could deliver the notice to them, that would be great.EpicTiger87 (talk) 06:56, 11 December 2023 (UTC) Done Meters (talk) 01:02, 12 December 2023 (UTC) I agree with City_of_silver. Moving the Discord info to the top is unnecessary and reads like a non-neutral marketing tactic. Separately from this, the article contains a significant amount of original/non-source verifiable and irrelevant information like: "In 1962, de Lancie performed in a high school production of William Shakespeare's Henry V." My inclination would be to significantly edit out all of the superfluous content. Slacker13 (talk) 00:43, 12 December 2023 (UTC) I responded to this on the talk page here. EpicTiger87 (talk) 01:33, 12 December 2023 (UTC) Zeroth statement by moderator (de Lancie) I am trying to determine whether moderated discussion is in order. Please read DRN Rule A. I will comment on one editor's statement. They said: here we are so why don't we get closure from an uninvolved mediator? If they are asking me to provide closure in the sense of making a binding decision, that is not the role of a mediator. If they are asking me to assist the editors in reaching compromise or in establishing consensus, I am willing to assist. The purpose of moderated discussion, or mediation, is to improve the encyclopedia article. So I am asking each editor whether they want to take part in moderated discussion, subject to the rules, and one more question. The question is: What part of the article do you want to change, or what part of the article do you want to leave the same that another editor wants to change? I will open moderated discussion if at least two editors want it, and if they have different content objectives. (If the only editors who want to participate in moderated discussion have the same content objective, then I will close the discussion.) Robert McClenon (talk) 06:53, 12 December 2023 (UTC) Zeroth statements by editors (de Lancie) I have throughly explained the edit I want to be made on both this discussion and the article talk page, which is to move the lede mention of his Discord role from his "other television roles" in the 2nd paragraph, to the first paragraph listed alongside the Q role. Here is the revision from when my edit was briefly up before it was reverted. I will be interested in taking part in a moderated discussion if anybody is interested. EpicTiger87 (talk) 07:21, 12 December 2023 (UTC) Hello, If any outsiders who have not participated in this discussion would like to talk about this, I would be more than happy to. EpicTiger87 (talk) 09:33, 15 December 2023 (UTC) First statement by moderator (de Lancie) It appears that none of the other editors besides the filing editor are agreeing to moderated discussion. If anyone else wants to take part in moderated discussion, please answer the question stated above, about what you want to change in the article, or leave the same. It appears that this is a one-against-many issue, and that the filing editor wants to include a role in the lede paragraph that the other editors think is not sufficiently important for the lede. Is that correct? If so, there is at least rough consensus against the filing editor. The filing editor has two choices. The first is to initiate a Request for Comments. The second is to accept that they are in the minority. I will close this case within 48 hours unless another editor requests moderated discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:23, 17 December 2023 (UTC) First statements by editors (de Lancie) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Harry Reid International Airport

– New discussion.

Filed by Sunnya343 on 21:53, 14 December 2023 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Harry Reid International Airport (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Sunnya343 (talk · contribs)
• Ericm2031 (talk · contribs)
• Jakemhurst (talk · contribs)
• Reywas92 (talk · contribs)
• RobH2488 (talk · contribs)
• A. B. (talk · contribs)
• Rlrcoasterdude21 (talk · contribs)
• ScottishFinnishRadish (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I replaced the Airlines and Destinations table in the article with a summary of the airport's operations, and I believe my edit abides by the consensus from this Request for Comment. However, other editors have expressed opposition.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:Harry Reid International Airport#Stop Removing the Airlines and Destinations List

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

I seek guidance on what to do with the Airlines and Destinations table in accordance with the RFC consensus.

Summary of dispute by Ericm2031

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Jakemhurst

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Reywas92

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I don't understand why Sunnya343 is bringing this here. They are the only person in favor of deleting this information from the article, while Jakemhurst, Ericm2031, RobH2488, A. B., Rlrcoasterdude21, VenFlyer98, and I all expressed opposition to deviating from longstanding practice of listing destinations in this article, just like every other airport article. Sunnya343 failed to gain consensus for their deletions yet continues to edit war on the article to impose their utterly pointless content removal and bring this to another forum and waste my time. The RFC closure did not decide that these sections should just be deleted, rather that sources are required, just like anything else. Keeping this table, which does have sources, is consistent with that. Reywas92^Talk 14:48, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by RobH2488

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The only thing I have to say is that I agree with Reywas92 And A. B. on what they just stated. The Airlines and Destinations table have on what I believe are reliable secondary sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RobH2488 (talk • contribs) 07:17, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by A. B.

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There have been multiple discussions about airport destination lists over the years:

1. Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Airports/Archive 15#Request for comments on the Airlines and destinations tables: "Should we get rid of the Airlines and destinations tables in airport articles?"
   • December 2016. Initiated by Sunnya343. Multiple options were offered. The preference was for "Option 3: Keep the tables, but something should be done with regards to references and complying with WP:VERIFY."
2. Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Airports/Archive 17#RfC about references for the "Airlines and destinations" tables.
   • August 2017. Initiated by Sunnya343
   • Decision: "references must be provided, and 'searchable' websites are suitable for such references."
3. Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 141#RFC: Should Wikipedia have lists of transportation service destinations?: "Should we update WP:NOTDIR to explicitly state that lists of transportation service destinations are outside the scope of Wikipedia?"
   • February 2018
   • RfC followed the community decision to delete dedicated articles listing airline destinations
   • RfC conclusion: "There is a clear consensus against the proposed addition to WP:NOTDIR."
4. Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 167#Airport destination lists
   • Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 167#RfC: Ariport destination tables: "Should tabular listings of destinations in airport articles be removed and replaced with prose descriptions?"
     • June 2021
     • RfC withdrawn by nominator in the face of strong support for retaining lists
5. Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Airports/Archive 19#RFC on Maps and Airline & Destination Tables "Should we consolidate mainline and regional carriers in 'Airline and Destination Tables'?"
   • Implicit acceptance of destination lists during this discussion of how to organize them.
   • April 2022
6. Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 187#RfC on the "Airlines and destinations" tables in airport articles: "Should airport articles include tables that display all the airlines that serve the airport and the cities they fly to?"
   • October 2023. Initiated by Sunnya343.
   • By my count: 32 wanted to keep the lists, 21 to delete and 9 said something else (of these 9, more tilted negative than positive). I see this as a decent but not overwhelming majority to keep once you factor in the "something elses". (see User:A. B./Sandbox20 for tabulation)
   • The closing admin judged the policy arguments made for deletion outweighed the majority for retention.

• • • To clarify, he judged that adequate sources are required (just like anything else), not that tables should be removed in general. Reywas92^Talk 15:05, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Talk page discussion for this dispute:

• Talk:Harry Reid International Airport#Stop Removing the Airlines and Destinations List

All currently listed destinations cite what appear to be reliable references (a mix of primary and secondary).

• Harry Reid International Airport#Airlines and destinations

--A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 02:50, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Rlrcoasterdude21

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Harry Reid International Airport discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Zeroth statement by possible moderator (HRIA)

I am ready to act as the mediator if the parties want to resolve this dispute by moderated discussion. Please read DRN Rule A. In looking at this dispute, I am not sure that moderated discussion is what is needed. Different editors are citing different RFCs as establishing different consensus.

The most recent RFC appears to have one that was opened in October 2023 and closed on 18 November 2023 by admin User:ScottishFinnishRadish. I am adding them to the list of parties in this dispute. This was a potentially controversial close, because a counting of votes might have resulted in No Consensus , but the closing admin found that the policy arguments to delete lists of airlines and destinations were stronger than the policy arguments to retain these lists.

The filing editor deleted the airlines and destinations tables, citing the 18 November 2023 RFC closure. Other editors are disagreeing, often citing earlier RFCs. My assessment of the situation is that the other editors should either accept the result of the RFC, or request closure review of the RFC at WP:AN. I am willing to conduct moderated discussion, but I will be viewing the 18 November RFC closure as establishing consensus.

I would like each of the editors to state whether they are requesting moderated discussion in accordance with DRN Rule A, or whether they are requesting closure review, or whether they have some other request. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:37, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Zeroth (?) statement by ScottishFinnishRadish

If there is an objection to the closure, that should be raised per the standard procedure, otherwise that consensus overrides the local consensus at the article. Further, the reason we don't just count votes is made very obvious in that RFC. All of the quotes I used to support the common thread in the discussion (articles should include such tables when including a table would be due... all the usual guidelines relating to weight and reliable referencing (I'm thinking specifically of WP:BURDEN and WP:ONUS) should still be considered... tables are fine if they are based in secondary sources... WP:V, WP:RS and WP:NPOV can cover relevant concerns... If it is unmaintained / not well sourced - it should be either repaired or deleted just like every other wikipedia article.) were from editors with a bolded !vote supporting keeping tables. Reading and weighing statements is far more important than counting the bolded words. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:07, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

First statement by possible moderator (HRIA)

I am asking for clarification of at least one issue. Some editors are objecting to the removal of the lists of airlines and destinations. The lists were removed because the 18 November 2023 RFC closure stated that lists of airlines and destinations must be verifiable against reliable sources, and the editor removing them said that the lists were not compliant. What I would like to clarify is whether the editors who object to the removal are saying that the lists should have been kept because they were properly sourced and therefore were compliant, or whether they are disagreeing with the closure of the RFC. If there is disagreement with the close of the RFC, then close review should be requested at WP:AN.

I am also asking the closer of the RFC whether my interpretation of the close is correct, that airline and destination lists must be sourced, so that such lists should be kept if they are properly sourced, and may be deleted if they are not properly sourced. User:ScottishFinnishRadish - Is my interpretation of your close of the RFC correct?

Each editor who agrees with removal of the lists should state why they agree with removal. Each editor who disagrees with removal of the lists should state why they disagree. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:55, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Specifically, independent, reliable, secondary sources to demonstrate they meet WP:DUE. Do I need to move this to my own statement section? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 04:59, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

User:ScottishFinnishRadish - I don't enforce the requirement to post in your own section as long as there isn't back-and-forth discussion. So your answer is all right. Thank you for answering the question. Robert McClenon (talk) 12:47, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

First statements by editors (HRIA)

• I believe the table goes against the consensus from the latest RFC for the following reasons. Every reference in the table is a primary source: a timetable, WP:PRIMARYNEWS (e.g. [19]), or a press release. Secondary sources do not exist for most of the routes, like the ordinary flights from Las Vegas to hub cities. Therefore, we're giving them undue weight. The closing summary also mentions how tables without independent secondary sourcing go against certain parts of WP:NOT. We're not supposed to maintain a database of the airport's current destinations or function as a news service that keeps track of every change to the list. Now, I definitely believe we should talk about the airport's current operations in the article. That's why I replaced the table with a summary of key details, like which airlines are based at the airport and what the top destinations are.

  Of the discussions listed by User:A. B., only one is relevant: the one from 18 November 2023. That's because consensus can change. Also, I wrote the following in the introduction to that RFC: "In 2017, we had two RfCs at WikiProject Airports on this topic: one that determined we should keep the tables, and one on how to reference them. However, I am concerned the results of those RfCs may be cases of WP:CONLEVEL. I think it would be useful to hear more opinions from the wider Wikipedia community [at the Village Pump]." Sunnya343 (talk) 16:54, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator (HRIA)

The issue appears to be whether the lists of airlines and destinations are attributed to reliable secondary sources. The editor who deleted the lists of airlines and destinations says that those lists are attributed only to primary sources and so are not permitted in the article. Am I interpreting the issue correctly? The editors who oppose the deletion of the lists and support the restoration of the lists have not provided an explanation. Will the editors who want to restore the lists please explain? Robert McClenon (talk) 06:49, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Second statements by editors (HRIA)

• The moderator's interpretation is correct. Though I wanted to add one thing if it's ok. One might argue that, while primary sources are the only type of reference currently used in the table, secondary sources can be found and used instead. I have indeed found secondary sources - but only for a very small fraction of the destinations. For example, the Korean Air route to Seoul is notable for being the only direct flight from Las Vegas to Asia, and I believe this would be considered a secondary source for it: [20]. Nonetheless, this is hardly the amount of coverage by independent secondary sources required to demonstrate that the entire list of flights that are operational as of today's date meets WP:DUE and therefore should be in the article. Sunnya343 (talk) 16:53, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

• Let's look at what our policies and guidelines say:

• From the WP:PRIMARY section of our WP:NOR policy:

1. "Primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them…"
2. "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation."
   • No interpretation required in this case.
3. "A primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge…"
   • Straigthforward: planes go where the sources say they go..
4. "Do not analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so."
   • No interpretation involved.
5. "Do not base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large passages on them."
   • These lists make up a small portion of their articles.
6. "Do not add unsourced material from your personal experience, because that would make Wikipedia a primary source of that material…"
   • Not applicable.

• From the "Vendor and e-commerce sources" (WP:VENDOR) section of our WP:RS guideline:

• "Although the content guidelines for external links prohibit linking to "Individual web pages that primarily exist to sell products or services", inline citations may be allowed to e-commerce pages such as that of a book on a bookseller's page or an album on its streaming-music page, in order to verify such things as titles and running times."

• This use of primary sources verify simple, basic information as described above

• From the "Self-published and questionable sources as sources on themselves" (WP:SELFSOURCE) of our WP:RS guideline:

"Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as the following criteria are met:"

1. "The material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim."
2. "It does not involve claims about third parties (such as people, organizations, or other entities)."
3. "It does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject."
4. "There is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity."
5. "The Wikipedia article is not based primarily on such sources."

These lists are not based on "questionable sources" however you could possibly construe that they are "self-published". If so, these lists meet all 5 requirements.

• From the "Deprecated sources" (WP:RSDEPRECATED) section of our WP:RS guideline:

• "A number of sources are deprecated on Wikipedia. That means they should not be used, unless there is a specific consensus to do so. Deprecation happens through a request for comment, usually at the reliable sources noticeboard. It is reserved for sources that have a substantial history of fabrication or other serious factual accuracy issues…"

The recent RFC does not meet the above requirements for allowable deprecation since there is no substantial history of accuracy issues with these sources.

--A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 18:26, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

It looks like you'd like to challenge the closure. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:14, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

ScottishFinnishRadish, I think so?

Based on a deep dive into our policies and guidelines, I think the wrong outcome resulted. At the same time, I'm not sure how to proceed:

• Were I still an admin I would have closed it differently but it was very close and I don't criticize you. I certainly think your closure was reasonable given the arguments the "oppose" editors gave at the time. Your task was to read the room.
  • The problem is "oppose" !voters didn't give very good policy-based comments.
• Is there a statute of limitations for RfCs?
• Is challenging the closure the best way to deal with this?

• • If so, where do I start?

I don't edit aviation topics. I went to the Las Vegas airport article to figure out airline service and that's where I first learned of this. Having worked on list article and primary source issues before, it struck me that something wasn't right.

Thanks, --A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 19:53, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

WP:CLOSECHALLENGE covers it. Basically it's just a post at WP:AN. I strongly that you create separate sections for involved editors and uninvolved editors if you do open a discussion on the close. That isn't covered in CLOSECHALLENGE, but it's starting to become the norm. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:29, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! --A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 22:35, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Third statement by moderator (HRIA)

The RFC, which was closed by User:ScottishFinnishRadish, has established consensus for airline articles, that lists of airlines and destinations must be supported by reliable secondary sources. User:A. B. is disagreeing with that conclusion, saying that the information published by airports and airlines are reliable primary sources, and should be usable. DRN is not the forum to challenge the closure of an RFC, and the RFC is recent and is the rough consensus at this time. As SFR has pointed out, a challenge to the close of an RFC should be done at WP:AN.

Are there any other content issues about the article, other than the inclusion of the lists of airlines and destinations? If there are any other content issues, please state what they are. If the only issue involves a challenge to the RFC, I will put this thread on hold when the close challenge is posted, and will leave it on hold until the close challenge is resolved. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:14, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Third statements by editors (HRIA)

• I have no other issues with the content of the article at this time. Sunnya343 (talk) 16:01, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

La Salida

– New discussion.

Filed by WMrapids on 20:48, 18 December 2023 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• La Salida (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• WMrapids (talk · contribs)
• NoonIcarus (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Multiple academic, media and NGO sources say that the goal of the La Salida campaign was to remove Venezuelan president Nicolás Maduro from office. The other user has prevented this information from being present in the article for over a month. In an attempt to avoid edit warring, more sources were provided over the period of time, though those sources were continuously dismissed by the said user.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:La_Salida#The_goal_was_to_remove_Maduro

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Having additional users help decide on whether inclusion of the goal to remove President Nicolás Maduro is appropriate or not.

Summary of dispute by NoonIcarus

This request was previously filed on 2 December and virtually nothing as changed, so I'll copy the statement that I provided then:

The article's dispute boils down to the wording in the lead about the movement's goal. The original wording was a quote translated from the Spanish version: "whose objective was to 'find a peaceful, democratic and constitutional solution to the government of Nicolás Maduro'". WMrapids preferred version is "in an effort to remove Venezuelan president Nicolás Maduro from office" or variations thereof.
Proposals have included "in an effort to end to the Bolivarian Revolution prevalent since 1998", "in an effort to seek [Venezuelan president Nicolás] Maduro's resignation", or simply avoiding stating the goal altogether. The proposals have not been satisfactory to WMrapids for the moment.

--NoonIcarus (talk) 09:21, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

La Salida discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

First statement by moderator (La Salida)

I am ready to moderate this dispute. Please read DRN Rule A. It appears that the issue is about the wording of the party's goal. The policy that is critical is verifiability. The best wording is probably the wording that is the best translation of the party's own statement in Spanish of its goal. Will each editor state what they think that the English article should say, and any alternatives that they think are acceptable? Will each editor please also explain why think that their version is preferred, and what is wrong with any other versions? Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:39, 20 December 2023 (UTC)